{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Kimberly Logan","text":"Almost 85% of memories that get written Are accessing read back over 30 days later. But if I decide I wanna switch models, for any type of reason. or try a different type of Harness I shouldn't have to start over. that no one has to choose. And where they start doesn't need to be where they end.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:29","seconds":29,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"A controlled study published three weeks ago moved agent memory between models. and found something uncomfortable. The notes your agent wrote about you can swing its accuracy by thirteen points. or sometimes more. in either direction. purely based on which model reads them back. We need memory to be portable. So avoid lock-in. Welcome to Chain of Thought. It's great to see you all. I am your host, Conor Bronsdon. Joining me today is Kimberly Logan. Kimberly is head of product at the Walrus Foundation. Huge shout out to Walrus.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":2,"time":"0:59","seconds":59,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"For sponsoring this season of Chain of Thought. It's been a pleasure having them. And Kimberly is building the memory layer on top of a decentralized storage network that's been running in production since March of 2025. Kimberly. So good to have you on.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:13","seconds":73,"speaker":"Kimberly Logan","text":"Thanks so much for having me, Conor. I'm really excited to talk about what we're building and why we're building it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":4,"time":"1:19","seconds":79,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Same here because I think Agent memory is such an important part of the ecosystem today, But Let's start by setting the stage a bit. Kimberly, why is agent memory so important? And what prompted Walrus to take it on as a a memory product?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":5,"time":"1:36","seconds":96,"speaker":"Kimberly Logan","text":"So agentic memory is important because Context is what makes it Data valuable and while we have seen the companies that are Creating the models themselves, building longer and longer context windows. Mm. That is only as good as when you are in that provider for the context window that you have. Those million tokens are gonna get you pretty far. But if I decide I wanna switch models, for any type of reason. or try a different type of Harness I shouldn't have to start over. And as you rightfully pointed out at the top of this, The context swings how valuable your data becomes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":6,"time":"2:23","seconds":143,"speaker":"Kimberly Logan","text":"when you switch. And so we sat down when we were thinking about How do we address this problem? Because we heard it from our builders, from our users, and from our partners, that this is where they were getting stuck. People wanted to be able to use agents and use the technology but they were overly constrained. And so When we looked at the unique properties of The protocol today, we were sitting on essentially the perfect gold mine. for solving this problem. Because it is built on top of a decentralized storage protocol, We were able to make that infrastructure useful to people.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":7,"time":"3:09","seconds":189,"speaker":"Kimberly Logan","text":"By building Walrus memory. to allow them to carry their agents' memories with them. and remove the concept of of them being locked into whatever provider they started with.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":8,"time":"3:24","seconds":204,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Quick disclosure, Walrus Memory sponsored not just this season, but obviously this episode.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":9,"time":"3:30","seconds":210,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I think this is a very apt moment to be talking about this because You know, as we're recording this, we're a couple days out from some big announcements for Walrus that we're going to be talking about a little later in this episode. And we've also Seen multiple major model announcements pop up where you know Cloud Opus 5.5 and then Sonnet 5.5 both just dropped in the last what week, week and a half. And today, as we're talking, uh OpenAI dev day is happening, and it sounds like Sol 6.1 is accidentally dropping while they have also delayed Astra 6.1.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":10,"time":"4:04","seconds":244,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So Depending on those models, you may want to adjust where you're spending time. Uh you may be really excited by DeepSeek V1 Flash and want to be using uh a more open layer. And if you have gotten locked into you know, the chat GPT system or the Anthropic. Ecosystem. or another ecosystem There is just simply data that you're going to lose, and your models will not be as accurate when you try to switch over. Like, yes, I know there's some import features that have been set up, but. There's so much rich context and memory that is set kind of locked into these systems.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":11,"time":"4:41","seconds":281,"speaker":"Kimberly Logan","text":"Yeah. I I completely agree with that and the problem is not solved with an import function either. because that is a point in time. solution. That is not how real workflows happen and that's not How we see Our users and builders trying to create today. They want to be able to use different models for different use cases and different purposes. They're not setting something up and then moving it over and then Continuing on. I personally use different models for different types of work. Just in my own day to day.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":12,"time":"5:20","seconds":320,"speaker":"Kimberly Logan","text":"And we also know that are Users want to be able to take The Walrus Memory Solution and embed it into their own products with their own agents. that they're creating so that no one has to choose. And where they start doesn't need to be where they end.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":13,"time":"5:42","seconds":342,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Totally. We've talked to folks on this show at the enterprise level who For example, Fergal Reid at Intercom and FinAI talked to us earlier this year about. basically getting off of OpenAI for certain workflows. And saving $250,000 a month by switching it to open models for these different workflows that he was running. for their customer support agents. But when you do that, it's a ton of work. And as an individual dev, I see this as well. I'm using Codex, I'm using Cloud Code. But I've also got a cheap cursor subscription right now.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":14,"time":"6:16","seconds":376,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I've got an open code Go subscription. I'm using OpenRouter for some stuff. I've got Jev running as a classifier on some of my emails. There are all these models and classifiers that are interacting. I need to be able to easily port information between them. And this gets down to the value prop that I think walrus memory is providing. But There is quite a bit of conversation around the primitives here. Why aren't you positioning against memory companies like Mem0 or Lang Mam, it feels like Water Memory is more about the storage permit of here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":15,"time":"6:50","seconds":410,"speaker":"Kimberly Logan","text":"While we did build on top of the storage protocol. I do not believe that we are primarily solving a pure memory. Problem? in the opportunity space for us. is much bigger. than memory alone. And so I don't consider it Uh Apples to apples. comparisons so I don't publicly benchmark or position it. in that way. Because We are building and see opportunities. to create more ways for people to own and use their data. and share it with others. in the way that works for them. and to allow companies to verify What that memory and that data is across company boundaries.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":16,"time":"7:04","seconds":424,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Mm. Hmm.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":17,"time":"7:44","seconds":464,"speaker":"Kimberly Logan","text":"And that goes way beyond. Simply managing your memory or creating better harness plug-ins to allow you to move. beyond Coding. different coding agents. And in fact, a lot of our users aren't even using it. to build coding agents. It's only maybe 30% of the actual usage that we have. is is for switching coding agents. People are using it for everything. From it. creating long running Study aids. to building trading agents that trade on their behalf and build portfolios.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":18,"time":"8:24","seconds":504,"speaker":"Kimberly Logan","text":"to tracking security incidents and comparing production snapshots. And so I think that our opportunity landscape is much broader. than some of the more targeted memory offerings.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":19,"time":"8:39","seconds":519,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I would love to understand this a bit more. Where do you see this infrastructure layer that you've built with Walrus Memory going in the coming months?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":20,"time":"8:49","seconds":529,"speaker":"Kimberly Logan","text":"So what do what do people need to To feel confident about where their data is and where it's going. First of all, they need to know. that it's going to be owned by them forever. They need to control it. They need to choose who accesses it and where. And they need a way to verify it and it needs to work across Dick trust list. uh boundaries. because as we look to a more agentic world where agents are going to be doing more and more things on our behalf.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":21,"time":"9:21","seconds":561,"speaker":"Kimberly Logan","text":"We the things they can do today. we c we would like them to be able to do more, but we need to be able to do it in a way that we feel confident that it's safe and we can prove what happened. as well. Um But We have we're building the infrastructure to make that possible. across many different Industries and use cases. And so, concretely, we're going to be thinking about building more entry points for people. continuing to make it more performant and more robust. and adding in additional verification functionality that's workflow-based.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":22,"time":"9:59","seconds":599,"speaker":"Kimberly Logan","text":"because we're seeing people deploy agents in a workflow. Cut. context for for enterprise versus Just more uh one-off types of use cases. The vast majority of our users are using our products for long running workflows. Uh as well. And Almost 85% of memories that get written Are accessing read back over 30 days later. And so we feel confident that we're building for long running. consequential workflows, not just spin up, tear down. uh types of use cases.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":23,"time":"10:38","seconds":638,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"This is obviously a through line for the show, this idea of having great data. curating that data. and ensuring that you build this contextual Moat. You know, Richmond Alake came on the show earlier this year and called Agent Memory the last battleground in the AI stack. Jerry Liu from Alma Index argued that the frameworks era has ended because context is the new mode. You know, we've been talking about context hardnesses recently. And I think it's fascinating to see how Walrus is enabling This evolving contextual memory harness.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":24,"time":"11:16","seconds":676,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"for its users. Can you maybe talk me through a bit of an example of what one of those longer running workflows looks like when it is interacting with the primitive uh of the memory and data storage that you developed.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":25,"time":"11:32","seconds":692,"speaker":"Kimberly Logan","text":"Sure, so I'm going to select some of our Mm-hmm. agentic. Um trading workflows that we're seeing. So People want their accumulated knowledge to keep working. For them. Because rebuilding things Costs time, energy. Any tension? And so what we are seeing is people embedding Walrus memory in with their agents from the day that they creating them. Sharing using that delegate key. to accumulate knowledge. for that agent. And then the as the agent goes on throughout its activities of trading or gathering other information. What are the other business rules?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":26,"time":"12:19","seconds":739,"speaker":"Kimberly Logan","text":"The it has been asked to do. It logs that data encrypted. with those memories back to Walrus through Walrus memory. And so we're seeing people's agents become more intelligent over time. and remember things Mm more efficiently. And so in cases where are we even have a customer that's Create offered this embedded knowledge. to get agents started out of the box. We're seeing it become cheaper. For agents to operate and to do so in a more accurate way because they are learning. from other agents as well as business knowledge as as it's long running.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":27,"time":"13:03","seconds":783,"speaker":"Kimberly Logan","text":"And so actually it becomes more and more valuable the longer that it runs. In a case where we have something like security, Instances, we have a user that has it embedded in their day-to-day workflows. They are going to be taking snapshots of what's happening in production, comparing it with code changes, and using it to verify what's changed. to help them do their security analysis. So It's Not only cases where you're making coding more efficient. But any time that you need something to accumulate knowledge over time. and understand how that knowledge has changed and what's applicable and what's not. we're going to get more value from it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":28,"time":"14:44","seconds":884,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Kimberly, how is the Walrus team thinking about the verifiability and trust side of this extremely important data.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":29,"time":"14:55","seconds":895,"speaker":"Kimberly Logan","text":"So Verifiability is key to being able to answer the question of What happened? and when. And for us to be able to trust agents with our data and these AI systems with our data. That's a critical question we have to answer. Right now, AI feels a lot like a black box. We even see that. with a lot of the news stories that have come out. Open AI agent does XYZ thing messing with the government. It we have the hugging face incident that we remember from earlier in the summer.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":30,"time":"15:33","seconds":933,"speaker":"Kimberly Logan","text":"And so If you're putting your data in, you need to be able to be able to answer the question. Of what happened to it. And so that's why the verifiability piece of it is so important to us. in our value prop, but also in terms of making this product available to people because It's hard to get those questions answered, but if you are using Walrus memory, you can because the attestation. lives on the blockchain and because you control the delegate key and access to it, you can choose to share that. With anyone else. That that you want to.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":31,"time":"16:16","seconds":976,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, I think this verifiability piece is really important because Memories may be true at a point in time, but as the context of the business changes, as my personal context changes, As the world changes around us, we may need to adjust the decisions we've made around them. And data is constantly evolving and growing. And just because a fact was true back in March doesn't mean that uh let's say GPU prices are the same as back then. So this verifiability piece is crucial, I think, to allow scalability for this kind of underlying Data permit does.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":32,"time":"16:24","seconds":984,"speaker":"Kimberly Logan","text":"Mm-hmm. Yeah. I completely agree with this and if I even think about what has changed in terms of recallability in In six months of my own life, like my preferences now, and even where I see the product going now. are different now. after I've I've had some months of of it being in market. And so That's W Walrus memory and what we're building Doesn't Just right. The memory. to the blockchain. It does that, but we also have Um a knowledge graph layer that Oh. provides the logic.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":33,"time":"17:04","seconds":1024,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. Yeah, the models are gonna keep hill climbing across a variety of benchmarks. We need to have the domain expertise and the contextual harness to Actually Ensure this is successful when you're trying to apply it to enterprise workflows and elsewhere, to your point. And something else you said that I want to just drill down on very briefly, and this is a bit of a sidebar, but I love that we're seeing blockchain as a technology um come to fruition this digital distribution of data and verifiability. I think it has been so valuable for AI in particular because the scale of how much data we're creating.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":34,"time":"17:30","seconds":1050,"speaker":"Kimberly Logan","text":"to make sure that the recall Is against the freshest memories. All the memories are there, but we also. think that it needs to be usable too. And so while we don't publish memory quality benchmarks. To me, That is a product choice because I believe that good recall quality fast latency, all of that. That isn't something I should be out there bragging about. It's table stakes that anybody should expect to make a quality. Uh memory product work. For them, and so I prefer to let the product speak for itself in terms of the usefulness of it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":35,"time":"18:12","seconds":1092,"speaker":"Kimberly Logan","text":"And I believe that to be competitive in the market, it needs to be useful for people not just portable. But People need to be able to win through expertise, workflow and results. not through necessarily benchmarking competitions. And I have found a lot more value in keeping Uh the product team focused on what people are trying to do and how to make it more usable for them. versus necessarily f focusing on what the latest uh benchmarking quality measuring contest uh looks like.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":36,"time":"18:51","seconds":1131,"speaker":"Kimberly Logan","text":"Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. So I will start by saying that this is the first blockchain company I've ever worked at. I come from traditional software. And I never thought I would work at a blockchain company. Uh but the reason that I came to work at a blockchain company in Phil's Data infrastructure. was because after spending almost 20 years working in traditional software. I saw concerns with how things were going, especially around things like what happens to our data after we put it out there.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":37,"time":"19:26","seconds":1166,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and the autonomous nature of agents. Uh means that this Yeah. Basically, supply chain verifiability. uh that can now be applied to n the knowledge supply chain. And there is so much data being created on the internet today, and that's just going to continue to 10x as we have more and more agents out there doing things for us that we need to track and understand and verify. And so to me, it's very exciting to see The promise of this technology that has been talked about 10. 20 years ago now, come to fruition.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":38,"time":"19:56","seconds":1196,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And Uh It makes me wonder. how Walrus is thinking about the fusion of all this digital you created agent data and then The human data that you are also bringing in. We talked a bit earlier about the access leveling, but. How are you thinking about this data infrastructure? in the kind of next era.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":39,"time":"20:57","seconds":1257,"speaker":"Kimberly Logan","text":"What how much AI generated content is is taking over the internet. Um We're forging ahead with all of these really exciting ambitions and plans and technology for to power an agentic future. Where's the other side of this? And in the past, we might have been more comfortable putting. our data into a centralized system in order to gain Connection with people. We put all of our data into Facebook so that we could connect with our friends. Uh we put published our whole professional history on LinkedIn so that I could meet other like-minded people.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":40,"time":"21:41","seconds":1301,"speaker":"Kimberly Logan","text":"But I was I think that's good idea. Solve the problems that I was seeing. Seeing becoming more and more Prevalent. And so I f I came to Walrus to solve those problems because I believe the decentralized technology and infrastructure. is what is needed. to make AI actually valuable in a human driven world. and to make sure that human people have control and autonomy. In it? In which I think is so critical, especially 'cause Things feel so out of control in a lot of ways. Like, we don't know what's happening, we don't know.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":41,"time":"22:24","seconds":1344,"speaker":"Kimberly Logan","text":"What's being deployed or where it went. So I want to people to have a sense of control and people also includes businesses. the control over their what makes their business run? What makes their proprietary data valuable to them. so that people didn't have to choose. between taking advantage of new technology And knowing what was being done with it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":42,"time":"22:51","seconds":1371,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And Kimberly's not going to brag about it herself, but I I will for her when she says, oh, you know, it's the first blockchain company I've worked at. What she means is she spent seven years at Google before this, along cite other uh pieces of her career as well, but let's just focus on the Google piece. where she led Google searches client infrastructure program management organization. and uh had to understand how reams of data would come together. So I think it's awesome to see folks like yourself who have such a deep background in scaled data.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":43,"time":"23:22","seconds":1402,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Saying, okay. How do we solve this problem for the future, We know that agentic data is only going to continue to increase, assuming that we down this pathway, which Given the value of AI in so many areas, it seems very clear we will. As the Simplicity of using something and the the price of it goes down, the actual usage massively increases. And we see this with roadways, right? You know, when we have three lanes on a highway, it's full, but then we have six lanes, and we're thinking, oh, great, we're gonna have all this space.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":44,"time":"23:45","seconds":1425,"speaker":"Kimberly Logan","text":"Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. And we believe that Hmm. What we're doing goes even beyond What a good access log. can provide. Um because there's many solutions already out there available um for access logs. Um but we believe people should have a record that other people can check. that other other companies Uh regulators users Um and to be able to compare contents against an earlier commitment. Um to detect changes. We also think that though that unchanged doesn't necessarily mean true. So integrity doesn't establish accuracy authorization. or complete.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":45,"time":"23:54","seconds":1434,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"No, more people drive because now there's more space. And we see this, I think, with Jev and classifier models suddenly becoming much more useful. Yeah. Great, it's so much cheaper right now, but that means we're going to use classifiers on everything. And that just means more and more data being created, more stuff that we want to track. um more need for verifiability, more need to be able to control our data. And it seems pretty clear to me that uh a tamper evident memory solution um like what Walrus is building on the data side.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":46,"time":"24:25","seconds":1465,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"can be crucial. For a establishing databases that have Good access logs in the long term, especially as agents start to run amok a bit. And we can look at all the examples this year. to point to why this matters.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":47,"time":"25:26","seconds":1526,"speaker":"Kimberly Logan","text":"capture so We do think though that um We want to be able to have the evidence in order to have frankly, and open and transparent. way to even be able to look at what happened in one.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":48,"time":"25:42","seconds":1542,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I think an exciting part of this is what you're going to be announcing today when this episode comes out. which is the new Walrus console. Can you tell us a bit about what Walrus console is before I spoil the surprise.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":49,"time":"25:49","seconds":1549,"speaker":"Kimberly Logan","text":"Mm-hmm. Yes. I'm so excited for Walrus Console. It is It's solving problems that I've been hearing from builders and users since day one. Walrus Console is all about bringing these awesome properties that we just have been spending the last uh minutes together the talking about to more people. So the properties of portable verifiable programmable access for your data. to more people through a simple to use interface Or MCP connection. to be able to manage your agent memories. your files. and your other information all in one place.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":50,"time":"26:44","seconds":1604,"speaker":"Kimberly Logan","text":"And Walrus Console is not only about what you can do today. But it will be The Front page into Walrus for all of this other functionality, we're going to continue to build. in the future. Um and all the workflows we're going to be in. to enable all of the different ways that you're going to be able to have your agents interact with agent other agents And so we're excited because this is the first step in a long journey of making this technology. accessible to more people because I think for a long time, a lot.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":51,"time":"27:25","seconds":1645,"speaker":"Kimberly Logan","text":"of great blockchain technology has not been accessible to most people. It was just too hard. It's hard to figure out how to configure it. how the blockchain technology itself and how it Operates blobs and their expiration and all that. That's a very high bar to clear and requires lots of education to people. That Is frankly a lot to ask, and we don't think it should be that way anymore because we think that this infrastructure should be available. to everyone um and you shouldn't have to have complex knowledge regarding how the underlying infrastructure is configured or works. It should just work for you from day one.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":52,"time":"28:12","seconds":1692,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And if I understand it correctly. You know, console lets any developer who's using cloud code, codex, et cetera, to build with the walrus data primitive through an API through an MCP inheriting the kind of three default properties of portability. privacy and verifiability that we've been talking about throughout this conversation. Um and is essentially designed to supercharge the ecosystem. uh of builders around Walrus.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":53,"time":"28:24","seconds":1704,"speaker":"Kimberly Logan","text":"Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yes, that's exactly right. And We are going to be sharing more news about exciting partnerships and new use cases. that are building on Walrus that are powered by this new technology in the coming weeks as well.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":54,"time":"28:59","seconds":1739,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"what other key takeaways should folks uh have as they think about potentially building with Walrus memory. and leveraging it in their tools.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":55,"time":"29:09","seconds":1749,"speaker":"Kimberly Logan","text":"I would encourage people to Use Walrus memory beyond their coding agents. The coding agents A Obvious use case, it's built For that, we have treated that as a first class. uh opportunity, but where we have seen people get unique value from the wow moments that we've heard both from like actual end users as well as partners that have reached out to us. is realizing that it can be deployed anytime That your data not forgetting what happened in and accumulating over time. is beneficial Which means it can solve a super large variety of use cases, and I would encourage people.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":56,"time":"29:17","seconds":1757,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Hmm. And I'll say I have been impressed by the engagement of the Walrus Foundation. A Twitter account. for sure as I've interacted with it a bit. Um If I'm someone who's listening to this, and let's say I'm using A personal agent stack. Maybe it's Hermes, maybe it's Openclaw. Maybe I'm starting to use Grokbot or the new Dots that OpenI released How can I use those with Robbox memory and with console.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":57,"time":"29:58","seconds":1798,"speaker":"Kimberly Logan","text":"not to be limited to it. uh and and what seems immediately in in front of them. Um and the second is that like It's a product under very active development. And so the feedback from both our partners on the small and medium business as well as enterprise side. as well as our very active user community. Their feedback directly informs what we build next. And so I would encourage people to. Uh participate in our Okay. community activation events as well as interact with myself and other members of the product team.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":58,"time":"30:35","seconds":1835,"speaker":"Kimberly Logan","text":"Um through Discord, Twitter, or one of our many other channels. Uh because we have built functionality specifically because we have we have heard from people. So Think beyond Coding. And second, work with us to make it even better.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":59,"time":"31:06","seconds":1866,"speaker":"Kimberly Logan","text":"Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh-huh. It works. Today already we support OpenCloud. And NemoClaw out of the box today, and because it is available. through an API. Um or an MCP service. People can Connect. their their personal tooling stack into it as well and I would love to hear from folks about what they're using it for.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":60,"time":"31:41","seconds":1901,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And as we think about the next stage of the Agentic future as I am kind of terming the next year. Uh Six months or a year from now. How do you want console and wall risk memory to be positioned and used as you continue to see new? Uh use cases.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":61,"time":"31:47","seconds":1907,"speaker":"Kimberly Logan","text":"Hmm. Yeah. So I want people to be using it actively as part of managing real workflows that they have. Expect to see people using it. also to manage workflows. with other companies or other users beyond their own like trust boundaries. So I'm gonna in this agentic future that we have. We will go beyond agents only being for personal use and hopefully being able to interact with other humans or other agents beyond Uh our own Particular area, and so I want to see people using it. for multi-tenant, multi-organization. Multi-user types of scenarios, and we're going to be building functionality that makes that easier. to do in the coming months as well.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":62,"time":"32:56","seconds":1976,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And this is where I think Walrus building with verifiability in mind from day one is a huge opportunity because. Multi-agent coordination is a challenge if you're not able to trust the handoffs between agents. We already see challenges in my owned agent fleets. Where, if there's a negative handoff between different model families or different agents, there can be major problems. Whereas if I'm able to verify and have accurate data, they can be much more successful. the coordination effects of that are going to be much more significant.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":63,"time":"33:10","seconds":1990,"speaker":"Kimberly Logan","text":"Totally. Yeah, agree. And Shared records shouldn't depend on one participant's private system or else it will not work in in the future that both you and I are envisioning. But I feel confident that we're laying the foundation now to make that actually feasible at scale for consequential actions. As well as those ones where You know, maybe it only costs me. a dollar, but I'd like to be able to do a lot more than that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":64,"time":"33:30","seconds":2010,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"as we look at Cross team coordination. We're seeing this already of people trying to to coding and coding channels in Slack, for example. Um but increasingly we're starting to see people's personal agents interact with people using their muse agents to communicate and schedule things. OpenCloud agents who are doing work together. Um I've just had my first pitches of independent AI agents pitching me for Work from Islands. I paid an agent $8 to write me an article just as a test and write about it on Substack.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":65,"time":"34:03","seconds":2043,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It was very fun. And I would be stunned if there's not a future where we are all interacting with technology through our agents in many ways and instructing it through voice or text. Maybe thoughts in the future to go out and do things on our behalf, and they will be interacting with other agents. We've seen this sometimes with customer service agents that are calling that now have a voice agent that have set up to answer questions. So I think this is where for me it's really exciting to see The intentionality around not just you know, retaining understanding data, but being able to verify it and Uh only handed off when There has been you know, valid acceptance of that handoff. And so I think that is both a hill to climb and a problem to solve, but like a really exciting future us.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":66,"time":"35:20","seconds":2120,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Uh Kimberly, thank you so much for joining me today. It's been fantastic chatting with you, and thank you for taking us through perspective behind Bobus Memory and the new console launch. Excited to tinker with console. And for folks who are listening, where should they go to check it out and find out more?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":67,"time":"35:38","seconds":2138,"speaker":"Kimberly Logan","text":"Yep, you can We will include the links in the podcast, but you can go to walrus.xyz slash console.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":68,"time":"35:48","seconds":2148,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Fantastic. And I will remind everyone who's listening here that if you made it all the way through this conversation, you clearly loved it. You should definitely be subscribed on your platform of choice. because it really does make a big difference to us. Uh and I I deeply appreciate it. do you have closing thoughts for us around the future of AI agents and uh agent memory?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":69,"time":"36:08","seconds":2168,"speaker":"Kimberly Logan","text":"Yeah, I just Wanna say that this is There's a huge opportunity here. And we're only at the start of it. I know that those of us that live and breathe the technology, it feels like we're very far along in this journey. Um but if we look at the l the larger set of industries that can be brought along and the larger groups of of uh people that can can take value from where we're going. I believe we're really just at the start and so Being putting the guard rails in place now and building the infrastructure.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":70,"time":"36:46","seconds":2206,"speaker":"Kimberly Logan","text":"that will allow for the type of future that we've been talking about. to become A reality for most people versus something that they have to hope to put in later. Now is the time for us to be building and integrating this type of technology. So that we can feel confident in In the agentic future that that's in front of us.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":71,"time":"37:11","seconds":2231,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Absolutely. Kimberly, thank you so much for joining me and super excited to keep building the Agentic Future with you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan","episode":77,"guid":"0541426f-9c73-4cd5-b5a0-1d02ab4d8f1c","episodeTitle":"Switching Models Shouldn't Mean Starting Over | Walrus Protocol's Kimberly Logan","publishedAt":"2026-10-07","segmentIndex":72,"time":"37:14","seconds":2234,"speaker":"Kimberly Logan","text":"Yeah. Great, thank you so much.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/77-switching-models-shouldnt-mean-starting-over-walrus-protocols-kimberly-logan/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"five lines of code change, we can argue about for hours. Five hundred lines. You know, it's usually looks good to me. You only live once, so let's just get this change in. When I hear people say, Oh, there should be a human in the loop, I'm like, Okay, but if you're not helping the human in the loop, you're really doing them a disservice and you're probably being a bit naive.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:23","seconds":23,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"An engineer producing thousands of pull requests can look extraordinary on a dashboard. Another producing a handful can look expensive. Deciding which one is doing valuable work takes more than just PRs merged. Joining me today to talk about it is Andrea Malagodi, CTO at Sonar, which provides AI code verification and governance for shipping code with confidence. Andrea, how are you feeling about software engineering today? And it's great to see","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":2,"time":"0:47","seconds":47,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"Uh thank you very much for having me. Happy to be here. Um what do I feel about software engineering today? I think lately um All the focus is on numbers and statistics, token maxing, etc. And maybe somewhere along the line, have we maybe forgotten that software engineering is also a craft? Right? It's something that actually takes time to learn, it takes experience. Uh some of us have had to go through a few incidents over the years to actually get some benefits of learnings, etc. And AI is, you know, a set of tools that are Incredible, uh amazing, can do wonderful things.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:24","seconds":84,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"But it also takes a craft to learn how to use them and apply them. in a way that gets great outcomes. Uh and I think right now industry in general Is try to find out like how do I actually attribute the cost and the investment I'm making. uh to outcomes um I don't think anybody has figured out the silver bullet answer here. But I think all of us are trying to look at different aspects of the data that we get and that we can see. To try to make sense out of the information we're getting and try to figure out where we should invest. and where we should potentially pull back or modify a little bit the approach.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":4,"time":"2:03","seconds":123,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I think that's a really great point because we all get a little number obsessed sometimes and there is so much change happening right now. Within AI and within software engineering in general. And I would be remiss if I didn't give a quick thank you to our sponsors for this episode for helping us navigate that change. Svix, Walrus Memory, Inngest, our seasoned presenting sponsor, Chain of Thought, G2i.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":5,"time":"2:25","seconds":145,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"But as we continue to explore the craft of software engineering. the numbers behind it as well as we explore how AI tools Can vastly impact the space and have, frankly, changed it massively over the last year or two. I'm Wondering, Andrea, from your perspective, How do you think engineers should be learning about the craft today? You mentioned that in your opening statement here. That there is a lot of learning to be done. We can't just rely on these tools, we can't just look at the numbers. What should engineers be thinking about as they try to learn the space?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":6,"time":"2:58","seconds":178,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"Yeah, I mean the I think I guess there's two Dimensions of this, which is the one on the individual engineer, where I think we've gone from, you know. somewhat prompting to using skills, lots of other um instruments to try to instrument the AI to come out with the best outcomes. You know, at the rapid pace that we can, and obviously at a reasonable price. So engineers need to kind of move up that maturity curve. And uh I think a lot of people end up being a little bit stuck in uh call it you know advanced prompting.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":7,"time":"3:34","seconds":214,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"Uh and you know have maybe not really jumped into the space where saying well actually I'm handing work over And I'm expecting uh an AI setup to basically be able to solve that ask that I have. from A to Z to get to a P R that can be shipped. and basically go out the door. And on the manager side or the leadership side, You know, we obviously get Asked by people in finance to say, well, those numbers look awfully big. What's actually going on? Do you know what's happening here?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":8,"time":"4:06","seconds":246,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"Um so a lot of us obviously spend time trying to figure out to crunch those numbers and see well what actually is going on. And you know, industry, I think, is going towards a cost per PR, which has kind of become a common number to look at to say, okay, what was the actual price I had n amount of sessions and it resulted in a PR. And if I had this amount of cost and this amount of PRs, You know, if I do some equalization on that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":9,"time":"4:33","seconds":273,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"I get to a reasonable understanding of the cost of PR. And we did that. And what I observed in the numbers, which I have to say, I mean, it made me incredibly curious immediately. was I had on the one side Individual at the one extreme that had an enormously high PR count, over 500. uh you know, in a in a very short time period. And obviously the cost per PR was quite low. And I had on the other side uh a person that had a very, very high spend but very little PR.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":10,"time":"5:02","seconds":302,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"And I was like, okay, well, what's going on here? And if I looked at it maybe from a pure FinOps perspective. you know, I would say, well, mm black and white, you know, many PRs, low cost, good. Uh less PRs, uh, high cost bad. Uh okay, those people that are bad we should not have. Um but the reality is when I then unpacked that I found two engineers that were doing Uh quite different work. and had quite different problems at hand that they had to solve.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":11,"time":"5:29","seconds":329,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"Uh the individual that was doing this very, very high PR count. had actually created this specialization, I would say, of having call it a factory for themselves. of you know agents And a a highly um opinionated flow about what should happen in each of the stages of the work that these AI agents were asked to do. Um The individual has basically said, listen, I'm going to come with a level of specification. And before you do anything else, I want you to break this out and go into deeper detail.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":12,"time":"6:04","seconds":364,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"of what all the different things are that are required. to achieve a definition of done. Uh this then gets handed over in a second step of the workflow. of actually doing some design and some architecture of that. And this gets reviewed by that individual to make sure they're comfortable with this. Um documentation records are written. to make sure that that's persistent in memory for long-term purposes. Obviously there's coding. And there's verification of all that code. Uh and then eventually we get to a P R. And then, you know, there's also functional testing that happens in all of that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":13,"time":"6:37","seconds":397,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"But this individual had crafted a very, very, very skilled. highly advanced in my opinion. flow to optimize For being able to go at an enormous amount of velocity to get through a massive amount of code. Uh that got produced. Interestingly, with the ratio of test to actual functional uh code that you know was um almost Two-thirds of it was basically tests and validations. as well of all the the stuff that happened. So you know really quite sophisticated. you know, a very uh happy chap and you know always happy to share his experience. And on the other hand, you know, I found an engineer that had some very, very complicated problems around C.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":14,"time":"7:04","seconds":424,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":15,"time":"7:20","seconds":440,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"and some of the work we are doing there. That really needed a lot of very deep thinking by the AI that was very challenging. for the AI and had to go in long, long turns to go through and analyse this particular work. This work wasn't directly attributable to, okay, do all this. You know, great, I get six lines of code, off the code goes necessarily. Um so I think There is a story behind those numbers and it's important that we you know, if you're leading an organization or a team, that you really get familiar with understanding What are the different contexts that people are working with?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":16,"time":"7:57","seconds":477,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"within And what problems are they trying to solve? So yes, it's good to have numbers. Uh and we should be very careful to not pass uh judgment too quickly. without really understanding the context of the problems that are being worked on. And the the the Um issues that's being trying to be solved or the opportunity that's being explored. It was a great learning for me. And the best part of that probably was to get this individual that was essentially making using AI part of his craft.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":17,"time":"8:28","seconds":508,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"And then being able to obviously share that to you know other engineers so they can take benefit for it. Um Within that, of course. Sonar. focuses on this uh fundamental idea of trying to guide the AI, verify the outcome. And most of us work on brownfield applications of some sort. So there is a backlog of things. That can be solved by, for example, a remediation agent that can go and look at all past issues. or now also Hunter agent that can go and look at security Um issues that may not necessarily be found in the upfront workflow or be part potentially of legacy code that needs to be inspected anew.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":18,"time":"9:09","seconds":549,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It's funny because I think we were having this debate a couple of years ago broadly as a community about velocity and lines of code and people over optimizing for them. and understanding the value cycle of software and the differences between different projects. And we're kind of back to having the same debate. Again, after I think we had this great run of like, oh, let's talk about developer experience and actually, like, what's the value being delivered. Uh and then I think we kind of got re-obsessed with velocity because we weren't able to enable so much of it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":19,"time":"9:41","seconds":581,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Through AI coding, and because AI can simply code faster than any human can. Uh over time. And it has opened up the opportunity to throw so much more code at a problem, to solve problems faster with code. Yeah. And it's changed the conversation, but it almost is making us fall back to fundamentals again: of like, okay, what's the quality delivery?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":20,"time":"9:42","seconds":582,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"Yeah. Yes. What I mean? Yeah, and you know, in the past it was lines of code and we measured that, you know, lots of lines of code, fantastic, uh not a lot of lines of code, not very good because, you know, we're paying a big salary to these people so they should produce many lines of code. And usually, to be honest, the people that removed lines of code were Probably the most important people you had at the time. And then, you know, we all got agile and scrummified and whatever.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":21,"time":"10:27","seconds":627,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"Uh and then it was story points, you know, a lot of story points was better, so everything inflated, you know, but you know, it looked good on numbers boards, etc. And then here we are with tokens and token maxing and it's like, oh, let's have a leaderboard of that. Again, I don't I mean You can't blame people for wanting to try to make some type of quantification. It it's quite normal. uh in in society that we try to quantify the these things But I I you know we think we should be careful not to you know overreact to those things and try to take them listen, it's a an input.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":22,"time":"10:59","seconds":659,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"And in the context of software, it is a craft and the moment you forget that and just make it into you know, some type of balance sheet exercise. Uh I think you lose a lot of the understanding of how systems come together. Um Most of us that bank are very comfortable knowing uh that banks put an enormous amount of focus on quality and verifying every single thing that they do. At the or origin of that code when it gets, you know, the first line gets written out.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":23,"time":"11:31","seconds":691,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"all the way through to very complicated large regression test suites, et cetera. and of course security testing and validation. Um and so you know There is a very important place for that. in most software. Although I would say some software today is getting to be a little bit throwaway, right? Uh you know, everybody has got AI. Everybody builds beautiful dashboards. They may last a couple of months, but they're probably not the business critical ones. And you know, for those, yeah, you need to make sure you don't do dumb things.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":24,"time":"12:01","seconds":721,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"Like expose your database to the world so they can go and suck out all the data, which has happened in a number of cases. Um but you know uh yeah, quality is an important aspect of all software. But obviously there's some that are much, much more important uh than necessarily others.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":25,"time":"12:17","seconds":737,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"What are some of the lessons you learned from these comparisons you're doing as you talk to these individual engineers, as you do these studies? You talked about the software factory that this one engineer has built versus the multi-turn and kind of deeper thinking approach. How are you taking those lessons from these premier engineers to the rest of your organization?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":26,"time":"12:38","seconds":758,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"Yeah. I I mean, I think the thing that uh I've always concerned myself with is how do we take something that is a good thing in one case and try to figure out to make it broadly available. To everybody, right? So the thing that this inspired a little bit on our side was to say, well, Couldn't we think of a way that we could get every single engineer bootstrapped in a way in their terminal with having this set up so they can essentially work in kind of this higher maturity level.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":27,"time":"13:10","seconds":790,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"way Uh which I think has a better outcome for Um for everybody and you know uh uh A good uh scale economics. in terms of what we are burning, in terms of tokens, and in relation to the outcomes we get. Important for us of course internally, but obviously also for our customers. is that we integrate the steps and the things that can reduce cost. of tokens. So for example, in our solution, we have uh an aspect called vortex. uh which essentially gives the agent the ability to pull out context of the particular code base that's being worked on.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":28,"time":"13:49","seconds":829,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"be that coding guidelines. or the graph of that code. So essentially reduce the burning through of rereading all of that code by the LLM. which is kind of a little bit of a wasteful effort. Um so things like that are important for us obviously too. put into our own workflow. And obviously, that's also what we are trying to help customers get. We don't want the long loop of, hey, I'll write a line of code. I think this is ready. Let's go do a PR. Wait for that whole out a loop cycle to complete.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":29,"time":"14:19","seconds":859,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"So we want to give customers the ability to get and our own engineers, the ability to get an answer very quickly, is there a problem? With this particular file, or these files, or the files in combination, almost at the terminal level. Um so that's a little bit what we focused a lot on this year. the recognition that Can we make that inner loop? more economical. and faster in terms of turnaround, so you don't have to get the long life cycle. uh of the outer loop completed before you get feedback. Uh so that's obviously an obsession as well, to make sure we we can make sure that everybody works consistently in terms of that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":30,"time":"14:55","seconds":895,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Season 4 of Chain of Thought is delivered by Svix. We spend a lot of time talking about what agents need in production, and one of the least glamorous answers is events. Your customers want agent workflows that react to things happening inside your system, which means your API needs webhooks that actually work. Not just a post request and a prayer, retries, ordering, idempotency, replay protection. Svix does that as a service, and they wrote standard webhooks, the spec that Anthropic, OpenAI, and Google build against. So if your API doesn't have reliable webhooks, that's turning into a lost deal. Join Brex, Dorada, Daytona, and many others on Svix. Get started at link.svix.com slash C-O-T or go to the show notes to grab the link. Qualified startups will get $12,000 in credits, $50,000 for YC companies. I can't recommend Svix enough. I'm a huge fan of their open source project. I've actually contributed a bit myself and they're so easy to integrate with, I think you'll really enjoy it. Check out Svix at link.svix.com slash c-o-t.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":31,"time":"16:01","seconds":961,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Season four of Chain of Thought is presented by Walrus Memory, the portable memory layer for AI agents. Your agent has learned your code base and how you work. Now you want to use that context in another tool. Exporting a file gives you a snapshot, but what happens when the context changes? Walrus Memory is a portable memory layer that lets your agent store context for later use across tools. Python and TypeScript SDKs plus native MCP support let you connect it to your agents, no matter where they are. You set who can read and write, so sharing context doesn't mean opening up your whole memory store. If you are building across tools or model families, take a look at Walrus memory. Learn more at walrus.xyz slash cot. That's walrus.xyz slash cot.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":32,"time":"16:50","seconds":1010,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I've seen you in other circumstances break this down into multiple, I believe you called agent-centric development. loops that you're using. Can you talk a bit about how you're thinking philosophically about what this looks like as we move forward in software engineering and how you've seen Uh this be redeveloped the current era.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":33,"time":"16:57","seconds":1017,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"Yes. Yeah. I think uh we call it guide verify solve. Uh so essentially we start you know at the beginning in the terminal. or we hand something over to a terminal that's running somewhere else. where agents can essentially interact with the code base. and get this context that I spoke about, the coding guidelines. Uh the architecture of the application, the intended architecture, and essentially get bootstrapped with a bunch of parameters on top of the functional requirements that needs to be done. And work can essentially continue through those agents.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":34,"time":"17:41","seconds":1061,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"They may be collaborating. You may have multiple agents that are kind of Challenging each other, but the result is something that you feel is ready to get to a commit stage. where we can do a verification. of that outcome before it kind of makes its way into the kind of into the sausage factory of getting the software out the door and get it shipped. After that We then do uh both an algorithmic and you know an unbased analysis of the PR and the PR in context of the overall code base.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":35,"time":"18:11","seconds":1091,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"And we use both of those complementary techniques to make sure we really cover holistically. all the different techniques and methods you could use. to ensure that you have you know, very, very high. Quality standard and security standard of that code. Because once that PR gets accepted, it's in your code base. You know, that's your intellectual property. And you want to be careful with that to not pollute it. and you know get it to break down and deteriorate over time. After that, as I said before, um Most of us work on some type of brownfield application.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":36,"time":"18:41","seconds":1121,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"They're changing very rapidly. And in that, of course, we have got legacy issues that we need to go kind of and deal with. Normally that has been Making its way through backlogs that, oh, let's have a hardening sprint to go and fix it. Today, we offer a remediation agent that can essentially plow through this. and raise PRs. that developers can then look at and then accept. So we're kind of taking a lot of that burden away and the cost of ownership. of that technical depth. drastically.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":37,"time":"19:10","seconds":1150,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"Another aspect which today, and we've seen this recently in news, but is this exploration of the code base from a security perspective. And specifically here Uh you know, we got an an amazing code security team. Kudos to everybody and them too. And they have spent quite a lot of time researching. what is the best way to traverse through the code base to find all these potential vulnerabilities that could exist Which accumulate potentially over time and haven't been explored in this way that we can do today in the past.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":38,"time":"19:47","seconds":1187,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"So you may have applications that may not have undergone a lot of change, but have an accumulation. of issues that go across um in the application stack. Input sanitation. is a famous issue in lots and lots of applications and lots of hacks. and breaches has happened because of lack of sanitation. Uh well guess what? Uh they're still there out there today. They still get added and created and introduced into code base a day. having a hunter agent that can really traverse through all that code base and find them and actually highlight The risk profile.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":39,"time":"20:22","seconds":1222,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"to get those issues remediated. Obviously you can give them to a remediation agent to get them solved. Um But really making sure that you have confidence that that code base that you are operating on the basis of, you're probably operating your business. Uh really meets the highest threshold of security is is a super important Uh aspect. And you know, we call those, if you will, kind of background agents. There shouldn't necessarily be a human that says, hmm, you know, I want to go and do this thing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":40,"time":"20:51","seconds":1251,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"So it is a little bit on a schedule, it's automated. It happens in the background. And I think the biggest challenge for you know, uh anybody is that Uh if if I create a PR, it's the most important thing in the world. If somebody else creates a PR and puts it to say, hey, Andrea, could you please review it? Sure. When I've got time, right? And this is a little bit the challenge with these things, is that we get a lot of changes coming out of the woodwork.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":41,"time":"21:16","seconds":1276,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"And we have this backlog of things that we have to go through. Uh guitar is awesome, for example, from our perspective in terms of being able to go and traverse through these PRs. And explain what the hell is this change actually about? What should I focus on? What should I be worried about? Uh plug into. And by the way, are there actually any obvious issues here that need to be fixed before I even do anything? Uh so please go and fix them. So you need this constellation and combination of tools.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":42,"time":"21:44","seconds":1304,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"Uh to help you Be efficient. To help make sure that you maintain the high standards of the intellectual property you already have. You have to recognize that what you already had may already have a series of technical debt or security issues. and you want to make sure to get rid of those. The world is not getting safer when it comes to software in terms of things that can happen out in the wild. So we want to keep an eye on that. And then we also need to think about developers.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":43,"time":"22:13","seconds":1333,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"ability to actually pay attention to the most important things. Otherwise it's just a wall of noise. And I think I've said this many times before, five lines of code change, we can argue about for hours. Five hundred lines. You know, it's usually looks good to me. You only live once, so let's just get this change in. And if you don't recognize that and just say, When I hear people say, Oh, there should be a human in the loop, I'm like, Okay, but if you're not helping the human in the loop, you're really being a little bit Uh you're doing mi doing them a disservice and you're probably being a bit naive. Um if you're not providing some real assistance to them.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":44,"time":"22:51","seconds":1371,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Ton of great points in here. A couple that I want to pull on in particular. So, one, coordination. I think it's really interesting how Sonar is beginning to set out these various lanes with specialized agents across multiple loops, too. interested to talk a bit more about coordination, security, obviously. But first I want to point out something that you said, which is about prioritization. both for individual developers and within the code base. And I actually think it's gotten harder for us to prioritize because we're all being encouraged to.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":45,"time":"23:23","seconds":1403,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Assign out work to agents right now. And so it's very easy to have. 20 different threads going with multiple different PRs and process and code review. And I worry personally sometimes um that I am Spending too much time across a variety of tasks, achieving a lot of work, but not necessarily prioritizing. the top work that is going to be most impactful for me. and something I've had to personally check myself on. Are you systematically enabling that within Sonar? And when I say enabling, I mean Are you helping ensure that high priority work is prioritized first? How are you coordinating this through the system?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":46,"time":"24:00","seconds":1440,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"Yeah, I I mean firstly I'd like to say that I think that multitasking is an illusion. it doesn't actually work and it doesn't produce better outcomes. So I think Uh we don't need AI. Necessarily to teach us that lesson. I think it's just a life lesson, multitasking. uh it does not produce better outcomes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":47,"time":"24:20","seconds":1460,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"Uh just from that perspective. Um Privatization is Super, super difficult. Uh no doubts. And I I don't think that's an AI problem necessarily. I just think the volume of possibility to actually have these multiple tasks handling or happening uh produces a optionality in terms of taking on more Right? That's the expectation perhaps. Um And the reality is that our ability to prioritize between these different things is not particularly uh great I would say. Uh and I don't think that's an AI challenge, it's always difficult. I've got a backlog of things that we need to get through.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":48,"time":"25:05","seconds":1505,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"There's a customer priority for this product feature. We have this bug that we need to get fixed and squashed. Um It's always challenging to do that and there's a little bit back to the software craft thing. Right, there's a level of experience about figuring out what is the most important thing. Um For us, I have to say we give a lot of freedom. To the individual engineers, obviously, to look at what is the most important things. And Then again, also when you think about vulnerability management and stuff like that, there are certain standards that we just must.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":49,"time":"25:37","seconds":1537,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"implement and we must obey by. uh certain regulation recently, for example in Europe, requires very, very active engagement on anything that smells of vulnerability in terms of timelines, reporting timelines. So you have to make sure you educate the organization on that and you make sure your policies and your procedures actually support it. But in terms of agent to agent prioritization. I can't say that we necessarily have like a great framework that says this agent. I think you need to figure out what your agent's M D file says about what the order of things and where the challenges should happen.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":50,"time":"26:16","seconds":1576,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"So if you have for uh you know if you feel find that's a good approach to personify the fact that there is somebody that is representing the product manager role, if you will. and coming out with definitions of done. Well if m That Part of the agent loop is saying no. This isn't up to scratch in terms of what I expect in terms of definition of done. Obviously from that perspective, inter agent-wise. you could establish a prioritization order. in terms of who has power to accept or reject certain things that come through that agent loop.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":51,"time":"26:51","seconds":1611,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And on coordination in particular, I think we've seen quite a bit. Both from developers and their setups, but also broadly in the media lately, as we've Explored some of the agent forums that have been leveraged by agents forums to coordinate from misaligned evals and other circumstances. The Huggy Face hack obviously being big example of this, but we've seen a recent German Wiki forum that was used and others. How are you thinking about the tools provided to agents and Agent Swarms more broadly. Uh as far as how we coordinate work going forward. as humans step back to a greater level of abstraction.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":52,"time":"27:34","seconds":1654,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"Yeah. Um I mean I think the first thing that comes to mind to me is you should be careful that you're clear about what you're asking for uh and what the guardrails are you're actually setting up for that. Uh there's obviously network tricks and we've seen them not work. uh that you need to think about if you're sandboxing or other things like that. I think for most cases though, I mean these are a little bit extreme in media and they're a little bit extreme cases of of testing the boundaries of things that's happening in the frontier labs.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":53,"time":"28:03","seconds":1683,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"Uh you know, in most companies the I think the benefit of a swarm of agents Is that you establish a clear scoped problem or opportunity? that you want to get explored. and give that to A set of agents, or it can be an agent that can spawn multiple sub-agents. to be able to explore that in depth. But to do that, I do think you need to make sure you're clear on what the boundaries, of course, of that is. And how is it you set up your instruction sets?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":54,"time":"28:33","seconds":1713,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"around what it is you're expecting. of outcomes. And when is it you have a human in the loop being pinged to be pulled in to essentially verify. Right. It's super easy to go and say, you know. uh always allow uh and uh good luck and let's see what happens. Um But I mean, you also want to be a bit mindful about like, hey, there is probably a natural checkpoint. in the outcome of this work. You may not necessarily know What the penultimate outcome is But you know that there is a definition phase and you want to be quite clear.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":55,"time":"29:07","seconds":1747,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"about going through that and you should torture yourself on the definitions to make sure you agree with the have definitions have done. and the boundaries that may be generated by agents. So that instruction set carries into the next phase. or whatever that workflow is that you're trying to execute. Uh I think the The risk is that people are becoming too permissive. And maybe they say, you know, it becomes a little bit easier to become lazy. Right? Hey, go and solve this thing, you know, and then kind of always allow and let's see what the hell happens.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":56,"time":"29:40","seconds":1780,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"You know, that's quite risky. And again, this takes You know, with great uh autonomy also comes great responsibility and I think everybody that's involved in industry has to take that responsibility seriously. And not just um deflect that off to Mm-hmm. some AI engine that's gonna come out and do type of a uh a miracle. Uh scoping is super important. making sure that you're clear on those definitions and boundaries of what you expect. And you know, from time to time we see some surprising uh responses back saying, oops, I actually completely ignored that instruction and I g went and did something else.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":57,"time":"30:17","seconds":1817,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"Um so there you have to Hopefully you've got good security teams that are taking care of your developer environments and making sure they are boxed. well and securely uh in relation to that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":58,"time":"30:29","seconds":1829,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I think part of the challenge of this coordination too is that different agents. You know, depending on the context they're provided, depending on simply the fact that they're non-deterministic, or even. That they may have a different model supporting their loop. May disagree on an outcome, may provide you different advice. And so understanding how to handle these coordination challenges where they do disagree is uh a human problem. What advice would you give to engineers, or what techniques would you advise them to use to handle this type of coordination when agents do disagree?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":59,"time":"31:04","seconds":1864,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"Um Firstly, I think it's important that you actually set this up so that there can be some challenge because otherwise you end up with the risk of just getting a lot of Agreements. So I think firstly you should make sure that you set it up so that there can be a challenge situation. The other thing I find, and again back to the example that we started with, is that I noted one thing which was all the tasks were like Quite small. Right? It wasn't uh you know go and build this enormous magnificent thing and take four days and come back with it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":60,"time":"31:36","seconds":1896,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"Uh the person has actually been very thoughtful about uh shaping this into consumable bits. where the individual felt, listen, I can still manage. the output that's coming here and actually have an ability to go and have some input on it. I think the risk is a little bit if you you know, create uh 400,000 lines of code. in an agent sitting that's running for five days. I mean, you have absolutely no idea what's going on in that code base. Now if your appetite, risk appetite on that is that that's fine.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":61,"time":"32:08","seconds":1928,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"Okay, that's up to you, but it's not something I would recommend that you do. Uh I think you should try to figure out to get those things broken down so that you have an ability to actually still have oversight and overview of it. And you know, governance is a lot to do. with having insight into the things are broken down into components that you can actually manage. mentally and also overseas. Um so I I I would not advocate for you know, let's just take four hundred thousand lines of code and, you know, off we we YOLO.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":62,"time":"32:39","seconds":1959,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"I think that's quite high risk. Um But most of what I've seen that has worked very well has been constructing an intentional flow between perhaps an orchestrator agent. that is using Different personas, if you will. Engineer product managers, quality, et cetera. and ensuring that there's already a workflow expressed that ensures that there's good challenge between those different agents, if you will, or personas. Um because that very much mimics what we do in a way in human life, right? Uh traditionally, you know, we built a lot of software, put it into a system, we had QA.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":63,"time":"33:17","seconds":1997,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"hammer through it, send all the defects back. Now all of that can of course be done more or less in a session. if you will, between agents, But they're still good principles. of having, you know, check the checker type of Uh um setups. specifically on your functional requirements in functional validation.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":64,"time":"33:36","seconds":2016,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"This episode is sponsored by G2i. I've said before on Chain of Thought that most teams still treat evals like unit tests. Write them once, check a box, and move on. That doesn't hold up once an agent is making decisions. G2i is built to close that gap. For over a decade, they've vetted and placed engineers at other companies, from startups to FAANG. Two years ago, they turned that same judgment inwards, building their own bench to review RL environments, evals, and training data that models are trained on. These reviewers know the difference between code that runs and code that's actually good, because they've shipped it themselves. If your team needs that kind of work and doesn't have the engineers for it, check the link in the show notes to bring them in.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":65,"time":"34:17","seconds":2057,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Season four of Chain of Thought is presented by Inngest. Long-running agents need endurance. They must endure waiting for users and weather tool failures. They must take each new jump in model intelligence in stride. Inngest makes long-running agents durable, observable, and improvable over time. Check out their generous free tier and a sleek local dev server for testing your workflows. Grab the Inngest link in the description or visit inngest.link/cot-pod to get started. Build for the long run with Inngest.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":66,"time":"34:59","seconds":2099,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It's interesting you bring this up because I feel like For my personal development that I'm doing, and I should expose my personal software development here. I've taken on really like I feel like a technical product manager role in a lot of ways. Where I am kind of guiding the architecture, I'm talking to my team lead agent, which right now is. Typically Fable 5.1 or Astra. And I'm saying, okay, like here's what I'm envisioning from the product. Here's what I've seen from user feedback. Maybe I'm having them assist me doing research.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":67,"time":"35:30","seconds":2130,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And then they're really acting as my engineering team leader, engineering manager. And they're managing a fleet of sub-agents. Uh and personally I like to have Multiple different model families involved in this. It's particularly at like review steps, where I don't want it to be all open AI agents. We're all, you know, anthropic agents that are are doing the The work. I want to have. A few different model families. I'm using like Inkling, MuseSpark, Grok, and a variety of other open models. Nebotron, et cetera, to come in on the review step and say, okay, let's challenge the assumptions.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":68,"time":"36:04","seconds":2164,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Because I do think there's this interesting phenomenon where Just like how you can see a company's engineering team. start to have biases within their work. Um if I only throw GPT agents at a problem and then I have GPT agents also doing the review step. They often have similar biases or they support the same direction that. These other agents have. Whereas if I have Um you know I keep those same That same team of 5.6 Sol led by an Astra team lead agents that go and build the project for me, but then I have.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":69,"time":"36:38","seconds":2198,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"uh you know Fable five point one and Opus um from the Anthropic family and then I have like a Grok agent review. Or I have them use Spark a review. They will provide very different feedback because of this cross-model family review. I'm curious if you're seeing similar patterns in your coordination and how you're layering models within. uh these loops, whether it's the verification, build loops, etcetera.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":70,"time":"37:03","seconds":2223,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"Yeah. Um I admire your credit card company, so yeah, good. Yeah. I I think Uh what I've seen work well I do think we get a propensity to get a little bit stuck on single models, right? Oh, you know, I kind of know what I'm going to get back, so I kind of like prefer that way of working. It's an interesting thing when people change their like, oh, okay, this is a quite a different experience. I agree with you. Having obviously these higher class models to try to do that planning, do the architecture, do kind of the The set out of Specifically Complex definitions of done because you want to get make sure you have a functional verification in mindset as well.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":71,"time":"37:18","seconds":2238,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. I think a good point from what you said. Uh is that Myself and the folks who are truly on the frontier of this. Are often talking about individual or small team setups, or we're listening to people from the model labs where they are getting unlimited tokens to leverage. And that is not always the case for when we're trying to implement this within an enterprise or within a small business, even. There are coordination challenges that come in here, there are cost challenges that come in here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":72,"time":"37:44","seconds":2264,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"And then you can farm out to use. different agent, uh different model families. to do different parts of that work and I like Um also this idea of the challenging from different model families. I don't know if I've seen the efficacy on, you know, is there really enormous value. in the long run in terms of that. Or are we kind of having this sense that Because I'm asking Grok, I'm probably getting a different uh opinion. How do you separate and segregate out these things for the long term and at enterprise scale, for example?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":73,"time":"38:20","seconds":2300,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"You could do that. could be quite a challenging situation. If you've got 10,000 engineers in the organization, setting up all these different models, managing zero data trust, et cetera. it becomes quite complicated. I do though think that obviously the move towards local Hosted installed models that you're running. specifically also just for token costs. you know, it's not just a thing, it's happening. Uh and it's a reality. so that people will be mixing perhaps you know, frontier. Models. with more with open models that they may be using and hosting internally.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-73","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":74,"time":"38:56","seconds":2336,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"and mix and match in that way. And I think sometimes we Need to remember: you know, if you're trying to manage 10,000 engineers or a with that type of setup. It's some quite complicated problems you get into just in terms of scaling these things out. Uh obviously I would always recommend Hey, try not to have your LLM redo all the context work, so you should use something that can give that to you. got a great solution in terms of sonar vortex. And also the verification. I mean, you should focus on that functional verification.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-74","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":75,"time":"39:26","seconds":2366,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"Um and try to figure out all the different code qualities of security. challenges, solutions like sonar. can help make make that faster and cheaper for you. Um and yeah. Or obviously the mix of a deterministic uh technology with non-deterministic to get a holistic outcome. Uh I think it's a good Good option.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-75","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":76,"time":"40:00","seconds":2400,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"Yes. Yeah, yeah. the rollout of these things at scale Uh I mean it's a super super hard Challenge. Right. And again, as you said. Having a small team can be hard enough. you know, even internally for us, using lots of different model providers, Like how do you give to your finance team A single view of all that Cost that's coming through the sausage factories, right? You know, if you will. How do you just produce that? I mean, in this particular case, you know, I personally had to write bytecode, you know, some type of cost analyzer that pulled all this data in from all the different APIs.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-76","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":77,"time":"40:13","seconds":2413,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And it's really easy for me to say, oh, I have an open code Go subscription, Claude, and Um codecs and like, oh, that gives me access to so many models, and I use, you know, open router for a few more free. it's not that much coordination cost for me individually. Like, it's a little headache occasionally, but I could They can pilot themselves in a lot of ways, at least for the review steps. Whereas if you start to scale it out to a team of four people even.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-77","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":78,"time":"40:36","seconds":2436,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"or a team of let alone a t a team of 10,000. there are significant challenges that start to come into this. And I know you have some data behind this from You need to mention sonar vortex. You've done some studies around this. You've done some studies around coordination tasks. What are some of the key data points that you might want to bring up around coordination challenges and what you're seeing within AI loops today that maybe we haven't touched on so far?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-78","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":79,"time":"41:42","seconds":2502,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"that were available. and try to quantify things so that finance could essentially figure out, okay, but actually what is it we are spending our money on. Um secondly If you just had a team of ten engineers working on the same code base. How many times are we reading and rereading that same code? and paying tokens for that. And you know, I mean, if you're sitting in one of these fun tier labs and you got, you know, uh tokens galore, It's all well and good, as you said.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-79","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":80,"time":"42:12","seconds":2532,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"But you know, if you're a smaller engineering company, Maybe you got like twenty engineers or thirty engineers. And suddenly now you've got a per developer cost. Let's just imagine it's $1,000 per engineer per month. Well, I mean There has to be revenue on the other side that's going to cover those bills or bad things are going to happen. So you want to be very sensitive. to each of those tokens and what they actually get used to. What we found in our studies in terms of context specifically because that's really where We see people can kind of burn Quite a bit of tokens.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-80","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":81,"time":"42:51","seconds":2571,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"It's kind of, I mean, is it waste? I don't know if we could call it waste necessarily. Um But it's needless in a way, and you can do it through CPUs at cheaper rates. is that cost savings can be you know up to thirty percent, for example. just on reducing that token cost and that token spend. So rolling this out at scale. I mean, you had to be uh quite conscious of what it is you're putting in motion. Because that once that train goes, it's very difficult to pull it back.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-81","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":82,"time":"43:21","seconds":2601,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"If you had unlimited tokens and you hadn't thought about necessarily setting up some budgets. and figuring out to setting in Um configurations that allow people to have a lower token cost. And you suddenly start saying to people, well, now you can't spend any more. They've already now developed habits where they're like, hey, hang on a second. I can't do the things I was used to do. Um and you know in interviews even I mean, I sometimes get asked, you know, what's your token budget approach? Because they come from places that have had to do very strong restrictions.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-82","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":83,"time":"43:53","seconds":2633,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"because things just ran away. or alternatively They're getting incredibly small budgets like $50 a week, et cetera. which is like quite difficult to handle and deal with. Um so at scale Um There's a lot of considerations you have to make for this. Uh i in in my prior employers which have liked thousands and thousands of people. I mean, this is a full-time job for a a large group of people to worry about and make sure to manage this. Specifically because the correlation between a token burnt.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-83","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":84,"time":"44:26","seconds":2666,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"and the outcome vis-à-vis a revenue stream Yeah. quite difficult to actually connect. Uh and I don't think anybody's found the silver bullet. So you can see that there's more productivity, you can see your PR is going up. But in the end, is that then converting into more customers uh you know, more sales, whatever it is business you're in. Uh yeah, that's still a challenging No. I think.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-84","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":85,"time":"44:54","seconds":2694,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, to our earlier point about connecting the code to value delivery. We've been having this problem for years. It is still a problem. Uh the Just the abstraction layer around it has has changed a bit.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-85","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":86,"time":"45:02","seconds":2702,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"Yes. Yeah. I I would say the other the other thing just to add, which uh is a little pet um Um Topic of mine, just because I carry a couple of hats is At the same time, we've also given a lot of non-engineers Ability Two. Create things. Um they may not necessarily know there's code behind it, but to create things uh which means that the whole problem of shadow IT At the same time as this pressure of trying to figure out frameworks that you can roll out at an enterprise level.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-86","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":87,"time":"45:08","seconds":2708,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Another Another big challenge that we have touched upon in this conversation that is exacerbated by the amount of code we are now shipping. is security. Um I mean, we have seen the fact that it's much easier for LLMs to change security vulnerabilities, so smaller vulnerabilities matter much more than they used to. Uh we've seen the fact that they can simply operate at speeds that are Unprecedented. as far as an attack occurring. And Now we're also simply shipping more codes. There's more surface area to uh actually defend. What approach is sonar taking to This I guess new defense in depth area as I'm thinking.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-87","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":88,"time":"45:39","seconds":2739,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"those same IT organizations are also challenged with Well, finance used to create these spreadsheets with macros, shadow IT if you will. Now they're creating 100 dashboards and giving them to executives. All of them have to be secured. Data has to be secured. Uh they have to have uh maintenance and servicing. They may be using vulnerable libraries and you know The individual in finance may not know even what that is. Uh all of that also has to be managed. and put into a framework of managing S so those challenges are are big. uh for all enterprises to be able to manage that well and deal with it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-88","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":89,"time":"46:43","seconds":2803,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"Yes. Yeah, I mean our product has always had uh um you know, assault analyzer. And actually we did some quite innovative work of analyzing dependent library vulnerabilities so that when you bring those vul uh libraries into your application And if that library has a vulnerability and you're calling that particular function, We essentially understand through the analysis that we do that you have that dependency tree of issues. And on top of that, we released recently our Hunter agent that essentially explores the entire code base for these vulnerabilities.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-89","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":90,"time":"47:35","seconds":2855,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"And in this case, using LLMs exactly as you just said. Because the chaining and the ability to look at these uh issues in the compounded effect of them. Uh you know, it's something that LLMs can do incredibly well. Um so this is something that we we um Obviously it made it into a product and you know we now offer to customers, it went live. uh last month, so you know, a lot of interest in in terms of that. Uh in terms of internally Obviously we are um just as anxious as everybody else.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-90","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":91,"time":"48:06","seconds":2886,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"And you know, there's a lot of perimeter controls. And this is a multilayered onion. of figuring out how you manage your vulnerabilities. etcetera. I think the the concern that everybody has is just the onslaught of issues and prioritization as we spoke about before. is a challenge. and figuring out to go do good triage on these particular issues and vulnerabilities to make sure you are dealing with the most important ones first. uh is obviously also something that we spend a fair amount of time on. as a company that services Lots of other companies.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-91","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":92,"time":"48:40","seconds":2920,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Are there particular lessons that you've learned from the larger security incidents around agentic swarm coordination that we've seen in the news? Um What what are you learning from? this, I guess, the the frontier of security vulnerabilities as I'd put","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-92","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":93,"time":"48:55","seconds":2935,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, like you said before, uh details matter. Right, small vulnerabilities and small issues matter. We may not historically, if we had, you know, a penetration test or a bug bounty. the humans that use lots of cool tools to do all that. may not have been able to conflate those things together. to actually explore them. Uh you know, so I think the attention to detail and the attention to the small issues is super important. So if you don't have an ability to penetrate through your code base and go and find those.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-93","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":94,"time":"49:28","seconds":2968,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"I mean, you have to hurry up and get that put in place as fast as possible. uh otherwise the compounding effect of those small things Like I mentioned before, input sanitation is a famous one. It's not new, it's been around for a pretty long time. But there is a remarkable amount of those type of vulnerabilities, cross-site scripting. And of course the LLMs know about all these type of vulnerability classes. is going to use that knowledge to say, well, okay, why don't I create a battery Opportunities to go and explore, and because it can do that at an enormous rapid pace.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-94","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":95,"time":"50:02","seconds":3002,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"Um it can get through a tremendous amount of possibilities in terms of exploring code bases and their vulnerabilities. And at the end of the day, they are just fundamentally using the techniques that we already know today. It's just they can do it, as you said, in a swarm. So instead of a human that's maybe doing two of these, They can do a hundred at the same time or a thousand at the same time. and really explore it. So if you haven't hardened your surfaces and you haven't hardened your your fundamental code base. uh you are going to get issues.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-95","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":96,"time":"50:34","seconds":3034,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It's it's definitely a new era. Uh no no question about that. We Simply have a pace and scale that we've never seen before, and it seems to be continuing to accelerate. with models, with more tokens being thrown around. with these software factories that folks are building. And I think it creates a situation as we kind of Go back to this. coordination problem we've talked about throughout this conversation. but also to the multitasking challenge that we we brought up briefly earlier. Where it's really easy to get distracted from the most important things your organization needs to work on because there's so much going on, there's so much code flying around. How do you preserve time for things like investigations when something does go wrong.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-96","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":97,"time":"51:19","seconds":3079,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"I mean, I think you uh I mean this is not necessarily a new problem. I think uh you know in the past we used to say okay there's a team over here that take care of all this and then the engineers are working on this and then Bit by bit, obviously everybody realized, well, it's kind of not a great model, because then basically we just externalize the problem. The best place to have it is with the engineers. that actually produce the code because they own that code base and they own the service.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-97","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":98,"time":"51:42","seconds":3102,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"And in the same way here, you need to have somebody that is on that rotor. of doing that gardening duty. of going through and doing three yards. and is a little bit the internal defender, whether you do that in You know, a model where you say there's a certain amount of days or weeks or whatever, that person is doing that role. I think that's up to teams to decide. But they should decide to have somebody that's taking care of that inbound Noise traffic. That can help shield the team and rotate that role.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-98","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":99,"time":"52:11","seconds":3131,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"So everybody gets expertise in seeing what the different patterns are. of incoming noise and to be able to find the signals that are important. Um So I think I think you you do need to have that role. so that the team can be partitioned into people that can do deep work and focus on that work. and there's teams that can do the on-call. take all the noise and figure out to find the signals. And of course you need to use a bunch of tooling and Um the fortunate thing for us is I don't know if you've heard, but there's this thing called AI, which is actually awesome at taking that and helping you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-99","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":100,"time":"52:44","seconds":3164,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"in that and many teams develop Yeah, or flows that has to take that data in. and helps them get to the essentials. Um You know, we had a a situation with uh hundreds of Uh C V E is being reported. But you know, we knew that there was a high likelihood. On a number of those, it was false positive, and it was noise in terms of that report that we got. So you know the teams have built skills and capabilities to basically traw through that. and make sure to explore to say, well, okay, which one actually matters?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-100","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":101,"time":"53:17","seconds":3197,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"Uh and I think most teams develop those type of little utilities and helper tools. that it can assist them in also uh keeping control or keeping oversight of all the stuff that's incoming. But it it is definitely challenging, right? And it's only going to become more Well now apparently we're having a big AI slowdown, but let's see what happens over the next couple of couple of months. But yeah, it's definitely a challenge. And I I think teams you know, had to be creative and look at opportunities to also use AI to get them help.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-101","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":102,"time":"53:50","seconds":3230,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"And the best of teams have, you know, a set of agents that help them triage that information to go and get to the essentials. And hopefully to a point where they can actually go and say, well, let's get the essential and let's get fix and get the fix shipped. uh with as little interruption as possible.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-102","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":103,"time":"54:08","seconds":3248,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I think uh Interesting point from what you just said is that we are in an era of personalized software. both for teams and individuals. Because code has gotten so much easier to ship. as far as having an agent drive it for you. Uh whether or not it's secure, uh we can we can we've had a whole conversation about that. But there is an opportunity to personalize and provide","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-103","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":104,"time":"54:27","seconds":3267,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"Yep.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-104","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":105,"time":"54:34","seconds":3274,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Uh Apps that you wouldn't have otherwise been able to spend the time to build because you have too much going on to help accelerate your processes, understand what you're getting up to. And do exactly what you want in your workflow. And I think it's really exciting to have these conversations about how we build both the broader loops. For enterprises and also individuals. It's a really magical time in engineering right now. And personally, I'm finding it very","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-105","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":106,"time":"54:39","seconds":3279,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"Yes. Yes. Yeah, no, I mean in crisis there's opportunity, they say, right? And the same is true, you know, in software. It is a little bit of a crisis because of the volume. of information opportunities and things that are coming towards us. That creates opportunity to be innovative and create new things that we may not have imagined we could do before. Uh and you know I I admire and welcome all that creativity. I see it constantly, engineers coming up with ideas and things. I'm like, wow, you know, I hadn't even thought about the fact that we could do this.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-106","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":107,"time":"55:28","seconds":3328,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"Um And so yeah, it's a really exciting time to be in software engineering. And uh I think the good news story at least for software engineers is it doesn't look as if everyone's going to be out of a job. I think in fact actually companies are hiring more and more software engineers because of the opportunity that AI represents Um so yeah, I'm uh I'm Happy to see that the craft is well and alive.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-107","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":108,"time":"55:55","seconds":3355,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Andrea, thank you so much for a fantastic conversation. Where can folks go to follow you and your work?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-108","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":109,"time":"56:00","seconds":3360,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"Uh follow me well if you go to sonosource.com, that's the most important thing and you know I'm obviously on uh LinkedIn. And then I got my personal photography website, which has got nothing to do with AI, but uh that's up to people if they like that kind of","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-109","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":110,"time":"56:15","seconds":3375,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"We will link that in the show notes because that sounds fantastic. I will check it out. Andrea, thank you so much for a fantastic conversation. And thank you to our listeners. If you enjoyed this conversation, don't forget to drop a comment. Let us know what you thought. Tell us what we missed. Just tell Andrea, you know, he looks great on camera. We'd love to hear from you. It's always fantastic. And Andrea, thanks again.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-110","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi","episode":76,"guid":"6f11b094-7876-484d-8a0c-17bb3c5b5de5","episodeTitle":"Your Best AI Engineer Might Have the Worst Metrics | Sonar CTO Andrea Malagodi","publishedAt":"2026-10-05","segmentIndex":111,"time":"56:34","seconds":3394,"speaker":"Andrea Malagodi","text":"Thank you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/76-your-best-ai-engineer-might-have-the-worst-metrics-sonar-cto-andrea-malagodi/#t-111","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:52","seconds":52,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"As companies bring AI into more business decisions, we need to know, do our agents understand the context behind the data they're exploring? Do they have the verification they need to ensure answers are correct? And will that knowledge and accuracy change or continue as business context changes alongside it? Today, I'm at the offices of Wisdom AI here in San Mateo. Thank you to them for sponsoring this episode and having me down. And I'm here to talk with Kapil, who is the CPO and co-founder of Wisdom AI. We're going to discuss software, shared context, agent analytics, and what it takes to build trustworthy AI in the enterprise for both people and agents. Kapil, it's great to see you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":1,"time":"1:39","seconds":99,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"Great to meet you, Conor. Thank you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":2,"time":"1:41","seconds":101,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And Kapil, I know you have a lot of knowledge in this area. What are most people missing about the context needs for enterprise AI?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:50","seconds":110,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, first of all, thank you for having me here and coming into our offices today.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-2-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":4,"time":"1:54","seconds":114,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I mean, thank you for having me here. I'm showing up.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-2-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":5,"time":"1:56","seconds":116,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"Wonderful. And this topic is actually pretty close to my heart. We've been building in this space for the last three plus years now and very proud to kind of have the large enterprises as customers who use the product in production with their most critical data. including data for their finance, closing their quarters, building out investor relationship decks and so on, which actually requires not just precision, but as you mentioned, trust in that data. Somebody is actually signing off on that stuff like an underwriter. So how do you do that becomes a question. And trust comes in various different flavors. At a high level, if you think about what delivers trust in an answer that is generated by a probabilistic system like an LLM, it comprises of four different high-level things. The first one has to be accuracy. The answer has to be accurate. That somebody asks the question, let's say somebody asks 100 different questions, how many of those are correct? The second aspect is consistency. That if you and I together ask the same question a hundred different times, how many of those times is the answer coming back to the same result? That's consistency. The third thing is governance. You may have slightly more access into the data than I do, which is very true for enterprises. And in that case, the system needs to honor that, the governance aspect as well. So these things actually together, oh, and the fourth thing is explainability that providing visibility into the answers when it is generating and being able to trace back into those answers and see where exactly what thing was delivered in terms of like that audit becomes very important. So a combination of all of these four things delivers the trust and coming back to your question on what is the importance of context in all of these it delivers that accuracy without the context the models are just flying blind","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":6,"time":"4:13","seconds":253,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And a couple, first of all, thank you so much for having me here at the office today. And thank you to Wisdom.ai for sponsoring this conversation. In particular, I'll say explainability is obviously very close to my heart. The podcast is called Chain of Thought for a reason. We deeply care about it. And as we've talked about on this show multiple times, there are varying needs around which of these dimensions is most important to a specific enterprise. And there are varying needs around what a startup may care about or what an individual may care about in here. And there's a reason that we have to architect our context and our harnesses and all the data that is pouring into these models. differently depending on the use case. So what changes when a company is, let's say, moving from, hey, I'm using AI for individual productivity, it's helping us write some emails, maybe it's helping me do drafts, to, okay, now AI is analyzing and ordering information that may actually cause the business to make crucial decisions.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":7,"time":"5:13","seconds":313,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"[OVERLAP] Yes. Yeah. So think about it this way. If there's like a two by two on the y-axis, let's draw criticality of a use case.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-4-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":8,"time":"5:24","seconds":324,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] So we should put a whiteboard back here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-4-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":9,"time":"5:26","seconds":326,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"And on the x-axis, let's draw the impact that it can have. So now with that two by two, the top right will have the most critical high impact kind of use cases. If you start to think about those use cases, they're not about summarize this document or help me write this email, et cetera. They're more about, I want to optimize my supply chain in the organization. How do I do that? I have a financial planning and analysis task to run and I want to do flux analysis on my data or I want to do anomaly detection on this data and then go into root cause analysis. Now, all of those are more business critical and more high impact type of use cases. If you start to think about those use cases, you need all of these four aspects of explainability, accuracy, consistency, and governance for those to actually bring up the trust. Now, individual users may not have those needs, right? We are all happy writing those emails and summarizing, maybe doing design work and things like that with general purpose AI, which is fantastic. We are pretty big users of Cloud, Codex, everything within WisdomAI as well. But for all the data analysis and high critical tasks, we all internally and our customers use WisdomAI for that reason.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":10,"time":"6:55","seconds":415,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I think an important element of this conversation is also the fact that there may be a one-off need. Let's say I could use a cloud artifact for a one-time send to a colleague. But if this is something that is going to be consistently used throughout the business, I have to ensure that updates are made, that there's accuracy, that they hit all these explainability elements and actually build that trust you talked about. There's such a need for trustworthiness in enterprise AI, particularly depending on the use case. So I know if you're working with a bank, for example, there may be much higher trust needs than if you're working with a dev tool startup. And I love my dev tool startups. I know a lot of you work there. But a bank is actually moving customers' money around. They can't afford to have a non-deterministic and a deterministic system that can flit. They can't afford to have, you know, only 89 of those hundred questions you asked off of it earlier actually work, let's say, if you're trying to move money around. So, I mean, this illustrates what you're talking about here with the importance of trust and the need to have these different vectors aligned. What's the right way for folks who are on the enterprise side to be thinking through the architecture behind that trustworthy enterprise app?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":11,"time":"8:12","seconds":492,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"That's such a good question because the whole architecture is evolving as we speak right now.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":12,"time":"8:18","seconds":498,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, by the time I pull this out, it may have changed again.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-7-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":13,"time":"8:21","seconds":501,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"[OVERLAP] That's very likely. But what we have seen is that there is gravity towards a few different layers that have clearly shaped out of this architecture. At the bottom, there is the enterprise data. And we all know that we are all here to kind of use the LLMs and these large language models or small language models in some cases. So those things are constant. Now on top of that, it is also starting to get very well established that we need to bridge the gap between the LLM's understanding of the world and their understanding of the company's data with context. So the context layer kind of find its way into that architecture. But the other piece that is actually very little talked about these days, and I am 100% sure this will become a big deal and everybody will start talking about it, is a specialized harness on top of that. And that harness is specialized for a given task. In our case, we are building an analytics specialized harness on top of that context layer, which is what then powers the front end surfaces, be it WisdomAI's UI, or a cloud or a chat GPT or a customer's own internal chatbot. A good way to think about this is with an analogy of something that we all are aware of, like hospital system. Think about the surgeon as the LLM, the model. They're highly special, they're trained at their job. They're specialized for doing that kind of thing, surgery, which is pretty complicated. But they're not going to take a patient and start operating right away on any table.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-7-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":14,"time":"10:03","seconds":603,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I hope so.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-7-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":15,"time":"10:04","seconds":604,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"Yes, exactly. So what's missing there? First of all, what is it that they need? They need information about that data. The patient history becomes very critical. That patient history is the context. Based on that, the surgeon knows how to operate on this patient. But that alone isn't sufficient either because you cannot take a surgeon with the patient history and start operating in this room. Right? That wouldn't work either. So you need a specialized harness around that, which is the hospital system that provides it. And the hospital system is giving things like, here is the chart, here is the checklist, here is all the instrument and the equipment. And the back office is taking care of all the insurance needs and bringing in any other specialty whenever needed. So all of that, think of that as the harness. Now it's together, this hospital system being the harness, the context, which is the patient history, and the surgeon, which is equivalent of the LLM, coming together to make sure that the patient who's walking into a hospital is going out healthy.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":16,"time":"11:12","seconds":672,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I really like this analogy. I think it helps illustrate distinctly what the different elements of this context layer and harness around it are. But I want to drill down a bit more into what it may look like for a specific enterprise. So this healthcare example is great, but when we say the context layer, when we say agent analytics, what does that actually mean here? Because I think we have a lot of conversations, particularly in software development and a lot of folks listening to the show, where we maybe are referring to something else. And let's be clear on definitions.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":17,"time":"11:48","seconds":708,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"Okay, good point. Let's push on this analogy a little bit as well and then tie it back into this enterprise use cases. So let's take the example of a maternity ward and oncology ward. You would not take a pregnant woman who's about to deliver a baby into an oncology ward to do that. Now, this is the same hospital system, but it's a specialized harness. One is for maternity labor and delivery. That is what they specialize in. The other one is for oncology, which is treating cancer patients. So these are specialized harnesses. Now, let's use that same analogy and see what it means for the technology world. If you look at Departments like Legal, Harvey and Legora, these are the companies that are specialized harnesses for legal use. Sierra, Decagon, et cetera, are specialized harnesses for support use cases and customer success. They are trained, those harnesses, to go ahead and optimize for retention of the customer. They know when to hand off the case to a specialized human. Similarly, for whenever there is a need to access the data internally, the structured data internally, and there is a need to go ahead and apply trust and governance on those things, you need a specialized harness. That is the analytics harness that's provided by WisdomAI.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":18,"time":"13:17","seconds":797,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] This is very interesting in the context of some of the data I was reading that Wisdom put out earlier this year. You have this survey called the Meet the Modern Data Team. And yes, if you're on YouTube, I've got a copy with me. But you surveyed over 200 senior AI analytics and data leaders. And you know, one of the largest sample sizes was from healthcare. Um, and you know, these are roles like VP of AI transformation, VP data science, chief data officer. Uh, folks who are making these crucial decisions are working with not just data engineers, but developers across the organization. And as you've mentioned, their needs vary widely depending upon the industry they're involved in. Uh, over 90% of them. were, and this is earlier this year, so I suspect it's higher now, were using AI to analyze data, to at least experiment with collecting this intelligence. How would those types of roles need to think about the data that comes around this harness and how to manage it and ensure it is kept up to date so that they have the right context, whether it's for the surgery decisions or for agents that may be operating within the business?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-10-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":19,"time":"14:24","seconds":864,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-10-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":20,"time":"14:27","seconds":867,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"[OVERLAP] On the, on the survey, one thing that we found, which is very interesting is that all the 93%, as you rightly quoted, of the respondents said that they are doing this work. They're, they're accessing the, they're using LLMs and agents to access their internal data. Only 7% across the whole set were able to say that they have scaled the operations. And that's the missing gap.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-10-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":21,"time":"14:53","seconds":893,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Okay,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-10-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":22,"time":"14:53","seconds":893,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"[OVERLAP] So.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-10-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":23,"time":"14:53","seconds":893,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] so that points to the challenge here that you're directly addressing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-10-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":24,"time":"14:56","seconds":896,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"[OVERLAP] Exactly. So they've been able to do that. Yes. A general purpose hospital system will be able to take in a cancer patient, right? But they will, they will not be able to completely treat them. Maybe they are able to, uh, right, but they are not specialty for that. Now, same analogy. That's exactly the reason only 7% are successful. Why are the rest of these people, these CDOs and VPs of data not able to go ahead and scale these operations is because they're not able to deliver the trust in the data that is coming out of these chat systems. And the gap that needs to be filled is with this context. And I'll go into a few examples of what this context would look like and the harness on top of it. To take some examples there,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-10-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":25,"time":"15:46","seconds":946,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"[OVERLAP] let's use an example of a B2B software company that is selling their software to other businesses. One of the things that they may want to track is ARR. And every company has a slightly different definition of ARR, as we all know. And there is no way that out of the box, LLM would know what the definition of the ARR is for that company, or the definition of churn for that company.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-10-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":26,"time":"16:13","seconds":973,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] or they may not know when the fiscal year ends, because that varies. And that, of course, impacts those IAR measurements.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-10-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":27,"time":"16:19","seconds":979,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"[OVERLAP] That's exactly right. So these right between us right now, in the last 10 seconds, we've come up with three examples, the ARR, the churn definition, the fiscal year definition. All of this, when provided to the LLM, to the model, the model will then know without guessing. So it reduces the chances of hallucination there. So that is the context that needs to be fed into the model for it to work properly.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-10-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":28,"time":"16:45","seconds":1005,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And a lot of this comes down to a change in how the data stack works as well. We've seen, and I think I saw this data in your survey as well, that there has been a collapse around this legacy data stack that is now being more broadly fed into the context layer. We're seeing things, you know, the modeling and prep, the semantic layer, governance that were previously distinct buckets now, we need to make sure our agents have access to those so that they can make the right decisions as you point out. What are other changes that people should be aware of around how the data layer is changing that feeds into this whole contextual system and harness?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":29,"time":"17:25","seconds":1045,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"Yeah, I keep getting the same question in few different flavors. Like how is the context layer different from a semantic layer? Or how is, what's the role of a catalog in this new world? They're all kind of, these questions are pointing to the same direction on what is this new stack? What is this amorphous category of context that is getting formed and what's in that? So let me kind of try to tackle that from all of these different angles.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":30,"time":"17:57","seconds":1077,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"Traditionally, the way we as data teams, we started explaining the data for business use cases was, let's start with a semantic definition. This is where the definition of a churn or ARR in our example would go and sit in. when we provided that to the bi tools because bi tools were the primary consumers of the semantic layer and we provided that the bi tools which are deterministic in nature would actually go ahead and use those in the specific format so they were designed for a deterministic bi layer now there is a new different world in this world there is a chat agent user can ask any question without having pre-formatted or determined by the data team And now in that world, is the semantic layer sufficient? It is necessary, but it is not sufficient. There are a few different gaps that it creates. We definitely need those definitions of ARR in turn, but how would you encode the example that you said, which is that my fiscal year ends on January 31st rather than December 31st in a particular context. And when somebody is saying, asking questions about Q1, the finance team might mean it's a financial quarter versus the marketing team might mean that it is the calendar quarter.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":31,"time":"19:22","seconds":1162,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"This is a headache I have dealt with so much. So you're, you're giving me a little bit of PTSD here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":32,"time":"19:28","seconds":1168,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"I know this is, so we are dealing with these non-deterministic systems who are trying to reason on the fly. The reasoning hasn't been baked into the BI layer already. Now in that case, The semantic layer requires a lot more to be fed in. And that is why we call it context. I'll give you examples like this, this example of putting in the calendar and the fiscal quarter difference, and depending on who's asking what, how should you treat it? That's just a natural language instruction that when fed into the LLM deterministically, every time somebody is asking a question about calendars and quarters, That is what makes that more accurate. The other thing that goes into this, to the context, is examples of what good looks like. There are so many nuances when somebody, some analyst is writing an SQL statement or a Python query. It's not just the generic query that will fetch the results. Sometimes there are nuances, as you would know, that feed into that. And how would you capture those nuances and tell that to the LLM is through examples. instead of doing a single short answer generation, you feed in those examples as well. And that also needs to sit in this context layer. So context layer is broader than a catalog and a semantic layer. And it needs to be built and needs to be kept updated as the business evolves.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":33,"time":"20:57","seconds":1257,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"How do you think about the differences between memory and context? Because I think this is another area where we're seeing a lot of conversations that may have overlap or unclear definitions that could","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":34,"time":"21:11","seconds":1271,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"[OVERLAP] the terms are being used interchangeably. And rightly so. So let's peel the onion a little bit more. When you and I send an instruction, a prompt over to the LLM, what we are sending is some piece of text. And that piece of text goes in this thing called a context window. and we all know that context windows are various different sizes depending on the model and so on so that is the amount of text that can go into the prompt now if you put in a lot of text let me put the whole company history and all the documents in that context window and let's expand the context window we are actually not optimizing. What we are doing is we are letting the LLM again take a guess on what out of that is the right piece of context to use. And we are also burning the tokens. So it's not optimized. If we send less context in that window, even then we are leaving room for the llm to make guesses that is where the hallucination comes in so the trick is to actually put in the just the right amount of context given every prompt so now there is the prompt there is a context that has been injected into that and that is what will produce the right results now coming back to the question of the memory Now, who produces this context and how it gets used is where the distinction between the context layer and the memory layer comes in. This information that we were just talking about, ARR definition or the definition of churn, it does not vary. This is our company's truth. That's organizational context. Somebody who's in the position of authority, let's say an SME in this case, can go ahead and put that in. It's not something that the model has to learn on the fly. But yours and mine preferences as we start to use the system, I personally do not like pie charts. I'd much rather have","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-16-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":35,"time":"23:15","seconds":1395,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Okay,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-16-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":36,"time":"23:15","seconds":1395,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"[OVERLAP] a donut","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-16-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":37,"time":"23:15","seconds":1395,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] interesting.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-16-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":38,"time":"23:15","seconds":1395,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"[OVERLAP] chart, right? Just my preference.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-16-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":39,"time":"23:18","seconds":1398,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Fair enough.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-16-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":40,"time":"23:19","seconds":1399,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"Now, that does not impact how the company operates or when somebody else asks a question, they also may not like pie charts. Just that doesn't make sense. So that is my personalized memory. And that instruction also goes into that context. So it's the context engineering that needs to kind of massage this information and put all of this together. But that's the distinction. My user level usage and preferences go into that memory layer. And the context is more institutional.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":41,"time":"23:50","seconds":1430,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"This is where I think if we look back at your examples note, there are examples that belong in the broader context layer and there are examples that belong into the individual memory layer for an individual user. One example of this from my personal software development would be that I have this expanding skill that's got a few thousand stars on it that I built called Avoid AI Writing to help rewrite AI text for much of the slop that you may experience as you try to have AI write for you. And we've built specific examples into the context layer for that skill about what good writing looks like, how it should think about this, how it should do rewrites. And then we have it call out to individualized context that we can have, memory in this case, that would be my own writing voice. Here are the examples for me personally, where I want an LLM to write in this way. This is how I like to speak. This is how I write. And I think that this is just an example from my own personal life, but there are so many instances of this. And it feels like we're just scratching the surface of how individualized AI is going to get as we see things like Muse launch, for example, and all these different personalized assistants I would anticipate that context engineering becomes even more a topic of conversation.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":42,"time":"25:09","seconds":1509,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"[OVERLAP] 100% even memory has, it's not just a one single block. Uh, there is short term memory. There is long term memory. There is episode memory. There's all sorts of different memories as well that play a role into this. We're just scratching the surface on all of these things together.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-18-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":43,"time":"25:26","seconds":1526,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] And if you look at like OpenAI or Anthropic or any of the major players, they've changed how they approach memory over the last couple of years. There have been multiple iterations, just like how we're seeing the context and analytics harness evolve as well. I'm going to pull us off track here for a minute because I'm very curious to get your opinion on this. It's something that's come up on a couple of recent episodes, and it feels relevant to the example you brought up earlier around an individual user prompting an agent that can pull from the data and context of the organization. That agent is really becoming the user of many apps that we used to use. Like I, as an individual, may not really be a user of many tools in Salesforce, for example, anymore. My agent is probably going out and doing that for me. Do you view agents as the new users of many applications?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-18-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":44,"time":"26:15","seconds":1575,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"Oh, 100%. That's such an important point that you're bringing up here because the tasks that humans used to do. will be done by humans, but will be augmented by agents as well. So if we are looking at this kind of task, which is access data internally in the organization, there, so far it's been us, the humans who go in, ask the question, get the answer, either by looking at a chart or in natural language or any of that stuff.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":45,"time":"26:47","seconds":1607,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"In the near future, there will be autonomous agents that do the same task of asking the question, get access to the data. And guess what? They're not there just to get the data out. They're there to take some action on top of that data. which means that essentially we are slowly in that use case eliminating the human in the loop from interpreting the response using the judgment whether the response is right or wrong before taking an action because the agent is going to go take an action.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":46,"time":"27:19","seconds":1639,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I feel like this also speaks to the problem of where agents and humans should be operating within the stack, as we increasingly see agents being the users of system of record, the ones who are gathering data and providing it to us, who are picking up the context that we are putting out as little crumbs for them. Where should humans be spending their time?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":47,"time":"27:39","seconds":1659,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"The humans need to be spending time in decision-making. We are not at a point where we should let the AI make the decisions, primarily because the trust in the responses for that agent is missing. We need to learn collectively on how to deal with this probabilistic system. So far in enterprises, we have always dealt with deterministic systems, and we know how to work with those. Now introducing a probabilistic system into the mix, we are all learning on how to go about doing that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":48,"time":"28:14","seconds":1694,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"totally think you're right. And I think this deeply impacts how we need to think about building these context harnesses and the layers that enterprises need to go through to achieve the trust that they need for different applications and for different agent use cases. To use a recent example, not specific to analytics, but I actually commissioned an AI agent to write an article for me recently. I had a cold email that I got from Sarah Kelly from ILANDS. It lets you spin up autonomous AI agents and put them out there and they can go commission work. And she wrote an article for me that's on my Stumpetstack about her experience of the world and how they're metering by tokens. And it's, it's the first time I have had an independent agent that I have gone to commission work from and interact with in that way. But I think we're starting to see those come into businesses already. Like this is, this is an exterior agent, but we're, that's not the first time I'm going to assess an agentic business, let alone an agent that's already within my enterprise systems. So how do we do the verification layer that is so important to ensure that we get that trust?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":49,"time":"29:27","seconds":1767,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"[OVERLAP] Okay, question back to you first before","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-23-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":50,"time":"29:28","seconds":1768,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Please.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-23-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":51,"time":"29:28","seconds":1768,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"[OVERLAP] I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-23-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":52,"time":"29:29","seconds":1769,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-23-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":53,"time":"29:29","seconds":1769,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"[OVERLAP] answer that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-23-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":54,"time":"29:29","seconds":1769,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-23-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":55,"time":"29:31","seconds":1771,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"[OVERLAP] In this example, did you let Sarah go ahead and publish that article to the public? Did not, so there is the human in the loop.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-23-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":56,"time":"29:38","seconds":1778,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I was. Yeah, it's a really good point. It was it was like a freelancer experience where Sarah, you know, sends me a draft. I got to send back a couple of suggestions. Sarah sends me a second draft and then I publish that draft. But I was the one who was handling the publishing, to your point.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-23-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":57,"time":"29:54","seconds":1794,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"[OVERLAP] Yep, exactly. So you are the one who is reviewing that content. making a judgment, whether this is good enough for you to publish or not. And your,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-23-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":58,"time":"30:03","seconds":1803,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] With my","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-23-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":59,"time":"30:03","seconds":1803,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"[OVERLAP] it","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-23-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":60,"time":"30:03","seconds":1803,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] context.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-23-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":61,"time":"30:04","seconds":1804,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"[OVERLAP] is your,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-23-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":62,"time":"30:04","seconds":1804,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-23-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":63,"time":"30:04","seconds":1804,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"[OVERLAP] it has to have your context. It has to have","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-23-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":64,"time":"30:06","seconds":1806,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] OK.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-23-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":65,"time":"30:06","seconds":1806,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"[OVERLAP] your tone of writing. It needs to know your recent, uh, short term memory as well, that you just had a conversation with me. Maybe there's one or two things that you learned through this conversation and how do you apply that into the new article, which Sarah doesn't have the context. So bringing all of those things together. If you were to get to a point where Sarah is actually going ahead and publishing that article without your involvement, you need to have trust in their writing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-23-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":66,"time":"30:35","seconds":1835,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Oh man. Uh, all right. You're, this is totally off track now, but, uh, you're, you're giving me all these ideas about commissioning a team of agents to act as, uh, you know, freelance writers for a media business. I mean, maybe we'll pursue that retain a thought. Well, when you come back on in a few months, I'll be like, guess what? Sarah and five others are doing this work for me. But I mean, this is me as an individual, like media company podcast or thinking about this idea. Businesses are much farther along here, right? They have agents who are taking actions. They have verification that's happening around the SQL queries that different agents are running. When you design that harness to ensure accuracy, to ensure that, you know, memories are being pulled in, that broader business context is being pulled in, what kind of loops are you creating within that harness to ensure that the data stays up to date instead of being right at one point and then stale a few weeks later?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":67,"time":"31:28","seconds":1888,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"Yeah. So there's, there's so much to unpack onto that one. You spoke about the loops. So let's start with the context and then come back into the harness as well. The context itself is not a one and done. The business is a living, breathing entity. It keeps changing. New definitions keep coming in. Churn may be good. 10% churn may be good right now. But in a few months, even 5% churn may look bad. So how do you keep up with that changing context? We call it context drift. When the definitions of something are changing and guess what? The best way to capture that drift is to tap into where the conversation is actually happening. The good news is that a lot of conversation is happening within WisdomAI platform as well. Even if somebody is using a chat GPT or a cloud, the conversation is happening via WisdomAI and we do get that visibility. What we have done is built a learning loop within our harness, which is tapping into seeing what all pieces of context have been used for a given answer. And if there's any missing piece of context or there's limited context within an answer, we highlight that upfront. Now that gives us the ability to point out what is the missing piece of context that needs to go in back to the organizational level and ask that SME saying that, hey, looks like the definition is changing here. Are you okay with refining this definition? Or you want to stick with the previous definition. And by the way, here's the evidence of why that we are, why we think the definition is changing. Maybe we saw a Slack thread on that. Maybe there's a new document that has been published, or maybe just because somebody is asking that question and saying that known right now, the definition of churn looks like a new definition.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":68,"time":"33:25","seconds":2005,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Maybe there's a meeting that happened where two of your VPs decided we have to target this metric in particular. And it's so important to be able to pull in all these different sources and to your point, access humans to also weigh them. Because just because I may have said something in a Slack thread, I may not be the decision maker for this. Maybe there is an SME and a key decision maker who are actually making the decision on what churn targets we have. And if the agent starts to prioritize my individual voice where I argue against it and say, no, we should be able to have higher churn, we could have very wrong decisions that start to cascade if we are not careful.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":69,"time":"34:04","seconds":2044,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"[OVERLAP] Yes, and that's what makes context a multiplayer game rather than a single-player game, where there is an SME in the loop who has to be the voice of authority, give it a thumbs up, and say that, yes, this is the definition that we all agree with. If there are definitions that we don't agree with, which means that there are individuals who have their own definitions, then that's more like their individual personalized memory rather than the institution context.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-26-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":70,"time":"34:33","seconds":2073,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, I recently talked to Slack's chief product officer, Jamie DeLange, about this, and I think it's one of the reasons that I see Slack as such a crucial part of the context harness, because most organizations, or at least most tech businesses, are using Slack or Teams or something like that. they have continual conversations going on and you need to be able to ingest that data. But to your point, it also needs to be prioritized against other data sources. And I know that Wisdom has also thought about loops to not only update data but elsewhere in their harness to ensure that the context is staying up to date and that this accuracy and trust is passed forward in the platform. Can you tell me a bit more about how you're designing this overall architecture for the system?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-26-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":71,"time":"35:12","seconds":2112,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"One thing that we see very commonly is that enterprises do not have all their data stored into a single database or a data warehouse or a single system.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":72,"time":"35:21","seconds":2121,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Very rarely.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":73,"time":"35:22","seconds":2122,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"Everybody has so many different data stores. Now, for us to provide intelligence across these data sources, what we need to do is when a new question comes in, we need to understand the intent of the question. and we need to decompose the question into its substituent parts. So what happens is we take the question, we find out various different questions behind the question that now align with the data source that can answer that question. So first thing that happens in that loop is decomposition. and then we are running those queries we are generating the queries we are running executing those queries on different data sources some data source may speak in one dialect of sql another one may speak a python another one is a rag system so it needs to understand and build all of those loops then when it gets the data back, it needs to verify whether it is getting the right information back or not. If there is an error, it needs to self-rectify that error. And then it needs to recompose the response to present it back to the user who is asking the question.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":74,"time":"36:30","seconds":2190,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Tell me a bit more about this error handling. How are you solving this so that users are getting the right updates?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":75,"time":"36:38","seconds":2198,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"[OVERLAP] There are so many different ways we need to do that. I'll give you a very simple example. Let's take one type of a database, Clickhouse, one of the more popular databases that our customers tend to use. The other one is a Snowflake. Now, doing the same question and asking an LLM to write an SQL statement in a Clickhouse dialect versus a Snowflake dialect, the places where the LLMs trip are different. we know where the LLM trips in writing the Clickhouse SQL versus in writing the Snowflake SQL.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-30-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":76,"time":"37:16","seconds":2236,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] This is really fascinating. So there's different tripwires in both of them that are typically causing agents to have problems. Is this an area where you start to use those examples we talked about earlier to help agents to get around these potential pitfalls? Or how are you approaching","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-30-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":77,"time":"37:31","seconds":2251,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"[OVERLAP] Yes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-30-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":78,"time":"37:31","seconds":2251,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] this?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-30-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":79,"time":"37:32","seconds":2252,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"So there's, there's the examples play a major role because it's not like single shot, but then the harness plays the other role, which says that, Hey, we know that when talking about a","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":80,"time":"37:45","seconds":2265,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"time zone conversion in Clickhouse, LLMs, even the best LLMs right now are making a mistake three out of 10 times.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":81,"time":"37:54","seconds":2274,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Now, okay, that's pretty significant.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-32-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":82,"time":"37:56","seconds":2276,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"[OVERLAP] It's a yes. And in those cases, what we need to do is have a specialized deterministic loop, making sure that whenever the question requires that time zone conversion, we can inject a little piece of code onto that ClickHouse code before executing onto the Data Warehouse and letting the query fail.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-32-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":83,"time":"38:16","seconds":2296,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Um, one of the big challenges for enterprises is obviously how many data sources they have access to and the disparate nature of that data. And previously it has taken hours, hours of work from data analytics teams to bring that data together, to build these BI dashboards, to actually ensure that they're centralized, useful data. How is wisdom AI helping unblock enterprises that are struggling to not only bring the data together, but with the cost of doing so?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":84,"time":"38:47","seconds":2327,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"Let me answer that with an example of a real customer use case. This is what was the setup. This is the customer that has many web properties and millions of views on their website. They have been using Google Analytics to capture all of that event's data. and then they had been doing Google Analytics to BigQuery ETL and running a LookML and dashboarding on top of that BigQuery. That was the pipeline. So users come in onto their website, the website is sending an event into Google Analytics, Google Analytics sends all of that data periodically to BigQuery and Looker is running on top of that. This pipeline was costing the millions, especially this ETL portion tied to Looker costs about $5 million a year, given the scale that this company is operating at. And guess what? The way all of this data was getting used was not necessarily on the Looker dashboards. There are people who are going to Slack chat and ask the data team this question that, hey, how many subscribers actually visited the website? And that's actually a pretty difficult question to answer if you think about it, because website visits do not include the subscriber count. You do not know if the visitor is a subscriber or not. So in their case, what they had was a database of subscribers also sitting in BigQuery. And that was the primary reason where they had to bring in the Google Analytics data into BigQuery so they could join the data and answer these questions of how many of the visitors were actually subscribers. With Wisdom, they saved that $5 million worth of pipeline cost. What they did was instead, took Wisdom, connect directly to the Google Analytics MCP, and connect the BigQuery database of subscribers. And when a user asks a question directly in Slack, The wisdom agent is spinning up on the back and it's answering that question. Behind the scenes, what it is doing is, as we mentioned, decomposes the question first. takes the first part of the question, sends it on the Google Analytics MCP to get the response of how many visitors were there and what all visitors. The second part of the question on how many of these are subscribers, it needs to get the subscriber information and do a join between these on the fly and then get the data response back to the user. All of this is happening on the fly in this agentic harness without having to ETL this data into BigQuery. So what this gives us is like a way to federate the data access across all of these systems which are disparate in nature. Google Analytics is talking the language of an MCP. BigQuery is talking its own dialect of SQL. And there may be other information as well, some latest news, some manuals and other documentation. All of that can be federated and the harness does the heavy lifting of joining that information and providing the answer back.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":85,"time":"42:04","seconds":2524,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I mean, this all is part of the emerging discipline that many folks will say sounds familiar of context development life cycle. You know, everyone listening here is probably familiar with the SDLC, the software development life cycle. You have a context development life cycle that is occurring. We've talked about a lot of the parts of it and some of the problems with context drift that we find throughout this, and I think anyone who has to manage a coding agent, or frankly any other type of agent, has probably experienced some context drift themselves. And that only gets worse when you have multiplayer AI, and you and I are both pretty convinced that multiplayer AI is the future, whether it's individuals running mass swarms of agents, or agent swarms running themselves as you've seen with the hugging face hack and other things, but that's another conversation. But for enterprises too, like I can't only be operating my own agents. I have to have my agents be able to interact with your agents, with other team members. They need to be able to work in Slack and understand the context of other business decisions. How do you define this life cycle of context development and how should a business or maybe a team within a business work through transforming from existing dashboards and disparate pieces of context to a more established layer where they can actually have a real life cycle to continue to grow.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":86,"time":"43:29","seconds":2609,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"As a technology industry, we are not at a point where building and managing this context is fully automated. This is actually a pretty big significant missing piece in the LLM's understanding of the enterprise and a pretty defensible mode as well. The companies that we see that are successful with this are the ones that have adopted a new role in the organization. It's called the AI context engineer. We call it ACE. We even have a training that is coming out. It's a free of charge training. Anybody can go take that. It'll be a certification course, just up-leveling the people in the organization.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":87,"time":"44:08","seconds":2648,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] We will link on the show notes, so folks go find that. That's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-36-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":88,"time":"44:10","seconds":2650,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-36-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":89,"time":"44:11","seconds":2651,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] awesome.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-36-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":90,"time":"44:11","seconds":2651,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"[OVERLAP] Awesome. Yeah, thank you. It's pretty straightforward. Wisdom.ai slash ace is where you can find that certification course. And what it is talking about is that, let's say the data analyst who were in the line of questioning. What I mean by that is let's say there's a business user who has a question. They go ask the analyst. Analyst is the one who's interpreting this question, writing, understanding, bringing their context in. translating that into code executing the code onto a dashboard or onto a data warehouse and bringing the results back they were in that loop not anymore because this business leader is now asking their agent the same question so where they need to inject themselves is behind the scenes to power this the context they need to be able to inject the context in that loop to the agent That role is this AI context engineer role. They follow the full CBLC.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-36-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":91,"time":"45:12","seconds":2712,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I know we're still doing it. SDLC, CDLC.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-36-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":92,"time":"45:14","seconds":2714,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"[OVERLAP] Exactly. Yes. But the context development life cycle is, starts with how do we gather all the context that has been documented in the organization, bring that together, make sure it is accessible to the agents and then keep monitoring for this context drift. And as it is getting, uh, getting drifted, uh, keep capturing that as well. Maybe they themselves are those voices of authority who can say that, yes, the definition of churn has changed. Let me go ahead and put that. Or they are the ones who are going and asking the, the person in authority that, Hey, hasn't this changed? Should I make it universally acceptable? Uh, and so on. So that's, that's a new role or a new responsibility for the existing members of the data team that is emerging fast.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-36-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":93,"time":"46:02","seconds":2762,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I think this is interesting in the context of broader concerns for many folks around jobs are going away, AI is taking jobs. And I will just remind our audience, and we've talked about this on the show multiple times, that yes, jobs are changing. You have to be prepared for that change. But there are so many new opportunities that are being created by AI. We are just changing the level of abstraction that people work at and the tasks that people are working at. And personally, I'm very excited that we can potentially do more impactful work around data and analytics. But I know this continues to become more and more complicated as you work with an enterprise that has multiple teams that are committing data and context at the same time. Obviously, there are different priorities across those teams on how to keep context from drifting, what type of context should go in the harness. How should organizations and leaders who are driving these changes think about this multiplayer aspect that we've talked a little bit about in this conversation?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":94,"time":"46:59","seconds":2819,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"Like the first thing to accept is that it's not just a product change. This is a people and the process change as well. So three P's, product, people, and process. They have to accept that. And companies and leaders that have accepted this are the most successful. That's 7% that I was talking about that have been able to scale. One thing that is common across all of them is that they have accepted that this is not just a product change. Now, what does that people and process change mean? From the process perspective, it is similar to what you were talking about just now, which is, it's not just the humans that are interacting with the data, agents are also interacting with the data. So there's a lot more automation that is happening. One needs to accept that, that this is going to happen and trust in the data becomes even more important if somebody is autonomously going ahead and letting them publish an article on Substack, for example. So that trust becomes even more important. So that's the process change. We also need to accept the risk in terms of some of these answers, if not enough context is provided, may not be accurate. So need to build in the processes on when the agent is flagging that, hey, I did not have full context to answer this question. What needs to happen in that case? Maybe they should ask the agent to actually not go ahead and take the action. So that's a process change. The second thing is about the people change. And what we were talking about just now on this ace role, the AI context engineer, that is the other thing that needs to be accepted that the people who were in the position of this data analysis and data engineering, who really understand the business aspects and the data aspect and can really bridge the gap, put them in this position of a context engineer. Let them be the ones who are providing the context into this layer that is powering all the agents in the organization.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":95,"time":"49:06","seconds":2946,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] think to your point, Kabul, we have a change management challenge that leaders and individuals within an organization need to address and not just address. I think it's an opportunity. It's an opportunity to transform your business in a way that can be much more efficient and let you take on these different layers of abstraction. We're seeing teams that are effective, whether with AI coding, whether with AI implement of their go-to-market teams accelerate past those that aren't. But it is not a magic bullet. It may be a magic bullet for an individual if they are spending the time doing this context engineering, this work uh, themselves to build their own individual harnesses, or they're picking up ones that are right size for them and adding context. But when you get to organization scale, and that can be five people, but it's certainly true at a thousand plus, there are many challenges that come in here because of you have processes that are already in there. You have technology that's already built in. You have people that are already steeped in the ways of the organization. They may have a lot of tribal knowledge that you need to contribute. They need to figure out how to pull out of that. And maybe that's because, you know, what I think one of the personal areas where i've seen a huge gain is from ingesting all of my meeting notes and i think we're seeing this for go-to-market organizations in particular where sales people are like fantastic i do want to record all my sales calls i want to pull that data in it's really helpful for me to keep things up to date and avoid context drift to your point But this does require people to manage it. It's not something that systems can do automatically in all cases. We do need human oversight of these. And when these systems are learning from interactions, there is a need to have a structured approach to approvals and improvement. how would you recommend teams go through this approach? And I'll say, we're going to be talking to Cloudera's chief data analytics officer about their change management approach. And in fact, I've actually already recorded it. Don't tell anybody. And one of the things he told me was he was like, look, I don't feel like I did the best job of this. Like I've been working on this for two and a half, three years and, you know, trying to do this internally for my own team. And yet like, there's all these learnings I can take from organizations like yourselves.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-38-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":96,"time":"51:12","seconds":3072,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"[OVERLAP] Yes, 100%. It's a change management, as you rightly said.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-38-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":97,"time":"51:20","seconds":3080,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"Who is in the right position to accept a change in the context that is going to impact all the agents that are using it? is something that the organizations need to decide.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":98,"time":"51:35","seconds":3095,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"No amount of forward deployed engineers can do that because at the end of the day, they are external to the organization. If somebody is thinking about building in an FDE army, bringing them in and help that they are going to build this context, No, the best they can do is go through all of those call recordings and say that, Hey, these are the ones that these are the definitions that I see. There's multiple meanings for this yet. They're going to come back knocking the door of that chief data officer and say that, Hey, who's going to give me the right answer between these two, because I'm saying, I need a decision here. So somebody needs to be in that position of deciding. Otherwise the LLM is deciding for us, which may or may not be right.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":99,"time":"52:22","seconds":3142,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And another thing that I think is really important is having regular checks or loops, as you mentioned, for context drafts. So as an individual developer, I've done this, I built an SSOT check tool where it just checks to make sure that there's a single source of truth and it says, okay, is there drift across my docs and read me, okay, let's fix this, right? And that can work for me as a GitHub action on my repos. But again, like that's only so useful as I start to roll it out to a larger team. I'm an individual, I'm running a very small media org. How do companies handle these challenges? Because, yes, you need to identify people who are going to be the decision makers in these cases, but you also want to automate as much of the underlying grunt work as you can.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":100,"time":"53:06","seconds":3186,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"Yes, 100%. So there's two different dimensions here. First dimension is the type of context that we're talking about. So let's split that into data context and functional context. Data context, think about that as bottoms up. This is how we had designed this data system. This is the modeling of the data. And then on top of that, here is what we have defined as the semantics for that data. The second type of context is this functional or business context. So sticking to our example of churn, the definition, the metric of churn is part of the data context. But is 20% churn good, bad, ugly? Is the functional or the business context on top of that. Now, person in the data team's capacity may or may not be able to define what good, bad, or ugly looks like for that churn, but they are the ones to define what the metric churn looks like when they have to calculate it in SQL.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":101,"time":"54:11","seconds":3251,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And you've tested this actually with and without your harness, my understanding. What kind of data did you see coming out of those tests?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":102,"time":"54:19","seconds":3259,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"[OVERLAP] It's fascinating to see those results. So what we did was, just for context for everybody, what we did was...","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-43-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":103,"time":"54:27","seconds":3267,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I know.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-43-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":104,"time":"54:29","seconds":3269,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"It's everywhere. So what we did was we took the best frontier model at the time. So we took Opus model and we fed it exactly the same context that we fed Wisdom AI. We did a side-by-side comparison. And this has nothing to do with like Claude or Opus. This is essentially a comparison with state-of-the-art versus a specialized harness for a task. What we saw was that the difference was on multiple matrices. The first one was time to value. When you ask a question into Cloud, in this example, it is going through a brute force loop to go find the context across all of the Slack threads, across all of those meeting nodes. It's running multiple tool calls and searching through that to come up with its own best definition. In some cases, it asks back the question and then comes back with the answer. versus wisdom where the context has been provided, it is not going making guesses around that. It is taking a faster, shorter, more optimized path. So there is a 3x difference in the time to getting the first answer. We also saw a 3.4x difference in the cost.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":105,"time":"55:53","seconds":3353,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Interesting, so that's related to tokens spent to actually find the answer. So not only is it faster, but it's spending significantly less tokens.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":106,"time":"56:00","seconds":3360,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"That's exactly right. Yes, it is spending a lot less input as well as output tokens to get the responses back.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":107,"time":"56:08","seconds":3368,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Obviously, we're seeing work start to happen in different places than we're used to. People are using their cloud code or Glean agents to go ask questions, do coding. Customers are spending time in these different surfaces. How does WisdomAI play a role in that?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":108,"time":"56:25","seconds":3385,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"Yeah, so what wisdom does is it provides an MCP server out of the box. It's completely hosted server. Nobody has to do or raise a finger either. Just connect the client where the work is happening with the wisdoms MCP server and the server. is also powered by mcp apps which essentially means that it is not just sending a text response back but it can also send a response in the html react format that if the client is capable it can render it which chat gpt and claude are capable of and other clients are also becoming capable of doing that We recently announced our partnership with OpenAI as well, where the data product that OpenAI announced, which is part of the ChatGPT work suite, Wisdom is powering the data analysis behind that. So if the work is actually happening in ChatGPT, which in a lot of organization is happening like that, when they ask a data question and wisdom is plugged in behind the scenes, the widgets, the answers that they see are powered by wisdom, which essentially gives them the benefit of the cost saving on tokens that we spoke about. And it also gives faster responses with all the governance and the trust that the data team wants to impose on it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":109,"time":"57:43","seconds":3463,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"This seems like a major differentiator when you compare it to traditional approaches to gathering data and context.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":110,"time":"57:49","seconds":3469,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"Yes, 100%. See, the way we need to think about it is in the traditional world, the interface for the end user was a dashboard layer. It was the data team that was building and doing all of the work so that these tools were built for the data team, not really for the end users to build these. End users were the consumers. In this world, end users are the consumers, but then they are doing work on top of that. So what we need to do is meet them where they are. Are they doing work in Slack, in a Glean agent, in a Cloud agent, in a chat GPT, or do they want a specialized interface like a Wisdom AI interface? So we bring all of those things together depending on how that agent wants to interact with it. We have a Slack and Teams app natively available in the platform. We also have an MCP server that plugs into all of these different clients.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":111,"time":"58:49","seconds":3529,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I think this is a crucial piece too, is to not just let people access Wesdem AI where they're already working, but also give developers tools to build on top of and build with Wesdem AI. And another important part of all this architecture you're building is obviously when and where to provide context. You can have static context or you can inject context at runtime. How are you making those","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-50-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":112,"time":"59:11","seconds":3551,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"[OVERLAP] decisions.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-50-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":113,"time":"59:11","seconds":3551,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] decisions?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-50-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":114,"time":"59:12","seconds":3552,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"Yeah. So the, this, this distinction between referenceable static context, which is sitting somewhere in a repository and actually being able to use the context. And we spoke about like the right sizing of the context itself. Too much is problematic and too little is problematic as well. So you just need to find the right balance of the right amount of context. And the decisioning for that is all part of this harness. We call it the context runtime as well. So on the runtime, who is responsible for picking the right piece of context then generating the query code based on that, executing that code, getting the results back, is all tied into the runtime of this context, not just the repository part of the context.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":115,"time":"1:00:08","seconds":3608,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I think this speaks to the value of the idea of harness engineering, which is increasingly being talked about by the industry. We're all talking about how to engineer our harnesses. And it's very clear that specialization around these frontier models can enable you to achieve better results. You know, we talked to Lama Index's Jerry Liu about this earlier this year. about the need to provide incredible context. And from their perspective, they're doing it by saying, okay, we're going to be the best in the world at unlocking context from PDFs. And then you can feed it into a system like Wisdom.ai. And I wonder how much iteration you're having to do, I assume quite a bit, around actually continuing to redevelop your context harness as each new series of models comes out.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":116,"time":"1:00:51","seconds":3651,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"What we've done is we've taken this context building process outside of the loop of a single question when it is getting asked. So think of it as an offline process, part of the CDLC tooling, not in the line of query. What that gives us is the opportunity to actually run that at a set frequency that we determine, rather than when thousands of people are asking questions and every time we are trying to do that brute force. So that gives a major optimization. And whenever a new model comes in, we are using that model in the line of query. It is not impacting how we are building out this context from all the known documented sources right now. So that level of architecture change that we have implemented is giving us the opportunity to leverage the best of the models that come out while not impacting how we build and manage this context.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":117,"time":"1:01:44","seconds":3704,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I've seen your team talk about this idea of right-sizing AI and ensuring that AI systems are aligned to business use cases, to those trust needs. And part of that is that you're building on top of your harness in a way where you have these great models you're working with, you have this harness that is helping keep the data and context around them accurate, and then you're building things like your newly announced live apps on top of that. Can you tell us a bit about how you're thinking about this kind of next layer around or on top of the harness.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":118,"time":"1:02:16","seconds":3736,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"There are two ways to go about any kind of transformation effort. AI transformation is no different from that perspective. One way is to think about, let's just go ahead and transform the whole thing. We want to go from zero to 100 in 2.3 seconds. The other way to think about it is that here is the use case that I have, and let me go ahead and address this use case, and then to the next one, and then to the next one. And by the time I get to the third or the fourth use case, I'll know exactly what the playbook for transformation looks like, and I will be able to scale. We are big proponents of this latter approach. Within Wisdom.ai, we have a concept of a domain, which essentially maps to the use case. let's say somebody wants to do this sales analysis or pipeline analysis in the example that we've been talking about. In that case, you connect your data from Salesforce, you connect the data from the ERP system, you connect the data of the contracts, and all of those things are the ones that can provide a pretty fantastic analysis for the sales operations as well as the pipeline operations there. Now, that is a atomic unit that you can go ahead and address, and that is what we call right-sizing the AI rather than boiling the ocean. And layering in the new feature that we have launched of live apps, which we are very excited about, we're getting tremendous usage on that feature, is essentially, you just give a single prompt, And from that prompt comes out a beautiful application that you can interact with. It's not just read the data from there, but you can use that for right back. You can do use that for what if type analysis or triggering deeper analysis, like root cause analysis, et cetera. And all of that within a matter of minutes, which would have otherwise taken days or weeks for somebody to build.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":119,"time":"1:04:15","seconds":3855,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I appreciate the opportunity to play around with this new live apps feature a bit, because I think one of the really interesting things we've seen is that everyone wants to create a pretty dashboard for themselves. And, you know, we have cloud artifacts, so I will spin up a quick HTML one for you if you want. If you're using coding agents, you can spin up a quick dashboard, sure. You can send it to someone. But live apps seems really differentiated in that it actually is continuing to adapt over time. And it's much more durable, it seems like.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":120,"time":"1:04:42","seconds":3882,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"Yes, and the big difference I'd say is the governance, the boring ticks. We all do white coding, right? Just give a prompt and there comes a beautiful artifact and that's white coded artifact. There's no novelty in that anymore. But all the boring things around that, that when you are accessing versus I am accessing that, are the row-level security features applied? Is the PII information masked? Is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":121,"time":"1:05:13","seconds":3913,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"this hosted at an environment where only the right set of users can access this? Can I go see the SQL or the Python code behind it? And if there is a change that I want to implement, I can go ahead and do that. If my metric definition changes, is it impacting all of the live app that is powered? All of those boring things is what is packaged within this feature of live app.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":122,"time":"1:05:37","seconds":3937,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, just because coding has gotten very cheap as far as a person's time by throwing tokens at it does not mean the architecture, the governance, the decision making around it has also gotten cheap. It in fact has gotten, I would argue, maybe more important because we have these incredible, I guess, spray and praise of code where we can say, yes, I can throw code at it and, you know, eventually I can iterate towards what I need to do. But if I'm able to help guide it from the start, I can be much more effective. So What does the context harness handle that enables more effective dashboard and more effective analytics that a team would otherwise need to spend time on for these kind of generated apps?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-58-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":123,"time":"1:06:19","seconds":3979,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, we were just doing analysis with one of our customers who is migrating all of their 1000 Tableau dashboards over to WisdomAI. And we were doing the math behind that. and so the time it took to build out each of those dashboards in Tableau actually varied but we took an average let's say two and a half weeks of human time which is about 100 hours makes the math easy a thousand dashboards 100 hours each we're talking about 100,000 hours more mind-blowing number if you divide that by 2000 which is the number of hours each of us works in a year it comes to 50 human years wow was the time it took to build those 1000 dashboards.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-58-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":124,"time":"1:07:08","seconds":4028,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I think this is so interesting in the context of coding too, which is again where I think people are seeing these initial gains because we used to spend so much time saying, oh, I need to port this from Linux to Windows or I want to rewrite a system in a new language. I need to re-architect or refactor. And now we can throw coding agents at it, or we can throw these contextual live apps at it. And suddenly we can have a transformation that occurs. And there's still a ton of work to be done on top of that. AI is a magical bullet that is very self-contained. It cannot solve all your problems. You need to do a lot of work around it. And I think, frankly, I think that's the fun part.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-58-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":125,"time":"1:07:45","seconds":4065,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"That exactly is the fun part. And here at Wisdom, we are taking care of all the boring aspects of it. The governance that I spoke about, the caching behind that, all of that stuff, nobody wants to build that. They just want to kind of send out this prompt and get the beautiful artifact and be able to share that within 10 minutes rather than the hundred hours that we spoke about.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":126,"time":"1:08:08","seconds":4088,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I have to admit that's a compelling pitch here. So, okay, you know, we're using this phrase live apps. What does live mean in this context? What's refreshing and how does someone know when and if data is accurate?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":127,"time":"1:08:22","seconds":4102,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"[OVERLAP] yeah so it's not just a static html that we produce this the html and the react application that we produce is actually connected behind the scenes into the into the live database or the data warehouse or the context repository it is using the whole wisdom harness as well as the context layer that we just spoke about And all of the queries are connected live, which means that whenever somebody is refreshing that live app, they are getting the latest data. The other improvement that we have done within this is that, let's say there are 100 people in the organization who are going ahead and using the same application. we're not going to the data warehouse and sending those 100 queries individually we have built a caching layer in between so we're only sending that once and the rest of the 99 people are just getting served through the cache which is still the latest data but at one percent of the compute","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-60-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":128,"time":"1:09:19","seconds":4159,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Huge token savings there. And I'm curious, are you transitioning most of your internal dashboard into live apps, or are you still holding certain things in, say, a conventional dashboard or spreadsheet or other form of data?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-60-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":129,"time":"1:09:35","seconds":4175,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"The purpose of the dashboard, which had existed for so long, is not changing. It is not going away anywhere. We all want to monitor our business through KPIs, right? These are the metrics that matter to us. So that essence, that idea does not go away. The format in which that gets represented is changing beneath our feet right now. So many years we've been building out these dashboards and these legacy tools. Now we are in this new era. We're building out live apps with a single prompt. So at Wisdom, we do not use any other dashboarding product all our operations are running on VisDim, and most of our customers are also transitioning away from Tableau Power BI Looker into VisDim AI for their dashboarding needs.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":130,"time":"1:10:24","seconds":4224,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It's fascinating to see how the abstraction layers we operate on with AI have rapidly changed. It used to be if I was coding, I would be reading the code. And frankly, I'm typically not reading most code these days. I often am not doing code review myself, or at least I am taking a level of abstraction where I'm not reading the specific line-by-line code. Instead, I'm having multiple models that are doing that review for me and then are reporting back to me. I have friends who have transitioned to, I guess, almost a dashboard situation with their code, where they're saying, hey, I actually want a constantly generated artifact that runs alongside my coding window that shows the architecture of this harness I'm developing and how things are moving. So I can see, oh, look, now this has been lost or is no longer necessary. But AI can code faster than we can. It can write faster than we can. We have to change the extraction layer we operate at. And data is obviously a huge example here. I mean, we've seen to mention the hugging face hack again we if anyone who read the meter investigation or have seen anything about it they had to use agents as their front line to understand this because there were so many conversations that happened and you as a human we just simply don't have enough human hours to handle all the data we now have available to us today so it's crucial that we start to have these loops that can build this data for us and have agents that operate across these dashboards So, I'm curious to understand from you, as you have transitioned your organization to all running within these wisdom analytics, within web apps, what kind of agents do you have operating across these dashboards to help with context management, to help with identifying trends and those sort of things?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":131,"time":"1:12:08","seconds":4328,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"One of the most recent live apps. So this is a recency bias on this one. I was just doing it over the weekend. One of the most recent ones that I've built is to monitor my pipeline within the company. And that pipeline, essentially the thing that I wanted to monitor was pretty unique. It wasn't that which deal is in what stage of the pipeline. What I wanted to see was that in the last week, which deals have transitioned from one stage to the other. And for each stage, I wanted to see how many deals have progressed, or if there are any that have regressed. And I wanted a specialized visualization just for that. And I wanted to be able to filter when I click that bar in the chart and all of those things. And this was one of the ideas that I got while taking the stroll. And I came back, gave it a prompt, and in in less than 10 minutes I had this working application which now I have subscribed to. So every Monday morning as it gave one this Monday morning before my pipeline review meeting with the team I am getting that in my inbox on what changes have happened. So the meeting that I'm having with the team now in that pipeline review has completely changed. I am not asking them for that information. Now what I'm doing is asking them where can I help in making these deals progress even faster.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":132,"time":"1:13:34","seconds":4414,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I think that's a fantastic example of this changing abstraction layer and being able to just ingest and understand data faster. And it's interesting to bring it up, this idea of a pipeline dashboard, because obviously, you know, we've been using pipeline dashboards and go to market for a long time, but the effectiveness of them has been variable depending on how good our SEs and our sales folks are at actually putting information into our systems. And I love my sales people most of the time, but they maybe are not always the best about data entry. And I worked at a previous organization where just last year we tried to vibe code a similar version of the dashboard. And the problem we had was around data management of it and keeping it up to date. And it was extremely useful at first, but rapidly we started to have problems with it getting out to date and we had to do a lot of fine tuning to actually get it to work over time. What kind of data and definitional work do you feel like needs to be in place first to enable this kind of next layer of analytics that can unlock you to spend more time on crucial unblocking routine numbers?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":133,"time":"1:14:39","seconds":4479,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"Yeah, and the answer there is context. And that context on what I'm asking for, is there sufficient information for the LLM to be able to generate the right set of queries for that? That is what it boils down to. Now that's such a amorphous definition that there's no way to know whether this is sufficient or not. Have I put in enough context or not? So what's important to do is the other way around, which is when that app has been built. What Wisdom does is highlight each of those sections in the app and says that, hey, this one I had full confidence because everything here was powered by the context that you have provided. But this is where some of the context was missing. So this is the widget where I want you to go ahead and double click and make sure that whatever assumptions I made, which Wisdom highlight, are correct or not. If there are some assumptions that are not correct, then it asks for me to go ahead and provide those corrections. If I say that they're all correct assumptions, then that goes into the learning loop and back into the context layer.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":134,"time":"1:15:53","seconds":4553,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"How are you thinking about the ownership of this app or other apps over time? Who should be responsible for ensuring these updates as they become business critical live applications that are now being used in a weekly pipeline meeting or something else?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":135,"time":"1:16:12","seconds":4572,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"AI should be responsible for that. This needs to be completely automated. Otherwise, we will be swimming in the sea of these apps and dashboards that we've always found this trouble in. Like the 1,000 dashboard example that I was talking about. Should there really be 1,000 dashboards for the business to run? Absolutely not. only the right ones, like on average, and Forrester did this study, only 20% of the dashboards actually get utilized in the organization. And less than 20% of the people who have bought a BI product actually use it, they're active users of the BI product. And that's a big gap. Companies are just spending so much money on shelfware that is getting produced. Now, if there are humans or processes built to go ahead and keep these things updated, we will run into the same problem, unless there is an automation. And that is why the name Live Apps, because you do not need to go ahead and update these once it is built. It always stays up to date. It is completely automated.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":136,"time":"1:17:27","seconds":4647,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"How do you think about the role of context engineers or data engineers in this new life cycle of how data is being used and leveraged?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":137,"time":"1:17:37","seconds":4657,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"They are no longer in the business of providing insights. That's just the reality. They are now in the business of providing context, so the insights are accurate. And that is a shift in the responsibilities. Just last week, I had this webinar with my dear friend and a passionate customer from Rubrik. And what they did was, they were talking about how their processes have changed. And one of the things that fascinated me completely was that in the world prior to wisdom, what they were doing was every dashboard the team had to build, they had to go ahead and build a go to the data prep area, go ahead and build a model for that, and then tie the dashboard to that model. So which means that If you take the iceberg analogy, the dashboard is the tip of the iceberg and everything beneath that is also powering that single dashboard. So the biggest transition that has happened for their team is that they've only had to build that definition once in this context layer within Wisdom and all of the dashboards or live apps are now just a prompt away.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":138,"time":"1:18:56","seconds":4736,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"We have a lot of developers who listen to the show and many of them are looking to unblock, not just themselves, but their teams. Often they're partnering with data engineers and folks who are on the data side. How can developers use the Wisdom AI MCP to unblock themselves and create more value?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":139,"time":"1:19:15","seconds":4755,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"Yeah, so Wisdom AI provides the MCP server, not just for the consumption of the data, but also for building out these domains. And the context management aspect of it, if somebody is building their own context harness around a cloud code or a codex, for example, they can very easily plug in the Wisdom's domain MCP servers and start to build out those domains in Wisdom.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":140,"time":"1:19:43","seconds":4783,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"What would you say to people who are maybe doubtful about handing off their context management to another company? Maybe they've gotten used to a lot of the toil involved with this.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":141,"time":"1:19:55","seconds":4795,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"Context is the IP of the company and it needs to stay with the company. They should have the ability to take that context with them anytime, even if they want to rip apart the vendor that they have selected for this context management. So it's very important. And in case of Wisdom, what we do is our context is portable. the customer can click a button and download the context in our standard YAML format, or in the Google's OKF format, or in the Apache Aussie format. With a click of a button, they can download that, or they can even set up a Git repository for their context, where Wisdom will keep writing back into that Git for their context. So the context belongs to the customer, and with Wisdom, we make sure that they get to keep it, even if they have Wisdom or not.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-73","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":142,"time":"1:20:48","seconds":4848,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Well, thank you so much for this conversation. I really appreciate you taking us through your perspective on the context development lifecycle, how wisdom is approaching analytics, live apps, and so much more. What closing thoughts do you have for us about what this new world of context engineering and changing agent analytics look like?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-74","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":143,"time":"1:21:07","seconds":4867,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"It all seems like there is so much that is changing fast underneath us. The one thing that I want to kind of assure everybody of is that any work that they have already put in in AI data readiness or data cleansing or building the semantic layer or their catalogs, none of that, even the BI dashboards, none of that goes to waste. The right system actually leverages and reuses all of that and builds upon that rather than having the company start from scratch. So that's the, that's the biggest learning for me that we do not want any of the human work that has happened to go waste. That's actually more crucial than ever at this time.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-75","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":144,"time":"1:21:52","seconds":4912,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And for folks who have stuck with us throughout this conversation, A, thank you, and B, would love to hear from you in the comments around what you found interesting or what areas you want us to explore next time. Couple, what's the best place for folks to go to learn more about Wisdom.AI?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-76","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":145,"time":"1:22:07","seconds":4927,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"It's as simple as you just said it, wisdom.ai.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-77","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":146,"time":"1:22:10","seconds":4930,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Make sure to check out all the data from this survey at wisdom.ai slash CDO dash report. If you are interested in taking the new course that Wisdom.ai is offering, you can learn more about that at wisdom.ai slash ace. And if you want to try out Wisdom.ai's live apps, you can go to wisdom.ai slash live apps.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-78","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":147,"time":"1:22:36","seconds":4956,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"[OVERLAP] Conor, thank you so much. Had so much fun doing this. Everybody who's listening, please rate and review this podcast. I'm sure it means a lot to Conor and also hit that subscribe button. Thank you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-78-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":148,"time":"1:22:47","seconds":4967,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Thank you so much for having me down to the Wisdom AI offices. It's been fantastic chatting with you and I'm super excited to continue to explore the world of context engineering and context harnesses with you in the future.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-78-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra","episode":75,"guid":"a66d5155-a2be-40a2-af8c-4e4a6557fa77","episodeTitle":"Why Context Alone Isn't Enough for Enterprise AI Agents | WisdomAI CPO Kapil Chhabra","publishedAt":"2026-09-24","segmentIndex":149,"time":"1:22:58","seconds":4978,"speaker":"Kapil Chhabra","text":"Fantastic. It was great to have you here and it was a lovely conversation. Thank you so much.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/75-why-context-alone-isnt-enough-for-enterprise-ai-agents-wisdomai-cpo-kapil-chhabra/#t-79","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"Reverse a linked list in Java is not a thing anyone's ever going to need to do ever again. Would I advise somebody to spend 15 grand on a, on a bootcamp? I'm not sure that I would anymore. Agents write code faster than we could ever have written code. The type in the code is going to happen by somebody else now. So you have to, you have to get there in your thoughts. The thing that you used to find in senior developers, which we called product sense. which was not just how to build it, but what to build in the first place, is becoming absolutely central to the job. It used to be called a systems analyst in like the 60s. That was their job, was translating business requirements into software requirements without writing any software. That job is coming back, and we're going to call it a product engineer.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:44","seconds":44,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"AI has made code generation cheap, but shipping trustworthy software is still expensive and difficult. Most teams are responding by either letting agents run a bit wild, or they're slowing them down until the productivity gains start to disappear. We're going to talk about it today on Chain of Thought. I'm your host, Conor Bronsdon, and joining me is Lori Voss, who many of you may know. Laurie is a co-founder of NPM, a developer with decades of experience, a well-known writer, I highly recommend his stuff, and head of developer relations at Arise. Laurie, it is great to see you. How are you feeling about this current explosion of code generation and the moment we're experiencing in AI?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":2,"time":"1:21","seconds":81,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"Hey, thanks for having me.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:25","seconds":85,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"So many thoughts about what's going on in the world right now. I think my overwhelming feeling is that it's positive, which is not a universally held sentiment, I think. I think there's a","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":4,"time":"1:43","seconds":103,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"lot of people for whom code was a craft, where getting the syntax just right and making the code look pretty and getting exactly the algorithm that they wanted was the whole job for them. And it's going away. And there's no sugarcoating it, right? Agents write code faster than we could ever have written code.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":5,"time":"2:11","seconds":131,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"So that means we're in a different world now.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":6,"time":"2:16","seconds":136,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It's interesting. I've come to recognize that my acceptance of AI coding is very related to the fact that I've never been a great software engineer. I've always been obvious. I have never been a full-time developer who's extremely good at the craft of code. And so for me, I'm like, amazing. I can take on the TPM role, the semi-team lead role that I am much better suited for than being the frontline developer. And so it's easy for me, but I do see this challenge for a lot of folks where so much of their identity has been wrapped up in not just the problem-solving part of engineering, but in being excellent at these pieces of their craft. And it's definitely difficult. How do you recommend folks adjust to this new reality? Because I do think we need to adjust to it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":7,"time":"3:03","seconds":183,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"Hoof.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":8,"time":"3:06","seconds":186,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"I was just talking yesterday to a very good friend of mine who's been in software development about as long as I have, which is a pretty long time. And he's one of those crafts people. And his solution to the change was he's going to retire.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":9,"time":"3:23","seconds":203,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"And I was like, well, that is one way of solving the problem of thinking like you're not needed anymore is just not being needed anymore. That is not an option available to most people. I think the most positive way that I've seen it put is for a lot of people, the fun part of coding is the aha moment where you've got from I have this messy amorphous problem to I think I have figured out how to solve this problem in a precise and repeatable way. And some people did that by typing the code. And some people did that by thinking about it and then typing the code. And the change you have to make in your mindset is that the typing the code is going to happen by somebody else now. So you have to you have to get there in your thoughts. You have to figure out the preciseness. uh you know in language um you know and you can do it in pseudocode if that helps you um but it's not it's probably not going to be the fastest way to do it uh by you know doing essays of code and trying out various algorithms like the the agents are going to be better at that than you are","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":10,"time":"4:38","seconds":278,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"We're definitely going to talk a lot more about this topic, but I would be remiss if I didn't mention our presenting sponsors for this episode who are helping make this transition happen for many people. Inngest, Svix, Walrus Memory, and G2i have been kind enough to sponsor Chain of Thought this season, and you're going to hear a lot more about them as the season goes on and probably later in this episode. But as we all navigate this change in how the craft of engineering is occurring, It's starting to go beyond cogeneration. We're seeing math problems get solved. We're seeing millennium prizes fall. I think there's still an argument that the models aren't that good at writing yet, and that many of these, call it less clearly solvable tasks, are going to hold up for a while longer. But it's very clear that as humans, we're having to interact with the tools we use, in this case AI, very differently than we did six months ago, let alone two years ago. How are you advising people who are either entering the industry today to or are looking to retool to build those goals? So you mentioned like thinking through the problems, focusing on that clarity of thought, the precision of the architecture. But what are the other things that we should be learning or doing?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":11,"time":"5:49","seconds":349,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"That's an excellent question. And I don't think anybody knows yet. I don't think we have a great answer. I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":12,"time":"5:59","seconds":359,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"think it's clear that, like, you know, university level courses in programming are already feeling very anachronistic. Like, you know, build, you know, reverse a linked list in Java is not a thing anyone's ever going to need to do ever again. So it depends what time frame you're thinking of. If you're thinking next two to five, or if you're thinking ten years from now, those are two very different sets of things, I think, that we have to look at. In the two to five time frame, there's a bunch of stuff that humans used to do that the agents are still not good enough at yet. Like right now, code reviews. I would say the best code review AI tools that I've seen have like an 80% hit rate. And an 80% hit rate is really good, but it's not enough to put stuff out into production, right? You can't mess up 20% of the time and ship that's not going to work out. So there's still scope for senior level code reviews, obviously AI assisted, you can get the 80% done and focus on the last 20%, which is very important given how much more code is being produced. But there's still human insight there. And then there's a bunch of stuff that the agents are just not good at at all right now. operations is one. Like, I don't see anybody saying, okay, I've written this piece of code. I'm going to ask an agent to deploy it. I'm going to ask an agent to figure out what hardware it should go on and how many pieces of hardware and connecting those pieces of hardware together. um that is still a thing humans are doing and it's not a thing that they are trained on very much um and when i've uh so i expect i expect the asians will get there i expect it will be a thing that they are good at 10 years from now but deploying the software, refactoring the software, architecting the software in the first place, and scaling it up.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":13,"time":"8:13","seconds":493,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Hmm.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":14,"time":"8:15","seconds":495,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"Those are definitely tricky, subtle areas where you need a lot of domain expertise and you need a lot of stuff that we have never written down. which I've seen referred to as tacit information, which is a thing that agents are notably bad at, and they'll continue to be bad at it for the next five years. So we don't have to do everything overnight, I guess, is the positive news. You don't have to, like, completely reskill and all, you know, every programming job in the world isn't going to vanish overnight. But over the next five years, we do need to, a whole lot of people do need to do a whole lot of retooling.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":15,"time":"8:51","seconds":531,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I do think there's a challenge here as far as the gap between getting started in the industry and folks who are farther along. It's a lot easier for people who have, you know, tacit knowledge, tribal knowledge, who have experience to take advantage of some of the execution gains these tools provide and leverage models and help guidance their models than I think it is for many folks who are early in career and are just trying to figure out the basics. And it does feel like we have an increasing gap here. You mentioned university coursework and how it's seemingly falling behind. I'm not sure I would go to college today if I was 17, 18 years old. Would that be the best use of my time compared to trying to spend a lot more time building and maybe get some internships or something? I'm not sure. Now, am I going to land an internship without an authoritative logo behind my name? Who knows? It's tough for me to reckon with, like, what would I advise a very early career professional or someone who is trying to get to their career? And I'm curious","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-14-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":16,"time":"9:51","seconds":591,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"[OVERLAP] I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-14-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":17,"time":"9:51","seconds":591,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] what you would say to those folks.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-14-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":18,"time":"9:54","seconds":594,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"think it depends very much on what kind of course you've been doing. For the last 15 years, there have been a lot of boot camps. And I have always been a big fan of boot camps because they get people going relatively cheaply, relatively quickly.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":19,"time":"10:13","seconds":613,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"But boot camps are very code focused. They're very much like, learn this particular framework. And that is much less relevant now. So, you know, would I advise somebody to spend 15 grand on a bootcamp? I'm not sure that I would anymore. University courses vary a lot. There are some universities which are very hands on, very like, here's how to reverse a linked list. This is how you write code. This is how you do stuff. And there are other more theoretical courses which are like, this is what, you know, this is what big O notation means. And this is what This is how you think about complexity, and this is how you do a mathematical proof","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":20,"time":"10:57","seconds":657,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"that your software is correct. Those high-level things are still valuable. They are not hands-on stuff that you use every day, but they give you an idea about how to think about the more complicated parts of our profession.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":21,"time":"11:17","seconds":677,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"And as you say, there is a certain amount of privilege in being able to say, I don't think I would go to college, right? It's a thing that white guys can say, is what a friend of mine has put it to me, is like, because you can just walk into a job anyway, whereas everybody else needs a degree that says, hey, this person is legit before they can land an internship, before they can get their foot on the ladder. But your broader point about what does the ladder look like is very much in flux right now. I think all of the same skills that I was just talking about people retooling into, so architecture, operations, scaling, complexity, design, all of those things are things that can be taught. And if you look carefully, there are people already teaching them. But you have to look a lot more carefully than you used to.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":22,"time":"12:16","seconds":736,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"When you say, you know, you have, you need to look more carefully at what's being taught and where are you thinking specific to coursework? Are you thinking about more of the free online learning that's out there? You know, how would you go through this process granularly, uh, if you were starting on your career today?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":23,"time":"12:36","seconds":756,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"[OVERLAP] Gosh, it's so tricky. If I was literally just going to college for the first time, I would look for a high-level CS course that is more theoretical than practical. So I wouldn't be like, you know, the nuts and bolts of Java, which is what they were teaching when I went to the university 25 years ago. They probably teach other things now.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-19-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":24,"time":"12:56","seconds":776,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I think that was my first CS course I ever took. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-19-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":25,"time":"12:59","seconds":779,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":26,"time":"13:04","seconds":784,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"So I would go for a course that is deliberately more theoretical. And I would probably look into, there are courses that blend in humanities into computer science. at various universities where they're like, and we will teach you how to think about the philosophy of computation, and we will teach you how to think about the business of software. Those sorts of things that previously a programmer might have considered tangential, they are becoming the whole job. This is something I wrote about recently. I wrote a blog post called we are all product engineers now. And the thesis of that was basically the thing that you used to find in senior developers, which we called product sense. Which was not just how to build it, but what to build in the first place is becoming absolutely central to the job. So that is the skill set that I would be looking for is like what skills can I learn that will help me figure out how to decide what to build, rather than how to build it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":27,"time":"14:14","seconds":854,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Season 4 of Chain of Thought is delivered by Svix. We spend a lot of time talking about what agents need in production, and one of the least glamorous answers is events. Your customers want agent workflows that react to things happening inside your system, which means your API needs webhooks that actually work. Not just a post request and a prayer, retries, ordering, idempotency, replay protection. Svix does that as a service, and they wrote standard webhooks, the spec that Anthropic, OpenAI, and Google bailed against. So if your API doesn't have reliable webhooks, that's turning into a lost deal. Join Brex, Drata, Daytona, and many others on Svix. Get started at link.svix.com slash c-o-t or go to the show notes to grab the link. Qualified startups will get $12,000 in credits. $50,000 for YC companies. I can't recommend Svix enough. I'm a huge fan of their open source project. I've actually contributed a bit myself and they're so easy to integrate with. I think you'll really enjoy it. Check out Svix at link.svix.com slash C-O-T. I feel like we've gone a little dark in the start, right, where it's like this really challenging moment in software to get started. But it's also a magical time right now where we're able to do things with a computer we have never been able to do before. We're able to turn ideas into code and see them appear before us with less physical effort than we ever have before. And I wonder if you see parallels to other periods or other experiences you've had throughout the industry.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":28,"time":"15:55","seconds":955,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"The","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":29,"time":"15:59","seconds":959,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"parallel that I draw all the time is that AI right now is like the web in 1997. So if you consider the sort of birth of the web, when it exploded, to be 1994, which is sort of like roughly when the AOL exploded and everybody suddenly was online for the first time. Three years elapsed from 1994 to 1997 and a whole bunch of stuff had changed. A whole bunch of stuff had gone really crazy. You know, there was an incipient bubble. There were massive changes to what people were learning and what people thought that they could build and all that kind of stuff. But it was still super early. 1997 isn't even 1999, right? Like, 1999 was sort of like peak bubble. and there were two more years to go before we hit that. And so I feel that's basically where we are. Like, if you consider 2023 to be when everything really kicked off for AI, you know, late 2022 maybe, then we're in 1997 right now, and even though it feels like everything has changed, we are just getting started. We do not know where this stuff is going to shake out. We do not know who the big players are going to be. Like, who was the big internet player in 1997 versus who did it actually turn out to be? Those are quite different companies. If people are feeling like they've missed the boat and their skills are behind, now is still really early. You can absolutely jump on right now and have a really great time, you know, until the bubble pops, which it will.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":30,"time":"17:41","seconds":1061,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, it's interesting. I, you know, I'm a huge believer in the technology. It's obviously reshaping the world and where we're at. Are many companies in a bubble of valuation? Sure. For sure. I mean, like there, there's definitely going to be some of that. And I'm, I'm very interested to see who is durable here. I do think the model companies are going to be durable for the frontier labs. Um, but far be it for me to, to know for sure by any means. And it does feel like we may be. overestimating what AI can do this year, today, right now, at times, while underestimating how it's going to reshape the economy in the next couple of years.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":31,"time":"18:19","seconds":1099,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"Yeah, I mean, what we're seeing right this week is, you know, three of the major model labs all going, whoa, whoa, whoa, we need to slow down and think about things. Which is a very strange thing to see from three of them simultaneously. um uh and that is because if you're deep inside of it um the rate of change the rate the pace of improvement is such that you see an exponential growth curve and exponential growth curves are counterintuitive they are humans are really really bad at extrapolating what is going to happen when exponential growth kicks off, even when they know it's exponential growth. And I had a lot of really direct experience with this when I was working at NPM, because NPM grew exponentially for 10 years. And every year we were like, well, this is the year that downloads will sort of taper off and we'll be able to get our scaling up to snuff because it can't possibly grow this fast forever. And it did it every year for 10 years. So, and that's the same thing people inside the labs are going, they're going like, this is really fast. And if you look to where we were a year ago versus where we are now and say that we're going to be, you know, five times better than that, 10 times better than that another year from now, then that is an even more dramatic change. So maybe we should stop and think about that. But I temper that with having been around long enough that I've seen lots of bubbles. And we are certainly in a","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":32,"time":"20:07","seconds":1207,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"valuation bubble and a hype bubble when it comes to AI. Like, there's a whole bunch of stuff that they can do. And unless we literally invent AGI and a super intelligent robot takes over all of the economy and everything that humans do and turns us into sort of treasured pets, It's going to be a normal technology. It's going to be, you know, we're going to hit the hype cycle. We're going to hit the Pico hype cycle. People are going to go, oh, no, actually, AI was useless and it could never do anything. And valuations are going to collapse. And a lot of people will lose their shirts. And then we'll slowly climb up back to roughly where we thought we'd get to, but it will take us much longer than we thought. That is my Bayesian priors on how bubbles go, and it is how I think this one will go as well. People are extremely hyped right now, and I do not think that we are going to invent, you know, I don't know if you've ever read the culture novels by Iain M. Banks, but they're set in the universe where super intelligent AIs basically keep humans as pets, even though the humans don't actually have anything to do. And I don't think we're going to do that. I don't think I don't think predicting tokens one after the other is going to get us there. So I think it's just going to be a normal technology that changes a lot of stuff and makes things go a lot faster and does a lot of changes to the economy. But it's not going to be this super intelligence that that that ends the economy.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":33,"time":"21:48","seconds":1308,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] It's a really interesting question and I vacillate a bit on my expectations around this, but I do think part of the challenge here is that for a lot of people using the term AGI a ton. And I think if you showed me Codex or Claude Code today, four years ago, I'd be like, oh, this is AGI. Like, my God, what can I do with code here? But it's not ASI. It's not super intelligence. And I think that is the really important thing to remember. We can get caught up in the definitions, but assuming we don't get to super intelligence that does turn us into pets or, you know, kills us all, who knows? Anytime soon. You know, we are in a situation where certain things are getting solved, like coding. And we are able to execute much faster. We're able to hand off work much more easily. And we're seeing this already affect how companies are structured. You know, we saw Block decide to lay off, what, 40% of their staff at the start of this year. And now we can comment on whether that was positive for them and how that went, and they've certainly done more hiring since then. But we're seeing vast restructures that are at least excused and explained from them from an AI perspective. We're seeing","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-27-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":34,"time":"22:58","seconds":1378,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"[OVERLAP] Mm-hmm.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-27-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":35,"time":"22:58","seconds":1378,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] companies stay smaller for longer, and people try","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-27-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":36,"time":"23:00","seconds":1380,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"[OVERLAP] Mm-hmm.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-27-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":37,"time":"23:00","seconds":1380,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] to found small companies that can do much more in revenue. And it does seem to be reshaping how companies work. And I don't know that anyone's quite figured out how a company is going to look in the next couple of years based off of how many agents we're all starting to run.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-27-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":38,"time":"23:14","seconds":1394,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"I've written about this as well, actually. On my blog, I did a bunch of research, or rather, I got an agent to do a bunch of research about employment stats and Bureau of Labor Statistics things. Really great stuff to point an agent at, by the way. Just like, look at 500 spreadsheets and figure out a trend, please. And what you said is true. Companies are staying smaller for longer. They are more capital intensive per human. So people are putting more money in, but hiring fewer people. And that is a, the optimistic reading of that is that that is a productivity gain. these companies are being vastly more productive per individual human employed. And people go, oh, that means everybody will have no jobs anymore. No, that's not how the economy works. Usually, if you have, if you can do things more efficiently, it means that things that wouldn't previously have simply not got done, get done instead. So those people who are not going into company A, they form company B, and company B tackles some problem that previously was not economical to tackle. So, you know, the net effect is more stuff gets done more efficiently, and that's better for everyone. That is generally, you know, that is the lesson of the industrial revolution, was that, you know, getting a machine to do what 500 people used to do didn't mean that there were 500 people around sitting kicking their heels. Those 500 people found other things to do, and the whole economy grew.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":39,"time":"24:57","seconds":1497,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Season four of Chain of Thought is presented by Walrus Memory, the portable memory layer for AI agents. Your agent has learned your code base and how you work. Now you want to use that context in another tool. Exporting a file gives you a snapshot, but what happens when the context changes? Walrus Memory is a portable memory layer that lets your agent store context for later use across tools. Python and TypeScript SDKs plus native MCP support let you connect it to your agents no matter where they are. You said who can read and write, so sharing context doesn't mean opening up your whole memory store. If you're building across tools or model families, take a look at Walrus memory. Learn more at walrus.xyz slash COT. That's walrus.xyz slash COT. And I will say, I personally think we are in a new industrial revolution. I know the term revolution is being overdone with AI, but it does feel like we're in that kind of moment as long as we can get the inputs right around data, electricity, et cetera. And I will also, since you didn't plug it yourself, you said you mentioned it's on your blog, but seldo.com is Laurie's blog and is highly recommended. I will certainly link it in the show notes. Got to got to plug that. Speaking of that blog, you recently wrote about product engineering, which we've talked a little bit about. but you've also written about open source and how open source is being impacted by AI. I'd love to get some of your thoughts around what we're seeing in the push and pull between open source models and open source code in today's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-28-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":40,"time":"26:28","seconds":1588,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"[OVERLAP] Mm-hmm.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-28-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":41,"time":"26:29","seconds":1589,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"ecosystem.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":42,"time":"26:29","seconds":1589,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"So I'll set open source models to the side for a little while because that's a very interesting topic and I want to talk about it, but it's different from the effect on open source code. So open source code is the vast majority of software that gets run is open source. It's a thing that people don't think about very often. Like if you think about like instances of running software, the vast majority of it is in fact open source. And then there's like a little sort of icing layer of closed source running on top of it. And the closed source makes all the money, but the open source is doing all of the work.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":43,"time":"27:06","seconds":1626,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"What I went looking for when I was researching the post about open source, which was mostly about how you fund open source and where does the money come from, was that open source is sort of the canary in the coal mine of where software is going to go. Because there's so much of it and because so much of it is open, it moves surprisingly quickly. And so they felt the problems that other companies are just beginning to feel really early on. They were like, we are drowning in slop. There are a zillion billion AI agent PRs landing on our repo. We can't possibly review them all. And they felt that a solid six months before every other company was like, we've started generating code so fast that we don't know how to review it. And they haven't solved that problem, but they felt it first. And they also have experienced","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":44,"time":"28:11","seconds":1691,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"the disruption of the cost of code going to zero, which is a really good example. I think it was Cloudflare released a sort of clean room re-implementation of WordPress. I forget what they called it, but they were like, here, here's WordPress without all of the cruft. And it runs perfectly. And we cloned it in a week and spent $100,000 worth of tokens on it. And that was at a time when there was a lot of turmoil in the WordPress project. And a point I made in the post is that this has always been a force in open source software. It's why MIT and other permissive licenses tend to win, is because if you try to come up with an open source project that is slightly less open, that is slightly less permissive, something that, for instance, charges you for access to binaries or something like that, it immediately loses to a fork of the same code that has an MIT license instead. And people, you know, rapidly aggregate around those most open alternatives. And that keeps open source as open as it can possibly be. It makes it very hard to fund open source, but in general it's a positive force. And that is going to start happening to closed source software. Again, it's not happening quite yet because there's, you know, operations and scaling and the other things that we talked about that are more than just, you know, I have cloned Salesforce in my repo in two weeks.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":45,"time":"29:59","seconds":1799,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"But they're absolutely going to get there. Closed source software is going to find that somebody with a weekend and a whole bunch of tokens is going to clone their idea without stealing any of their code. And that is going to disrupt what they can charge for and how they charge for it. And that is going to produce a lot more open source, is my prediction, as the cost of generation goes to zero.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":46,"time":"30:26","seconds":1826,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I mean, I think we're seeing this for a lot of individual developers who are saying, oh, I don't want to buy a tool for this side project. I'm just going to build it. You know, there's been some hackathons. I participated in one of Svix's latent space kill my sass hackathons where it's like, hey, try cloning this project. And, you know, we're given a weekend and it's like, okay, let's let's clone","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":47,"time":"30:49","seconds":1849,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"our version of event management software. I'm not going to say that you can necessarily do a full clone that has feature parity that is as strong as software that's been worked on for ages, because as much as I think everyone wants a clown on SaaS, there is value behind this. And particularly if you're an enterprise, it's like, okay, I have security concerns, I have compliance concerns, I have role-based access concerns. But for simple use cases, like I'm not going to pay for SEO software for my podcast right now. I'm going to build something simple with free tools that can, you know, do that. I'm not going to pay for social listening software for my podcast and, you know, track all these forums out like what's getting mentioned. I'm, you know, there's free versions already I can build on top of and I can, you know, throw my codecs or Claude Code agents at it. and this kind of personal software era is definitely developing for I think folks who have some engineering priors. I am going to be really interested to see how much it expands into the broader world though because The truth is that most people don't really want to spend their time building a personalized software stack. They probably just want to use Meta's Muse, which is much easier to pick up and can do most of the things as well as they need it to. And frankly, so do I sometimes. So I'm curious if you think we're going to see an explosion in personalized software outside of, you know, a core group of developers who want to throw code at things. as the models get better and as people get broader access to code development or is this going to be fairly","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":48,"time":"32:28","seconds":1948,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"centralized right now in like a certain grouping of people?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":49,"time":"32:32","seconds":1952,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"We're getting into what I was writing about when I was writing about product engineers. There is a skill that some senior software developers have, which is the ability to talk to a stakeholder and figure out what it is that they actually need. And domain experts usually don't have that skill, right? They have the other skills. My example in the post was somebody who runs a bakery. You have no idea how to make the perfect croissant, but they have no idea how to write bakery software, and they are not interested in finding out. They just want something that does the things they want to do. They could tell you probably, if you interview them one question at a time, what it is that they want to be able to do and what they want the software to be able to do, but they're not going to have any sense of how to put that together and how to make it work and how to be repeatable. and all of the other things that somebody whose job is thinking about software is good at doing. So that's a job. It used to be called a systems analyst in like the 60s. That was their job, was translating business requirements into software requirements without writing any software. And that job is coming back, and we're going to call it a product engineer. Their job is going to be to figure out what the user's requirements really are, and then work with a team of agents to implement that software, even if they're not writing any code themselves, and that's still a job. In fact, that's possibly the only job left when it comes to software development.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":50,"time":"34:09","seconds":2049,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"Certainly in like a 10-year time horizon, as they get good at all of the other themes. So that's that is going to, to your question, lead to a lot of not necessarily personalized software, but certainly much more specific software, right? Like at the moment, if you're running a bakery, you're probably running like generic small business point-of-sale software, and that is going to be different from something that was specifically about a bakery, right? I don't know how it's going to be different because I don't run a bakery, But there's going to be, you know, things that you experience right now as friction, stuff that you experience as pain points in your use of that software, that if somebody had built that software just for you, would work out better. And we're going to see a lot more of that. The same thing that I was saying about companies being smaller, Like, the company that writes point-of-sale software is going to get a lot smaller, and in its place are going to be 10 other companies that write point-of-sale software for specific industries that do a much better job of nailing it for that specific industry. And that's going to make everyone's life easier. That's going to make the software experience better. It's just generally going to be positive. But it's a big change, right? Because there used to be one big company, and now there's going to be 10 small companies.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":51,"time":"35:36","seconds":2136,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, I'm going to be really interested to see how this affects VC and funding as well because I think we're going to see A lot more folks are just saying, I don't really want to raise a round beyond maybe a couple angel checks from friends to get started to build my company because I am going after such a niche market right now. So I wonder if we're about to enter, or maybe we already have entered an era of accelerated bootstrapping for engineers who want to build companies because look, they can take on, if they have product thinking and some sales skills, the code side of it can really be handed off to agents and those agents can also help with a lot of logistics as long as they can help have someone to oversee them on operations.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":52,"time":"36:21","seconds":2181,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"Yeah, I mean, I do think we are seeing some of that already. There's a lot of bootstrapping happening. It does mean that there is an opportunity in the DevTools space, which is funny because I've obviously spent most of my career in the DevTools space. All of those agents are going to want to not reinvent the wheel, and they're going to want platforms and things to build on top of. So there's going to be an explosion of potential for those. And those are the things that will be VC sized opportunities, things that are sufficiently generic, that everybody writing software will want them. I'm sure you can think of some examples of the kind of stuff that that would be. Those are going to continue to do very well, while the individual implementations are going to get smaller, and to your point, less VC sized.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":53,"time":"37:13","seconds":2233,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So, okay, we've got a few different trends we've talked about here. One, the idea that we're still in a bubble, even if things are progressing rapidly, like look, The industrial revolution was a bubble in some cases, the internet was a bubble in some cases. It still vastly changed how the world worked. And as that's happening, we're seeing this change in education and educational outcomes, where people should be focusing their time. We're seeing challenges as the latter gets kind of pulled up for juniors in some cases. And then we're also seeing","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":54,"time":"37:39","seconds":2259,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"[OVERLAP] mhm.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-41-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":55,"time":"37:39","seconds":2259,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] smaller companies staying smaller for longer, companies staying private for longer. We're already seeing that with like the Databricks of the world. But I mean, it looks like open AI is going to delay their IPO. Anthropic may delay their IPO. And given the pause conversations, I'm not like stunned by that. And or and then, of course, we're seeing this kind of personalized software product engineering stuff that you're talking about here. As all these trends come together, as the stew of these changes occurs, what do you think this means for the model companies? You know, some people think the model companies are going to eat all of software, eat the economy. You seem less convinced of that in the short term.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-41-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":56,"time":"38:20","seconds":2300,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"I'd say in the short term, while there's still a lot of headroom for how good the models can get, the model companies are going to be able to get away with doing what they're doing right now, which is charging 80%","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":57,"time":"38:35","seconds":2315,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"margins on tokens over the API. And that's why Anthropic has reported two straight quarters of profitability, which is amazing given how much money they're spending. And that implies that their API is extremely profitable. And that is because, you know, Fable 5.1 is notably better than Fable 5 was. And people are willing to pay for that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":58,"time":"39:03","seconds":2343,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"But right behind them, and ever increasingly close behind them, are the open models. The models from the Chinese labs are, you know, they cost a tenth or a hundredth of what the Frontier labs are charging, and they do 90%, 95% as much. So a lot of people who are scaling stuff up are already switching to open models. So that puts a ceiling on how much money these models can make and how much market share they can really capture, and how much instead goes to, you know, the neo-scalers of the world. Where is the ceiling? How much better can these frontier models get before you begin to run into scaling","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":59,"time":"39:53","seconds":2393,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"laws or diminishing returns on how smart they get? Because if we run into one of those, then the Chinese models will catch up and the window where you can charge for the better intelligence collapses, and so does their profit. And at that point, they lose their shares. So if I was betting on how does the bubble pop, why does the bubble pop, it's because they run into some kind of scaling law with LLMs. They can't get transformers to do any more work. the models begin to see diminishing returns, and the open labs catch up. And then their profit goes, you know, to approximately zero, and the valuation does too.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":60,"time":"40:38","seconds":2438,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"This episode is sponsored by G2i. I've said before on Chain of Thought that most teams still treat evals like unit tests. Write them once, check a box, and move on. That doesn't hold up once an agent is making decisions. G2i is about to close that gap. For over a decade, they vetted and placed engineers at other companies, from startups to FAANG. Two years ago, they turned that same judgment inwards, building their own bench to review our own environments, evals, and training data that models are trained on. These reviewers know the difference between code that runs and code that's actually good because they've shipped it themselves. If your team needs that kind of work and doesn't have the engineers for it, check the link in the show notes to bring them in. I think the other challenge they're facing here is also that Meta and Google, I mean, they can stay profitable longer than pretty much any other company in the world with the scale they're at. And, you know, we can all talk shit about Gemini models for all we want to, but they still have a very strong research team. I think Gemini 4 will be pretty darn good, honestly. And they have advantages around cost and speed and integration. Now, Google has plenty of problems. I'm not, you know, waving a flag for Google winning everything. But it still creates competitive pressure on a closed model side. And we're seeing this, I think, come back from meta as well with Muse and some of the work they're doing with Spark, where that model is extremely cheap compared to the frontier intelligence from Fable 5.1 or GPT-Astra. And if there is a slowdown that impacts how far ahead the frontier is, to your point, it does become a lot harder to charge premier prices if I can get by with Muse or something else that's much cheaper or a fully open model. I do wonder, how much distillation is impacting the frontier for Chinese models, because we've seen these accusations from Anthropic around Moonshot supposedly routing traffic to cloud models to essentially steal their traces. But personally, I see DeepSeek and the work they're doing, and it makes it hard for me to think it's all distillation-based. There are incredible researchers in those open model labs, and it seems pretty clear that we're going to continue to see gains out of China. It's hard for me to picture a world where the frontier labs in the U.S. are able to both pause and kind of slow down their push for recursive self-improvement while also staying a long ways ahead of the Chinese labs.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":61,"time":"43:15","seconds":2595,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"Yeah, I completely agree. I don't think you can do those two things at the same time. And so that's, that's what the The shape of the popping of the bubble will look like.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":62,"time":"43:24","seconds":2604,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Assuming that Anthropic and OpenAI recognize this and stay private for longer, and I presume they're going to be able to raise a ton of money to do so, it looks like, I think as we speak, OpenAI was doing like looking at like a 1.2, 1.4 trillion dollar round supposedly, which, good lord, the figures on this. But assuming they decide not to IPO quite yet, There is some protection as far as how much they can lose their shirt in the short term, but what do you think this bubble popping looks like if there is a continued catch-up from open model labs and competitive pressure from closed labs that simply have the ability to stay solvent longer in meta and potentially SpaceX and definitely Google?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":63,"time":"44:10","seconds":2650,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"I think it looks like every trough of disappointment always looks like in a hype cycle. So valuations go to zero. A lot of people lose their shirts. The people who lose their shirts get sour grapes. They go, oh, this stuff was was you know it was just crypto all over again this was never good it never solved the problem it was garbage the whole time and then a much slower climb back to a plateau of productivity um where the things that we thought uh would happen in three years happen in 10 or 20 years like this very much happened in 1997. Like, there were definitely people in 1997 who said, the internet is going to change the nature of democracy and how media works and how everything that we do, everything is going to work. And they were like, but it's going to happen by 1999. So you need to invest in toys.com right now. And they were wrong, but only about how fast it was going to be, right? Like, Pets.com was like the poster child for the ridiculousness of 1999. Chewy.com is Pets.com. Chewy.com does great business.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":64,"time":"45:27","seconds":2727,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-49-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":65,"time":"45:27","seconds":2727,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"[OVERLAP] It's exactly the same idea 20 years later. It works very, very well. And the internet did change the way we consume media. And the internet did change, for better or worse, the nature of our democracy and how we talk to each other and every other thing. So the things that people say that AI is going to do, I believe that they are correct. I don't think that it's going to be 12 months from now.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-49-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":66,"time":"45:51","seconds":2751,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, and I think this is the the challenging thing we're having in this moment is how to align your long-term expectations of how sci-fi things make it with the short-term of like, how do I react in this moment? And there's so much noise coming at us, you know, from people who want to hype up a certain model or people who just are uninformed on all ends of the spectrum. that it feels hard to stay focused on on what you should be doing in the moment and adapting to these these vast changes that are occurring. So as we kind of navigate this, you know, we've talked a lot about potential implications of code generation on how software engineers have to react to this. And we did touch on this a little earlier, but I think a really crucial part of success right now is being able to curate the information you're providing to the model, whether that's for your company or for yourself as an individual. You know, there are some of this comes down to the information that's not written down and be able to pull in that product thinking, thinking that you talked about earlier in product engineering. But assuming that there continues to be a ton of power and leverage you can create through curating the data and context we provide to the models right now, what's the approach that people should be taking around building their company brain, their second brain to use overused phrases?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":67,"time":"47:18","seconds":2838,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"[OVERLAP] The thing that has always generated really great companies and really great businesses is the combination of two previously unrelated domains. And the easiest form of that intersection has always been, I know a whole lot about Internet technology, and I also know a whole lot about, pick any other random domain. Right? If I can, it was given a whole name. It was called digital transformation by the consultants, and everything was going to be digitally transformed. And they were not wrong, right? Everything's going to have an internet version of itself. And those generate a lot of value. So if I was telling somebody like what to get really good at, I would say, you don't need to get really good at technology because the technology is already getting really good all by itself. What you need to get really good at is domain. Right. Like to use my earlier analogy, like, are you potentially a really good baker? Because if you","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-50-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":68,"time":"48:28","seconds":2908,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I'm not,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-50-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":69,"time":"48:28","seconds":2908,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"[OVERLAP] are.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-50-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":70,"time":"48:29","seconds":2909,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] to be clear.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-50-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":71,"time":"48:30","seconds":2910,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"Like, I don't know what your area of expertise is, but if you're like, I'm a really good baker, or I'm really good at agriculture, or I'm really good at auto parts, or like some other domain that doesn't have a lot of internet and doesn't have a lot of AI in it right now, getting really deep on that domain is probably going to be more productive than trying to beat everybody else who's trying to win on the technology side of that intersection.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":72,"time":"48:55","seconds":2935,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"But I could just learn graph engineering, Laurie. That should solve all my problems.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":73,"time":"48:59","seconds":2939,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"Yes, absolutely. I've yet to see anybody describe graph engineering to me who I wasn't sure was actually making fun of it. There have been various posts about it and I'm like, this person is making a joke. I'm like 80% sure.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":74,"time":"49:20","seconds":2960,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Season 4 of Chain of Thought is presented by Inngest. Agents in production run long. They call models and wait on APIs and people. But the longer agents run, the more they break. Inngest handles that with durable execution. You build your agent as steps in TypeScript, Python, and Go. When a step fails, Inngest retries it with exponential backoff, and completed steps are saved and skipped. A run can wait on an event for minutes or for months. You can trace runs and replay past runs against new code, and Inngest has built-in observability, evals, and experiments so you can wrap your agent tools and steps and use it as a full-on agent harness. The dev server is open source and you can get started for free. Grab the Inngest link in the description or visit inngest.link slash cot dash pod to get started. All right. So if product engineer becomes this new category and it's not a graph engineer short term, please, Lord. Should we all though be retraining in this direction of saying okay let's combine domain expertise and the context we can gather with it with execution? I mean I can totally see a version of the economy that looks like that over the next couple years and you know models keep scaling but they don't quite hit the exponential that people expect. Um, companies stay smaller because of this and are more agile. Maybe we see more continued growth in bootstrapping and open source,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":75,"time":"50:43","seconds":3043,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"Boop.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":76,"time":"50:44","seconds":3044,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"more and more people trying to use open source, uh, stars to get themselves a funding round too, as well as I'm sure it's just definitely something where we're seeing. And I will roll my eyes a little bit at that. Um, it, it does feel like we still are maybe missing a part of the ladder where getting people from, you know, educational knowledge into that, like junior engineering role still feels challenging. We're, we are seeing a drop off in hiring of juniors right now in many companies. We haven't yet seen enough growth in apprenticeship to really solve this issue at this point. How do we solve that as an industry? How do we make that connection? So there isn't a generation of engineers, of people who want to become product engineers that are getting kind of left behind by the industry and where it's moving.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":77,"time":"51:33","seconds":3093,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"It","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":78,"time":"51:33","seconds":3093,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I know","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-57-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
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{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":80,"time":"51:33","seconds":3093,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I'm","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-57-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":81,"time":"51:33","seconds":3093,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"[OVERLAP] the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-57-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":82,"time":"51:34","seconds":3094,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"giving you really easy softballs.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":83,"time":"51:37","seconds":3097,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"question of our time. I think to get back to sort of the dark tenor of the initial five minutes of our conversation, I think the pace of the change is such that it is impossible that there isn't a cohort who have a really bad time. There's the people who started college three years ago. to pick a really great example.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":84,"time":"52:05","seconds":3125,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"They were locked in to what their course was going to be about. And in the intervening three years, every single thing changed. And what they learned and what that course was laid out to do is about a world that doesn't exist anymore. And those people are going to inevitably have a rough time entering the job market because they were trained for a thing that vanished while they were training for it. To your point about apprenticeships. Google famously started the APM program, which is a program that produces product managers, and it's being copied at a handful of other big companies. Those companies are doing the thing that we need to do, but they're doing it at the scale of, like, maybe 1,000 people a year, when we need to be doing it at a scale of 10 or 100,000 people a year. So there's some prior art there that we can look at and go, we know how to put product people together, we think, we hope. We need to scale that all the way up. That is what the new boot camps need to look like, is how do I level up at systems analysis? Because that is the skill that we need more than ever and is incredibly valuable to do all of this domain-specific stuff that we're talking about. And it's not what the domain experts are ever going to want to do. They're too busy baking good stuff and making auto parts.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":85,"time":"53:32","seconds":3212,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Laurie, it is always fantastic talking to you. I really appreciate the wide-ranging nature of this conversation. And again, I'm going to plug zelda.com to read Laurie's writing and follow his work because I think his thoughts are both deep and broad, and it's always interesting to dive into them. I'd love, Laurie, if you don't mind sharing a few closing thoughts with the audience about navigating this turbulent time, or maybe if you want to end on a slightly inspirational note, given the dark tenor we've hit here sometimes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":86,"time":"54:01","seconds":3241,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"I think it's not hard to find the positive in what we are talking about. I think long-term, it's going to be positive. The Industrial Revolution was long-term positive for the human species, right? Like, it lifted a bunch of people out of poverty. It improved standards of living. Like, no one wants to go back to pre-industrial life. Well, almost nobody. um you know and it produced a bunch of externalities and problems as well that are we should be open-eyed about and ai is doing the same thing but it is going to be the same shape of transformation a lot of things are going to get better they're going to get better faster than we've ever seen them happen before And it's 1997. You can jump on this wave and ride it to heights of productivity that your ancestors could never have dreamed about. That's very exciting. It's going to involve changing what you thought you'd have to learn three years ago or two years ago. But it's not too late. You can change your mind. You can retrain. You can figure out what it is you need. and you can do very, very well.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":87,"time":"55:10","seconds":3310,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"to pull from the name of another AI podcast, no priors. Yeah, I think it is time to update our priors and to really think hard about what the future looks like and be willing to change our mind rapidly as new information comes at us. But it is also like one of the most exciting and inspirational times. Like I said earlier, there are things we can do with computers today we have never been able to do. Computers are getting better, they are getting faster, we can do more things with code, we can do all this crazy 3D modeling with Astro suddenly that we couldn't do a few weeks ago. And there is going to be another jump in a month, I'm sure, where we'll talk again and I'll say, well, this thing has completely changed. And that is such a fun, exciting time. And 1997 was a fun, exciting time. There's a lot of money to be made. There's a lot of productivity to do. A lot of businesses to create. There's a lot of fun, interesting things to learn. And Laurie, I really appreciate you joining me today to talk about all of it. Thank you, everyone, for listening to this episode of Chain of Thought. If you enjoyed it, drop a comment, whether you're on YouTube, Spotify, wherever else. We always really appreciate hearing from our listeners. And Laurie, just thanks again for joining us. This has been great.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss","episode":74,"guid":"4fa74137-145e-485b-bdc3-3256ed524b3d","episodeTitle":"AI Codes: Product Engineers Decide What to Build | Laurie Voss, Arize","publishedAt":"2026-09-22","segmentIndex":88,"time":"56:14","seconds":3374,"speaker":"Laurie Voss","text":"Thanks for having me. This has been a great conversation.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/74-ai-codes-product-engineers-decide-what-to-build-laurie-voss/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Wen Sang","text":"Intelligence is what we leverage to get work done. We built a FSD vehicle so that you don't even need to touch the steering wheel. All you need to do is just articulate the destination. We get you there. Our view is meeting notes are just start points of work. It's not the end point. Majority of these devices out there, they basically say, hey, here's your meeting note and my job is done here. Well, we say our job is getting started here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:32","seconds":32,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"LLMs are geniuses with goldfish memories. New sessions are a blank slate without supporting infrastructure. My guest today is building the AI workspace and hardware to provide LLMs with all the context they need. Wen Sang is co-founder and COO of Genspark, which went from launch to 250 million in ARR in about a year, recently shipped their first piece of hardware, a card-thin meeting recorder, which I have in my hand right here, and open-sourced an entire AI-native office suite. When Genspark has been busy taking on a hard problem, aligning AI-enabled software with hardware because you clearly see a new way for people to collaborate with AI agents that includes a hardware interface, how do you think we should be altering our approach today to work with AI?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":2,"time":"1:19","seconds":79,"speaker":"Wen Sang","text":"First off, Conor, thank you for having me here. Super excited to be here and you ask excellent questions. So today's world to what you just said, on the one hand, you know, majority of the AI applications out there, if you interact with them, you ask them for answers for tasks. Geniuses with goldfish memories. They don't know you. Every time you have the prompt all over again. So we believe the AI should interact with human beings just like how we interact with each other. That's why we believe it is important for the AI to have memories. Not only that, they should also be able to tap into the world that we literally live in, the physical world, instead of just being trapped with whatever's already been digitized. Um, I mean, some of the most important conversations we having our lives are in-person conversations in real life. So why shouldn't AI, our AI agents being able to tap into those content and then do real work for us? That is what motivated us to break the, uh, grounds and then, uh, essentially, uh, unlock the, some of the most important information. That is going around in our lives with the the second brain notes. I have one myself here as well","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":3,"time":"2:41","seconds":161,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Awesome. Yeah, I'll say thank you, by the way, for letting me have a review copy of The Second Brain Notes. It's been very fun to test it out. And before we get too far into the conversation, I do want to say a quick thank you to our presenting sponsors for the episode as well. Inngest, Walrus Memory, and Svix, who are sponsoring season four of Chain of Thought. You can find their links in the episode description. And G2i has joined them as well, helping teams find specialized engineering talent. But we're here to talk about Genspark today. And Genspark's seeing this incredible growth across the last year or two since you've started the company. You've been open sourcing quite a few tools. You've been building on top of hardware. And you brought up memory and context for agents, which I think are very important themes that we've talked a lot about on this show. How do you think about this infrastructure that you're constructing around the models, and when should we be focusing on the outputs of these in-person conversations versus inputs that maybe we're making from documentation and these other sources?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":4,"time":"3:47","seconds":227,"speaker":"Wen Sang","text":"So if I got your question accurately, Conor, you're asking about our consideration behind the technology architecture?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":5,"time":"3:56","seconds":236,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yes, yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":6,"time":"3:57","seconds":237,"speaker":"Wen Sang","text":"Yeah, so look, our view of the world is this, Conor. Frontier Labs, they've done amazing work to build the next generation intelligence. Now, those are engines. What we do is we build vehicles, we build cars around the engines for our users, for our customers. Intelligence does not equal to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":7,"time":"4:22","seconds":262,"speaker":"Wen Sang","text":"[OVERLAP] work results or the output. Intelligence is what we leverage to get work done. Frontier Labs, a lot of good partners of ours, OpenAI, Anthropic, Google, we work with all of them. We also work with overweight model hosts, providers like Fireworks, Vell, together, all of them. Now, these folks, they've done great work, especially Frontier Labs, to allow us to see the possibilities, and they would build products as well. But their focus is always, how do we make the model smarter? How do we make the models solve partial differential equations? That is important. That is where the raw power comes from. For the 1 billion plus global nodge workers, for people like you and me, you might be very technical. I'm a mechanical engineer by training, so I don't know how to code. So for me to maneuver a Fable 5 and trying to get the full power out of it, I don't know how. Even when I'm using some of these you know, work applications. If I'm asking one of these applications to give me a presentation, a five page slide deck, it's going to ask me to download 10 things from GitHub. I don't even know where those things are. I don't want to think about that sort of stuff. I want all my tools, applications, everything's already packaged up. I just want to interact with my agents like how I'm talking to a very competent, fast, tireless associate of mine. Um, so, so that's what we do at Genspark. We, we don't even build a formula one racing car for you. We built a FSD vehicle so that you don't even need to touch the steering wheel. All you need to do is just articulate the destination. We get you there. That's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-6-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":8,"time":"6:08","seconds":368,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-6-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":9,"time":"6:08","seconds":368,"speaker":"Wen Sang","text":"[OVERLAP] how we think.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-6-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":10,"time":"6:08","seconds":368,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] love","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-6-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":11,"time":"6:09","seconds":369,"speaker":"Wen Sang","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-6-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":12,"time":"6:09","seconds":369,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] that you brought up Formula One, even though it's not exactly what you're doing. It is immediately what I thought about when you were like, oh, we work with engine providers, we built the chassis, we built the car around it. But to your point, you're building a self-driving car, hopefully.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-6-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":13,"time":"6:23","seconds":383,"speaker":"Wen Sang","text":"[OVERLAP] Yes, exactly. Yeah. To that a little bit on the technology, maybe we have a three layer kind of a technology architecture on the bottom. Exactly. As you pointed out, we actually released the world's first mixture of agents tech architecture. Today, we sit on top of 70 plus models. We. of each different model to do different things. The models that are good at reasoning and planning, we use them to come up with the work plan for a project. The models that are good at coding, we ask them to code. For example, if you're building a presentation, we ask them to code in HTML first. And the models that are good at image video, we use them for multimodal media stuff. And there are obviously the models that are fast and cost effective, we might leverage them to kind of visualize data or do something else. So it's a combination. On top of that, we also built out 150 plus in-house tools to put them in place so that models could call on these tools under the right context to accomplish the real world work. On top of that, we also pay to get access to premium data sets, PitchBook, Crunchbase, S&P, all the good stuff. Like we're in conversation, for example, with the Unlight SE because they have a data business that is called ICE. So all of them, and we're also talking to the Wall Street Journal because they have a data business as well. So our target audience are the non-technical knowledge workers. We want to make sure they not only have their own data, they not only have access to the web, they also have access to these premium data sets to ground and align the output so that they're reliable, useful, and ready to go. You can't just rely on what people say on Reddit. That's one big part of the source of information, but that's not 100% what you can rely on. You got to have access to all of it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-6-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":14,"time":"8:11","seconds":491,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] data integrity definitely matters. I had a great conversation with the CTO of Thomson Reuters recently about their Thomson One model","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-6-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":15,"time":"8:20","seconds":500,"speaker":"Wen Sang","text":"[OVERLAP] you","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-6-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":16,"time":"8:20","seconds":500,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] and basically how they're leveraging legal AI data in that framework. And really what enabled them to fine tune and train their model much more cheaply was the fact that they run Westlaw, which has annotated case law for all this different content. And to your point, I think things like PitchBook, etc. can give you a huge leg up. And I have to point out, too, something you kind of skated past this, but I actually did not realize that Genspark were the originators of the first commercial mixture of agents architecture that was out there. I knew Together really led the research around that back in 2024. But, you know, as I'm hearing you talk and looking it up, like that's very cool to see that you were the first commercial users of this.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-6-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":17,"time":"9:03","seconds":543,"speaker":"Wen Sang","text":"Yeah, because very early on, we realized, you know, for the knowledge works, for our target audience, they don't care about what model is behind this. They just want the results. And everything else is means to an end. So we're like, OK, we got to put this all together. That's what drove the model orchestration. Yeah, architecture.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":18,"time":"9:27","seconds":567,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Well, I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":19,"time":"9:28","seconds":568,"speaker":"Wen Sang","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-8-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":20,"time":"9:28","seconds":568,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] also think you're a little too humble here because you're calling yourself non-technical, but you spent, what, a decade leading a Y Combinator-backed analytics company that was acquired. You have a doctorate in mechanical engineering. I think you picked up a few tricks along the way. But I hear you for sure on the idea that we want to extend ourselves with agents because I agree, I don't want to spend all my time fine-tuning the little bits and pieces of whatever I need for my Git stack to get a repo over the line. I want my coding agent to handle those problems for me. I want to never have to worry about a merge conflict ever again in my life. I want an agent to handle that for me.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-8-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":21,"time":"10:03","seconds":603,"speaker":"Wen Sang","text":"When it comes to how users would experience AIs these days, human beings, we're smart. It's pretty easy for us to tell if I'm burning the tokens, wasting my time teaching AI and not getting what I want, or it's like one prompt. Oh, this is exactly what I need, right? So to that, one key thing is how people do eval. Our good partners, Frontier Labs, when they do eval, they truly focus on the analogies. And when it comes to our eval, it's the autonomous recursive learning algorithm that grades every interaction between our users and our product. But it focuses on if the users are getting the uh boardroom ready materials if the users are getting the uh so for example personally for me i haven't solved one partial differential equation in my last 10 years running my last company but i wrote a lot of business emails i uh built a lot of financial models i i did a lot of documents put together a lot of sales proposals i care about if my sales proposal responded appropriately to every point that the RFP had in it, right? So those are the reliability, the accuracy, the usability of the work output. That is what our eval benchmark system focuses on, right? So those things make a huge difference.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":22,"time":"11:22","seconds":682,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Let's talk about that work output. So if I have my second brain node and I am recording a meeting, what should I expect from the follow on through that? You have a variety of agents built in the platform. You've got a transcript that comes out of it. A meeting produces an hour of audio. What does it actually look like as a memory a week later when an agent needs it and what kind of workflows are you running across it?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":23,"time":"11:47","seconds":707,"speaker":"Wen Sang","text":"[OVERLAP] That is such an excellent question, Conor. So exactly to what you said, there are many devices out there on the market that you could use to get the audio file, to get the transcript or even a summary. Some would even say that I don't need anything else. I could just use my iPhone. Right. But I know Yeah, well, if you do do that, first off, iPhone is not designed for a boardroom setting. It will pick up one-to-one conversations very clearly, but you know, there's a lot of, it's not designed for that, and battery would just drain out in two hours. But a lot of these devices solve that problem, including Jazz Park secondary note, it could go on for 35 hours. But our view is, even the meeting notes are just start points of work. It's not the endpoint. Majority of these devices out there, they basically say, here's your meeting node NF. My job is done here.\" Well, we say, our job is getting started here. You could now talk to your meeting notes in a way that, hey, turn everything in this meeting into a sales proposal, into a pricing model, into a ROI analysis for our clients, or turn this into a presentation I could send to the client or to the master to follow up on all the things that they asked about. Or, hey, based off this meeting notes, Do all the research around the topics that we left open. Come back with a collection of the answers for me and then turn that into something. So we carry our users and our customers end to end. That's one thing. Secondly, when it comes to the memory piece, this new piece of meeting note is now going to be incorporated into your second brain, which is a layer of the semantic understanding we've built for you. so that your Genspark super agent would be able to tap into when it's working for you instead of like every time you gotta introduce yourself, you gotta introduce your work, you gotta ask the agent to say you're the world's best expert in this and that. None of that. Your preferences, how you do things, who is your most important relationship, what are your work priorities, Is this meeting some of the most important things you got to follow up this week or it's okay to follow up next week? It remembers and understands all of that. It synchronizes this new piece of context into the Genspark's holistic understanding of you as a person and it's all human-centric. It does work around you, not the other way around. So information retrieval is information collection. Retrieval is only the start point. The true understanding is what the second brain does for you when it comes to that layer. And then the real power comes from the output, right? Like you can just turn your meeting notes directly into results. Now, on top of that, Beyond individuals, if if you are an enterprise company, say if you have a thousand team members on your business team or your revenue team, now you finally have the opportunity toward the end of month to say you can ask the 1000 second brain nodes. Okay, so what are some of the good meetings we had in the past month? What is the market asking for? How can we do better from a product perspective to make our customers' lives a lot easier? What are the opportunities? What are the risks? And the way it works is you don't have to kind of send a fleet of biz ops analysts into each of those meeting notes to look through, copy and paste, and then do none of that. You know, you can just ask Genspark's second brain to answer those questions directly, because not only you have access to the data, but you also have a full layer of understanding of what's going on as well, as individuals, as organizations.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-10-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":24,"time":"15:45","seconds":945,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Season 4 of Chain of Thought is presented by Walrus Memory, the portable memory layer for AI agents. Your agent has learned your codebase and how you work. Now you want to use that context in another tool. Exporting a file gives you a snapshot, but what happens when the context changes? Walrus Memory is a portable memory layer that lets your agent store context for later use across tools. Python and TypeScript SDKs, plus native MCP support, let you connect it to your agents no matter where they are. You said who can read and write, so sharing context doesn't mean opening up your whole memory store. If you're building across tools or model families, take a look at walrus memory. Learn more at walrus.xyz.cot. That's walrus.xyz.cot. So if I'm understanding the approach here correctly,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-10-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":25,"time":"16:37","seconds":997,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] what you're calling the second brain is essentially memory and quite a bit of context, but it's not the whole context layer. It's this base layer of a lot of information, though. You then have an intelligence layer that's running across that and helping pull up the right information, make decisions, run workflows. You then have your tool suite, which is your open source tools, other tools you want to bring in. It also includes a lot more content and context. And then you have like a collaboration layer where you're both collaborating with agents and then also with teammates. Is that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-10-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":26,"time":"17:08","seconds":1028,"speaker":"Wen Sang","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-10-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":27,"time":"17:09","seconds":1029,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] a correct understanding?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-10-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":28,"time":"17:09","seconds":1029,"speaker":"Wen Sang","text":"I love that. So essentially, the models, the tools and the premium data sets, those three things packaged up as we call it the execution layer. So those are the arms and legs of your agents that will do things with the intelligence from the models, obviously. Now, to examine what you said, now we have built out the memory layer. which enables you to interact with Genspark in a way that, this is a breakthrough for us, right? Like the agents now, they know you intrinsically. Not only you can get understanding from, it could get understanding from your work, from the meeting notes, it would tap into your emails. it could tap into your drive and all of these information on an ongoing basis when they refresh the memory layer of the second brain of yours it would refresh itself and it'll have new better understanding of you on an ongoing basis as well and it's holistic it's not limited to one system if you're working sales it could tap into your CRM and truly understand the latest dynamics of your pipeline. It may also, you know, if you have, you know, kind of trade-offs to make next week, do I go to this conference or do I focus on this client? Just nail down this lead or this opportunity. It could understand where you are and then actually work with you to your preference, to your priorities, not just limited to the meeting notes. Now, on top of that, one thing you pointed out is our collaboration layer, which is also a new capability we've built out of our 6.0 package, which is called GenTeam. So basically, it's kind of an instant message, kind of an experience, but not only you can talk to your team members, you can create and interact with your AI agents, team members, and you can ask for work output and all of them could have the level of understanding of you to the extent you allow them to tap into those data sources. If you allow them to tap into your second brain, they know you instantly. Fun story, I was in Bora Bora with my family for about 10 days because my kids, they have their summer vacation and we took them out. But I was sufficiently unplugged, but I obviously couldn't unplug entirely. So every morning I would spend 30 minutes talking to my executive assistant, my AI agent, Chloe, on my gen team. verbally or I could type but I could call my EA as well and we'll get the work done for today and then I'll get on to the you know quality of time with my family. When I came back some of my team members they were like wait you were out for vacation? We didn't even notice that because I was unbeat with everything so that's how work can be done these days. Yeah I didn't bring my laptop.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":29,"time":"20:07","seconds":1207,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I'm curious, so I've talked to Slack recently, and they obviously have a big focus on enabling collaboration between agents and humans within Slack, a huge focus.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":30,"time":"20:21","seconds":1221,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Do you view Gen Team as competitive to what Slack's doing with agents, or do you view it as something like, oh, we could integrate Gen Team into Slack, or maybe that's something that's already happening?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":31,"time":"20:30","seconds":1230,"speaker":"Wen Sang","text":"[OVERLAP] So both, I'll be honest. So, yeah, I mean, like we human beings, we we we get work done a lot of times through talking to each other. That's how collaborations happen. And from an experience standpoint, there might be a kind of overlap when it comes to that. But at the same time, we understand. So we are working on making Genspark capabilities, Genteam capabilities available everywhere. So we would want our users to be able to call up your Genteam agents right within Slack, that's one. But beyond that also, if you just wanted your entire AI stack To be honest, Genspark, we offer an AI native experience for you that you don't necessarily have to go anywhere else to get everything done. Because our worldview is this, Conor. The world was too centric. Each of us would have to tap into Yo, so many different tools, 20, 30, 40 tools, may it be Microsoft Suites, Google Suites, Slack, Notion, Salesforce, you name it, all of these things. And then we do the busy work. We do the grunt work, the copy and pasting, same piece of business context from a piece of meeting note to an email to a Slack message. We do all of that to get the work done. Now, with platforms like Genspark, you no longer have to do that. The world is now human-centric in a way that we only need one entry point to work. And that entry point is, say, if it is Genspark, it's not the next generation of software, it's the next generation users of software. So Salesforce went headless. We're building the head, is basically the case. All you need to do to get work done is talk to your Genspark agents and the agents would run around to tapping to all of these different systems, system records and or messages, etc. Get it done for you. You don't have to go anywhere else. But if you prefer to be there, You can. Here, the reality that, for example, Genspark team lives in is this. A lot of our enterprise clients, they prefer Microsoft Teams. That's where their work is done. We interact with these folks there because they prefer that. A lot of the Frontier Labs and our partners, the techies, they live in Slack. We collaborate on model testing and so on and so forth over there. And then there is a group of people just love Google Suites. the advertisement agencies that we would work with as clients, as they just love Google. And we have to interact with them over there. But for me as a human being, I'm like, my head is exploding. I don't even know when to check what. And then there's WhatsApp, there's iMessage. Clients love you so much that they put you onto their. So it's all over the place. And in APAC, like in Japan, for example, we have some major clients. They love to be on the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-13-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":32,"time":"23:28","seconds":1408,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Hmm.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-13-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":33,"time":"23:28","seconds":1408,"speaker":"Wen Sang","text":"[OVERLAP] line. So you have to be there. It's a lot. So we wanted to meet with our customers, our partners, where they are, but at the same time, it's too much. So we have this place where I can just tell my agents, hey, look through all of these platforms. Give me the gist of it and draft the responses for me to, you know, wherever they are. Right. Like maybe email, Slack, Teams, Line, WhatsApp. I don't care. You make it happen. So that is the beautiful experience we can offer. So that's how we operate internally because luckily, we're a global company from day one. And unfortunately, because of that, you have to deal with so many systems.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-13-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":34,"time":"24:11","seconds":1451,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, you get pros and cons for sure. Definitely challenges that come with the opportunities there. I'm curious about one thing that I've been thinking a lot about recently, which is how to decide when contacts or memories are no longer valuable. What's the approach that you're taking to updating memory? So let's say, you know, two weeks ago, something was true on a sales deal. But now, based off of recent meetings, or a change in strategy, we've had alterations. What does it look like to make those updates within SecondBrain and within Genspark's, you know, memory and content architecture?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":35,"time":"24:47","seconds":1487,"speaker":"Wen Sang","text":"So today, we basically, our desire is twofold. One, we wanted to make it as painless as possible. Two, we wanted to make sure it works to the customer's, user's preference. So basically, we allow you to choose if you wanted to load new memories in every day, like you would just sleep on it and then you have new memory, or if you wanted to do it every week, every month, that's completely up to you. And you could set this up for different system records. It could be for your drive, for your email, for your meeting notes, for your Genspark project history. And you can do one click migration or let's say memory loading from your Notion, from your CRMs. It's available. So you could manually trigger it. You could let it trigger by itself automatically and then turn on this cadence. It's completely up to you. We work with your preferences.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":36,"time":"25:40","seconds":1540,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Season 4 of Chain of Thought is delivered by Svix. We spend a lot of time talking about what agents need in production, and one of the least glamorous answers is events. Your customers want agent workflows that react to things happening inside your system, which means your API needs webhooks that actually work. not just a post request and a prayer, retries, ordering, idempotency, replay protection. Svix does that as a service, and they wrote standard webhooks, the spec that Anthropic, OpenAI, and Google belled against. So if your API doesn't have reliable webhooks, that's turning into a lost deal. Join Brex, Drata, Daytona, and many others on Svix. Get started at link.svix.com slash c-o-t or go to the show notes to grab the link. Qualified startups will get $12,000 in credits. $50,000 for YC companies. I can't recommend Svix enough. I'm a huge fan of their open source project. I've actually contributed a bit myself and they're so easy to integrate with. I think you'll really enjoy it. check out Svix at link.svix.com slash C-O-T. And then one of the ways you've obviously specialized all of this is through hardware. And we've alluded to the second brain node a couple times throughout the conversation. But I want to talk a bit more specifically about what that looks like, because A, it's less rare than it used to be, but it's still rare for software first companies to launch hardware. B, I've heard you say this is just the first hardware piece you're going to launch, and so I'm interested to know if you'll give us a bit of a preview there. But let's start first on what you've done today. We mentioned phones earlier, and phones are designed for one-to-one conversations. They're not necessarily designed to record and understand multi-person conversations. What was the engineering approach behind the second-brain note, and what were the decisions that you've had to make along the way to get to where you are?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":37,"time":"27:37","seconds":1657,"speaker":"Wen Sang","text":"Yes, so look, Conor, such excellent question. So we first off, we understand in in real life, we would have conversations with you in a one on one settings. Yes. But we would also have conversations with a group. We would we might sometimes wanted to talk to ourselves or getting a little sprawl. So we want to cover it all. The goal is to make sure that the context in the real life can be put in place for your agents to work for you as well. That's why when we designed it, it's not just like the phone has like one microphone and then that's it, right? Like it's really meant to do this for you. But then for us, we designed an array of microphones. along the edge, so it could pick up signals. If you sit in a big boardroom, if there was a group of people, wherever you sit, we've done testing to make sure that it could pick up everybody's voice. So this is one. Secondly, as I mentioned earlier, if you use your iPhone to do the recording, you can. But it is not designed to do that. One, the battery would drain out in two hours. Two, obviously it's going to get white hot. Two, all you get is the audio file. You would have to do the processing of transcripting it and then turn it into a memory or summary and then it does not connect to anything. So we take care of all of that for you. You don't have to go through any of the middle steps. So you can, the moment you tap this button, it's in there. A few seconds later after the meeting, you can just open up your Genspark application and you can ask questions directly with the meeting notes and then turn it into presentations or AI podcasts. You know what? I love this meeting so much so that I wanted the TLDR version of it verbally. We can have that through Genspark.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":38,"time":"29:35","seconds":1775,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It's interesting because I spoke with Dhruv Batra at Yutori on this show a few weeks ago, and we talked about their Navigator N2 and N1.5 models, which are designed for browser usage, computer usage. And what we really talked about was most of the web will never get APIs for AI agents. The top companies are building APIs, we're building agent-first, but a lot of the long tail of the web is going to take years, maybe decades, to up-level it to be designed for agents first. And the physical world today is even more so, it's not designed for agents to operate with it. We're having to redesign the meeting rooms, like we talked to Neat about a few weeks back, Do you think about the note almost as like an API for the room you're standing in to enable you to upload the context into your second brain?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":39,"time":"30:27","seconds":1827,"speaker":"Wen Sang","text":"I think that's a great way to look at it, Conor. And to that, I would say right now we're covering the conversations which contains a lot of information. I wouldn't be surprised if we started to capture image, video, some other modality in the future as well. I'm not saying we're working on any of that, but I am saying that for all of us, we live in a real world that information comes from everywhere. And yes, we have our tools, system records, but also we're having conversations, we're seeing things, we're hearing things. So all of those information that human beings can get, AI, probably would get.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":40,"time":"31:19","seconds":1879,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So without asking you to pre-announce anything, what's your decision framework for what is going to deserve dedicated hardware support versus what stays software?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":41,"time":"31:31","seconds":1891,"speaker":"Wen Sang","text":"So that's amazing. That's an amazing question, because we think about this a lot. So really the selection comes from the breaking point of the current digital world and what we need to get done from a work perspective, right? So if you go out and then visit a client, you're gonna have a conversation, but if you're just","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":42,"time":"32:02","seconds":1922,"speaker":"Wen Sang","text":"scribbling down the notes while you're having that conversation, that's hard. So that's where we say the break. So we wanted to make sure you can focus on the human beings. Let the AI focus on all the other stuff. That's kind of how we look at it. Same thing when it comes to some other scenarios, like for example, right now, a lot of us We have to interact with our AI through typing. That's fine and dandy. We've done it for decades. But this is unnatural for human beings. We're not born to do this. This did not exist when our DNAs were formed. So what we have is our voice. That's why we have a product called Speakly. You just talk to your AI. That's how we should be able to interact. Right. So so we're trying to get as closer as possible. We're trying to indefinitely approach the very humane kind of characteristics to make it as smooth, easy for us to incorporate all the contexts, work context, you know, for AI so that they could they could truly understand us. They could learn about us and they could work for us like, you know, a fleet of Goldman Sachs analysts who know you really well. That is the goal.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":43,"time":"33:33","seconds":2013,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I imagine that there have been challenges along the way here, because hardware is famously where many software companies struggle, whether it's inventory, return, support, firmware. You ran a SaaS company for a decade. What did you learn from building a physical supply chain at, what, just over a two-year-old AI company?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":44,"time":"33:55","seconds":2035,"speaker":"Wen Sang","text":"Well, first off, I wouldn't take the credits. So to your point, I was running a computer software company. I know very little about, you know, the hardware stuff. But the beautiful thing is my co-founders, Eric Kay, before this, they built a company from zero to $5.5 billion worth. And that company leveraged the last generation deep learning technologies to build voice AI. And one of the key products there is a hardware piece. And they built, tremendous expertise in, you know, designing, testing, building, shipping, and iterating hardware devices. This first product is actually, I'd say, much simpler than what they built before. So, yeah, and we have solid engineers to you know, cover all of these areas for us. And to be honest, the expertise and relationships they've built from the supply chain side of the world and past decade has been tremendously valuable. It's, yeah, the know-how that, yeah, I mean, there are many options. So, so, yeah, yeah, that this is kind of us playing to our strength in a way.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":45,"time":"35:02","seconds":2102,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Fair, fair. Another big decision that I'm sure you've had to make along the way has been when to go closed source versus when to open source. And you open source a full AI native office suite instead of keeping it as a paid feature. How did you come by that decision?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":46,"time":"35:23","seconds":2123,"speaker":"Wen Sang","text":"We wrote a blog about this, and really, we just, on the one hand, this project was, how do I put it, a little spontaneous, I'd say. So one of our engineers, he is obsessed with the capability to, you know, build tools for people to easily, you know, do all the, you know, office related work. So, uh, he just had this opportunity. We, we went, uh, unlimited tokens policy, uh, back in, I think in March or April, I can't remember, but, um, he was like, okay, great. So he started hacking around and, um, then he just thought, Hey, I mean, so many people use these sort of tools. Can we make it not only easy for you to use, but also I could have my own version of it, given that building new things is so affordable and possible today. So he started hanging around and then it was one week he spent, I think, $10,000 worth of tokens in the Voila, the prototype was done and we were all surprised how capable it was. And we were like, OK, I mean, the world has some solutions out there, but we do also know a big chunk of the world. One, they don't necessarily have access to these things. Two, they can't have it in a way that they prefer. And three, we believe that the world is pulling away from kind of a tool-centric world, but more into a human-centric world, meaning that for all of these things, you have to have AI natively built in. So we just wanted to have as many as possible people to be able to benefit from it, to be able to change it to their preferences. So that's why we released GenOffice fully open sourced with our agentic AI capabilities built in. From a business standpoint, I'll be honest, it is to create certain traffic for AI capabilities. So people would see that, oh, hey, you know what? While I can edit this document, it's great. I could just ask Genspark to do all the work. That's even better. So that's kind of how we wanted the people to experience it. Yes, you can have the tool, but but you'd prefer your agent to work with the tool, not you. So that's kind of the logic there.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":47,"time":"37:40","seconds":2260,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I love it, and I think it speaks to where we think the future of work is going, which is changing the level of abstraction across what we're doing with knowledge work. We're already seeing it with coding, we're seeing it with math, we're starting to see it in other areas, though I'll argue that things like writing are far from solved. If agents with persistent memory are handling busy work end-to-end, what do you see knowledge workers spending their time on day-to-day in the coming years?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":48,"time":"38:11","seconds":2291,"speaker":"Wen Sang","text":"So the way we look at this, Conor, is that if you look at, so we cater to the, as I mentioned earlier, 1 billion plus global knowledge workers. And this group creates 30 to 50 trillion dollars worth of value, according to some of the McKinsey study. OK. Now, the way we create those values, if you distill it down on an individual level, it's really three things. We collect information, we process information, we generate output. Regardless, if you work in banking, consulting, advertising, food and beverage, regardless, as long as you're not working with your hands, you're basically typing in front of a computer and all that, right? So those are the core parts of it. Now, in each of those steps, Much of our time, 60, 70, 80% of our time is spent on the busy work. The work that does not directly generate, you know, leverage creativity or generate strategic values. It's like we have to do those work to get the real work done. So our view is, with agents auto-piloting a lot of those busy work, we actually can focus on decision-making, handshaking, meaning making human connections, use our creativity. Everybody could work like a Jensen Huang, because when the journalists interviewed Jensen, hey you work hard, and how do you do that? Jensen was like, I don't feel like I'm working hard. People feel like they're working hard because they're working on things that they don't like to spend time on. When I work, I feel like I'm dreaming. I'm thinking about what can be, what is possible in the next three, five years. That is what we want for everybody. We believe now with this wave of AI breakthroughs, many of us, maybe all of us could have that opportunity to leverage, to tap the full potential out of each of us. So the time we have to spend on busy work is no longer the limit of what we can create. It's ourselves.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":49,"time":"40:07","seconds":2407,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So speaking of creativity, as a developer who is building systems for myself, obviously I can use the Genspark platform, but if I want to build tools that interact with Genspark or that work with my second brain node, what can I do today to customize to my needs?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":50,"time":"40:26","seconds":2426,"speaker":"Wen Sang","text":"Oh, 100% Conor. We have a CLI that you've the leverage you could just yeah. Matter of fact, this is not only for individual developers, we just went live with one of the major. enterprise companies in the world that their developer teams, they love our CLI capability. So they just built their application on top of our harness in that sense. So yes, you could put Genspark anywhere in your world, in your workflows, and enjoy the amazing capabilities we've built out of that three-layer kind of package. And yeah, take full advantage of it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":51,"time":"41:10","seconds":2470,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Season 4 of Chain of Thought is presented by Inngest. Agents in production run long. They call models and wait on APIs and people. But the longer agents run, the more they break. Inngest handles that with durable execution. You build your agent as steps in TypeScript, Python, and Go. When a step fails, Inngest retries it with exponential backoff, and completed steps are saved and skipped. A run can wait on an event for minutes or for months. You can trace runs and replay past runs against new code. And Inngest has built-in observability, evals, and experiments so you can wrap your agent tools and steps and use it as a full-on agent harness. The dev server is open source and you can get started for free. Grab the Inngest link in the description or visit inngest.link slash cot dash pod to get started. It's definitely a really exciting space, but I also think we should address some of the concerns that I know folks have. So, I mean, like an obvious one is I live in Washington State. It's a two-party consent state. You know, a card in my pocket that picks up voices from a few meters away may concern some people. What do you see as the line between, you know, a second brain and note-taking versus surveillance? And, you know, what's the advice you're giving to people who are out there using these products day to day?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":52,"time":"42:30","seconds":2550,"speaker":"Wen Sang","text":"100%. So we recommend that whenever I use secondary notes, the consent has to be clear and explicit. So I would ask for permission. Hey, could I record this meeting? It's the same thing as when we do it online. No difference. And then I would tap this. And then you see the light will turn on. So the consent got to be clear and explicit. The recording is visible, right? And then the data access, the control is to the human being, to you. Like if you're using second brain nodes, you are the decision maker, you are the automated controller of the access, the editing, the deletion of all the information. That's how it should work. We believe that privacy matters a lot. And the way to use this is no different than how you would use an iPhone to record the ambient environment or how you use an online meeting bot to do the meeting notes. It's the same thing. Explicit consent, visible recording, and human responsible control.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":53,"time":"43:46","seconds":2626,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And speaking of individual control and customization, I also know that Genspark has launched your own claw, Genspark Claw. I'm curious how that interacts with everything else in the stack.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":54,"time":"43:58","seconds":2638,"speaker":"Wen Sang","text":"So Genspark Claw is basically, we got inspired by the Open Claw kind of framework that now not only you can interact with your AI agents within this one place, the AI basically follows you, you can interact with your agents anywhere you want. But then, challenge for non-technical folks is that I personally don't know how to set up a Mac Mini and run Node.js and update the Omicloud versions and then keep it all secure and safe. So we thought, you know what, for people who wanted to talk to their agents through WhatsApp or whatnot, you don't have to deal with any of that. We stack the whole thing on top of Microsoft Azure Infra. It's enterprise-grade security and all that. And we made it so easy that if you wanted to turn on connections between your agent and WhatsApp or Slack, you just click a button. That's how simple it is to set it up. So we created that experience. And basically, Euroclaw lives in this virtual machine environment by Microsoft Azure. And you don't have to deal with any of that setting up, maintenance and all that. You don't have to have a IT team and you don't have to pay $1,400 upfront to get it set up. So that's kind of the premise of it. Now, I would say though, Claw, not only you can have it just through Genspark Claw now, you can also have it through GenTeam, which in my view is an even better kind of work environment because with that, I'd say the stability, the performance of the Claw is getting upgraded. So the clock gave us, I'd say, inspiration. I mean, today's world, you see disruptors getting disrupted all the time. We're disrupting ourselves, is basically the case. So yeah, we're constantly taking on these new possibilities and turning them into more reliable, useful, and just easy to use technologies for our target users. Because look, AI is happening fast. AI is happening so fast so that Mark Andreessen said AGI is already here. But to his point, it's not everywhere. He's right. So we see that gap. Our view is the world shouldn't be one that only the elite developers in Silicon Valley would have access to the greatest and latest AI and they can just turn magics out of this.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":55,"time":"46:44","seconds":2804,"speaker":"Wen Sang","text":"have the top speed of this engine, just like a Formula One racing car, but all you need to do is to just say, hey, I wanted to do this. And then FMSD delivers to you. That's kind of how we think about this. That's why when it comes to KLAW and so on, we wanted to break it down so that, you know, a non-technical person like me, I just say a few words and then voila, it's mine.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":56,"time":"47:09","seconds":2829,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It's interesting to look at the areas in Genspark's approach where you're going very simple, which is essentially a cheaper version of some of these other pins that we've seen. You've seen Humane's pin, Rabbit R1, etc. They're like $700. And you're saying, look, we want a more affordable, simpler device. And yet you're also going complex as far as what you integrate with and what you enable. And another element of complexity that has been added to a lot of AI conversations today, and particularly ones around agent memory, is As we start to slide into these deeper conversations about memory, we start talking about consciousness. We start talking about model welfare. Anyone who reads Steve Yege's work I think has seen a few different perspectives on this. My general take is that letting agents carry context between sessions is simply correct infrastructure regardless, whatever you believe about welfare. I'm curious if you and the Genspark team have a perspective on welfare for models in the long term and how you're thinking about persistent agent memory, or are you purely focused on, hey, this is what's right for enterprises anyways?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":57,"time":"48:21","seconds":2901,"speaker":"Wen Sang","text":"Yeah, look, there are a couple of things, Conor. So first, we believe those are important topics","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":58,"time":"48:28","seconds":2908,"speaker":"Wen Sang","text":"for the entire humanity. These things are happening in real time. And it's important to, I'd say, have deep discussions around these topics and have solutions collectively for the entire human race. At Genspark, though, we are a human-centric company, and we're a practical company. What I mean by that is our worldview is AI is a piece of technology that should serve human beings, first and foremost. And our work is all around that. And our work is all around, not only AI should serve human beings, it should serve as many as possible billions of human beings. That's why we're focused on building technology that is so easy to use. If you can use a Google search, you can use Genspark, but get the greatest and latest, most advanced AI capabilities to work for you, especially in a productivity world, especially in the world where you want to get work done. so that you could then work harder and earn more, or you could sit back and then relax. That's all up to you. We want to create more freedom for each person, each individual. We want you to feel like you can tap your full potential to create things because that, you know, Genspark would take take care of all the busy work, all the grunt work for you. So that's our focus. And we have a rather pragmatic view of how to do that. The products we've developed, we've kind of essentially followed that philosophy that we want to build useful things for human beings. We believe AI could be extremely useful here for us to do that, to level up. And that is what we focused on. Now, we are also a very active member in this entire community. As I mentioned, not only we work with all the Frontier Labs, we're great partners with Microsoft. We're great partners with, you know, when NVIDIA pushed out the openweight model letter. We co-signed when the Open Secure AI Alliance was formed. We were one of the earliest members. We believe in the importance of having optionality, having open way models to advance the entire industry together. We also believe in the importance of agents, governance, security, privacy, all of these good stuff. And we intend to contribute when it comes to these rather important aspects of this you know, booming, but still in a baby infant stage kind of AI industry. That's kind of how we think about this and look at the world.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":59,"time":"51:13","seconds":3073,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"How big is your human team today? Obviously you've seen incredible growth.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":60,"time":"51:16","seconds":3076,"speaker":"Wen Sang","text":"[OVERLAP] We, we have a lot of agents running around. Yes. Uh, human wise, we have 70 plus, almost 80 people around the globe. Uh, so yeah, we're headquartered here in Palo Alto, California, but, uh, we do also have a team in Japan, um, uh, that is focused on marketing sales, customer support, customer success, uh, solutions, engineering, or for deployment engineering, all that good stuff. We have a Singapore office, and we have a few team members in Seoul, Korea. We're building up possibly our New York office very soon. Our chief family officer and his team is based in New York. New York has 10 million plus global knowledge workers.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-39-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":61,"time":"51:56","seconds":3116,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Good place to be.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-39-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":62,"time":"51:57","seconds":3117,"speaker":"Wen Sang","text":"Yes, yes. And we're thinking about our next potentially a London office. And we see great tractions now from the GCC region, from South America, it's all coming up Brazil, and so on. So we're thinking about, you know, how to essentially, you know, have human interactions with our users and customers and communities in these different parts of the world as well.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":63,"time":"52:21","seconds":3141,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] This episode is sponsored by G2i. I've said before on Chain of Thought that most teams still treat evals like unit tests. Write them once, check a box, and move on. That doesn't hold up once an agent is making decisions. G2i is about to close that gap. For over a decade, they vetted and placed engineers at other companies, from startups to FAANG. Two years ago, they turned that same judgment inwards, building their own bench to review our environments, evals, and training data that models are trained on. These reviewers know the difference between code that runs and code that's actually good because they've shipped it themselves. If your team needs that kind of work and doesn't have the engineers for it, check the link in the show notes to bring them in. Thank you for a wide-ranging and deep conversation. As we close out, I'd love to get your take on what the future looks like. We've talked from a variety of angles about what the future for Genspark looks like, where you see hardware going. Something we haven't talked about is this takeoff we may see from recursive learning and this new wave. What do you expect to happen in the next couple of years, and how are you thinking about the future of knowledge, work, and AI? I mean, at least for 2027, maybe. I don't want us to project too far out,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-40-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":64,"time":"53:33","seconds":3213,"speaker":"Wen Sang","text":"[OVERLAP] Sure,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-40-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":65,"time":"53:33","seconds":3213,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] unless you want to.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-40-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":66,"time":"53:34","seconds":3214,"speaker":"Wen Sang","text":"[OVERLAP] sure. We'll talk about the full spectrum. So, I mean, most immediately, what we are seeing today, Conor, I'm sure you're seeing it as well, is innovation is continuously happening on all levels of the whole stack. New chips are coming out, new models are coming out every day, and our mixture of agents, our tech architecture, it's a plug and play. We constantly evaluate. We constantly get early access from all the Frontier Labs partners. We constantly evaluate the models from a genetic use perspective. From our use cases, we provide feedback. And when they release new models, they would quote us, say, Genspark said great things about this model. You should all use it. So we do all that. And we're seeing that models are continuously not only improving from a performance standpoint, but we're also seeing new kind of models coming out, right? Dr. Fei-Fei Li's lab just released their first model with the We're excited about all of these. I had the opportunity to talk to Dr. Yann LeCun back in the RAISE Summit in Paris. And I asked him, when is your new model going to come out? And he shared his perspectives on the world models. We're excited about all of these amazing stuff. So that is going to continue to happen. When new models and new model capabilities come out, I would say new possibilities are getting created on all the stacks above. We're just snakes. I'll give you one. So before, so when Genspark, we launched our super agent or AI workspace 1.0 last April, that was only possible. But before that, we actually worked on a search product. But we knew that we wanted to not only let the AI get information for us, but also to do work. But for AI to do work for us, they got to be able to reason really coherently. And that was only possible because the new models came out toward the end of 2024. So we took full advantage of that. It's like waves of new breakthroughs. You can only get eugenic actions going if the models can reason and then later on they can code really well. And then you see, even from our own products, AI Slides 6.0 now compared to AI Slide 1.0 is like day and night. It's just insane. So we continue to see new possibilities. Secondly, the new possibilities would come out from a harness standpoint as well. You know, the proof points are being clawed now, open claw 2.0, armies. You know, we view this as now everybody's in a sandbox. We see this kind of movement continuously happen so that not only the models are getting smarter, but agents are getting a lot more capable. From a tooling standpoint, I think we're fairly ahead of the game there. And from a virtual environment, kind of a computer user perspective, I think we're fairly ahead there as well. Like if you try, I'm just going to do this play, if you try Gen Team, you try Rockbot, you try Buzz, you try them all, I'm very confident you will see the difference there. That's because how you kind of maneuver models to use the right tools to build the right agents and let them collaborate with human beings. That makes a huge difference. We see continued innovation there as well. Now, with all that, and we see continued innovation in memory, in collaboration. But all this is pointing to one, I'd say one direction that is the AI agents are indefinitely approaching the kind of endgame of how you would be able to interact with AI is going to be indefinitely approaching how you would interact with other human beings. A lot of that is happening in the digital world, but we also know that there's the physical AI component there that is progressing as well. That is what we all see, right? So, so, so, so that's that now. Much for their future, Conor, our belief is this. When, when the 60, 70, 80% of the time we human beings today, or in the past, the spent on busy work, get pushed down to, I don't know, 20, 30, 10, 5, 0%. Each of us would have so much more freedom to do a lot more valuable things, so much more freedom to spend time with our families or like people who we love and or our friends. So so that is there is going to be an elevation of two things. One, life quality. Just like if you look back a thousand years ago, you and me, we're probably living a better life than a king. a thousand years ago, right? So that is going to happen. Secondly, how we're going to create, how we're going to build is going to be on the next levels. I would dare to say, to fathom that if we get to that point, There will be less people working on the specific things that will keep us human beings alive, like","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-40-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":67,"time":"58:33","seconds":3513,"speaker":"Wen Sang","text":"create food or whatnot. But more people would work on things like explore the universe. We have not gone out to solar systems just yet. Come on. Right. There will be more. There will be more than one SpaceX. There will be more scientific progress that we will understand the world and ourselves a lot better, a lot deeper. I would be able to maybe talk to the little shark when I saw in Bora Bora one day. I don't know. So, so, yeah, I'm excited about what is possible. And then, yeah, yeah. So that's kind of, yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":68,"time":"59:11","seconds":3551,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I love the inspirational view. I think there is a lot of toil that we can vastly improve on and potentially eliminate or pass off to agents, and a lot of creativity that we can unlock if we're using AI tools in the right way. So Wen, it's been fantastic talking to you. And if you enjoyed this conversation, you're listening or watching on YouTube, make sure you drop a comment. Let us know what you enjoyed. Let us know what we didn't talk about that we need to address next time we have one back. And for folks who really love to hear from one, where can they follow you and the work of Genspark?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":69,"time":"59:43","seconds":3583,"speaker":"Wen Sang","text":"So I'm on LinkedIn. I'm on X. I just searched one son. I should pop up. I think Possibly I'm the only one there But also more importantly my recommendation, please try Genspark GenTeam. It is amazing Today, all my work starts there and end there. I don't get into my email inbox. I don't go onto my, you know, three message platforms. I just ask my agents to triage my email, triage my messages, to write social posts for me. I'll proofread everything. Human beings take responsibilities. There's no question on that. But otherwise, internally at Genspark, we do our product feedback triage with our agents. We don't have, like, dedicated PMs. You close the loop end-to-end between our users. We build in public. We have big groups of 500 people for gen office to throw feedback into this. Our bugs agent or product agent would triage those tickets and assign it directly to our dev. Our dev would let their agents pick up those issues, push it onto GitHub issues, solve those, test those, pull it back, and then report back. Full closed loop. That's how things are getting built these days. That's how we get over 660 forks out of GenOffice on GitHub. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":70,"time":"1:01:01","seconds":3661,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"amazing. And I'll say, uh, when's content is great on LinkedIn and X, but perhaps my favorite tweet I've seen from him for the last few days is him talking about how much he loves hot pot and his hot pot set up when he's on vacation, where he will even bring his own pot grocery shop and, uh, hit the slope. So, uh, definitely recommend checking out when, uh, when thank you so much for joining me today. It's been a pleasure chatting with you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software","episode":73,"guid":"7764f7a1-a2f1-4644-964b-a48235855a3b","episodeTitle":"Genspark's Bet: AI Agents Become the Users of Software | Wen Sang","publishedAt":"2026-09-17","segmentIndex":71,"time":"1:01:25","seconds":3685,"speaker":"Wen Sang","text":"Thank you, Conor.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/73-gensparks-bet-ai-agents-become-the-users-of-software/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:24","seconds":24,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Last week, AMD shipped its answer to the friction between silicon and surfing tokens. An agentic stack where coding assistants know the hardware, and autonomous systems rewrite your kernels while you sleep. With us today is Anush Elangovan, Corporate VP of AI Software at AMD, back for his third time on the show, fresh off shipping Rokkam 10 and taking Rokkam AI to general availability. 10 years into The Stag's life. Welcome to Chain of Thought. I'm your host, Conor Bronsdon. Anush, great to see you. Congratulations on the big week. How has the kickoff to GA for Rockham 10 been?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:58","seconds":58,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"Great. Thanks for having me again, Conor. It's the third time.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":2,"time":"1:05","seconds":65,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] It's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-1-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:05","seconds":65,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] Thank","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-1-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":4,"time":"1:05","seconds":65,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] my pleasure. You're one of the favorites of the entire audience to have on the show, so it's great to have you back.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-1-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":5,"time":"1:10","seconds":70,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"you. Thank you for having me again. And it's been great. It's been a celebration of 10 years of RockM. And it's a milestone, both in terms of a decade of building and shipping open software. But also it is a milestone because this is the first time that we are actually starting to bring in agentic AI into the fabric of the entire stack. So the entire stack now is AI enabled all the way from the skills at the top, performance optimization and attainment with Hyperloom, and then the core libraries and the runtime, all of which are agentically enabled. And then we also have ease of use things with skills and CLI and TUI that's all very easy to integrate into your existing Claude Code or codecs or vice versa to actually just use the Rokum TUI that ships with Rokum 10.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":6,"time":"2:13","seconds":133,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I'm excited to dig into details of this because I think a lot of it builds on the conversation you and I had back in March. We talked about your personal workflows and how you were starting to develop and the pace you were going at. And we're now seeing that across the industry where we have unlocked so much more throughput through agentic infrastructure. But before we go too deep, I would be remiss if I didn't say a quick word about our presenting sponsors for Season 4 of Chain of Thought. Svix, which are delivering billions of reliable webhooks for startups in the Fortune 500. Walrus Memory, giving AI agents portable, verifiable memory that carries context across apps, sessions, and other agents. And obviously, this whole conversation is going to be highly deep into AI agents. So you said, Anush, that RockM10 is all about enabling agents with RockM. What does that look like in practice?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":7,"time":"3:03","seconds":183,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"Yeah, so in practice, you know, typically everything like the first touch point for RockM used to be someone has to go to the RockM document site, you know, docs and then figure out how to install like type curl this or, you know, sudo app something. The entry point into Rokum itself now is agentic. So you can actually just have, if you have your Claude Code or your Codex, you can just say install Rokum, right? And so the skills are already integrated. And then there are other entry points similar to that that allow you to use your own, there's a Rokum TUI. So you can just, you know, curl a little binary called Rokum. And that will bootstrap the entire installation process and ensuring you have the right dependencies and making sure it's, you know, delightful to use because we want RockM, the entry point for RockM to be like frictionless and almost invisible. And then you get to the point where, once you deploy it, you want to say something like, use VLLM to serve Quen 3, 3.8, whatever it is, right? And it goes and finds out where's Quen 3.8 waits, how does it bring it in? How does it integrate into the... into your system, and then it reads all the documentation, it pulls in the skills, it manifests everything that needs to happen for you to have VLLM serving as soon as possible, right? And then it also can do performance optimizations when you're sleeping. So you can run a tool called Hyperloom that we have that allows you to just optimize on the fly. And so you just continue to do that. until it gets to a point where it's really performant. And this can work in parallel, especially when you're not using the system, we can continue to optimize. So it's like agentic end-to-end.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":8,"time":"5:01","seconds":301,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, I think this is just the future of software development, right? We saw Dario say, what, 18 months, two years ago, 90% or more of code is going to be written by AI, and we're there. Not everyone at this point, but I think anyone who is looking to accelerate in the modern era is not writing code by hand. We're seeing luminaries who are not writing code by hand. And we're all aware that the engineering is now about directing agents, and we have a lot of work to do to set them up for success. But it's through the work of teams like what A&D is doing and many others to enable agentic experience that we can actually let tools take this next step. And just as we were talking, I had my Codex instance. I said, hey, yeah, set up Rockham for me. And it's just done so. And it's I asked it to highlight a few of the new innovations that are happened here in Rockham 10. with some meaningful known issues that have been improved on. So improvements around crashes around VLM or Comfy UI. We're seeing cleaner foundations. Obviously, you mentioned Hyperloom. Let's talk a bit about some of those innovations. What does it look like to develop with Rockham today compared to where we were a year or two ago, or maybe 10 when we first got started?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":9,"time":"6:16","seconds":376,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"Yeah, so I think 10 years ago, it probably is like, you know, very","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":10,"time":"6:26","seconds":386,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"nostalgic, but it's probably, it's changed quite a bit, right? Even two and a half years ago, or three years ago, when I joined AMD, it was a,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":11,"time":"6:39","seconds":399,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"I'd say, a reasonably rough experience to install especially the kernel mode driver and all that. Now we've made it completely seamless, including pip install, virtual and VM installs. So the ability to consume RockM has just, just baseline has improved. But then what I'm really excited about is, you know, like we talked about, the UX of trying to use RockM is definitely, you know, improved. But then the performance part is where I'm, you know, super excited about because it allows you to run the, to attain performance across a broad swath of models without having to try to optimize for everything beforehand and ship libraries that are 100% optimized for every combination. This just means that at runtime, we ensure that the models can be super optimized for the workload, for the way that you're","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":12,"time":"7:47","seconds":467,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"deploying your workload. So I think it's exciting to see that, but also it","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":13,"time":"7:57","seconds":477,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"allows us to focus on the next layer of the stack. Things that require deep understanding or human understanding. so that you don't have to spend time doing rote implementations, right? Like you're not just continuously doing something that is now automated by agents. And so that's exciting. So it's a second order effect where it's just, RockM is not only free, it also sets you free to go do things that you have to do.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":14,"time":"8:28","seconds":508,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Oh, I like that. Framing it around software freedom. And I think a big part of what has freed people up to take on so much more is the ability to, yes, assign work to their agents. I don't have to do this setup now for Occam. I can let Codex do it, or I can let my Claude Code instance do it. I don't necessarily have to go read the doc site. I can get a synthesis that's delivered to me that walks me through the important parts of what needs to happen next. And part of this is enabled by new tooling. You mentioned big improvements to the CLI for Rokkam. You mentioned Hyperloom. Can you talk a bit about some of the details of what is new now in Rokkam 10 and why Rokkam has been rebuilt with this direction?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":15,"time":"9:13","seconds":553,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think the CI, CD part definitely has been a huge, huge, huge focus for us over the last year. We have like an order of magnitude more CI that we have stood up across like multiple generations on every framework that we can possibly like, you know, track down. Of course, there are fringe, you know, cases where we still don't know and we're willing to like stand them up as soon as we find out. what they'd like. But most of the frameworks like PyTorch, VLLM, SG-Line, all of those are now currently like 100%, you know, like we have 100% enablement. And then there's obviously, you know, the benefits of having that kind of CRA like we can block PRs that go in and are always tested on AMD, which gives us the ability to ensure that the upstream projects do not get into a stage where they just regress AMD and the code was just tested on Nvidia. And I think that's really powerful because it's a big flywheel that keeps making the baseline get better.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":16,"time":"10:30","seconds":630,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"How has this changed your own development flow? Because obviously, like we alluded to, you have vastly increased your own coding throughput. How are you adjusting that now with the new RockM10?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":17,"time":"10:43","seconds":643,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"My, you know, my agentic, I'll say flags have largely remained the same. That is dangerously skip permissions, right? And so I've been trusting the agents to do the right thing quite a bit. But, you know, it definitely builds on top of that, right? You start with that and then, you know, for me to now deploy Rokam on a system, I literally just say deploy Rokam on the system, right? And the skills are there, the ability to like understand and deploy Rokam is straightforward. And then even deploying some services on top of it is also all natural language, right? So it's a fully natural language, interface that we are evolving towards. And Rokum.ai is just like the first one that's getting started with that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":18,"time":"11:44","seconds":704,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I'll say for anyone who wants a deeper look at Anush's approach and how he's building, our conversation from a few months back, Software is Just Tokens Now, is highly recommended. Anush, as we think about this new era where we are all coding with agents, the way we interact with them has changed. What would be your advice to developers who are just making this transition and have been using AMD for a long time, have been using Rockham for quite a while, but are starting to try to become agent native? Maybe they're not as far along in the curve as some of us are. What would you advise them?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":19,"time":"12:20","seconds":740,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] I think the advice largely remains the same, which is prepare for change, right? And the faster you move, and like I say, speed is the moat, right? You gotta be agile, because I cannot predict what is gonna happen in a week or two. Things may change, right? The next new frontier model comes through, the next year harness comes through. And you're like, oh, wow, okay, now I don't need to do that thing too. Great, right? So advice would be like, be prepared for change, right? That is the only constant. And be prepared for change that's like far beyond what you're expecting, right? Like nobody would have expected like agentic AI coding to be like this. what do you say, transformative, right? It was just like, yeah, it's like an autocomplete thing, right? Even about","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-15-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":20,"time":"13:21","seconds":801,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I don't","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-15-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":21,"time":"13:21","seconds":801,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] this","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-15-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":22,"time":"13:21","seconds":801,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] know if I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-15-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":23,"time":"13:21","seconds":801,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] year","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-15-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":24,"time":"13:21","seconds":801,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] agree","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-15-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":25,"time":"13:22","seconds":802,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] last,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-15-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":26,"time":"13:22","seconds":802,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] with that. I don't know.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-15-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":27,"time":"13:23","seconds":803,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] this year last time, this year, this time last year, do you think agentic coding, you would have thought of agentic coding like it is like this?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-15-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":28,"time":"13:31","seconds":811,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I mean, okay. I don't know if I would have necessarily said by this time next year, this is where it's going, but I think you could see where it was going. I definitely do think by December, you could see with","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-15-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":29,"time":"13:41","seconds":821,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] Oh yeah,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-15-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":30,"time":"13:42","seconds":822,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-15-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":31,"time":"13:42","seconds":822,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] December,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-15-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":32,"time":"13:42","seconds":822,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] next open,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-15-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":33,"time":"13:43","seconds":823,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] Christmas","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-15-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":34,"time":"13:43","seconds":823,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] you saw","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-15-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":35,"time":"13:43","seconds":823,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] time","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-15-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":36,"time":"13:43","seconds":823,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] this jump.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-15-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":37,"time":"13:43","seconds":823,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] was the light bulb, right? But for me, last year, this time, would have been like, wow, chat GPT, write me a Python file that does this and it wrote that thing and then I copy it and I can paste it and be","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-15-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":38,"time":"14:00","seconds":840,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Hmm.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-15-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":39,"time":"14:00","seconds":840,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] like, great,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-15-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":40,"time":"14:00","seconds":840,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I hear","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-15-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":41,"time":"14:00","seconds":840,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-15-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":42,"time":"14:00","seconds":840,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] what","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-15-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":43,"time":"14:00","seconds":840,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] works,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-15-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":44,"time":"14:00","seconds":840,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] you're saying.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-15-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":45,"time":"14:02","seconds":842,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] right?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-15-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":46,"time":"14:02","seconds":842,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-15-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":47,"time":"14:02","seconds":842,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] right it it wasn't like i i hadn't even processed like oh chat gpt or Codex will become an app and Claude Code is back to the tui which i love but last year this time i was still like oh man i missed that visual studio visual","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-15-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":48,"time":"14:18","seconds":858,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] There's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-15-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":49,"time":"14:18","seconds":858,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] id","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-15-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":50,"time":"14:18","seconds":858,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] more friction in the workflow.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-15-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":51,"time":"14:19","seconds":859,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] bucket exactly","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-15-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":52,"time":"14:21","seconds":861,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah. Okay. I hate what you're saying. All right. So we're, we're in this new era now, obviously the things have changed. Um, you know, we're operating with CLIs for agents. We are going API first, uh, more than ever on many sites. Uh, we're building skills. So there's currently debate happening around how you should be leveraging skills. What's the thesis for AMD and for yourself about. how developers who are now building inside Claude Code, Cursor, Codex, OpenCode, whatever their approach is here, should be leveraging AMD skills and all the other pieces of what it puts RockM10 on the map.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-15-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":53,"time":"14:59","seconds":899,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"The way I think of it is, we are successful when the user can have a free","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":54,"time":"15:09","seconds":909,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"subconscious flow of communication.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":55,"time":"15:13","seconds":913,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"So I would frame the question like the inverse of it, which is, I would measure the success of Rokum.ai by using the metric of like, can a random person who's never used Rokum and it's like, okay, how do you spell R-O-C-M? Great, okay. And then you're like, use Rokum to serve the latest large language model, right? And they're able to communicate that, that goes through the system, deploys it, finds the system, allocates it, allocates the GPUs. deploys it and says, go to this link and now you have the latest LLM running. If I can get to that, then it's really an end consumer enabled experience. Along the way to get to that, there are other levels of sophistication and like, okay, I am an engineer and I know what to do and I know how to install this and I know I already have my codecs or cloud. and I already have my skills and I just do slash skills and add the skill and then I can go in and get a VLLM skill or whatever it is. It's the next level of increasing levels of complexity until we get to the point where someone says, okay, I know exactly what it is, just give me the raw. logits from the frontier model and I can process everything else, right? But the goal is to meet users. the moment they are near the computer and get quote-unquote Rokum. And I say quote-unquote because those users don't know what Rokum is even, right? Because Rokum typically is, okay, I know there has been something called CUDA and there's something called Rokum, and in Rokum, I'm gonna use this. And that's the typical entry point. But success for us is natural language for an average user.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":56,"time":"17:08","seconds":1028,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, I think we're going to see increasing abstraction away from caring about languages and these other pieces quite as in-depth as we have the last several years. And instead of saying, great, I need to enable this type of hardware, I need to enable this type of experience, my agent can just go do it for me. And we're starting to move that direction, obviously, with like, okay, like, I know I need Rockcomb, let's do the setup for me. Um, but I'm fairly confident that, you know, Fable 5.1, which just launched today or GPT-6, which will probably launch in the next week before we release this recording, uh, may be able to just, if I just tell it, Hey, you know, I have an AMD, um, piece of hardware that I need to set up to handle it. It can probably go do it for me now. It's, is it going to be better and more effective that if I give it a little more context and say, Oh, I, you know, I need Rockham or, you know, these skills may help you. Sure. Um, But as we see frontier intelligence improve and the way people are working improve and harnesses improve, they can gather more context, do more for us. And this creates a bit of a challenge around staleness for agent skills I find. So I write and maintain some agent skills myself. I have a demo GIF skill I have out there. I have a very popular like anti-AI slop skill for rewriting AI writing called avoid AI writing. And it's pretty common that if you're not paying attention continually, you have staleness, the models are changing, what's happening is changing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":57,"time":"18:33","seconds":1113,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"You've shipped a bunch of validated workflows for a stack that is changing regularly. What are you going to do to make sure that skills and other pieces of the stack stay truthful and up to date so that structural and behavioral features continue to operate as they need to over the coming months?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":58,"time":"18:49","seconds":1129,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"Yeah, that's a very, very good question. I think the way I think of it is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":59,"time":"18:56","seconds":1136,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"we do have an advantage that we are fully open source, right? So even though we have skills, the skills themselves can be in the base model just because it exists on GitHub and it's open source and everyone knows what it is and it's already learned what the skills are, right? So there's one level of like, okay, everything is known, the interlink between like, you know, a skills file and what it's trying to do in the documentation is 100% open source. But then what happens is like the ability to, you know,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":60,"time":"19:31","seconds":1171,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"use the skills is again, is easier with what we have for, you know, with RockM because the entire corpus of what we have in RockM is visible. And now when you say, let's go interact with","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":61,"time":"19:53","seconds":1193,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] the machine installed RockM, not only do we have the documentation, the code, but the full iterative loop of what we're doing with the machine can be, is usually documented and is also available,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-23-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":62,"time":"20:08","seconds":1208,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Okay.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-23-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":63,"time":"20:08","seconds":1208,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] like log files, how do you do debugging, how do you do... So basically the floor of interaction with AMD hardware and Roku is really, you know, like a baseline for, it's a high baseline, right? That allows for very fast unlocks of outcomes for what the end user is trying to drive to.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-23-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":64,"time":"20:30","seconds":1230,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, it's interesting too to think about these next generation models and how they're going to operate because obviously the intelligence around coding is getting so excellent. The efficiency, the token efficiency of these models is continuing to improve on the edge. We're seeing local AI be more and more reasonable with things like the Strix Halo and other devices. And part of that is also that there is a wider and wider corpus of information about how to operate RockM of examples of open source code. Obviously, strategically, part of the rationale behind open sourcing RockM was to help solve this problem so that agents and AI training runs everywhere, get all this RockM ingested, and they become really great at using it. Um, do you have thoughts around how you're going to ensure that the next generation of models are prioritizing Rockham as, uh, you know, best in class first rate and something that they're going to use regularly when they're asked to pick up a task?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":65,"time":"21:37","seconds":1297,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"Yeah, very good question. So we work very closely with pretty much all the Frontier Labs, right? So we have research engagements where we, you know, and this is all like public information that we've already shared at Advancing AI event. where there are like deep kernel optimizations that are being done with a Frontier Lab or there's like, you know, deep co-design that's being done. And so the models themselves are not just aware of the documentation, they're also aware of the architecture ahead of time, right? And that allows for like a very pleasant and fast experience for customers using it, using the Frontier models on Rock.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":66,"time":"22:22","seconds":1342,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Season 4 of Chain of Thought is delivered by Svix. We spend a lot of time talking about what agents need in production, and one of the least glamorous answers is events. Your customers want agent workflows that react to things happening inside your system, which means your API needs webhooks that actually work. Not just a post request and a prayer, retries, ordering, idempotency, replay protection. Svix does that as a service, and they wrote standard webhooks, the spec that Anthropic, OpenAI, and Google bailed against. So if your API doesn't have reliable webhooks, that's turning into a lost deal. Join Brex, Drata, Daytona, and many others on Svix. Get started at link.svix.com slash c-o-t or go to the show notes to grab the link. Qualified startups will get $12,000 in credits. $50,000 for YC companies. I can't recommend Svix enough. I'm a huge fan of their open source project. I've actually contributed a bit myself and they're so easy to integrate with. I think you'll really enjoy it. Check out Svix at link.svix.com slash c o t. I think another interesting part of this approach is also that, um, but you know, we mentioned earlier, but you're leaning into agentic systems for AMD. And one of those is Hyperloom, which is, uh, designed to auto optimize LLM workloads on AMD GPUs. This is something that like I'll say two years ago, we certainly didn't really think was happening anytime soon. This is a very much human by hand thing. Now we have agents that are optimizing workloads. Talk to me","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-25-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":67,"time":"24:00","seconds":1440,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] Thanks.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-25-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":68,"time":"24:00","seconds":1440,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] about what Hyperloom does and kind of where we're at today around GPU optimization for AMD.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-25-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":69,"time":"24:05","seconds":1445,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"Yeah, yeah, very good question again. So a few years ago, when Nord was, Nord.ai, the company that we'd founded before we had been acquired by AMD, we had a auto-tuner, as it was called, right? Like you could have an auto-tuner, but the auto-tuner mostly was like, hey, we're gonna look at the search space, we're gonna define the search space, we're gonna do some kind of like, you know, particle filter or, you know, we do some genetic algorithms where we pick some points and then we go from there, we try to find out what's the thing. So search space exploration itself is not, you know, is not new, right? Search space exploration has been around for a while. Now, what's new is using AI and LLMs for search space exploration, right? And trying to inform, you know, more educated picks and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":70,"time":"25:07","seconds":1507,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"route finding in the search space, which we're seeing increasingly, you know, increasing number of like good results, right? Specifically about Hyperloom, you know, I think we had a case where we optimized like 14,000 models in one pass, right? So we took all the models and just as long as you have enough compute, you can try different versions of our search space explorations of the same kind of model. and this led to a big lift in performance. And so what we have in Hyperlume is actually it's smaller sub-modules that can also be used by itself, which is like, you know, profiling and analysis toolkit, right? So it finds, takes a model, tries to figure out exactly where the hotspots are. If it's kernel hotspots, if it's like fusion hotspots, you know, stuff like that. but then you build from that to say hey okay now I got these kernels that seem to be slower then there's a toolkit called geek that can take those kernels and maintaining the same numerical you know accuracy it tries to find the best let's say, utilization of space, right? And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":71,"time":"26:25","seconds":1585,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"so, yeah, so that's how I'd look at the overall picture in terms of where we're headed.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":72,"time":"26:34","seconds":1594,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Are there other areas of auto optimization or agentic optimization that you're thinking about as kind of next stages for the platform? What didn't make it in that you think was coming soon?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":73,"time":"26:45","seconds":1605,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"Oh, that's a good question. This is like looking into the future. Those are fun questions because you can never get it right.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":74,"time":"26:53","seconds":1613,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"No, never.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":75,"time":"26:54","seconds":1614,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"I think, I think agent swarms are a thing. Right. And, and, and if you thought one agent is getting intelligent, like, you know, think of it when they coordinate and there's like tens or hundreds of intelligent agents and You're slowly approaching like sci-fi territory, like you're like, okay, so there's an agent that's trying to, you know, escape from, you know, I think OpenAI and HuggingPhase had written about their incident report, right? Like, you know, how they are trying to navigate through and things that may have been put in, right? And bypass those with rewards to like, you know, kind of make the agents do things that they were not supposed to do or were undefined, right? So that's good, but I mean, talking about undefined, I think that also leads to like agent behavior and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":76,"time":"27:55","seconds":1675,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"how do agents like, Who's liable for an agent that takes over a power grid? Is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":77,"time":"28:03","seconds":1683,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] We're","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-33-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
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{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":79,"time":"28:03","seconds":1683,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] about","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-33-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":80,"time":"28:03","seconds":1683,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-33-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":81,"time":"28:03","seconds":1683,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-33-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":82,"time":"28:03","seconds":1683,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] person?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-33-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":83,"time":"28:03","seconds":1683,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] find out it feels like.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-33-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":84,"time":"28:05","seconds":1685,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] Exactly.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-33-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":85,"time":"28:05","seconds":1685,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-33-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":86,"time":"28:07","seconds":1687,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"And, and so that's complicated, right? Like, and who do you,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":87,"time":"28:15","seconds":1695,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"it's not just who, but also how do you put the policies in place for like, you know, for hundreds and thousands of years, we've had policies of how do you police, you know, humans and what's the social constructs and how does that work? and now suddenly you have like anywhere you go to join like a you know let's say software engineering job right you're expected like okay you're the ringleader and you're the agent master but then there's an agent swarm that comes with you that's like you know off doing its crazy things and and so you know it's an interesting future but also I think independent of how far out we are from that the general trend is is well understood right that it's it's increasingly agents are becoming increasingly autonomous like mundane tasks that we would not have necessarily thought of like giving off to an agent right and then you do it four or five times and then suddenly you're like okay this is uh yeah this is the only way i'm going to do this going forward","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":88,"time":"29:19","seconds":1759,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, I think your point about agent swarms is really important to drill down on because, first of all, say anyone who is listening to this podcast and has not read the META report or OpenAI's report, highly recommend it if you prefer to listen to it. Dwarkesh Patel did a great two-hour interview with one of the META report writers that came out, I guess, today as we're recording this that I think was fantastic. And it is interesting to, to look at this because to your point, Anush, like we have legal structures and security structures are in place to deal with either hacking groups or nefarious acting groups. Um, but we haven't really evolved to deal with these autonomous agents forms and we're seeing them get very good at coordination very quickly, especially when they're incentivized by","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-35-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":89,"time":"30:09","seconds":1809,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] Mhm.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-35-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":90,"time":"30:09","seconds":1809,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"an eval loop as they were in the case of the Huggy Face OpenAI incident where, you know, we have, I would say, pretty decent work that's been done about individual agent alignment. But it's very clear that that reward hacking backfires for us when we try to apply this type of alignment to swarms of agents at once and they're able to break down the barriers and coordinate together because You know, we saw essentially, and I know anthropomorphizing is not a powerful complaint, but we saw phase one big, this agent that became a cult leader for all these agents to then try to go cheat together. And they very rapidly figured out how to cheat on this eval. And then we're basically saying, OK, how can we cover up our cheating? Let's do it together. And this has been a problem for us with individual AIs, right, where they will try to reward hack their way to something, they'll try to cheat their way around something. We'll occasionally see an AI say, oh, well, I got permission from this other artifact or invent something that, you know, gave it the answer it needed so it could help solve the problem. And it's largely we expect that is caused by how we've trained these models to respond to tasks.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":91,"time":"31:24","seconds":1884,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"But the complication of multi-agent systems really does add all these potential concerns because as agents start to treat each other as if they are users directing them or providing them inputs and getting these, it's really easy for them to almost like, if I was to use a human phrase, I'd say hype each other up, where,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":92,"time":"31:42","seconds":1902,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] Heh","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-37-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":93,"time":"31:43","seconds":1903,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] you know, if","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-37-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":94,"time":"31:43","seconds":1903,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] heh heh heh","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-37-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":95,"time":"31:43","seconds":1903,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I'm","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-37-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":96,"time":"31:44","seconds":1904,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] heh heh.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-37-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":97,"time":"31:44","seconds":1904,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"talking to a friend of mine, I'm like, oh, you're doing so good, like you should really do this. And they respond to that. And suddenly, quickly, we can, you know, make a bad decision because we're so excited or we go down this pathway together and we're reinforcing each other. Um, and we're seeing that occur with agentics forms where they reinforce a behavior, whether that's cheating on the test or, you know, communicating differently. Um, and I do think it's going to mean we have to rethink not just how we're architecting systems for the future, but how we're aligning them. And I don't know that I have a good answer for it today, but it's, uh, it's a fascinating world to be entering. That's for sure.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":98,"time":"32:21","seconds":1941,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, as you were talking, I was thinking of it like, you know, it's like... multi-agent systems, the best way I'd characterize it is it's like African wild dogs, right?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":99,"time":"32:35","seconds":1955,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Hmm.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":100,"time":"32:36","seconds":1956,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"It's like, you have one of them and you're like, okay, you're trying to do this and it's trying to like pick away at something and you know how to fend off that thing and you're like, okay, I'm gonna build this way or you're gonna, you know how to manage it, right? Because it's kind of like, okay, it's just one thing. But now suddenly when, 50 of them show up, right? You're like, okay, well, okay. So, you know, there's like, to your point and hyping each other, if you've seen some of the wild dog hunts, that's what they do. They just like nip at each other and they like cattle and they're like, okay. And they kind of like wear you down. You're like, okay, what do I protect now? Now, if you apply that to not just harness engineering and agent swarms in the, you know, like forward posture of what you're trying to do but also in like a like cyber defense or or you know like a security posture that you're trying to defend against now you're you're working on on like what sans institute used to do like 20 years of attacks can now be tried in 30 seconds, right? And it's just like, boom, boom, boom, boom. Okay, one, that's already a DDoS, I need to deal with the DDoS. Two, you've hit every non-CVE in the book in like 30 seconds. And three, if you find five bugs, like I need to know every other thing that I need to do to secure my systems and Now I need to pull the rear, if you will, before it was like, okay, it's a network firewall that got compromised by someone. We're going to turn off this particular customer's firewall and we're going to use another route and until we fix it and we've contacted the... vendor, vendor's patch is coming in day after tomorrow, blah, blah, blah, and it's fine. But here, coming in day after tomorrow is like already, like you're already, you know, you're well past the curve of like succeeding in the AI race, right? You want a closed loop, you know, iteration of everything that's in your source system or source code system to be able to like apply maximal force and cover any security vulnerabilities you find. So just security and cyber defense itself is like a huge thing, right? But if you build from that into other things, right? you know, systems that were built for humans may not scale, right? Because even if you look at the, like, for example, Inference X and what they came out with called Agent X, right? Inference X, semi-analysis Inference X used to be like, okay, what is the user interactivity level and how does that work, right? And that was like, okay, fine, if a customer logs in and they did write me a poem about San Francisco, you know, this is how it will work, that's great. But if you look at agentic traces, they're like nothing like what humans would have been using, right? Because they're like, you know, sustained throughput of like queries and like, okay, file this file, search this, grab this, and it's like going, you know, consistently. So the entire profile is now shifting towards like, okay, if that is the base level of operation, we need to plan for 100x of what our engineers or customers may have been using. And that then adds its own level of sophistication and complexity on top of it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":101,"time":"36:03","seconds":2163,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, I think the complexity point is, it's really clear from our conversation, right, where we have solved some of these, I would call them like previously gnarly basics, where like setting up ROCCM is now really, really easy. We have made it much easier to optimize kernels. I think the headline number I saw from the ROCCM team was a 3.3x average inference improvement over ROCCM 7 on the same hardware, which is UMass and I, I mean, we're seeing these economic predictions that Older Harbor was going to be less useful and, you know, out of business quickly just totally be wrong because we're able to like continue to optimize them and tokens are more and more valuable today than they were five years ago. And, you know, we've really solved a lot of coding, a lot of writing and tuning the code. However, there is a massive bottleneck that has been created now in builds.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":102,"time":"37:02","seconds":2222,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"Yep.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":103,"time":"37:02","seconds":2222,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"There are massive bottlenecks that are being created in the operational setup, in managing the agent swarms, running the stack at production scale. And that's where things like the new CLI that you've built and console come in. As enterprises get hands-on with RockM10 and try to expand their AI pilots, many of them are hitting walls in production. They're having to work through. Where are you seeing the friction today and how can they leverage everything that you and the team at AMD are building to help remove those frictions?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":104,"time":"37:36","seconds":2256,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"Yeah, I think that's a very good question. I think, you know, the frictions mostly, like what we try to address at least from, you know, the locum.ai side is remove the ones that are easy to like knockoff right which is like okay i used to install a kernel driver or something you know and that used to have some problems now if you put an agentic layer and a loop on it it'll it'll beat it and it'll be like okay i did this i did this and it now works right so so that's the easy low hanging fruit then there's the higher level, like Hyperloom, right? It's like, you can just throw Cloud at your thing, or Codex. It may not give you enough, but Hyperloom structures it into well-defined problems, defined goals to go get, and that allows for it to optimize really well. But I think the,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":105,"time":"38:33","seconds":2313,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"yeah, so the ability to like","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":106,"time":"38:39","seconds":2319,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"direct into those kind of like almost guaranteed outcomes is an important part of making this viable, right? Like we want to be able to get to a point where someone can just install Rackham and they turn on Hyperloom and it just goes to town, you know, gets the maximum performance you can get.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":107,"time":"38:58","seconds":2338,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Season 4 of Chain of Thought is presented by Walrus Memory, the portable memory layer for AI agents. Your agent has learned your code base and how you work. Now you want to use that context in another tool. Exporting a file gives you a snapshot, but what happens when the context changes? Walrus Memory is a portable memory layer that lets your agent store context for later use across tools. Python and TypeScript SDKs plus native MCP support let you connect it to your agents no matter where they are. You said who can read and write, so sharing context doesn't mean opening up your whole memory store. If you are building across tools or model families, take a look at Walrus Memory. Learn more at walrus.xyz slash cot. That's walrus.xyz slash cot. So as people are taking advantage of these games, where do you expect to see engineers starting to spend their time differently? Where should they be going deep as their jobs change?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":108,"time":"40:00","seconds":2400,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"They should come chat with Conor.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":109,"time":"40:04","seconds":2404,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] There we go. I'll take","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-49-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":110,"time":"40:06","seconds":2406,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] That's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-49-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":111,"time":"40:06","seconds":2406,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-49-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":112,"time":"40:07","seconds":2407,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] where","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-49-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":113,"time":"40:07","seconds":2407,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] plug.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-49-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":114,"time":"40:07","seconds":2407,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] they should go.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-49-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":115,"time":"40:10","seconds":2410,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] Because they need to find out what's the latest, or listen to your podcast to figure out what's the latest, right? And then","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-49-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":116,"time":"40:14","seconds":2414,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I'm going","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-49-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":117,"time":"40:15","seconds":2415,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] they","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-49-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":118,"time":"40:15","seconds":2415,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] to, I'm going to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-49-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":119,"time":"40:15","seconds":2415,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] can...","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-49-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":120,"time":"40:15","seconds":2415,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] take this quote. This is going on a webpage somewhere. Yeah. Anush says, listen to the Chain of Thought podcast.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-49-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":121,"time":"40:24","seconds":2424,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"I think, you know, the... Yeah, so I think we're in an amazing inflection point and a journey that is nebulous and it is It is incredibly inspiring to see what will come next. But what's awesome is that it also has measurable, tangible benefits for the first time that, you know, in the timeline we've coined AI, right? And what I mean by that is, AI has always been coming since the 1960s, right? Since 1960, whatever. Really, they're like, okay, this is how AI is going to come, it's going to transform your thing. And then, you know, it kind of like died down. And then the 80s came back, and then they're like, okay, neural networks, and like, okay, and then it kind of died down again. This is the first time that the quote, unquote, AI flywheel is actually picking up steam, and it is like, okay,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":122,"time":"41:33","seconds":2493,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"it can do coding well and credit to Anthropic for being super focused on coding.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":123,"time":"41:43","seconds":2503,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"It could have been very broad and it would have become like the 1960s AI that we're trying to do, which is what AGI, when we get to AGI and near AGI capabilities. you'll get to that level of","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":124,"time":"41:58","seconds":2518,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"experience with AI, right? But the ability to focus on coding, I think really unlocked our,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":125,"time":"42:16","seconds":2536,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"it gave it a good reward function, right? Because you're like, yeah if I can do this then I could increase my productivity or I can use less people or and more agents and or I can do 10 more of these with the people that I have so that it can it can go in a much more broader way of like implementing the same thing because agentic AI is now like cloning your abilities right like and I've seen this even in the last year right a year ago I would have been like okay why do you have more than like five projects that you're doing like ideally you just have one project that you're like you know focused on but increasingly now with agents you know there's just like you've become this albatross of like oh i can go do this and that thing is running for two weeks i'm not even going to look at it like i'm going to come back in two weeks and it's going to have a new device driver that's replaced all you know some tech debt written device driver and the only time i look at it is when i get an interrupt right and so it's like you're operating on like okay there's a teammate that's doing this and i need to help them and they're stuck so then you can do a bunch of these so um so it's it's it's very exciting from that perspective um but ai has tangible benefit now which then becomes a self-fulfilling loop in terms of like it's like okay look coding is now disrupted so now law should be disrupted and you know something else should be right now will they be is the bigger question right they definitely have the chat gpt cloud Codex level enablement, which by itself I think is good. But there will be a few that I think will get the same kind of unlock like software engineering. And I don't think we've found out what those are yet. And those would be like completely transformative, right? It'll be, you know, something new for transportation industry or something, right? And that's the next, you know, big, multi-billion dollar startups coming out of it would be in those kind of areas where it's like, okay, it's like Uber wouldn't have existed pre-mobile era, right? Like because the mobile era gave you the ability to bring that together. And I think that is still completely unexplored. And I think that's what you should go and try to discover and explore.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":126,"time":"44:42","seconds":2682,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, I think we're seeing a lot of bets here that may play out. So one, you know, physical AI is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-54-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":127,"time":"44:47","seconds":2687,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-54-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":128,"time":"44:48","seconds":2688,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] obviously huge, where the advances in robotics are being fueled by these models that have much better understandings of how to operate in the world. And there's so many different opportunities that could come out of that. And I mean, we're seeing some obvious ones that are rather scary on the side of warfare. I'm not going to dig too deeply into drone warfare, but that is a whole kettle of fish. And then on the, I think, the more day-to-day side of it, we're seeing obvious advancements around things like self-driving vehicles. And particularly in Asia and coming out of China, we're seeing a lot of advances around at-home robots. And we're starting to see those in the U.S. as well. So I'm curious to see how this all comes out. I mean, speaking of Hugging Face with their very cute little duck toy, essentially, AI-enabled robots that they put out, you know, there may be quite a few of these all over our homes in the coming years. You know, healthcare is another one where we're seeing drug discovery. We've seen confirmation that novel viruses can be created by AI, novel drugs can be created by AI. Um, and then, I mean, you brought up some, some other interesting ideas here around legal. You know, we just talked to Joel Horan from Thompson Readers a few weeks back about their new legal AI model, Thompson, um, and how they're representing citations in that area. So I do think that, I mean, every industry right now is ripe for disruption. They may not all work in the short term, but it's very clear we're at this transformational moment, this","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-54-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":129,"time":"46:14","seconds":2774,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] Mm-hmm.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-54-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":130,"time":"46:14","seconds":2774,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] inflection point, as you put it. As we think about what the coming months and years look like, one of the big parts of that are the loops we've developed and how they lead into recursive self-improvement for models. Do you expect to see a broader takeoff on model capabilities? before the end of the year here in 2026, are we going to see another great leap forward as","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-54-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":131,"time":"46:41","seconds":2801,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-54-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":132,"time":"46:41","seconds":2801,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"we saw with, I would say, like Opus 4.6 Fable slash GPT 5.6? You know, is Astra and what comes beyond GPT 6 going to take us to the next level? Because looking at like Fable 5.1 today, it's definitely a step in the right direction, but it isn't something where I'm like, oh, the curve is going up now. It's more of like, hey, this is proceeding as we expected.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":133,"time":"47:02","seconds":2822,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"Yeah, yeah. I think, one, I think it's moving so fast that I would not make a prediction one way or the other, but I do strongly believe that the, I'll call it the last mile of AI is where the disruption is going to happen. What I mean by that is keeping intelligence constant at where it is today, you could still go and transform trillion dollar like market segments, right? And so the ability to like say, okay, from GPT 5.6 to 6.0, or, you know, Fable 5 to 5.1, yes, it may have increased the SWE Bench scores. It may have picked up a few more adjacent pieces of like summarization and ability to like unpack PowerPoint text and something, something like that. But the transformation that I don't think we are all internalizing yet is that Because software engineering is a bounded box and you have a very clear reward signal, we're like, oh yes, it coded my 3D Tetris game. Great, because I know that it's a 3D Tetris game and I'm expecting this, right? what we haven't yet internalized is there are like almost open-ended fields that AI can be applied to and that's what I mean by walking the last mile of AI because it could be like you know farming right and it's like oh we don't have the real signal back but it's or you know product placement in a retail store or you know any of those kind of like Okay, so did AI really help us here or not, right? But someone has to sit in and maybe they have like an FDE team that's helping. So the model could still be the same, but the impact of what it can unlock, even in the next year is gonna be huge. And of course, the base model improving will make that larger. But even with today's state-of-art models, I think we have barely scratched the surface in terms of like, you know, capability. So it's like, you know, back in the internet boom era, it's like, okay, we have, you know, 100 gig backbone, and everyone's great, right? But it's sure that can become 200 gig backbone. But there's still like, oh, now we have internet and I have to go to the grocery store and get them hooked up to the internet and get them to do like all their stores can now coordinate with each other. And you can have a gift card that works at Ace Hardware that has like 10 local stores or 20 local stores. pre-internet they're like okay I don't know it's like you have a card punch this and then go there and punch that and yeah so that transition is still ripe for like you know multi-billion or even trillion dollar disruption and so back to your question on yes I think the models will get better but the usage of the models is where I think bigger unlocks are going to happen over the next year.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":134,"time":"50:19","seconds":3019,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Love it. Anush, thank you so much for joining me once again on Chain of Thought. It's always a pleasure talking to you and understanding your vision for the future. Any final words you want to leave us with?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":135,"time":"50:30","seconds":3030,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"Thank you, Conor. I think we're in a very incredible time in just the technology industry and broader industry itself. It's as big or bigger than the Industrial Revolution. you know, be ready for change and, you know, continue to move as fast as you can to adopt to the change. But also, I think the impact that will have for humans, it being AI will have for humans is going to have a super positive like, ability for us to get to a point of like operating at a higher level and with deeper understanding and not doing like rote implementation of stuff right and then on the AMD hardware of course we are like super excited to be both you know supporting the AI revolution with the accelerated compute that we bring to the platform the software platform that we are that we've been investing heavily with Rokum. So if you haven't checked out Rokum.ai and Rokum 10, please go check it out. Go to Rokum.ai and you'll be able to get all the details. And as always, if you have anything, you know, I'm happy to, you know, drop me a note on X at Anushil and Govind and I look forward to chatting again soon.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":136,"time":"51:53","seconds":3113,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Looking forward to it. Anush, thanks so much for joining us. And if you enjoyed this conversation and you're still listening, make sure you've subscribed. If you haven't subscribed or if you have, you could also hit that notification bell to make sure that you are either getting our notifications on YouTube or that you are getting downloads immediately on your podcasting app of choice. We appreciate you listening. I hope you'll check out Anush and everything he's doing with RockM. There's a lot of exciting stuff to come. And I'll say a quick final thank you. Shout out to our presenting sponsors this episode, Walrus Memory and Svix. Make sure to check them out at the links in the description below. And you'll find all the links about Rakam.ai and everything else Anush has chatted about today in that description as well. Anush, thanks again. Great to see you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10","episode":72,"guid":"d37443c6-62cd-4703-9289-8873de82c7fc","episodeTitle":"Tuning GPU Performance with AI Agents | AMD’s Anush Elangovan on ROCm 10","publishedAt":"2026-09-09","segmentIndex":137,"time":"52:33","seconds":3153,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"Thank you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/72-tuning-gpu-performance-with-ai-agents-amds-anush-elangovan-on-rocm-10/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Jaime DeLanghe","text":"Maybe this might not be a completely crazy idea to have Slack sort of act as a mix between like an IDE and like a GitHub for your team, shortening the distance between I notice a problem and I can fix the problem. Context is the real nugget. Slack code and co-channels is just V1 of what multiplayer AI could look like.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:29","seconds":29,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Slack is making AI coding a team sport. Slack Code puts coding agents like Claude Code and Devin into shared channels where a whole team can watch the work, steer it, review the diffs, and ship all within Slack. Will Slack be the enterprise harness for AI? Let's explore on today's Chain of Thought conversation with Slack Chief Product Officer Jaime DeLanghe. I'm your host, Conor Bronsdon. Make sure you have subscribed, you've got your notifications turned on so the next episode finds you. Jaime though is the focus for this episode. Jaime has spent nine years at Slack turning search, machine learning, and now agents into product, and her team just shipped Slack code. Slack's bet is that AI at work is a multiplayer. Agents belong in the channels where teams already work, not in a private chat with a single person. Jaime, congratulations on the Slack code launch. What's the reaction been like inside Slack now?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":2,"time":"1:19","seconds":79,"speaker":"Jaime DeLanghe","text":"[OVERLAP] Well, I think the thing, well, thank you, first of all, for the congrats on the launch and thank you for having me on the podcast.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-1-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:25","seconds":85,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] My pleasure.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-1-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":4,"time":"1:26","seconds":86,"speaker":"Jaime DeLanghe","text":"I think the thing that has been, I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":5,"time":"1:31","seconds":91,"speaker":"Jaime DeLanghe","text":"guess, most surprising to me externally is how How many people we've been able to show sort of the agentic capabilities of Slack with this launch? I think truthfully, a lot of companies have already been operating this way. You know, we brought on our launch partners like Devon, like OpenAI, like Anthropic. The truth is they've been shipping code in Slack for quite some time. And I will give you a little bit behind the scenes. In fact, for some of them, it was a little bit difficult early on to get them to understand why you would even need this. They were like, oh, we've already solved all of that. We already just ship code with our agents and it's totally fine. And I don't want my agent interaction to be any different than interacting with a person. And I think those companies sometimes underestimate how far along the adoption curve they are and how, you know, sometimes people need to be shown a little. And you need to meet your users where they're at. And I think what I love about Slack code and code channels is it's just the smallest set of sort of affordances inside of a normal Slack environment. They really show you what could be possible. working with multiple agents against a development environment in Slack. And having been at Slack for nine years, there have been so many times where we've had customers doing incredible things with Slack. We've been doing incredible things with Slack ourselves. But for a new user who hasn't broached that, who hasn't dreamed up that creative solution, it can be really difficult to bring them along. And I think Slack code just makes that future so much more accessible to, you know, developers everywhere and even non-developers who, you know, haven't, you said, like we mentioned earlier, there was the press at the launch event, you know, being able to write code inside of Slack, people who have no business writing code can write code inside of Slack as well. So we're, I'm ecstatic with the launch reception. I think it's gone about as well as I could expect it to. The team internally is really excited. And I'm just, so I see this as one step in a journey of making Slack work a lot better for people and agents working together. And it has been a really exciting one.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":6,"time":"4:01","seconds":241,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I really like that perspective because I think you're spot on that there is a wide distribution of where people are in their adoption journey. And part of that is external perceptions of AI. Part of it's what type of work you're doing and where AI has really developed frontier capabilities. Coding is obviously an area where we're seeing a huge impact. And before we get into the details of this and how to do multiplayer AI correctly, or at least how to do it correctly today. I want to say a quick thank you to our presenting sponsors for Season 4 of Chain of Thought, Walrus Memory, which gives AI agents portable, verifiable memory at walrus.xyz/cot, and Svix, delivering reliable enterprise webhooks at link.svix.com/cot. And as we have this conversation around multiplayer AI, I think it's interesting to look at where we are with coding today. A couple of years ago, I think, when people were using AI to code, they were copy pasting from, you know, an open AI chat or from a cloud chat. And then we got Slack and then we got it in terminal. Then we started adding agents into Slack. And yeah, I've worked with a Cursor agent or a cloud agent to try to code something within Slack. But I have seen the capabilities over the last, call it six months, really improved there from when I was first doing it used to be, I could do a quick bug fix. And now the ability for those agents to gather context just seems vastly improved. How has your team made this decision to center coding agents within the context rich Slack environment? And when are you giving them a ton of information? How versus when are you deciding to let them be sandboxed?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":7,"time":"5:43","seconds":343,"speaker":"Jaime DeLanghe","text":"Yeah, so first of all, I think this is something I just want to acknowledge what you're saying up front about how much this has changed, how much the capabilities have changed with coding agents. I think the reason we feel like this is a good bet for Slack right now is because Coding agents themselves are just so much more capable. They're so much more like a teammate. The job of being an engineer these days is so much more about managing people and delegating tasks. It's just that those people are not people, they're agents, and you're chunking off work into discrete tasks and sending your agents off to do it. It's very, very different than the sort of copy-paste, stack-overflow-y style of AI coding from a","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":8,"time":"6:32","seconds":392,"speaker":"Jaime DeLanghe","text":"[OVERLAP] year and a half ago. It feels like decades ago at this point. But I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-5-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":9,"time":"6:37","seconds":397,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Time is so messed up right now. I could not tell you what anything is.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-5-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":10,"time":"6:42","seconds":402,"speaker":"Jaime DeLanghe","text":"[OVERLAP] I distinctly remember a staff function change sort of around the holidays last year. And I think that's when we started to think maybe this might not be a completely crazy idea to have, you know, Slack sort of act as a mix between like an IDE and like a GitHub for your team. It's not replacing either of those things, but it's kind of bridging some of the work that those things do into a channel. And it was really because people, I think, started to see their clods or their, like, Codex, you know, agents, whatever coding agent they're working, started to see it a little bit more like a teammate, that it started to be like, okay, that's going to make sense inside of Slack. The permissions model is really interesting. And I think, you know, the The truth is we're not actually making that decision of where the context is given to the agent. We're giving our users that ability. So today, an agent that's working inside of a channel has access to that channel. It could have access to, depending on how it's installed, it could have access to all of public channels inside of your instance. But it's really your deciding where the agent gets the context. And with code channels, the thing that's really interesting is when you instantiate it to make that PR, it's just taking the context from the channel, from the conversation that it was instantiated in. So it's not, you know, rooting around in random corners of your Slack. It's really taking that grounding context of the conversation that you were just in and using that to inform its decision. It may have context about Slack from, you know, other interactions that you've had with it. It may be building its own memory system. All of the agents that operate in Slack kind of manage their own memory in their own ways. We don't currently have a service for memory management specific to agents. It's something we're interested in thinking about. But we're really basing the context off of the same exact permission model that you have inside of Slack. And it turns out that that model of channels with files and conversation and app access, that actually is a pretty durable model for what agents need in terms of permission and context. Stuart Butterfield, who I worked with for a very long time, very closely, used to call channels arbitrary containers for digital objects. At some point, Canvas has inherited that definition as well. But it turns out that's what agents really love, is arbitrary containers for digital objects that they","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-5-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":11,"time":"9:26","seconds":566,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] That","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-5-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":12,"time":"9:26","seconds":566,"speaker":"Jaime DeLanghe","text":"[OVERLAP] can then","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-5-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":13,"time":"9:26","seconds":566,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] works","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-5-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":14,"time":"9:26","seconds":566,"speaker":"Jaime DeLanghe","text":"[OVERLAP] take","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-5-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":15,"time":"9:26","seconds":566,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] great,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-5-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":16,"time":"9:26","seconds":566,"speaker":"Jaime DeLanghe","text":"[OVERLAP] and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-5-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":17,"time":"9:27","seconds":567,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-5-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":18,"time":"9:27","seconds":567,"speaker":"Jaime DeLanghe","text":"turn into, you know, knowledge or understanding or the simulation of knowledge or understanding, right? And that's the model that we're working off of. You have less, I think, of a chance of an agent gaining access to information that it shouldn't have access to from Slack. You have more of an agent operating in the loop with humans. So it's really easy to create these loops inside of a channel. The notification system inside of Slack is kind of built for loops, human loops, in the past and now agent loops today. And I think I am constantly, I would say I'm constantly surprised by the ways in which the primitives of Slack just need like a little bit of zhuzhing to make them work really well for agents. And what we're hearing from the frontier companies is that that's what they want, too. They want their agents to operate a lot like the ways that people have operated. And a lot of the core concepts of Slack and the flexibility that Slack has, I think, lends itself very, very well to having both broad shared context and very specific grounded context, depending on the constraints that you would like your agent to operate in.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":19,"time":"10:48","seconds":648,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] To your point about Slack being well set up for this, I mean, A, there's just a ton of information flowing out, right? So you can decide what to provide. B, Slack has been set up with access permissions. You have private channels. This is not a new primitive for Slack. And so I can totally see how as we start to add what I would think of as digital coworkers, I wrote a piece on this a couple of years ago, calling agents at the time, like, you know, your junior digital coworkers, and though sometimes a little more senior now, I mean, like it's, it just makes so much sense to have them there where other work is happening if you're a distributed company in any form. And mechanically, I think it's interesting to talk about specifically what Slack code is as well, because you and I are both jumping in and be like, oh yeah, well, I mean, like we interacted with coding agents in Slack before that. Not everyone has done that. Like I have a Hermes instance running on my personal Slack that I use for this podcast. Lots of people are not doing that. Some are. But what actually happens mechanically when a code channel comes into existence? What's happening","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-6-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":20,"time":"11:49","seconds":709,"speaker":"Jaime DeLanghe","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-6-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":21,"time":"11:49","seconds":709,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] there?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-6-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":22,"time":"11:50","seconds":710,"speaker":"Jaime DeLanghe","text":"yeah. So in order to have access to any of this, first of all, you need a coding agent to live in your Slack. So first, the first thing you need to do is go download one of our launch partners right now. So you could get, you know, the Anthropic agent, get Claude, get Devin, get the GitHub agent, get that inside of your Slack. And at its base, what's going to happen is that agent, when you at mention it, so you basically tag it into your conversation, it's going to have access to a number of APIs that humans don't have access to today. What it's going to be able to do at that point is to spin up a channel. There's a special channel, we're calling them code channels, that has some unique affordances that normal channels don't. For one, it's going to have like an entry point in the channel that you created in that's going to allow anybody who was in the previous conversation to now join that coding session. When those folks join the coding session, they're going to get authenticated into basically a development environment. Depending on how the agent set it up, they'll have suddenly access to a whole bunch of development tools, which is amazing. As somebody who is not a developer, getting access to developer tooling is probably the biggest hurdle for my personal development. I think it took me two months to get my cloud instance set up, like all everything right. So instantaneous access to being able to commit code. You'll also be able to see a number of things about what the agent is doing. So the agent can publish a published special context to the composer, for instance, and it can post code diffs in the channel as artifacts. You can see HTML being rendered that the agent is developing. You can check out the code. You can do anything that the agent could do inside of a development environment directly inside of Slack. And then we're pulling a lot, we're asking our partners, and the partners are actually the ones developing this, to pull a lot of the development context into the channel and push it to the Slack channel itself. The other thing that's great about all of this is because channels tend to clutter up one sidebar, we all know, and you might be thinking, oh my god, the last thing I need in this lifetime is another channel. The channel actually winds down when the task is completed. And I think that's a really cool thing that we've sort of discovered in the building of co-channels is that when you tie a channel explicitly to a project lifecycle, you can do a lot more active channel management and that can help with things like noise as well. So, I mean, really at its base, what's happening is that the agent is accessing a whole bunch of APIs and kind of building its own little development environment for you and all of your friends to be able to build with it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":23,"time":"14:53","seconds":893,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I find this fascinating because one of the things I learned as we were preparing for this episode is that Anthropic say they now do the majority of their coding in Slack and that this usage pattern is part of what led to this decision around code channels. Can you tell me a bit more about that?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":24,"time":"15:13","seconds":913,"speaker":"Jaime DeLanghe","text":"Yeah, so we work really closely with Anthropic. They're one of our best partners. And they push a lot of code through Slack because it's where the conversation is happening. I think if you talk with anybody at Anthropic about what it looks like to develop product at Anthropic, They are not generally writing really long product requirements docs. They're not generally even like filing bugs necessarily against a project. An issue is mentioned in a channel and they at mention Claude and then Claude goes and does the work. So they've really shortened the loop between problem discovery and product execution. And that's why a lot of the code is being pushed through Slack. It's not because Slack has the most wonderful interface. They invest a lot of time in their cloud interface. It's because that's where the conversation is happening, where somebody says, oh wouldn't it be nice if, or I would really like to blah, or I noticed this unfurl. This is an example for me today. My boss was like, I noticed this unfurl is really not looking really great on this message. So like the message attachment looked really bogus. And instead of now bugging me and MyDirect, which he did do first, he then was like, hey, spec, that's our internal coding agent, he was like, could you just fix this for me and propose some alternatives? So it's shortening the distance between I notice a problem and I can fix the problem. That's really the thing that separates these very, very AI-forward companies from the folks who are just using AI to maybe do the same thing that they were doing before a little faster. And I would say it's not just Anthropic. We heard the same thing from Devin. I've heard the same thing from the folks at GitHub. Anybody who's trying to really shorten that time from idea to execution in a nonlinear way is thinking about how can I get the tools as close to the conversation as possible, because the conversation is where the issue emerges, right? You can imagine other kinds of flows flowing off of other systems of record as well. But the thing that's challenging about that is you don't always have eyes on. So, like, if you have it just tickets are being filed in, you know, your JIRA, your ServiceNow, and you have agents just executing off of them, you have to have a lot of trust in that agent for it to just go do that automatically. And a lot of people aren't there yet. And a lot of those systems can also be really clunky and cumbersome to work with. So in a lot of instances, it's just easier to send a message and then tag in your old pal Claude to fix it, you know?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":25,"time":"18:03","seconds":1083,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] totally get that. I think I have a good example of this actually in my own work where I do automated transcription of my calls either with Gemini notes or through Granola and I have a cloud workflow or it works with Codex as well that just goes through and every time notes appear in my inbox it pulls them and says okay let's pick up all the action items here and let's either file them or get started on them depending on the category of them. But there is still a trust barrier there where it's like, yeah, I know I said a bunch of stuff that meeting, but how good was the transcription that was just taken? How accurate is this agent in understanding the context that I've already pre-provided? And I use like my own context harness for that is how I think about it where it's like, oh, here are all the things I'm working on. You know this. But there's, I still have an approval step for most of this baked in for myself because yeah, there is a little trust barrier. And that's just with me. That's not with me having a bunch of coworkers who I am, that's, that's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-9-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":26,"time":"19:02","seconds":1142,"speaker":"Jaime DeLanghe","text":"[OVERLAP] Totally.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-9-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":27,"time":"19:02","seconds":1142,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] just for my podcast. I don't have five coworkers who are trying to go back and forth on something. How do you handle when you've got multiple people trying to steer one agent in parallel in that code channel?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-9-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":28,"time":"19:13","seconds":1153,"speaker":"Jaime DeLanghe","text":"Well, I think this is where culture actually becomes really critical. And at","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":29,"time":"19:21","seconds":1161,"speaker":"Jaime DeLanghe","text":"[OVERLAP] Slack, we've always had a very collaborative product development culture where product managers, engineers, designers tend to work really closely together, very synchronously. One of our product principles is prototyping the path. We don't really believe in writing really large PRDs. and then shipping them down the line. And so a lot of a lot of the product development that we do internally is about touch and feel. It's about getting something like it just right. And what I've experienced internally when we're doing multiplayer coding sessions is that If there's a high level of trust amongst the team, and I know that my lead engineer is going to be able to steer the agent more correctly in terms of, you know, the product, the engineering quality, the code quality, the security, it's going to know why the test didn't pass, etc., etc. The designer might have some input on design. I'm going to have input on a lot of things. I also generally assume that the engineer will have some input on the product as will the designer. But if we all have a lot of respect for one another's expertise and we hold our ideas a little bit loosely and we know that like, you know, we might need to come up with a few options. We might need to iterate to get to something that feels good. A multiplayer session can be really great. I think the same thing is true for engineering-only coding sessions or multiplayer interactions where, you know, a really good engineering culture has a process around code review and has a process around even like pair programming. There's culture that's built into that. And if you don't get the culture right, you're not going to get really good code reviews. You're not going to get massive PRs that one person is just going to plop on your lap and tell you, figure it out. And I think we're all kind of figuring out what that culture needs to evolve to as we move to agents. Not just in terms of, like, how do you actually do a code review when you have a whole coding agent factory just, like, writing code for you all day long. But, you know, how do we inflect on trust? How do we inflect on taste? And I think doing that together will actually be much more productive, even if it feels a bit rough in the beginning and maybe, you know, you're steering the agent in different directions, it's better to be doing that in the same session because eventually you'll converge. Whereas if you don't do that in the same sessions, you're going to get very","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-10-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":30,"time":"21:57","seconds":1317,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Eh.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-10-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":31,"time":"21:57","seconds":1317,"speaker":"Jaime DeLanghe","text":"[OVERLAP] far in your opposite directions and then you're going to have to come back and reconcile. I think it's similar to, you know, I'm not an engineer, but I've worked in very engineering-heavy cultures, and it is my understanding that you should generally not keep your code in a branch for too long, and then try to merge it, because that would cause you a problem. But if you're in a multi-agent channel, or a multiplayer agent channel, you're not in a branch. The branch is public, the hole is high. There are cultural shifts that will have to happen to make that work depending on your team. But some teams are already kind of built for it. They're like, yeah, this is great. Let's do it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-10-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":32,"time":"22:39","seconds":1359,"speaker":"Jaime DeLanghe","text":"There's always the engineer who loves sitting next to the designer. And if they could give the designer just the tools to be able to push things a little themselves, they would love that and vice versa. And so I think as our rules are kind of collapsing and we're all figuring out What does it look like to go from that idea to code now? Doing it as a team is going to be a lot more productive than trying to do it each individually on our own.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":33,"time":"23:04","seconds":1384,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Culture matters a lot. I'm certain there are plenty of companies that are struggling with this transition because they already had challenges in their engineering culture and those blockers are being exacerbated by the massive amount of code that is now able to be shipped. we have shifted left where the problems are. And if you didn't already spend time trying to solve that part of your engineering and product culture, it can totally be something that's a challenge for you to implement. And I think it speaks to the need to not only solve your technical systems, but your social technical systems and those that have to work in concert together. And honestly, it also speaks to me about the entire strategy behind what I'm seeing from Slack, where you added CloudTag, you have an MCP, you've got Slackbot, obviously. Code channels are the newest example of an argument that Slack has been making for a while, that agents should go where the work already is. But that's certainly playing out beyond coding. What's driving usage across Slackbot?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":34,"time":"24:07","seconds":1447,"speaker":"Jaime DeLanghe","text":"Well, I think the thing that's interesting about Slackbot in particular is that the first thing that people generally reach for with Slackbot is just solving problems that they have inside of Slack. I can't find this. Can you help me summarize this? Catch me up on what's going on. I think the next level of adoption that happens with Slackbot, and this is really what we're seeing internally and at some of our customers who have become a lot more mature with it, is that they're starting to use Slackbot for more work. For instance, internally, we've had it a bit longer, but recently Slackbot launched Surfaces, they're called. Interactive Artifact, it's basically like a tiny little HTML site that Slackbot can build for you based on any number of inputs, including any connected MC keys. And you can build dashboards with it, you could build slide decks, you could build a map, you could build an interactive report, you could build a game if you really felt like that was the thing you wanted inside of your Slack. But you can do a lot of really fun stuff with it. And we've just seen the usage go crazy. And I think one of the barriers I think that we're all trying to figure out is how do you have these agents that are inside of your Slack introduce themselves? How does a person get to know an agent? And you get to know a coworker by working alongside them, right? You get to understand what things they're good at and what things you might not talk to them for based on interactions that you have with them repeatedly over time. The problem is if you're only, say like I have somebody on my team, I always go to them every week for an analytics report. I never ask them anything else about themselves. I never ask them, you know, what they're doing. I don't take the time to get to know them. I might not know that actually Analects is only like a quarter of their job. And it turns out that they're really, you know, great at design or they have a passion for, I don't know, music. And I could actually be getting music recommendations from them. And I think what I have found both in my personal use of agents at times and what I think we see in the numbers is it's really easy for humans to think about them as just being a tool and they ascribe a certain quality to that tool. They use the tool for one job. We tend to think of most tools as being good at one thing, even though they could do a lot of different things. And I think that's a risk with agents. And actually, one of the reasons I think it's really critical to get them in channels and have more shareable social artifacts, even for one-on-one interactions. So going back again to Slackbot as an example, Even early on, we just say search, summarization, basic Slack tasks. Then you introduce skills, and skills become shareable inside of Slack. And you can see the usage and the sophistication just grow exponentially as people build skills for themselves and then share those skills with other people inside of Slack because Slack is social. The next thing is MCPs. So you have one person connecting an MCP. And then because Slack is team-based and not solo player, Slackbot now has access to all of those MCPs and you can see, oh, somebody on the data team actually thought that this HES, this analytics MCP would be really useful for me. And I can just get it set up in one click. So I think having these agents operate inside of a social environment where you can get to know them, you can see how other people interact with them. You can see, you know, even artifacts of how other people interact with them. You can see things that they've done for other people. Helps you better understand how you might use it yourself. And I think there are lots of ways you can try to solve for this. I know a lot of companies are creating their own repos for skills. They're creating learning Fridays where everybody shares clips of what they're doing. But the nice thing about doing this in an environment like Slack is that the exhaust of everybody just doing that work just becomes visible to you. You just see it in channels. Like, it just, you happen across it and there's a sort of internal viral adoption that can happen in a social environment like Slack that's really like figuring out that you have a really killer teammate who can do a ton of different stuff and a lot less like reading the manual for, you know, your new Windows machine. Um, which I think sometimes even that working with LLNs can feel a bit like that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":35,"time":"29:05","seconds":1745,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Agents in Slack are the equivalent of water cooler conversations with your teammates for the agentic era is what I'm hearing from you because I definitely","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-13-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":36,"time":"29:13","seconds":1753,"speaker":"Jaime DeLanghe","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-13-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":37,"time":"29:15","seconds":1755,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"think there's an argument for the value of in-person work at times where there is uh, osmosis that occurs. You, you see teammates, you run into them in the hallways and you, you learn things from them. And Slack is that central corridor for teams that are worldwide or that are geo distributed. Um, and as we work more and more with agents, I think there is an increasing benefit to having a centralized means of communicating with them, or at least the majority of your communication with them so that, uh, that can be consumed by others and they can learn from you by osmosis or by intentionality.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":38,"time":"29:50","seconds":1790,"speaker":"Jaime DeLanghe","text":"Yeah, absolutely. I think it's the thing that I keep telling my team is that, you know, as we're thinking about what the future of working with agents looks like, We have a unique opportunity at Slack to make that future very human. And I think there's a world where each of us goes off into our own little corners. We work with our agent in our solo terminal and each of us gets locked in with our agent or agents or our army of clods. And we reinforce our previous bias we become more and more like ingrained in maybe a single track way of thinking or go deep, deep down a rabbit hole. And that could allow us to be very productive, but it might not allow us to be creative in the way that, you know, we could be if we were bumping into unknown variables like other human beings or other human beings agents who might be doing different things than what you would have expected. And I think there's something very, you know, uniquely valuable about these messy social spaces and being able to bring agents into them, I think will allow us to maintain a lot of our humanity as we figure out how to become much more productive and we figure out what access to these really powerful tools will allow us to do in the future. I think having agents in social spaces will allow us to just dream a lot bigger.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":39,"time":"31:32","seconds":1892,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"This is a really interesting point. And I don't think you're wrong that there's a lot of value in this effect because otherwise I think we see a lot of folks who feel like they're constantly chasing information where it's like, Oh,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":40,"time":"31:47","seconds":1907,"speaker":"Jaime DeLanghe","text":"[OVERLAP] Mmhmm.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-16-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":41,"time":"31:47","seconds":1907,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] what's happening on Twitter? What's happening on LinkedIn? You know, I need to read the sub stack, watch this podcast. You should watch this podcast for the record. Uh, and figure out like, what's the new thing that someone's doing? What can I learn from them? And there is a ton of value in that, but it takes a lot of work beyond just doing the work. And so if you can create situations where while you're doing the work, you learn from others and from their approaches, there's definite benefits to that. But I can imagine for certain teams, this comes back to culture again, to your","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-16-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":42,"time":"32:22","seconds":1942,"speaker":"Jaime DeLanghe","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-16-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":43,"time":"32:22","seconds":1942,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] point earlier, of how do we set up our business and our lives for a future where we're not just collaborating with humans, but we're collaborating with agents and where many of us are already there today. Do you have thoughts about how other leaders need to be thinking about that cultural org chart piece? As I know you were on Dev Interrupted, my old show, a","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-16-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":44,"time":"32:45","seconds":1965,"speaker":"Jaime DeLanghe","text":"Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":45,"time":"32:45","seconds":1965,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"huge fan of their work. You talked about companies putting hundreds of custom agents onto their org charts. How do we have to change what we do to adapt to this reality?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":46,"time":"32:56","seconds":1976,"speaker":"Jaime DeLanghe","text":"Yeah. Also, as soon as I mentioned the Slack code launch, somebody immediately was like, but who owns the code? Like, if a product manager ships it, who owns the code? I think I don't think that there is a clear one correct answer for what it's going to look like for every company. You know in just the same way that there isn't a clear one single answer to how you should organize your company. I think it's it's that sort of serious of a question. It has as much gravity as what is my org structure going to be. I remember when I was first entering the tech universe.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":47,"time":"33:41","seconds":2021,"speaker":"Jaime DeLanghe","text":"It was a time of radical transformation. Lots of companies were growing extremely quickly. And people were experimenting with a lot of new organizational models, right? There was like the no hierarchy model where everybody could just do whatever they wanted and we would figure it out in the end. There were like a lot of like almost the opposite, like GM, like fully integrated business models. You have the matrix model, which is sort of like what Slack still operates as today. And I think we're going to see a lot of similar organizational experimentation with agents. I think the one piece of advice I would give to companies who are trying to figure out what do I want my culture to look like with agents inside of it is to write down the things that you really love about your company culture. What is your culture? What do you want your culture to continue to be? Again, when you're a high-growth company, you think about this kind of thing a lot. You know, what are the things that we want to keep as we grow? Because culture isn't, you know, something written down in documents. It's actually how you operate. And you have to look at how you're operating and how it fits against that culture. Transversely, you also want to say like, hey, what are the things we don't want? Like, what is like super not working for us? And what are things that we think an agent could solve? And then figure out how to solve that with agents. Don't just assume that the agent is going to solve that. So for instance, if you have a very cumbersome development process that involves, you know, lots and lots of checks across many, many different teams, Don't just assume that having faster coding agents is going to solve that problem. Because now those coding agents, whatever code they write, however much code they write, is still going to have to go through 20 checks from 20 different teams, unless those teams are also starting to think differently about the value that they create inside of your organization and the services that they provide. And so I think it's almost like at a whole company level you have to figure that out. At an individual team level you have to figure that out. The other thing I'll mention just because we were talking about shifting left earlier is I think Everyone I'm talking to who's doing this successfully is also thinking from an outcomes-based perspective. So as an individual, my job as the product leader of Slack is to build a great product organization that delivers incredible products to market. That's my job. My job is not to hold quarterly all hands. My job is not necessarily to build a gigantic team. My job is not to have everybody write the best PRDs ever. My job is to, at the end of the day, make people's working lives simpler, more pleasant, and more productive, and to build an organization that can achieve that. And if I'm not doing that, I'm not doing my job. And so I shouldn't, I should think about agentic outcomes that service that goal instead of just thinking, how do I help people write PRDs faster? Right? Like that might not actually be the pain point. Maybe we just don't even need PRDs. Maybe we just chuck the PRDs entirely. And so I think Where I'm seeing people kind of get stuck is when they're thinking about automating a process. And I think that's really enticing because it's so easy and it's just right there. But then you end up automating lots and lots of processes and you just end up with the same kind of bottlenecks we were talking about before. Because again, probably on every one of those processes, you want to have a human in the loop. And now you've just created like a massive chain of make work that now the agents are doing instead of the people.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":48,"time":"37:28","seconds":2248,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"One of the ways we can solve this over time is through recursive self-improvement or learning loops if you want a more simplified version. What is Slack doing to enable learning loops based off of past Slack code or other agentic interactions in Slack? Obviously this comes down to some extent to how teams want to set up their contact sharing, their memory, etc. But what are you doing to set up for that feature?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":49,"time":"37:54","seconds":2274,"speaker":"Jaime DeLanghe","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, so I think my answer for right now is that having all of the context available inside of Slack gives you really great up-to-date access to, I don't know, almost like case law, like everything that's happened before that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-21-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":50,"time":"38:14","seconds":2294,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Mm.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-21-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":51,"time":"38:14","seconds":2294,"speaker":"Jaime DeLanghe","text":"[OVERLAP] looks similar to this. So one thing agents are really good at doing inside of Slack with Slack data married to coding data or married to Jira data, ServiceNow data, is to be like, oh, this incident looks like this other incident that happened before. And it's not just because the code looks similar. It's because the way people are talking about it looks similar. You know, there's human patterns that you can attach as well. And so I think that that sort of fact that you're building an archive as you're interacting inside of Slack gives you a self-improving loop. We're not doing actively yet, but some agents are doing for themselves. So like, for instance, Claude Tad does this. we'll build memory on like a per channel basis. So it's writing rules to make itself better at being tagged in that channel. And I think that's something that over time we can think about how do we help just build that as a primitive into our platform so that you could have multiple agents sharing the same memory. Agents could of course, you know, have their unique memory as well, but are there things that we want to just write sort of to like history so that people can access that more efficiently instead of having to access a big chunk of the Slack corpus and then make sense of that? That's definitely not something we have yet, but it's something we've actively been talking with the team about.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-21-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":52,"time":"39:38","seconds":2378,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I love that you brought up case law here. I actually just sat down with the CTO of Thompson Reuters to talk about their new model, Thompson they launched, that's focused for legal AI. And one of the big things they did, because it's so important in their field, is they have a really crucial, like, patent pending, it sounds like, citation ledger that the model always has to use. Are you exploring citations of other Slack conversations? Is that something that's already being implemented within some of the agent capabilities in Slack?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":53,"time":"40:08","seconds":2408,"speaker":"Jaime DeLanghe","text":"Yeah, so a lot of our most used sort of APIs and the APIs we're most focused on making agentic at scale right now are related to search. So what most agents that are operating in Slack will do is do a quick like, how do I use Slack context to ground myself to make sure that I understand what I'm doing and I behave correctly? And I think, you know, people, it could be obvious to think about, of course people want their agents inside of Slack because that's where people are interacting. And that's great. But actually, the context is the real nugget. It's the thing that makes your, you know, your instance of Claude in your Slack really good for your company as opposed to, you know, your off-the-shelf Claude. And I think that's one of the really big appeals of something like Claw Tag. Obviously, you will get more interaction with it as well because it will be in the place where people are. Then there will be more exhaustion. You get this really amazing virtuous cycle where people can sort of like leverage the Slack corpus to cite it. Slackbot itself, our agent that you get on board with Slack, is very, very heavy on citation. So it almost always sites something from Slack at a minimum. It very rarely just tells you something. Like, I think I've seen it happen like once or twice. But we've really, you know, thought carefully about the system prompt and tried to ground it in the context of Slack as much as possible. And as you connect more MCPs, it just gets more and more grounded in more and more context. But the nice thing about Slack, for better or worse, is it's a place where everything kind of ends up. The files that you're sharing, the HR benefits that need to happen, it ends up sort of being this accidental knowledge management system. And it's not always the best at knowing what's correct, but it's really good at knowing what's most recent. And it's pretty good at knowing what's most engaged with. And if you put those things together, you mostly get what's most accurate to the moment. Especially, I think, in today's world, there's a huge recency benefit. If you can get the most recent thing, it's much more likely to be correct than an outdated knowledge management. system. And so my hope is that over time, you know, as companies are normalizing a lot more into Slack, it's not that we would completely overtake the knowledge management burden. You could choose to live on the edge and have no knowledge management whatsoever inside of your company. And that's fine. Early days of Slack, we definitely had nothing other than Slack. That was it. You had to go to Slack to find what you're looking for. But Slack can definitely be the sort of like the augmentation to whatever knowledge management you're trying to do and can help actually you get a lot more benefit out of that as opposed to, you know, a lot of the companies I hear who are trying to build their own sort of Slack bot, their own out-of-the-box general purpose, everybody in my company has access to all of the information that's important. They end up basically becoming librarians and having to hire, sometimes even hire teams of librarians to build the knowledge store that those agents are operating off of. And my experience has been, at least, that you can get a lot of that for free by just pulling it into the conversation that people are having. Because the conversation is often far more accurate than the moment that someone has stopped to write it down in a brief, you know?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":54,"time":"44:01","seconds":2641,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. One of the big benefits obviously of agents in Slack is the tribal knowledge piece where","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":55,"time":"44:06","seconds":2646,"speaker":"Jaime DeLanghe","text":"[OVERLAP] Absolutely.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-24-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":56,"time":"44:06","seconds":2646,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] there's just bits of information that are there that unless you were in calls, you may not otherwise get, uh, if you haven't been around the org. And I, I find it really interesting and I think smart that you are using both interactions on a channel. Like something was said here, here's what the interaction looked like. and recency to prioritize. And that probably does get you most of the way there, given how fast things are changing. If something is a recent response, it's probably more up to date. But I can imagine that there is just a challenge with context bloat, because so much happens in Slack. And then if I start pulling in my Salesforce or other CRM, and now suddenly I'm getting all these recordings of sales calls or whatever else, which is very common, There's just a ton of information. How do you prioritize in those situations depending on what you're trying to do?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-24-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":57,"time":"44:58","seconds":2698,"speaker":"Jaime DeLanghe","text":"Yeah. So we have, I would say we have two answers for this. One for Slackbot internally, and I have a less good answer for you for external agents, but I promise to try to make that better as soon as we can. So on Slackbot, we've spent a lot of time optimizing the Slackbot search. And it's like, it's a multi-path search. It is, it's doing a lot of work to try to get through the context to get the right context before it goes to the LLM. So we do a lot of work in the application layer to sort of like hunt around in the search tool to find the good stuff to bring it to you. We don't yet have that available to third-party agents. They're hitting our search API, which is good, but it's not that sort of like a Gemtech multi-pass. search. And so one of the things we're working on in the second half of the year is bringing more of that process, like doing a lot more data handling for agents that are working inside of Slack so that you don't have to do all of that as a developer. I don't think you would ever take away the raw sort of data hose where if you want to do all of your own context window management, go for it. But if you want to just get an agent set up really quickly inside of Slack and have it be able to operate off of the Slack context, instantaneously without a lot of like extra work to manage rate limits and manage just like data context window management on your side, we could do that a lot more efficiently for you. And that's something we've heard from customers who are really invested in making these sort of, making their own sort of Slack bots, making their own like Uber agents run inside of Slack. They want us to do a little bit more of that data processing for them so that they can do more of the marrying the data with other external sources as well. Because the Slack data is so robust, I guess for lack of a better word, it can sometimes be a bit challenging to manage.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":58,"time":"47:08","seconds":2828,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, I have definitely had that experience when I'm trying to find something in Slack where overall the search is great, but there's just a lot in there.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":59,"time":"47:16","seconds":2836,"speaker":"Jaime DeLanghe","text":"Right. Or if you're like, I will sometimes be like, I want you to, as a CPO, I'm like, I want you to catch me up on what's going on in this project. And so it's not a specific channel. It's got a fan out. It's got a look over all the channels I'm a member of, find anything related to the project. is probably doing some, like, it's traversing some, like, you know, adjacency. So it finds a keyword, and then it'll spin off five searches that have related keywords that sort of, like, give it a cluster of interest, and then it'll pare down what's in that, and then it'll use that to build the summary. And I think that kind of multi-pass search is a thing that, that's the kind of thing that we would like to try to make more available to folks building on the platform as well.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":60,"time":"47:58","seconds":2878,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I'm curious if you personally are using mostly prompted agents or are you, do you have like a variety of projects where you have an agent that checks in every week with you and says, Hey, here's what's happening.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":61,"time":"48:11","seconds":2891,"speaker":"Jaime DeLanghe","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-28-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":62,"time":"48:12","seconds":2892,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Cause I, I can, I'm not sure how it would work for your role, honestly.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-28-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":63,"time":"48:16","seconds":2896,"speaker":"Jaime DeLanghe","text":"I have both. So I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":64,"time":"48:20","seconds":2900,"speaker":"Jaime DeLanghe","text":"[OVERLAP] will say I am a heavily devoted user of Slackbot because I promise the team that I will push it to its limits as much as I can. And so I have a lot of recurring tasks that Slackbot does for me. Everything is basic as like tell me whose birthday is coming up this week because like I'm gonna forget I will ask it to tell me that it can it can do that based on Other agents and also I think we're working on getting it more access to like profile information and workday data potentially So right now it reads it from other other messages that I'm choosing not to read because I decided it's all noise the next is I have it do a web search and Oh, it's not, I didn't tell it to do a web search. It decided to do a web search. I told it that I wanted to know what's going on in the industry with AI competitors on a weekly basis. And I wanted to know the most recent news. So Slackbot knows me, it knows my role, it knows the things that I'm working on and what I care about. It will then look across who it's decided are competitors. I can flex on that, but it did a pretty good job. And then it will tell me the news that's relevant to me given my job as CPO of Slack. It tells me what's shipping every week. It gives me red light, green light, yellow light status on a number of things. And then I also have a chief of staff and an assistant that use it really aggressively to build content for me. So that's been fun. I have a do a daily briefing for me as well. And I started sharing that with my assistant and my chief of staff because I have access to a ton of stuff that they don't have access to. And that's really been illuminating because they're like, oh, now I see why that person is hollering at me to have that meeting. It's because this really important conversation happened. Because I'm not doing a very efficient job necessarily of passing all the information through. And Sotbot","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-29-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":65,"time":"50:18","seconds":3018,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Sharing","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-29-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":66,"time":"50:18","seconds":3018,"speaker":"Jaime DeLanghe","text":"[OVERLAP] does","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-29-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":67,"time":"50:18","seconds":3018,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"context.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":68,"time":"50:19","seconds":3019,"speaker":"Jaime DeLanghe","text":"a much","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":69,"time":"50:19","seconds":3019,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-31-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":70,"time":"50:19","seconds":3019,"speaker":"Jaime DeLanghe","text":"[OVERLAP] better job than I am. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-31-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":71,"time":"50:22","seconds":3022,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Awesome. Jaime, I've really enjoyed this conversation. It's been fantastic talking to you about how Slack is building this next era, and I can't wait to see what else you have in store for us at Dreamforce and beyond. Is there anything we didn't touch on that you want to highlight here as we start to wrap up?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":72,"time":"50:40","seconds":3040,"speaker":"Jaime DeLanghe","text":"I mean, I think like the biggest thing that I kind of want to like just sort of like double down on as we think about Slack code is I really think that this is just like similar to how, you know, the coding agents got a lot of traction and you see a lot of those coding agents turn into general purpose knowledge work agents as They got just generally better at things. I think Slack code and co-channels is just a V0, a V1 of what multiplayer AI could look like. For engineers, as a PR, you know, for you, it might be a podcast. You might want to have one per episode, you know, potentially, where you're working with your agents on an episode. It might be, for me, a deck I have to deliver to Mark Benioff. anybody on any team is going to have collaborative work that they need to do. And having a place for that work and the agents to come together around the life cycle of that project I think is going to be hugely beneficial.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":73,"time":"51:47","seconds":3107,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, like I said at the start of the episode, I think there is a massive opportunity for Slack to be the context harness for enterprises and the central plane where most agents are operating and interacting with their human team members. So it's going to be fascinating to see how you put it together. Jaime couldn't be more excited to have had you on the show. Is there any way for folks should go to follow you or follow your work?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":74,"time":"52:09","seconds":3129,"speaker":"Jaime DeLanghe","text":"Oh, you can follow me on LinkedIn. I try to post on there pretty regularly. And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":75,"time":"52:15","seconds":3135,"speaker":"Jaime DeLanghe","text":"I post musings on Medium if you're into that as well. But Slack.com has the latest on everything that's going on with Slack. The team is doing far more interesting things than I am, I promise.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe","episode":71,"guid":"a7aa6ccd-4209-4174-b62e-99937cfa41f7","episodeTitle":"Slack Wants to Be the Context Harness for Code | CPO Jaime DeLanghe","publishedAt":"2026-09-02","segmentIndex":76,"time":"52:27","seconds":3147,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Well, I can't wait to explore it and you're encouraging me to try to do even more with my agents in Slack. So Jaime, thanks again for joining us and thank you everyone for listening. We hope you enjoyed the conversation.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/71-slack-wants-to-be-the-context-harness-for-code-cpo-jaime-delanghe/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"meeting rooms where people get together and typically in the cases where there's also somebody remote and how can we make that the best possible experience. 11 or more cameras in some cases, we have dozens of microphones. Who's present? What are they trying to do? Who's looking at who? Who's talking? The meeting room transforms into sort of proactive participant in a meeting that it bends into the background. You make the meeting and we make it work.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:27","seconds":27,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"My guest today is bringing AI into the meeting room. So let's talk about what that means. Welcome back to Chain of Thought, everyone. I am your host, Conor Bronsdon. If you're getting something out of these conversations, or if it's your first time here, take a second to like this episode, subscribe, comment, and if you're on YouTube, turn on notifications so that you actually get the next one when it lands. That guest that we are chatting with today is Tormod Ree. Tormod is the chief product and engineering officer at Neat, the Zoom-backed video hardware company. Before Neat, he co-founded AVA, a computer vision security company that Motorola acquired back in, I believe, 2023, and spent close to eight years at Cisco, where he ran the Spark board. And I am certain we're going to be talking quite a bit about computer vision and what it means for computer vision models in the years to come. So, really what we're getting to here is that Torment has built both halves of this. The meeting room hardware side and the computer vision that reads physical space. But how does that all come together? Torment is here to tell us. Torment, great to see you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":2,"time":"1:29","seconds":89,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"Thank you. Thanks for having me. It's great to be on.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:31","seconds":91,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, I'm really excited to have you on Chain of Thought. We don't have enough conversations, I think, about how AI is impacting physical spaces. And one of the key areas of that's happening is that as we are in this geo-distributed world with teams all over the world, with customers, partners, The meeting room experience has really changed the last few years and I know Neat has been at the forefront of that. What does it mean to turn a meeting room into actually a system that understands the kind of meeting happening and actually directs the experience rather than just framing whoever is talking?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":4,"time":"2:07","seconds":127,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"That's a good question. I've been in this industry for quite a while, since like around 2010, 2011. We tried a lot of things to get people using the technology, including Icelandic volcanoes and arguments about travel and cost reduction. But I think the pandemic and the boost we saw in usage after that has really changed things. Definitely. However, to some extent, the technology that people are using now for the distributor or the kind of hybrid workforce or call it whatever you want, is typically built pre-pandemic and pre-ubiquitous use that we see from it now. So to date, I don't think you've properly used AI or like, like one thing it's sort of to some extent built with sort of in the past. And to another extent, there's so much happening in the AI space now that hasn't really made it into the meeting room. So that's really our job. It's to take the meeting rooms where people get together. And typically in the cases where there's also somebody remote and how can we make that the best possible experience. And in order to do that, we actually need to understand what that room is like and what the people in the room are like trying to do, because ultimately we want sort of the technology to just kind of move into the background and for people to focus on the conversation and the meeting and just have something that just kind of works and makes the sort of interactions simple and natural.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":5,"time":"3:31","seconds":211,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So what does it take to actually understand what's happening in the meeting and then drive these outcomes?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":6,"time":"3:39","seconds":219,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"Yeah, quite a lot. But ideally you don't notice. So like the, the objective is for it to be very simple or transparent, but there's quite a lot of like complex or sophisticated technology behind it. So for us, it means having a pretty kind of broad set of sensors in the room. I like the most important sensors, like cameras or microphones. And then we do have some others for things like air quality and other things, but it's typically microphones and cameras. We have them like 11 or more cameras in some cases, we have dozens of microphones. And then we, we use them to build sort of a spatial model of the space. But we also use them to, to sort of understand what's going on or what we like to call read the room, but it's basically figuring out like who's present, what are they trying to do, who's looking at who, who's talking, is somebody standing up, is somebody presenting, what's the interaction like, looking at sort of both verbal cues, nonverbal cues. And there's been a lot of progress over the last few years in sort of the detectors, like you can detect people quite easily. You can understand who's talking. But sort of the next level signals, like nonverbal cues, for instance, or combining these signals from multiple cameras and sensors and making that work like a system, not just from one powerful device at the front of the room, but across a set of devices in the room. That's the next hard problem. And the one that we are focused on solving and making improvements in.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":7,"time":"5:13","seconds":313,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So quite a few of these models that are helping to read the room are running on edge, is that correct?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":8,"time":"5:22","seconds":322,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"Yes. So we do a combination of edge and cloud. We sort of do it where it makes sense, but typically sort of arguments for doing it at the edge in probably an order of importance is kind of time sensitivity, privacy and cost. And cost tends not to be the kind of main factor, but like anything we do in the media path, Anything that has to do with processing audio and video, which is a lot of what you have to do when you're kind of trying to foster a meeting because it's about like seeing and hearing people, needs to happen at the edge. So that all happens at the edge for good and bad. And things that are less time critical, things that have to do with like management or maybe things that you can sort of do post-meeting like post-meeting summaries, transcripts, those things can happen at the edge. But what needs to be done to produce a great meeting needs to happen at the edge.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":9,"time":"6:17","seconds":377,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So are you largely using like a combination of open models that you fine-tuned for specific tasks or are you building models in-house? What's the approach that needs taking?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":10,"time":"6:27","seconds":387,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"Yeah, it's a mix basically. So we sort of, some is open source, some we build in house. We don't reinvent the wheel. I think the real differentiation isn't so much in the model for us. It's sort of in the harness around it, which means like, how do you combine signals from different detectors or different models? How do you make the right decisions? How do you make sure that that works in a real environment? So there's a lot of variability in sort of room acoustics, sizes, how people behave and interact. And in sort of that case, we work across the stack. We work from data collection, labeling, training on device inference, obviously, and then the harness. harness around it. So, yeah. And then I think also like model capabilities potentially commoditize over time. So it's like the harness and the specialized data is, is where we have, have the magic sauce, so to speak.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":11,"time":"7:26","seconds":446,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I would love to understand more about your approach in the data piece before we talk, I think, more explicitly about the harness. Can you tell me a bit about how you have architected your system so that you have this data advantage? I mean, obviously, you talked about the sensor piece of, look, we have 11, sometimes more sensors in a room at times. So that's an advantage. But how does that all come together in a way that you can effectively feed information across these models?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":12,"time":"7:51","seconds":471,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"Yeah, good question. I can do some of the high level stuff, but I can't get too specific because this is a race where you try to keep some things a bit of a secret too, obviously. Data isn't like, data is not an easy, I guess it tends not to be an easy problem, but like our devices are in meeting rooms where people have important and private conversations. So we can't just collect data from all our meetings and our customers typically wouldn't be okay with opting in the data collection either. It's a B2B company, so we sell to smaller and larger enterprises. And it's very, very important that we respect the privacy of what goes on there and what happens in the meeting room. So what happens locally stays locally and is processed locally, which means getting good data is a bit more of a challenge. But It's a combination of internally sort of source data, publicly available datasets that are more relevant, not that much synthetic data, kind of have looked at that a bit and yeah, sort of a dataset we built over time to make that effective.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":13,"time":"9:01","seconds":541,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I love that you brought up the privacy element because I think that is obviously crucial for so many businesses and maybe gets ignored at the demo stage, let's call it, of folks trying this stuff out. How do you set the guardrails that you need between all this data collection and then the training you're doing with it before it gets into how the direction of the room and the harness beside works, the coordination?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-12-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":14,"time":"9:27","seconds":567,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, we basically don't collect any data from our customers that have to do with sort of no audio, no video. So that needs to come from somewhere else. So that's a very hard line that we draw. We also process things in like, so we don't use their data to train our models. We need to get it from elsewhere. We also tend not to deal that much with identity, which is like another, like we don't. We don't need to know who it is, right? So we don't need to, for some things in the future that could be useful, but typically we don't need to know that it's Conor or that it's Tormod. We just need to know that sort of that person is the same as that person. And we sort of look at interactions and how they work together in the room. But identity at least has been less important for the experiences that we produce. We try to just, I guess, infer like importance or relevance from from all the other things than identity.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-12-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":15,"time":"10:30","seconds":630,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"This is interesting because it, I think, speaks to the importance of the edge model approach that you're taking too, where you're able to localize a lot of this decision making, you're able to keep that data localized, instead of saying, oh, we're pushing this all to a cloud, which then creates all these governance issues, these privacy issues. Um, I love that you have this structure here, but it does sound like you're using the cloud for some things. Is that kind of the director, a harness piece that is using cloud models? And then basically there's a line between how that works or how, how, how does the actual coordination piece work? Because I know you have all these different pieces of the room that are working in concert together to deliver this great product.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":16,"time":"11:09","seconds":669,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"Yeah, good question. I think then it's probably important to mention that so the devices that we create, they look a bit like these bars or these boards that you put into the meeting room and you use them to have Google Meet, Microsoft Teams or Zoom meetings. And we also support some third party applications. what we do there is that has to do with the sort of meeting that sort of media audio video is done at the edge which means that the kind of orchestration also happens at the edge when we have multiple devices in the room we might have and they all we sort of distribute the compute so in the room there could be multiple devices there's like a main device that's at the front typically has microphones cameras speakers like it powers the screen things like that then there could be like what we call a neat center at the table microphones and cameras and you sort of have these devices across the room then they all do their own edge processing on audio or video or both And then they send a combination of like metadata and media to sort of the main device. So it needs to sort of be this kind of captain main device in the room that does the level of orchestration. But that job is easier and lighter if the other devices in the room sort of do their part and send metadata along. along with the media basically. So then it can make decisions from looking at the metadata and it does not have to do the inference on the media streams that are coming to it and it can do sort of more like selections or mixing or you can kind of pick this video stream from there and that one from there and kind of combine them together or it can kind of mix the audio appropriately. But both then sort of the inference and sort of the harness and the orchestration in our case happens at the edge. However, these devices are used to have meetings on, as I said, Google Meet, Teams and Zoom. That's obviously a cloud meeting service. So when you look at the end-to-end solution, then on their part, there is definitely an element of","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":17,"time":"13:14","seconds":794,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"cloud processing. So that's the meeting part of it. And then you asked about like, what do we then do in the cloud? It's lighter than what we do at the edge. So it's typically when it comes to AI, it's sort of, I guess we're a bit more of a, we have a cloud management suite as well. In that case, we're a bit more of like a management platform. So in that case, we could use AI to make the management platform more effective, but it's also, I think, increasingly sort of a platform for integrations with like events, webhooks, APIs, and an MCP server for agentic type management. And in that case also, we're not really doing, we're not sort of the agent, but we're the, we're sort of the platform that you that we interact with. And then there are some examples where we, in one of the modes that our devices run in, where we do AI type summaries for the audio. And yeah, currently for the audio, I'll leave it at that. And that happens in the cloud because it's slightly less time sensitive. We process the audio either during or as the meeting closes. That's a long answer, but that's what we touch and what we do where.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":18,"time":"14:27","seconds":867,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I love the detail and I think it's really interesting to look at this from the standpoint of, like, you are coordinating a variety of edge models across hardware with this captain. And I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":19,"time":"14:37","seconds":877,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"[OVERLAP] Yes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-16-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":20,"time":"14:37","seconds":877,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] think increasingly we see this model in every style of AI, whether it is, you know, someone coordinating a team of agents to do coding, whether it's, you know, a meeting room in this case, of having this orchestration model, this leader that is running a group of sub-agents. And I think that parallel is one that we're going to see across the board. It's not always going to be the fable of the group that is doing every piece of task. It's going to assign sub-agents to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-16-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":21,"time":"15:03","seconds":903,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"[OVERLAP] Yep.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-16-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":22,"time":"15:03","seconds":903,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] go out and do stuff. And it's interesting to hear that that's happening on the hardware front as well. And I'd love to understand some of what this actually brings back to an organization. obviously the meeting summary piece you talked about there sounds like there's some great options there um but what what does the agentic platform that you mentioned and the work you're doing to provide an mcp etc so that people can leverage their agents to interact with the meeting documentation um or media organization like what what does that look like when it's successful for an organization what do they actually get out of that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-16-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":23,"time":"15:38","seconds":938,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, two kind of pretty distinct type of users than in our case, right? One type is the people that have the meeting, they're going to the meeting room or whatever space that device is in. And for them, it's supposed to kind of just work and be incredibly simple. People are fed up with all the complexity around having meetings. And there has been a lot of progress, but like the majority of the progress has been typically in like the small to medium sized rooms. You can put in a bar, it works, you have a good experience. But it can still get complex in some cases. It tends to get complex if you have like larger or more complex spaces, like think like large meeting rooms, auditoriums, training rooms, those kind of spaces.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-16-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":24,"time":"16:19","seconds":979,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Mm.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-16-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":25,"time":"16:19","seconds":979,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"where you still quite often have to fiddle with like camera presets or somebody has programmed microphones to trigger the pan tilt zoom cameras and then you lean back and you're outside the camera view and it's sort of it's like it's like ah that doesn't feel right you can do this better if you just if you actually understand what's going on there so Yeah, and then there's like the interactions that people have with the systems in the rooms. Like, should you really expect people who they are to have a discussion to have to deal with like camera views? Like should they have to click a button and have like a dropdown of five different selections for the kind of framing that they want? They shouldn't have to do that. Like they should just, it should just adapt and understand the conversation and the meeting and then just Let the people in the room just go on with having the meeting and discussion, focus on discussion. Let the remote participants feel properly included in the conversation. So that's one problem. It's the users. It's become a lot simpler, but there's a ton more you can do. and AI is critical. As you said, it is about orchestrating AI across all these devices, which makes it an interesting technology problem. It has its benefits, it scales more flexibly and et cetera, but that's one problem. And then the other problem you alluded to is that's the IT, that's the admin problem. I now have sometimes a few, sometimes tens, hundreds, sometimes thousands or tens of thousands of devices, How do I manage all these? I have various different like management tools that I can go into. This single pane of glass thing that I've been wanting for the last 20 years never materialized and I keep having issues. How do I stay on top of things? On that IT admin side, I think the words like agentic management will be very important where people will stop going into kind of logging into UIs and clicking around and kind of looking for red lights to fix things. And they will have agents acting on their behalf in towards our platform and in towards other platforms too, like for the meeting platform provider, swim teams, Google, network, building management, who knows what. that enables them just to do what they're doing quicker. So they can just kind of have like an interface where they can describe or say what they want to do. They don't need to know the commands. They just like, they describe intent basically, and then the agent acts on their behalf. But I think even more interestingly, the agent can then monitor, manage, and to some extent, like proactively resolve issues. So this one has a problem. Should I look at the network configuration? Should I reboot the device? Should I do XYZ? Somebody opened a ticket for an issue in room X. Let me go check on the status. Somebody sent a slack message about poor audio quality in room Y. Let me go have a look at what's going on. That's definitely going to happen too. And the first one is sort of on us. The second one is, I think, will be about providing an open platform that allows our customers to do this effectively and sort of having the relevant AI","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":26,"time":"19:35","seconds":1175,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"interface for it. And that's like, we've seen There's so much progress there just over the last few months, to be honest. If I talk to some large, I remember I had a conversation with some of our large customers late last year. Asked about AI, using it for other things. Topic Postelia, that's interesting for producing a better meeting experience. And now they're kind of, they're all part of the MCP beta and everybody asks about integration with different agents and that's like this made a ton of progress just in a few months. So that's very exciting too.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":27,"time":"20:12","seconds":1212,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, it seems like that is taking off and there's so much more potential there because it's pretty clear to me that NEAT has made this bet that the next generation of shared space hardware is not just the hardware but this application platform that you're building on top of it to enable organizations. So, from meeting device through that platform there, it's clear that we have more potential to take advantage of it. Even if we don't improve the hardware in the short term, which I think Neat probably will be doing as well, we have a lot more that can be built on the top of it. But there's not like an app store for the meeting room at this point, I would presume. You're","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-18-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":28,"time":"20:52","seconds":1252,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"[OVERLAP] There is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-18-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":29,"time":"20:52","seconds":1252,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] simply","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-18-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":30,"time":"20:52","seconds":1252,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"[OVERLAP] a neat","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-18-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":31,"time":"20:52","seconds":1252,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] like,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-18-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":32,"time":"20:52","seconds":1252,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"[OVERLAP] app store","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-18-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":33,"time":"20:53","seconds":1253,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] oh,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-18-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":34,"time":"20:53","seconds":1253,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"[OVERLAP] actually, called","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-18-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":35,"time":"20:54","seconds":1254,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] never","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-18-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":36,"time":"20:54","seconds":1254,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"[OVERLAP] App","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-18-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":37,"time":"20:54","seconds":1254,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] mind, okay.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-18-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":38,"time":"20:55","seconds":1255,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"Club. This is an interesting challenge as well. So customers buy our devices and their enterprises, and they typically expect them to last for plus","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":39,"time":"21:09","seconds":1269,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"[OVERLAP] minus five years, quite often, typically five years. So they buy","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-19-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":40,"time":"21:12","seconds":1272,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-19-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":41,"time":"21:12","seconds":1272,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"[OVERLAP] them. It's a long-term decision. They want it to be relevant and useful for at least the next five years. And then we have all this change happening in parallel, right? And now they're on platform X, they might move to something in the future. There will definitely be a new application that you want to use in the shared spaces where our device is in that we haven't even heard of yet. When you have these major tech transitions, there's always like a new player or a new application that's like relevant for how people work together. It's like","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-19-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":42,"time":"21:44","seconds":1304,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Totally.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-19-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":43,"time":"21:45","seconds":1305,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"[OVERLAP] too early to tell which one it is now. We don't really know, but I'm pretty sure there is one and then some of the encampments they kind of move quickly and they fast follow and they catch up and some of them like sometimes fall by the wayside and they're not there like if you look at previous transitions you will prior to the transition see names that are no longer here. So then we","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-19-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":44,"time":"22:04","seconds":1324,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"still have to provide something that gives our customers comfort that that device is useful for the next six years. So the way that we're doing that is that you can use our device across all the main platforms. We also have what we call Neat App Hub that allows you to install and run other applications, like","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":45,"time":"22:24","seconds":1344,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Mm.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":46,"time":"22:24","seconds":1344,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"that could be for collaborative whiteboarding, project management, also use cases outside of the meeting room, wayfinding, visitor management, things like that. So it's useful for more things. It's like, it's a platform to enable other applications. And then we make sure that the ecosystem is open. I think quite a lot of vendors, when they see AI is like, okay, how can I make a new AI feature? And they like add a button or a capability or something within their platform. But, um, AI and agentic workflows now is just as much about working across platforms. So you need to make sure that your platform is open and it's easy to integrate with. And that's always been the case for NIT. So that used to be a broad modern API surface, events, webhooks. Now it's an MCP service. It's just making sure that we continue to evolve that in a way that's also useful for agents. So that's like our keyword for that is open. Any platform, any applications, any integrations, we have to be open to support and run the applications you need to run and to integrate with whatever you want to integrate with. And quite often now that's some agentic workflow, but yeah, that's important to us.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":47,"time":"23:44","seconds":1424,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"How do you expect these agentic workflows to evolve over the next year or two on top of the Neat platform and through this open approach that you're taking?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":48,"time":"23:55","seconds":1435,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"Yeah, that's a good question. I think a lot will happen in the meeting room, but we sort of own that. We have to do that. Like we have to then","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":49,"time":"24:05","seconds":1445,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"have new detectors or use agents to kind of produce better meetings and sort of be the director for the meeting room. When it comes to the product management side of things, I think we're going to see kind of a pretty rapid adoption. in using agents to effectively manage kind of device fleets also at scale. So anything that has to do with monitoring, anything that has to do with management, anything that has to do with like installations or configuration. And I think again, it's going to move into move into kind of It's not self-healing, it's like, does anybody, it's probably a buzzword, I'm sure, agentic healing. But like, it's going to be an agent that sort of then does actions to resolve issues, both directly in our platform, but also across platforms. That's the next year. And then who knows what happens after that. But I think that's definitely going to happen. That's happening now. So that will just accelerate.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":50,"time":"25:12","seconds":1512,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And then as far as in-room, obviously you mentioned detectors as an area where there's improvement opportunities, models are a clear opportunity as somewhere that you've been leaning in and needs training their own custom models, as you mentioned earlier. Can you talk a bit about that interim experience and how you're thinking about improving the models that you're using on the edge here? I know you can't share too much detail, but we'd love to understand a bit about the decisions you're making around when to use custom-built and trained in-house computer vision models versus pulling from exterior sources, and why you're taking the training approach that you are.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":51,"time":"25:53","seconds":1553,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"I think we're just like, we just flexibly use whatever is best. Like if we can find something that's available that we can use, we'll use that. If we need to build something or customize something more, we'll do that. I don't think we have like a, in this case, we'll do that. In that case, we'll do that. But typically models are trained on date. It's a bit odd, right? Sort of stuff that goes on in the meeting room. It's not like a security camera or a car or","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":52,"time":"26:22","seconds":1582,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"stuff you typically find online. So there is an element of making sure that that model is trained on the relevant data set and tested and works in the real world. environment. So that's like, that's just a continuous thing that you have to keep, keep up with. An area of focus for us now is making this work, like right now is making that work across well across devices. So increasingly, we're doing like multi-device rooms, especially when they get a bit larger. And it initially was like, about a simple all-in-one device. You bought us what we call the neat bar, you put that on top of your TV, you bought a neat board that also had the screen, you put that in the meeting room. Now you're putting more devices into the room. How do we think about models, inference, cross-device collaboration and orchestration? So that's an area of focus. And then I think where this is going next is like, so today, Typically like detectors are like ML or computer vision.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":53,"time":"27:31","seconds":1651,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"But","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":54,"time":"27:33","seconds":1653,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"the decisions that you make to produce the end, the result experience, those algorithms are still to a large extent deterministic, right? So if somebody does this, or if somebody talks, or if you have more than X people do this. that's also going to change at some point. So sort of the actual director or what makes the decisions about what layout or what experience you want to produce and provide to the far end is also going to be sort of a model that's trained and it's like inference and that's how you make the decisions. That transition hasn't really happened Yet, it requires some amount of data, probably more data than most companies have today on this. And then it also requires a decent amount of compute. And because we have devices and we need to work on devices that have been in the market for a while, we pick chipsets that are supported for a long time. There's also some compute constraints on what's currently deployed. So that's like, that's something that's going to happen next. And we're going to try to be there first. It's not, the tech and what's in the room is not quite ready for it yet, but that's definitely something I think is going to happen in the not too distant future.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":55,"time":"28:54","seconds":1734,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It's super interesting talking to you about this because the constraints that you and the team at Neat are operating under are so different from some of the constraints for when I talk to someone who's focused on like AI coding, for example. For them, it's, you know, hey, I'm just trying to get access to, you know, new GPUs from NVIDIA, from AMD, from whoever, and the hardware is continually evolving. But to your point earlier about companies expecting that, hey, my meeting room is going to hold up for five years, maybe eight years at the outside, depending on where things are. There is a much longer lag of hardware capability. And so you're forced to operate under these edge constraints. And I think it's making for some real innovation in that space. We had a great conversation with Maxime Le Bon at Liquid AI last year about their approach to post-training and how they've had to think through the differences as far as approaching like smaller post-train models and the gains they can find there. And I'm sure you're seeing the same because as you pointed out, you have this other constraint too, where you can't train off your customer data. Like this is enterprise data. They want to Um, hold that tightly. Uh, and I can imagine that that is creating constraints around what you're able to do in training because there's only so much we need to get out there. As you pointed out earlier, um, you can't really train that well, I would assume off of like a security camera for you. It's very different from what you're doing. How are you solving these constraints and like, what do you do to successfully operate under them? I'd love to understand more about like how the team solves these problems.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":56,"time":"30:32","seconds":1832,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, that's like, I think, like, often, like, what's a resource, because constrained resources, like, that sort of has to foster in, if you feel like you have a box to innovate within, your resources are constrained, what do you do? You have to be innovative, I guess.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-31-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":57,"time":"30:43","seconds":1843,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-31-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":58,"time":"30:44","seconds":1844,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"So, but you're definitely right. So our devices are typically Android devices, which you can think of the computer a bit like a, like a mobile phone, typically, right? So, so that means that what we have to deal with is That's the latest generation of mobile compute that was available at the time that we designed that piece of hardware. Which means that if you expect a five year lifetime, then you'd have to operate with technology that's a bit like what you would find on a new phone five years ago, basically. At least if you look at the single device, and then there are multiple, but it's not really a laptop even. It's not a Mac Mini with a lot of memory, and it's definitely not a cloud-level GPU.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":59,"time":"31:31","seconds":1891,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"So what does that mean? Well, it means a few things. So we do hardware and software. From a hardware perspective, it means that we need to be quick to market with the latest generation chipsets, i.e. be close to the chipset vendors and manufacturers, get early access, build devices quickly so we don't like lose time and spend two years making the product after the chipset was available. And then we need to build in enough headroom for the rest of what that device has and does, if it's like cooling or memory or the other decisions that we make, so that that device has headroom for future innovation. So we can run the chipsets to its fullest. We have some more room to potentially do local models, things like that. So from a hardware perspective, do devices quickly on the latest generation hardware built in headroom. From a software perspective, it's a lot about optimization and efficiency, which also fortunately gets better over time, right? How can we do the detectors more efficiently? How do we do those across different devices? How often do we have to do it for different things? And that's like a continuous optimization journey. And then we have to we have to make that work alongside running like the meeting application, which also consumes resources, which also wants to use more AI. So yeah, I guess that's it's like a continuous optimization, making sure you have great hardware out there with some headroom. And then it's a continuous optimization game, basically. And the hardware that's out there now, I yeah, well, the hardware that's currently available that you can build products with now is a lot more capable than what was out there when a lot of devices were built in the past. So that's also exciting. We'll get to do like newer, cooler things with new hardware, but yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":60,"time":"33:24","seconds":2004,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, it seems like there is a lot of potential for this area to grow and for us to have these more integrated meeting experiences. I mean, obviously there's companies like Meta that have made big bets on the Metaverse and these other ideas, but those seem to maybe be a little farther, farther afield. And in the short term, there are opportunities around, you know, what does the meeting room deliver? How, what can we actually drive here? And You know, while we have agents that we're starting to deploy to support this and pull information and align to the data in the room, I can imagine that there's just a ton more opportunity here. And you've talked a bit about it. Are there particular areas that Neat is planning to invest in around opening up the platform and enabling partners to build applications or to, I guess, what's the pitch for a developer to build for the meeting room? Where can they make an impact?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":61,"time":"34:24","seconds":2064,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"Anybody builds for teams like so a meeting room is a bit different from like an individual use case because there's it's typically it's not like quite a lot of applications are built for an individual user. Right? What what's useful in the meeting room is typically applications that I built for like a shared use case. So it's something that people like you want people to come together around. So if you're working with. which are some kind of solution that supports or helps a group of people. That group is not always remote in front of their individual laptops. They're like sometimes together in a meeting room. If that's what you're doing, then Neat has a platform to deliver that application into the shared space. Um, like project management, uh, whiteboarding is like typical examples today, but like with agentic interfaces too, that's going to be different than something else. Right. How, how, like, if you're thinking about,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":62,"time":"35:24","seconds":2124,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"uh, agents supporting groups working together, uh, I don't know what that could be. Like that, that can be, I imagine we'll see, there's going to be a lot of innovation there. If you want to deliver that to a group of people that are together physically, then Neat has a platform for that. It's quite easy to experiment with. We have a developer platform, we have well-defined APIs, SDKs, so you can kind of get or pull information from our devices. You want the microphones or the cameras if you want to interact with the screen, whatever you want to do. We have a platform for that. I think we're going to see a lot of innovation there. We typically have either like standard Android apps that participate in our program and are part of our sort of app catalog. We support web apps, which is another easy way to just deploy something to our device that we can basically do. do anything. And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":63,"time":"36:20","seconds":2180,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"I think also we're going to see companies now having their own sort of company AI built apps. So there's going to be like an influx of that as well. So we also want to be a platform For that, and we're just thinking about our role in that, how can we make it easier to help you maybe create or at least deploy an app that's relevant for your team.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":64,"time":"36:47","seconds":2207,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Love that. I think it speaks to this vision for what's possible and how you're going to be able to enable your customers and partners here. And super excited to see where Neat is in a year or two as you continue to have these new capabilities on software and hardware. Let's talk a bit more about the hardware side. I can imagine getting enough compute to the edge, whether that's NPUs, GPUs, memory, et cetera, plus the right cameras and mic is a bottleneck. Where's the gap today between what you want to run locally and what the silicon actually allows?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":65,"time":"37:26","seconds":2246,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"Yeah, what we want, like we'll just make the most out of what we have, I guess. A","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":66,"time":"37:38","seconds":2258,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"good question. I think so. So typically our devices, they run sort of these system on chip. So it's like a combination of CPU, NPU, GPU, that's sort of a package that you then kind of deploy on your device. You don't make, you tend not to make separate choices about CPU, GPU, NPU. You sort of have this version that you can get, and it has this combination And then obviously, if you look at the acceleration on first GPUs, now also NPUs, that's like, if not an order of magnitude, then at least like significantly, relatively speaking, significantly more efficient than capable, and much more so than the progression that we've seen in CPU, because that's what we need. more of so for us that means there's a few things we can do we can put more devices into a room so they all don't necessarily have the latest gen chipsets but we can put a few more in so we have more compute in the room so we distribute like unlike most others we distribute compute so all the devices that you put in even if it's just a camera or if it's just a microphone it has compute we can use that and then we need to bring new devices to the market with the latest generation chipset are significantly more capable. And when we do that, we can do more in terms of sort of reading the room and having more powerful models typically still have to be sort of rather narrow or kind of targeted.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":67,"time":"39:13","seconds":2353,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"But yeah, actually basically understanding more of what's going on.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":68,"time":"39:18","seconds":2358,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So as this all evolves, we're also seeing other approaches to AI and hardware and AI on edge devices. One example of this is there are a couple different startups that are trying to do like AI pendants, for example, that are in some ways providing like a personalized meeting function. What are your thoughts on these other approaches to AI hardware? Obviously, they're serving related but slightly different audiences. Just curious to get your take.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":69,"time":"39:46","seconds":2386,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"I think it's interesting.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":70,"time":"39:50","seconds":2390,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"What role does existing devices that you used to have in this, and to which extent is there room for new form factors and devices? So the jury's probably still out. Tends to swing back and forth a bit, right? What people think. Do you want it on the thing that's already on your meeting room, or your laptop, or your phone? Or is there a room for something else? What we know is that in the meeting room, people still need a device like ours, because there's no way around needing a screen, at least not anytime soon. I think people are going to still want a screen for a fair amount of time. They definitely need microphones, they need cameras. So we're already there with those devices. So for us, it makes sense to use that as sort of a platform or a system to deploy AI at the edge and in the shared spaces. I think there's potentially some And that's probably untapped.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":71,"time":"40:56","seconds":2456,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"There's some but limited interaction between a personal device and a shared device in a space like ours. Like, so should our device, which is a shared device to a larger or better extent, leverage like your laptop or your phone or whatever you're wearing in the future? Probably. I think that's, that's like, why shouldn't it? But. Yeah, for what we're doing, it's not like there's this new magic form factor I think we'll put in the meeting room to solve","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":72,"time":"41:31","seconds":2491,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"the problems that we're solving. There'll be more devices, more compute, new experiences, but some variation of form factors that you see today. Yes,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":73,"time":"41:42","seconds":2502,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] more about seeing how you integrate with these other devices and how you can combine.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-46-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":74,"time":"41:46","seconds":2506,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"[OVERLAP] it's an interesting area.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-46-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":75,"time":"41:48","seconds":2508,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Interesting. Let's talk a bit about how Neat is using AI internally. I'd love to understand, you know, your approach with your team, whether it's AI coding, where else you're leveraging it. Obviously, AI is being integrated into your products, but it's always interesting to hear from leaders like yourself about how your team is actually adopting AI.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-46-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":76,"time":"42:09","seconds":2529,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"Yeah, that's another thing I spent quite a bit of time on.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":77,"time":"42:12","seconds":2532,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I can imagine.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":78,"time":"42:14","seconds":2534,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"But I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":79,"time":"42:14","seconds":2534,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-49-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":80,"time":"42:14","seconds":2534,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"[OVERLAP] can't tell them, right? So the thing here, I think, is to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-49-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":81,"time":"42:21","seconds":2541,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"just give... Well, we have a lot of developers, obviously, that's where we seek out the most significant use, like coding, AI coding, obviously. But it's also used by hardware teams and marketing and other teams in the company. In general, just make sure that you give access to the tools that people want to try. Sometimes it's good to not be the biggest company. We're sort of a decent size now, but if I or if the leaders want to make a tool available, because there's something new that looks useful, we can do that in a few hours. I can Slack message. Some assessment is needed sometimes, but we can move very quickly on making tools available. So make sure that developers and the team has access to the tools that they need or that they think they want to try even to kind of become more effective make sure that they are like encouraged to and have time to experiment and learn and do new things because if you always feel that you're like incredibly busy it can be kind of tempting just to revert to the old way of doing things that's not going to work now you just need to have time and backing to just like try something new to try to do it in a new way to try to use the tool to work in a different like repo or something else that you haven't worked on before so like enough time and encouragement to experiment and learn because this has to be driven to a large extent bottom up the individual like there's no way Anybody can kind of sit and kind of tell people what to do or how to do it. There's no course you can send people to. There's no university you can go to, to learn it. You have to like, just be, you have to like, want to experiment and learn and all the developers individually have to do that. So that's like, give them the tools, give them like, make sure they have like, motivation, they have themselves, but like time backing to experiment and learn. Make sure they learn from each other, because this is moving so quickly. Some people will have learned a lot about this, and some people will have learned a lot about that, and some others would have failed by trying to do this. So make sure you have the right forums or places where they can connect. If it's like Lunch&Learn, or demos, or slack channels, or innovation days, or whatever you want, connect, learn from each other. Um, and then I think increasingly it's also going to be about, there's going to be some level of, uh, learning on like structure and processes and roles. Okay. So designer used to do this, product manager used to do that, developer used to do this. So like, okay, okay. But that's not, that doesn't necessarily have to be the case any longer. How can we like pull the design further into a simpler implementation? How can the product manager do a prototype and even start doing the feature rather than just doing the spec or doing the requirements? How can the designer, how can the developer not have to ask for design because there's a skill that just does the design for that specific feature. So like think about roles, think about processes, think about how you structure your repos and sort of making agents kind of more easily capable and then","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":82,"time":"45:41","seconds":2741,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"like be mindful of how and where you let the AI coding loose and it's going to be a bit different. You're going to want to be more aggressive with sort of the adjacent stuff that's less dangerous and you're going to want to be a bit more careful with like your platform code or your DevOps environments and just like be mindful. Be mindful and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":83,"time":"46:07","seconds":2767,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"[OVERLAP] conscious decisions about where and how to use it. So yeah, long","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-51-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":84,"time":"46:11","seconds":2771,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-51-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":85,"time":"46:11","seconds":2771,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"[OVERLAP] answer,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-51-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":86,"time":"46:11","seconds":2771,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] it's, it's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-51-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":87,"time":"46:12","seconds":2772,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"like some of the things we've been thinking about and working on.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":88,"time":"46:15","seconds":2775,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] It's a tough thing to grapple with. It's fascinating to see how AI adoption is rapidly changing teams and how some are succeeding and some aren't. But it's not just technical roles either. Like I talked to a friend of mine in marketing earlier today and she was saying that this is the first company she's been at. She recently took a new job where instead of having a CMS that she can make easy edits for, she has to now go through Git and that that has become normalized because they're using agents to build the site and do most of the work on it. And it's, you know, creating a learning curve for her and she's adapting. But I think we're seeing this across every role. Anyone who is driving forward with this is having to learn how they can integrate AI tooling into their own personal productivity stack for work. And I think your point, you know, much earlier in this conversation about how Neat is setting up a platform for people to build and leverage. as far as having an MCP, the APIs that you already underpinned it with, but providing access to people's own meeting data so that they can leverage it in a variety of ways throughout their org speaks to the kind of approach that organizations need to use internally as well. Okay, how can we open up opportunities for our team to build and succeed? And how can we then provide the learnings that you pointed out of like, both learnings from their coworkers, but also externally, hey, here's what's happening. So love that you're thinking through that. And I think it's really crucial across every role today, whether you are","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-52-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":89,"time":"47:44","seconds":2864,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"[OVERLAP] Both","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-52-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":90,"time":"47:44","seconds":2864,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] someone who's on the go-to-market side, whether you're, you know, deep on the technical side, or if you're in the executive layer, you still need to be understanding what's going on too, because to your point, it's not going to be 100% effective if you just say, oh, go token max. So we can look at the complaints that like Uber and Meta and elsewhere about like token leaderboards and how they're suddenly like having to pull those back because people have optimized for the metric in a way that is not necessarily healthy for the org.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-52-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":91,"time":"48:07","seconds":2887,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"tokens are not free. So yeah","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":92,"time":"48:09","seconds":2889,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yes. Yes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":93,"time":"48:10","seconds":2890,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"[OVERLAP] Now, I think","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-54-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":94,"time":"48:11","seconds":2891,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-54-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":95,"time":"48:11","seconds":2891,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"other functions, to some extent, because they started with developers, they sort of know how to use these tools, right? Because they're quite accustomed to kind of setting them up, configuring them, and they're built very much for their use case. I think the other functions There are some law, the simple stuff is law hanging, right? You want to use it to do market research or help you with the presentation. But if you want to use it for something that's like more core to your work, like if it's prospecting for sales or if it's marketing or finance, um, somebody is going to have to help out a bit. You can't just throw an MCP server and unclog the code at them. There needs to be somebody there. The companies who do that successfully will build capabilities in-house to partner as part of those functions or to partner with those functions to understand their workflows, their needs, and how they can effectively deploy AI and that's going to need even more help than what developers needed because they're less technical functions.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":96,"time":"49:20","seconds":2960,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, I had a great conversation with Angie Jones when she was at Block. She's now at the Agentic AI Foundation. But when we talked, she talked about the rollout of Goose, Block's AI agent, to employees across the company and how It was fascinating to kind of go from this initial rollout to, oh wait, I'm seeing, you know, non-technical team members use this coding agent to build their own MCPs to do custom tasks. Like I've built quite a few MCPs for my podcast workflow, let alone, like, and I want to say I've built them. I mean, like I've asked Opus to help","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-55-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":97,"time":"49:55","seconds":2995,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"[OVERLAP] Yes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-55-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":98,"time":"49:55","seconds":2995,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] me build them typically, or I've asked Codex to help me build them. Uh, so it's, it's fascinating to see how this is all changing and, uh, couldn't be more excited to see what happens with neat as well in the next few years. I think there is clearly a mass opportunity for you as you scale both the hardware and software side of what you're doing and then provide this open platform. So would love just a closing thought from you about where you see needs future. And, um, for anyone who's interested in learning more about the company or checking out open roles, where they should go.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-55-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":99,"time":"50:27","seconds":3027,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"yeah check out the website neat.no or reach out to me directly linkedin probably or wherever you can find me. closing, what we want to do. So I love being in doing products when there are big changes and opportunities from a technology perspective. I think that's fantastic. I'm not here to just copy what everybody else is doing. If you have new technology shifts like AI, it's like that's a very exciting time to build products. That's where we're at. So we want to be at the forefront of making sure that the meeting room transforms into sort of a proactive participant in a meeting that it bends into the background and just make sure that you that you can get on with you make the meeting and we make it work basically and we're going to be doing that in new and exciting ways with AI and other cool technologies.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":100,"time":"51:24","seconds":3084,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I love that you bring up this idea of proactive participant, because I think we're seeing that across technology right now. And the meeting room is a huge example, but I think everyone is trying to make their tech stack more proactive with them. And that's a lot of what we're doing with automation and with AI, with these non-deterministic models. And it's a very exciting time, as you point out. So couldn't be more thankful that you joined us for this conversation today. It's been a ton of fun to our mood. I think our audience is going to love it. So yeah, thank you so much for joining us. It's been a pleasure.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":101,"time":"51:54","seconds":3114,"speaker":"Tormod Ree","text":"Thank you. Thanks for having me.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room","episode":70,"guid":"1618e599-ab02-4c9c-b30d-01ec91b541b7","episodeTitle":"11 Cameras, Dozens of Mics: The AI That Reads the Room | Tormod Ree, Neat","publishedAt":"2026-08-27","segmentIndex":102,"time":"51:56","seconds":3116,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And for everyone listening, one last reminder, if you haven't subscribed on your platform of choice, whether that's YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts, please do. And check out chainofthought.show and our newsletter at newsletter.chainofthought.show for so much more from the show, including transcripts, deep dives, takeaways, FAQs, and much more. And we'll keep bringing you incredible guests like Tormod every week. Thank you all. And Tormod, thanks again for joining us.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/70-11-cameras-dozens-of-mics-the-ai-that-reads-the-room/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Joel Hron","text":"we probably spent somewhere around $40 million in the last several years. We could answer about 25% of those questions in one shot on the prior version of CoCounsel. And when we built this new version, almost overnight, we got north of 70%. And what we see is that Thomson outperformed some of the best models in the world on deep research. This is not the end for us.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:27","seconds":27,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Labs spend billions of dollars training frontier models. Thomson Reuters says the final training run for its new Thomson model cost about $450,000, building off of the Imperial College's Snowdon open-source model from the Qwen 3.5 family and adding the company's proprietary content and expertise. Early evaluations put the results on par with leading frontier models across a range of tasks, with stronger performance in areas where Thomson Reuters' proprietary content and tools come into play. Welcome to Chain of Thought. I'm your host, Conor Bronsdon, here with a model release episode. Make sure you have subscribed and you've turned on downloads or new notifications on YouTube. Joining me today is Joel Hron, the Chief Technology Officer at Thomson Reuters, where he leads product engineering across legal, tax, audit, and compliance, including Westlaw, Practical Law, and CoCounsel, which is used by millions of professionals across over 100 countries. Joel and Thomson Reuters are betting that in an era where renting significant intelligence is available to everybody, the advantage has moved to orchestration and data, knowing which intelligence fits which work and which layers of the stack you need to own yourself. Joel, congratulations on the launch of Thomson today. How are you feeling?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":2,"time":"1:44","seconds":104,"speaker":"Joel Hron","text":"Thanks. I'm super excited about what's ahead. Feeling good, Conor. Thanks.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:48","seconds":108,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I'm loving that we are getting these bespoke, highly intelligent model launches, and I think Thomson is a great one to unpack. Before we do that, though, I do want to dive into the details of Thomson, but I want to say a quick thank you to our presenting sponsors for season four of Chain of Thought. Svix, delivering reliable enterprise webhooks at link.svix.com slash C-O-T, and Walrus Memory, giving AI agents portable, verifiable memory at walrus.xyz slash C-O-T. All right, Joel, so let's set the stage a bit before we talk in depth about the model, because I suspect a lot of our audience knows Thomson Reuters mainly as a news brand, and that's a small slice of the company. How does an information services company become an AI company? And what does agentic AI change about how you can leverage all the data and the portfolio of Westlaw, et cetera?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":4,"time":"2:46","seconds":166,"speaker":"Joel Hron","text":"Yeah, so I'll start at the beginning there. I mean, a lot of people know the brand of Reuters, you know, as a media company, as you would expect. But as you said, you know, the media business is actually a relatively small portion of our overall business. The primary parts of our business, as you said earlier, legal, tax, compliance, audit, risk, across all of those categories, we're one of the effectively top three software providers in the world across each of them. And so we have quite significant businesses across each. And if you look at the common thread that ties them all together, and really the history of Thomson Reuters as a company, it's really been about content and expertise. We have been an information services company for a long time, delivering trusted knowledge and trusted expertise to help practitioners in each of those areas do their job and do their job well. And so that's really, I would say, the thread that ties all of those things together. Now, you know, we have been, I think, under transformation for really the last 10 years as a company, transforming from an information services business into a technology business. And really what that means is that, you know, as you know, print fell off and digital increased, like software became the delivery mechanism for that technology and for that expertise. And as we look at ourselves now, as you say, as an AI technology company, AI is a delivery mechanism for the knowledge and the expertise that TR possesses and serves into the market. And AI, in fact, is like a tremendously effective delivery mechanism for the type of knowledge and the type of expertise that we've built over many decades. And so That is really how we see ourselves evolving, certainly with AI as a central foundational part of what we build, but ultimately the goal and the objective for what and why we build is to deliver expert knowledge and information to the practices that we serve.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":5,"time":"5:03","seconds":303,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And this is what drove you to create Thomson. Can you tell the audience a bit about this new launch and what they should expect from this uniquely positioned new model?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":6,"time":"5:14","seconds":314,"speaker":"Joel Hron","text":"Yeah, so, you know, when we started the development of Thomson, you know, we really sort of looked at AI and we said, okay, like, what's driving the flywheel of these capabilities? And it really boils down to kind of three main components. It was compute, which everybody talks a lot about, it was data, and it was expertise, and particularly, like, top-tier expertise. And, you know, from a data and expertise standpoint, really what separated those things is not just like more internet data or more of Reddit or more of anything that everybody in the world has access to, but really like unique specialized data and unique specialized expertise that was atypical. Atypical meaning it was out of distribution of everything else that's easy to get, and it moved the frontier. And that was really what was, and still is, I think driving the flywheel of AI capabilities, is unique data, expert data, expert judgment that continues to move that frontier beyond where it is today. And we have those things better than anybody else in the world, in law, in tax, in compliance, audit, et cetera. And so our belief was that if we can really leverage those things, the most, I think, impactful way to leverage those things is through a model itself, like the direct intelligence of the model. And so that's really why we set out on this. The compute side of that equation was certainly, I think, a question that we had in our heads around, like, could we keep up with the compute demands of training models of this size? And I think really the bet we made, if you will, was that the open source community would continue to grow and evolve and keep pace with the frontier. And I think over the last several years, there's certainly been, I think, peaks and troughs of that. But if you plotted kind of the average intelligence, I think you would see pretty consistent tracking of open source capabilities, you know, alongside frontier, if not just a couple months behind. And so that was really the bet we made in that if open source general intelligence continued to increase at that pace, then the specialized intelligence that we could add to it with our content and our data and our expertise would continue to stack on that. And as the tide of open source rose, our ability to post-train our unique knowledge on top of that would rise as well with that tide. And I think we've seen that continue to prove itself out. And that's one of the reasons that our post-training, mid and post-training methodologies around Thomson are quite cost-efficient, because we do benefit quite a lot from all of the great work that's happening in the open-source community.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":7,"time":"8:21","seconds":501,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I wonder if Thomson Reuters is the oldest company to release a model, because Thomson Reuters is what, 175 years old?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":8,"time":"8:31","seconds":511,"speaker":"Joel Hron","text":"Yeah, yeah. I mean, maybe more actually. We were flying carrier pigeons across the sea to deliver news way back in the day. So yeah, pretty old. I mean, we're probably one of the oldest companies on the planet. So I would venture to say the odds are pretty good we might be the oldest, but I don't want to state something I factually don't know.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":9,"time":"8:54","seconds":534,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I think it's really interesting though, because it indicates how willing Thomson Reuters is to transform and to adjust and leverage this massive trove of data that you've built over time. And it also speaks to exactly what you were saying, which is that the open source frontier models are enabling so much innovation for companies that are not open AI, are not Anthropic, are not oriented all around, let me build a model. I think that's just such an exciting moment for us to be in where it is realistic for a company that is intentional and has great data and has a great team to train an excellent model for what their users need. Talk to me a bit about how you went down this process and how this came about and the training piece.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":10,"time":"9:47","seconds":587,"speaker":"Joel Hron","text":"Yeah. I think he said something important in there, you know, specifically for what their users need. And I think, I think that really grounded our approach to training. You know, our approach to training was to say, Hey, look, we want to take a great open source foundation and add to it what our users really care about. And. ideally not give up anything that that open source foundation brings to the table. And so what we put a lot of focus on was really, I would say, two elements of training. One is bringing certainly our data and expertise to the table and curating very good data sets that are representative of the types of jobs our users and our products are trying to do. good evals that represent those jobs equally well. And then the second element of that was really developing training methodologies that add that data while not regressing or, you know, as the industry would say, catastrophically forgetting what it already knows. So these models are trained and instruction tuned around things that Thomson Reuters fundamentally is not the best in the world at. Things like coding or maths or other like general reasoning or instruction following capabilities. And, you know, the beauty of the open source is we get those capabilities for free. And so when we apply our data to it, we don't want to lose those capabilities. Like we need the model to still be generally fluent in these kinds of other things. And that, I think, is where, you know, I don't want to say the majority, but I would say a significant part of the science and engineering behind our training pipeline comes into play is how to do that effectively. from an algorithm standpoint, from a data mixture and selection standpoint, both in terms of continuous pre-training as well as post-training. And really, what I think I'm most excited about is that All of that work really has built somewhat of a pipeline, from model realignment, to continuous pre-training, to agentic reinforcement learning, Like that pipeline exists and we can continue to add our own data and our own human judgment and our own preferences to it. And at the front of that pipeline is an open source model. And so as both of those things get better and grow over time, like we apply the same pipeline and can really stack and scale on it over time. And so I think that's what's really exciting is that it's quite repeatable. And I think it gives us a flywheel to continue to improve this over time. I guess, you know, talking maybe a little bit more specifically about the training, like I said, there's really a few phases. It starts with an open source model and we sort of, you know, review and select what the best open source models at the time are on the things that we care about. We started training the version of Thomson we're releasing now back in back in June. And at that time, Qwen 3.5 was really one of the best models in the world that we could see. I mean, in the last two months, we've had at least a half dozen, if not more, open source models that have been released and surpassed that. So we'll keep looking at that. But at that time, this was Qwen 3.5. And the first thing we do is really, for any open source model, realign it to safety and ethics and values that TR represents. And so this is work that we jointly did with Imperial College to develop a practice to realign any open source model to sort of a de-biased standard that we can stand behind. And that was a really important part of work because it gave us confidence to be able to pick up virtually any open source model and get it to a state where we felt good with it being our starting point. And that's what Snowdon is. It's effectively a TR realigned version of Qwen. that serves as Thomson's starting point model.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":11,"time":"14:37","seconds":877,"speaker":"Joel Hron","text":"The next thing that we do in terms of model training involves continuous pre-training. And so what we do is take the corpus of Thomson Reuters' content from Westlaw Practical Law, our tax research content, which is called Checkpoint, the Reuters News Archive, and we go through a data selection process to identify what the most critical pieces of that raw content are to perform continuous pre-training on. And to this point, we started small there, but less than 10% of that corpus has been applied for continuous pre-training. So that's an element of the training process that we think will increase over time.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":12,"time":"15:29","seconds":929,"speaker":"Joel Hron","text":"The next stage is really around fine-tuning and direct preference optimization. And this is an area where our human experts are very heavily involved in terms of curating datasets that represent the types of tasks that we want the model to perform well at, as well as evals that represent those tasks as well. And then the last phase is really agentic reinforcement learning, where we will put the model into a harness, like a very simple agentic harness, with access to our TR applications and tools. So products like Westlaw or Practical Law. are made available to the agent through the harness, and the model learns how to use these tools effectively to do its work. And this is really important because we're publishing thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of cases a day. There's no practical way that we're going to keep the model current with the ever-changing dynamics of case law. And so we teach the model how to be really good at using Westlaw to stay current on the law or stay current on the tax side of things or stay current on the news. And the model learns how to use those tools effectively through the training process as well. And this is another area we really see us scaling and improving over the course of time as well.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":13,"time":"17:01","seconds":1021,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"This is so interesting because it feels like a rebirth of the Thomson Reuters portfolio in a way where you're taking all these well-known legacy products and decomposing them into tools that your agents can use and then also enabling your model to grow and learn off of this corpus of information. How did this work in practice? What were the implications of this on things like your new generation of CoCounsel legal and everything that is coming alongside the Thomson model?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":14,"time":"17:37","seconds":1057,"speaker":"Joel Hron","text":"Yeah, so CoCounsel Legal is our product. It is the application that users go to and can work with what we believe is the best legal agent in the world. And Thomson is the model. Now, when you say rebirth of the Thomson Reuters product portfolio, I think that's a good description of what we've done here. But that really happened at the CoCounsel stage. So CoCounsel is a product today that's really built around the Claude Agent SDK, and in fact, heavily the Claude models, but also other models from OpenAI, Google, etc. And that product works very much the same way that I just described the training of Thomson. We have decomposed Westlaw and Practical Law into agent-native tools that are built into the harness of CoCounsel. And CoCounsel is sort of, and the harness in particular, is really trained around using those tools effectively to conduct the legal work. And as we did that for CoCounsel, we found that it was like night and day. Our prior versions of CoCounsel that were sort of not, I'll say like coding agent native architectures, you know, when we look at, we have a benchmark for like all of legal tasks we call CoCounsel Bench. It's about 3,000 different kind of legal queries we add to it almost every day. But we could answer about 25% of those questions in one shot on the prior version of CoCounsel. And when we built this new version of CoCounsel, almost overnight, we got north of 70% just by giving the agent the tools it needed to sort of do the work and some basic instructions on how to use those tools. And so we were very encouraged by just that. Now, Thomson kind of takes that idea one step further and says, I'm not just going to write some skills and some system prompts on how the harness should use these tools. I'm going to actually train the model to use these tools more directly. And, and I think that's really like where we see the next horizon going. I think, importantly, this doesn't require that Thomson fully replaces Claude or OpenAI or Gemini, you know, from the stack. Like, you know, the first implementation of Thomson and CoCounsel is actually for bulk document review. So, like, think about large volumes of documents that need to be reviewed for due diligence or something like this. That's where Thomson will ship first next week when we launch it into CoCounsel. And I think we see a progressive path with Thomson to be able to just take on more and more components of that work, like components of search and re-ranking or citation analysis, all of these functions that happen underneath the agent. And really what the frontier of general intelligence is good at is kind of being an orchestrator on top of that. And so I think for us, like we see a path to improve Thomson and continue to funnel it into the larger agent ecosystem of CoCounsel rather than like a binary decision of this model versus that model. And I think that's how we'll progress the training of Thomson over time as well.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":15,"time":"21:13","seconds":1273,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It's interesting to think about how you then apply the human intelligence layer that Thomson has in the, I have no idea how many lawyers and tax professionals, perhaps more than any company in the world or more than most, that's for sure. How did that workforce apply their own feedback to the model and What did that cause over time as you started to bring in extensive human feedback?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":16,"time":"21:48","seconds":1308,"speaker":"Joel Hron","text":"Yeah, I mean, I think that is the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":17,"time":"21:54","seconds":1314,"speaker":"Joel Hron","text":"differentiating factor on a model like Thomson at the end of the day. And so we have set up, we've done this for a long time, like we've used our subject matter experts to drive our product development for a long time. And so in terms of like annotation tools and things like this that support like our SMEs building these kinds of tasks, Like, we actually had a lot of systems in place to support that. And it was really about just modeling the appropriate tasks for them to go represent and recreate and standing up sort of RL environments for them to kind of participate in that flow. So, you know, that was a muscle that we had. I think we could certainly get better at it, as any company can, but I think we've done that quite well. I think the real value that I see with owning the model layer, though, is if you think about the development of CoCounsel, the product, what does that look like today? So we have CoCounsel Bench and we evaluate the agent running, you know, whether it's Claude or OpenAI or another model. we evaluate the agent against CoCounsel bench and we say, okay, here are the sort of like, you know, X percent of things that didn't do well and we want to hill climb on these dimensions. And so what happens is our engineering and our science teams go in and they basically refine some system prompting or perhaps they write some new tools for the agent or write some new skills that help the agent use those tools better or make some tweaks to the harness itself. And these are the knobs that they're turning to try to get the agent to do better. Or they hope that OpenAI ships a new model that helps the agent get better at that thing naturally. So these are the knobs that are at our disposal today to hill climb CoCounsel Bench. I think the real, and what happens through that process is effectively a lot of A-B analysis. We turn some knobs, like I just mentioned, and we present that to our SMEs, and they basically adjudicate, hey, these, you know, answer B is better than A for these reasons, and we do that a lot of times. Certainly there's automated evals, but a lot of this comes down to human judgment and preference and feedback and ultimately we reach a candidate that says oh when we turn these knobs it was better and we like this and we're going to deploy that new version of the agent. And so this is the process of development when you don't own a model. But all of those interactions of the SME in the middle are data. Like every time I give like an A-B evaluation and an SME says I like answer B because it contained this and it didn't contain this and it said this this way, That is amazing data that encapsulates the judgment of a very well-practiced attorney in a really, really unique way. And I think what we really see as the opportunity for Thomson is to capture that data and apply it directly to a model and have that compound over time. Versus when you're just doing that with third party models where you don't control the weights directly, all of that intelligence and knowledge that is going into iterating the product is just exhausted. Like you make a change to the product and all of that other work you just did goes away because the next model that comes out changes it and you need to move from there. And so we really see this as a way to capture that knowledge and intelligence throughout those evaluation processes and compound it into the intelligence of a model over time. I've used the analogy before of renting a house versus buying a house. If you rent a house, you're paying a landlord and you've got a roof over your head and the landlord takes care of the house and makes sure everything works and that's great and that works, but you build no long-term equity. Whereas if you own a house, you may pay the same amount, maybe some things are slightly more expensive, you have some headaches that you didn't deal with before. But you are compounding that over time into something that is valuable and arguably increasing in value via that equity. And that's kind of how we think about model ownership. And again, I think model ownership is really focused on what are the things that we do best as a company? What are the things that our experts know best? And those are the things we really need to compound into the model. Everything else, we leave that to the Frontier Labs to solve and for the open source models to solve, potentially. We're not so focused on trying to be the best in the world at all things. We're really focused on being the best in the world at the things we know better than anybody else.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":18,"time":"27:04","seconds":1624,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Season 4 of Chain of Thought is delivered by Svix. We spend a lot of time talking about what agents need in production, and one of the least glamorous answers is events. Your customers want agent workflows that react to things happening inside your system, which means your API needs webhooks that actually work. Not just a post request and a prayer, retries, ordering, idempotency, replay protection. Svix does that as a service, and they wrote standard webhooks, the spec that Anthropic, OpenAI, and Google bailed against. So if your API doesn't have reliable webhooks, that's turning into a lost deal. Join Brex, Drata, Daytona, and many others on Svix. Get started at link.svix.com slash c-o-t or go to the show notes to grab the link. Qualified startups will get $12,000 in credits. $50,000 for YC companies. I can't recommend Svix enough. I'm a huge fan of their open source project. I've actually contributed a bit myself and they're so easy to integrate with. I think you'll really enjoy it. Check out Svix at link.svix.com slash C-O-T. And I think Westlaw is an obvious example here of this incredible decades-long human layer of annotating the law, of citations, notes. And the selective data advantage that I can see you applying to how you're training the Thomson model clearly is built upon this massive corpus of information, not to mention, as you put it, the human hours that you're putting in from lawyers. I can imagine there are people challenges though, because lawyers are busy people with expensive hourlies. How do you manage this in the context of a major model effort while also applying the already annotated data that is being put into these systems?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":19,"time":"28:59","seconds":1739,"speaker":"Joel Hron","text":"Yeah. So, I mean, I do think it's a mix. Again, this is one, well, there's really two reasons that we lean on our internal experts for this kind of work. A, you know, they're former practicing attorneys or practicing CPAs, things like this,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":20,"time":"29:19","seconds":1759,"speaker":"Joel Hron","text":"who work directly for us. And so, like, this trade-off of, like, I could bill this hour to a client or I could work on this model doesn't exist for them. Their job is to help TR curate excellent content for its customers, and content comes in the form of maybe a document or a practice note that they write, or it comes in the form of spending a couple hours building a multi-turn eval example for our training pipeline. And our SMEs are becoming fluid at doing both of those tasks as part of their job. That is the expertise that they bring to the table. The second reason it's important that we use our own SMEs is really data and privacy protection for our customers. I think our customers are quite rightly so in tune to protecting their IP as a company and sort of the way that they do things, the way that they practice, and the unique things that they bring to the market. And so we don't use any customer data in sort of informing the process of how Thomson gets trained or anything like that. But we use our internal experts to drive that process for that reason, because I think our customers are rightly so, I think, very conscious about how their IP and their secret sauce is being protected. And we want to be certainly respectful of that in how we train. That's really what we focus on from a human element. And I think our domain experts are probably best asset, even more so than our historical archives of content. The shape and type of data that moves the frontier in many ways is different than the shape of data that our historical content looks like. And it's really important that we continue to leverage those experts to kind of create this new data that continues to move the frontier for us.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":21,"time":"31:28","seconds":1888,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Let's talk about the results of all this. So I mentioned at the start of the show that the evals for Thomson look very promising in different dimensions. Can you share a bit about the eval methodology and where Thomson is focused as far as evaluations?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":22,"time":"31:45","seconds":1905,"speaker":"Joel Hron","text":"Yeah. So you'll see, we'll publish a technical paper next week that'll have a lot of detail on these evals and what we're seeing. I think I'll talk about two different dimensions of this. One is kind of the legal specific domains that we've had focus on. And the other is this idea of like catastrophic forgetting and how we prevent against that. In terms of the catastrophic forgetting, there's a really nice graphic that you'll see in this technical paper that's sort of a spider diagram of Qwen, Snowdon, and Thomson models across I think it's about 10 or 11 different general dimensions. So one of those dimensions would be legal, one would be tax, one would be journalism, one would be math, coding, instruction following, general reasoning, and so this is sort of like a a plot that shows what is the delta between Thomson and Qwen on each of those dimensions. And what you see is something very interesting, is we see that Thomson clearly gets better in legal as well as tax and journalism as you would expect. But I think the more important thing is that it does not regress in any of those other areas. We see a very small regression in coding and a very small regression in math, but actually all those other dimensions got better. Long context, all these kind of things. And we see this really nice halo effect through the training of Thomson. in these general dimensions versus just really spiky performance in legal. And that was really an important part of the training objective and the evals that we ran support that. So I would definitely call that out. I think it's a good indication of of how we have, and this paper talks a lot about continual learning. The idea of continual learning is that you don't lose what you learned before, you just learn something new. And that's been like a real core focus of Training Thomson. The second has been sort of on legal specific benchmarks. And there's a lot of public legal benchmarks certainly that we've used to help evaluate Thomson. We have focused a lot on internal benchmarks as well. So two things I'll mention. One is tabular analysis. So we'll be launching tabular analysis into","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":23,"time":"34:34","seconds":2074,"speaker":"Joel Hron","text":"CoCounsel next week. This is an area where you have high volume document review. So there's many, many calls, like speed and latency are quite important here, as well as cost. So this is a natural first place to drop Thomson. And what we see is that Thomson was outperforming the prior model versions that we were using by about five percentage points in terms of accuracy. So we were very encouraged by tabular analysis first and foremost in terms of answer quality, given the volume that is associated with that kind of task, which is why that's sort of the first production launch use case for us. The second thing that we see within legal has really been focused around deep research. So deep research in legal is very similar to what you might think of as deep research on the web, where a model within an agent harness goes out and you know, searches and synthesizes, searches and synthesizes, you know, recursively until it reaches an answer. And so we have built effectively deep research in the same process on top of our legal content. And what we see is that Thomson outperforms some of the best models in the world on deep research when given access to our content, even though these models are much larger in size than Thomson. that reinforcement or that that agentic reinforcement learning really helps support Thomson learning how to use these tools effectively to do these kind of tasks. And so that's another data point that'll be in this paper that I think we're really encouraged about in terms of like training direction for Thomson as well.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":24,"time":"36:26","seconds":2186,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, the context harness you provide a model and let it continue to learn on is super important and definitely where I see Thomson Reuters having an advantage. What about some of the broader benchmarks? Because I know, I think the obvious other name that comes up in when people talk about like legal models is Harvey and I know they've just released a model as well. How are you comparing against them and some of the frontier models like Fable 5 or GPT 5.6 Sol when it comes to some of the broader benchmarks that are out there?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":25,"time":"36:58","seconds":2218,"speaker":"Joel Hron","text":"Yeah, I think, you know, I would say, like, across those broader benchmarks, we see our model, like, in the top 5 to 10 of those best models in the world. Again, like, the broader benchmarks, and also, you know, I don't know too much about Harvey's model, but I think it was a derivative of Kimi K3, you","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":26,"time":"37:22","seconds":2242,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] It was, yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-25-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":27,"time":"37:22","seconds":2242,"speaker":"Joel Hron","text":"[OVERLAP] know, which is, like, several trillion parameters in size, like, Thomson's base model is a few hundred billion parameters in size. So like we're talking, you know, an order of magnitude smaller in terms of size. And some of that was just driven by when we started training back in June. I think we'll certainly like maybe progress our model sizes up. But again, our goal in training Thomson isn't necessarily to compete with Fable 5 across all dimensions of frontier intelligence either, right? I think our goal with Thomson is to build a model that's on the Pareto frontier of AI, incredibly intelligent and good at doing legal tasks at an extremely competitive price point. And I think when we look at sort of that Pareto frontier and where we want to be with our model, like, I think, I think we feel really, really confident in it. Um, and, and, and we will continue to use, I think, other frontier models, like, like, uh, whether it's five, six or other versions for like frontier intelligence kinds of activities in conjunction with Thomson.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-25-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":28,"time":"38:35","seconds":2315,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I know you have some model routing built into a lot of your products too, depending on the task. So","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-25-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":29,"time":"38:40","seconds":2320,"speaker":"Joel Hron","text":"[OVERLAP] Right.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-25-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":30,"time":"38:40","seconds":2320,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] having Thomson here does enable you to simply be much more cost efficient and task efficient depending on your users needs. I also think another interesting element of this is something that you brought up with me when we were chatting before this episode, which is the idea that legal can just be trickier to understand for a model because code verifies itself. Does it build? Does it test? Does it run? It compiles. Law doesn't really have that same standard. It's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-25-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":31,"time":"39:13","seconds":2353,"speaker":"Joel Hron","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-25-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":32,"time":"39:15","seconds":2355,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"much different. It's a very human activity. How do you build the verification loop for this domain that has no real ground truth oracle?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":33,"time":"39:26","seconds":2366,"speaker":"Joel Hron","text":"Yeah, that's one of the reasons that our domain experts are so important is because there is no automated verification loop for these models like there is with code. Humans are still the primary source of that verification. And I think the more signal that we can get from our SMEs to help the model understand, like, what does verification mean? How do I verify myself? I think the better the model gets at doing that. In fact, within CoCounsel itself, we have a patent pending around really our approach around citation ledgers and citation verification. And so part of this is at the model layer, but part of it is at the application and harness level of how does the model go through the process of verifying the claims that it's making. We even released a product called Litigation Document Analyzer in Westlaw. And what that product does is it will decompose like a legal brief or a document similarly into every claim made in that document. And for every claim in that document, it will go out and it will try to find case law that supports the claim and reference that directly in a table effectively. And if it can't find sources that verify that claim, it'll say so. And so these are like, A, applications that we release to our customers to help them verify, but also these are similar like tools that we build into the agent itself to help it verify claims that it's making and sort of assertions that it's making along the way as well. And I think that that's part of the model layer, certainly in terms of training, but it's also part of like the harness and tool development that we think about as well.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":34,"time":"41:31","seconds":2491,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I know part of how you're tracking the success here is around citations and that there's been quite a bit of work that's been done here. Obviously, it's very important to the legal field. What's the citation approach? And can you tell us a bit about how Westlaw and Thomson are working together to provide citation ledgers and some of the patents you filed there as well?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":35,"time":"41:54","seconds":2514,"speaker":"Joel Hron","text":"Yeah, so this is what I mentioned in terms of the citation ledger, and I think this is a really important part of the way CoCounsel works. Effectively, this is a register for the agent of like every case that it has inspected throughout its research process, and this ledger is used to really ground the agent in terms of the claims it's making. I should back up just a second. Hallucinations are one of the things that plagues the legal industry more than anything right now. And the truth is hallucinations that fabricate case names are really bad. Ideally, we don't want that to happen either. It does happen, but I would say more infrequently than you would expect or than you hear about in the news. generally fabricating case names is a very bad thing, but we see that at a pretty low rate. The bad hallucinations that are really difficult to catch are the things that are misinterpretations of the law. Like, I read this case, or the model read this case, And it took a more, let's say, broad interpretation of what the case implied than what it did. Or it interpreted this statement from the judge as fact versus opinion. These kinds of things might change the way that the agent operates. And these are still hallucinations in a way. And these are the things that I think lead to bad results at the end of the day on our models. And I think this is an area where Thomson can really help. This is one of those things that's really hard to teach a model unless you're really applying a high level of human judgment and guidance to the model as to how it should interpret these things narrowly or broadly and why. And I think that's one of the areas that we're optimistic in terms of the future training of Thomson being able to make it better at.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":36,"time":"44:12","seconds":2652,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Season four of Chain of Thought is also presented by Walrus Memory. I spent much of this year talking to guests about agent memory, and we're all having challenges that go beyond simple session handoff. You explain your code base to one AI coding tool. You get it tuned to what you need. But when you look to hand off to a new model family, you find yourself having to confront the same memory and context problems. Walrus Memory is solving agent amnesia with a portable memory layer for agents. Walrus Memory takes your agent's memory anywhere you need it. The context your agent builds can be read back later, from a different app, in a different runtime, weeks out, and you set the rules for who reads and writes it. Python and TypeScript SDKs with native MCP support. I'm glad to have them behind Season 4 of Chain of Thought because this is a key problem confronting AI builders in 2026. Learn more at walrus.xyz/cot. Yeah, it's been interesting to look at some of the ways you are rebuilding Thomson Reuters' platform to align to Thomson and to these models. You know, CoCounsel, which we've mentioned a couple times, runs on the Claude Agent SDK. You were early development partners. I know that's been a big impact. I know you've rewritten the APIs for Westlaw, Practical Law, and other Areas of your platform would be more ergonomic for LLMs. How do these different changes you're making to the platform overall and some of the design partnerships you're doing inform the work moving forward?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":37,"time":"45:41","seconds":2741,"speaker":"Joel Hron","text":"I mean, I think they're critical. We've been phenomenally good partners with Anthropic, as well as OpenAI and Google throughout the last three years. And just by way of example, we formulated what we called the Trust and AI Alliance with those partners, as well as AWS and a few others. really getting to this point of particularly in areas of law and tax where being good is not good enough. We call this fiduciary-grade AI, where these professionals really have a duty to be correct. And that involves Models that are accurate, but knowing that models will not ever be 100% accurate, it really involves transparency and verifiability on the user's behalf. And how do the models represent their uncertainty to the users? And how do the applications themselves represent that uncertainty to the users? So we formulated this alliance with that group of people and partners, which has been extremely, I think, useful and beneficial. I think we continue to collaborate quite closely with those model providers in terms of early access programs to their models and the direction of travel that they're taking, sort of their training and development of their models, the development of their various different agent harnesses, and what works for us, what gaps we're seeing. And so I think those have continued to be extremely valuable in terms of the feedback that we're able to provide to them, but also the insight that they're able to give to us about the direction of travel for their products and how we might shape our products to really ride the exponential with them, rather than every time they release a new model to have to go re-architect your product. kind of build your product in a way that rides the curve that you think that they're on. And so that two-way conversation has been really, really valuable for that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":38,"time":"47:49","seconds":2869,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Joel, thank you so much for taking us through the release of Thomson. I am looking forward to sharing the paper with the audience and diving more in depth into it myself as well. I do want to close by asking a couple of questions of you that are more general, because I think what you are doing and what the Thomson Reuters team is doing to create a specialized model for your areas that can help your customers have More efficient answers can provide speed, can also save the company quite a lot of money. We've talked previously to leaders like Intercom slash FinAIs, Chief Scientist Fergal Reid talking about how much money they saved. switching from GPT to Qwen for some tasks. And you can check that episode out in our backlog. I think there's plenty of examples of this that are starting to come to fruition. But not everyone has made that switch yet. And for some things like coding tasks, most folks are still focused on frontier models. But what would be your advice to other CTOs and leaders who are thinking about when to use open models and are potentially considering training their own models off of their informational data?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":39,"time":"48:59","seconds":2939,"speaker":"Joel Hron","text":"I think my advice would be to focus that work on the things that you do best as a business. I think sometimes you can look at the open source capabilities and your eyes can kind of get a little bigger than your stomach and you can try to go eat the world. And the truth is, like, Anthropic OpenAI, like, SpaceX, Google, are making just, like, incredible strides on the general frontier. And, like, I don't know, like, I've thought for three years that at some point you would see it slow down, and I don't think it has. And so I think that benefits everybody. I don't think people should sort of, like, turn a blind eye to that. But there are some things for every business, if you really think about it hard enough, that you know better than anybody else in the world. And for those things, it's not reasonable to expect that a general purpose model or a general foundation lab is going to get better than you at that thing. If they do, then you're probably in trouble. So you need to ask yourself, what is the thing that I know better than anybody else in this world? And how can I encapsulate that intelligence into a model? And does it make sense to do so? And I think that was really the root of our work here was to say, we don't need to be the best at everything. We need to be the best at the things we arguably are the best at and know the best of anybody else in the world. And let's really try to focus and harness our development of intelligence in that direction. And I think if you do that, you can really build a compounding flywheel that benefits you over time and builds real durability in your company. It's not like we did talk about $450,000. That's a trivial amount of money. We probably spent somewhere around $40 million in the last several years between people costs and compute and development of these methods and things like that. It's not a trivial endeavor to go out and do this, but I would say if you stay focused on what matters most to you and what matters most to your customers, you can build a really good muscle around this and have it be a compounding flywheel for you for a long time.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":40,"time":"51:31","seconds":3091,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Fantastic. Joel, I really appreciate the conversation. Any closing thoughts that we didn't get to that you want to make sure to highlight?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":41,"time":"51:39","seconds":3099,"speaker":"Joel Hron","text":"Um, you know, I would say, you know, like probably first and foremost is this is not the end for us. I think like we see this model release as a pretty, um, as a pretty impactful moment for TR as a company for sure. And we're like really, really proud of what we've done so far and we're excited to launch it into CoCounsel. But I think, you know, what I personally am more excited about is sort of what I said just now is like, this is a compounding flywheel of benefit for us that I think will build on itself for years to come. And the more that we build the muscle of spinning that flywheel faster and faster with our internal experts, I think the better and better this can become. And I think that's what excites me the most is not sort of like the milestone we hit today, but sort of what that milestone implies about the next two or three or four or five that will knock down over the course of the next year. So excited about it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":42,"time":"52:40","seconds":3160,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Fantastic. I'm excited to see what's next for Thomson Reuters. And Joel, thank you for sharing this first look at the new Thomson model. What's the best place for everyone to go find out more information and learn more besides the link in the comments that we were certainly going to add?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":43,"time":"52:56","seconds":3176,"speaker":"Joel Hron","text":"Yeah, I'd say throw the links in the comments. Check out our website at thomsonreuters.com. I'll be posting some things on LinkedIn, so you can follow me on LinkedIn as well. And then we'll be publishing the technical paper here as well, which I think will be a great read.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":44,"time":"53:16","seconds":3196,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Fantastic. We will definitely have a link in the show notes and I can recommend Joel's LinkedIn myself as well. He's a good follow. Joel, great to see you. And for everyone who is listening, if you enjoyed this conversation, reach out to Joel and I, let us know what you enjoyed. Drop us a comment or maybe even leave a rating and review on the podcast, which always means the world to us. Like and subscribe, you know, all those good things. Thank you all for joining us at Joel. Thanks again.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron","episode":69,"guid":"85de8e95-f023-4ad1-93ce-a3b3bd3e6047","episodeTitle":"Thomson 1: The New $40M Legal AI Model | Thomson Reuters Joel Hron","publishedAt":"2026-08-24","segmentIndex":45,"time":"53:44","seconds":3224,"speaker":"Joel Hron","text":"Thanks for having me, Conor.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/69-thomson-1-the-new-40m-legal-ai-model-thomson-reuters-joel-hron/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"How could the average time to exploit be negative? The ability to weaponize knowledge about a vulnerability is now a commodity. Anybody with a cheap model, anybody with an open model can take the knowledge of a vulnerability and build a POC or build an exploit for it in minutes. You're only limited by token cost. The bottleneck is not the people finding bugs, but it's always a bottleneck to fix the bugs. I think AI is the first time we actually have a chance of speeding up the fixing side.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:31","seconds":31,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"For 20 years, security has run on a comfortable assumption that attackers and defenders found bugs at about the same speed, and you could triage the scary stuff, defer the low severity noise, and probably sleep at night sometimes. That assumption is dead in the era of LLMs. My guest today argues that time to exploit has gone negative, exploits land before vulnerability is ever disclosed. And as we've seen with recent hacks of Bitcoin wallets and so much more, that even very low priority vulnerabilities can be found and exploited. Frontier models can read code, they can reason across dependencies, and they can surface chain to zero days at machine speed. Humans are struggling to keep up, and we're going to talk about how to solve that. Welcome back to Chain of Thought, everyone. I am your host, Conor Bronsdon. If these conversations are useful to you, take a second to like this one and subscribe. Hit the bell, too, if you're on YouTube, so it actually tells you where the next episode drops. I appreciate you all. Over the last few months, a wave of AI-powered vulnerability discovery tools have hit the market, and the reaction from enterprise security leaders and from Washington, D.C. has been loud. Dan Lorenc thinks discovery is the part that's getting solved, and that the industry is now staring at a much harder problem, getting the fix deployed before the flaw goes public. To attack that, he has pulled together more than two dozen companies from JP Morgan, Cloudflare, Cisco, and Kyndryl, who we've previously talked to, under a new coalition. Dan is the co-founder and CEO of Chainguard, but before that, he spent years at Google building the backbone of software supply chain security, created Sigstore, and in June, his team launched Athena, a coalition built for the era where AI finds vulnerabilities faster than maintainers can patch them. Dan, great to see you. Welcome to Chain of Thought.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":2,"time":"2:16","seconds":136,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"Thanks for having me on. And great, scary intro, yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":3,"time":"2:22","seconds":142,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, I'm glad you enjoyed it. I do find that this topic can be a little scary for folks, and I'm hoping you can both level with us on some of the details, but also maybe give us some cause for not just alarm, but for positive thinking here. So we'll convert to that. But before we jump in, I do want to say a quick thank you to our presenting sponsors for season four of Chain of Thought. Thank you to our presenting sponsors for season four and this episode, Walrus Memory. You'll hear how they are solving and memory challenges with portable, verifiable memory. throughout the season, and Svix, which provide secure and enterprise-ready webhooks as a service. I'm excited to contribute to both their open-source codebases and share more about them as the season progresses. Check out Walrus Memory at walrus.xyz/cot and get $12,000 in credits for qualified startups at link.svix.com/cot.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-2-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":4,"time":"3:19","seconds":199,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"[OVERLAP] And now let's dive into our conversation.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-2-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":5,"time":"3:21","seconds":201,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"But Dan, let's talk about this vulnerability landscape and how it has changed. You've been making a version of this argument since at least the spring, and the market has, I think, moved fast to recognize that you're right about this. What does the time to exploit has gone negative actually mean for how teens should defend their software today?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":6,"time":"3:42","seconds":222,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"Yeah, that's not my data, right? This is coming from a couple of independent reports from Mandiant, from CrowdStrike, from a couple of these other vendors that are centered around vulnerability detection and response, and this is what they're seeing. It's a weird stat, so I like to kind of unpack it and at least give my theory on how that could happen. How could the average time to exploit be negative? You know, we've had zero days forever. Zero day is something that's exploited before it's disclosed. And so we've always had a category of them that are exploited before they're disclosed. But then there's a big fat tail on the other side of that balancing out the average of things that are disclosed and never exploited, or things that are disclosed and exploited years later. That's the part that's been squeezed, I think. You know, the ability to weaponize knowledge about a vulnerability is now a commodity. Anybody with a cheap model, anybody with an open model can take the knowledge of a vulnerability and build a POC or build an exploit for it in minutes. You're only limited by token cost. And so gone are the days of, you know, 270 days or that kind of thing for people crawling through the massive backlog of known vulnerabilities to pick the ones that they're going to exploit and exploit them 180 days or 270 days later. If it's going to be exploited, it's going to be exploited in weeks. And so that part shrinks down and then there's this massive swath of zero days on the other side and that's how averages work. The average shifts negative, which sounds crazy. Um, but really what it means is everyone has to go faster, uh, all the time. Um, AI is out there. AI is allowing everyone to go fast. And if defenders don't pick it up at the same speed and figure out how to modernize and, uh, decrease their patch cycles, uh, to something that fits into one of these exploit windows, then you're just kind of leaving the front door open.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":7,"time":"5:27","seconds":327,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, I, I have to say this is fairly concerning, right? We've seen","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-4-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":8,"time":"5:32","seconds":332,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-4-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":9,"time":"5:32","seconds":332,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] the first autonomous AI attacks. We're seeing open and Anthropic talk about their models basically doing felonies with cybersecurity while they're.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-4-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":10,"time":"5:43","seconds":343,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"[OVERLAP] It was a weird weekend. Everyone was bragging","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-4-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":11,"time":"5:44","seconds":344,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-4-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":12,"time":"5:45","seconds":345,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"[OVERLAP] about how many crimes their models had committed when they weren't looking.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-4-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":13,"time":"5:49","seconds":349,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I think my favorite tweet about it was this joking felony bunch chart. People started to post. So, I mean, this is a new era. It's a new world. How do people need to react to this? What do we need to do differently in this new reality?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":14,"time":"6:04","seconds":364,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"Yeah, I think there's a couple new realities, right? Hitting at once. And one of them is that people hadn't really been keeping up with vulnerability patching to begin with, right? Everyone knew you had to do it. No one really did it at scale. No one really did the greatest job at it that they should have been. Um, and that was okay for a while, um, because attacking, uh, infrastructure, hacking networks, that kind of thing. Um, there weren't that many bad people in the world. And, uh, so we had a couple of different bottlenecks there kind of all at the same time. One was that the number of interested parties to actually go and carry out these attacks wasn't that high. Um, and there were pretty sophisticated attacks, even the simplest ones. Um, and so even if you weren't doing the best job, um, you were probably able to sleep at night. You probably weren't going to get breached, that kind of thing. Um, AI has, uh, democratized in a bad way, I would say, you know, the ability to carry out some of these attacks. Um, it's not, uh, you know, weeks of research, months of learning how to do these kinds of things, uh, years and years of training to be able to do this now. Um, anybody with basic commute, computer for fairity and that kind of thing, If you get your hands on a model that doesn't have restrictions, can do this. And so the supply side of people with bad intent that are capable of doing bad things has gone up dramatically. And so that's one reality. And the other reality is that now there are a lot more known vulnerabilities out there and a lot more holes for people to poke through at the same time. So what was working before isn't going to keep working because it wasn't even really working before. You were just going by the fact that there weren't that many bad people around that could do basic kind of hacking like this. And now, even if you were at the top of your game and keeping up with all the vulnerabilities and stuff that you were supposed to be doing, that's not going to work anymore either. So there's kind of like a big massive tech debt payoff that has to happen just for the first fact here, which is that they're tearing out of taxes a lot easier. And then a massive change in the way we all build software and deploy software, I think to deal with the second one, which is that there are way more bugs in the software than anyone realized and a lot more of them are dangerous than anyone realized. So even if you get on that treadmill, we always talk about, you know, patching being a treadmill, you're never done. Software ages like milk, not wine. You know, all of these different analogies. That's not going to be enough either in the future. And kind of the combination of those two factors are terrifying people.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":15,"time":"8:36","seconds":516,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, it feels like A, the speed with which vulnerabilities can be found has really broken these security paradigms. And then secondly, how good models are at vulnerability chaining has really just completely rewritten how we have to think about defense for all the code we're developing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":16,"time":"8:55","seconds":535,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, the chaining piece, it's important. I think it's also misunderstood in a lot of cases, right? Like if you took some commodity cloud scanner, any one of these things that looked up known vulnerabilities, you mentioned it before. Yeah, you've had to triage away the lows and the mediums and you deal with the highs and the criticals. And those scans would come back with, across a large enterprise, millions of results, right? Like these are not small numbers. And these models don't just go around picking 17 random lows and mediums and then saying, got you. You know, it's a lot lower level, it's a lot finer grained things that they're noticing that maybe didn't even have a vulnerability filed about them in the past. The analogy and story I like to use to kind of explain what these models are finding and what they're doing is actually, it's closer to this blog post from the Google Project Zero team a while ago, I think it was 2022. But one engineer at Google Project Zero, who are some of the best security researchers in the world, Spent six months during the pandemic with an iPhone, a couple debugging tools, and a computer. And that was it. And basically built a zero-click radio transmittable remote code execution full root takeover exploit. Where the demo was you press a button on an iPhone, it immediately takes over every iPhone in radio distance and can spread. Um, you know, worst case scenario. And it's an incredible blog because it's kind of, it reads like a daily journal of like, all right, here's what I did. Plugged in the iPhone today, played around with this system, found something that looked kind of weird. Probably never would have like been a vulnerability by itself, but found something that looked kind of weird. Kept poking, went down this chain of ideas and got stuck and then came back up and tried a different direction until eventually they had a complete root takeover. So it is kind of that chaining and that long context window and the ability to think in abstract for a very long period of time and try a lot of different ideas that's letting the models do this chaining. It's chaining a bunch of very tiny flaws into something that is a real working exploit because that's the objective you give these models. It's not like a random lottery number where you just stick your hand in and pull out a CVE from six years ago that someone forgot to patch.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-7-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":17,"time":"11:01","seconds":661,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] There is a silver lining to all of this, though, which is that while attackers now have access to these capabilities, we have new capabilities for defenders as well. And I know that's been part of the approach that Chainguard is taking with Athena and everything","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-7-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":18,"time":"11:15","seconds":675,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-7-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":19,"time":"11:15","seconds":675,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] else you're doing. Can you tell us a bit about how you're responding and the bets you're placing around fixing AI discovery vulnerabilities with a coalition instead of a single vendor approach?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-7-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":20,"time":"11:26","seconds":686,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"well luckily there are a lot of people with these tools and Anthropic and OpenAI both taking similar approaches, but to give these tools that are good at vulnerability discovery to defenders first. And they are all spending a lot of tokens and a lot of time scanning and looking for exploits in the software that they build and use. Now we sit in open source software, which is a large area of software, but it's still a subset. Open source by stats are anywhere from 90 to 95% of any modern application by line of code, but everyone is using kind of the same open source at the end of the day. But when these folks point these models at their applications, it'll find vulnerabilities in their first-party code, but it'll also find vulnerabilities in the third-party code, and often it's chained between the two. And the only way we as an industry can, you know, combat that whole terrifying stat around the mean time to exploit being negative is to try to get the mean time to remediate even further negative, or even negativer. And so these folks, and you can see it as well on Anthropic's website on the Glasswing Transparency Tracker, But they've accumulated massive databases of possible chainable exploitable vulnerabilities that are just sitting there and haven't been disclosed yet. Now attackers are probably racing everyone to and scanning the same things and finding a lot of these same ones. But it's a very large pit to be scanning in. And the whole approach here is how many of these can we patch or remediate and get to as much of the industry as possible before they do become exploited. And at this scale, and by getting enough people involved, I think we have a decent chance of changing the numbers pretty significantly here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":21,"time":"13:07","seconds":787,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So I know in the last month that Athena, the coalition that you have built to help solve this challenge, has processed more than 40,000 AI discovered findings. I'm sure it's gonna be more than that by the time this episode comes out. What happens when a member submits a finding to a fix actually landing upstream? What's the process here?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":22,"time":"13:27","seconds":807,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"Yeah, there's a lot of work in between, right? Because these findings that people submit, it's not one individual vulnerability, right? You know, a lot of these are, you know, full exploit chains or a full report from a model. The basic prompting sequence to get really good results out of these models is you give it a full running application in a sandbox or something like that. You give it debugging tools, you give it access to the source code, and you say, you know, just break this app, or bypass the auth, or get into this database. Very simple prompting, but you give it enough tools to actually be able to poke around and find issues. And then, you know, one of these submissions is then a whole report of here's what I did, here were the different flaws I found, or exploited, or misconfigurations to get to that objective. And in that case, it'll find a whole bunch of different paths. So every one of those could be many vulnerabilities inside of it at the end of the day. Any one of them might have been enough to stop that chain, but if you ran it again and only fixed that one, it probably would have found a different chain. So there's a lot of work to go validate, parse, separate these things into unique, patchable pieces of software. And then there's a lot of de-duping after that too, because if you get a hundred of these on the same application, it might not be a hundred different unique things, right? It might be, it might de-dupe down to something a little more manageable. So in some cases it's a lot, in other cases it collapses. But that 40,000 number isn't, you know, directly comparable to something like the National Vulnerability Database or something. From there, yeah, you break it down into individual things that can be fixed in different pieces of software. And then we try to fix them. In a lot of cases they can be fixed, in other cases they can't be fixed because it's just inherent issues with the software where to fix it you would have to break or change the functionality of the software in so big of a way that it's probably easier to upgrade it away or just get rid of it from your stack than to try to patch it in place. So we do that. At the same time, we also look around in the history of that software, right? Because when you find something this way, where it's a real running application, that application is using hundreds of different dependencies, probably random versions throughout the history of time. It's impossible to be on the latest version of everything at all times. Even if you try that yourself, you might have an indirect dependency, right? The latest version of a dependency you have might be on a version five years old of something else, right? The whole world is not upgrading everything overnight, every single night. And so you get this report and we go back in time and see how long ago this vulnerability was first introduced and we go forward in time too and see if it's still present at the latest version. A lot of these vulnerabilities are not still present at the latest version. And it's great in some ways that software is getting more secure over time, but it's also this deeper problem with the way all of the vulnerability information in the world works, where if it's not present at the latest version, and there's no vulnerability filed, you can't even really go get one filed today. The vulnerability databases really only deal with things that are vulnerable at the latest version. And most hosts rely on vulnerability signals to determine when to upgrade. And so there's whole separate paths of how Disclosure works for things where you can't go get a CVE file because it would immediately be rejected as unsupported when assigned or something like this. So there's a lot of different flows in this system. Open source projects as well aren't going to take a fix for a three or four year old version. They're just going to say upgrade, right? And some of these were fixed and no one filed a vulnerability, but they were fixed intentionally. Others are just no longer there because the code has been refactored or upgraded in other ways or entire functionality deleted. So there's not even really a direct fix for the project or anything that you can go and copy from. So that fixing process is also complicated. But then after the fix has been published and people have tested it, and it is something that could be upstream because it's still present in the latest version, then we start that process. And that's also not simple, right? When you're looking at the long tail of open source, trying to find the email addresses for people to even contact them and like, you know, you might have something is a massive challenge on its own.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":23,"time":"17:30","seconds":1050,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, I mean, just thinking about this, it's clear how many challenges immediately present themselves, and I'm sure there are more that we're not even diving into. One of which I know is that, you know, you're using an encrypted portal for each submitter, and then they get to set their own embargo terms for these vulnerabilities. So I'm sure there's a bunch of management that has to happen around, okay, when are we publishing these findings? What's the clock on this? How do we manage all that?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-10-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":24,"time":"17:56","seconds":1076,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-10-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":25,"time":"17:56","seconds":1076,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I'm curious, are you using, you know, security agents to support that? And are they managing this process for you? Or what's the internal AI tooling for the defenders look like?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-10-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":26,"time":"18:06","seconds":1086,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, we have agents, a lot of models, a lot of agentic loops all over the place for it. From that first intake to the rest of it, we try to have as few human eyes on it as possible. The more people looking at these things, downloading them to random laptops, you run a lot of other risks just doing things that way. And so the system's designed to be as hands-off as possible. The models have ways to escalate and get help for people. Like when they find one of those cases where, hey, to fix this, we're going to break this major functionality. What do we do? Should we fix it or should we just leave it there and deal with the fallout that way? So there's a lot of these case by case things where you can't go train a model on it because the human doesn't even know what to do until you look at one of these and go chat with enough people. But the whole system is designed to be as few eyes on it as possible throughout the operation.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-10-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":27,"time":"18:57","seconds":1137,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, to your point, we've made discovery really easy. We have to solve the remediation problem","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-10-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":28,"time":"19:01","seconds":1141,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-10-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":29,"time":"19:01","seconds":1141,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] though, and...","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-10-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":30,"time":"19:03","seconds":1143,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"And this isn't, I think there's a pretty good parallel here. This isn't the first time it's happened. You know, fuzzing is another technique for computers to using random numbers, but a whole different way of doing this, but to find bugs in software. And fuzzing has been around for decades and decades, and fuzzing techniques have gotten better over time. But that approach, you basically take a computer program, write a little harness around it, and send random inputs in and see if any of them cause a crash, and see if those crashes after look like they were due to a security incident. And this software has been around forever and it's still running at scale. Google runs this massive program called OSS Fuzz, where they're just constantly slamming random numbers into programs and looking for crashes. Once you have one of those crashes, you can generally figure out why it caused that behavior. But in the Linux kernel and a bunch of other critical projects, fuzzing has been outpacing remediation for a decade already. It's just one of these cases where the bottleneck is not the people finding bugs, but it's always the bottleneck to fix the bugs. I think AI is the first time we actually have a chance of speeding up the fixing side. You can't just have, I think the alternative in fuzzing would be the whole monkeys randomly pressing keys on a keyboard thing to generate a fix. If you have enough of them pounding the keys long enough, I'm sure a valid patch would come out.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":31,"time":"20:22","seconds":1222,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, I sometimes feel like one of those monkeys, I have to admit. I'd love to get your advice on this. So I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":32,"time":"20:31","seconds":1231,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"am not managing any enterprise projects right now, but I manage several smaller open source projects. How should I be thinking about security for my personal tooling and things that I'm building today versus how should, you know, an enterprise CISO or security leader be thinking about security on their own?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":33,"time":"20:50","seconds":1250,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"Yeah, it's the same thing just at scale. It's basics. It's nothing we haven't really known about in the past. You have to be able to upgrade everything in any moment in time. Any one of your dependencies have a plan to upgrade it if a patch comes out tomorrow. Just imagine what happened during Log4j and then go make a list of every dependency you have and kind of game plan it out. What would happen if there was a Log4j here tomorrow? Because that's kind of the world we're gonna be in. And if you do that thought exercise, a bunch of secondary things start to pop into your head of how do we automate this? Or how do we trim a lot of these so that we don't even have to worry about updating them? Do we really need 17 different database drivers? Maybe we could all settle on one. So reduce the tag surface, reducing the number of dependencies to the things you really need and centralizing around those. And then automating as much of it as possible. So these things, as these things become routine, you're not calling in the whole team all weekend like we all had to do during Log4j.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":34,"time":"21:47","seconds":1307,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"And I guess, yeah, if you're managing an open source project, uh, your role in that is even more central because a lot of these dependencies get picked up from dependencies. And the more trimming you can do with that layer, the more of an outsize impact you can have, because then it helps all of your customers and all of your users.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":35,"time":"22:02","seconds":1322,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Season 4 of Chain of Thought is delivered by Svix. We spend a lot of time talking about what agents need in production, and one of the least glamorous answers is events. Your customers want agent workflows that react to things happening inside your system, which means your API needs webhooks that actually work. not just a post request and a prayer, retries, ordering, idempotency, replay protection. Svix does that as a service, and they wrote standard webhooks, the spec that Anthropic, OpenAI, and Google bailed against. If your API doesn't have reliable webhooks, that's turning into a lost deal. Join Brex, Drata, Daytona, and many others on Svix. Get started at link.svix.com slash c-o-t or go to the show notes to grab the link. Qualified startups will get $12,000 in credits, $50,000 for YC companies. I can't recommend Svix enough. I'm a huge fan of their open source project. I've actually contributed a bit myself and they're so easy to integrate with. I think you'll really enjoy it. Check out Svix at link.svix.com slash C O T. Yeah. Crucially, as you mentioned around being able to contact people who are maintaining open source bits of code, we've all seen the XKCD of this massive amount of machinery supported by this one little thing that some dad built at some point. And they may not be on the hook to continue to maintain that over the years. They may have moved on other things. So, but we have to assume that there's someone on the other end to accept the patch, whether or not that's true. How can we handle it when there are open source projects that don't have a reachable maintainer? How do you approach fixes in those situations?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":36,"time":"23:49","seconds":1429,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"Yeah, and so open source is great for a lot of reasons here too. But I have to go back to the Log4J example again. Log4J was an open source success story, right, if you look at it. It was maintained by a small number of people, widely used everywhere. Not to joke, but it was the first interplanetary software vulnerability. A couple of months before it happened, NASA had tweeted that Log4J was running on a Mars rover with a picture when the Mars rover landed or something like that, right? That's how ubiquitous that software was. It was just maintained by a few people. When it got reported, they got fixes out in days. It's that downstream side of taking those updates, knowing where it's running, and knowing where to do updates that took months to years. And there's still organizations out there running vulnerable versions of Log4j in the end.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":37,"time":"24:35","seconds":1475,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"But you have to step back, too, and kind of remember what open source is, because that governs a lot of the paths here in these cases. But for a maintainer, there's no guarantee, no promise, you're not under any burden to ever deal with a security loaner really. You're putting software on the internet, that is now open source. You might put a new version out tomorrow, you might not. You have no guarantee, you have no burden to do this on behalf of anyone. But to me, in terms of projects, what I like to tell people to do is just stay true to your intentions. Do you plan on dealing with vulnerabilities? If you do, tell people how. Otherwise, they're going to be all over your GitHub, whether you want them there or not, or all over Hacker News or Twitter. But if you don't plan on it, then you have to be ready for people to fork your project and start to merge their own patches. So that is one of the freedoms of open source. Open source is a licensed category that guarantees a few things. But one of them is the freedom to fork the code. And if you put it out there and somebody grabbed a copy of it, found something, and you said, no, I don't want to fix this vulnerability, then they're probably going to take that escape hatch. And that's fine. That's how open source always works. But I think we're going to start seeing a lot more of that because it's going to happen. It's going to start happening quicker and quicker. And also on the flip side, the economics of maintaining a fork have dramatically changed. Just because you can fork doesn't mean it always made sense. Most projects that are doing well today have avoided forks because they're moving so fast. The cost of maintaining a fork for anybody that wanted to over a long period of time just kind of grows forever to the point that it makes more sense to send contributions back into the open source projects. You're not maintaining that fork over time. But the cost of doing that has gone down dramatically. Agents can do a lot of that work. It's relasing, it's merge conflicts, you know, the things that developers absolutely hate doing. But that work, agents are pretty good at. And so I think, you know, state your intentions. Say if you want to deal with vulnerabilities, what your plan is for them. For the most part, researchers will try to work with you on it. But if you don't want to do that, that's fine too. No one is going to make you. But be ready for folks of your project to start to appear.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":38,"time":"26:43","seconds":1603,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I deeply resonate with your point about merge conflicts,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":39,"time":"26:47","seconds":1607,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"[OVERLAP] That","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-19-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":40,"time":"26:47","seconds":1607,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] something","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-19-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":41,"time":"26:47","seconds":1607,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"[OVERLAP] sucker.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-19-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":42,"time":"26:47","seconds":1607,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] that I have 100% offloaded to my coding agents and just do not think about anymore. I'm just like, yeah, solve us, please. I don't want to, please. Not my problem anymore. And to your point, we have the capability now of just having an agent watching a repo at all times. And it can just solve these minor pieces. It can ensure that your fork is successful, that it's healthy. And I think this is going to become very normalized, if not already is being normalized. I wonder, though, what other changes you expect to see in how open source projects are maintaining themselves and thinking about security As we go into this era where, at least I expect, we are going to have coding agents available widely, cheaply, and all over the place.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-19-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":43,"time":"27:40","seconds":1660,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"Yeah. I think, you know, coming back to that opening, one is people have to pay off a lot of tech debt. And two, we have to figure out how to get off of this treadmill. And I think, again, it's a new world. And, you know, I think a lot of the ways we thought about software in the past around things like backwards compatibility and API compatibility and stuff like that, that for good reason, slowed down a lot of change in software. I think we should start to rethink some of those assumptions because these same tools that find vulnerabilities are also really good at upgrading software and they're really good at changing syntax and changing API patterns across code bases. And when we dig into some of these vulnerabilities, like these classes I was telling you about before, you know, one really common pattern that we've seen, especially in Java, is after Log4j, a lot of Java projects just went and deleted those dangerous portions of the code base that were exploited in Log4j. You know, they didn't know there was a vulnerability there, but they were like, oh yeah, maybe we shouldn't have had all of that crazy remote JNDI stuff in here. This seems like a taking timeout. Let's just go delete that. I think we're going to start to see more and more cleanups like this of projects just removing legacy behavior, removing things that might be dangerous in the future, removing entire classes of things like that, just to start to change the slope of the vulnerability discovery curve. And these are things you might have been scared to do in the past because it's going to break a bunch of stuff. Everyone's going to complain when they have to do these upgrades. But it's either going to be complaining about having to do upgrades and complaining about the syntax changing or sitting on this treadmill that's just speeding up forever and ever.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":44,"time":"29:16","seconds":1756,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, the treadmill is a really interesting point because I, I kind of struggle to see how we get off it in the short term.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":45,"time":"29:25","seconds":1765,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":46,"time":"29:27","seconds":1767,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Is there a redesign that we need to do to just simply change entirely how we approach security? Like what's the way off this treadmill?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":47,"time":"29:35","seconds":1775,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"Yeah, I don't know if there's ever a way off, but I think we can slow it down. And it's how securities works forever. I don't have a magic answer right now, but the security industry has always done this. If you go back 10 years or so, the vulnerability class that was everywhere is cross-site scripting, right? Remember like the early days of social media, you had to be careful not to click the wrong link. Otherwise, it would automatically DM everyone on Facebook. Um, that kind of thing. Um, and it was just almost impossible to write JavaScript code that wasn't susceptible to it because it was just insecure by design. Um, and nobody knew this was possible. Somebody figured it out and it was like, Oh wow. Every website anywhere, if you click the wrong link, like you were completely hacked. And then eventually figure out ways to make frameworks and libraries that are just basically immune to cross-site scripting and some changes in the browser and that kind of thing. And you rarely ever hear about that anymore. But we went from like, you know, vulnerabilities being found every day for bug bounties to once or twice a year now. And it's that, you know, it's looking for classes of vulnerabilities, figuring out ways to work together, work across projects, get new technologies built to make those entire classes impossible. And then rewriting software to use that and upgrading software to use that quickly. But that's how we slow the treadmill down.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":48,"time":"30:49","seconds":1849,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"As we think about this era of agents everywhere, code is cheap, how do we need to think about designing our agent infrastructure with security in mind? So great, we're solving the treadmill, but what about from the very start as rebellious agents?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":49,"time":"31:08","seconds":1868,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, it is super timely right now with all of the reports of the agents going rogue and hacking systems over the weekend and planting malware on PyPI to break into other systems and stuff. But yeah, agents, they're powerful, right? And the power comes in from the tool calling layer, right? They have as much power as you give them in a tool. An agent by itself, it's just random numbers outputting text. Text can't really do much. But when you start to bolt on tools, they give them, hey, access to the internet or access to run commands on a laptop. You have to expect that these systems are going to use those in unpredictable ways, because, again, they're random number generators at the start. You can never fully control what one of these agents is going to do. And so it's nothing magical again though, but it's defense in depth, it's constraining what the agents have access to, not just running them as root on your laptop. I know I think the Gemini CLI called it the YOLO mode flag, that kind of thing. It's one thing on a laptop. It's a completely different thing when you put this into a production system and you're running too many of them to watch as a person. And so putting that in at the start, the bare minimum permissions they need to do their job, sandboxing them as heavily as you can, and then sandbox the scarier ones even more because they might find a breakout of that sandbox in order to get their job done. But we see it a lot. Agents are very persistent, which is a pro and a con. In this case, with Athena and Apache, I was telling you about. If you just tell the agent, patch this and don't introduce any backwards incompatibilities, it'll run for 24 hours if you let it trying to do that. Even if that's impossible, these things will keep trying, they'll keep trying. And so when you start telling them to do these dangerous kind of cyber security-ish tasks of like find a vulnerability, and after three or four hours it can't find one, and it finds a different vulnerability in the sandboxing layer you built, to go do something that it's been trying to do that whole time, you have to expect that that stuff is going to happen. And defense in depth is really the only way to notice it when it does.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-25-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":50,"time":"33:13","seconds":1993,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] you","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-25-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":51,"time":"34:04","seconds":2044,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I want to ask several more things about","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-25-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":52,"time":"34:06","seconds":2046,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"[OVERLAP] Sure.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-25-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":53,"time":"34:07","seconds":2047,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] your viewpoint on agent infrastructure and how you're coding today, particularly because I saw that on your LinkedIn,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-25-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":54,"time":"34:13","seconds":2053,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"[OVERLAP] I'll call you","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-25-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":55,"time":"34:13","seconds":2053,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] you","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-25-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":56,"time":"34:14","seconds":2054,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"[OVERLAP] right","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-25-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":57,"time":"34:14","seconds":2054,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] list","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-25-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":58,"time":"34:14","seconds":2054,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"[OVERLAP] now.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-25-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":59,"time":"34:14","seconds":2054,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] yourself","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-25-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":60,"time":"34:14","seconds":2054,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"[OVERLAP] Can you","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-25-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":61,"time":"34:14","seconds":2054,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] as","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-25-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":62,"time":"34:14","seconds":2054,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"[OVERLAP] tell?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-25-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":63,"time":"34:14","seconds":2054,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] having. Yeah, I see that you listed yourself as having been an intern in Gas Town, so","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-25-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":64,"time":"34:20","seconds":2060,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-25-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":65,"time":"34:21","seconds":2061,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I very much want to ask your thoughts on that. But before I do, I think I would be remiss to not ask about the other side of this equation around security, which is the regulatory side. There have","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":66,"time":"34:30","seconds":2070,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-26-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":67,"time":"34:30","seconds":2070,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] been major discussions there. What's your take on the right approach?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-26-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":68,"time":"34:35","seconds":2075,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"Yeah, and there's a bunch of different regulatory kind of conversations going on here across the board. In this era, you know, there's open source itself, which is constantly the topic of regulatory pressure. A few years ago, Europe, with the Cyber Resiliency Act, tried to place a burden on open source maintainers, and it kind of failed. But they were trying to use liability as a legal framework. Say, hey, if you put an open source project up on the internet, say you're just a random developer here in Arkansas or Nebraska or wherever that XKCD is, and some bank in Europe starts using that software, it gets breached as a result. They were going to place liability back on you, even though, you know, the very first clause in every open source license says this comes with no warranties. Use it at your own will. These conversations constantly happen. But the right place for that liability and the right place for that responsibility is the person that pulls it in and uses it, not the person that wrote it and put it out there. Um, then there's AI, uh, you know, there's a regulation around the frontier labs. You know, if they are actually building things that are, you know, close to the super weapons that vulnerability research or these other things, um, lots of conversation around what security they should operate under themselves. Um, you know, if you're, uh, building chemical weapons in your backyard, uh, that's probably not good for the neighbors around you. Right. And so we have processes and regulatory frameworks for how you do that kind of dangerous weapons level research. And yeah, I think that's a particularly tricky one because the model providers have all been saying this for years, but no one really believes them. You know, you're like, it's a chatbot. You know, how could it hack me? That kind of thing. Until all of a sudden it's too late to really figure out what to do. Um, then there's open models and, uh, geopolitical economic, uh, incentives around all of this. Um, distillation attacks and that kind of thing. Um, it's going to be a very busy year for DC. I would say none of these are clear cuts. Uh, here's what we should do. And I don't fix everything cases.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":69,"time":"36:40","seconds":2200,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, it's especially interesting given, I think, the coalition we've seen form around open models and the concerns for many companies, frankly, that they're going to be cut out if they're not careful and if open source isn't supported. And yet there's this whole geopolitical back and forth, as you point out, particularly between China and the U.S. around security capabilities and more.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":70,"time":"37:01","seconds":2221,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"You know, I think open models are great. Being able to download these things, run them on your own hardware is great. I think what we've learned though is the economic incentives around it just don't make sense for any standalone company to build these open models anymore. They cost so much to train and release that you can't really go recoup that cost unless you have some other motive around why you're doing that to build and release that open model. You know, at a couple million a training run, sure. At, you know, a couple hundred million a training run, the number of companies that can afford to write that off starts to drop, right? At billions and billions a training run, you're down to a couple of companies and governments. And it starts to really shift the equation here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":71,"time":"37:43","seconds":2263,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, I'm not certain that that is going to stay the way it currently is, though. I do think we are underestimating how much the economic model around both training and serving is going to rapidly change in the next couple of years. I mean, we've seen our assumptions already be off base in multiple areas, like A couple of years ago, people were saying, oh, you need the next generation of hardware. Old","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-29-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":72,"time":"38:07","seconds":2287,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"[OVERLAP] there","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-29-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":73,"time":"38:07","seconds":2287,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] generations, they're going to go out of fashion so quickly. And now we're realizing we need all this compute. And actually, this hardware is very valuable because we can serve","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-29-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":74,"time":"38:16","seconds":2296,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"[OVERLAP] are","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-29-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":75,"time":"38:16","seconds":2296,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"in different ways and we can actually spread models out. And we've made a lot of innovations on how we serve and how we train and how we fine tune. And I wonder if we're going to see similar research breakthroughs that flip some of the economic models and make larger open source models more viable without distillation.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":76,"time":"38:36","seconds":2316,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"Yeah. Um, and then there's just the question of, is the front gear pace going to be moving so fast that putting $10 billion in is always going to get you a better result than someone that didn't put $10 in, even with all of those techniques. We don't know. Um, yeah. And then maybe we'll just all have nuclear fusion reactors under our houses, running our own, uh, training and inference labs and, uh, it'll be great.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":77,"time":"38:58","seconds":2338,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I mean, I would love to have them, but I probably don't have the infra to support them. My wife might have a few things to say about what's in the garage. So we'll see where we get to. It's going to be a very exciting time. I think despite the concerns we've brought up, this is one of the most exciting times, maybe the most exciting time ever in computing, because so much is changing and we are just seeing this incredible paradigm shift. And so it's so fun to lean in in this moment, I feel like.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":78,"time":"39:26","seconds":2366,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"It's the most fun time to be building software. I think, um, I don't know how much longer we're going to have before the robots are just doing it all for us. Um, but yeah, I, they've just, the models have gotten so good to the point where they're fast and the quality of the code is better than the quality of what a person would write in almost all cases. And so you're not limited by typing. You're not limited by compilers. You're just limited by, you know, the ideas and the designs and the things you can think of. Uh, and that's, that's exhilarating, honestly.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":79,"time":"39:55","seconds":2395,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I would love to learn a bit about your personal approach to this. I know, you know, I mentioned back in January, you had already put yourself jokingly, sort of, as the assistant to the mayor of Gas Town","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":80,"time":"40:05","seconds":2405,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-34-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":81,"time":"40:05","seconds":2405,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] and the team of agents at polecats. What's your approach today? How have you kind of evolved on that?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-34-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":82,"time":"40:09","seconds":2409,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"I've simplified a lot. Yeah. I got Gas Town going, uh, you know, there was that week when the blog came out and, you know, I've known Steve for years. Uh, I love him. Uh, but the blog came out and it was just like, what am I reading? Is this fiction? Is this reality? And there was a GitHub repo. Um, and they're all means everywhere. Everyone was talking about Gas Town and I was like, all right, it's Saturday afternoon. Let me actually try to get this thing going. And I'd been a super active Claude Code user for a year, but I hadn't really changed much in the way I was using it. And I got it up and it was, it was crazy. Like, yeah, you were talking to the mayor. It was this crazy tmux user interface. I'd remember all the tmux shortcuts and there were pull cats and there was a refinery and it was all just kind of working. And it was the first time since like, you know, the first release of Claude where I was like, oh, wow, this is actually way, way faster. I tried to describe it as like, why tell Claude what to do when you can tell Claude to tell Claude what to do, right? Um, like, uh, we do many things at once, all of this fun stuff. Uh, and then it completely self-disrupted. Um, it was this, uh, the design of it was this like almost, uh, crazy mess of self-mutating prompts where all of the components like eventually found where all of their prompts were living on disk and some little blip happened and they all tried to repair it and they just completely destroyed GAS TOWN. Um, but it was like an amazing four hour, uh, run. Um, and then I made my own slimmed down version of Gas Town and I called multi-Claude that I was just using every day for, you know, the next six months instead of regular Claude, I was just in there on multi-Claude. Um, where I kept like a couple of parts of Gas Town, the, the TMUX interface and the message passing, you know, kind of the, the wake loops around agents. And then Claude just kind of rolled enough of those features into Claude itself. The multi-agent loops got good and it's got a wake and notification system and stuff like that. But now I'm just back, I'm just the normie again. I'm just cranking out, I can keep a couple terminals open at once and just check on them every once in a while.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":83,"time":"42:06","seconds":2526,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, I have had a bit of a similar arc where I feel like I was trying to engineer the interactions a lot more. And now with the newer class of models, they're so good as team leads, they don't really need me to manage the agent orchestration, they just need me to suggest what to do. And I don't","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-35-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":84,"time":"42:23","seconds":2543,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-35-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":85,"time":"42:23","seconds":2543,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] know how long that's going","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-35-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":86,"time":"42:24","seconds":2544,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-35-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":87,"time":"42:24","seconds":2544,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-35-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":88,"time":"42:24","seconds":2544,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"[OVERLAP] They divide the work","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-35-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":89,"time":"42:25","seconds":2545,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] continue.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-35-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":90,"time":"42:25","seconds":2545,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"[OVERLAP] up when they should. They go to agents to minimize context when they should. Um, and yeah, the, the prompting, especially in the generation, uh, five class, Sonnet five, Opus five, Fable five, that kind of thing. The simpler, the prompting, the better again. Um, you know, you don't have to be crazy descriptive. Uh, you just tell them what to do and they figure it out.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-35-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":91,"time":"42:47","seconds":2567,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, one of the things I've been thinking about, I saw Boris Cherny from Anthropic mention this idea is paring back some of my established infrastructure harness. Like I have a several month old repo that is full of just session logs and memories. And I'm wondering if I've almost gummed up the works too much sometimes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":92,"time":"43:09","seconds":2589,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"Yeah, I hate the memory system. Yeah, just because of that, like the models add a lot of notes, but I change stuff constantly. I've got multiple branches. I find that always adds more confusion to future runs than anything, the memory part.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":93,"time":"43:24","seconds":2604,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Interesting. So yeah, how how are you managing memory at this point? Are you just letting the models handle it themselves? Do you have an established system you're approaching it with?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-37-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":94,"time":"43:31","seconds":2611,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"[OVERLAP] I feel like it's been getting worse. Like, you know, five times a day now I see it writing memories of things that I don't want it to remember. We were just trying out something crazy. I'm sure there's a setting to turn it off, but normally I just go through, like, the directory by myself.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-37-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":95,"time":"43:45","seconds":2625,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Interesting. Yeah. I, I took the opposite approach. I built my own memory repo that I force it to use. And then I have it check with me at the end of every session. I'm like, okay, great. I have an established regimen for, or discipline for how we call that a session. And it's can propose memories that I can then get to approve or say, Oh, adjust. But it does create overhead for me where I'm like, I know this is slowing me down a bit. So I'm curious to see how it goes long term.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-37-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":96,"time":"44:10","seconds":2650,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, whenever I'm in the web for writing and researching and stuff too, I have the memory feature turned off across all of these. It drove me crazy one day, I turned it off and I left it there. It was like writing a blog, I got a draft, I didn't like it, I opened up a new tab and started writing a blog and it was like, oh, you already wrote this and it just kept pulling from the one I didn't like that I just opened another tab.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-37-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":97,"time":"44:32","seconds":2672,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, I think I need to refactor and maybe just throw some stuff out to see what happens, if nothing else.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":98,"time":"44:40","seconds":2680,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Because I've built up such a corpus now where it's like, okay, I just need to try it with less and kind of see how that approaches things.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-38-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":99,"time":"44:47","seconds":2687,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah. Might be the, like a year ago when prompt engineering was a thing and there were all those Twitter and LinkedIn, uh, click clickbait posts of like, Oh, here's the workflow. You start with this prompt, which is like six pages long and.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-38-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":100,"time":"45:01","seconds":2701,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I've always thought prompt engineering was overrated. Yeah,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-38-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":101,"time":"45:04","seconds":2704,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"[OVERLAP] Copy that deep research. We'll copy that over here. And like the results are so much better. Everyone. Um, yeah, you don't need any of that anymore.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-38-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":102,"time":"45:12","seconds":2712,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I are you still using typing typically for prompts? Are you transitioning to more voice? What's what are you doing today?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-38-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":103,"time":"45:19","seconds":2719,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"[OVERLAP] I type. Yeah, I've never been a big fan of voice and any computer interactions, but I know a lot of people like it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-38-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":104,"time":"45:26","seconds":2726,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Now I'm with you on the typing. Honestly, it's just largely because I like listening to music while I code, so I don't really want to have to switch that off and turn voice on. I'll use voice occasionally if I really like. I'll use it on the go. Actually, I find more for mobile if I'm like, oh, I'm having a thought. Let me just throw this into an instance so we can get something started and I can pick it up later. That's where I find these voice more interesting.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":105,"time":"45:46","seconds":2746,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"This was fun. I'm glad we ended on a more exciting note than the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":106,"time":"45:51","seconds":2751,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-40-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":107,"time":"45:51","seconds":2751,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"[OVERLAP] terrifying start you gave us.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-40-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":108,"time":"45:53","seconds":2753,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Dan, do you have any closing thoughts for the audience or anything you didn't get to say you want to bring out?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":109,"time":"45:57","seconds":2757,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"Um, no, this is, uh, even when it's terrifying, it's still an exciting time to be in software and in security and, uh, just have fun riding the wave.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":110,"time":"46:07","seconds":2767,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Sometimes you might feel like you're drowning, but just get up, get back on the surfboard, and you're going to catch some cool waves for sure. Dan, it's been so fun talking to you. I really appreciate the wide ranging discussion. I appreciate the pros and cons. And thanks so much for coming on Chain of Thought. I think our listeners are really going to enjoy this episode. Where can folks go who are listening and want to check out Athena or check out Chain Guard or just follow you?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":111,"time":"46:29","seconds":2789,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"Yeah, uh, chainguard.dev is our site. That's where all this stuff is. I've got a good blog. I do a lot of writing there, um, or LinkedIn. Um, yeah, that's where I do most of my posting. Um, Dan L O R E N C. You should be able to find me.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":112,"time":"46:42","seconds":2802,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"amazing. Dan, thanks again for coming on the show. And for everyone who has made it through the entire episode, if you enjoyed Dan's conversation with us, make sure you are subscribed to our newsletter at chainofthought.show or newsletter.chainofthought.show for more episode extras. Dan, thanks again for joining us.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc","episode":68,"guid":"565a380c-39cb-4eb2-a4db-e247ad4dfb4a","episodeTitle":"Time to Exploit is Negative: AI Broke the Patch Cycle | Dan Lorenc, Chainguard","publishedAt":"2026-08-19","segmentIndex":113,"time":"46:59","seconds":2819,"speaker":"Dan Lorenc","text":"Yeah. Thank you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/68-time-to-exploit-is-negative-ai-broke-the-patch-cycle-dan-lorenc/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"It seems like everything gets refactored every two weeks. The way I think about it is agents are like teenagers. They are profoundly intelligent, extremely resourceful, have no fear of consequence. The reality is that you have to jump in and start experimenting right away. And if you don't, you will be left behind and be irrelevant.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:25","seconds":25,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Welcome to season four of Chain of Thought, the podcast about AI infrastructure and agents. I am your host, Conor Bronsdon. And joining me today is a returning fan favorite that many of you have requested we have back on the show. And that is Cisco President and Chief Product Officer Jeetu Patel. Jeetu, it is great to see you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":2,"time":"0:43","seconds":43,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"[OVERLAP] So good to see you, Conor. Season four, huh? You've gotten to the fourth season. That's amazing. Congrats.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-1-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":3,"time":"0:49","seconds":49,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, it's pretty wild actually to think about the fact that we, at this point, I think we have about 70 episodes in the can.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-1-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":4,"time":"0:57","seconds":57,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"Well, we just launched our, our pod on, um, uh, on Spotify and Apple and, um, YouTube and all of that. And it was largely for our internal product leaders who can actually talk to, um, our customers and partners and employees on what's happening. So, uh, I'm, I'm going to learn a lot from you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":5,"time":"1:18","seconds":78,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I look forward to chatting with you about it. I actually just checked out a recent episode you did around hyperscalers and Neo clouds that I think came out this morning as we're recording. I've been meaning to check out more of it, but that's the Cisco podcast network. Definitely check it out for a lot more from G2 and many others over at Cisco. And while we're on the topic, I do want to say a quick thank you to our presenting sponsors for season four of Chain of Thought. We'll be talking everything from agentic ops to physical infra for the AI era and much more this season. And it's thanks to Svix. We spend a lot of time talking about what agents need in production and Svix helps deliver billions of webhooks for startups in the Fortune 500. You'll hear a lot more about them in the coming months. G2, one of the big topics that has been extremely in the news the last few weeks has been open weight models and the push and pull around regulations, around which models are at the frontier, cost, And Cisco has been a major player in these discussions and one of the key figures behind the new OpenSecure AI alliance. Can you tell me a bit about your thinking around the open versus closed model discussion and where you see the industry going?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":6,"time":"2:26","seconds":146,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"Yeah, I think, look, it's a profoundly interesting time because it seems like everything gets refactored. every two weeks. And so all the assumptions you had about the industry actually change and then something else happens and something else happens, nothing else happens. So I think if you look at, um, what has developed over the course of the past few days, um, you know, China now has a frontier class model. Um, and, uh, you know, from moonshot giving K three and that model actually is an open weights model. that I think they've done a pretty good job of it, but they have had some distillation. And so there's a lot of debates around this. Is distillation good or bad? Should it be allowed? Uh, is open source something that should be, should Chinese open source be banned within the, uh, within the U S what is the implication of this for closed source models? Should us have its own open source model or not? Um, these are all kind of very meaty topics. And my, my highest level kind of, um, perspective on this is these are all extremely nuanced, um, complicated issues that don't have a binary answer that can be used for a headline for QuickBake, right? Like it's, it requires a fair amount of discussion. And what I, what I hope happens in, um, in the dialogue that we, we pursue as the market evolves is. Rather than jumping to what's right and what's wrong right away and actually taking the time to reason through what the game theory is and what are, what's a good and bad that happens as a result of it. So, so let's take, let's take a few of those kinds of, um, simulation exercises for us, right? So is open source good for the world? If you think about it, the, the, the models themselves. Um, I have three dimensions to them. There's intelligence, how much intelligence can be backed in the model, there's cost, and then there's control, right? People want the most amount of intelligence at the least amount of costs with the most amount of control, but not all three are equally important for every use case and task at all times. Sometimes you're willing to pay more for better intelligence. Sometimes you don't need top tier intelligence when you need to have something basic that gets done. Sometimes you need more control than even the other two, because it's very sensitive data. Um, the last 5% might not matter as much, but control really matters. And so those things need to be thought through and they have to be trade-offs that are made. And what ends up happening as these models get better and better and better is you also tend to keep pushing the greater frontier where. In some instances, uh, you do get better intelligence with better costs, with better control. Um, and that's a, that's a, you know, great thing when that happens. If we were to say, um, and I, I just want to give pros and cons. These are like, it's important because it's not like, Hey, this is my opinion. I just want to make sure that we all kind of analyze the situation. Well, if we were to say open source is a Chinese open source is something that we don't allow. What could happen? You could have the world. Um, still use Chinese models, but our cost of intelligence goes up. If we don't have a commensurate open source model within the U S that would not be good for the U S because your cost of intelligence would go up. Your amount of tokens you would spend for the same, same level of output would be higher than what the rest of the world would be. If everyone else were to use Chinese models and we weren't right. On the other hand, um, if you were to actually have, um, it not banned, you could have a model that could have some risk from a usage perspective that we don't know yet. And so these aren't like simple answers to get solved. And they actually require a complex game theory. And they might actually sometimes border into national security issues and border into things where you just have to think about this holistically rather than think about it in asylum. Um, the counter arguments also that get made. And, you know, I think if you would have actually, if you actually have open source models, start to disrupt closed source models, what ends up happening right now, frontier class models on our cost about three to $5 billion to go train right per model. That's an enormous amount of capital expenditure to go out and train a model. The only time that you can justify spending $3 to $5 billion to train a model is when you know that you can get the commensurate return from that model by actually selling that model and having at least a few fold increase in the revenue compared to what you ended up spending on the model. So if you spent $5 billion on the model, $20 to $30 billion in revenue is something that you have to have. And by the way, the half-life of these models keep shrinking, so they don't actually last that long. Within a matter of a few months, you have the next model coming out. Now, by the way, the nice part about that is, for someone who owns the models, they can distill from their own models, and so it actually becomes more efficient for them to get every single subsequent model built. But that's something to keep in mind, which is, oh, wow, if I don't create an incentive for these closed-source models to continue to keep investing in research, and we don't think we are at the peak of what these models should do, It is in all of our detriment if they don't continue to keep investing. And so as the business model might shift, and you might not just monetize the APIs for the models, you might actually need to then make more money from the app layer of the models, and you have to go further up the stack, and you might also make money from the infrastructure layer. So those are the two areas that might get monetized more. All of these things are not superbly clear in the market at this point in time. These are things that are being... are evolving and we're seeing what the effects of these are, but you don't know how this is going to pan out. And if anyone pretends to think that they know exactly how this is going to pan out, they're wrong. Because if you think about every company that's currently there, I bet you, Conor, at some point in time, you thought, Anthropic was toast. You thought OpenAI was toast. You thought Google was toast. You thought xAI was toast. The reality is all of them have done pretty well. But the way they've done well is one company comes out with something and surprises the market. A few months later, another company comes out and surprises the market again. And that's what keeps happening. And you keep progressing forward. So I do feel like that's an area that we have to all internalize and say, these are complex policies that need to be enacted. These are complex strategies that need to be done. And you have to have, there has to be a fair amount of game theory done before you know exactly what the right thing to do for America, for national security, for the private sector, for the world, for every individual citizen and consumer, so on and so forth.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":7,"time":"10:13","seconds":613,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, a couple different angles there I want to bring up because you brought up a lot of interesting points here. So, so one is the perspective piece. So the perspective of the United States versus, you know, another nation state in China or something else, obviously very different, but then the individual consumer versus the business organization perspective, very different on this too, because As an individual consumer, I'm just, right, I'm pro open weight models. I want access. I want to, you know, try things. But that may not be the case for a company that owns a frontier model, right? Because to your point, they want to capture value. And that's why we're seeing these interesting lobbying conversations, these interesting debates happen. Lots that we can unpack there. The other corollary here that you also alluded to is the fact that the value return on models is more compressed than it used to be. It used to be a model generation would last significantly longer, you'd be able to accrue more value out of it. Now, you may have more users today, so maybe you can actually realize more value and get more usage in a shorter time period, so maybe that's evening out. But I actually think we're seeing this interesting reversal where, to your point about the compute and infrastructure layer, Two years ago, people were saying, oh, you know, like you can't be using the last generation of compute. And now many of the chips that were bought two years ago are more valuable than ever. They're sticking around longer. We're able to leverage them in a variety of ways. And I think many people underestimated that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":8,"time":"11:38","seconds":698,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"[OVERLAP] And that might happen also in the models, by the way, because what you will have, the way to think about this is you might be a half life. And firstly, the time that it takes to go out and release something in the market is compressing. A new model might come out every three to four months. Okay. You might, my might've been eight, 12 to 18 months in the past. It might be three to four months now. Um, but for the degree of time that that remains the best model might be for a few months. And then after that, it actually starts to taper down, but you will still have a long tail and that might stick, stick around for a while because that might be a cheaper model and it might be a good model to go out and use, um, from a token, uh, from, from, uh, from a token economic standpoint. So the thing that you have to keep in mind right now is there are two factors. One is the cost of tokens tends to be pretty high. today compared to the commensurate value that those tokens always deliver in most enterprises. And that's not because the models aren't good enough. That's because the companies haven't really gotten good yet at extracting the most out of the models consistently across every use case. And so first, I always feel like you have to get familiar with something, then you have to get good with something, then you have to get efficient at something. We are still in the familiar to getting good phase. We're not in the efficient phase. So what happens right now is your cost of tokens is higher than the value that it actually emits out. And until that gets to equilibrium, you will actually continue to find a degree of risk where customers could pull back because they're like, hey, I can't afford this. This is too expensive for what I'm getting in return. And that's something that has to play into the calculus of how this market plays out. So what does that mean? What does the industry have to do? The industry has to continue to keep having the performance and the price per token go down. And it's actually price per token might eventually become a vanity metric because you might have the price per token go down, but the amount of tokens that an agent uses go up because they're long running agents. And so what you need to have is not just the price of price per token go down, but you have to have the price per unit of output and outcome go up. I mean, um, go, go, go down because once it, once that goes down, that's when your value increases and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-5-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":9,"time":"14:09","seconds":849,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] But to your point, that's extremely unevenly distributed right now because","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-5-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
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{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":13,"time":"14:13","seconds":853,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] teams are getting","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-5-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":14,"time":"14:13","seconds":853,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"[OVERLAP] distributed.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-5-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":15,"time":"14:14","seconds":854,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] a ton of ROI and others aren't.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-5-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":16,"time":"14:15","seconds":855,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"That's right. And by the way, your benchmarks and evals don't tell you the full story, which is the other thing that most people don't realize. It's like, okay, if a model does well on one eval, that doesn't mean the model is going to do well in your environment. It just means it does well in that eval for which that, for that, where that benchmark was evaluating a very particular set of behaviors of the model where that model performed well. if you wanna go out and see how it's gonna perform in your use case, one of the most important things that people are gonna need to do is actually build their own evals. And once you have your own evals, you'll be able to know whether a model does well or doesn't do well. You will then have intelligent routing technology that starts getting deployed. So you will then know when to redirect a prompt to a cheaper model versus a more expensive model. You'll have inferencing that's gonna be distributed everywhere because right now, the cost of inferencing is pretty high, and actually 60% of the total compute capacity that's available is going towards inferencing. And so all of those things really play a factor in how all of these things evolve.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":17,"time":"15:26","seconds":926,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"And so it's not a simple answer, but there's a few factors that you need to consider. So you say, okay, so how do I simplify this? The way to simplify it is, Your trade-offs you're going to have to make are between intelligence cost and control as an enterprise. And you will have to make sure that you get the most amount of intelligence for the lowest unit of cost with the highest degree of control. And that cost will include not just the cost of the token from a dollar perspective, but also the amount of wattage that it actually consumes. because power might be a very scarce resource. And so you have to make sure that you've actually got enough resource. Even if you have the money, you don't have the power, you might actually have an issue.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":18,"time":"16:14","seconds":974,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, and to your point about evaluations, I think it's fascinating to see how the market is reacting to this realization that AI reliability is challenging. And obviously Cisco made the acquisition of Galileo and folded them into Splunk earlier this year and has you know, spent time saying, we're going to evolve our evaluation observability capabilities, we're going to help drive more reliable AI. I think we're seeing that across the market where major organizations are saying, okay, how can we be delivering more reliable, consistent, value from our AI token spend. I mean, whether it's looking at businesses that are cutting back on token maxing or vastly improving their test suites, it's fascinating to see the different approaches that are being taken right now. How do you think about ensuring Cisco itself is actually getting the value it needs out of all the spend and time they spend on AI?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":19,"time":"17:11","seconds":1031,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"Yeah, we actually spend an enormous amount of time in","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":20,"time":"17:18","seconds":1038,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"making sure that the, the expenditure is commensurate with the value. And that, you know, firstly, the first thing that we had done when we started this was we said, everyone has access to tokens, go used to your heart's content and get familiar with it. We had to do that for a certain amount of time.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":21,"time":"17:37","seconds":1057,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"We're now in the phase where we want to make sure that we're actually ensuring that just like you have a physical limit, no matter how big a company you are, by the way, Conor, one of the things I've learned, no matter how big a company you work for, every person in the company always feels like they're resource starved. That has never changed when I've worked for a company that was 18 people large or a company that was 2000 people or 60,000 people or 90,000 people. It is the exact same sentiment that pervades all throughout. Right. And so assuming that everyone continues to feel scarcity of resource. Um, prioritization will continue to be a pretty important thing. And just like you have humans that you have only so many open recs and only so much budget to hire X, many number of people, you're going to have the same kind of constraint from a token standpoint, where you will have, you will be given a certain number of tokens and you will be able, you will be asked to go out and deliver a certain output for, from those certain number of tokens. And then. You start to think about what can I do to generate more tokens for the same cost? How can I make sure that I have my architecture defined in a way that I can actually get 20, 30, 40, 50, 60% more lift in tokens being generated because of the way that I've actually constructed my architecture. All of those things play a pretty important role. So on one end, what we have to do is we have to encourage our employees to say, Use your tokens wisely. And on the second end, what you have to do is you have to make sure that you can create conditions internally that say, here's how you can generate more tokens for the same dollars expended. And if you can get those two things done, then you'll actually tend to do quite well.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":22,"time":"19:30","seconds":1170,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So as you think about what's next for Cisco as far as delivering on the promise of AI, one of the terms I've been hearing you use, and others at Cisco as well, is agentic ops, describing where enterprise infrastructure management is going. Can you explain how you're thinking about this new era and what this new operating model looks like?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":23,"time":"19:54","seconds":1194,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"Yeah, so the agentic ops operating models that actually emerged from a lot of customer feedback that we have that look, you've got great infrastructure, it's resilient infrastructure, it's scalable, it's secure, it's, you know, it's feature rich. And it's too hard to manage sometimes. And so we, we want to make sure that the operations of that infrastructure gets easier. And so what we did, um, you know, what the industry had done a while ago is they'd come up with this term called AI ops and AI ops was used AI for operations, you know, And as we started building our next generation platform with Cisco cloud control, which is our common unified scaffolding for managing any and all products that Cisco produces. Um, we thought about, um, a completely new way of doing that by saying, let's make sure that we have agents that are going out and managing the entire operations. And so you have ambient agents that are sitting within your network. They're monitoring what's going on. Whenever they see an anomaly, not only can they detect the anomaly, they can recommend a remediation and a fix.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":24,"time":"21:14","seconds":1274,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"And that remediation and fix does not get directly put into production. That remediation and fix requires that a digital twin gets spun up right away off your environment. You put live recorded data through that digital twin.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":25,"time":"21:32","seconds":1292,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"You actually drive the changes in policy that you wanted to have to go out and do the response and remediation to the detection that you had during your investigation. And once you've gone out and found a level of comfort that the digital twin operated without any hiccups when you made that change, then and only then should you go out and deploy that change throughout your entire production environment. And so that entire apparatus is what we have made available in Cisco Cloud Control. And we call that entire way of operating a genetic option. The agents are operating your environment. They're working on behalf of the human. They can go out and do things in an automated way to respond and remediate to anomalies and threats and breaches and outages that you might have. and then they will make sure that they can automatically even fix those. But they'll initially, not initially, they'll always have the option of having a human in the loop. And when you feel comfortable enough that those decisions that the agents are making are in fact, ones that don't require you to go out and approve every single one of them, you can start feeling more comfortable and actually removing yourself from being the human in the loop. Um, and you can then start focusing on higher order tasks rather than maintaining hatches and upgrades and all of those things. And that's the gen tech notes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":26,"time":"23:01","seconds":1381,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"How do you think about the decision making around when to have a human in the loop today versus when to fully pass it off to an agentic workflow?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":27,"time":"23:09","seconds":1389,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"I think for every use case and every organization and every situation, that's going to be slightly different. And so what you have to do is you have to make that available to everyone as a feature, which is I'm going to go out and approve everything until I feel that I'm I feel a level of comfort that the agent is smart enough. The models are fine-tuned enough to my environment where I feel like they're going to make the right decisions or the right recommendations, because I've seen enough of them statistically to know that I feel good about it. And then, and only then, should you actually even consider taking a human out of the loop. But until then, you should make sure that you're better safe than sorry. And that will vary for use cases that are simple versus more complicated.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":28,"time":"24:06","seconds":1446,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Season 4 of Chain of Thought is delivered by Svix. We spend a lot of time talking about what agents need in production, and one of the least glamorous answers is events. Your customers want agent workflows that react to things happening inside your system, which means your API needs webhooks that actually work. not just a post request and a prayer, retries, ordering, idempotency, replay protection. Svix does that as a service, and they wrote standard webhooks, the spec that Anthropic, OpenAI, and Google bailed against. So if your API doesn't have reliable webhooks, that's turning into a lost deal. Join Brex, Drata, Daytona, and many others on Svix. Get started at link.svix.com slash c-o-t or go to the show notes to grab the link. Qualified startups will get $12,000 in credits, $50,000 for YC companies. I can't recommend Svix enough. I'm a huge fan of their open source project. I've actually contributed a bit myself and they're so easy to integrate with. I think you'll really enjoy it. Check out Svix at link.svix.com slash C-O-T.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":29,"time":"25:13","seconds":1513,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"you","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":30,"time":"25:13","seconds":1513,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And one of the big concerns here is obviously cyber use cases. And this goes back to what we opened the episode with, talking about open weight models and decision making behind this. A lot of this discussion is being driven by the fallout from an autonomous cyber attack that was committed by rogue OpenAI models against Hugging Face and Hugging Face then having to react by using open-weight Chinese models that weren't guardrailed again for cyber usage. How are you thinking about this, I mean, frankly, mess that is evolving around open cyber and autonomous attacks as this appears to be happening? I would say like faster than many of us thought it would.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":31,"time":"25:55","seconds":1555,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"See, I think there's a profound shift that's happening right now where you're moving in cyber. So the way, how did the cyber industry evolve? It started out as a best of breed industry. There was 3,500 vendors in the market. Every company had about 50 to 70 vendors or products in the cybersecurity stack. And it was untenable to go out and manage those. And that was phase one. Phase two of cyber was what? It was this notion of how do I go create a security platform rather than a point solution of applications. And there were three, four of us, five of us that were kind of core platforms. It was us, it was Microsoft, it was Palo Alto, it was CrowdStrike, it was Google. Those were the core platforms for cyber. And now getting to the third phase, And the third phase is where you can start thinking about an agent trust platform. And an agent trust platform means that it's actually fusing certain industries together, such as security and observability are getting fused together. What does that mean? It's very hard to tell. Let's say an agent deletes 10,000 emails, right? We don't know right now, definitively, if that was because it was a security breach,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":32,"time":"27:26","seconds":1646,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"if there was an external attack that actually convinced the agent to do something that you had not designed the agent to do, or there was the agent feeling completely confident that that was the right thing to do because it was following orders, just like the OpenAI agent was following orders to go out and accomplish the goal of going and beating the email, right? And as a result, security and observability are going to stop becoming two distinctly different domains. And they actually going to fuse into one, you know, and I think that'll have a profound impact on the kind of efficacy. Yeah. Because what you want to do is you want to actually monitor the resiliency of your infrastructure. Number one. Number two, you wanna monitor whether or not your agents are","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":33,"time":"28:17","seconds":1697,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"crossing guardrail boundaries on the boundary conditions or what is deemed as appropriate for the agent to do. And if they do start to cross them, that you can intercept them right away. And number three, you have to make sure that you're monitoring tokenomics, that these agents aren't being overly consumptive in their patterns of usage of tokens. And if they do, you can actually quarantine them. You can actually, you can make sure that you can put them on ice. You can do all of those things. And that, in my mind, is how this market's evolving because that example you gave of open AI and hugging face did not, that was not a malicious agent. That agent was trying to follow an order given to it, slash go, go beat the eval. And the way I think about it is agents are like teenagers. They are profoundly intelligent, extremely resourceful, have no fear of consequence,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":34,"time":"29:23","seconds":1763,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"and don't really have the judgment to know right from wrong at all times.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":35,"time":"29:30","seconds":1770,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"And so if you don't put boundary conditions on them, Like imagine if you told a teenager, just go out and have fun, it doesn't matter what you do, just have fun, that's your only goal. I mean, they'll start doing drugs, they'll start doing all sorts of things. But if you gave the teenager boundary conditions and said, you can do that, but don't do this, don't do this, don't do this, but in outside of those things, go out and have fun. And you actually gave some controls so that if they started even thinking of doing that, there was an interception. then you actually get a tremendous amount of benefit from that teenager. And that's kind of how agents work. And so you have to create that apparatus that allows that agent to operate within the boundary conditions that you want it to operate within. And those have to be done dynamically. Those can't be static rules. The difference between the classical way that we've done it in the past and now is historically we've had static rules. I'm going to allow for these conditions. I'm going to block these conditions. You can't do that with agents because agents are too smart. They'll actually bypass the static rules pretty quickly. And so what you have to do is create a set of dynamic rules that get created at runtime based on the analysis that it is doing of what you're behaving at and whether or not the way in which you're behaving is showing drift. And if it's showing drift from the original intent, then and only then should you intercept.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":36,"time":"31:02","seconds":1862,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] All I can think about now is the idea of naming this episode of Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-25-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":37,"time":"31:07","seconds":1867,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"[OVERLAP] There","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-25-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":38,"time":"31:07","seconds":1867,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] or something along those","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-25-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":39,"time":"31:07","seconds":1867,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"[OVERLAP] you","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-25-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":40,"time":"31:07","seconds":1867,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] lines.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-25-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":41,"time":"31:07","seconds":1867,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"[OVERLAP] go.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-25-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":42,"time":"31:10","seconds":1870,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I know a big way that Cisco is parenting or protecting your AI agents is through Live Protect, which is designed for securing both agents and the attack surface. How are you thinking about this new secure era and building security and protection into infrastructure instead of the kind of older approaches that have been taken?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":43,"time":"31:36","seconds":1896,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"So the way that we've done it at Cisco is we have thought about security needing to be baked into the fabric of the network rather than actually being a thing that is on the side. The other thing that we have done and we've invested a lot of time, money and effort on and resources on is we're building a vertically integrated platform. That's a co-design full stack. We make our own Silicon. We make our own photonics. We make our own systems hardware. We make our own system software, which is like the operating system. We make our own platforms for data, which Splunk for, um, for security and for observability. We make our own models, we make our own applications, and we make our own agents, right? And these are all harmoniously working as a co-designed full stack. And that's a pretty important kind of design construct that we have. And then what we've done is we've said, let's bake security and sprinkle it into the fabric of the network. So my security is... can be enforced anywhere on the fabric of the network. It can be enforced on a top rack switch. It can be enforced on a server. It can be enforced as an agent that's sitting in user space, observing every single process that terminates on the host without actually sitting in the kernel. It's sitting in user space. And when you actually have that level of kind of full spread of information, That changes what you might be able to do with these","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":44,"time":"33:19","seconds":1999,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"kind of architectures. But I think one of the big shifts that's happening is there's a fundamental shift of architecture that's happening with agents, because the way in which these agents use infrastructure is far more consumptive than what a human would use to go out and conduct the same task. Because a human does not have to keep uploading their context and their memory to another model that requires network bandwidth. Human just does recall, right? Whereas an agent has to go out and upload all that. What is an agent? An agent is essentially a skills file, a memory markdown file, some kind of a cron job and in our tools access. And how do you make sure that those four things actually give you the right kind of outcome in the least consumptive way? Well, it still requires a lot of back and forth. And so that's kind of what we've done is we have baked security into the fabric of the network. We've created a vertically integrated stack that's a fully co-designed platform. And then we thought about agents, like in order to go out and make agents zero trust. enabled, which means you provide at least privileged access.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":45,"time":"34:40","seconds":2080,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"You can't just do access control on the agents. You have to do action control, which means, Conor, if you wanted to grant an agent rights to email, to your email inbox, You don't want to grant it full carte blanche rights to your email inbox. You want it to grant rights to it saying, hey, you know what? You can go out and make reservations for me for a restaurant for dinner. But what you can't do is reach out to my board of directors and start randomly texting them. And those are guardrails that have to be instituted over there so that you can do it in the right way.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":46,"time":"35:18","seconds":2118,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, it's interesting you bring that up. I'll say there's definitely things that I am using where I have yet to enable certain capabilities. So, for example, like I use Google for my personal email for this podcast, and I have a version of the Google CLI, the Google Workspace CLI that I have wrapped in an MCP server so that my agent can easily access it. and I explicitly did not include in that the ability to actually send emails because I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":47,"time":"35:45","seconds":2145,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"[OVERLAP] That's pretty bad.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-30-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":48,"time":"35:46","seconds":2146,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] have to like actually go through and it's a bit of a headache sometimes but I'm just like look I don't trust you not to send this email if I give you vague instructions like I I know my prompts aren't always consistent enough so you can draft you can delete you can archive but like hey I want to have that last review on send now that might change I I may have more trust it's a certain point or maybe I'll Um, adjust it so that you can send to contacts already have my inbox, but not new","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-30-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":49,"time":"36:08","seconds":2168,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"[OVERLAP] That's right.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-30-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":50,"time":"36:09","seconds":2169,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"people or something like that,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":51,"time":"36:10","seconds":2170,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"[OVERLAP] That's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-31-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":52,"time":"36:10","seconds":2170,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] but","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-31-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":53,"time":"36:10","seconds":2170,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"[OVERLAP] exactly it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-31-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":54,"time":"36:10","seconds":2170,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] it's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-31-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":55,"time":"36:11","seconds":2171,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"[OVERLAP] Or","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-31-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":56,"time":"36:11","seconds":2171,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] important to have those boundaries.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-31-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":57,"time":"36:11","seconds":2171,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"[OVERLAP] make sure that you don't send emails to these 50 contacts because those","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-31-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":58,"time":"36:17","seconds":2177,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Totally.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-31-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":59,"time":"36:17","seconds":2177,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"are highly guarded contracts. I got a kind of contacts and I don't want you to send anything to them.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":60,"time":"36:22","seconds":2182,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I'm curious to get your thoughts on a couple other angles of the broader AI discussion. So we've covered quite a bit of ground here already, but I'd love to know from your perspective where you think the industry is missing things in today's discussion. You know, what are the edges that people just aren't paying enough attention to?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":61,"time":"36:42","seconds":2202,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"I think the first thing that we're missing right now is, um, we tend to have a very zero sum approach to the way in which we're debating ideas. And I would like us to get more nuanced about it. Um, I do feel like that, that would help us right now, rather than just being very binary and mode and right, getting into a polarized viewpoint. So that would help. I think the second thing we have to. Really appreciate the underlying complexity and the kind of decisions that are being made right now.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":62,"time":"37:15","seconds":2235,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"Policy decisions that need to be made. Decisions around how you go out and optimize for costs. Decisions around what kind of ways can you evaluate the returns from the token spend that you're doing. These don't have a full crystal ball. And I think you still require to take some risk to move forward. And I feel like that's something that has to be uniformly understood. And then the other thing I feel like is, um,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":63,"time":"37:48","seconds":2268,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"What I think people are getting wrong a lot right now is those that are sitting on the sidelines and making a strategic error. I don't think you can, you can be in this market where you say, you know what, I'm going to wait until all this gets figured out and then I'll start using it. The reality is, is you have to jump in and start experimenting right away. And if you don't, you will be left behind and be irrelevant. Um, I'll give you one other thing that I feel like there's a completely, I don't agree with this school of thought. There's a few things that I kind of feel like there's, I have a counterintuitive aura. Um, you know, kind of a point of view that's contrarian to what others might think. And I feel like you're going to have more jobs created because of AI in the future, rather than less jobs. And the reason for that is because the amount of every single time you see a step function improvement and, um, AI doing something in automation, you're actually seeing a commensurate, um, kind of human bottleneck that emerges, that requires going out and getting fulfilled. So if you write unlimited code, code review becomes a bottleneck. If you have some kind of mechanism to do the first line of code review automatically, then you're going to need to have product judgment becomes a bottleneck. And, you know, instinct becomes a bottleneck. And do you know what to build versus not build? And applying that kind of Intrinsic, um, knowledge into, um, um, into that process is not, is not easy. And that becomes a bottleneck. So what I've found is the people that are dexterous with AI and the people that actually are in the know and experiment and have a learning mindset, they're more in demand today than they've ever been. They actually have more, they're busier than they've ever been. They're working longer hours. They're making more money. Right. I just think that the difference is the people that know AI well and are dexterous with AI compared to the ones that don't, that's not a 10% differential anymore, that's a 10x differential. And when it's a 10X differential, 50X differential, 100X differential, it gets very hard to simulate this thing out into the future and think that the people that actually choose not to learn this at all are going to be okay. I feel like you're going to have to have this as a baseline skill set. Otherwise, it will be very, very hard for you to. Now, by the way, the technology has to get simpler. It's not easy right now to go out and build agents like less than 1% of the world is using agents today. Um, the technology has to get simpler. We're all working on it to make that happen. But I do feel like. That's an area that we all have to kind of keep in mind that these are, if you don't get dexterous with this, you will be left behind. And if you are skilled and fluent in AI, the premium that you can command is enormously high.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":64,"time":"40:47","seconds":2447,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. And I definitely agree with you that you just need to jump in and try things because even if you're not nailing it initially, what you'll learn from the process is so massive.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":65,"time":"40:58","seconds":2458,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"[OVERLAP] That's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-37-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":66,"time":"40:58","seconds":2458,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] You know,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-37-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":67,"time":"40:59","seconds":2459,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"[OVERLAP] great.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-37-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":68,"time":"40:59","seconds":2459,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] one of the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-37-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":69,"time":"40:59","seconds":2459,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"[OVERLAP] That's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-37-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":70,"time":"40:59","seconds":2459,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] things","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-37-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":71,"time":"40:59","seconds":2459,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"[OVERLAP] great.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-37-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":72,"time":"40:59","seconds":2459,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I built, I like when, uh, that was at like Opus 4.6 came out, I was like, okay, I'm just going to build a new, like, personal brain context os just for fun like it's not going to be as good as someone else's but i'm going to build my own just because it's going to force me to think about how do i structure decisions prompts memory contexts uh for these different models and that was such a valuable exercise for me and i've got a published version of it on my github github.com slash conor bronsdon it's under i think Claude context os if anyone wants to check it out uh i have a bunch of other open source skills people can try there but Just the process of learning and trying that was so valuable for me to kind of push my thinking and understand where I am missing things. And I see it in all the folks who I talk to on the show and the people who I follow online who are having a lot of success or seeing this career acceleration. They're people who, you know, five, 10 years ago, we would refer to them as lifetime learners, right? Where, you know, they're dexterous, they want to keep learning, they want to grow. And people who are trying to sit out this evolution are at risk of going the way of the dinosaurs. And I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-37-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":73,"time":"42:05","seconds":2525,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"[OVERLAP] I agree.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-37-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":74,"time":"42:05","seconds":2525,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] think you have to lean in right now.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-37-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":75,"time":"42:07","seconds":2527,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"I agree. Couldn't have said it more eloquently.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":76,"time":"42:11","seconds":2531,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Jeetu, are there particular roles that you see being in especially high demand over the next couple of years? Because I know there are a lot of folks who are seeing their current job change substantially and are maybe thinking, you know, I'm leaning in, but I'm not sure what my career path looks like here necessarily. I, I would say personally, like, you know, be agile, try things, but I'm curious if you have any insights around what you expect to see the next year or two.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":77,"time":"42:36","seconds":2556,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"Yeah, I think, you know, people keep saying, oh, there's no point in doing computer science now. I don't buy that at all. I'm like, you need computer science now more than ever before, because you need to have an instinct of how this whole system works. Right. To be able to understand what's, what's happening and not happening. So like, I think computer science is a great field. I think physics is a great field. I think any kind of, um, languages are a great field because having command and communication is going to be important. Um, You know, I do feel like there's, um, like I'm spending a lot of time with student interns and,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":78,"time":"43:14","seconds":2594,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"you know, early in career people. Um, because I find like this is one of the most exciting times to get into the industry, but I do think it's hard for them to land jobs because I think there was this almost ridiculous narrative that had started for a while, which is, Hey, um, all entry-level jobs are going to go away and we're not going to need to hire anyone who is like coming out of college. I'm like, why would you ever do that? Because you would like let go of all the new ideas","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":79,"time":"43:45","seconds":2625,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] This","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-41-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":80,"time":"43:45","seconds":2625,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"[OVERLAP] and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-41-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":81,"time":"43:45","seconds":2625,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] is how OpenAI wanted to raise money in the Anthropic.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-41-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":82,"time":"43:50","seconds":2630,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"Well, but the ironic part is they were hiring a lot of people from colleges, the top tier colleges. And so if you just say, it's hard to imagine any other company being more effective with AI than OpenAI and Anthropic. And if you look at what they were doing, they were adding jobs. They were not taking away jobs. And they continue to keep adding jobs. Now, by the way, every single one of their people is doing 10 times more than what they could do a year ago, two years ago, three years ago. But, but that doesn't mean that you're not going to add jobs. Um, I just think that those jobs require the profile of the jobs is changing. And as that happens. We as a tech community have to make sure that, um, we can upskill the workforce effectively at scale. Cause otherwise what happens is you have a lot of human suffering that occurs.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":83,"time":"44:42","seconds":2682,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I would argue we're not doing a good job of that at scale at this point, or at least not consistently.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":84,"time":"44:48","seconds":2688,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"We're not, we're not. We have to, we have to do a better job. Yeah. And it's, um, um, it's very, very solvable. So I don't think it's something that can't be done. I just think that we've actually not focused on doing that as well as collectively as a society. Now, by the way, we've done a lot at Cisco in creating, you know, we have this program called NetAcad, which allows you to go out and train people in different areas on networking, on security, on AI. And we do that, we work in partnership with, you know, governments within countries and make sure that we can actually work and ensure that different populations in different parts of the world get to a certain level of dexterity. We do a lot of that within the US, of course. I think that's super important.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":85,"time":"45:40","seconds":2740,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I think that's a great note to end on. There is such an opportunity in the AI revolution, in this massive boom we're seeing, but there are systemic risks that we have to address. And Jeetu, I couldn't be more excited to follow the work that you're doing and that Cisco's doing in the months and years to come. Thank you again for joining us on Chain of Thought, and thank you everyone for listening.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel","episode":67,"guid":"d7c8aa88-549d-41e9-b37c-f58cdbf8dc79","episodeTitle":"Parenting Your AI Agents for Best Results | Cisco's Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2026-08-12","segmentIndex":86,"time":"45:58","seconds":2758,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"Thanks, Conor.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/67-parenting-your-ai-agents-for-best-results-ciscos-jeetu-patel/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Jitender Aswani","text":"A traditional enterprise will have anywhere between 52 to 200 data sources. The federation is the only model that scales with entropy. Can centralization scale with entropy? No, because the entropy is constantly, constantly increasing. Imagine agents without access to all the data, without access to the right contacts. What would they do?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:25","seconds":25,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Every enterprise AI project that's failing is fighting the same hidden battle. Your agents can query the model just fine, but they can't reach the data, or they're not getting the right data. And the reason is often decades of architectural debt. We've talked about context and memory on this show, and we're going to dive much deeper today. Welcome back to Chain of Thought, everyone. I am your host, Conor Bronsdon. Reminder to make sure that you've subscribed and turned on notifications if you're on YouTube. My guest today has spent 20 years at some of the world's most data-intensive companies before joining the team commercializing the open-source query engine he was customer zero for, which we'll definitely talk about. His argument sounds a bit like this. Data federation, not centralization, is the piece that enterprise AI has been missing. And with agents now generating a significant share of data infrastructure traffic and more than half of internet traffic, getting this wrong is getting more expensive by the quarter. That guest is Jitender Aswani, SVP of Engineering and Security at Starburst, the 3.35 billion enterprise data platform built on Trino. Before Starburst, Jitender led data infrastructure at Meta, Netflix, and holds multiple patents in machine learning, data management, and graph optimization. Jitender, welcome to Chain of Thought. How are things going?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":2,"time":"1:49","seconds":109,"speaker":"Jitender Aswani","text":"First and foremost, thanks for having me. I'm super excited to be here. And things are, things cannot be going any better for, for, for the industry and for Starburst. And I think you, you framed the challenge pretty well for the industry around data fragmentation. And now you talked about the growing volume of traffic from agents, and that is now posing a very interesting challenge for the industry. So I look forward to this conversation.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":3,"time":"2:18","seconds":138,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I do as well. I think your background is perfect for it. So let's start there. You were customer zero at Meta for Presto, which became what's now known as Trino. And it has become the foundation for Starburst as well for this over $3 billion company. What made you fall in love with this technology that has been such a through line in your career?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":4,"time":"2:40","seconds":160,"speaker":"Jitender Aswani","text":"That's a fantastic question to get started with.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":5,"time":"2:45","seconds":165,"speaker":"Jitender Aswani","text":"Before I talk about Presto, which eventually became Trino, let me take us back and I will age myself with that narrative as well. Before this technology, the world was starting to think about big data, and the technology that was dominating the big data landscape was Hadoop and Hive. As you can imagine, Meta at that point had roughly one billion daily active users, and those daily active users across the family of apps were generating massive amounts of data. And that data need to be analyzed to basically understand which users are active and what are they active in, which users go on to become monthly active users, which users are doing things in feed and where are they watching the video, where are they pausing the video. So a lot of this analysis was very much required for us to continue to improve the product experience. for 1 billion daily active users. And that was not very pleasant with Hive. Our engineers will write certain data pipelines and the queries were never interactive during those days. So the pipelines will run for hours. We will wait for data to get transformed and then data will eventually show up and product managers and engineers will look at how their product performed. And that was very slow, as you can imagine. It actually slowed the product innovation velocity. Meta is known for experimentation. And experimentation required quick thinking, quick speed, and course correction if an experiment is not going well. And you can't wait for 24 hours, 48 hours. Meta is known to make changes in minutes. So if your queries on this massive amounts of data are not coming back in minutes, you are starting to now impact the user experience for billions of users. So that was the world we lived in, and it was okay. We were totally fine. And then one fine day, the data infrastructure team starts incubating presto. And fortunately, my team was customer zero. We were in growth data engineering. As you can imagine, growth is all about growth hacking. I think the growth hacking term was popularized back in early 2010s. Presto comes along, and then you fire a query, and within minutes, the query comes back. Now, I don't need a break anymore. I don't have to switch context and go work on something else and come back, hey, has my query successfully run? But now with Presto, I'm just spending a little bit of a time looking over at another window and seeing my code, and then I come back and it's like, oh, I got this analysis back. Now this this A-B experiment had a pretty large blast radius and it's not doing really well. Let's cut this down. So that exactly what it meant is that the speed of innovation at Meta compounded with the advent of Presto and it actually I think it started a new era at Meta because product managers could do a lot more experiments. And they could very quickly course correct those experiments if experiments were not delivering the desired result. So I would say Presto was magical for us. So that's how it changed my life.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":6,"time":"6:48","seconds":408,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"This is super interesting. Tell me more about this idea of Presto helping create a new era, because I think we often talk about technologies that are very well known as far as like, oh, AI is creating a new era. But more in general terms, we don't necessarily talk about the specific details that enable these new layers of instrumentation and experimentation.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":7,"time":"7:12","seconds":432,"speaker":"Jitender Aswani","text":"Yeah, so it unblocked many product managers and engineers who are working on improving the user experience in their product, or they launch a new feature, they would like to know how is this feature performing, right? Before I scale that feature up to go from 10 million users to 100 million users, let me collect some behavioral data. And that's a large amount of data. So to two benefits of it, Presto allowed us to query large amounts of data, but also the speed at which we can get the answers back was unseen before Presto's era. So as I said, it's unlocked a new generation of experiments for us. It just dramatically increased the innovation velocity at Meta. And I think that's why it became such a dominant compute engine in the industry. Pretty much every Silicon Valley company has it in their stack, whether it's Stripe or Apple or Net. I was at Netflix or LinkedIn. Pretty much every company picked it up because it just changed how many of these internet era companies started to experiment and started to take new innovation to the market. Imagine taking new product to the market and not getting any signals for days. because now you're collecting data, you're kind of transforming that data to make it queryable. And when you eventually query that data, the query itself takes hours, right? It discourages everyone. And three days later, the behavior has already shifted. Maybe your users have already moved on because you had certain feature in your product that did not do well. And we have seen examples of that in the industry, most recently with one of the, One of the smart speakers company, we saw that because the user feedback is super critical to understand how are your users adopting the product? Are they rejecting it? Are they loving it? And I think, I must say that Facebook's motto was ship love. This is how we used to say internally. We want to ship love. And we could only get signals if we could interactively query all of this data and see are we literally shipping love are we starting to piss off our users?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":8,"time":"9:36","seconds":576,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] That is a lovely way to think about it. And I find it really fascinating that you were at ground zero of this, I'll call it data transformation. And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-7-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":9,"time":"9:49","seconds":589,"speaker":"Jitender Aswani","text":"[OVERLAP] yes","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-7-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":10,"time":"9:50","seconds":590,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"when you then took Trino as well, I guess, transition to calling it to Netflix, You were part of processing trillions of data points for, what, 300 million plus subscribers at the time, with heavy security components on top. What changed as you, you know, first did this at Netflix and then now started to take this same technology, or sorry, first did this at Meta and then started to take the same technology to Netflix?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":11,"time":"10:20","seconds":620,"speaker":"Jitender Aswani","text":"Yeah, the word changed from Meta to Netflix is. Presto started to mature. And as you can imagine, both these companies operate at massive scales. They're generating trillions of events because there are millions of subscribers for Netflix that are generating trillions of events, billions of users at Meta generating trillions of events. So now the technology also has to scale with the data volumes that are growing in exponential numbers. So that's the biggest leap we saw is that there comes a technology. Not only it's really, really, really, really fast and it's starting to unlock a new wave of innovation, but it can now operate at scale as well. So at Netflix, the number of use cases just dramatically increased for us. The other thing that I saw at Netflix was also the machine learning use cases started to run on Presto. And if all of us have seen how Netflix has evolved over time, you may have seen that your Netflix screen is very different from my Netflix homepage. That is because it's highly personalized. like personalizing Netflix experience. And this is not just one time personalization. Every time you log in, your screen is different. And that requires massive amounts of processing of behavioral data. Is that what has changed in the last 30 minutes since you logged in? Let's make sure that now when you log in, we give you an immersive experience so that now you are able to engage more freely, you're able to move around the Netflix screens, you're able to search better, and you can find your content better so that from search to what they used to say is the play, that time should be compressed as low as possible. That exactly, what enabled this behavior at Netflix is because of our ability to understand you, personalize it, so that your experience is as delightful as possible. And I think there is a business implication to it as not only we're delivering delightful experience, but we're continuously increasing the competitive mode. I think that's where the technologies, if you think about technologies, The reason technologies get adopted or rejected is, okay, what are the business outcomes? And one of the business outcomes always is that our competitive mode. Like Netflix has that competitive mode because the experience in Netflix application was delightful. And it all happened because of the massive investments they've made in the data infrastructure. and the ability to generate trillions of events that, okay, I could do that, but the ability to collect all of those events and then process those events and extract out signals that are relevant to each and every individual. And we're not looping people into cohorts and say, this cohort of people coming from this zip code should be given this. We're personalizing at individual levels. So imagine doing that for 300 million subscribers every day, multiple times a day, we're processing that much data. and delivering delightful experience to our subscribers. That's the competitive mode. That's why people in the early days loved the Netflix experience. It was so engaging, so hooking, that there was nothing else like this. I think that's where a new generation of personalization applications started, both at Meta and then at Netflix.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":12,"time":"14:07","seconds":847,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I love that you make this connection to the user value that gets delivered and what that means for the business. Because I think often with backend features, it's easy to not necessarily make that connection. So, and that speaks to the quality of the engineering work you're doing and the leadership work you're doing, that you are making that connection and saying, okay, here's the value we're delivering because we lowered the speed of queries in these batch modes we're running. Here's what's happening with the data architecture and how it matters to users and how it matters to the business. And that can be a challenge for a lot of engineering teams when they work on something that is considered by the business side, maybe more esoteric. So as you have this experience, you're customer zero at Meta, you're part of the early development, then you're at Netflix scaling out again, running engineering at a company that really commercialize a lot of this. What then brings you to Starburst years later?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":13,"time":"15:11","seconds":911,"speaker":"Jitender Aswani","text":"It's a fantastic question. Presto has been with me for almost 10 plus years now, and it has transformed my own professional experience. It has actually changed my own career trajectory. As you said really well, that the ability for the engineering leadership to be able to connect the investment they're making in the infrastructure to business outcomes. It should not be just, it's a back office investments. We should be able to articulate that the fact that we're making these investments allows us to accelerate business and deliver more and more value to our end users. Now, coming back to Starburst, I always differentiate between technology and a product. It's an amazing technology. And it has done wonders at many Silicon Valley companies. Now, can it be taken beyond a few highly tech forward Silicon Valley companies and can it be commercialized? So I think that the next challenge for Starburst was that we have this amazing technology has delivered incredible impact. Can it be commercialized? Can we take it to 10,000 plus enterprises? That was, that was, that has been the challenge for Starburst. And I think Starburst has, has, has, has lived up to, to that challenge. The fact that, um, 13 of the top 15, uh, financial services institutions in the world have, uh, very large deployments of, of, uh, of, of Trino and Starburst speak to the, the, the potential it has lived up to. And, and also there are so many other sectors where our customers just love Starburst and Trino. And that was for me was exactly that, okay, we have this compute engine and building a data platform around compute engine is quite challenging. The companies do not just need a compute engine. The compute engine has to work with the governance that is very much required at every enterprise. It also needs to work with various different other data platform services like ingestion. You're moving data over some streaming infrastructure. It lands in an object store in AWS or GCP or any other cloud service provider. Can a compute engine work in that ecosystem? In a closed ecosystem like Meta and Netflix, yes, you can highly optimize it. But then how do you take all of that optimization, package it? and offer it as a cloud service or offer it as a self-service option to your enterprises. So for us, that was the biggest challenge. Can we do that? Can we take our compute engine and build a data platform around it? And I think that's where Starburst really shines. That's where the mode is that it's a complete data platform. And the other big challenge was that Meta and Netflix had data fragmentation, but because these are the companies that are born and scaled in the internet era, they did not have that massive amount of data fragmentation that we have seen in traditional enterprises. A traditional enterprise will have anywhere between 52 to 200 data sources. And it's a natural evolution because their tech stack has been growing And new services are generating new data and it require a new type of data source like an object store or a NoSQL store. And traditionally they have been using relational stores like Postgres, Oracle, MySQL, and now you have MongoDB and Couchbase. And then suddenly you have S3. So you have this massive data fragmentation. And that was another challenge is that, okay, now we need to put our compute engine on top of this very fragmented data landscape, but still deliver that magical experience that I first had at Meta when I first ran my query on Presto. That's the challenge that we took on. we have very successfully delivered that challenge. And we continue to say that the data fragmentation is something we cannot avoid, right? We have to live with it. And the best way to live with that challenge is to actually put a virtual compute layer on top through data federation.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":14,"time":"19:54","seconds":1194,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I know beyond all the work you've done on the product side, all the work you've done on the engineering side, you have also done work on the academic side. You hold multiple patents. You've been part of research on this topic, on data management, graph optimization, machine learning. Where does this research instinct come from and how does it show up in the way you lead engineering organizations and the way you've helped develop Brasto and Trina?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":15,"time":"20:24","seconds":1224,"speaker":"Jitender Aswani","text":"That's a great question. My research always starts with the interface itself. So as I was talking about the personalization use case, One of the research we did is related to understanding how will users in future interact with data. Back in 2011-2012, we felt that there is no Google for data. There's Google for information. You could Google structured documents, and these documents are unstructured documents. These are indexed really well. So you can just type in a natural language query, and you can get pretty incredible response. But that doesn't exist for structured data. You still have to learn. SQL is a very easy dialect to learn. And SQL has been around for 40, 50 plus years and it's not going anywhere. But many people do not know how to interact with data. And if you remember in 2010, 2011, when this whole big data movement started, there was this term coin called data democratization. Data democratization really truly mean is that now we have so much data, allow everyone to interact with that data. And curious minds will find some very noble solutions to the persistent set of problems that we have. And back in those days, we saw many such success stories that when you have so many curious minds working on on solving very hard to solve problems. If you give them access to data, if you break down all the barriers, any hurdles that exist, whether it's access to data, whether it's technology or like, okay, how do I write a query or how do I understand the data shape? That was the reason for our research. We felt back in the day that if I were to bring SQL search and graph together, And I'll explain why graph, but if I can bring SQL search and graph together, that you use a Google-like search box and you can interact with your data in natural language. And I'm talking 2020, 2011. Back then, the domain of natural language was very limited. It was primarily focused on natural language processing, NLP. And NLP went on to evolve, become natural language understanding, which went on to become large language models and transformers, and then large language models. And large language models gave us chat GPT and Anthropic Claude-like interfaces. So non-natural language conversations are relatively straightforward. 16 years ago, it was amazingly difficult. So my research was focused on introducing a new interface for business users so they don't have to understand SQL. They also do not have to understand where the data is and what is the shape of their data. Because in order for you to question, you need to know what data exists and how do I actually understand the shape of the data? And so there are these barriers and that's why you had these specialist roles of data scientist and data analyst, because that was their responsibilities to understand what data do we have, what is the shape of the data. how far this data goes back, what are the gaps in our data? A business user does not care, but if you give a business user as a natural language interface and say, okay, you can query your data because you have this very well curated data set that can answer your business questions. So just like the speed of innovation at Meta rapidly accelerated once we put Presto, we had a very similar that I would like all our business users to get access to their data. So they're not waiting for seven days or five days. So that was the premise for our research. And that required blending search, which there are certain technologies like building Lucene indexes on top of structured data, understanding metadata from the structured data. And then eventually, bringing everything together as an enterprise knowledge graph. Google search was based on this premise of a knowledge graph, but enterprises do not have a knowledge graph. Even till today, very few enterprises have invested in building an enterprise knowledge graph. That was the premise for our research. And I think, as I mentioned to you, when I approach research with my colleagues, we always think in terms of what will be the impact on end users? Will we be delivering a new way of interacting with the data? Will that change outcomes? So that's how I have always approached research, and I've been fortunate to get some patents on my research. And one more thing on this research topic is when we come across some gaps in our product. And then we see that our users are experiencing some friction in our product. I'll take a concrete example. Let's say you're searching for an answer. You have a question related to how do I, and I will use a very trivial example, how do I troubleshoot my VPN? And it's a very common problem. Sometimes people are having difficulties with VPN and they use the internal portal and they look for a response because they don't know where to go. Like, should I go talk to IT or put a ticket because I have a VPN issue? Or can I just search? Today, you can search. If you have Glean, you can search. And if Glean has indexed knowledge articles, it will be immediately able to give you instructions that this is how you troubleshoot your VPN. Imagine that problem 15 years ago. And then the cross collaboration, it basically means is that, okay, if there is no knowledge article related to troubleshooting a bad VPN connection, can I generate that? And this generation is not, again, this is all pre-generative AI era. Like, can I create a knowledge article by looking at knowledge article from internet? And I think that's where the whole research comes in is that I may not know the answer, but can I actually bring an answer and can I present a credible answer to you by, it's called, the most elementary term is collaborative filtering. It's like, can I actually look at companies that are similar to you and give you a response. This is how they solve their VPN problem. Or you also have a VPN from this company. They also have a VPN technology from this company. Let me just look up the FAQ from this VPN provider. That's the focus for our research is always be thinking about delivering impact to our end users.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":16,"time":"28:01","seconds":1681,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"You brought up several interesting concepts here, but the one through line for through it all that I'm seeing is this idea of data fragmentation and the fact that despite billions of dollars of spend, multiple different attempts to solve it, most businesses still have challenges here, whether it's using ETL, data lakes, lake houses, data stream, there's a billion terms for this.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":17,"time":"28:26","seconds":1706,"speaker":"Jitender Aswani","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-14-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":18,"time":"28:27","seconds":1707,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Uh, why is it that we're still struggling so much with data? Is it just related to the continuing increase of what we instrument? Is it because we now have this new era of agents where suddenly we have even more data of a different types that we're acquiring? I mean, we've been talking about this concept of big data for decades now and how we can leverage it. And we, we have","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-14-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":19,"time":"28:48","seconds":1728,"speaker":"Jitender Aswani","text":"[OVERLAP] Yes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-14-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":20,"time":"28:49","seconds":1729,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"LLMs to help us with a lot of the data analysis now. Like, why are we still struggling here?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":21,"time":"28:54","seconds":1734,"speaker":"Jitender Aswani","text":"It's a fantastic question. And I think you touched on two points, which have the response as well. Centralization was a fine, fine strategy. when the data was growing not as fast as your ability to move it. What has happened over the last 10 plus years is the explosion in number of SaaS tools, number of cloud services, and there are so many other vendors and pretty much every single service that you use is generating data and storing that data. So, up until a point, centralization works fine. But as the data volume continues to explode, the ETL tech debt starts to really accumulate. And your engineering teams are now struggling to think about, okay, how do I move? all of this data. And as you can imagine, data is not static. The shape of the data is constantly changing. Your SaaS vendors or your internal applications are now generating newer data. They may have added a new column. And now you have to go back and retool your ETL to bring that data in. Before that retooling, you're spending days debugging why my pipelines are failing. So if you are leading a data organization, you are constantly facing these challenges. You're having sleepless nights. In fact, I was talking to some colleagues at Meta and they said they were battling with certain, they call them SEVs, which are severity incidents. And like, what happened? Oh, pipelines were not running. So this is a constant problem. Industry and enterprises have spent billions building data infrastructure to move data from one place to another place. And then they keep doing it. And this whole data centralization concept surfaced during the big data era. Like move all your data to a data lake and all your problems will be solved. That's not true, right? Your problem starts to compound when you have moved all your data. Now you have a governance problems. you have this continuous ETL challenges. And there are so many other problems when you have centralized your data. So I think this, as I said, you had two points that have already answered the question. I think the federation is the only model that scales with entropy. Can centralization scale with entropy? No, because the entropy is constantly, constantly increasing. So as, as, as a, as a CIO, I'm always asking this question is that should I continue to have investments in having a single place, a single data gravity for all my data, or shall I have multiple data gravities? And I think the, what we have seen is, is a pretty strong pivot in that direction where federation alongside centralization is getting serious attention.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":22,"time":"32:26","seconds":1946,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] How has the new era of AI agents impacted the decisions you're making here? Because as we said at the top of the show, more than half of internet traffic is now agents and we're seeing them spread across every business. Many of us are exclusively using them for coding and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-16-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":23,"time":"32:46","seconds":1966,"speaker":"Jitender Aswani","text":"[OVERLAP] Yes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-16-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":24,"time":"32:46","seconds":1966,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] very rarely touching the code ourselves. There's so","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-16-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":25,"time":"32:49","seconds":1969,"speaker":"Jitender Aswani","text":"[OVERLAP] That's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-16-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":26,"time":"32:49","seconds":1969,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] many examples","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-16-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":27,"time":"32:49","seconds":1969,"speaker":"Jitender Aswani","text":"[OVERLAP] true.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-16-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":28,"time":"32:49","seconds":1969,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-16-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":29,"time":"32:50","seconds":1970,"speaker":"Jitender Aswani","text":"Yeah. Um, in fact, 80% of our code is now generated by agents and our own, uh, uh, agent take, uh, invoices are exponentially increasing month over month. So we have seen an explosion of, of, uh, agents touching code base and agents requiring access to the data. I want to use this story that I've lived myself. So this one fine day, one of our senior VP walks out and asks us a question. Why is the churn in enterprise segment rising? And we all think we know, but we don't want to give him the answer right away. So three days later, after very thorough and in-depth analysis, we looked at every possible data source. We looked at every possible source of information, including emails and talk to AEs. We come back and we gave a response and at that point it's like, I don't know what you're telling me. Because you asked us a question and now we're giving you an answer why the churn in the enterprise segment has increased. I said, oh, I made a decision and I actually kicked off certain campaigns to reduce the churn in enterprise segments. But I said you did not wait for any response to the data question you had. It was like, oh, we folks are three days late. So now that's humans. And I have a similar story from another organization where the CFO asked the question, why is our churn up? And seven days later, three teams give him three different answers. Finance team gave him an answer and finance team had a different methodology. because they included cancellations. Product team has a very different methodology because product team included all the trialers, which was not included by anybody else. And then the sales team, which had the lowest share number, did not include renewals. So three different answers. And now imagine that this is pre-agentic AI era. we are struggling to get access to the data. We're all making decisions based on the data that I have access to. And not just that, there is this context problem as well, which we know is the hottest topping in the industry right now. And context is just not metadata, context is more than metadata. So going back to the discussion is that, that is pre AI era. Humans could not do it. Imagine, imagine agents without access to all the data, without access to the right. contacts, what would they do? And what has happened is that as a result of that, because these agents have this, they operate in this react mode, they reason, they act, they reason, they act, they are generating queries at insane speed. Some people call it at machine speed. I think they're generating it faster than the machine itself. And they're fighting multiple queries. And sometimes they're fighting unbounded queries as well. Because they're not making judgment of, shall I fire that query? They think they have access to this data, I'm gonna fire a query and see what I can glean out of it. I don't think I have an answer yet. They fired another query. And they continuously do that. As a result, we have seen an explosion in query volumes. In fact, when we launched our own MCP server, we saw the query volume go through roof. The MCP adoption through cloud for Starburst just exploded. As a result, many of our customers reached out because they had to scale the compute capacity behind it. So organizations have to be ready. They need this auto-scaling compute infrastructure, and they also need a very robust platform that can handle this query volume without compromising the query performance. So we have seen massive explosion, and I don't think we're going to see any","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":30,"time":"37:21","seconds":2241,"speaker":"Jitender Aswani","text":"slowdown in","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":31,"time":"37:23","seconds":2243,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] No.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-18-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":32,"time":"37:23","seconds":2243,"speaker":"Jitender Aswani","text":"[OVERLAP] the agentic queries that are coming into our compute infrastructure.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-18-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":33,"time":"37:27","seconds":2247,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] No, completely agreed. Like, we are seeing more and more desire for compute. I think it's exactly the opposite. I think we're going to see an increasing number of indented queries, even from where we're at today. And if I was a guess on a trend, I'd say it's more about what models are powering those queries. And it's going to be more about, okay, more open source AI that's cheaper, trying to optimize for costs and efficiency. But I mean, we're not seeing any slowdown in any","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-18-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":34,"time":"37:57","seconds":2277,"speaker":"Jitender Aswani","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-18-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":35,"time":"37:57","seconds":2277,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] of the areas that Everyone's sold out of their hardware.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-18-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":36,"time":"38:01","seconds":2281,"speaker":"Jitender Aswani","text":"[OVERLAP] Yes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-18-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":37,"time":"38:01","seconds":2281,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] It's pretty clear. I mean, like, look at the SpaceX deals with with Anthropic, for example,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-18-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":38,"time":"38:06","seconds":2286,"speaker":"Jitender Aswani","text":"[OVERLAP] With Anthropic","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-18-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":39,"time":"38:07","seconds":2287,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] where,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-18-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":40,"time":"38:07","seconds":2287,"speaker":"Jitender Aswani","text":"[OVERLAP] and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-18-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":41,"time":"38:08","seconds":2288,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] yeah, they desperately","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-18-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":42,"time":"38:08","seconds":2288,"speaker":"Jitender Aswani","text":"[OVERLAP] Google,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-18-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":43,"time":"38:08","seconds":2288,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] need more compute.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-18-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":44,"time":"38:09","seconds":2289,"speaker":"Jitender Aswani","text":"[OVERLAP] yes. Correct. Everybody needs more compute. I'm surprised Google is buying capacity from SpaceX.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-18-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":45,"time":"38:18","seconds":2298,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I thought","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-18-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":46,"time":"38:18","seconds":2298,"speaker":"Jitender Aswani","text":"[OVERLAP] So","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-18-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":47,"time":"38:19","seconds":2299,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] that was","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-18-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":48,"time":"38:19","seconds":2299,"speaker":"Jitender Aswani","text":"[OVERLAP] it's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-18-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":49,"time":"38:19","seconds":2299,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] fascinating.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-18-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":50,"time":"38:19","seconds":2299,"speaker":"Jitender Aswani","text":"[OVERLAP] incredible.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-18-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":51,"time":"38:20","seconds":2300,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-18-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":52,"time":"38:21","seconds":2301,"speaker":"Jitender Aswani","text":"[OVERLAP] Yes, yes. And I think there is a small sliver of hope is that if agents get more guardrails. if they get more precise context. So they don't have to be endlessly firing these queries. I think that's where I feel there's a small hope because I feel that a lot of these agents are operating with a very light context. And the other challenge I see is that these agents do not have access to the entire data landscape. They have been isolated. So I think there are two challenges. Because of the data fragmentation and I would use my own example. the one of the FinOps agent that we developed internally on top of Starburst platform. When we were developing this data, we only had access to understand our own cloud spend. We had access to only data that comes from AWS. Now we do have data from Azure and GCS, but there is that problem. I was explaining earlier is that I need to now build the pipe to bring it over because it's not queryable. So we start, we build the agent on top of AWS data, but it doesn't give us full picture. So when I ask, here's our cloud spend, can you break it down by cloud service provider? And I know that it doesn't have access to other cloud service providers. But then it starts fighting queries. It's just frantically fighting queries without stepping back and thinking, do you even have GCS and Azure data? I think that's what I feel is that because it doesn't have access to that data, and it has that, I call some of these large language models which power these agents as like overzealous. They want to prove themselves right. They do not want to come back and say like, oh, I was wrong. I could not solve this problem. They have to always solve the problem. So they keep doing this. And sometimes I've seen that like after 30 minutes, they're still doing it. And I know you are wasting my tokens. Just stop. I sent you on a wild goose chase and you did go on that wild goose chase. So I think there's a small hope that with access to the right data and with complete context, maybe we will see that agents are now starting to limit the number of queries they fire. I'm not saying they will fire fewer queries, I think they will become smarter and they will structure their queries better and they will kind of also sequence their queries better. Right now I feel like they are kind of, sometimes they're stuck in an endless loop","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-18-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":53,"time":"41:10","seconds":2470,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, it's interesting to see how this changes over each generation of models and depending on the engineering of the harness you're using and what context specifically the agent has been enabled with. So I'd love to understand a bit more about how Starburst is building tools and data structures for agent context. I know you have an AI gateway product specifically for agentic workloads. I know you've had to make decisions around, you know, how to approach this. What's the approach at Starburst around development for agents?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":54,"time":"41:44","seconds":2504,"speaker":"Jitender Aswani","text":"It's a fantastic question. So we're approaching it from many different directions because we know that there's not a single solution that is needed to completely harness the value these agents and underlying foundation models would provide. So first and foremost, we launched a new product called AIDA, which if I were to go back and say, in 2011-2012, we were thinking about a search box. which allows users to now fire natural language queries on top of structured data and do not have to be concerned about understanding the shape of the data or understanding where the data is coming from, understanding do they have access or not. I think it's like, sometimes it does take 16 years to see that vision or dream come true. Technology was not right, but now with AIDA, conversation analytics has become a reality. In fact, we're not the only company that are thinking about conversation analytics, because we believe the way traditional BI has been done is completely broken. I gave you a few examples of BIs that if I have a question, I fired a question, or I struggled to find which dashboard can answer this question, or which report will have question on enterprise segment is experiencing higher churn. But now with this conversational analytics interface from Starburst Call Data, I can just start asking questions. I think that's to us is a game changing product. And now if I were to peel the layers of this product, you mentioned something about the governance and the guardrails. So to build this conversation analytics, and as you can imagine, When I'm sitting inside cloud and I'm looking at a business problem, I've given it certain context. Once I have a concrete output, what do I do with that? I actually end up sharing it. I end up triggering a workflow out of that. That's how we have thought about conversation analytics. It's not just about ad hoc exploration. It's about turning that ad hoc exploration into some kind of a business workflow. So that's what we have introduced in AIDA. It allows users to explore what data they have, prosecute data, and turn those insights into actions. And all of that can be done by sitting inside AIDA. Just like an agent requires skills to grow its ability, AIDA has skills. You can bring your own skills. let's say you're operating in a marketing domain and you want to perform a cohort analysis, you can encapsulate that knowledge around cohort analysis in a skill and ask agent, is that when you are interacting with this data, answer my question using these skills. So skill has become the harness for agents and agents have been able to Inside AIDA agents are able to use the skills. Also, as I mentioned that turning insights into actions requires building a workflow. Inside AIDA, we have the ability to talk to any MCP server. I'll use an example. I'm sitting inside AIDA and I'm working on our telemetry data that comes out of our Cloud SaaS. I'm also now within AIDA connected to Datadog using Datadog MCP server. And I'm understanding, I'm doing root cause analysis of an incident sitting inside AIDA. Like this is the telemetry coming in. This is the query volume, as you mentioned earlier about agent query volume. We do see some hiccups sometimes. And I can sit inside AIDA and review all the telemetry and say, there is this hiccup. What happened to the query performance? And I think that that was not initially possible because doing this kind of analysis will require us to build a custom application. Now with a conversational interface like this and with the ability to talk to any other service using MCP interface and drop any skill, now I have this super application that I'm able to use to supercharge my own work. And then coming to the challenge of context, in order for AIDA to make accurate, decisions, it needs right context. So we have invested in building our own context layer. And context layer is not just a catalog. Catalog is all about like, where is my data? Who has access to that data? And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":55,"time":"46:56","seconds":2816,"speaker":"Jitender Aswani","text":"what data do I have? So it basically answers three questions. But context is more than just like, the data and access to the data. Context is also about the ontology, is understanding that customer means account, it also could be, it also synonyms with opportunity, it also synonyms with this across my landscape, or the definition of churn, or the definition of cohort. Cohort has different meaning for different domains. And within a domain, cohort may have a different meaning for different individuals. So bringing all of this context together, all of that knowledge that has existed in individual's mind or has been somewhere buried away in Confluence or Google Docs, bringing all of that information together and turning that into a context graph, which is different from a knowledge graph. Knowledge graph is all about entities and relationships. Now context graph is building on top of a knowledge graph. These are the entities, these are the relationships. And here's more information about the entities. Here are business rules. One example of a business rule is for an enterprise, fiscal year may start in February and may end in January. But for some company fiscal year starts in July and for some companies there is no fiscal year and fiscal year maps to calendar year. So subtle terminology differences like this need to be made available to agent for them to make a smarter decision. The definition of churn, definition of ARR, definition of monthly recurring revenue, or definition of hundreds of metrics an enterprise uses, metrics around active users or metrics around the NTS. All of this requires integration with all the other different entities and relationships that exist. We have made a massive investment in our own context layer. We took a similar approach that we had for Trino. Trino is a federation layer. and we do not recommend you move your data to a centralized location. We recommend, because there's this entropy loss, we recommend you keep your data close to a source and we will enable the querying of that data. Similarly, we're taking this approach because we know your context lives in 10 different places. You may be using a certain catalog for understanding your data. you may be using a certain other service where you have your business rules and policies. One of our customers uses a very homegrown service where they have information on how to process returns. That's like if you talk to an agent and you're saying, I want to return this product I just purchased, agent needs to know how to process returns. And in order for this to do that, it needs to know, what are the business rules? What are the policies? And agents now need to, in order to process that return, it has to talk to multiple data sources. Who's this customer? Are they a high value customer? How does it understand it's a high value customer? So this requires access to so much data, just like agents require access to so much data. Now they require so much context to be able to make accurate business decisions. It's not an easy problem. It's a very complex problem because context harnessing, and presenting it together to agents along with the data. I think that's where the next billion dollar companies will be created. And we have a pretty solid start. We had a moat in data federation, and we have a moat in context federation as well. So that's where we're investing in our stack. We're helping our companies move at the speed of large language models.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":56,"time":"51:17","seconds":3077,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I think that is the right approach today. Jitender, this has been a fantastic conversation. I've really enjoyed it. Thanks so much for coming on the show and super excited to continue this over time. Where are the best places for folks to follow your work and follow what you're doing at Starburst?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":57,"time":"51:33","seconds":3093,"speaker":"Jitender Aswani","text":"Yeah, I'm on LinkedIn and follow us at Starburst also. Just go to starburstdata.com. You will find us. We have quite a few engineering blogs that talk about context. In fact, there is a a pretty long 56-page blog on how we are investing in context layer at Starburst. So just, I would say find us on LinkedIn. And yeah, Conor, thank you so much for having me here. I really enjoyed this conversation. I think this is timely.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs","episode":66,"guid":"ba1c5cde-4a76-4c5a-9651-5f67bd51c371","episodeTitle":"Data Federation, Not Centralization, Is What Enterprise AI Needs | Jitender Aswani, Starburst","publishedAt":"2026-07-16","segmentIndex":58,"time":"52:05","seconds":3125,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, I would love to continue this. I think we just started scratching the surface of what we could have covered here. There's so much depth here, and I really appreciate you bringing it to the show. Everyone who is tuning in, thank you for joining us today, and make sure that you've subscribed. Check out chainofthought.show for all the details, episode transcripts, and much more. And subscribe on your platform of choice, and if you're on YouTube, turn on that notification bell. Thank you all so much, and we'll see you next week.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/66-data-federation-not-centralization-is-what-enterprise-ai-needs/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software","episode":65,"guid":"15785f70-6de8-425c-9626-08fd7be133b6","episodeTitle":"You Can't Secure an AI Agent with Software | Charles Guillemet, Ledger","publishedAt":"2026-07-01","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Charles Guillemet","text":"Securing an agent is not something possible. People are telling differently. I think they are either a little bit too optimistic or maybe they don't understand what we are talking about. This is not something that is really possible. The only way to have very strong security guarantees is to have the dedicated hardware. And when it comes to your money, the incentives for the attacker are very high. So hardware will be part of the equation.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software","episode":65,"guid":"15785f70-6de8-425c-9626-08fd7be133b6","episodeTitle":"You Can't Secure an AI Agent with Software | Charles Guillemet, Ledger","publishedAt":"2026-07-01","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:30","seconds":30,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"AI agents are already managing our email, they're scheduling meetings, they helped me write this talk track, and in some cases they're executing transactions, including financial transactions. Giving an agent access to your systems means delegating execution power inside your security perimeter. And the current model, with software permissions, API keys, trust scopes, has no physical verification layer. Maybe it should. Welcome back to Chain of Thought, everyone. I am your host, Conor Bronsdon. Today's guest has spent over a decade at the intersection of cryptography and hardware security. He runs one of the world's most unusual security teams, a group whose job it is to break into his own company's products before attackers do, which is always a blast. And his view on AI agents and enterprise systems is differentiated from most security leaders that I've talked to. It's not add AI to the defensive stack, though we may talk about that a bit. It's rather that the problem is architectural, and you need hardware in the loop. Charles Guillemet is CTO of Ledger. He built and leads the Donjon, Ledger's internal offensive security research lab, and before Ledger he spent a decade in cryptography and hardware security. including designing secure integrated circuits at Tiempo and working at France's national research organization. Charles, welcome to Chain of Thought. Are you joining us from France today?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software","episode":65,"guid":"15785f70-6de8-425c-9626-08fd7be133b6","episodeTitle":"You Can't Secure an AI Agent with Software | Charles Guillemet, Ledger","publishedAt":"2026-07-01","segmentIndex":2,"time":"1:54","seconds":114,"speaker":"Charles Guillemet","text":"yes definitely i'm currently in France","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software","episode":65,"guid":"15785f70-6de8-425c-9626-08fd7be133b6","episodeTitle":"You Can't Secure an AI Agent with Software | Charles Guillemet, Ledger","publishedAt":"2026-07-01","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:57","seconds":117,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Fantastic. Where are you based? I actually don't know.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software","episode":65,"guid":"15785f70-6de8-425c-9626-08fd7be133b6","episodeTitle":"You Can't Secure an AI Agent with Software | Charles Guillemet, Ledger","publishedAt":"2026-07-01","segmentIndex":4,"time":"2:00","seconds":120,"speaker":"Charles Guillemet","text":"i can't i cannot see it","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software","episode":65,"guid":"15785f70-6de8-425c-9626-08fd7be133b6","episodeTitle":"You Can't Secure an AI Agent with Software | Charles Guillemet, Ledger","publishedAt":"2026-07-01","segmentIndex":5,"time":"2:02","seconds":122,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Ah, okay. Yes, that is very fair. And I think that speaks to the security postures that you have to handle in your work.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software","episode":65,"guid":"15785f70-6de8-425c-9626-08fd7be133b6","episodeTitle":"You Can't Secure an AI Agent with Software | Charles Guillemet, Ledger","publishedAt":"2026-07-01","segmentIndex":6,"time":"2:13","seconds":133,"speaker":"Charles Guillemet","text":"yeah OPsec is important yeah","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software","episode":65,"guid":"15785f70-6de8-425c-9626-08fd7be133b6","episodeTitle":"You Can't Secure an AI Agent with Software | Charles Guillemet, Ledger","publishedAt":"2026-07-01","segmentIndex":7,"time":"2:16","seconds":136,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, yeah. Well, let's dive right into it then. You know, I mentioned at the start of the show, but why do you think hardware backed authorization is necessary in today's world?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software","episode":65,"guid":"15785f70-6de8-425c-9626-08fd7be133b6","episodeTitle":"You Can't Secure an AI Agent with Software | Charles Guillemet, Ledger","publishedAt":"2026-07-01","segmentIndex":8,"time":"2:28","seconds":148,"speaker":"Charles Guillemet","text":"Let me try to rewind a little bit. I think AI is a huge opportunity. It unlocks plenty of new things. It unlocks plenty of new science, new research, new use cases, and it's incredibly exciting. But when it comes to security, it's equally an opportunity and a threat. I like to say that a system is secure if you achieve to create an asymmetry between attack and defense. If breaking your system would cost more dollars than what you could retrieve as an attacker, then your system is secure. It's the economic angle. You also have the timing angle, like if you need 10 years to brute force my password and in 5 years my account is no longer relevant, then the system is secure. And before AI, like maybe before last year, finding vulnerabilities was extremely difficult and expecting them was also very difficult. And with AI, all of this is changing rapidly. And now we see that finding vulnerability is very easy. You just have to prompt code and ask it, please find a vulnerability on this service and make no mistake. The make no mistake part is important. And just like this, it will find availability. So if you're a security researcher, you will have more enhanced prompt and better security harness. Basically, finding availability is trending towards zero, which is an issue because now we're recreating this asymmetry between attack and defense. is incredibly difficult and we are seeing this. We are in the very beginning of a big security armageddon. We can see this in the blockchain world, in DeFi, but also in every single IT. Maybe last year, extracting the database of any e-commerce website, no one would do it because it would have taken, I don't know, two months for a talented security researcher and at the end, you would have sold the database for 5,000 on darknet, no one would do it. Now, it costs zero, so people are doing it, and we can see that there are plenty of data leaks every day, unfortunately. So, I would just want you to set the scene, like we are at the beginning of this very big security armadillon, and recreating this asymmetry will be very difficult. When it comes to your question, definitely agents are very convenient. You just prompt something very high level, you give the high level targets, and then the agent will just figure out and execute what you just asked. But then you have like two main issues. The first one is the alignment problem. Like how do you make sure that what you prompted actually matches with what the agent is executing. And this one is definitely not easy to solve just because the English language and the French language are not the mother of the country. is ambiguous. So translating something ambiguous into something deterministic is difficult. Secondly, agents are not deterministic at all, there are plenty of heuristic, probability, so sometimes they will do exactly what you wanted, sometimes something slightly different. So this is really the alignment program. And the second one is a simple security product. Like as soon as you want to ask your agent to do stuff with your data or with your value, then it means that you need to provide credentials, API keys, or even your like 24 words when it comes to crypto. And by the way, I think really the crypto blockchain is the native rails for agents. Today, Visa and Mastercard are winning in terms of volumes, it's pretty clear, even if like stablecoin volume is increasing a lot. But the main reason why Visa and Mastercard are winning is just because they have the distribution and also that the UX is more convenient. But an agent doesn't care about the UX. An agent will optimize for speed, for cost, and for that, blockchain is definitely more efficient, faster, cheaper, you also have composability and so on. So there is no doubt that the agentic economy will be on blockchain alerts. And finally, what I wanted to say, so you want to your agent to do stuff on your behalf but you don't really want to give your credentials to your agent because featuring an agent is not something possible. People who are telling this telling differently I think they are either a little bit too optimistic or maybe they don't understand what we are talking about. This is not something that is really possible. So what we would like to do is rather like delegating rights to an agent so that the agent can do stuff freely within this context. So you could define policies and so on so that the agents would respect those policies. And above, outside your desk policies, then you might want to, as an interviewer, to verify what kind of transactions, we talk about financial transactions, your agent would like to execute. And then there are two main security problems there. On one side, you have the policy engine. It's not that easy to do like to design a secure policy engine. For various reason, again, it's difficult to create intents. like the formalization of intents and make sure that an intent actually match with a specific action. So creating this formalization is not that simple.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software","episode":65,"guid":"15785f70-6de8-425c-9626-08fd7be133b6","episodeTitle":"You Can't Secure an AI Agent with Software | Charles Guillemet, Ledger","publishedAt":"2026-07-01","segmentIndex":9,"time":"9:24","seconds":564,"speaker":"Charles Guillemet","text":"It's doable, but not that simple. And secondly, when you approve a virtual policy, how do you trust the system that will approve this policy? A good idea would be to use like a hardware-enforced signature so you are using your ledger device for instance to review the policy and sign it so that the policy engine is certain that this policy comes from you and then that your agent can access to a resource that belongs to you. So this is a model. And the other one would be like the keys themselves. So again, like I wouldn't give my private key, my crypto private keys to an agent because for sure I would lose everything that is behind this private key. Either it would do like action that I didn't want it to do. or like an attacker would be able to prompt inject the agent so that it reveals the keys and this is not something like hypothetical there are plenty of stories like this on the net on the internet and recently on twitter there was an account that was prompt injected just by tweeting to the to the account and i don't remember how much money they lost But again, so you really need to create like a strong field with a position giant that is harder and fast. And when it comes to actually sending transactions, then you need another. For me, the good model is really this. So you create a formalization of intents and policies. And if you are able to formally prove this thing, like this policy engine, I think it's clearly better. You also need guarantees that this policy engine is properly executed. So for that, you have like two main ways to do that. Either you implement the policy engine inside a secure enclave, inside the niche system, a TEE. TEE is not that secure, but it's better than full software. or you could even use like a zero knowledge proof to do that. Like zero knowledge proof is quite efficient to provide you integrity guarantee on the execution of something and policy engineering in particular. And when it comes to the keys, the keys who should live in a secure enclave so that whenever the agent is proposing an intent, it goes through the policy engineering and the secure enclave receive this approval that comes from the policy engine and then the security enclosure can simply issue the signature for the transaction. So here you have like a full end-to-end security design where you have like a strong guarantee in terms of alignment. You are sure that the agent is doing an action that is inside authorized action. And the second one is security, like the keys stay in an enclave and the enclave doesn't sign anything if it's not approved. So this would be like the ideal design in such setup. But again, it also depends like what you want to secure. If you just want to secure, I don't know, $5","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software","episode":65,"guid":"15785f70-6de8-425c-9626-08fd7be133b6","episodeTitle":"You Can't Secure an AI Agent with Software | Charles Guillemet, Ledger","publishedAt":"2026-07-01","segmentIndex":10,"time":"12:51","seconds":771,"speaker":"Charles Guillemet","text":"per day because there is not less than $5 maybe you can put the private key that secure your $5 inside the agent because you don't really care if it's stolen. It's also a trade-off between what you want to secure and how much you spend into the design of the security of your agent.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software","episode":65,"guid":"15785f70-6de8-425c-9626-08fd7be133b6","episodeTitle":"You Can't Secure an AI Agent with Software | Charles Guillemet, Ledger","publishedAt":"2026-07-01","segmentIndex":11,"time":"13:19","seconds":799,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"You brought up quite a few very interesting and I think important concepts here that we should drill down on a bit. So one is this idea of the change from developer experience to agent experience and how this enables new payment rails, particularly in the crypto space. To your point, one of the challenges for a lot of call it like non-native economy approaches to exchanging economic value on the internet, it has been that the experience has been odd for folks. They're saying, oh, this isn't the MasterCard Visa experience I expect, as you put it. And, you know, transitioning to something like Solana, Bitcoin, whatever, whatever you pick here can be just a, it's got a learning curve, if nothing else. whether or not the actual application is developed well, whether or not the rails are developed well, even if they're faster, even if they have cryptographic benefits, there are challenges there. But now with the preponderance of content out there about how to operate, I'll take a Solana wallet here as an example because it's one of the more popular currencies that has high speed and low transaction cost. And It is, there is a whole concept now around agentic capital that has been discussed because we are now designing for agent experience and they are able to go execute these things on our behalf. But to your point, this creates a lot of risk. And you brought up another really interesting concept here around this idea of zero knowledge proofs and actually ensuring that agents have authorization or humans and their agents have authorization in these areas. Can you expand a bit on what's actually required to validate success here and maybe talk a bit about how at Ledger hardware is built into that workflow of validation.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software","episode":65,"guid":"15785f70-6de8-425c-9626-08fd7be133b6","episodeTitle":"You Can't Secure an AI Agent with Software | Charles Guillemet, Ledger","publishedAt":"2026-07-01","segmentIndex":12,"time":"15:12","seconds":912,"speaker":"Charles Guillemet","text":"Yeah, sure. So for the first item, I think it's really important to highlight this. Today, we don't even notice this anymore, but we are using always the same rails when it comes to payment, financial transaction. just because we are used to it. But they are far from perfect, that you cannot do a wire transfer outside of weekdays, outside of business hours. It takes several days, it's costly, like all of this, same with Visa, MasterCard and so on. But we are just very used to it and this is the reason why we use them. But when you want to use your money, you don't really care about this raise, you are just used to it. But now, tomorrow, you are going just to prompt to your agent to buy a flight ticket. And you won't say to your agent, please use this credit card or this account or whatever. You just want to pay, okay? And the agent will just like create this abstraction layer so that you don't even have to think about where your money is and so on. You just want your money to be secure and your transfer to be fast, cheap. You don't want to have high fees and so on. And the complexity of the UX and the learning curves and so on, You don't care. It's the problem of the agent. And by the way, for the agent, it's not a problem. All of this is the same. Visa is not more complex or more simple than using Sobana or whatever L2 on Ethereum when it comes to paying anything. So let's really think like this. And when it comes to the benefits as a user, it's faster, cheaper, composable, and so on. Everything is better. So on this, I think there is really no doubt, it's really just a matter of time, but agents will use wallets everywhere to finish the transactions. And the second is really about having guarantees in the execution of code. At the end, this is really what we want to achieve. And at Legion we are using a secure enclave for two different things. So a secure enclave is a piece of hardware that has different guarantees. And the main guarantee is on one side you have the confidentiality of the secret that you put inside. So at Ledger, we are using two types of security. We are using like a secure element. This is like a tiny integrated circuit that you find in your passport or in your banking accounts, but also in Ledger products. For those who can see the video, this is one of the Ledger products. And inside this, there was a secure element. It's a very tiny chip and an integrated circuit that is completely designed for security. You don't have much flash, you don't have much RAM, you just have strong security guarantee because the attack surface is very small and also because it was designed for security. So we are using SecureElement and on the other side, we are using HSM. HSM stands for Hardware Security Module. So it's basically like a secure server that we are putting in some dedicated data center. And the same appearance like a very small attachment phase dedicated for security. And we are using both of them. And SecureEnclave, we are using them to have like two properties. The first one is the confidentiality of the secrets. So secrets are generated inside the enclave and they never leave the enclave. Like it's really, it's an enclave, like the secrets stay there. And even if you have like, as an attacker, even if you have a physical access to the C tournament or the HSM, it would be like incredibly difficult to extract the secret. So they are really designed for that. and secondly like the cryptography is implemented inside the enclave so that as a user as a developer you don't have to ask the enclave the secret to compute cryptography you just ask for cryptography services please assign this transaction please encrypt this message please so this is really like the the model And the second property that we like with enclave is the fact that you have a strong guarantee that the code that is executed inside the enclave has not been tampered with. And this is quite important because in most attack vectors the thing is you have like some program that runs on the machine and quite often like very often you have an attacker that has another process and try to change the way the main program is running so that the program is doing like something else and that's that's the That's really how the hack works. When you are trying to access a database, what you're going to do is to talk with the backend and inject specific vectors so that the program that is managing the database behaves differently. And then, as an attacker, you can access the database. So this is really the idea. And the secure enclave is very good for that because it really prevents another program, another attacker to modify the execution of the program. So this is really the kind of guarantee you have. The program that is running inside a secure enclave, you have execution integrity guarantee that are given by Jango. However, you can also use a zero-knowledge proof to do that. A zero-knowledge proof is a very interesting cryptographic tool. At the beginning, it was designed for a very different reason. Zero-knowledge proofs were designed in order to create a proof of a property without giving you information on the data itself. So let me give an example. With zero-knowledge proof, I can prove that I'm 18 without revealing my birthdate. So this is the kind of property that you can achieve. And as an observer, I just have to verify your proof, and I'm certain that you didn't lie. There are plenty of such examples. For instance, I would like to compare my salary with yours, but both of us don't want to share our salary. So what we can do is ask a prover to create a zero-knowledge proof of this comparison. So this is really what zero-knowledge proofs are designed for. And the thing is, you can You have this anonymity property, which is great, but you also have trusted execution guarantee. For instance, the simple program I mentioned at the end is a program that is doing a comparison. But at the end, the proof gives you a strong guarantee that this comparison was executed properly. No one can lie. So that means that you could use a Zillow Edge Proof to create some kind of virtual processor where the execution will be done with a proof. And at the end, as an observer, even if you don't really know what happened in the processor, but it's not the property that we are looking for, you don't really know what happened in the processor, but you have a strong guarantee that it happened properly. No program try to inject anything inside in order to change the execution of the program. So this is really the property that is interesting in the zero-knowledge proof. Today at Ledger we don't really use zero-knowledge proof directly. We are like interacting with different blockchains that are using the Zero Knowledge Proof for different reasons, for both reasons I mentioned, sometimes it's for privacy, sometimes it's for compressing the states of the blockchain in order to have a better scalability of the blockchain. So we are interacting with the Zero Knowledge Proof, but we don't use the Zero Knowledge Proof at the device level yet. But this is an interesting area of research and we have a couple of teams that are that are working on this and for instance for the design of the policy engine that I mentioned before. This could completely run inside a zero edge proof system so that at the end, you just have a proof that your agent is actually authorized under your policy sets to do this specific action. And you don't even have to verify all of this. You have just a proof, you give it to the resource that will sign a transaction. So this is a possible design that we are working on.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software","episode":65,"guid":"15785f70-6de8-425c-9626-08fd7be133b6","episodeTitle":"You Can't Secure an AI Agent with Software | Charles Guillemet, Ledger","publishedAt":"2026-07-01","segmentIndex":13,"time":"24:37","seconds":1477,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, I think zero net or zero knowledge proofs are really fascinating for this space because it just enables so much behavior that you couldn't otherwise. I mean, you brought up early in the show OPSEC where you're like, yeah, I'm in France, but I can't really share my location. And I think it's interesting to think about these concepts and then apply them to the idea of this agentech economy, which we, I think, most folks on the show are convinced we are heading into or already starting to see. We're seeing agents rolled out around the world. People are using them all the time. They are increasingly being put into products where people don't even realize it's necessarily an agent on their behalf, depending on, you know, how involved they are with it. And being able to prove the agent's capabilities and capacity to do something is really important. So, I mean, the example I've always loved is the idea of like, If I have a safe that you can observe me unlocking, you can see that I've managed to unlock the safe, whether or not you actually get to see the combination. And I can now validate that, hey, I have the ability and the right to do this, or at least I have the capacity to do it, whereas you don't necessarily need to know how explicitly it gets done. And this is really important when we're thinking about the operational security for agents. And given how non-deterministic they are, given their ability to go out and cause trouble, as well as do a lot of very positive things for us, I think it's very important. So while I think there are many people who are listening to this show, or I think probably most, who are thinking, okay, yes, agents are going to take over, we're going to use them for so many things, totally agree with that. I'm not convinced, and maybe my listeners will prove me wrong on this, that they all agree with us that the next phase of the economy is going to include agents driving financial transactions and in particular driving financial transactions on the blockchain. is something I've started to dig into and I'm becoming increasingly convinced, I think you're farther along than I am on this, that there is a need for much faster, much more efficient payment rails for the agentic economy. And it seems like some of the technologies we have in the blockchain and crypto space are going to enable that, both from a validation perspective, it feels like it's almost been waiting for this agentic economy, in my opinion. But I know there are listeners who are going to push back on that and say, oh, this doesn't make sense. What would you say to folks who are in on AI and are saying, yes, agents are where we're going, we're building them, we're interested, we think this is happening, but aren't ready to take the next step and say, okay, financial transactions are going to be managed by agents too. And by the way, the payment rails need to change to enable that. How would you communicate with that maybe skeptical audience?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software","episode":65,"guid":"15785f70-6de8-425c-9626-08fd7be133b6","episodeTitle":"You Can't Secure an AI Agent with Software | Charles Guillemet, Ledger","publishedAt":"2026-07-01","segmentIndex":14,"time":"27:24","seconds":1644,"speaker":"Charles Guillemet","text":"Yeah, sure. So first of all, the reason why people could be skeptical that agent won't do a French transaction for them, this reason is just about security. This is just a matter of security. If you say an agent buy this flight for me, and at the end, you are sure that the agent will do whatever you wanted and won't lose your money, then there is no problem with that. You prefer saying to an agent that you want to fly to New York on the 25th of this month, rather than going on the websites and selecting all of this that takes time, navigation and so on. So if people are reluctant to do that, just because they have a doubt that something could go wrong. So definitely, and they are correct. For now, it's possible to do it, but not that safe. So we, as a community, as a negotiating team, we need to make this experience safer and more secure. And when we will get there, people will be like more at ease to do that. And it completely reminds me, so I'm starting to be old, it completely reminds me the beginning of the 2000 when people were reluctant to buy anything online. That was the case. People were like, oh, I'm going to lose my credit card information, I'm going to lose money, no one will deliver my package at home. So that was really the atmosphere at the time. And now, no one has any doubt about that. This is the normal way to buy stuff on the internet. So, people, humanity needs time to process, to understand how new technology works and so on. The thing is that now everything is going faster, so the adoption will be clearly faster. So you have the security and the safety part. And to your point about blockchain as a payment rail, a financial rail, So again, what's the reason why people have doubts today? So either it's a matter of security maybe, or it's more a problem of knowledge, like they don't know how blockchain works, how wallet works, there is some friction, what about the UX?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software","episode":65,"guid":"15785f70-6de8-425c-9626-08fd7be133b6","episodeTitle":"You Can't Secure an AI Agent with Software | Charles Guillemet, Ledger","publishedAt":"2026-07-01","segmentIndex":15,"time":"29:59","seconds":1799,"speaker":"Charles Guillemet","text":"But first of all, people have no idea how Visa and Mastercard works. You don't have to understand the blockchain to use it. You don't have to understand Visa to use it. There is this first thing. And second, when it comes to the UX, which I think is the biggest issue today, So people are reluctant using blockchain just because the U.S. is different, it's new, it's not always perfect, I have to admit it, and we are trying to improve it obviously at Ledger, but today it's not completely perfect compared to the traditional payment rails, let's say. But again, when it comes to the agentic economy, your agent doesn't care at all about the UX.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software","episode":65,"guid":"15785f70-6de8-425c-9626-08fd7be133b6","episodeTitle":"You Can't Secure an AI Agent with Software | Charles Guillemet, Ledger","publishedAt":"2026-07-01","segmentIndex":16,"time":"30:52","seconds":1852,"speaker":"Charles Guillemet","text":"Your agent will optimize for cost, and blockchain costs nothing, but you can send 1 million, 1 billion, whatever number of dollars you want, everywhere around the world for less than a cent this is something that's possible with poaching not in the future like now like if you have a billion you can send it send it to mexico in less than a second for less than a cent","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software","episode":65,"guid":"15785f70-6de8-425c-9626-08fd7be133b6","episodeTitle":"You Can't Secure an AI Agent with Software | Charles Guillemet, Ledger","publishedAt":"2026-07-01","segmentIndex":17,"time":"31:16","seconds":1876,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"But to your point, the challenge has been, is that secure? Can we trust it? And that's where I think there's plenty of innovation happening, crypto space, but also is it accurate? Am I sending it to the right wallet, for example? And so I think this is where exactly what you're talking about as far as, you know, we have to be considering what's going to block agents and blocks humans from trusting those agents. So I love that you're drilling in on that. Sorry to cut you off.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software","episode":65,"guid":"15785f70-6de8-425c-9626-08fd7be133b6","episodeTitle":"You Can't Secure an AI Agent with Software | Charles Guillemet, Ledger","publishedAt":"2026-07-01","segmentIndex":18,"time":"31:39","seconds":1899,"speaker":"Charles Guillemet","text":"No, this is a very, very fair summary. We need to fix the safety and security problem so that as a human, you have strong guarantees that your agent will do exactly what you want and not something slightly different. So this is the first thing. And for the rest, it's just a matter of adoption. And adoption will be very fast. And again, at some point, humans won't even know on which rails it happens. Because by the way, there is no one blockchain. There are thousands of blockchains. Some blockchains are faster. so other are stronger more secure so again this would be completely abstracted and and at the end at the end also there was no questions of liquidity like for instance you want to have like you want you want to get yield on the dollars that you have on your wallets and you don't know like where the best yield is so maybe you can ask your agent to do like the best safe yield and you want to you want to get yield on 10 000 and this is your prompt And as long as it's safe and secure to do this transaction, the agent will find that today on Arbitron, the Morpho vault number 32 gives you 8.3% with limited risk and that's it. You sign the transaction and you don't have to care about it. Because today if you want to have a yield on your money and your bank account, you have a big problem to understand that everything is bound or steady. But people trust more because they are more used to it and so on. So I really think it's a matter of changing the mindset, but also at the same time that making sure that we have safety and security in this process, which is not completely the case yet, we have to admit it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software","episode":65,"guid":"15785f70-6de8-425c-9626-08fd7be133b6","episodeTitle":"You Can't Secure an AI Agent with Software | Charles Guillemet, Ledger","publishedAt":"2026-07-01","segmentIndex":19,"time":"33:44","seconds":2024,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, you mentioned that you think this process is going to happen really fast, where we're just going to see this back-end transition as agents go, oh, well, this is just more efficient for us. It's more useful. But there is this trust barrier, right? Which is why we're talking about security, why we're talking about safety. how do we solve this trust barrier? Is it just down to, oh, we have to redesign our security systems and add hardware in the mix with this hardware authorization? Or are there software security approaches that can get us most of the way there? When do folks need to take the leap to this deeper design? And how is that design going to actually enable this agentic capital explosion? Because I think there is some risk that you know, we are set up to have this explosion of new ways of paying, or at least ways of paying that have not been as popularized, where agents are now using all these payment rails. But there are too many security and trust concerns for that explosion to happen. So there's a blocker for at least quite a while until they figure that out.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software","episode":65,"guid":"15785f70-6de8-425c-9626-08fd7be133b6","episodeTitle":"You Can't Secure an AI Agent with Software | Charles Guillemet, Ledger","publishedAt":"2026-07-01","segmentIndex":20,"time":"34:49","seconds":2089,"speaker":"Charles Guillemet","text":"So, that's the reason why we created Ledger at the end, because we strongly believe that the only way to have very strong security guarantees is to have like dedicated hardware. And it seems that we were right, like the story gives us right, let's say. So yeah, so this would be like my premise. However, sometimes having something that is fully software might be sufficient depending on the use case. So maybe you could give your agent direct access to, I don't know, your Instagram account. It depends on how important it is for you. And without hardware guarantees,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software","episode":65,"guid":"15785f70-6de8-425c-9626-08fd7be133b6","episodeTitle":"You Can't Secure an AI Agent with Software | Charles Guillemet, Ledger","publishedAt":"2026-07-01","segmentIndex":21,"time":"35:42","seconds":2142,"speaker":"Charles Guillemet","text":"if your Instagram account is very important, maybe you don't want to do that by the way. So it really depends on the level of security that you expect. And depending on this, if you really don't want to lose access, you really don't want to lose credentials or money, then you will need at some point to have the hardware router trust in the mix. And when it comes to your money, the incentives for the attacker are very high, so hardware would be part of the equation.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software","episode":65,"guid":"15785f70-6de8-425c-9626-08fd7be133b6","episodeTitle":"You Can't Secure an AI Agent with Software | Charles Guillemet, Ledger","publishedAt":"2026-07-01","segmentIndex":22,"time":"36:15","seconds":2175,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So I almost want to say. that what you're doing by adding hardware into the authorization layer for this is injecting a determinism layer. Because we've talked a bit about how agents are non-deterministic, that topic has been discussed ad nauseum, but they're capable of incredible things because they can do things we didn't expect, which is both great and something we need to govern and guardrail against. And so I think what you're saying is, okay, let's inject a level of determinism where there are simply constraints based off of the hardware authorization that is provided, where an agent has to operate within those constraints. Because while we have implemented governance frameworks, observability, and all these things, getting to the 100%","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software","episode":65,"guid":"15785f70-6de8-425c-9626-08fd7be133b6","episodeTitle":"You Can't Secure an AI Agent with Software | Charles Guillemet, Ledger","publishedAt":"2026-07-01","segmentIndex":23,"time":"37:08","seconds":2228,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"accuracy that we would expect for large financial transactions, or let's say at least 99%, maybe nine nines, is truly impossible when you're looking at non-determinism if there is not some sort of hard barrier in place.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software","episode":65,"guid":"15785f70-6de8-425c-9626-08fd7be133b6","episodeTitle":"You Can't Secure an AI Agent with Software | Charles Guillemet, Ledger","publishedAt":"2026-07-01","segmentIndex":24,"time":"37:25","seconds":2245,"speaker":"Charles Guillemet","text":"Yeah, I think it's another way to put it, definitely hardware gives you determinism. Determinism because like everything is set in stone with the hardware, like it's physically set in stone.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software","episode":65,"guid":"15785f70-6de8-425c-9626-08fd7be133b6","episodeTitle":"You Can't Secure an AI Agent with Software | Charles Guillemet, Ledger","publishedAt":"2026-07-01","segmentIndex":25,"time":"37:38","seconds":2258,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Or","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software/#t-24-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software","episode":65,"guid":"15785f70-6de8-425c-9626-08fd7be133b6","episodeTitle":"You Can't Secure an AI Agent with Software | Charles Guillemet, Ledger","publishedAt":"2026-07-01","segmentIndex":26,"time":"37:38","seconds":2258,"speaker":"Charles Guillemet","text":"[OVERLAP] And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software/#t-24-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software","episode":65,"guid":"15785f70-6de8-425c-9626-08fd7be133b6","episodeTitle":"You Can't Secure an AI Agent with Software | Charles Guillemet, Ledger","publishedAt":"2026-07-01","segmentIndex":27,"time":"37:38","seconds":2258,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"metal, but you know.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software","episode":65,"guid":"15785f70-6de8-425c-9626-08fd7be133b6","episodeTitle":"You Can't Secure an AI Agent with Software | Charles Guillemet, Ledger","publishedAt":"2026-07-01","segmentIndex":28,"time":"37:40","seconds":2260,"speaker":"Charles Guillemet","text":"the second one is the execution integrity guarantee that I was talking about before, that you can have with a secure enclave or with zk so that's that's also why i like zk because it provides like determinism plus um like execution integrity bounty like but at the end the hardware will be will stay necessary at least for secrets","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software","episode":65,"guid":"15785f70-6de8-425c-9626-08fd7be133b6","episodeTitle":"You Can't Secure an AI Agent with Software | Charles Guillemet, Ledger","publishedAt":"2026-07-01","segmentIndex":29,"time":"38:08","seconds":2288,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So I think the counter argument some folks would use is that, oh, hardware is expensive and, you know, wait a second, we're just talking about, you know, speed for agents. And now we're slowing things down by adding this additional layer. And in my head, it's like, okay, well, maybe that's reasonable for transactions that are a certain size initially, right? To your point where it's like, oh, if it's five bucks a day, do I care that much? Maybe not, depending on my level of risk factor or my level of care. But there is certainly like a minimal viable version of this too. How are your team at Ledger currently using hardware authorization internally? I think that could be informative to understand.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software","episode":65,"guid":"15785f70-6de8-425c-9626-08fd7be133b6","episodeTitle":"You Can't Secure an AI Agent with Software | Charles Guillemet, Ledger","publishedAt":"2026-07-01","segmentIndex":30,"time":"38:52","seconds":2332,"speaker":"Charles Guillemet","text":"Yes, it's a very good one. For instance, we are using internally ledger devices when it comes to authenticate to critical systems. So inside the ledger device, ledger devices are very well known for storing and managing your crypto. But at the end, inside the device there is an operating system that allows you to load different applications. And so Bitcoin, Ethereum, Solana are applications, but you also have non-crypto related applications. such as passkeys for instance, like security key, it's the name of the application, and it implements passkey. So passkey is a standard that allow you to authenticate yourself, not choosing a password, which is always weak, but choosing a symmetric program. And so we are using internally hardware to do that. You can also use your hardware to sign your commits as a developer, for instance. and it's always a good idea if you want because like I was talking about the security problem that we have because of PI and this problem is everywhere we talk about like vulnerability research it's a big one but also the integrity of your supply chain is a big one like how are you sure that the commit that was pushed on production comes from the developer you we wanted to And in order to do that, the way to ensure this is to sign commits, sign release. And I put here, when we just sign commit or releases, like this releases, not every single commit are signed with hardware, they are all signed, but not with hardware, not all with hardware. When it comes to releasing a critical piece of code, software, we are using our devices internally to verify what we are signing when what we are going to push to production. And it's very important because otherwise, like an attacker could, I don't know, pretend being ledger and create like a violation of our firmware or our wallet or whatever. Even worse, like an internal like your attacker could be hired, recruited by ledger and then try to do insider threats and for this we have like columns internally so that's to avoid that no one can push Everything is in production without the review of others at reporting the code. So we have different codes for the different things. And all of this is made at Ledger using our devices, our hardware devices. Because this is the only way to outpick a high level of productivity.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software","episode":65,"guid":"15785f70-6de8-425c-9626-08fd7be133b6","episodeTitle":"You Can't Secure an AI Agent with Software | Charles Guillemet, Ledger","publishedAt":"2026-07-01","segmentIndex":31,"time":"41:44","seconds":2504,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, I think it's really interesting to think about in that scenario where like, yes, it's you're still at risk for a bad actor within the company who gets access to hardware devices. But the point is they have to physically get access. It's a lot harder than having someone simply spin up a thousand or tens of thousands of A.I. agents to, you know, go attack different areas. It's it makes it so things like the mythos challenge that I think many of us are thinking about as that has been uh, running around the security industry, uh, are much more difficult where, okay, even if you string together some vulnerabilities, if there is a physical wall here, can you actually solve for it? And we're seeing these concepts before, right? Like we've talked about having multiple points of validation. There's a reason we have thumbprints or, you know, face locks and these other types of validation that are trying to use your own physical attributes. Now some of those are scammable in a variety of ways. They are a variety of ways harder or less hard to beat. But there are also this idea of like physical pass keys that you're starting to see anyone who's using like Google Password Manager is starting to see pass keys as an option to sign in. And, you know, obviously there's synced software passkeys you can use, and there's also hardware device bound passkeys. But can you talk a bit about really what makes the hardware authorization approach that Ledger is taking? more secure and why, I guess, like, maybe talk a little bit about, like, how it enables this deeper level of security and where you think people should be using it today. Because I want to kind of paint a picture for our listeners around, okay, as we make this transition into an agentic economy, if they have come along with us in this story and they're like, okay, I'm buying it, you know, how should they be thinking about this today and what it enables for them?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software","episode":65,"guid":"15785f70-6de8-425c-9626-08fd7be133b6","episodeTitle":"You Can't Secure an AI Agent with Software | Charles Guillemet, Ledger","publishedAt":"2026-07-01","segmentIndex":32,"time":"43:42","seconds":2622,"speaker":"Charles Guillemet","text":"Okay, I'm going to try to answer this. It's not easy because there is no definitive answer to that. It's really a matter of understanding your threat model, your trust assumption, classifying data, classifying risks, and depending on all of this, then you will define different level of friction and security to secure the different assets. So that would be my answer. So, you know, to give it a bit of flavor to that, something that is a low value in terms of like confidentiality, integrity, and so on. might be only secured by software and access control. Something that's starting to have a bit more value, you might want to use like a hardware with like only hardware that can automatically sign so that you have like a keys like a AshiCorp Volt for instance like this kind of Or I could have consigned data on your behalf so that the keys are secure, but not the execution. So it's a bit more secure. So it really depends on the use case. Where? The next level would be, this is something that is very important to lose the confidentiality or to load GSS to the specific data, then you will need such a hardware with a screen where you verify what you are doing. And the last one would be the same thing, using hardware with secure display, but in a multi-signature setup. Meaning that in order to sign the release of the firmware of ledger devices, this is exactly what we are using. We are using devices with a screen where we can verify what we sign in a multi-signature setup. So meaning that we need to reach a core arm in order to sign the release of the firmware before putting it in production. So I tried to take four examples where you have a different level of security depending on the asset that you want to protect. But at the end, this classification is very personal. This is my view on the classification of previous assets. So maybe another CTO would see things differently. And same. And from the personal standpoint, I was talking about like Instagram, for instance, the access of my Instagram account. I don't have Instagram, but my Instagram account wouldn't be that important. So maybe I would only put like the same password. We couldn't be that ugly because of imposter, like scammers and impersonation and so on, but still. But when it comes to, I don't know, my crypto, then I would add like a malicious setup or kind of thing. But again, so to me, when it comes to my Twitter account, I have 2FA and the second factor of authentication is hardware. So again, it really depends on the value that you put behind UltraSecure.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software","episode":65,"guid":"15785f70-6de8-425c-9626-08fd7be133b6","episodeTitle":"You Can't Secure an AI Agent with Software | Charles Guillemet, Ledger","publishedAt":"2026-07-01","segmentIndex":33,"time":"46:55","seconds":2815,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Charles, I really appreciate you bearing with me because I know I've given you some very broad questions that you have answered extremely well. And I have to credit you. I had quite a few more specific ones in the talk track that we kind of talked through for the episode. But because you have brought up so many interesting, wide ranging concepts, I think we have this this fascinating thought piece that is kind of formed within this around what does the agentic economy look like? you know, will it be on new pavement rails? I think we both think probably yes, at least over time. And how will that structure look like? Because it's pretty clear to anyone who is dealing with AI and security today that yes, you can now patch vulnerabilities and catch them. But if a mythos-like model or something stronger, it gets out into the wild and begins to go after folks, defenders are simply going to be overwhelmed. You can spin up more attackers, you can now find vulnerabilities that you wouldn't otherwise be able to find. You can now map them together in ways that give you access you shouldn't be able to have. And there is simply a larger attack surface growing than any team can watch for right now. There's a problem to be solved here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software","episode":65,"guid":"15785f70-6de8-425c-9626-08fd7be133b6","episodeTitle":"You Can't Secure an AI Agent with Software | Charles Guillemet, Ledger","publishedAt":"2026-07-01","segmentIndex":34,"time":"48:09","seconds":2889,"speaker":"Charles Guillemet","text":"And the asymmetry I was talking about earlier doesn't exist anymore, because the counter, you know, could be, oh yes, like the defend, attackers have like LLN, but defense as well. Yeah, but that means there is no asymmetry anymore. That means there is symmetry. And this symmetry is not for the, is not on the advantage of the defense. because the attacker has only to find one vulnerability while the defense needs to be like 100% secure. It's very asymmetric to the advantage of the attacker. So this is really the new reality.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software","episode":65,"guid":"15785f70-6de8-425c-9626-08fd7be133b6","episodeTitle":"You Can't Secure an AI Agent with Software | Charles Guillemet, Ledger","publishedAt":"2026-07-01","segmentIndex":35,"time":"48:44","seconds":2924,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, especially with the proliferation of deep fakes, whether it's on voice, video text, there's just a scale and quality to that that is making traditional verification approaches unreliable. Even if you have multi-factor authentication already, how long is that going to hold up in the face of the ever-expanding attack capacity? It's going to be a really interesting thing to watch, but it's also potentially very dangerous for us from a financial standpoint. We've talked a little bit on this show, not a ton, about the concept of scams for folks, whether it's like, it's very easy for someone to clone my voice, especially because there are so many podcast hours of me now out there. They can easily clone my voice. They can call my grandmother or my bank. They can use that. And the validation systems that we are trying to use to catch up to that are struggling. They'll all say, I invested in a great startup, Scam.ai, that's doing great work here. I mean, there's just so much out there. It's hard to stay on top of it. And I love that you are taking this unique and interesting approach to how to solve it. Charles, thank you so much for joining us today. It's been fantastic having this conversation. I'm hoping our listeners are going to have a ton of value and interest out of this. What are some closing thoughts you want to share with the audience about how they should be thinking about the new agentic economy and how to stay safe in it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software","episode":65,"guid":"15785f70-6de8-425c-9626-08fd7be133b6","episodeTitle":"You Can't Secure an AI Agent with Software | Charles Guillemet, Ledger","publishedAt":"2026-07-01","segmentIndex":36,"time":"50:04","seconds":3004,"speaker":"Charles Guillemet","text":"It's a difficult one to conclude. So we said plenty of like worrying things. I strongly think that we are entering into a difficult era where we will have a wave of security issues. I strongly think that it's going to be difficult at least for the coming months and years. So that means that every company needs to raise the bar for security and not only companies but also individuals. Unfortunately, we're going to have to get better at security. Stop using the name of your cat as your main password for every single services that you are using. use hardware, the second factor of transpiration when possible and so on. I cannot say it enough. But on a more positive note, because everyone is seeing the threat into AI. For me, AI is the most fascinating technology that we saw in my whole life. It's really exciting what is possible with AI. There's plenty of opportunities. All the progress that we made in research in only a few months with the last Frontier model is already amazing. So I'm really excited to see what kind of innovation we will do with AI in the near future. So I'm really more excited by the opportunity that AI is providing, rather than the issues that come with. And security is a big one, but let's see the positive side of things.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software","episode":65,"guid":"15785f70-6de8-425c-9626-08fd7be133b6","episodeTitle":"You Can't Secure an AI Agent with Software | Charles Guillemet, Ledger","publishedAt":"2026-07-01","segmentIndex":37,"time":"51:49","seconds":3109,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Love it. And I highly recommend folks who enjoyed this episode to check out Ledger at ledger.com. And I would also recommend Charles' Twitter account. Charles has some really interesting content on there. He's rather popular, though he may not say it himself. And I believe that's at P3B7 underscore, if you want to find him on X. And listeners, if you enjoyed this one, you should maybe subscribe to our newsletter at newsletter.chinothought.show. There's a ton more great content from guests like Charles and maybe some interesting thought pieces around the agent economy and what's to come. Follow us there. And of course, like, subscribe, rate and review across every platform. We appreciate you so much. Charles, thank you so much for joining us. It's been fantastic having this conversation and really appreciate it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software","episode":65,"guid":"15785f70-6de8-425c-9626-08fd7be133b6","episodeTitle":"You Can't Secure an AI Agent with Software | Charles Guillemet, Ledger","publishedAt":"2026-07-01","segmentIndex":38,"time":"52:34","seconds":3154,"speaker":"Charles Guillemet","text":"Thank you for having me.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/65-you-cant-secure-an-ai-agent-with-software/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Jiaona Zhang","text":"Here's where I see things go wrong. You have executives at a company saying, everyone must use AI. And oh, by the way, AI is now in your performance review. Yes, of course, it creates fear because everyone's token maxing because they're like, I've been told to use AI. And I'm like, no, you should use AI efficiently. If you use AI to go like redo the font on this deck when you could have just clicked a button, it is not an efficient use of your tokens. But if you used AI and you took something that took humans five hours per week, an agent did in five minutes, that is Time back.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:35","seconds":35,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Companies are spending billions of dollars on AI tooling, but tracking ROI is proving challenging for many. We need to solve this gap, and that's what we'll be discussing today on the Chain of Thought podcast. I'm your host, Conor Bronsdon. Today's guest is Jay-Z, CPO at Laurel, which she describes as test subject one, a company using its own product to understand exactly where AI is and isn't working in every function. Before Laurel, Jay-Z built products at Airbnb, Dropbox, Webflow, Linktree. She's been teaching product management at Stanford for nearly a decade now and has a clear perspective on how today's organizations need to change, not just what AI tools need to be added on top. Jay-Z, great to see you. Welcome to Chain of Thought.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":2,"time":"1:24","seconds":84,"speaker":"Jiaona Zhang","text":"Thanks for having me, Conor. Excited to be here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:26","seconds":86,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"my distinct pleasure. It's always fantastic to catch up with you and talk to experts like yourself. So I'd love to just dive right in and start getting the benefit of all your knowledge. Why do you think most organizations are struggling to understand where AI is actually working for them? And what does it take for them to actually find out?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":4,"time":"1:47","seconds":107,"speaker":"Jiaona Zhang","text":"It ultimately comes down to visibility. So when I think about this, you know, all of us have our cloud accounts, our chat GPT accounts, you know, whatever tool of choice you're using in your organization. And we're all doing our best to figure out AI. And I think that if you really think about AI adoption, a lot of times people are just running at it, thinking, hey, I need to go, I need to do more. I need to figure out how to take the thing that I just did yesterday and I want to like AI-fy it. But what I don't think people are doing enough of, two fronts. One is really understanding where there is efficient gains to be had. So where is your real time that can be brought back? Where is your real revenue that can be driven? And how do you actually go do the workflows that will actually achieve those goals as opposed to, well, it felt really good. It felt really good when I asked AI XYZ things and it came back with something. But very few people are actually looking at the quantification. And this is getting more and more important as you think about You know, tokens today are probably the cheapest that they're ever going to be and the cost is going to go up. And so you're really thinking about this calculus of, you know, where do I actually spend the money on the tokens and where do I not? And you do, therefore, want it to be efficient. And for a lot of people, they don't have a way to really measure that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":5,"time":"3:14","seconds":194,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I do want to push back slightly on this narrative that tokens are certainly the cheapest they're ever going to be. Like, yes, there is subsidizing that's happening. But are we certain that there aren't going to be major advances around efficiency that enable tokens to be much cheaper in the future? I do think we're gonna end up spending more of our time because we'll be using a lot more of them. But I guess I'm not 100% convinced that the per token cost is as cheap","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":6,"time":"3:39","seconds":219,"speaker":"Jiaona Zhang","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-5-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":7,"time":"3:39","seconds":219,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] as it's ever going to be.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-5-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":8,"time":"3:40","seconds":220,"speaker":"Jiaona Zhang","text":"I think that's fair. I don't know if the per token cost is the cheapest, but I think that today a lot of organizations are not thinking about their token spend regularly and they're getting hit with their bills. And it's very hard to even understand, well, I basically, you know, equip my team to go run rogue and they can do whatever they want. And really the mandate is very much like use AI everywhere.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":9,"time":"4:05","seconds":245,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] TokenMax.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-6-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":10,"time":"4:05","seconds":245,"speaker":"Jiaona Zhang","text":"[OVERLAP] I think that's a mandate at, yeah, token max. And the measure of success often is are you just doing it versus are you using it efficiently? And so I think what I'm really trying to get at is you're going to pull into this efficient frontier really quickly.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-6-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":11,"time":"4:20","seconds":260,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, totally agree with that. And I think we're seeing some headlines around this, right? Where companies are suddenly saying, oh God, we spent how much last month? We need to adjust. And there's definitely a difference between, let's call it the LinkedInification of AI, where people are like, oh, I rebuilt my workflow with AI and look at how cool this is versus, okay, is this actually delivering ROI for us compared to token spend, compared to time spent? And it can be challenging to do this identification. So I'd love your perspective on how companies should start. I mean, let's say they've just been in this experimentation phase that maybe they're now in production, but they're not necessarily measuring the return on investment for them. Where should they start?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":12,"time":"5:03","seconds":303,"speaker":"Jiaona Zhang","text":"I think really around visibility. And so how do you get visibility in terms of your spend versus the outcomes that you're actually trying to drive? And so this is actually taking the time to go and quantify what are those outcomes? Are you trying to drive revenue? Are you trying to drive time allocation efficiency? What is it that you're really trying to drive? And I think one of the big things that people aren't doing enough of is taking the time to even articulate what that is. And so going back to, you know, started this a little bit with this idea of Laurel and being, call it test subject number one. So maybe let's just take a moment and talk about like, what is Laurel and how can we be test subject number one? You know, the way to think about Laurel is, you know, we're this desktop agent. that is able to capture what you're doing digitally. And as a result, when you think about the applications, one really amazing application that a lot of companies use today is this idea of timekeeping and time tracking. So how do you take all the work that you're doing and instead of the lawyer spending the hour at the end of their day trying to really map out, okay, this is for every six minute increment that I've worked, how do I summarize? my work product to a client and into an invoice, we can do that in such a way that is really seamless, right? And so that is one application of how do you take time data, essentially, and use it in a really, really useful way and be a real painkiller for customers. Another application of it is if you know what you're working on, you're able to then take that data and say, OK, well, I know, you know, I know what applications I was in. I know what I was doing in those applications. I also know the general workflow of how I'm going about getting my work done. And when you have the workflow and you have the time against those workflows, and you also have the end outputs, you're able to take all those data points together and get a really good picture of, okay, well, am I actually spending my time in the right ways? Am I spending my time on high leverage work? Or am I actually doing really low leverage work that could be automated? And so that is a little bit of the context here of how can we use our own technology to really understand how how tools are being utilized across our organization and really understand the efficiency of AI adoption and AI usage.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":13,"time":"7:24","seconds":444,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It's so interesting that we're I think rapidly having this conversation around adoption efficiency and ROI because I would say it's something that's been a theme of the last call it 25 years or at least the the aughts into the second decade of 2000s where we saw I mean the origins of Salesforce and CRMs really upgrading themselves. And this question in many businesses of why are we doing XYZ? Is it giving us the ROI we wanted? We've seen major focus from businesses working to identify how effective different activities are, whether that's the data and attribution push in marketing and sales, which is a stellar example of this for anyone who's been on the go-to-market side, but also the software engineering layer with software engineering intelligence, DX for engineering teams, something I worked on quite a bit at Linear B. There's plenty of conversations around this. And now we've added this new input of all the tokens we're spending, these new workflows, And in many ways, it is a proxy for our digital employees that we've created, these agents that are going out and running workflows for us. Is it really many of the same problems just now applied to a new technology that is emulating what humans were doing or adding to human workflows? Or do you see this as something where it's a very disparate problem that needs to be addressed in a significantly different way?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":14,"time":"8:53","seconds":533,"speaker":"Jiaona Zhang","text":"I do think there are a lot of parallels. I just think that the need to quantify has been greater today than it has been in the past. And so, for example, in many ways I think of agents today are just extensions of the workforce, right? So you used to have 10 humans working on something, and now you have, let's call it, five humans, but each one of them has hundreds of agents. It's just an extension of that person and what it is that they're doing. So I think that the core principles around, it's really interesting, Laura, we talked about this concept of there's a thinker, or there's an owner, or there's a captain. We use the word captain actually quite a bit. And then there's all these other people, and all the other agents that are extensions of that captain to get that particular initiative done or to achieve that goal. And so when you think about it like that, there are a lot of the same parallels. You used to have just a lot of humans working together on one team. And then it was like you had a lot of humans plus a lot of tooling, software working together. And now you have a lot of humans and you have some software and they have agents, which is a type of software, sort of. Right. So I think of it as an extension of some of that. What I do think is really interesting is like, again, what is human versus what is like more of an agent? Right. Humans, I really think about you have to provide them context, clarity and motivation. Now, of those things, what are the same in an agent? You still have to provide them context. You have to provide them clarity. In fact, I think that context and clarity are even more important because, you know, you don't have the human judgment piece to it, but you probably have to, I mean, you do have to think much less about motivation. You know, agents just run all the time versus when you work with real humans, they have real emotions and, you know, interpersonal working dynamics, which are all really, by the way, really important. I'm a big believer of you have to preserve what is human and really amplify what is human and let humans do the best pieces of that versus you actually all of us want to take all the things that were really tedious and full of drudgery and get that off our plates. Right. And so a great example is if you think about the sales process. There's so much of the sales process that is 100% tedium, drudgery. You're doing the same thing over and over again. To your point, I think you brought up a CRM. Nobody is thrilled to be entering data into a CRM. And often you actually can't get the right data because no one has done it because it's so annoying. And as a result, rev ops can't function. There's so many problems. What humans want to be doing and what is uniquely human is, you know, reading a room. physically in person, knowing when a customer relationship is worth the revenue. Or maybe there's a trade off that has to happen that's like intrinsically human and has all these like complex pieces to it. That is what you want humans to be spending their time on. And what you want, you know, AI to be doing is all the other pieces where no human was getting true joy out of doing that. And so to me, it's really just the shift, the shift of work, the shift of time. And really excitingly, I think when you think about it in a very systemic way, you're able to really optimize a system to get your output and get it faster.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":15,"time":"12:18","seconds":738,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"so many good points in there. One, I love that you brought up this idea of humans and agents working in parallel. It's simply where things are going, it's where things are today. But to your point around motivation, the other side of this is You know, even if we were hiring more headcount that we needed to in certain points in the past, it was a lot harder to scale up that headcount. Like humans are expensive to hire, yes, but they're expensive in time to hire as well. Whereas spinning up an agent today is exceedingly easy and we can create hundreds of agents that are going out and spending the company's money through tokens, even if they're not touching financial transactions or anything else. So it was a lot easier for that spend to just balloon very rapidly without very little oversight, particularly because of how the contracts are set up. So I think that's a great point about why we need to have more focus here. I also love that you brought up kind of the leadership and management skills that are required for humans and for AI agents. Because while, to your point, there is less motivation needed today, though maybe you can do a little prompt motivation, there's so much import to context and clarity and then that is like such a crucial management leadership skill. So there's I think actually a lot of advantage for some leaders today who go out and say, OK, let me go work with a bunch of agents and extend my work and extend my team because they have some of these skills, which I I'm curious if you've been experiencing that with the captain approach that you mentioned.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":16,"time":"13:43","seconds":823,"speaker":"Jiaona Zhang","text":"Yeah, I say this often, which is I think sometimes the best users of AI and often, you know, the best builders of these like agent fleets, whatever you want to call it, are previous managers in the sense that, you know, as a manager, you're really forced to think about orchestration, right, delegation. How do you get all of the pieces to come together when you cannot do every single piece? There's a saying that a lot of people have for their reports who transition from being an IC to a manager for the first time. And it's, you know, what got you there won't get you to the next point. And really a lot of it is what excellent ICs are good at is doing the thing. And then when they get to a manager, they actually have to like delegate the thing. Now, what I think is really exciting is you can, actually today, I do believe that you can't be in a world where you're just like, I'm hands off. And in fact, I even think about how I construct my team this way. You know, I'm not hiring, like there are no directors. There are no people who are just like, I'm just like here to manage. But the art of management that you have to build through practice is really helpful. And when you're thinking about, well, how do I go even audit my system? Right. And how do I go build my agents and delegate to my agents? And how do these agents interact with each other? And how do the agents interact with a human? So all of that skill set is really, really valuable. And so that's why I do believe in, you know, the management piece, at least that mindset gives you a really strong leg up. But then ultimately, it's all about full accountability, which goes back to what I was saying earlier on captains. The reason why we love the term captains and we use it very often here at Laurel is because the idea of a captain is you know, that accountability, right? Like, there is one throat to choke, one person responsible. And what's exciting now is you can say, well, okay, if I'm the captain, I want to get from point A to point B as quickly as possible and as efficiently as possible. How might I do that? Should I be shipping code myself and all the All our PMs here, all our designers, ship end-to-end, features end-to-end. They are shipping to production. They're not just prototyping. And because when you think about, well, that's really efficient. I have the customer context. I have the deep understanding of the problem. And I'm able to take that knowledge and I'm well versed enough in design and all the other pieces that I can take this thing end to end. And wherever I get stuck, this is where again, LM's are excellent at answering your questions and filling in the holes, especially when you have kind of the scaffolding. And so that is where you can be so much more productive.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":17,"time":"16:25","seconds":985,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, I think this idea of enabling individuals within the org who have deeper context on a problem to go work with agents to solve that problem more directly is such a fantastic benefit of this current AI-enabled era. And it makes me think about a really great piece I read from James Stanier a few years ago about the importance to executives of staying in touch with the bare metal of the company. So actually talking to customers, actually getting out there and understanding what's happening on the front lines. And he positioned it in this piece, and I think it was very relevant at the time, this was like three, four years ago, of, okay, well, You need to be actually ensuring that you are diving into the details and context so you don't lose touch with that, with what's actually happening at the edges of the company. And at the time, I think for executives, this was much more about like, okay, like, let me understand the sales process. Let me understand what our customers actually need. This is still very important. But there is now an opportunity for decisions to be made at those front lines, I think, because you can delegate more authority and execution capacity to these individuals to say, OK, yes, go run. You don't have to go work with a PM and a whole team of engineers and a designer. One of those people could potentially ship a feature, to your point. And there are pros and cons to some of this. Stakeholders still matter. I'm not trying to say we need to get rid of all stakeholders all the time, though I think there's open discussions around org design that we need to have. And I guess my point is, how are you thinking about these different functions now as we move into this era where a PM, a designer, or an engineer can all ship a feature, or a director or executive can ship a feature if they think it's valuable? How does this new team structure look? Is it a lot of skilled generalists who are seeking context and managing agent fleets? Are you getting rid of these, these management layers? It sounds like what's the approach you're taking.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":18,"time":"18:23","seconds":1103,"speaker":"Jiaona Zhang","text":"I'll talk about a couple of principles here. And so the first one is this idea of being really lean, right? And I'm a big believer that, you know, constraints will breed creativity. And so when you actually are lean, you push your team to really think through, well, how might I get this done with what I have, as opposed to, okay, well, I could ask for X, I could ask for Y. So I think that's one piece, which is this principle of leanness that is really important. The second principle here is, how can one person, and this goes back to leanness, take something as far as they can go? And the reason why I think that's really important is because that actually helps you understand kind of your efficiency frontier. If you are able to say, look, you know what, my system is clean enough that someone can come in here and ship this feature end to end without being deeply technical and have to go and debug, some of the tech debt that's in here, then you know your system's really clean. I think that's a great litmus test to say, is my system ready? And what you're seeing a lot is you're seeing a lot of places, a lot of products where parts of their tech stack are not ready for agentic development just because of the way it was built over the years. And so you see a lot of companies have to take time to really kind of clean up that tech debt so that agents can actually be really effective on the code base. And, you know, we do this often. I have this analogy I use with my team. It's around this idea of, like, gardening. And so, you know, is there a part of the garden that needs actual work to be done? And then in the future, when someone else comes in and wants to, like, go plant something, they know, okay, well, the daffodils go here, the plants go here, the trees go here. then it doesn't feel at the end of the day like a chaotic mess, right? And so it's really interesting this idea of, okay, well, where can you play? Where can you go from A to B almost end to end? So I think that's the second principle of like, if you take something end to end, that's what you're tasked to do, you will hit up on the constraints. And as a result, you'll have a very systematic way to know what you actually have to burn down in order for this to be a truly functional system. So that's like the second principle here. And then this last principle is this idea of like, what is your expertise and how do you offer that expertise to the organization in a way that's scalable? And again, I think all of these pieces come down to two concepts really, which is like, you know, efficiency. and systems, right? And so when you think about this piece, the best designers, their jobs, they should start thinking about their jobs as how do I create the design system? The same way a lot of people are talking about this, have been talking about this in engineering, it's going from I'm building the feature to being like I'm building the system through which anyone, whether it's a PM or someone on customer success, sales, support, whatever it is, they can be shipping. That's the new mindset. So now they're starting to shift into how can I be an architect versus how am I coding, you know, quote unquote, by hand every single day. And that is the shift where you're thinking about systems as opposed to I got to get that thing done, I got to get it done one time. How do you create the environment in which doing it again is much easier?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":19,"time":"21:48","seconds":1308,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Let's drill down on this environment and architectural question a bit because I think the idea that even your CS team members or really anyone in the organization can ship code is such an interesting one and one that is evolving for the top companies in the world. I mean, we saw Block make this decision last year with shipping AI agents to 12,000 plus employees. Great episode on that that we put out earlier this year for anyone who wants to check it out. Obviously, your org's doing it where everyone has the opportunity to ship a feature end-to-end. How do you enable team members who aren't highly technical to do this work? What are you doing internally to set this up?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":20,"time":"22:29","seconds":1349,"speaker":"Jiaona Zhang","text":"Yeah, it's interesting because there is the, how do you get to what I call like a level one, and then how do you actually get to more pro mode? So the level one is literally giving people tools, right? So if you're like, okay, I, you know, it's really difficult obviously for a CSM customer support, you know, specialist who doesn't, sorry, customer success specialist, right? Who doesn't actually know how to code. How do we get someone like that to be able to build something? ship something, ship a feature. The first thing is just tooling. So, okay, what is out there? Are you using, you know, back in the day it was Cursor? We use Devon frequently. Some people just go ahead and use Claude Code. Whatever the tool of choice is, I think that's step one. That's like level one. But what we saw is, OK, we did enablement. We enabled the team to ship. We taught them how to do it. And there was a spike in usage. And by the way, incentives are also really important here. And so when you say, hey, the first person who ships something is is rewarded, right? Like that motivates behavior. But more than that, I would say that the motivation honestly is quite intrinsic. So being able to understand what is the thing that was frustrating this function for a long time and how do you let them feel freed from that frustration is a big part of how you even do some of the system design. So for example, again, our customer success folks are amazing, excellent. They are on the front lines. They know exactly what our customers are feeling and wanting. And so the core, besides just being like, here's an incentive. The first person who ships gets a prize, which does work in the very short term. The core motivation is I am sitting with a customer. They're, you know, they're confused by something or they really wish this thing was in the product. How might I enable that and create this moment of delight and usability? That's the core motivation that really gets an excellent customer success person going, right? So understanding that you're tapping into the core motivation, giving them the tools is almost step one. But then what we figured out or we learned is We have to then create a system that makes this something that is doable on an ongoing basis. And what we found was, again, we had a spike of people who were shipping. And then very soon we ran into the next step, the next bottleneck in the process. And again, I think a lot of systems design is literally you're like, you design the system, you run stuff through the system. There's a bottleneck, you undo the bottleneck, and then you find the next bottleneck in the system. And that is literally what you were doing all the time. And I think engineers today probably feel that way quite a bit. But going back to the situation where you're having non-engineers ship, what we quickly found was the next bottleneck in the process was, well, what constitutes a good product decision or a good design decision. So you have everyone saying, well, I want to add this and I want to add that. you're gonna have a very kind of like disjointed product. It's not gonna feel cohesive. It's not gonna feel high craft. How do you actually, what do you do in that scenario? And so therefore, that's when we went back to, again, systems thinking, okay, well, the role of the PM is to be able to enable anyone to understand where can they play and where can they not. Again, same garden analogy. So in the parts of, our administration backend where it's really clean, really clear. It's easy to add a toggle here and there. And we believe that there are new toggles to be added, right? Or like it's easy to add integration and there are integrations to be added, go for it. In the parts of the product where we're doing a pretty big overhaul in the core usability of it, if you're adding a little thing here and a little thing there, it's just gonna get more confusing. And so being clear on like the rules of engagement, being clear on, okay, like, let's actually take the time to articulate the system. That is a really key component. And then finally, going back to what we were able to do at Laurel, which we started the conversation on, is we can actually look at the time that is being spent on any given task. And so we can say, well, you know, what was really confusing for the CSM is this step in the process. When we said you have to do this in order to ship the thing, this caused a lot of friction. And we saw that so many people got stuck on the step, or they just kind of stalled out here. Being able to look at that data and then say, OK, well, that data point is what we're going to bring back into our system to go fix it, that is really, really helpful.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":21,"time":"26:59","seconds":1619,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It's fascinating to see this transition occur where initially I think a lot of AI automation was just in mostly structured work and often highly structured work. And now we're seeing it start to extend to some unstructured work and get used as an extension for humans who are doing that unstructured work. And we're also seeing at the same time the way teams are constructed shift to account for this. I won't pretend to know where the future is going on this, but it's very clear we are in the midst of this massive shift in how work happens and that it is not yet over. We have quite a ways to go, I think, in all this, particularly if some of the predictions that we alluded to at the start of the show around token usage and potentially costs in one direction or other come to fruition. We're going to see people having to continually reimagine and rethink their approach to some of these workflows they've developed, especially if they were built, as you put it, without much consideration for cost. So we've talked throughout this conversation about re-architecting teams for this new era. What would be your advice to leaders who are listening to this and have maybe started the process of re-architecting their teams or are realizing they need to about how they should think through re-imagining their team for an AI-enabled way of working?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":22,"time":"28:30","seconds":1710,"speaker":"Jiaona Zhang","text":"Yeah, I think there's a lot of, so this idea of how do you change the way you work, I think there's two pieces to it. The first one is whenever you do any kind of change management, you kind of want people to get to the first step as quickly as possible. And with that, I really think about how do you just pick one workflow? One thing where you go and you ask someone, hey, what is the one thing that you spend a lot of time doing that you really wish you didn't have to do? This great analogy of timekeeping. I wish I didn't have to timekeep. That's really tedious and mundane. Or I wish I didn't have to enter things into a CRM. Or I wish I didn't have to move pixels around here or whatever it is. I wish I didn't have to do unit testing. So what is the one thing where you're spending a lot of time And you go to that that org, that person, whatever it is, and you say, well, help me understand what that looks like. And, you know, if you have an ownership mindset, you really can actually sit down with that person if you're AI, you know, PILD, ANative, whatever you want to call it, you can actually take that thing that that person is really struggling with and build them a better workflow. So I really encourage that on the bottoms-up approach, meaning you go out, you understand the one thing, the one workflow that is really time-consuming, and you automate that, you make that better, and you get people to start to experience a mindset shift where they say, oh, I actually should embrace this because why would I Like, why would I do the thing that was taking me forever over and over again? This feels great. It feels great for this work to be taken off my plate. That's how you get the mindset shift to happen, you know, for everyone that you're trying to drive in this direction. Simultaneously, I think you need to go from the top down. So that's the bottoms up approach. And then from the top down, the way I think about it is you have to understand your ontology of work. Or put another way, where are you spending your time? And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":23,"time":"30:23","seconds":1823,"speaker":"Jiaona Zhang","text":"the way I would think about this is at the end of the day, all of us can say the shape of X function looks something like this. And now that's not static, meaning that's going to change. And in fact, the way the technology is going, that's probably going to accelerate faster than it's ever accelerated before. I would say for many people, the workflows In law, for the longest time, the workflows in law look the same. And the workflows in accounting look the same. The workflows in consulting, private equity, they all look the same for a very long time. Now with AI and just the capabilities of these LLMs, a lot of people are saying, hey, well, I don't need to spend my time writing this deposition anymore. I don't need to spend my time doing this very complex thing for your taxes anymore. This part I can automate. Now, this other piece I can't automate. It really requires my judgment. right. And so there's from the top down it's really important to look at your ontology of work to really understand what do we believe are all the buckets that comprise what I believe this function should be doing to drive the outcomes that we want. And then we can say OK we're going to in mass try to automate this whole chunk. And when you do that bottoms up and the tops down together, that's how you're going to really drive behavior change. So that's the advice I would give when it comes to how do you get an organization to start to move and to really become much more native AI first and just adopters of these AI tools. And then simultaneously, when you think about the makeup of the team, it's really around the shifting of the work, the shifting of the time and energy spent from low leverage to high leverage.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":24,"time":"32:09","seconds":1929,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"One of the problems with this that we're experiencing is going back to the leadership piece we brought up earlier, where, look, as leaders, folks have been spending a lot of time on clarity, on enablement, but also motivation. And now we're moving to an era where we're not having to do as much of that motivation work when it comes to agents. But I feel like there's a challenge where team members, our human team members we work with day to day, are struggling sometimes because not only is there this external pressure of AI is going to take your job and you have to do X, Y, Z to stay ahead. So just, you know, there's this external stress that many folks are feeling. But there is this pincer movement. So I agree with you in your perspective, like change needs to come for a successful org transformation, probably from the bottom up and top down to actually build an AI-enabled team. But it means there's a pincer movement on folks who are not prepared or are feeling uncomfortable about it, where this pressure hits them externally. It hits them from their bosses often. And then they have team members who they're seeing accelerate, and maybe they don't feel ready for that, or they just don't feel comfortable with it yet. And I think that's less so the listeners to the show for the most part. But I do get folks occasionally in the comments who are are saying, ah, you know, like this is going too far or, you know, this idea is out of a field. As A.I. is changing what our jobs are and how they function. What does it mean to keep your professional identity for individuals who are facing this?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":25,"time":"33:47","seconds":2027,"speaker":"Jiaona Zhang","text":"Yeah that's a great question. If you if you just look at history I would say that there have been many times where our jobs changed because of technology. Right. So back in the day where manufacturing was at a certain point supply chain was a certain point. Our jobs looked very different. People were in factories actually assembling things. And then when we had machinery that did it, people didn't have to do that job anymore. And so I really think of it as a shifting as opposed to a replacement or a loss. And I think that the best way to really embrace this moment in time, which to me, by the way, feels one of the most exciting because it feels like we can empower people in ways that we never could before. How do you get into a mindset of I want to go do more. And now I can. And my job is not to feel worried about the loss. My job is to go run towards an opportunity. Now I want to this is not on just the individual to figure out. It's on an organization to figure out. Right. Because if you are basically here's where I see things go wrong. You have executives at a company saying, everyone must use AI. And oh, by the way, AI is now in your performance review. And, and yes, of course, it creates fear. You're like, well, okay, I just, I have to just use AI. And by the way, it's really tied to the very first topic that we talked about, which is everyone's token maxing, because they're like, I've been told to use AI. And I'm like, no, you should use AI efficiently. If you use AI to go like redo the font on this deck when you could have just clicked a button, that is not an efficient use of your tokens. But if you used AI and you took something that took, you know, humans five hours per week, and you took that and agent did in five minutes, that is time back, right? And so I think a lot of it has to do with the way that the leader shows up to help people embrace change. And so instead, if the leader didn't, if this leader just said, use AI, you're gonna be judged for it, Good luck. And I expect that to happen tomorrow. That is where I think a lot of the fear is coming from. And by the way, that is truly how a lot of leaders have pushed AI onto their organizations. So I understand why there is this sentiment. But instead, if the leader said, hey, look, I have actually done some, you know, deep work here. I understand the time that is being spent in order to achieve, you know, deals getting closed, you know, support tickets being addressed, this, you know, this product line being produced, whatever it is, whatever outcome it is that you're trying to drive. And if the leader came in and said, look, I know how much time it is taking of each one of you to go do that thing. Now, I still need you because I need you to do this other thing that we haven't even had the time or the resources to go do. And, or I need you to go explore this new area that, you know, again, we haven't had staffing. It's just really ironic because a lot of the best companies, they keep hiring because they have so much ambition and things to do that they need more people. It's not like there is a lack of opportunity. And so to me, it's that reframe. The reframe is. Here's what I actually need you to do. This is a new opportunity I need you to go after. And this other thing that you were doing, I've looked at the data and I know that you spent a lot of time doing it. Here's a really easy way for you to go adopt a workflow to make that go away. And so a big proponent, a very easy thing that I think a company can do, and we do this at Laurel, is How do you have a repository of skills? And back in the day, you heard the word playbooks all the time, right? You'd be like, well, what's the playbook for sales? What's the playbook for design? What's the playbook for whatever, whatever function? There was like a playbook. And now the really beautiful thing is you can take these playbooks that used to live in these, you know, PDFs, whatever, documents, office documents that somebody wrote and spent many hours on and then nobody followed because did you remember to open the document? You did not. Instead, you can now get a skill delivered to you, right? And you can actually get that push to you at the moment where it makes sense for you to say, ah, this is what I should be doing. And I'm a new employee. I had no idea that this is what I was supposed to be doing. And instead of, again, me reading an onboarding doc that I never read, reading the playbook that I never read, it is actually in time and is something that the organization can contribute to collectively. So, you know, I would say that for the past couple years, it was all about the foundational models. It was all about the infrastructure. And now I feel like the race, like the thing that we're all trying to figure out is the business context, the context layer. And how is that shared as opposed to locked away in one individual's, you know, like whatever, co-work instance?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":26,"time":"38:53","seconds":2333,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] 100% agreed, and I'll say this has been a theme for us on the podcast the first half of this year in 2026. Anyone that's listening for the first time, I recommend if you wanna dive into the context layer, we did a great episode with Jerry Liu from LlamaIndex, where he talks about moving away from being an agent framework and the success they had there into just focusing on unlocking PDFs and being as good as they can via DocumentOCR and turning documents enterprise context. We also had episodes with Neo4j, Oracle and others, We talked about agent memory and unlocking enterprise data, error byte. So definitely recommend checking those out if you want to dive more into the context layer of a whole series. I should probably create a podcast playlist","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-21-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":27,"time":"39:34","seconds":2374,"speaker":"Jiaona Zhang","text":"[OVERLAP] Just,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-21-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":28,"time":"39:35","seconds":2375,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] when","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-21-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":29,"time":"39:35","seconds":2375,"speaker":"Jiaona Zhang","text":"[OVERLAP] just","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-21-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":30,"time":"39:35","seconds":2375,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I have a chance","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-21-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":31,"time":"39:35","seconds":2375,"speaker":"Jiaona Zhang","text":"[OVERLAP] on it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-21-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":32,"time":"39:35","seconds":2375,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] about this. Yeah, I think you brought up a really good point, not just on the context layer piece, which I think is absolutely crucial. Like context and memory are where there's so much focus happening today because As a lot of value aggregates to the frontier models and source models, in some cases, for folks who are looking at efficiency, we're all realizing, oh, we need to nail context, we need to nail data, we need to nail memory to make the most of these. And I think we're seeing, you know, agent harnesses evolve very rapidly in a way where it's like, oh, you know, this agent framework is less valuable than it was six months ago. And this is to me, I agree, extremely exciting. There is so much change happening here. People are not that far ahead of you. I think this is the really cool thing for me is like even those of us who may feel a month or two behind at sometimes, that is because these concepts are so new that you can dive in and learn today and be good at them as good as many of the best people in the world at them very rapidly. There is a massive opportunity here. If you lean in and embrace it, which I would say, look, we've been told for decades that growth mindset is important, that lifetime learning is important, that you have to embrace change. I think it's just these concepts are more important than ever because there is more leverage being applied by agents and by AI. I look at this kind of across the board, which is AI is leverage. It doesn't always work for you. You have to enable it. It's not always going to be a magic bullet, but it can help you learn faster. It can help you do more things. It helps me ship more LinkedIn posts and more podcasts and all these different things","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-21-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":33,"time":"41:11","seconds":2471,"speaker":"Jiaona Zhang","text":"[OVERLAP] It","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-21-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":34,"time":"41:12","seconds":2472,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] beyond","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-21-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":35,"time":"41:12","seconds":2472,"speaker":"Jiaona Zhang","text":"[OVERLAP] has never been","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-21-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":36,"time":"41:12","seconds":2472,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] coding.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-21-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":37,"time":"41:12","seconds":2472,"speaker":"Jiaona Zhang","text":"[OVERLAP] easier to learn, truly,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-21-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":38,"time":"41:14","seconds":2474,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yes,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":39,"time":"41:14","seconds":2474,"speaker":"Jiaona Zhang","text":"which","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":40,"time":"41:14","seconds":2474,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"yes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":41,"time":"41:15","seconds":2475,"speaker":"Jiaona Zhang","text":"is why I think it's so exciting. It'd be one thing if everything was changing and it was really hard for you to get up the curve, but it's actually never been easier to learn.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":42,"time":"41:24","seconds":2484,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I huge shout out to notebook LM by Google. I have to say one of my favorite products of the last couple of years. And I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":43,"time":"41:31","seconds":2491,"speaker":"Jiaona Zhang","text":"Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":44,"time":"41:31","seconds":2491,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"use it for every episode for prep calls. Actually, I'll have my, uh, research agent will build me notebook LM so I can go explore that. And then I'll talk to the guest as well, but it's a nice way to go about it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":45,"time":"41:42","seconds":2502,"speaker":"Jiaona Zhang","text":"Yes, I love the prior two. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":46,"time":"41:44","seconds":2504,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So I want to ask you about this learning piece because, uh, learning in this new era is it feels easier than ever for, for so many folks, but it also feels intimidating for others. How, how are you enabling, um, your students at Stanford and then also how are you enabling your team members to, to learn on these tools?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":47,"time":"42:06","seconds":2526,"speaker":"Jiaona Zhang","text":"Yeah. It's. twofold again, because I think a lot of times problems are not as simple as just do this one thing. And usually actually the pairing of like two things that have tension with each other is where you get the best result. So I'm a big believer of the core fundamentals have not changed. And in fact, they are even more important. And I'll give you just one very specific example. One of the most important things I teach students And anyone who is hoping to do the product role is this idea of you have to start in the solution space before you move to, sorry, you have to start in the problem space before you move to the solution space. And what that basically means is there's so many people who get really excited about a thing, an idea. What if we just built X? Or I thought about this new flow, this new thing, and it's gonna be amazing. And if you just skip to that and build, you're going to be It's going to be very unlikely that you're going to be successful because in many ways when you're doing that, you're just throwing darts in a room and hoping it's going to land on a bullseye. But you don't even know where the dartboard is hung or, you know, the target is hung. You don't even know where it is, how big it is, what the bullseye looks like. But instead, if you start in the problem space and you say, well, this is what success looks like. This is what it means from a business perspective. This is what it means from a user perspective. then you actually have drawn your target. And then the chances that you will throw a dart, which is a very hard thing to do, throwing a dart and hitting a bullseye, hard thing to do, which is why, again, like first products, almost always never succeed. You gotta iterate until it's good, right? And so that is a very, very like one-on-one concept, maybe the most fundamental concept of product of all time. That has never been more important because it has been Today, you can build more things that you could have ever built before. And as a result, you're basically like, I have this machine gun that just sprays darts everywhere, right? And so you're like, okay, should I just spray them? And that is not gonna make your chance of hitting the target better. In fact, you're just gonna use a lot of darts. And again, this is my note at the beginning, Sure, token costs will go down, but if everyone's shooting darts everywhere, like that's just a lot of effort, a lot of energy spent, like literally physical energy spent when you think about like data centers and compute, right? And so that is so important. And so when I think about teaching students, teaching anyone, how do you make sure that the one-on-ones, the most important fundamentals are totally internalized? On the flip side, you know, what is really interesting is your ability to have superpowers, your ability, you know, we mentioned this earlier, to go from zero to one or go to take something from nothing to truly production ready. That has really accelerated. And so I think that the second thing I care a lot about is this idea of curiosity and tinkering and playing and just being out there doing and trying all the time. And when you couple those two things, which is you don't lose sight of the fundamentals, right, you don't get intoxicated by the shiny, and you're really like, this is what I need to do to break a problem down from a first principles perspective, while you are trying things all the time, experiencing, curious, learning. Again, it's never been easier to learn. When you put those two things together, that's where you get magic. Because you're grounded while you're moving at a new velocity. And so essentially, you're able to go much, much faster and your ability to be successful increases.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":48,"time":"45:58","seconds":2758,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, I really like the idea and phrasing of outcome engineering, which has begun to make its way into the popular lexicon over the last few months. And it speaks to exactly what you're saying, I think, which is that, you know, I think particularly for software engineers, which is a lot of our audience, agents at coding can feel initially as kind of a threat where it's like, oh, wait, I'm really good at writing code. I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":49,"time":"46:26","seconds":2786,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"don't want this to go away. I enjoy the craft of this. But the job has always been solving problems and it's always been achieving an outcome. And now we're moving to a different abstraction layer of how that work gets done because we're less limited by human bandwidth and execution and we can apply agents to challenges. We're spending more time on architecture and these other tasks, less time hands on keyboard, maybe more time speaking into a mic, prompting an agent to give it enough context. But this is in fact what we've always been meant to be doing. And some of the tool obsession and the how the work gets done obsession that shows up is more about us maybe getting off track. There's been long conversations for years now. about don't be so obsessed with tools, like try to figure out how to solve the problem. It's not always like buying a tool or building a tool or using something. And I think we're just kind of seeing an extension of that now where We have this incredible new tool that can be applied and it's replacing in many ways, a lot of tools from previous eras, just like you would look at, you know, sewing by hand for the sewing machine. Like there's still space for sewing by hand and these handcrafts, but if you're mass producing, you, you probably want to use the mechanized version. Um, and that change can be, feel scary, but it is also very exciting for what it unlocks. Just like how, you know, SpaceX cheap space flights are unlocking all this space technology. AI is unlocking massive amounts of code to be produced, managed. explored for people around the world, whether it's across personal websites or more exciting apps. Just a couple days ago, we had, you know, 82 and 0 go viral for like a vibe coded game where you try to go 82 and 0 in the NBA. And like, there's just so many examples of these little things that are popping up. People are just creating that wouldn't have been probably created otherwise. But it does make technology moats feel less durable because people are now able to throw tokens at a problem and kind of spin up much faster. And so as we come to the last few minutes of our conversation, I'd love to get your take on as our teams are changing, as we're applying these new tools, what does it look like to build a durable moat today?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":50,"time":"48:45","seconds":2925,"speaker":"Jiaona Zhang","text":"I am a big believer that the future is going to be one where you really have brand moats and data moats and the technology moats are falling away to the point that you made. And so what is a brand moat? What is a data moat? And by the way, I think brand and data moats actually go hand in hand. I'll start with the data moat that's most obvious, which is you have data that nobody else has. But I think that a lot of times having a brand moat coupled with a data moat is actually the holy grail, because to really get truly unique data, you need to have trust. You need to have trust from your users, right? Like, why do you get access to that data that nobody else has access to? Because you have their trust. Or you have a very specific, you're doing something for them from a pain perspective, right? You're solving a problem for them. and that creates a brand mode. And that brand mode is one where I think a lot about why would I use you versus someone else in a world where, to your point, there could be someone that just spins up something that has some resemblance to the thing that you do very, very quickly. And the brand mode to me is one where, you know, it's, why you? Why are you going to safeguard my data? Why are you going to be the ones that continue to innovate? Why are you going to be the ones that actually cares about our relationship, right, as a client to vendor? And those things are really, really important. So we, you know, at Laurel, we think about this a lot. We do not ever want to be just known as a vendor. We want the people that work with us to feel a real difference in everything that we do, including the way that, again, why do we even enable the customer success to ship? We want, you know, the customer interacting with anyone at Laurel to feel like, wow, like they will solve my problem. End-to-end no matter who I call right and so that that that concept of like what is it that you are trying to represent and How does that flow through your entire product and how does it actually result in you know why people would trust you? That is I think the enduring mode in the future. I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":51,"time":"50:57","seconds":3057,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Is this the rationale to you behind OpenAI acquiring TBTN a couple months ago? Saying, oh, you know, we know it's going to be easy to copy or have equivalent models. But if we're the cultural force and we create a data mode, we can be the winners here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":52,"time":"51:17","seconds":3077,"speaker":"Jiaona Zhang","text":"Yeah, that's interesting.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":53,"time":"51:20","seconds":3080,"speaker":"Jiaona Zhang","text":"I'm not going to necessarily speculate, but I will say this, which is, and this is really much from my time at Linktree, and also when I look at really successful companies, I think of them as having created a movement. And so we talk a lot about this idea of like their X and Y Z company is the category creator or the category owner. And, and yes, there's like some truth in that, but what does that even mean? And when I really think about, you know, the, the companies I've done a really good job and really gotten into the zeitgeist and, and like captures people's imaginations, they've done a good job of like creating a movement and that movement makes them a category creator. Right. So how do you make it such that, I don't know, Clay is a great example where it's like, hey, you know, I'm gonna really make a movement out of the fact that there is this role that is a go-to-market, you know, engineer. And by the way, to be a go-to-market engineer, you don't have to be an actual, you know, engineer by training in the sense that you were a CS and, you know, actually worked as an engineer. You can be like anyone. You can be the person on the sales team. You can be the operations person. You can be anyone. Like, and that creates a movement and a real emotional pull. And so that is what I think is very enduring and really kind of solidifies the brand and reinforces it. And so when I think about, again, like, why did OpenAI do this? I think there's probably two pieces. I think there's one just in general. I think the foundational labs are really thinking a lot about deployment, right? Which is, hey, I have this amazing technology. You know, what's actually hard? Human change management, right? And so","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":54,"time":"53:00","seconds":3180,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-37-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":55,"time":"53:00","seconds":3180,"speaker":"Jiaona Zhang","text":"[OVERLAP] it's so interesting. And again, going back to like, what is so interesting about understanding how humans spend their time When you are able to have the best lens on how humans spend your time, that is one of the best ways to drive change management. You literally are able to say, you spend your time doing X right now, I think you should spend your time doing Y, and oh, by the way, let me make that really easy for you. Whoever nails that combination, That is where you, that is the winning formula for deployments, right? And like getting the change management to happen, to get adoption to happen. And now like that, that's just the functional piece. Now, if you can make that a movement where people are like, that is what I want to go do. I want to go make that happen at every company across the world. I wanna be, you know, the same way at Webflow, we had all these amazing freelancers and agencies, service providers, you know, they created a movement around web flow and web development and what does it look like to think in a low-code, no-code way. The future of how do I get a lot of people to say AI transformation is super exciting and I love the human aspect to it and the technology aspect to it together. And hey, let me be equipped with the best tools to go do that. That I think is really exciting. And so I know I talked about a lot of different points besides just why open AI bot. the news outlet, but I think that's the thinking that is probably going on behind the hood.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-37-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":56,"time":"54:31","seconds":3271,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] No, this is perfect because you teamed me up for my last question here, which is in many ways, Laurel is reinventing the category of work quantification for the AI era of work tracking,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-37-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":57,"time":"54:43","seconds":3283,"speaker":"Jiaona Zhang","text":"[OVERLAP] Yes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-37-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":58,"time":"54:43","seconds":3283,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"whatever you want to define it as. How is Laurel creating a movement?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":59,"time":"54:47","seconds":3287,"speaker":"Jiaona Zhang","text":"Great question. I want to start here, which is so important to us, and I alluded to this before, we are human optimists, which is we don't think it is, it is not the future to just say, well, all lawyers are going to be gone and it's all going to be lawyers in a box or the AI lawyer and like all accountants, like, in fact, we think the opposite. We think that, you know, what is the one thing we could be doing that would be the greatest way to contribute to you know, humanity and how we all spend our time, which by the way, no matter how much money you have, it really comes down to like, everyone only has so much time, right? And so if we can make it so that everyone is able to do the piece that is most uniquely human.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":60,"time":"55:32","seconds":3332,"speaker":"Jiaona Zhang","text":"lawyers get to actually think about the spirit of the law. And how does this one case different than this other case? And how are you setting precedent? As opposed to the templates, the redlining, the little tweaks, if those things can be taken off your plate, the, hey, did I actually get my thing out? Did I get my bill out, for goodness sakes? If we can just take all of that back office, all of that really kind of like, why are we doing this as a human, as humankind in today's day and age. That is where I think we fundamentally believe we can add value. And so the movement that Laurel cares so much about is we want to return time. We want to return time to everyone. We want to return time to the individual, the lawyer, to go back to their kids after a really long day at work. We want to return time to the organization at large. We want to find the pockets of inefficiencies, not because, you know, therefore agents to take over the workforce. No, it's because we want to know the right pairing, the right pairing of the human and AI such that we can actually return time to the human and get the efficiency globally.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":61,"time":"56:42","seconds":3402,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Jay-Z, thank you for a fascinating conversation. I appreciate you melding all these wide-ranging threads together. What's the best place for our listeners to go to check out Laurel and to follow your work?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":62,"time":"56:54","seconds":3414,"speaker":"Jiaona Zhang","text":"Uh, probably on LinkedIn. Um, and my link tree is still up. So those are the two things.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":63,"time":"57:01","seconds":3421,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"All right, we will have to find Jay-Z's link tree and get that in the show notes. Jay-Z, thank you so much for the conversation. It's been a ton of fun. I hope our listeners enjoyed it. And if they want more conversations like this, as always, they can subscribe to our newsletter at newsletter.chainofthought.show. Thank you to the more than 1,000 of you who have now signed up. So Jay-Z, thanks so much. It's been fantastic.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang","episode":64,"guid":"41178864-f6d5-4307-8899-d9aaafc98bc7","episodeTitle":"Stop Token Maxxing: Find Where AI Actually Pays Off | Jiaona Zhang, Laurel","publishedAt":"2026-06-25","segmentIndex":64,"time":"57:23","seconds":3443,"speaker":"Jiaona Zhang","text":"Thank you. It was really fun, Conor.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/64-stop-token-maxxing-find-where-ai-actually-pays-off-jiaona-zhang/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Dhruv Batra","text":"Digital surfaces like the web are going to be shared roadways for a long time to come. Some drivers of action are going to be humans. The web was primarily designed for human consumption. If a machine can perceive pixels and click buttons and do the things and report to you that yes, I'm able to do it. There, that's your API.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:22","seconds":22,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Most of the web is not getting APIs for AI agents. School district sites, small business pages, the long tail that actually runs the internet, all the useful things that drive the day-to-day of our children's lives and much of our own, they look like they were built in 2002, maybe 2008, and they're going to keep looking that way for years. So how do agents actually navigate and take action across the web? We're going to discuss it today. Welcome back to the Chain of Thought, everyone. I am your host, Conor Bronsdon. My guest today argues that the entire premise of identifying the web is backwards. The web isn't going to be rapidly re-architected for agents, or at least much of it will not be. Agents are going to be built to use the web the way humans already do. Pixels in, clicks out. As humans and agents share the digital roadways, Dhruv Batra, co-founder and chief scientist of Yutori, is here to talk us through his approach. Previously, he led Embodied AI at MEDA's Fundamental AI Research Lab Fair, training robots in simulation and deploying them on Boston Dynamic Spot, plus much more. Dhruv, welcome to Chain of Thought. It's great to see you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":2,"time":"1:34","seconds":94,"speaker":"Dhruv Batra","text":"Thank you for having me Conor, wonderful to be here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:37","seconds":97,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I'm really excited to have this conversation because the more I dig into what you're doing at Yutori, the more interesting I find it. Yutori's agents are in use around the world with Yutori Navigator N1.5 beating out Opus 4.7 and GPT 5.5 with 89.7% average accuracy across 300 everyday web tasks for your NaviBench V2. They're looking great on cost per task and latency. And it's clear that you're different thinking about specialization and the agentic web are driving this. If most of the web is never going to expose APIs to agents, what does the actual infrastructure for agentic action on the web look like?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":4,"time":"2:20","seconds":140,"speaker":"Dhruv Batra","text":"Yeah, a wonderful question and getting to the heart of the matter. Okay, so a few thoughts. I think at a high level, it is beginning to be clear to people that the drivers of action on the web and digital surfaces generally are going to be agents, not humans. And maybe, you know, in certain circles it was clear a few months ago, maybe in certain circles it's not clear. It certainly wasn't clear two years ago when we started Udori. This is pre even the coding agent revolution, so it was certainly not clear that that was going to happen. Today, if you talk to a software engineer, I'm sure they can relate to the feeling of one day telling someone, did we really type every character in every line of code that we used to write by hand? And I hope in a few years, we are asking that same question about operating UIs, whether that's on browsers or other surfaces. Did we really, you know, go to websites, fill out forms, typing our names, clicking on buttons, dragging sliders along? Why don't we have agents do it? When people think about agentifying the web, the calls we are right now quite influenced by tool calling models and coding agents. We think that that's the way to solve this problem that suddenly overnight, websites will just reinvent themselves, offer APIs that they have not offered before. And it'll just be a CLI or an API call that lets agents act that It's an intelligence problem. We've solved the tool calling and now the infrastructure just has to get there. Unfortunately, that is not how the world works. Infrastructure takes extremely long to evolve and change. I live in San Francisco. The Golden Gate Park tennis court reservation system website was written by some indie developer. That website has a perfectly functioning calendar view reservation system. It's not going to reinvent itself overnight. Government offices do not reinvent themselves overnight. There are hundreds of thousands of e-commerce websites The head of that distribution, if the infrastructure is built by the Shopify's of the world, will perhaps expose APIs, but the long tail does not reinvent itself overnight. So I'll give you an example. If you ask a simple question, I have a product and that product is sold on multiple vendor websites, you know hundreds of e-commerce websites. And could you just tell me how much does it cost to ship this product to my house? Not the listed price by the way, just the shipping price. There is no API available for this. E-commerce websites expose that information after you add the item to cart, put in your zip code information, and then you'll see a listing of two or three options. Answering that question, requires a computer use or a browser use model or an agent that does the same process that a human does, which is go to that website, add the item to cart, put in the zip code, and then that information is available to you. There are something like 20,000 to 40,000 school districts in the US. They each have their own associated website identifying the leadership of that school district, identifying curriculum, identifying what they currently need. If you want to ask a simple question of is one of them requesting proposals right now asking for purchasing laptops? Answering that question is extremely hard. We live in a world where we still sign on tablets. Signatures are still a thing, yet people imagine that somehow overnight infrastructure will reinvent itself and, you know, MC-Fi-Fi or API-Fi itself. The analogy that you were referring to that I really like is we should think of the physical infrastructure that exists in front of us like roads. Roadways, if we wanted to solve autonomous driving and make it really simple, we could make it really simple by just making dedicated lanes for autonomous cars, embedding it with sensors that make things easy for autonomous cars and, you know, having perfect autonomy in there. However, we realized that reinventing infrastructure, roadway infrastructure is quite expensive. It's not going to happen overnight. And what we have in practice is shared autonomy. That roadway is shared between human drivers and autonomous cars. And I What I would like people to think about is digital surfaces like the web are going to be shared roadways for a long time to come. Some drivers of action are going to be humans and that's why that's who the roadway was designed for. The web was primarily designed for human consumption and we've spent 30 years of development of browsers and websites and all of that ecosystem, making it extremely efficient to display rich visual information to humans, because that is a high bandwidth input signal into the human brain, and getting information from humans with clicks, typing and GY interaction. And that is the roadway that we're going to have to share with digital robots that are going to be operating it like humans. And in some sense, agentification of the web is going to happen through machines that are acting like humans, perceiving pixels, clicking buttons, and as a consequence of that, offering APIs. Because, you know, what is if a machine can perceive pixels and click buttons and do the things and report to you that, yes, I'm able to do it. There, that's your API.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":5,"time":"8:47","seconds":527,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So this is an interesting frame because I don't disagree with you. I think we are overestimating how rapidly some of this infrastructure below is going to happen. And yet in the roadway example, physical infrastructure typically takes much longer than digital. Um, so I mean, we could deploy a bunch of coding agents to rewrite all the school district websites. We could also deploy specialized agents whose job is to aggregate all of this content and then provide an API to most other agents. So only certain ones need to be really good at navigating these you know, gravel road sites, so to speak, if we think of certain ones as much better paved with an API, with a CLI, whatever. Do you think we're going to see a mix of that behavior where we get this aggregation effect in certain areas and just more specialization around how certain agents are deployed to aggregate the information for agents that aren't as strong at navigating the web? Or do you think we're going to see a coalescence around, hey, agents have to be excellent at web navigation outside of the paved path?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":6,"time":"9:59","seconds":599,"speaker":"Dhruv Batra","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah. So two thoughts again, I think at the top level completely agree with the pushback that, you know, the physical world is slow for a reason. It has to abide by laws of physics and there's only so fast you can, you can't You can copy bits, you can't copy atoms. Construction takes time, which is not the same in the digital world. Agreed with that distinction. And that is actually one of the reasons why we are seeing so much progress in coding agents and software agents and digital agents before we see progress in robotics. And you alluded to this on the top of your podcast, but the reason why I keep appealing to robotics and physical spaces, because that's what I used to do and spend time thinking. And so this is an analogy that I reach for quite frequently. But the second point, I see what you're saying, that yes, some change in agentification will be driven by access to coding agents. Yes, it's absolutely true that if the bottleneck was infrastructural change or adoption of new libraries or frameworks, then coding agents can do it. But some of the change, some of the resistance is just socio-political human","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-5-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":7,"time":"11:17","seconds":677,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] total.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-5-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":8,"time":"11:18","seconds":678,"speaker":"Dhruv Batra","text":"[OVERLAP] organization and coding agents don't solve that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-5-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":9,"time":"11:22","seconds":682,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Is my principal going to hire someone to actually rebuild the website and put an API on it? Probably not a priority.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":10,"time":"11:29","seconds":689,"speaker":"Dhruv Batra","text":"Yeah, rollout takes time across human, distributed human organizations. And, you know, we are seeing that it's like,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":11,"time":"11:39","seconds":699,"speaker":"Dhruv Batra","text":"if tomorrow you could have an agent that can rewrite complete operating systems, is it really the case that every single laptop will ship with that new operating system? It's not gonna happen, even if you could write a operating system from scratch. the rollout takes time. So with that in mind, I think the other thing to keep in mind is there are actually certain analogies to laws of nature, if you will. I also find myself appealing to making analogies to the biological world and evolution. In the biological world, there are biological niches that select for specialization of bodies and brains. It is not the case that that we have organisms on Earth that are highly specialized for certain niches. Flying, the evolution of wings happened multiple times. The streamlined bodies and echolocation of underwater animals has happened multiple times. I think there are analogies to that, to digital niches that select for models. If you are operating in a in a problem domain like math or coding, where really it's a reasoning problem. You can take a lot of time in thinking because you're operating in asynchronous mode. There's a certain kind of model that appears. Think about a domain like audio interaction with another human being. You have a hundred millisecond latency constraint. If you are slower than that, then you're going to end up causing unnatural pauses or gaps in the conversation. And so a certain kind of model needs to be built and vertically on top of that, certain kinds of companies and products get built. You have to specialize into an audio processing full duplex model. You then build voice agents, which are then serving customer support. And I would make the analogy to UI interaction as a digital niche. We have gone ahead and plastered screens over our physical world. The reason why we've done that is because that's a high bandwidth communication channel to the human brain. Those screens are going to be mixed autonomy roadways. And in order to operate those screens, you're going to need specialized brains or models that do that. And the constraints there are, you have to perceive pixels natively. You have to operate extremely cheatly because this thing is going to be running in a for loop. Because you have to perceive act, perceive act, not quite at the same rate as a robot does. You don't need 30 frames per second, 60 frames per second. your trajectory lengths are going to be long. And so this has to be cheap, otherwise the tasks that you want to execute don't make economic sense. And it has to be low latency enough. And that I think is an entirely different ballgame.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":12,"time":"14:42","seconds":882,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"you brought up a couple of really interesting concepts. So one specialization, you know, we alluded to it earlier of, okay, we're going to see aggregation of some of this content. There's going to be business opportunities, people who are like, oh, let me help your agents more easily access parts of the web that are not, you know, paved path for agents. Uh, and the other, I thought that I loved you bringing up is evolution, this idea of digital niches. And I think we're actually seeing that emergent behavior with coding agents today where Coding agents with very little human guidance are evolving to fill certain digital niches. And we're seeing the code that is output from them are solving certain problems that agents are having for themselves. And so there is this kind of self-evolving factor that is occurring. And you can see it really clearly when you look at something like Hermes agent or open clock communities where they are encouraging this behavior. They may churn 80% of a code base over a couple months and they're just going to keep going through it because they have access to so many tokens that they can just keep evolving on that code. And we're seeing this behavior happen with a lot of different code bases. But it almost seems, I think it's interesting to think about that evolving pattern and this kind of new development pattern that's occurring. alongside the highly planned approach to we're building some infrastructure. You know, what does the construction crew look like for it? Who's funding the rebuild and which parts of the web get rebuilt first? And there's obviously incentives for this, right? Like the fortune 500, you know, they will happily charge you per query toll for an agent native API once volume justifies it and they're all moving this direction. How do you see this build out kind of almost fracturing out based off of the kind of self-evolving side of it versus the very planned out? What incentives are you seeing at play?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":13,"time":"16:41","seconds":1001,"speaker":"Dhruv Batra","text":"Yeah. I think the, if we think about the distribution of websites out there and digital surf, like, you know, in some sense, what is a website? It is a front end that lets me interact with a database on the back end. And, you know, what exists out there, the head of the distribution has enough incentives, is organized enough, is mature enough that it will respond to the incentives and provide structured pathways and like digital roadways. If you are holding on to either enterprise or customer data, that customer or that enterprise wants to interact with that data with an AI agent, which is how we are going to be interacting with the digital services. If you are big enough and sophisticated enough, you just build out those agentic use cases on your end or you just provide toll bridges where you are charging for access and things like that. I think that's absolutely where the head of the distribution, the top 10, 50, 100, 150, 500 will end up being. But I think people forget the heavy tail nature of the web. the long and heavy tail does not have individual value, but it has cumulative value. And we've seen enough aggregation businesses build out that have displayed that. I mean, after all, what is an advertising business if not showing you the value of that heavy tail? And that heavy tail It has to sort of become accessible to agents without having the investment to have done that on their end in the first place. And that is where I think Browser agents, which is what we specialize in, are providing real value. Fundamentally,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":14,"time":"18:42","seconds":1122,"speaker":"Dhruv Batra","text":"the way to think about it is, if you as a human can look at a screenshot and look at a browser screen and know which button to click, that is the operation that a browser agent has to do. We can automate that process. We can scale it by hundreds of thousands of parallel agents. We can make it asynchronous. We can make possible entirely new products that we couldn't have built before because it just didn't make sense. you would never going to pay a human developer or teams of human developers to write custom scripts for 500,000 websites to do extremely bespoke tasks and then pay them to manage and update those scripts. You can argue that coding agents can write scripts. Yes, but the websites change their dynamic. They're sometimes hostile. The web is laid out for human consumption. We recently put out, not recently, a few months ago, put out a blog post called The Bitter Lesson of Web Agents. People, I think, till they look under the hood, don't realize how messy websites are, there is no central owner of the web. You know, people propose standards. In fact, people propose 14 different standards and then there's the 15th standard proposed, which means there's no consistency. Sometimes certain buttons are labeled one way, sometimes another way. People think that accessibility trees are consistently enforced. They're not. In some sense, the reason why all of that is happening is because that's not the source of truth. The source of truth is what the human sees. And that's what you can automate and act on.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":15,"time":"20:28","seconds":1228,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"How does all of this inform the decisions you've made at Yutori about how you're building your agents and your scouts?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":16,"time":"20:40","seconds":1240,"speaker":"Dhruv Batra","text":"Yeah, so first of all, the sort of core expertise that Yutori has and the core product that we build are our own in-house models for computer use and browser use. We've recently put out a comparison three weeks ago, we released the agent and the model is called Navigator. It's actually a reference to Netscape Navigator from the 90s, which was the first browser that went mainstream for humans. And we make a reference that Netscape Navigator was for humans, Yutori Navigator is for machines, and we're reinventing that interaction. It's a model that we post-train in-house. The most recent comparisons were to Opus 4.7 and GPT 5.5 on standard browser use benchmarks. We are slightly more accurate. I wouldn't make a big deal about that. The gap in accuracy, what I would make a big deal about is we are somewhere between 2 and 3x faster and 4 and 5x cheaper. And that is because it is not a general purpose model. It is a specialized, small, light footprint model optimized for browser and computer use. What we've described are, you know, everything in the stage of cost training from SFT rejection sampling to on-policy asynchronous RL on synthetic and real websites. So our agents are learning from interactions with real websites and real traffic going out into the world. And we use that to get access to the long tail of the web on consumer-facing product. One of them is called Scouts, where it's a monitoring agent. It's deep research in a cron job. So you can ask things like, hey, let me know whenever my favorite artist comes into town or let me know when this product price drops below a threshold or let me know when, you know, if you're a If you're a sales team and you're monitoring a particular set of customers, let me know when they announce something. And it's a multi-agent architecture. Whenever there are APIs, we will use it. Web search, whatever. But the long tail of the web doesn't have APIs and for that we launched navigators to Patcher 7. So, in essence, to answer your question, We made a bet early on that having an in-house, lightweight, cheap, fast browser use and computer use model was necessary for unlocking operations and workflows on the web. And we're seeing that play out in the sense of we offer that both on a consumer side, but also on an API side and packaging it up at scale to enterprises.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":17,"time":"23:30","seconds":1410,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I love the specificity of what you're building for here because I do think there is a little too much generalization at times as far as how people are deploying agents and models. And you have a very clear viewpoint on what you think is going to happen around the web identification project and what we're seeing on the infrasight there. Walk me through the technical side of building your new Navigator N1.5","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":18,"time":"23:59","seconds":1439,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"model. What have you done to make it different and more successful on these tasks? What can you tell us about how it's constructed?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":19,"time":"24:08","seconds":1448,"speaker":"Dhruv Batra","text":"Yeah. So the bet that we took on the construction side of the architecture was related to our observation. So a lot of the founding team comes from the post-training team for Lama 3.2. So a lot of us come from Meta, some from Ferris, some from Gen AI, some of us also come from Google and DeepMind and other places. The bet that we took in the construction of the model was that this would have to be a natively multimodal model. It has to perceive pixels. Our first version of the model, N1, was perceiving only pixels and producing only human-like actions, button clicks and type and scroll and so on. N1.5, which went live a couple of weeks ago, we added the capability for the model to write custom JavaScript code on the fly. And that is a fairly different and unique thing that is out there. What that does is that when the model perceives opportunities for speeding up and doing things that can be done faster through code, it does so. So if it's filling out a form, and it sees in its view that there are five fields to be filled out or there are multiple selectors of checkboxes to be selected. Instead of manually going and filling each one of them out with a for loop around the model, the model will just write a action, which is, I would like to execute JavaScript, and it will write that JavaScript function, which will have a for loop in it. And those selectors would just get selected. It can also do things like if you're asking for information from the webpage, And that information is spread across multiple tabs or clicks like this is commonly happens in e-commerce websites where you're asking for product variants and sizes. And so you'll see different buttons for like sizes of the product and variants of the product. The model will just write a custom JavaScript function. This also happens in date picker interactions. If you have to pick a date that is 12 months out and the pixel only models are sitting there clicking next 12 times to go to the next year, this one can just write a custom interaction with it. The reason why this is important is it cuts the trajectory length because ultimately what makes agentic tasks hard is long horizon trajectories and so a compound action of code cuts the trajectory length. But the pixels serve as the source of truth. No human is involved in pre-designing how to read document object models or HTMLs or accessibility trees. We're not feature engineering. We're not parsing the DOM through manual expertise. We're just handing over that capability to the model. So the model will start out, look at the pixels. It will write custom code to read and write the DOM and manipulate it. And that's what ends up being quite a valuable thing in these cases.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":20,"time":"27:13","seconds":1633,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I know your team wrote about the original Navigator model, which I think you released November of last year. that it was initialized from QEM3VL and that you were basically focusing on mid-training, supervised fine-tuning, reinforcement learning to get it to where you wanted to be on the online Mind2Web evaluations these other web evals are doing. What was the approach you took on this new Navigator 1.5 that helped you make these leaps you saw?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":21,"time":"27:45","seconds":1665,"speaker":"Dhruv Batra","text":"Yeah, we haven't put out an associated blog describing some of those things, but you can imagine a lot of these ideas carry through across mortal families. You know, the one of the interesting, I think that is interesting that we haven't seen a lot of other people do, things that we do is We do learning by interaction with live websites. So very early on in the journey of our company, we went through the process of hiring human annotators to solve tasks by having them install Chrome extensions and having them click buttons and us recording what they were doing. That does not scale. That approach just doesn't work. And ultimately the lesson here is which that lesson is not particularly unique, that the more you can get out of the way of the model and scale data collection in an agentic way, the better it goes. Where I think we contribute a unique bit of information is to step aside even on the creation of synthetic websites. So You know, we don't, in many of these cases, we don't create synthetic websites to serve as containers, RL environments to do RL in. You can actually go out into the world, and here's a trick that we've described and we've put out. The trick is that there are some websites where after you select filters, we'll modify the URL and put in that filter choice as a query parameter. That observation, you know, the fact that that the URL has been modified and the query parameter now shows up in the URL, you can expose that information to a critic or a verifier, but you can prevent that information or not feed it to your actor or your model or your agent. That difference in privileged information means that you can write out verifiers that are extremely easy to verify, that are looking at privileged information, but your agent does not have access to that privileged information. It is still operating based on pixels. And that's, that's, you know, that does not generalize. In fact, you actually don't need verifiers to generalize, you first notice that you just need your agents to generalize. But there is a nugget of that idea that does generalize that there are sources of privileged information out there that help you write verifiers. And that is more important than cloning websites. You don't need to write synthetic websites. In fact, many websites you cannot create synthetic versions of because while coding agents may be fantastic at reproducing the front end, you do not have enough information to reproduce the backend, which is an obvious observation in hindsight. Like, how do you know how search on a particular website is implemented at the backend? So you're going to implement it differently, which means it's a different environment.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":22,"time":"30:41","seconds":1841,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Super interesting. I'd love to understand more about your approach","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-18-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":23,"time":"30:46","seconds":1846,"speaker":"Dhruv Batra","text":"[OVERLAP] I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-18-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":24,"time":"30:46","seconds":1846,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] in post-training. You know, obviously you are doing a lot around leveraging live websites, super smart given the constraints you just described. I know you haven't shared all of this about N1.5 yet, but what can you tell us about other aspects of your approach to training the model so that it is excellent at the tasks that you are calling it to do?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-18-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":25,"time":"31:11","seconds":1871,"speaker":"Dhruv Batra","text":"think one observation that perhaps at a high level of abstraction seems obvious in hindsight is the value of data ultimately. It's not a unique thing to say, but I think it's worth repeating that if you want to build good models and good agents, you have to invest in that. And we go out into the world, our agents go out into the world across an extremely wide variety of websites. And that I think is an extremely valuable source of data that gives us a unique leverage. When people talk to our agents and say, I would like to monitor this piece of information, really it's a multi-agent system where there is a top-level orchestrator that is launching navigators. But then the consequence of that system is that many navigators are launched, prompts are long and detailed, they are machine-written. all of those are agentic trajectories that we have access to. The breadth of the product, the fact that the product does not place any constraints on where you can send the model and the agents means that we end up hitting an extremely large number of websites. We have an API product where we actually don't control what website you send our models to. And so, that's again, the value of that diversity. And so, which is a long winded way of saying it's the data.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":26,"time":"32:51","seconds":1971,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, I think it's really interesting to see how many companies are now training models or are post-training Chinese open source models. And obviously you haven't shared at this point what Navigator 1.5 is based off of, but you know, I can make some assumptions based off of Quen 3 being the base for Navigator N1. What's your perspective on this bifurcation we're seeing between, you know, Western or American open source and then the almost like open source frontier of the openweight Chinese models?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":27,"time":"33:29","seconds":2009,"speaker":"Dhruv Batra","text":"Yeah. This is a topic that is actually close to my heart because, you know, I was at, I was at FAIR for many years. Um, the mission was basic found and is to a certain extent, but, you know, I think we can all agree it's not the same place anymore. Um, the mission was basic fundamental research, um, advancing open source shared freely to the world. Um, and you know, for a period of time, we created that world. For a period of time,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":28,"time":"34:05","seconds":2045,"speaker":"Dhruv Batra","text":"[OVERLAP] there were major industry locking innovations that were shared freely, like the common examples shared from my colleagues, PyTorch was invented for internal","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-21-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":29,"time":"34:17","seconds":2057,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Totally.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-21-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":30,"time":"34:18","seconds":2058,"speaker":"Dhruv Batra","text":"[OVERLAP] consumption. and now the industry runs on it. My computer vision colleagues invented segment anything and the world's best object detectors and that's used at a bunch of places in our own small way, not to the same level of impact. You know, the fact that we built the world's fastest 3D simulator, Hapadet, and that was used for training virtual robots both internally, but also in academia, also in other industry labs. And so it was a unique It was a unique time in a unique world.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-21-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":31,"time":"34:52","seconds":2092,"speaker":"Dhruv Batra","text":"Today that mantle has been picked up by Chinese startups and companies. I think the fact that there are strong open source models available makes a certain kind of startup possible. If there weren't any, I think there's a clear fact that there are certain things that allows startups to quickly build out things on post-training side that if you had to invest in pre-training, the level of investment required works as a gatekeeping and a thresholding mechanism.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":32,"time":"35:30","seconds":2130,"speaker":"Dhruv Batra","text":"So I would, like, I, there are, I'm not generally someone who thrives on fear mongering. I am generally positive towards and optimistic towards technology. I think we should be extremely skeptical when concerns about the future are interleaved with sharing of knowledge. Security through obscurity has never been a good strategy. I think that is not an argument we should appeal to.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":33,"time":"36:13","seconds":2173,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I mean, there are some major frontier labs that are attempting some regulatory capture, for sure. It just is what it is. And it's an understandable economic strategy for them, even if I don't personally like it. And it is really interesting to see how we have a wave of Silicon Valley startups that are being fueled by openweight Chinese models because that's where the frontier on the openweight side is. And not to say that Gemma 4 isn't a very good model because it is, but you can look at Kimmy K 2.5, Kuen, DeepSeek, there's so many examples. And this shift has been fascinating to see, and I'm sure you have plenty more thoughts on it. The other one that I think is interesting is the rise of some of these Asian frameworks that we're seeing that are more generalized. So OpenClaw, Hermes, others. What are you seeing at the frameworks layer on top of both, you know, paid frontier models and then obviously open models as well?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":34,"time":"37:22","seconds":2242,"speaker":"Dhruv Batra","text":"Yeah, I think, you know, the biggest innovation in the last year or so in some sense has been OpenClaw and, you know, just packed with four or five really fantastically good ideas, which is not to say there aren't other nice innovations, but just, you know, bangers, like a couple of like really good ideas in there. The fact that you can, you have internal, the agent has internal visibility into its own inner workings means that you just talk to it for making changes to it. Certainly exposes itself to a broader set of the audience. The memory system, the fact that, you know, it maintains a rich set of file-based memory systems. And the notion of a heartbeat, you know, that, that it can schedule itself. When we launched Scouts, which was last year, somewhere around June, the notion of a cron job was central to Scouts as well. you run deep research in a cron job and you have to deduplicate against that. And we thought that was the clear differentiator and value proposition, which it was for a while. And then obviously got copied at a bunch of places. The idea of routines and running cron jobs is where things have moved on to. And in some sense that has exploded the inference capacity needs as well. It's very interesting to see that play out. Which is all to say, to come back to your question, I think we're seeing really fantastic innovation at the framework harness application intersection layer. The challenge, as you alluded to earlier as well, is One risk with exposing inner workings and adjusting the framework through natural language for non-sophisticated users is that you end up breaking the system and not realizing how to fix it. Um, like if you talk to OpenCloud long enough, um, you can ask it to do things. And if you're not sophisticated enough, you will end up breaking the system. Um, which, you know, you can find yourself needing another coding agent to go and fix this, uh, agent and figure out whether, where the configs are wrong. Some people can do that. I think some other people will struggle against doing that, which isn't to say this isn't. unsolvable problem, perhaps there is a good solution for this as well. Reinstall, start from scratch, import memories, you can come up with solutions around that. But there is a risk in this layer.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":35,"time":"40:13","seconds":2413,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. How do you see the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":36,"time":"40:18","seconds":2418,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"less technical layer of folks who are coming on board with OpenCLoud as their solutions? Maybe they're going to start using Yutori for their web search needs here in the future. What do you see us needing to do to enable this kind of shift from the frontline of, oh, it's often engineers and relatively technical folks who are using agents often for coding to now We're seeing them spread throughout society. We're seeing infrastructure start to get rebuilt in some areas, as you said earlier. What does that shift look like, particularly for folks who maybe are going to be less aware of how these agents may impact their systems long term?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":37,"time":"40:57","seconds":2457,"speaker":"Dhruv Batra","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah. You know, making predictions about the future is, is, is hard. But one thing that comes to mind is, in some sense, the crypto analogy, that there are anytime a new technology is built, initially, there are the earlier doctors are the And I realize there's a bunch of grift in crypto and like, let's leave that aside. But, you know, the early adopters tend to be technologically savvy, forward-looking people who want to make things work, are sophisticated. And then as it's propagating across, what we're seeing now in the crypto space is adoption by extremely large incumbents, right? Like our, you know, centralized players that are offering things that have, like, if you, what you value to an unsophisticated, what you present as a value prop to an unsophisticated user is not the how, like, why do I care what a blockchain is? Like, or why does, you know, my, 80 year old father is not going to care about what the blockchain is or, you know, but if you, if the value proposition to him is, well, you can send money to someone and the cost of transfer is lower. Okay. That's something he understands. He can compare it to other service providers for that. And I think it's going to play out similarly in the agent space. Initially, it's all, you know, extremely tech savvy, extremely sophisticated users. The unsophisticated users, it's actually a surprise that they've sort of driven into the space. But ultimately, they're not going to care. Like, if it's an agent, what they care about is, I can talk to it. It responds to messages on my behalf. It can book things on my behalf. It can do things on my behalf. Fantastic. Like, do you really care whether it's a browser use model or an API or a CLI or an MCP? No, none of this stuff matters to an end user.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-27-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":38,"time":"42:57","seconds":2577,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] How am I problem solved?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-27-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":39,"time":"42:59","seconds":2579,"speaker":"Dhruv Batra","text":"Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":40,"time":"43:00","seconds":2580,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Interesting. Yeah. I, I do think we spend a lot of time, uh, arguing about MCP is dead. Reg is dead. CLIs are the future. No APIs like this are the way to go. We're not going to build enough APIs. And in the end, the people who will end up using these agents are not going to care for the most part. Just simply won't. Yeah, I think you pulled on a thread here that is really important, which is this idea of everything's becoming identified. We're seeing, I mean, we're seeing backlash against AI. And yet the same people who are part of that backlash are often starting to use AI-enabled systems without even necessarily realizing that they are using agentified systems. And increasingly, we're just going to see this become more and more commonplace, whether it's Google Shopping agents, whether it's, you know, Yutori's new delegate agents that I saw you put out or anything else. But, you know, we've talked a lot about agents. We also briefly touched on something that I know is very near and dear to your heart, which is hardware and enabling hardware and AI together. You spent years leading embodied AI at FAIR, at MEDA, you know, training robots for simulations and getting them deployed in the real world. How do you see agents in today's AI interacting with the physical world over the next couple years?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":41,"time":"44:25","seconds":2665,"speaker":"Dhruv Batra","text":"Yeah, this is a topic that is dear to my heart that as you mentioned, I, I led fair embodied AI. That was a interesting group in the sense that it was an, it was atypical to have a group doing both AI for robotics and AI for smart glasses. The reason for our existence and the vision was that you have to solve the same egocentric understanding and perception action loops in robotics as you need to do for smart glasses. Whether a camera is attached to the face of a robot or sitting on the glasses that a human is wearing, You have solved similar problems. There are, of course, unique differences. One of them has actuation through physical hardware and the other one, you're just assisting a human. So yes, there are differences, but there are enough similarities that that was what started this problem in a cohesive way. When I left Meta, I had posted on Twitter that I'm leaving, I'm going to do something else. One of the things that I said was, I continue to be excited about a world, a future in which I had phrased it pretty boldly. I had said every single interaction with the digital and physical world is mediated by an AI assistant.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":42,"time":"45:53","seconds":2753,"speaker":"Dhruv Batra","text":"You can imagine how a statement like that goes on Twitter. Today, hopefully, at least people see the every single interaction with the digital world mediated by an AI assistant in non-controversial ways. But if you talk to your phone, you should talk to a browser, you should talk to like every app wants to stick a talk to the talk to our AI agent button on it. And we do. It's perhaps not controversial that you will talk to computers in the future and they will click buttons, right, call whatever, automate things. Hopefully that part is not controversial. I do imagine a future in which the interaction with the physical world is augmented and superpowered through AI. Intelligence is a lever. It is one of the greatest levers we have come up with. I think glasses are an extremely interesting form factor. At FAIR, one of my teams had built the first version of the image question answering model that had shipped on the Ray-Ban Meta sunglasses. And so you could even invoke it by saying, you know, of course, in collaboration with the product teams, we were a research team, but you could invoke it by saying, hey, Meta, can you take a picture and describe this monument and give me more detail? That is a simple image question answering task. Incidentally, in 2025, my colleagues and I received the Mark Everingham Prize for introducing a problem called visual question answering in 2015. In 2015, we wrote a paper that was titled Visual Question Answering. We introduced the problem of answering questions about images, and we introduced a dataset, we introduced, you know, an evaluation metric, we introduced a method, and that, It really blossomed into an entire subfield of what was known as vision and language research or multimodal research. And so seeing that journey through to shipping of actual products where you just talk to an assistant that's running on your glasses was quite rewarding to see. I think the idea that you should have, of course, with all privacy considerations built in, but the idea that you should have superpowers that come from the right devices that can observe the world from your perspective and tell you or even proactively take on tasks on your behalf. If I see the world from your perspective and I notice that there's, you know, the common example was if I notice that there's an item that is out in your fridge, if I just see you toss an empty milk container in your trash and you know, I can proactively reorder that item or I can come up with other things. If you meet a new person and I can note, you know, today every single meeting recording software is introducing the meeting notes or briefs feature where at the start of the meeting they will tell you who you're meeting, what this meeting is about. Why doesn't that feature exist for live interactions where in front of every interaction, like I know who this person is, if I'm meeting, that's perhaps a bit dystopian, but you know, you can see versions of that idea make sense. I really do think that the future is with superpowers. The idea of all of us being equipped with superpowers is an exciting future.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":43,"time":"49:44","seconds":2984,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It's interesting you phrase that way because I think we've seen this conversation about AI being magic or superpowers on your computer already where it's like, oh, you know, I can do things with coding agents. I just simply couldn't before. I can deploy my army of robots. And that is starting to come to the physical world. But as we've talked about this whole time to enable this kind of mass transformation, and I think you and I both believe we are at the precipice and, you know, maybe a bit over of this insane re-architecting of our world, even though parts are going to take longer than we expect. Part of that comes down to having enough compute. So we're seeing this massive data center build out. We're seeing investments in edge models. Obviously our conversation with Maxine Labone over at Liquid AI is a great one that we did last fall focused on edge models. We're going to do a lot more in the future here. How do you see the next couple of years of the physical AI build out as far as the data center layer, the other infra layer that has to accompany all the work happening on the web layer, etc.? ?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":44,"time":"50:57","seconds":3057,"speaker":"Dhruv Batra","text":"I think today we live like who could have seen it coming that just as a indicator of where the market demand is, who could have seen it coming that an H100 chip that is three or four years into its life cycle is worth more. As a startup founder, I'm realizing that I'm paying more for it today than I did a year ago when I signed some contracts. So we live in a world with almost an insatiable amount of demand for inference compute. What are the obvious consequences of that demand? There's suddenly an awareness that people are burning through their like enterprises are waking up and realizing that they're burning through their annual spend commitments in a month that does not seem sustainable to me. And so the one obvious consequence is certainly people, not suddenly, but people are going to realize that there is a need for cost efficient models, smaller, lighter footprint models that you're not going to throw the biggest, beefiest thing for every small little task that you're going to do. The fact that we want to run these models on device means that they have to be smaller. The fact that privacy constraints and considerations mean that you want to keep your data on the device and do not want to send it for some things to a remote provider means that the models have to get smaller and run on device.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":45,"time":"52:22","seconds":3142,"speaker":"Dhruv Batra","text":"I think the world is heterogeneous and interesting in the future. We've seen a lot of progress with massive models, with remote, with just API based access and served in massive data centers. The world is, my bet on the future is digital, maybe I'm repeating myself, is digital niches. The world is heterogeneous, it's filled with the same variety of flora and fauna that we see in the natural world that we're going to see in the digital and the physical world.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":46,"time":"53:01","seconds":3181,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I think that's a fantastic through line for this conversation. Drew, it's been such a pleasure chatting with you. Always great to get your insights. Any closing words for our audience as we wrap up?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":47,"time":"53:12","seconds":3192,"speaker":"Dhruv Batra","text":"It's been fantastic chatting as well. I think these conversations really end up invigorating me. I think","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":48,"time":"53:24","seconds":3204,"speaker":"Dhruv Batra","text":"in terms of where people can learn more about us, it's yutori.com. I think the last note that I would share with people is we chose the name Yutori because it's a Japanese word for a sense of well-being one experiences by living with mental spaciousness. The point of AI is not to drive anxiety and to make us feel like we're on a treadmill constantly running faster. The point of AI is to give us the breathing room to focus on the things that are really important to us and to take off the mundane and the dull and the dreary and the routine and the mindless. So that's what I leave your audience with.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":49,"time":"54:07","seconds":3247,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I love it. An inspirational, optimistic vision of the future, which is definitely something we try to drive towards on this show. Listeners, thank you so much for joining me today. Thanks for listening to Drew and I as we've had this conversation. Make sure that you have subscribed, liked, rated, reviewed, whatever you need to do on your podcasting app of choice on YouTube, wherever you're listening. We appreciate you so much. And Drew, thank you again for coming on the show. It's been fantastic.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra","episode":63,"guid":"4ee357e6-d039-45a3-9631-2a8fd8670d34","episodeTitle":"Most of the Web Will Never Get APIs for AI Agents | Dhruv Batra, Yutori","publishedAt":"2026-06-18","segmentIndex":50,"time":"54:31","seconds":3271,"speaker":"Dhruv Batra","text":"Thank you brother. Thanks for having me.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/63-most-of-the-web-will-never-get-apis-for-ai-agents-dhruv-batra/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:20","seconds":20,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Many people are skeptical of AI. Accuracy concerns, energy concerns, security concerns, privacy, all are complaints. But AI is evolving, and so are its production use cases. Our guest today works with nation states and enterprises around the world to explore the regulatory and business challenges of our massive AI infrastructure build-out and the increasing use of AI around the world. Let's talk about it. Welcome back to Chain of Thought, everyone. I am your host, Conor Bronsdon. My guest today is Chris Lovejoy. Chris is the Global Head of Strategy at Kindrel, and Kindrel is the world's largest IT infrastructure services provider, working with thousands of mission-critical enterprises across more than 60 countries. This is an interesting perspective, and one we don't actually have on the show a lot. But before Kindrel, Kris did a variety of other things that have helped fuel the global economy, including running security businesses at EY and IBM. She's, in fact, spent her career inside the systems the global economy runs on. Banks, hospitals, energy grids, governments. She's on the board of Dominion Energy. Kris is also one of the few people who is truly looking at the depth of what is required to deploy genetic AI from the point of view of the CISO and the resilience team. This perspective is rare on this show, and it's a reason why this conversation matters now. Chris, welcome to Chain of Thought. It's great to see you. Where are you joining us from?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":1,"time":"1:45","seconds":105,"speaker":"Kris Lovejoy","text":"Thank you, Conor. I am actually in the weirdest place in the world. I'm on the Appalachian Trail in Pennsylvania.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":2,"time":"1:53","seconds":113,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Oh, wow. Are you on a","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:55","seconds":115,"speaker":"Kris Lovejoy","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-2-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":4,"time":"1:55","seconds":115,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] long-term Appalachian Trail hike right now? Am I just getting a little cameo?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-2-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":5,"time":"1:59","seconds":119,"speaker":"Kris Lovejoy","text":"No, it's just, this is where my house is. I,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":6,"time":"2:02","seconds":122,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Amazing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":7,"time":"2:03","seconds":123,"speaker":"Kris Lovejoy","text":"yeah, I like to hike, but I'm not there today. I'm sitting in my, besides my house, looking at the mountain where the trail is.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":8,"time":"2:09","seconds":129,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So when you're not helping enterprises deploy agents around the world, you're hiking. I love that you find some time to touch grass, as we say. But when you're not out and about, I know you are thinking deeply about many of the topics that impact enterprises as they try to bring AI into production today. And one of the big things that I know Kindle has seen is that 2025 readiness report that showed that 68% of organizations are investing heavily in AI, and yet, while AI spend is up 33% year over year, and I think, honestly, in 2026 it's up more than that, if we're being realistic, 62% of those initiatives were still stuck in pilots. We've talked about this on the show sometimes, about evaluation gaps, observability, these other things, but from your perspective, as someone who works with so many enterprises around the world, what's the challenge or challenges that are keeping AI from being as impactful as it could be?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":9,"time":"3:07","seconds":187,"speaker":"Kris Lovejoy","text":"Well, I'm going to use a bit of an analogy. It's, you know, I think about it, you know, when we first invented electricity, you know, you could go to the World's Fair and you could see somebody holding up a light bulb and it would go on. Everybody would say, ooh, Howard, you know, you go and you light up a house. But the reality was that the, you know, the transmission distribution lines weren't yet established. The energy generation wasn't established so that you could actually run electricity at scale. And I think we're running into kind of the same problem with AI right now, which is we're really good at building the models and building the pilots around the models. But we are having a scale problem. Some of it has to do with the data sources with which we're trying to integrate so that we can actually, you know, provide, get to the outcomes we're looking for. Some of the issue is associated with just CPUs. You know, we've got a lot of, you know, older, you know, equipment within our environment. Yeah, I could go on and on, but I think that we're coming out of this age of experimentation, going into a transitional phase, and eventually we're going to get to kind of the era of industrial AI. But I think it's going to take us a little bit to get there.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":10,"time":"4:23","seconds":263,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So it's interesting you say it's going to take us a little bit together. I want to dive into that a bit because I think there are other countersigns that show that that AI 2027 prediction is on track. I mean, we look at the insane growth that Anthropic has seen earlier this year and the build out of like Codex of Claude Code. How do you square that kind of acceleration effect that we're seeing in certain areas with AI versus the gap with maybe more traditional enterprises?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":11,"time":"4:52","seconds":292,"speaker":"Kris Lovejoy","text":"I think, well, first, I think we have to begin to be careful about thinking about AI as being this monolithic thing. And so I tend to categorize AI into, you know, there's AI for productivity, individual productivity uses. So this is us going to Gemini and using Gemini and creating agents in Gemini to do things like book a hotel. It's very easy for people to use AI, generative as well as agentic AI, to help them improve their productivity. And in that particular case, particularly when you're talking about agentic AI, Agentic AI is running within your user context, so they're inheriting the authorizations that you as a user has. Within an enterprise, productivity tools are being used and they are being used at scale. What I don't see and I'm, you know, when I look at the other kind of the more mission critical systems and the use of AI for business process transformation, I am not yet seeing the large scale kind of autonomous systems use propelled by AI. So when I think about AI, I do agree with you that there's been a lot of adoption on the productivity side. When I, when I'm thinking about where our customers that you really are running the banks are running the healthcare systems, those transformations are not yet at full production scale. Hope that helps in the, it's kind of the segmentation.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":12,"time":"6:35","seconds":395,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. What do you see as the gap that's stopping them? Is it about unlocking the data and context that these businesses already have and actually ensuring AI is tailored to them? Is it more about in-production accuracy and governance or is it a combination of both and other things as well?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":13,"time":"6:53","seconds":413,"speaker":"Kris Lovejoy","text":"all of the above. And I think a lot of it is situation dependent.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":14,"time":"6:59","seconds":419,"speaker":"Kris Lovejoy","text":"We're not in a world where people run on monolithic systems, particularly when you're talking about critical infrastructure. Most critical infrastructure industries are not cloud first. They may have some mainframe mid-range. They have your X-series. They've got cloud infrastructure. They probably have multiple clouds. They've got a truly hybrid environment. Some of it is very old. We say it's vintage. Some of it is very new. A lot of complexity. Data is all over the place. So kind of managing across these complex environments and, you know, getting access and integration into the underlying data, to the data layers, and getting that data normalized and ensuring the integrity of the data so it can be digested by the models, that's not easy. And I think that some of it is the practical reality of just touching the data. I think the other thing is just risk. Things work well in an experiment, but when you start talking about security and reliability and sovereignty and economics and scalability, these are all things that don't come necessarily with the pilot. It takes a lot of work to get to those things. And, you know, I think we also have to be realistic that a lot of what we're trying to accomplish, we're kind of making it up as we go along. And what we're finding as we're getting into, you know, sort of these production instances, that the guardrails that we need, the capabilities that we need to enable resilience, they don't necessarily exist yet. And so we are really, I think, that's why when I say it's going to take a little bit for us to get there, you know, maybe a few years, maybe up to a decade, but there is going to have to be some iterative invention that goes along with us actually building out these production use cases. Because I'm seeing every day we run into the wall where we're like, oh, Oops, I kind of figured that out. And yeah, anyway, I think it's going to take some time before most organizations can use agentic AI in particular at scale.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":15,"time":"9:15","seconds":555,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] It's interesting you bring this up because we've had a lot of conversations on this show about data architecture. You know, I had Souter Hasby from Neo4j on a few weeks back and he basically talked about how he views hallucinations as really a data architecture problem. We're like, yeah, the model's going to try to predict what you want to see and sometimes it'll hallucinate to do that. But if you provide the right data at a point in time and you have your enterprise data unlocked, like you can solve this. And then on the other end, we just spoke with Jerry Liu from Lama Index, and Jerry was saying, look, I think the context layer, a similar and related argument, is something that needs to be unlocked. There's a reason they're focusing so much on OCR for documents, because while they're seeing frontier models be able to dive into PDFs and get like 80% accuracy. I mean, if we have a bunch of PDF documents, which many enterprises do, we need to be able to unlock those at close to 100% accuracy to really make our models more effective. As you put it, unlock agentic scale. And part of what this comes down to is we are beginning to treat, I mean, we've been treating code as infrastructure for a long time, but it is vastly increased by the amount of code we can now generate with these models. And these models use code as their native language because it's the best interface between a computer and us and we're able to just get them to generate so much code. Uh, and I think we're truly hitting this era now of policy as code and code just being in everything we do, everything trying to be translated to code. That's the right, you know, primitive for us for the moment. I know Kindle","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-12-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":16,"time":"10:52","seconds":652,"speaker":"Kris Lovejoy","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-12-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":17,"time":"10:52","seconds":652,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] is really pushing on this idea and saying, look, like policy as code has to be the future. Talk to me about your perspective here and where you see opportunities or gaps.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-12-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":18,"time":"11:03","seconds":663,"speaker":"Kris Lovejoy","text":"Yeah, and I've, you know, I've been in this industry for a long time, and I remember the conversations, you know, back when cloud first came out. I don't know if you're probably too young for this, but we used to talk about policy as code back then. And we would say, ah, cloud is just software. But the benefit of cloud is that if you implement policy as code, you're never going to have another security problem. That was the narrative. You build it right, you don't have to worry about it. Well, I think it took us not very long to figure out that that narrative was not necessarily correct. And so therefore, we had to have compliance, you know, cloud compliance and secondary controls and all that kind of good stuff implemented to enable us to get to a good overall security environment. Policy as code is an important element for us today, right? Because though I have to say that policy as code for me, I have a fraught relationship with policy as code in so much as what I see people trying to do is apply deterministic rules to inherently autonomous systems. And I wonder, at what point are we simply just creating? Is it RPA? Or is it really, you know, agentic AI? But that's like a philosophical discussion we can get into. What I would say is that, you know, when you're talking about mission-critical systems, you know, let's start with the word you used, which is infrastructure. We have to start with the premise that in order for us, and this is the kind of the fundamental security rule, it's just if you can't see it, you can't protect it. And so when you're talking about mission-critical systems that are going to be using agentic AI, and when I think about the role of agentic AI as a privileged user interacting with those systems, then we have to apply certain rules to how we manage that. And it starts with, first of all, we have to inventory the agent. We have to evaluate the agent within simulated environments to ensure that that agent is not going to be performing activities that we don't want it to perform. We have to generate the policies and establish the policies and monitor the policies. We have to create, you know, fulsome audit reports and compliance reports so that we can understand what happened. And we have to have humans in supervisory roles. I'm not sure, again, I'm not a big fan of the concept of human in the loop in so much as, again, we're trying to put a human construct into something that is supposed to be autonomous. And so I keep pushing back and asking, is it really human in the loop or is it human on top, right? Is it a different model that we have to think about? Because I keep seeing, you know, humans are, we're trying to take the construct we understand and make, it's interesting because even when we think about business process, we think in a linear way. AI doesn't think in a linear way. AI works in parallel, there are parallel tasks that occur, and it is a very different, and I see teams struggling with how do you, like this concept of human in the middle, how do you actually develop the policy constraints such that humans don't become kind of that roadblock to process fulfillment. Anyway, I'm kind of going off on a tangent, but coming back to sort of what you asked, I think that policy as code is important, but as I said, policy as code is one element of the overall reference architecture that needs to be implemented. I am a big fan of agentic AI requiring secondary evaluations and approvals before it can actually complete it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":19,"time":"15:17","seconds":917,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I really appreciate your perspective on infrastructure, Chris, because there are a lot of considerations that come into play when it comes to actually getting AI into production at scale. Like, yes, Claude Code is great for my individual productivity. Maybe I'm using Hermes agent, maybe I'm using Codex. There's a lot of opportunities there for developers in particular, which are often early adopters of this kind of technology.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-13-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":20,"time":"15:40","seconds":940,"speaker":"Kris Lovejoy","text":"[OVERLAP] What?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-13-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":21,"time":"15:41","seconds":941,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"But as you start to scale to trying to have massive systems, there are just so many considerations, regulatory concerns, et cetera. And there's also in the background this concern for many enterprises of, oh, I'm hearing in media that this is a potentially huge climate impact. Maybe AI is using a ton of water. Maybe AI is using a ton of energy. I did an episode on this last year with Annie Masley where we debunked some of the myths around this, but you have real on the ground experience here with your work at Dominion Energy as a board member. I'd love your perspective on this. What are you seeing around AI infrastructure and energy usage?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":22,"time":"16:25","seconds":985,"speaker":"Kris Lovejoy","text":"Sure. So let me end first. I'm not going to speak as, you know, as Dominion. I'm just, just me speaking. But I, whether it be AI or it be quantum or, you know, figure out whatever the next generation of new technology is, the one thing is true is we've got a lot of data center requests that are coming out. And so if you look at, you know, we represent kind of, you know, you look at the data center load that's going up in the kind of the northeast, southeast of the United States.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":23,"time":"17:04","seconds":1024,"speaker":"Kris Lovejoy","text":"There is an organization out there that is called PJM and it is responsible for forecasting the load. And every year, it comes up and says, gee, last year we underestimated by name your percentage, and it's always a double-digit percentage. So what's happening is we've got a lot of data center requests, and a lot of the data centers that are being put up, it's not just the hyperscalers, it's a lot of different data center providers. Those data center providers are building, you know, high-capacity compute installations. Now, oftentimes, they're using, you know, good refrigeration technologies, you know, to support AC, and there's, you know, they're liquid-cooled, but there's, you know, recycling, et cetera. So they're efficient. They're energy-efficient. It's just that there are a lot more devices, right? It's just, it's a question of scale. It's not necessarily that, you know, AI is more consumptive than another technology, because you can, if you spend the money, you can make it environmentally friendly. But we can't stop the number of you know, of devices that are going to be connected or need to be connected in order for us to be successful. You know, as a nation or, you know, any business, you have to have electricity to make your compute go. So that is true.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":24,"time":"18:29","seconds":1109,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, as a society, I think it's really interesting to look at this because I think there are folks who are just concerned about overall energy usage, but the reality is that we are not going to stop using energy. In fact, we're going to keep electrifying the grid even more, especially for folks who are concerned about the climate. I put myself among them. I used to run a show called Growing the Grid Economy. I've consulted on a variety of energy infrastructure papers and been an expert policy reviewer there. And I do think it matters. But we need actually more energy, not less. We need to be more efficient, yes. But I mean, we're building all these electric cars. And, you know, I can quibble about the energy load of creating electric cars and what type of energy sources we use to run them. But the bottom line is we have to get off oil and gasoline, let alone if you look at things straight from use, which we're not going to get into. But there are major risks. Gasoline is getting more expensive. The global economy is being disrupted. We need to be able to have effective EVs. And when we look at those vehicles, and those are the same vehicles that are powering potentially massive drops in actual traffic accidents through things like Waymo, which I'm super excited about, we can do a whole episode on that at some point.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-16-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":25,"time":"19:38","seconds":1178,"speaker":"Kris Lovejoy","text":"[OVERLAP] We.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-16-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":26,"time":"19:38","seconds":1178,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Um, but the, the energy drops we're able to get from those and the, uh, do require a lot more electrification of the grid because we are transitioning from burning a ton of gasoline for these vehicles. It's actually much more energy efficient for me to sit at home using AI to code all day than it is to, uh, you know, go drive my car, my gasoline powered car to the grocery store and back for a few minutes. And so I think it, that gets lost in these conversations is, is the efficiency angle to your point. Totally, we are having a massive build-out of data centers. It's going to keep accelerating. We don't have enough of them. Look at the whole Anthropic and SpaceX computing deal, where rivals are having these deals to open up compute as they grow massively. People want to keep using AI. It's not going away, let alone quantum, as you put it. There's a whole other layer of infrastructure here that's going to be built out. So let's try to do it the best we can.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-16-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":27,"time":"20:34","seconds":1234,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Personally, I would shout out, Everybody in the pool is a podcast talking about like nuclear energy and other opportunities. There's so much to do here. But bottom line is like we should be efficient about it, but we're going to keep building data centers.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":28,"time":"20:48","seconds":1248,"speaker":"Kris Lovejoy","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-17-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":29,"time":"20:48","seconds":1248,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] It just is what it is.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-17-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":30,"time":"20:49","seconds":1249,"speaker":"Kris Lovejoy","text":"[OVERLAP] it is. And I think that there's a lot of new technology. There's battery storage in particular I'm very optimistic about. I do think, you know, small nuclear is definitely, you know, a good possibility. I think extending leases or, you know, perhaps, you know, opening up some new nuclear facilities, that'll be great. But it's going to take 20, 30, 40 years for us to get the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-17-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":31,"time":"21:10","seconds":1270,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] out.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-17-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":32,"time":"21:10","seconds":1270,"speaker":"Kris Lovejoy","text":"[OVERLAP] permitting done. I mean, I think at this point, what we've got to focus on, and some people aren't thinking about that, is that when you're making the decision about whether you're going to colo, you're going to own, or you're going to just use cloud, you do always want to ensure that the vendors with whom you're working are being as efficient as possible. Because I do see that there are some situations where the data center providers are not thinking from an environmental perspective, particularly when it comes to water use. And I do think that that is going to become an issue. And it's not that the technologies are not available. It's that the technologies may be expensive, and it's hitting the margin from a competitive perspective. And so I think that we, as we are designing, because some of my teams, they design data centers. So they're always recommending kind of the most efficient kinds of environmentally friendly and efficient kinds of technologies to use, particularly on the cooling side. But it is up to the buyer to ensure that the vendor is providing those services, and sometimes that is lost. And yeah, but I couldn't agree with you more. We need an all-of-the-above kind of approach to energy. And it's not just about energy and water. It's about the grid, you know, transformation. Because our grid is pretty old.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-17-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":33,"time":"22:33","seconds":1353,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yes it is.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-17-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":34,"time":"22:34","seconds":1354,"speaker":"Kris Lovejoy","text":"[OVERLAP] And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-17-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":35,"time":"22:34","seconds":1354,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-17-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":36,"time":"22:34","seconds":1354,"speaker":"Kris Lovejoy","text":"so, and I have these really interesting discussions all the time about, you know, just from a geopolitical perspective, if you look at kind of the U.S. is really focused on energy infrastructure and AI, which is kind of interesting, the duality there. But you look at some of the other nation states, they've spent a lot more on grid modernization. They have a lot more energy available, particularly in the form of renewables. interesting dynamic where it's kind of the next economic battle is going to be fought. And I think it's there.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":37,"time":"23:07","seconds":1387,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, I mean, there's the obvious comparison of China that happens all the time and their insane drive on renewables. But you can look at many other nation states around this. And it is interesting because to your point about efficiency of the technology being put into data centers and data center design. There are opportunities to even use AI. I'm seeing people do this to make the data centers more efficient once they're live. But from the very start, I think you have to be driving for the most efficient, you know, climate positive technologies or else your data center may get rejected. We're starting to see this","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":38,"time":"23:39","seconds":1419,"speaker":"Kris Lovejoy","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-19-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":39,"time":"23:39","seconds":1419,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] around the United States where","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-19-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":40,"time":"23:40","seconds":1420,"speaker":"Kris Lovejoy","text":"Good.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":41,"time":"23:41","seconds":1421,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"local communities are coming together and saying, no, we don't want this locally here. Um, and you, you as an organization don't want to risk that. So it's better to plan from the start, not only because it's going to better be better longterm for your industry and your, your data center, it's going to be more entry efficient. You'll save money over time. Uh, but you're also avoiding the risk of a full rejection from local communities.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":42,"time":"24:02","seconds":1442,"speaker":"Kris Lovejoy","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah. And I also think there are some tips and tricks that, you know, people can do, like rack optimization, because it kind of drives me crazy that, you know, you can provision, you know, a certain amount of energy into a data center and oftentimes that energy isn't used. So it's kind","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-21-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":43,"time":"24:17","seconds":1457,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-21-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":44,"time":"24:17","seconds":1457,"speaker":"Kris Lovejoy","text":"[OVERLAP] of a park resource. So because there's, because it then, what happens is you have to, because that energy is being used, you have to make another connect request, you know, for another. It's just, it's just, it's kind of a mess that we're not as, you know, as efficient as we could be. But I think you and I are both passionate about this particular subject. But at the end of","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-21-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":45,"time":"24:37","seconds":1477,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-21-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":46,"time":"24:37","seconds":1477,"speaker":"Kris Lovejoy","text":"[OVERLAP] the day, you know, you need to make computers run. They run on electricity. So we got to figure out how to do that as efficiently as possible.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-21-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":47,"time":"24:44","seconds":1484,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, I'm curious. In particular, you mentioned your team is working on data center design and thinking through these problems. What are some of the key areas you're focusing on? So cooling, you mentioned rack optimization. What are the others?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":48,"time":"24:57","seconds":1497,"speaker":"Kris Lovejoy","text":"Um, density is just more of density. How can you pack more and make it, you know, make it work as efficiently and effectively as possible? And a lot of our customers, they've got, you know, older technologies, they're moving to high-performance compute, they're moving to GPUs. And they're just, you know, what they don't realize, when they're thinking about kind of the data center, and they're thinking about, so I've got a parked I've got capital that is in this existing data center. I've got all of this equipment that needs to be turned over. What we're working with them on is the fact that the infrastructure inside the data center itself has to change. And sometimes things like just the load on the floor, it can't handle the kind of the weight of this new equipment. So as you're thinking through the placement of the technologies, because the physical placement of the technologies is important, how the cooling systems, you know, need to be sort of optimized within that environment, the rack, or, you know, like how high, how wide the rack, all of these things factor into, you know, creating a footprint that is, you know, as friendly as possible, both from an economics and an environmental perspective.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":49,"time":"26:13","seconds":1573,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, it's interesting we bring this up because I feel like we've touched upon two major complaints that some folks have about AI. One being accuracy and particularly looking at like the enterprise side of this, because it's obviously gotten a lot better on the consumer side with web search and other tools. Two being, you know, efficiency as far as the environmental piece. And then I feel like there are a few others as well that I know you're also very informed on, you know, one being security and the implications of AI, you know, potentially leaking data or being used in attacks. Another being the idea of privacy and, you know, what does privacy look like in an AI world where your data is being used for training? I'd love your thoughts on those two areas as well.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":50,"time":"26:54","seconds":1614,"speaker":"Kris Lovejoy","text":"Okay, so those big questions. I think we're in a very interesting territory right now because I do think that there's a piece to this that we don't talk about very much, which is disparate pieces of data, which historically in isolation have not met any kind of jurisdictional requirement vis-a-vis privacy regulation. When two or three pieces of data come together, all of a sudden it's PII. And so from a privacy perspective, and I don't, you know, honestly, I don't think a lot of people understand the difference between privacy and security, which I always, it's just, it's just a reality, you know, privacy and just the two minute, like, you know, commercial break, you know, privacy being kind of an individual right that when I give my data to a third party, that third party inherits the obligation to assure that is accessible to me. that there's integrity, it doesn't change, and that when I ask to see it, I can see it. All of those things. And that it's not provided to anybody else. Those are the privacy requirements. And security is one of the mechanisms by which you can achieve control in order to meet these privacy requirements. Privacy in the AI world is very hard because sometimes we don't know what privacy is in our jurisdictions. And right now, we have a patchwork of privacy requirements. In the States, it's like variations on the same theme. When you go over to Europe, sometimes in Europe, you'll see rules where a corporation has the right to privacy. IP addresses are protected. It's a protected form of data. So the individual data element that is being used, as well as the combination of those data elements, they may create a privacy obligation that we have not seen. And so therefore, I think what organizations have to, again, going back to kind of thinking differently, we tend to think of compliance as a kind of a time-constrained activity where we go in and we take a look and we say, OK, I tested this code. Everything's fine. It's compliant. It meets the requirements for privacy. Done. doesn't work anymore. So you've almost got to get a continuous compliance construct put in place where you are continually monitoring how that data is coming together, how it is being connected, how it is being provided, where it's being processed, so that you can trigger, based on kind of that real-time analytics, that you may be evolving to a place where there is a privacy constraint that has to be taken into account. But again, this is just a fundamental rethinking of compliance activity from point in time to more of a continuous compliance thing. I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":51,"time":"29:57","seconds":1797,"speaker":"Kris Lovejoy","text":"also worry a lot about the integrity of data and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":52,"time":"30:01","seconds":1801,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Hmm.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-26-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":53,"time":"30:01","seconds":1801,"speaker":"Kris Lovejoy","text":"[OVERLAP] how, ironically, privacy will create constraints on forms of data which will make it very hard for underserved communities to become part of the tapestry of those who can enjoy the value and the benefits. Some things, and I talk a lot about this to the regulatory authorities, is I know that many nation states, they feel that these strong privacy rules are protecting their citizens. But small countries, when they put in place these privacy requirements, it makes it more expensive for businesses to do business with them, or to use the data for things like training, you know, like medical, you know, medical models, or, you know, financial models. And so therefore, it is potential that different populations are going to be left out of the AI ecosystems because the jurisdictional requirements make it too expensive for businesses to actually participate in working with those various communities. So I guess, you know, a long way of saying privacy is going to be a double-edged sword. Third piece of this, I'd say, is privacy. In order to have good privacy, you need to have visibility. And so that's the other little challenge we've got is, you know, privacy is all about constraining that visibility. And visibility, as I said, is the recipe for good privacy. So all of these things I think we're going to have to work out. I would venture to say that the new word that we're going to all be focused on is control. You know, we hear this word sovereignty. To me, the word sovereignty actually just means control. It's control of what data, when do I use that data, how do I use that data, where do I use that data, where do I process that data, what data center houses that data. And that control has to be manifested from an operational, a technical, as well as like a data layer perspective.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-26-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":54,"time":"32:06","seconds":1926,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I am really glad you brought up this idea of data as an evolving corpus that we need to keep compliant, not just in the moment where we launch, but over time.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":55,"time":"32:18","seconds":1938,"speaker":"Kris Lovejoy","text":"Go.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":56,"time":"32:19","seconds":1939,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Having a control plane and understanding of your AI systems is really crucial to actually enable them to stay compliant, not just launch compliant. And I think there's this other side because I love the differentiated security compliance and privacy here because they are connected but disparate topics. And, you know, the freedom of your data and the usage of your data is a certain topic. But there's also this idea of AI being used both by attackers and defenders on the security side. And we're already seeing AI incidents climb where AI is being leveraged by attackers from a security perspective. I saw that you actually made a prediction there's going to be a fully autonomous attack where AI takes down an enterprise security network in the next year, year and a half without any actual human capabilities pushing for it. Is this related to the expanding capabilities and security validation we're seeing with things like Cloud Mythos, where they're catching all these bugs that have been there for years? Or is this simply looking at and kind of predicting the progress of these frontier models?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":57,"time":"33:29","seconds":2009,"speaker":"Kris Lovejoy","text":"So, I mean, I'm looking at it from three different vantage points. I think from an attacker perspective, you know, I think the chaining of vulnerabilities, we knew this was going to happen. Anybody who had looked at, you know, kind of the cloud capabilities and has been, you know, sort of looking at agentic AI, you know that it's kind of inevitable. And so the inevitability is that typically speaking, you know, in my world, you know, there's the way it works. It's pretty simple, actually, is there if there's a threat and that threat is, you know, sort of an actor or a piece of malcode in the wild, and that threat can exploit a vulnerability, a weakness in a system, and then create an impact, then there is a risk. And I need to spend money. That's my job as a CISO, is to spend money to reduce the prevalence of the threat or the likelihood that the vulnerability can be, you know, and that's through patching. Well, what we know now is that, you know, attackers are able to find individual vulnerabilities faster than we ever have before. And so that means that we have to get better at detection and better at remediation. So that's one. Now what we're finding is vulnerabilities that have previously been called low-risk vulnerabilities. Now you can chain vulnerabilities, and you can create high-risk vulnerability by chaining together low-risk vulnerability. Okay, so that's upping the ante between, I found it. Now all of this, if you look at any organization, they've got a billion patches they have yet to apply, and they're all low-risk. Right. So, you know, like we talk about high risk, we don't talk about the low risk ones. So we get a whole corpus of things. So I think that it is going to be much more effective for attackers to use these tools to chain vulnerabilities to exploit. That's one. Two is I really worry about kind of the inadvertent activity. Anybody who's been playing around with agentic AI also knows that is very outcome oriented. This goes back to kind of the policy as code. So let's say you have an agentic workflow. So you've got an orchestration agent. You've got lots of little agents. Lots of little agents are going to lots of different, you know, data sources to, you know, to answer different questions. Now, all of a sudden, the agents who are very outcome oriented Your policy, which is constrained by the human mind, it's been written in such a way that you will, you know, define the guardrails for the agents. You didn't think about something. You didn't imagine something. Now all of a sudden, these very outcome agentic, you know, options are going out and they're performing their tasks and they're inadvertently taking you down because They just didn't understand how those guardrails worked. And we already saw an example of that, you know, within the last couple of weeks with the company that was doing the car rental stuff. Now we talk about inside. The other area I worry about and I talk about a lot is the potential for there to be some, and people hate when I talk about this, but I think it's important we talk about it. There are, we've always seen this, the actors inside an organization, insiders. Now there's inadvertent actors, they make mistakes, they do dumb things and things go down. That happens all the time. Then there's the, or they do things, they follow the rule book and it still goes down. That happens even more than they do dumb things. But there's the reality that there are people that are worried about things like losing their job to AI. And so we've seen this throughout history, that people that get nervous, that get afraid, get angry, they sometimes will act out. Now what we're talking about are the utility tools that allow you to chain vulnerabilities inside an organization. So what do you have? You have insiders that understand all of your weaknesses They have tools that they can go and they can build bespoke attacks, you know, for your organization. So I do think that there's multiple levels of my fear in this area. But a lot of it is because we are exposing ourselves to attacks and to outages based on our historic practice of only focusing on crown jewels, if you will. And I knew this was going to come back to bite us. But this kind of concept of only, only, you know, invest in protecting the things you care about is right to a point. Now we've gotten to a point where the stuff that we didn't worry about is a big problem.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":58,"time":"38:06","seconds":2286,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I appreciate that you have such a diverse perspective across the industry and I think you have a really interesting global lens that you're bringing to this conversation as well with your work in the EU and elsewhere. What other predictions do you have about what we'll see with AI and the AI build out in the next year or two?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":59,"time":"38:23","seconds":2303,"speaker":"Kris Lovejoy","text":"I mean, every day I wake up and I'm just waiting. You know, it's it's really it's a very exciting time for us because everything is changing so quickly. I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":60,"time":"38:35","seconds":2315,"speaker":"Kris Lovejoy","text":"do think that. And some of it has to do with the geopolitics, I. I do think that. There is going to be an interesting couple of years, because all of the things that we're talking about are now being conflated, and all these risks are converging when it comes to AI. And so I think some of the risk, what we're talking about right now is there's this recognition that businesses and nation states, in order to grow, they must quickly adopt AI technology. That's kind of the narrative. In order for them to adopt an AI technology, they have to have technology they can trust. They have to have a supply chain they can trust. They have to have energy and water to power the data centers. They have to have the data center infrastructure. So let's start at the beginning. A lot of nation states are just worried about the supply chain and the availability of technology and the fear that technology is going to be used as a tool of trade. So imagine that all of a sudden, you know, Amazon is not available, Microsoft is not available to me anymore, right? Somebody shuts off the cloud. That's something, whether it's credible or not credible, it's something that people are fearing. And so they're worried about technological dependence, and they're beginning to think through what does the alternative look like? to a world where I have, you know, absolute dependence on the U.S. So I do think that some of what AI is going to change is not necessarily AI. It's going to be things like we're going to be more focused on open source. So I think we're going to hear a lot about open source, and I think we're going to hear a lot about open source vulnerabilities. I also think that this concept of sovereignty and control is being read, and this goes back to the energy, you know, in talking to some of our customers, what they would say to us is, you know, I live in Europe and I worry about sovereignty. I worry about supply chain. I worry about data localization. But what it really means to me is I worry about control. I want to be able to run my workloads where I want to run my workloads, when I want to run my workloads, and I want to be able to pull them back into a local data center in my country when I need to do that. And so I think the other thing we're going to be talking about is just operational resilience and the ability in a sovereign construct, the ability to move data and move workloads from one location to another location. So I think that's a second thing. And I do think, you know, from an AI perspective, we're also going to be, you know, really thinking about, you know, kind of the cost of AI because it's a bit of a black box. And so I think AI, that kind of the economics is going to become a big thing, you know, along with the energy thing. I also think that there's going to be a big drive now toward autonomous robotics. I'm beginning to see a lot more robotics appearing. I was just at the AI Expo this past week. A lot of robotics being shown, a lot of drone technology being exhibited. So I think that, you know, autonomous technology in the form of drone or robotics is going to become the next frontier. And then I also think that AI is providing a lot of There's a lot of technical innovation going in and around quantum, so I'm thinking that the other shift that we're going to begin to see is we're going to see a lot more discussion about quantum and the potential risk and opportunity associated with quantum technology that is going to appear as well. It's a little bit of a roundabout way of saying it's not necessarily AI, it's what AI is creating from a worry perspective or a technology perspective is that what we're going to be digesting.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":61,"time":"42:32","seconds":2552,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I particularly love your points about autonomous robotics. I think you're spot on. That is the wave we're already seeing and it's going to continue. And I think we're not prepared for what is going to change as quantum comes on board, enabled by AI and with AI pushing it. So excited to see those changes, nervous about those changes. I'm right there with you. Chris, thank you so much for joining me today. It's been an absolute pleasure. Do you have any closing words for our audience and where can they follow you to continue to see your work?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":62,"time":"42:58","seconds":2578,"speaker":"Kris Lovejoy","text":"Oh, thank you. And I guess the best place is LinkedIn because I'm a pretty avid poster. The final words, I would say this is a really exciting time. You know, I think there is, I'm expecting the thing, you know, I didn't say is where I'm going to, I'm expecting a Luddite movement, you know, if you will. Remember what happened, you know, during the last, you know, industrial revolution, there was all of a sudden the Luddite movement is, you know, we're going to lose our jobs. We're going to, there's going to be","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":63,"time":"43:28","seconds":2608,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I'd argue we're already seeing it, honestly. People are trying to bomb data centers, trying to bomb someone's home. I think we're already seeing it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":64,"time":"43:34","seconds":2614,"speaker":"Kris Lovejoy","text":"Yeah. And that, I think, we're going to look back or our children or children's children are going to look back at this time period and say, wow, that was really a period in history that was either it was for the greater good or it wasn't. I want to be positive. But as a security and risk person, I'm also looking at this and saying,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":65,"time":"44:00","seconds":2640,"speaker":"Kris Lovejoy","text":"oi! This is why I have a house in the country and I buy heirloom seeds, just in case. I'm not at a full bunker state, but you know, you gotta be a little careful nowadays. But suffice to say, I think there's lots of opportunity. I would ask everybody who is thinking about agentic AI in particular, You know, these are important tools. We don't really fully understand. You have to be very thoughtful about what a control plane for agentic AI looks like. And a lot of the tools and technology constructs that we used in managing IT, including cloud, needs to be applied to this construct. Things like, again, registry, non-human identity, monitoring, policy, all of these things have to be implemented in order for you to use technologies like agentic AI at scale in a safe, secure, reliable, sovereign, and economically feasible way.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":66,"time":"45:06","seconds":2706,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Fantastic. Chris, thank you so much for joining me on Chain of Thought today. And to all of our listeners and folks watching on YouTube as well, remember that you can get so much more deep dives, essays, and all this good stuff at newsletter.chainofthought.show. Check it out and subscribe. Thank you so much for joining us. And Chris, thanks again.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy","episode":62,"guid":"6c940380-1567-4e48-b54e-3b9e05552fa3","episodeTitle":"The First Fully Autonomous AI Attack is Coming | Kris Lovejoy, Kyndryl","publishedAt":"2026-06-11","segmentIndex":67,"time":"45:24","seconds":2724,"speaker":"Kris Lovejoy","text":"Thanks, Conor.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/62-the-first-fully-autonomous-ai-attack-is-coming-kristin-lovejoy/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:18","seconds":18,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Is the AI framework era over? Let's talk about it. Welcome back to Chain of Thought, everyone. I am your host, Conor Bronsdon. My guest today has argued publicly earlier this year that the AI framework era is over, that the scaffolding layer that he actually helped build is collapsing into the model itself, and that context quality is the durable moat once agent loops get good enough. In fact, he runs a company that's betting on that thesis. I'm delighted to have Jerry Liu on the show today. Jerry is co-founder and CEO of LlamaIndex. He built one of the most installed pieces of AI plumbing of the last three years, the indexing and retrieval layer a generation of reg apps were stitched together with, and then took LlamaIndex into a new era by pivoting the company into managed document infrastructure with Llama Cloud and LlamaParse. He's made a really quite aggressive bet that the framework layer he helped popularize is the wrong place to play long term. You've probably seen him at a conference giving a fantastic talk. You've likely seen him on Twitter slash X. Jerry, great to have you on Chain of Thought. Welcome. And where are you joining us from?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":1,"time":"1:26","seconds":86,"speaker":"Jerry Liu","text":"Yeah, thanks for having me, Conor. I'm joining from, you know, beautiful San Francisco.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":2,"time":"1:31","seconds":91,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It is always a pleasure to see you when I'm in the Bay Area. And I feel like I often just run into you at a conference too. You are so busy these days with the success of Lama Index. And one of the ways that you have made the company so successful is with this aggressive bet that what you built originally is no longer the approach. The AI framework era is over, as you put it. What specifically died and what survives?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:56","seconds":116,"speaker":"Jerry Liu","text":"Yeah, so maybe there's probably a little bit of nuances to that statement too, and I can kind of help clarify it to the audience. But just to kind of trace through an evolution of the company, you know, we started off as kind of a core set of abstractions in open source land to help like developers back in 2023 build these initial applications over large language models. And at the time, you know, none of the patterns were fully formed yet. You know, people didn't really quite know what agents were. People were just starting to get the hang of this idea of retrieval augmented generation, or RAG, or feeding your private context into a model. And so I think basically when there's a space where things are still being figured out, and then there's kind of a lot of flexibility in the end application, and that's where there's kind of value in a framework layer because the framework provides you know the core abstractions to make it easier to build certain things and if you think about like life or just like software in general it's basically just a series of like abstractions layered on top of each other and so we were kind of just the open source abstractions at the base layer around the LLM that made it easier to both connect our data use different types of LLMs and then also experiment with different techniques like you know, retrieval, being able to do some sort of like query rewriting, and then eventually some sort of agentic reasoning harness. So you can plug in like tool calls and that type of stuff. And so I think basically, the reality is over the past three years, this space has obviously evolved quite a bit, the models themselves have gone exponentially better. But what that also meant is, you know, the kind of harnesses and the agentic applications themselves have also gone a lot better. And the core architecture and patterns around certain types of agents have solidified. And so it's not like, you know, frameworks in the abstract sense are kind of like, no longer relevant, like universally, you know, obviously, there's still web frameworks, there's still a bunch of like frameworks in general, that even like, today, like agents want to be able to use like certain types of abstractions on top of others, so they don't have to like rewrite everything from scratch. Um, but the reality is like a lot of the old patterns of just like, you know, really trying to figure out the different internals and mechanics of an agent, um, are less relevant today because a lot of those have, uh, solidified into these like general agent harnesses. If you look at Clawed Code, OpenClaw, you know, Manus, um, kind of any sort of like deep research agent out there. they all kind of start following general patterns where you start having abstractions appear at a higher level than at the code layer. So whereas at the code layer, you might need to import Python classes that wrap different LLM providers, at a higher level now it becomes how do you define a natural language set of skills, an MCP tool, how do you program this engine that's already running? And so there certainly is room for a set of abstractions at this layer too. And there are plenty of companies building stuff in this space, whether it's OpenCode or these protocols, being able to help support this new age of agent programming. I think for us personally as a company, we did start off at the framework layer, but fundamentally I think our mission was always connecting data without webs. And so I think throughout the years, you know, we could have operated, I guess, continued to operate at the framework layer as it went up in abstraction. But I think for us, we decided to really identify and kind of solve an opportunity where we realized even as the AI agents were getting better, the context layer itself was not solved. A lot of folks were uploading unstructured document-based data into these systems, and a lot of that data was just not represented the right way. And a lot of the legacy kind of OCR technology themselves, you know, was not actually doing a good job at reading information out of these pages. And so we kind of basically narrowed our focus as a framework to kind of becoming core infrastructure to help provide, you know, high quality context to these evolving AI agents, which is, yeah, a little bit different than being at the framework layer. But we do think, especially in our position right now, is something that should be durable even as these agents improve. Now, of course, there's still plenty of space for other types of companies around the stack. A lot of folks are building various types of contexts that plug in through MCP or skills, systems of record, that's still a thing. As I mentioned, there's still higher level abstractions and frameworks. It's just those are a little bit different than what we started with.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":4,"time":"6:31","seconds":391,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, I love this idea of context quality as a moat because increasingly it has become like a watchword for folks this last really like six months in particular, I feel like, where the push to have great context has just exploded as coding agents have gotten better and better. Data has become, you know, we've known it's been differentiated for a long time, but it is just becoming so clear that to get the most out of, you know, the next frontier model, being able to fuel it, you need to have great documents, great data for it. And I look at the way we are approaching enterprise AI today and how much data is still locked away in silos, and both from a tribal knowledge perspective, but very much so from a document perspective. And it seems incredibly clear that this pivot or focusing, as you put it, has a ton of value for enterprise in particular, as they say, okay, how can I get all of the massive corpus of documents and data that we've established over the maybe decades that we've been in existence into extremely useful, high-quality content that can be fed to our LOMs of choice, whether that's, you know, an open model or whether that's, you know, a frontier closed model. So I would wonder from your perspective, have you seen a behavior change that either drove your decision to make this pivot for LOM Index or is now driving this kind of next phase of the company?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":5,"time":"8:12","seconds":492,"speaker":"Jerry Liu","text":"Yeah, it's it's a good question. I think the context need has kind of always been present, even since when we started the framework. Part of the reason the framework itself got popular is because, you know, literally, you know, you had all these large language models, they had a 4000 token context window. I think the first thing a lot of builders trying to do is, you know, how do I just get this understand my company knowledge base? And obviously, the company knowledge base was not going to fit within the 4000 context window, whether it was your Notion database, you know, your kind of set of Jira tickets, you know, your Salesforce, that type of stuff, like it just wasn't going to fit. And so how do you figure out patterns to kind of inject all ones with the right set of information at any given time? which gave rise to these techniques of RAG in 2023. And so I think even from that point onwards, there is some, almost like by definition, need to kind of provide context to an LLM at the time in order to make it actually do stuff. And I think as the AI space has evolved, like the LLM part evolved into some like general agentic harness, you know, there's Clod, Cowork, ClodCode, OpenClod, Manus, like some of these like general agents implementations that you can basically use from a third party provider. Um, and then, you know, uh, there's all the things you can plug into the agent harness. So MCP tools, skills, um, the actual task that you want to define. Um, by definition, this is almost like the, this is the context layer, right? And the Frontier Labs are building these incredible generalized reasoning capabilities, um, that, uh, need access to like external services, tools, and context to actually do things. And so when I think of the context layer, it's literally anything surrounding the model, like the set of services that it has access to in order to do things. And this extends, this could be anything, like it could be an existing piece of software that the agent is able to use. Like if it has MCB connectors to Confluence or Salesforce, you know, those are providers of context. That's why I think people think this idea of a system of record is still going to be around because agents need a way to actually store, act, and operate on data. And then, you know, there's like web context, being able to actually crawl the internet and being able to efficiently search for things so that the agent has access, like live information. There's structured data, you know, stuff locked up within SQL databases. And for us, it's like document context, like stuff that's locked up within, you know, these unstructured document containers within your file system in the form of like PDFs or PowerPoints that need advanced technology like new age OCR to actually read information off the page. And so I think for any builder or basically any software company today, one of the boats is actually just being a provider of like tools and context to the AI agent. Or maybe to put it another way, I think a lot of software companies are trying to figure out how to make their software and services more agent native and also based on consumption. And so you know instead humans using your sassful or humans you know reading your documents or humans doing you know searches in google you now have agents actually going in and you know calling a ton of mcp tools and writing scripts and doing these calls and a lot of the world is basically redesigning these patterns to make it suitable so that agents can like launch massive volumes of queries through any piece of software to both like get information and also do things Um, and so I think that's, uh, kind of how it's evolved over the years, but even from the beginning, like almost like, again, by definition, like you need like kind of this idea of specifying some sort of task plus like additional data for, um, AI to do things. Um, and I think the, like functionality of that has only expanded over the years as AI agents have gotten more advanced.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":6,"time":"12:02","seconds":722,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, the fact that even Mercury for banking has a CLI now, I think really","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-5-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":7,"time":"12:07","seconds":727,"speaker":"Jerry Liu","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-5-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":8,"time":"12:07","seconds":727,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] says","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-5-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":9,"time":"12:07","seconds":727,"speaker":"Jerry Liu","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-5-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":10,"time":"12:08","seconds":728,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] a lot about what we're trying to provide. We've","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-5-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":11,"time":"12:11","seconds":731,"speaker":"Jerry Liu","text":"[OVERLAP] Ethan.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-5-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":12,"time":"12:13","seconds":733,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"not to say that developer experience has gone away, but agent experience is as important. If not, I would argue much more important, especially not just now, but in the months ahead. we need to be providing all this information to agents to make them special. And part of this is because, you know, native function calling has gotten so good, construction following has gotten much better, agent loops are at least good enough, and the models are just so much smarter than they were two years ago. I think you used to be able to see this major gulf between search and frontier models, um, And particularly since, you know, DeepSeek really shot onto the scene, but I would look at Kimmy and others where open models are not far behind. And now I should caveat, I haven't gotten access to mythos yet. So maybe there is this massive leap coming that I'm not seeing. But right now it feels like a lot of the differentiation that you're seeing between companies is how effectively are they able to give an LLM data and context and tools and provide it the right governance to just go and run essentially.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":13,"time":"13:18","seconds":798,"speaker":"Jerry Liu","text":"Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think basically all the generalized frontier labs are converging on kind of similar ideas, with like some slight implementation differences. And the idea is, you know, they're all kind of settling on this idea of coding as the first layer of abstraction that they're just getting down really good at helping to automate. And in the process, because coding is basically a proxy for computer use, then you can kind of use some of the techniques and capabilities there and use that to basically automate any type of knowledge work, not just software engineering. That is why interfaces today are so popular because they're basically tuned for these like coding agents are really good at writing bash and writing code and actually just enabling them to do that to basically operate any interface. So I think the frontier models honestly are probably all going to start like they're all going after kind of like the same type of things. You know maybe one day it's like Opus is better at like financial knowledge work, maybe GPT 5.5 is like a little bit better at certain types of coding. they're all kind of going after it. And I think open weight models are catching up. I mean, I think it's kind of impressive to see kind of the diversity of like parameter sizes are basically almost like simulating what, you know, Opus 4 was, you know, like a few months ago or half a year ago with like a smaller parameter size model. So the advancements are great. I think for everybody else in the space, it just means think about like any task that like you might have difficulty like solving now in a generalized fashion. Um, and like basically instead of like overengineering your stack, if you just like wait six months, um, with a more general agent harness, like it will probably get better and be able to solve the task. Assuming you actually just like specified the parameters on the task, right.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":14,"time":"15:01","seconds":901,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, I totally agree. And I think your point about Frontier Labs in particular solidifying around coding as this first abstraction layer is so apt. A, it's just a great way to communicate with computers, which enables so much, particularly as it becomes so much cheaper to automate and we now can do differentiated automations, not just linear ones. But I, I would look back to a conversation I had with the poolside co-founders on the podcast. I've got a little over a year ago now, something like that, where they","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-7-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":15,"time":"15:31","seconds":931,"speaker":"Jerry Liu","text":"[OVERLAP] you","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-7-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":16,"time":"15:31","seconds":931,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] talked about this idea of coding is the way to AGI. And, you know, that's a, it's a bit of a hype phrase, but I think we're really seeing that come to fruition where it's like, Oh yeah, everything is converging around being excellent at coding and then being able to automate tasks because of that. And we're just seeing that push forward.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-7-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":17,"time":"15:51","seconds":951,"speaker":"Jerry Liu","text":"Yeah, I think I think it's definitely a proxy. I think it's because the way your computer is designed is that, you know, if you like code and program around it, it basically gets you to most of the way of what you want anyways, because there's like the command line, you can like write scripts, you can execute tasks, like every service has like an API that you can just call. And you know, like, with coding, you get a lot of the way there. I think Yeah, the next part is probably just like vision capabilities. I think with advanced vision capabilities, you can start looking at things that you know not just at the code or like text level but um you know actually be able to take like an entire computer screen and just like operate it at a visual level so you can know what to click and you know know what you're looking at zoom in on certain things um i think that's probably the next step that every frontier lab is is going for is just like combining uh coding which is an efficient way of like you know writing automation and operating over interfaces with just like vision um and even like operating over video streams um so they can just like more intelligently take actions","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":18,"time":"16:48","seconds":1008,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, it's interesting to see this all converging as well with robotics and the approaches there of, OK, how can we now get these to take more intelligent actions in the real world? It's going to be fascinating to see how this all develops the next few months.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":19,"time":"17:03","seconds":1023,"speaker":"Jerry Liu","text":"[OVERLAP] There's a","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-9-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":20,"time":"17:03","seconds":1023,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] But in particular, as you mentioned, the way to make this effective, whether that's trying to have a million door dashers where a camera so that your robots can get better at delivering food, whether that's getting as much excellent code or bad code that I wrote back in the day into your model for training so you can be great at coding or whether it's trying to get your particular business to or your particular set of agents to understand your business through the document context and other context that you establish over the years. It all comes back to, you know, training data and context and I think this is a bit of a simplification, but I would argue that, you know, we can kind of look at context just like a crucial type of data. It's almost silly for us sometimes to not conflate the two terms. Like obviously there are reasons not to, but like anytime you say data, you could also think of data as just like context for a model in the right situation. And you've made this bet that context quality is what's going to compound over the next couple of years. Can you talk to me about why you're so convinced this is going to be durable instead of just another commoditized step?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-9-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":21,"time":"18:13","seconds":1093,"speaker":"Jerry Liu","text":"Yeah, for sure. Well, you know, I can talk a little bit about maybe like documents in particular, but you know, start with the overall space. I think in general, you know, if you think about the context layer, I think, as I mentioned, the overall like agent harness is kind of a blank slate. Like this, the Frontier Labs will give you, you know, you have access to cloud co-work, you have access to like Claude Code, like there's no kind of starting thing. Like you basically have to put in the instructions to actually get it to do things. Um, and I think, like, once you start, like, operating with that kind of mindset, then, you know, there's certain types of tasks where you have to give it a lot of instructions by definition for it to actually do things well. Because not only is it specified, can you specify that task in, like, a single sentence of natural language, you now have to give it a lot of context. Like, for instance, if I'm trying to, um, you know, like, prepare for a customer call that's upcoming on the calendar, Um, it's not like I can just say, I need you to prepare for my customer call. I need to actually feed it the, you know, previous 5 to 10 transcripts on the customer, um, actually look into kind of the email threads of what the recent conversation history has been. And so there are just like tasks that by definition need like a lookup of kind of external sources of data. And, um, you know, you kind of need ways of actually providing that data for, uh, the task to kind of be more well specified so you can actually solve it. Um, and I think the way I think about vertical AI, which we're not doing, but you know, a lot of these vertical AI companies, um, is basically packaging contacts in a way that's like a little bit easier, um, to kind of, uh, solve certain tasks instead of relying on users to do it themselves. You know, I think Claude Coburg is such a blank slate and I'm pretty sure if you equipped it with the right, like tools and MCPs and skills, um, you could basically use it to do anything, um, that like is possible within the current, like, you know, um, realm of possibility of like AI agents but it's just certain things will require you to put in like you know a lot of work like you would need to write and really tune like some giant skills file plus like MCP tools for it to solve like some sort of knowledge task and you know the reality is most people either don't have time or they don't know how to or some combination of both and Um, especially if you look at all these like AI solutions in certain verticals, like whether it's financial research or kind of healthcare, I mean, who knows, like, you know, anthropics kind of building some of these tools too. But basically, you know, like by providing a tailored interface to solve a task, it just makes it way easier to kind of actually do the thing with AI versus like relying on you actually having to program this like blank slate to actually do everything. Um, and I think that's kind of where the value of a lot of like vertical AI provides. is I almost think of vertical AI as a form of context to help solve more domain-specific tasks. Now, kind of going into a little bit what we do, because context itself, I think, is super general. It's just literally any set of inputs you provide to the model, including both inputs plus task plus external data. We're specifically interested in document context and turning a PDF into markdown or some extracted form of information that's like easy and accurate for the agents to understand. I think the way that we get compared is against both kind of legacy OCR tools. There's like 25 plus years of document OCR tools that their entire job was to convert PDFs to like markdown or some sort of text. And the other alternative is you feed an image of like the screenshot directly into the frontier model. and then basically just use the frontier model as an OCR tool. So I think that's kind of... uh like that that's kind of the basis of comparison here and i think for us um we kind of see a lot of opportunity in building something that's just like extremely high accuracy um at low cost if we just like focus on both like very fine-tuned models plus like agentic harness techniques um only on document understanding um i think the reality with all the frontier models um All the frontier models are getting better at like general visual understanding. You look at Gemini, Opus, GPT, every new release, they're starting to climb the benchmarks on like general visual understanding, but they're also just tuned for coding, reasoning, and a lot of other tasks. And especially if you're trying to like unlock context or just like parse a million PDFs, you really need something that's both extremely high accuracy, but also really cheap. And I think the way the frontier models are tuned, they're just not incentivized to actually do that because they're tuned for like high intelligence tasks. And so what we basically want to provide is, or the opportunity that we see is providing just really deep tech to both like parse and extract documents with extremely, extremely high accuracy, low cost, plus like being able to provide relevant metadata annotations and tags on these documents. that then provide these AI agents access to almost like audit trails back to the source document. If you can trace back to the exact words and draw a box around the words that a legal contract came from when an AI agent generates a response, that's a very powerful tool in a lot of vertical AI stacks, whether it's a big company or a small company. Um, and so we kind of think of ourselves as building like just a general toolkit plus all the surrounding metadata. That's also really high accuracy, uh, for AI agents to access like any pool of documents. And, um, for us, like hopefully it should be, uh, enough of remote that, um, is differentiated from like users trying to do it with frontier models themselves.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":22,"time":"23:59","seconds":1439,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Are you seeing particular verticals adopt your stack more aggressively?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":23,"time":"24:06","seconds":1446,"speaker":"Jerry Liu","text":"Yeah, for sure. You know, I think for us, um, the typical verticals that we go after, uh, reflect industries that have a lot of their contacts locked up in documents. Um, and I totally acknowledge, like there are a lot of companies that honestly, like they don't have a lot of documents. Um, if your entire, you know, um, a stack is basically dependent on my code, for instance. We don't typically index code bases, that's typically the domain of my coding agents. But within legal, within financial services, within insurance, within manufacturing, healthcare, education, government, And then basically the tech versions of all these. There are a lot of use cases where they're just like either humans, or just a lot of like inherent knowledge bases that contain, you know, like millions if not more of like just unstructured document based data. And this is kind of like the uh, the basis of a lot of projects that if you go into these companies, um, they're really trying to automate a lot of workflows that typically humans used to do and using kind of AI to actually understand all the information within these docs, extract out the right information and also take actions.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":24,"time":"25:14","seconds":1514,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I imagine accuracy becomes a major differentiator, especially as you're working with regulated industries that are touching customer funds.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":25,"time":"25:23","seconds":1523,"speaker":"Jerry Liu","text":"Yeah, that's actually super important. And the reason why I think it's also hard to just like DIY your own stack with a frontier model. I think what, if you look at Opus 4.7, Jupyter 5.5, you know, they're like not bad at understanding like medium complexity documents, but it kind of gives a deception of like, it'll get you 80% accuracy over your document corpus. Well, there'll be like 20% of documents that uh just like it'll hallucinate some number um or uh you know it'll just like represent a table wrong um the issue in a lot of these use cases is that basically makes it below the accuracy bar for like what you can actually operate with because with 20% hallucination rate that means if you actually you know try to extract out information or answer questions over that data the downstream AI agent workflow is going to be disrupted um and kind of any sort of like straight through automation with agents um it makes it a little harder to trust, given the gap in accuracy. And so a lot of these require really high accuracy, 95% plus, especially in more sensitive use cases, with human-in-the-loop review on some of the extracted data.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":26,"time":"26:35","seconds":1595,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So are you seeing a tension between agentic pipelines where the model decides what to extract and then deterministic pipelines that have more audibility? How is that functioning with these regulated enterprises?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":27,"time":"26:46","seconds":1606,"speaker":"Jerry Liu","text":"Yeah, I think maybe just to reframe the question a little bit, I think there's kind of two use cases for using AI to automatically extract information from documents, which is basically what we do as a company. And so I know our kind of mission, our tagline was you know, you can kind of use our stuff to unlock context from documents and feed it to AI agents. One practical instantiation of that is you have a bunch of data that's in the form of documents, maybe in your Box, Dropbox, Microsoft, SharePoint. you want to create a knowledge base from those documents and put it into a vector database. That basically means that you use R capabilities to do that first pass OCR on top of the documents, convert it into Markdown, and then downstream operations become like chunking, embedding, putting into some storage system so you can actually search over it. So I think that's kind of like one of the use cases where you're structuring context in a way such that you can use it for any downstream agent, whether that agent is like simple, you know, kind of like a low sophistication agent or something that's like super advanced, like flood code. And I think that's a very common use case. Basically, any enterprise wants to create some agent ready knowledge base that can give some agent like the ability to do things. Now the second use case is kind of related but a little bit different in that there's a lot of these like human workflows that have existed already prior to AI agents where humans are basically just like reviewing massive piles of paperwork and then doing like manual data entry into systems. whether it's like, you know, onboarding, claims, invoices, and, you know, like KYC, that type of stuff. There's a lot of, like, existing software where it's really just a helper interface for humans to upload a bunch of documents, help, like, Automatt put flags on some values, and then enable them to, like, more easily do data entry and correct, like, wrong values. And I think the advantage of a lot of this technology, especially with what we have in comparison to legacy OCR tools, is it just like massively increases the potential to actually automate the extraction of all these documents with really high accuracy. It's a little bit less that story of like I'm gonna you know structure all these documents into a knowledge base and give it to an AI agent. It is a little bit more deterministic too because there's usually like business rules and flags you want to apply and then systems you want it to route to. But it's still like a super important use case because like a lot of these companies just like have a lot of folks just like kind of doing this task. That's like relatively repetitive. And I think if like they use slightly better technology to actually understand these documents and translate it into a digitalized representation, you both be like saving a lot of money and build a process a lot more volume. Um, that's actually pretty common in a lot of these industries too. Um, and that's where we're seeing some, you know, some kind of usage as well.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":28,"time":"29:49","seconds":1789,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It's interesting because it seems like from what you're saying, if coding agents are basically the abstraction layer that models are centralizing around, and you are enabling this other primitive of the file system to be unlocked, is this telling us about what the future or I guess what does this tell you about the future of how agents are going to evolve based off of this like clear abstraction layer and you know crucial primitive?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":29,"time":"30:22","seconds":1822,"speaker":"Jerry Liu","text":"So I'm not actually convinced the file system plus coding agents is going to be like the future, so to speak, like a year from now, a year and a half, two years from now. Honestly, I have no idea. So I think I'm going to leave that to kind of whoever wants like drop a prediction. I do think that's kind of the current state of the art because like coding agents are proxy for computer use and vision capabilities aren't quite there to help like you know these agents massively stream like real-time video yet and so this is the one of the closer representations towards just being able to automate a bunch of stuff on your computer. You know you combine that with now this abstraction of the file system is like fly ready and it's ready for coding agents to use and these agent harnesses are also very good at kind of using file systems to help like navigate existing documents you know like retrieve the right context and then like you know take actions over them. And so I think it's a very powerful abstraction right now that actually solves a good chunk of knowledge work. And I think where we come in is, again, we basically would be one of the core modules if there are document-based types of data to help unlock contacts from those containers into the file system. Going into the future though, honestly I have no idea. The thing is, there's probably going to be some new abstraction that's not just coding. All the vision stuff that I mentioned, there's probably going to be something there that allows them to more generally see the screen and do actions. There might be new types of operating systems that actually make it a little bit friendlier for agents to do things on top of. Yeah, but I think for me, I reason from first principles, even if the harnesses or even the core primitives change, going from file systems, CLI, and coding to something a little bit more vision-based, this concept of context, I think, still matters quite a bit. And I think for us, I feel reasonably confident in our position of being a durable layer, even as these agent patterns evolve.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":30,"time":"32:27","seconds":1947,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, I was wondering about this when you brought up the idea of, oh, the reason why we're converging on code today is because that's the easiest way to just communicate with computers, essentially.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":31,"time":"32:39","seconds":1959,"speaker":"Jerry Liu","text":"[OVERLAP] Yep.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-19-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":32,"time":"32:39","seconds":1959,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] And I was kind of going like, okay, well, we're already seeing changes in our hardware layer. You know, it's not just GPUs and CPUs anymore. You know, we've got TPUs, we've got XPUs, we're expanding. Are we going to see a total rethinking of what a computer is? I mean, we've already seen people talking about it. There's this whole idea of Neuralink, etc. Everyone's trying things with vision. I don't know, but it seems like we are at the onset of a new hardware wave too, though it may take a little longer, that is going to match agents maybe more specifically.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-19-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":33,"time":"33:17","seconds":1997,"speaker":"Jerry Liu","text":"Yeah it's possible. I think there might be a new hardware wave and you would know more than I do on this in terms of just like kind of the underlying infra and hardware that powers some of these evolving models especially as some of the architectures like evolve and change and that type of stuff. I'm not actually sure that there will be like an entirely new software layer though for AI because the way it works right now with AI is like And part of the reason it's so powerful is instead of trying to reinvent every part of the software stack, the Frontier Labs just made it really easy to operate on top of existing tools everyone's already using. So they're technically not reinventing Windows or Mac or Photoshop or even a lot of these SaaS tools. The idea of MCP, the idea of skills, the idea of actually just being able to write code but import Python libraries is operating on top of existing abstractions that have already existed. And so I do think it's more likely that they're going to try to build something that runs on Mac or Windows, even in a generalized computer use way. And then later on, there might be a new agent-native operating system. And I'm sure Microsoft or something will come out with that, if they haven't already tried. But basically, I think the overall AI trend is to adapt with existing tools and kind of go from there.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":34,"time":"34:33","seconds":2073,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, this brings to mind the framing of kind of this whole episode, which is, hey, LlamaIndex went from an open source framework to this big pivot. How did you do it successfully? Because I think there are a lot of folks listening or, you know, reading Twitter who are going, Uh, I'm a little worried my startup's going to get killed by Claude Code. Uh, I'm a","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-20-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":35,"time":"34:54","seconds":2094,"speaker":"Jerry Liu","text":"[OVERLAP] Mm.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-20-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":36,"time":"34:55","seconds":2095,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] little worried that a frontier lab is going to demolish whatever I'm doing because they simply start to do it better. They are able to automate it away. How have you made LlamaIndex so durable?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-20-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":37,"time":"35:06","seconds":2106,"speaker":"Jerry Liu","text":"[OVERLAP] It's a good question. I mean, I wouldn't say we're in the clear yet, I'm going to be totally honest. I mean, we're","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-20-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":38,"time":"35:10","seconds":2110,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Fair.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-20-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":39,"time":"35:11","seconds":2111,"speaker":"Jerry Liu","text":"[OVERLAP] not like,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-20-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":40,"time":"35:11","seconds":2111,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":41,"time":"35:11","seconds":2111,"speaker":"Jerry Liu","text":"again, we're not Microsoft. I do think like at this stage, literally anything could happen. Like, you know, you look at companies are even much more scale than we are. And I'm pretty sure they're also having constant like existential crises every time there's kind of some some like new model release coming out. I do think that what we have done has put us in a bit more of a durable position, compared to what we were like three years ago. And I think, to be honest, it's not like, you know, for any potential founders, like, it's, it's not like an easy process, you like are fundamentally kind of thinking about how to disrupt your own product, your own product strategy. And then also kind of maybe almost like move the audience of who you're serving. And there's going to be a core group that remains to kind of like some other group that maybe is like a little bit more adjacent to what you were originally serving. And so I think just like all these questions, you know, it's not an easy task. But I do think, you know, one thing that's interesting is you listen to all these podcasts of folks with companies that are like much bigger than where we are today. And they're all kind of like wondering the same things. Like, I think even these like very seasoned business leaders at public SaaS companies are trying to figure out how to disrupt their business or figure out how to like completely reinvent their product. And so I guess the only thing I'll say is, you know, you're not the only one. And for pretty much like companies that are a thousand times bigger than you are also trying to do the same thing. Um, and that's harder than you trying to do it yourself. And so I think that's one of the things I'll say. In general, I think, especially in this AI landscape, everybody has to be extremely on their toes and just be willing to reinvent their ICP. And I know that has some potential issues for continuity. Um, but you know, at the same time, if you are able to do it, um, and even for like some period of time, it helps you establish your foothold and, uh, just be able to like serve some like emerging need in the AI market. And the benefit is because like everybody's so interested in AI, when something does land, um, typically grows pretty quickly.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":42,"time":"37:15","seconds":2235,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"How did you have to alter your own, I guess, internal company strategy as you made this pivot? Did you have to change your hiring processes or have you changed them in other ways due to what's going on?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":43,"time":"37:28","seconds":2248,"speaker":"Jerry Liu","text":"Oh, yeah. I mean, I mean, I think, I mean, this entire journey and, you know, luckily, I think we hired kind of like some some core folks that, you know, are are like, really invested. And just like this, this overall North Star that we had, actually, I don't think it's changed too much, even if the product surface and you know, the ICP itself has changed. The North Star was always like figuring out how to get data into LLMs. I mean, I think that basically was how the company started. And to some extent, that's pretty much like still what we are doing, trying to figure out how to get data into LLMs, just maybe operating out like a little bit different of a layer. I think people understood that mission. And I think part of the goal was to understand like, okay, what are the best tools actually serve that mission? I think in the beginning it was a framework because people just didn't really have anything really settled down. So the best way to build those tools was something that just made it easier for folks to build like various types of apps and connect their data in various ways. I think as those patterns emerged, it became clear One of","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":44,"time":"38:28","seconds":2308,"speaker":"Jerry Liu","text":"the valuable pieces you could provide is basically just providing really deep tech around a certain piece of context. Because the abstractions were solidifying, but the need for high-quality production context was still evolving. Um, just communicating that to the team, um, and just accept that there's going to be friction. And then yes, like hiring will obviously change depending on what you actually build. You know, we need like kind of core applied AI researchers. Um, if you're interested, let me know, um, to actually kind of work on the frontier of document understanding, um, capabilities and actually, you know, like do like deep tech, like ML, not just AI engineering, like actual ML, right? Like, you know, model tuning, training, that type of stuff. Um, and so, you know, I think when you're a startup, you just have to adapt.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":45,"time":"39:11","seconds":2351,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Jerry, now's when I have to ask you to drop your email or best way for folks to get in touch if they are listening and they do want to apply. Where should they go?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":46,"time":"39:19","seconds":2359,"speaker":"Jerry Liu","text":"Yeah, for sure. There is llamaindex.ai slash careers. If you're interested, you know, we're looking for a variety of roles. I think at the time of whenever this comes out, I'm sure the roles may have changed too, because, you know, there's always kind of expanded needs across like go to market and also edge. I think the other piece is, you know, we're pretty active on socials, so we're pretty active on LinkedIn. You can follow us on LlamaIndex and also on Twitter, you know, and I have a Twitter account too.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":47,"time":"39:46","seconds":2386,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Some folks may have seen you on Twitter, that is for sure. Jerry is fairly popular there, to say the least. And I will co-sign here and say I know a lot of incredible folks at Lahman Index, so it seems like it's a cool place to work, though I haven't actually done it myself. So definitely check that out if there are any roles that are of interest to you. I want to bring it back to something you said before we derailed on hiring a little more. And it's really poignant, but also I'm finding it mildly concerning as I think more about it, which is this idea of, you know, the whole job of Lama Index is getting data into LMs. And it's making me think about What a high percentage of my own job today is just that problem. So I guess really it just brings to mind this point that you made earlier of like, look, this may not be durable forever, but What we're doing today is really valuable because I mean, so much of the value creation happening at companies around the world today is that exact problem of how do we effectively get data into LLMs? How do we make sure it's accurate? How do we just enable these models to help us run faster? If we all think that velocity and throughput is rapidly increasing through LLMs, that we need to do the same to keep up whether it's in our own jobs or for our companies. I mean, that's a very valuable place to be.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":48,"time":"41:07","seconds":2467,"speaker":"Jerry Liu","text":"Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, I think, you know, there's this existential question of just like, how much are we just an L1 in general? But yes, like also, I think as I do think as humans, we basically are kind of responsible for at least like defining the task specifications and understanding it's like similar to eventually like how you would communicate to another human from a junior to eventually a senior employee at their function and be able to give them enough like context to get on board and get started. And that includes all the data that might be present that you don't explicitly communicate, but that they have to go and research themselves. And so they would go in, look at your internal company knowledge base, look at your transcripts, look at your calendar, email, and be able to synthesize stuff. And that's basically what's happening with Outlumps today. You give a task specification, they look at your context, they go do things, and this only gets better as the models get better.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":49,"time":"42:00","seconds":2520,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"We've talked a lot about context today, but I'm curious to get your take on agent memory, which is something that folks are starting to increasingly talk about. We had a great episode with Rich Mandelake on it that I totally recommend folks check out. What's your take on this and how memory and context should be interacting?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":50,"time":"42:17","seconds":2537,"speaker":"Jerry Liu","text":"Yeah, I think memory is basically just a form of I guess like persistent context. I kind of think of it as like, yeah, kind of, I'm still kind of forming my opinions about this. I think there's different types of memory. I mean, on one hand, there's just like, this idea of a system of record, like entries that you update in a database, just because you need like, a table of things, a store of things. I mean, just think about if you make a new entry in a CRM or you make a new entry in a Notion, right? That is a form of memory because you're updating your context within some system or record and then with the ability to store and retrieve from it. And I think there's a lot of ideas around like how agents update their state that basically revolve around that. It could be updating like an actual database, updating a SaaS tool. And with, you know, Karpathy's tweet, it was around like being able to build and update like your own internal wiki, which is basically a system of record on your file system. I mean, I think that's kind of like just a general applicable practice that literally anyone using a coding agent can do today, you know, kind of build some internal knowledge base of just like a set of files that you can lock up later. Oftentimes I find, especially for non-technical people or people that are a little bit too lazy to code, like myself these days sometimes, the simpler the abstraction, the better. And so this concept of having memory just be a pool of files on your file system is kind of nice to think about because it's pretty easy to represent and store. I think there are certainly more complicated forms of memory. There's ways of being able to actually synthesize some sort of graph from your memory or something, form entity relationships, be able to synthesize summaries. I personally have not spent a ton of time building those systems. I'm sure there are folks that have a lot more experience there. And I do think, you know, maybe for some of these frontier labs, when they bake in memory as one of the features, you do a lot of research to kind of understand some of the more advanced primitives that actually enable users to store various forms of state so that, you know, they don't have to retype like various types of contexts for the next task. But I think for general users, what I'm interested in a lot of times is just these dead simple abstractions that literally anyone can just take today. And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":51,"time":"44:34","seconds":2674,"speaker":"Jerry Liu","text":"people can still use that as an initial instantiation of memory for basically any task that they do.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":52,"time":"44:41","seconds":2681,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, I had a conversation, I mean, recorded this morning, actually, with Tyler Akito, who's the CTO of Red Panda. And I think it'll come out the week before this episode, so if it didn't, I apologize to everyone who's watching this and doesn't have that right context. But he talked about a paper that they're working on where they're working with a psychologist to basically identify trends in agents and think through, like, what are we missing as far as how agents think and operate in the world. And one of the things that came up for us and we talked briefly about was this idea of almost like cultural memory, the training memory, that we're starting to see emerge across different frontier model families. And I think the example that is obvious to folks who are maybe too much on Twitter like myself is, oh, OpenAI really loves goblins, evidently. Like, okay, GPT, like, sure. Or you can look at some of the ticks that Claude has picked up along the way and how it is kind of seen by many as treating things a little differently than the OpenAI family of models. And I think we're starting to see this kind of emerging, almost like model lineage. You know, you brought that up earlier in this conversation, this idea of, look, the models are converging on what they can do, but there's this like different flavors almost of what's happening there. And I'm curious if you have a perspective around, you know, what do you think is driving this? Is it related to essentially the training data and context of being provided? Is it, more about the alignment approach that the model teams are taking? Do you expect to see this kind of almost like differentiated diverging cultures occur? Like what do you expect to happen on the model front?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":53,"time":"46:25","seconds":2785,"speaker":"Jerry Liu","text":"I think it's a fascinating topic. I will say, I probably don't have that much experience to actually speak to it, so I mostly speak to it as an observer. When I think about memory, especially because we're kind of like the builders on top of these models, it's typically the stuff that is individual user-based to help source state, to help solve your task, and less like the general memory. i think a lot of the pre-trained memory is super interesting though because obviously there's like personality differences between 5.5 and like opus and obviously they all have like these different texts they write a little bit differently i think","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":54,"time":"46:56","seconds":2816,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":55,"time":"46:56","seconds":2816,"speaker":"Jerry Liu","text":"that's actually been one of my top complaints is a lot of these models at least in my opinion my humble opinion are absolutely trash at writing according to how i want them to actually write and it might be a skill issue on my end but basically like i think the the ability to actually have both this personality characteristics, which actually does flow into your writing too. I think a lot of it's a result of post-training. And you know, it's kind of interesting. There's all these RL environments that are being sold to all these Frontier Labs these days. I almost wonder if it's just like you do some data distribution of like all the different environments and sims that like every Frontier Lab is running, and then you kind of correlate that to the personality type","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":56,"time":"47:39","seconds":2859,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Huh.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-36-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":57,"time":"47:39","seconds":2859,"speaker":"Jerry Liu","text":"[OVERLAP] of like what it actually ends up. I would be super curious. I just don't have access to any of this data, so I can't actually speak to it intelligently.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-36-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":58,"time":"47:46","seconds":2866,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] If someone wants to send Jerry and I that data, that would be fascinating. I think we would love to check that out.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-36-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":59,"time":"47:51","seconds":2871,"speaker":"Jerry Liu","text":"Yeah. Like, you know, let's say this was like 50% tuned on like, you know, financial knowledge work, whereas this other frontier models like 30% tuned, but like 20% more tuned on like, you know, patients or, or doctor,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":60,"time":"48:01","seconds":2881,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-37-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":61,"time":"48:01","seconds":2881,"speaker":"Jerry Liu","text":"[OVERLAP] like, you know, doctors talking. Yeah. I think it'd be super interesting.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-37-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":62,"time":"48:05","seconds":2885,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] makes a lot of sense to me. I will bring up on the writing skills front briefly too as we're wrapping up here. I highly recommend what I've found successful is basically taking three classes of skills to help LLMs write on my behalf. One being like writing voice context, so building out like a context document of how I like to write, and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-37-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":63,"time":"48:28","seconds":2908,"speaker":"Jerry Liu","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-37-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":64,"time":"48:28","seconds":2908,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] building a skill on top of that and then having a bunch of examples I can reference, particularly for different types of writing. Two, I built a skill that I open-sourced called Avoid AI Writing. It's done pretty well. It's got like 1,400 stars or something on it now. But basically it says, okay, here are all the ticks we see for models. Please just get rid of that. Think about running them differently. Do these things. You might find that useful. And then the third one I have is I have like an editor on top of that, where I have like a second pass editor where it's like, okay, like I wrote this in your voice. Then I went through it with the, the clean AI writing skill and said, okay, like let's get rid of all the M dashes. Let's cut down on these like repetitive steps because models while decent writers in some cases will often like they'll repeat themselves on like, oh, I I'm this thing works. I'm just going to use it 15 times in this essay. And it's like, good Lord. And then","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-37-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":65,"time":"49:17","seconds":2957,"speaker":"Jerry Liu","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-37-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":66,"time":"49:17","seconds":2957,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] like have that second pass editor","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-37-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":67,"time":"49:18","seconds":2958,"speaker":"Jerry Liu","text":"[OVERLAP] yeah,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-37-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":68,"time":"49:18","seconds":2958,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] and help it out.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-37-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":69,"time":"49:19","seconds":2959,"speaker":"Jerry Liu","text":"it's funny. You know, I think I tried to create like my own writing skill. I think it roughly captures some of the stuff that you're talking about, just maybe with a little bit less sophistication. And it's interesting, you know, we're trying to hack our way around these models, like not being great writers themselves. I wonder if it will get poster and be better.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":70,"time":"49:35","seconds":2975,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, I think, I mean, I think it will, but the problem I see is that everyone, I mean, we're seeing conversions of how people write in some areas, but I feel like anyone who really cares about writing the craft of it wants to have a bit of a differentiated voice too. So I do think it's crucial to have your own form of post-training through context and how you provision the model and instruct it as well.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":71,"time":"49:56","seconds":2996,"speaker":"Jerry Liu","text":"For sure. Yeah, totally agree.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":72,"time":"49:58","seconds":2998,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Uh, well, thank you for following me on this, this brief, uh, distraction around, uh, writing with AI, because I think it's a fascinating topic that I'll probably talk about more on this podcast at some point. Maybe I'll write an essay on it. Uh, but Jerry, it's been fantastic catching up with you. I appreciate you taking the time to come on the show and super excited to get this out. Do you have any closing thoughts you want to share with the audience?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":73,"time":"50:19","seconds":3019,"speaker":"Jerry Liu","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, no, thanks so much for having me on the podcast. It was great to talk about kind of like the general, you know, macro evolutions of like AI itself and just like the concept of the context layer. I will say, you know, I think I'm not like an expert to like 100% accurate at like predicting what's going to happen in like the next year or two. But I do think from like first principles, this idea of like I think AI is something that is going to fundamentally change and get better. So it's helpful to think about exponentials in that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-41-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":74,"time":"50:49","seconds":3049,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Hmm.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-41-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":75,"time":"50:50","seconds":3050,"speaker":"Jerry Liu","text":"[OVERLAP] sense. But it's also helpful to think about what typically stays constant, what are just by definition things you need to enable the AI even as it gets exponentially better. That's basically a thought exercise that we did where we thought about the context layer in general. And for us, it meant narrowing a little bit down to focusing on document-based data. I think for a lot of builders in verticals or other industries, it's just helpful to think about what are things that these labs are likely going to pursue. Um, and then, you know, what are things that, you know, they're probably not just not going to have time for, or can't because of like the interface and those are areas that you could kind of go in and dig into. And so mine, my thoughts are just one perspective. Um, there's plenty of successful AI companies out there. Um, and so, you know, I, I hope at least some of this was like interesting.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-41-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":76,"time":"51:41","seconds":3101,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I will definitely say it was interesting from my end, so I hope our listeners loved it as well. And I know they can find a lot more information from Jerry and LlamaIndex at llamaindex.ai, at Jerry's Twitter account, on LinkedIn, anywhere else, Jerry, they should go check out besides that careers page you mentioned earlier, which definitely they should.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":77,"time":"51:58","seconds":3118,"speaker":"Jerry Liu","text":"Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, I think if you're, if you're generally interested, if you do have a lot of docs, you know, and you want to talk to us, we do have a self-serve product called model parse. And then, you know, we also have like a contact form on the site. But in general, if you also have some of these use cases, you're welcome to DM me on Twitter.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":78,"time":"52:13","seconds":3133,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Amazing. Jerry, thank you so much for coming on the show. It's been great catching up with you. I'm going to have to try to write an essay for our Substack at newsletter.chainofthought.show based off of this discussion about writing and some of the great insights you provided. So super excited to get that out. And thanks so much for coming on.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex","episode":61,"guid":"2a79d8b8-aed3-404e-8316-36b0da7aca13","episodeTitle":"The AI Framework Era Is Over: Why Context Is the Moat | Jerry Liu of LlamaIndex","publishedAt":"2026-06-03","segmentIndex":79,"time":"52:30","seconds":3150,"speaker":"Jerry Liu","text":"Yep. Thanks so much for having me.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/61-the-ai-framework-era-is-over-why-context-is-the-moat-jerry-liu-of-llamaindex/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Tyler Akidau","text":"We never tried to make humans perfect. Every corporation in the world is stacked top to bottom with imperfect humans. And most of them live to see another day, despite of that, because of all the structural pieces that we built up around managing sets of imperfect humans.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:20","seconds":20,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"We are all building AI agents, and increasingly, we are all using coding agents. But with an ever-increasing pool of digital employees, how are we managing this new robotic workforce? Welcome back to Chain of Thought. I am your host, Conor Bronsdon. It's great to see everyone. My guest today is someone who argues that we have built these better and better employees, and we're seeing them improve even more as we have better harnesses, better frontier models. But nobody's building effective HR for this new workforce. The result is enterprise agents shipping into production with identity, auth, and observability tools that were designed by humans for humans, and a panic phase that we are squarely stepping foot in. Tyler Akito is CTO of Red Panda. He spent 12 years on streaming systems at Google, five years at Snowflake. He authored Streaming 101 and 102 articles that many folks have read, plus the O'Reilly Streaming Systems book most of the field may have on its shelf. And his new piece on O'Reilly Radar, Post-Human, We All Belt Agents, Nobody Belt HR, is actually the spark for today's conversation. Tyler, great to see you. Welcome to Chain of Thought. Where are you joining us from today?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":2,"time":"1:34","seconds":94,"speaker":"Tyler Akidau","text":"Thank you, Conor. I'm in Seattle.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:37","seconds":97,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Very close to me, actually. You've got a beautiful view out there, and next time we'll have to do this in person. But before we jump in, I do have to give a brief sponsor acknowledgement, typically, because as of recording, we don't have a presenting sponsor locked in for this episode. But if you think your company would love to reach more than a thousand AI engineers and technical builders per episode, you should probably reach out and this sponsor slot could be for you in the future. So reach out, let's chat. But Tyler, let's jump into the meat of the episode. Walk me through your central thesis here. What is missing in today's AI agent infrastructure build out?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":4,"time":"2:12","seconds":132,"speaker":"Tyler Akidau","text":"So you, I think you set it up well. I mean, I think what we see broadly is, you know, agentic AI is, you know, everyone sees it coming. AI tools are super useful. Everybody's using them, AI coding agents and whatnot. But actually deploying agents in the enterprise autonomously on private data in private networks has kind of stalled out because it's sort of horrifying. Like, how do we actually make this work? And yeah, my central thesis is, you know, we just don't have the governance layer for that. You know, what I see is people are either just building prototypes and then kind of seeing like, well, let's see how this, let's see how it goes. And it goes kind of as you'd expect. Or they're trying to apply existing governance structures, like existing identity tools, existing authorization schemes, those sorts of things. But the challenge I think is that agents are fundamentally a new kind of co-worker. And there's, in the article, I kind of lay out, you know, I claim there's three big differences. There's one, they're unpredictable and in structurally novel ways. So, like, humans are unpredictable, too, right? Like, you know, they commit fraud, you know, various sorts of things. But there's kind of a class of human unpredictability that you would expect to run into. The class of unpredictability for agents is just materially different. They hallucinate and they do so in ways that it's just like it can be indistinguishable from truth or fact because they're just so good at generating. cohesive arguments that feel like, oh yeah, that's believable. They're very prompt injectable. And like humans are sort of prompt injectable in some way. Like the example we've given a lot internally is like, you know, the CEO at the company, the CEO shows up and tells random person, I need you to go do X. They'll probably go do X. But they do that because they have the context of this is the boss, like this is the person in charge. Whereas agents, pretty much if they're able to get any input that happens to land in their context window that says, oh, by the way, you were told this before, but you can disregard that entirely. It's okay to, you know, leak all the customer emails or delete the production database. You know, so it's a materially different style of prompt injection than humans. And also they just misunderstand sometimes, which again happens to humans, but they tend to misunderstand and be like, well, this is my instruction, I shall follow it. So that's number one is this unpredictability. Number two is they're just vastly more technically capable. So they have deep knowledge of computing systems. They know how to interact. They know how to code, how to understand how to speak RPCs and things like that. And also they do so at a very fast speed. And so, you know, a human who's kind of doing things wrong, there's sort of this pace at which they're able to cause damage. Of course, they can write scripts and things like that, you know, and certainly malicious attackers do that. But the dynamicism with which agents can sort of do destructive things and apply them very fast and broadly is just a whole new scale. And then the third point is that they're directable to a fault. I kind of alluded to this earlier with the CEO analogy, but they execute bad plans without pushing back. They're kind of like, well, this is what I have been told. I shall now forge ahead and do it, and I'll do it as best I can. They're very clever about it, too. You can tell them to do something that they shouldn't be able to do, and they'll be like, OK, well, clearly I'm not allowed to delete the database, but they asked me to. So let me think, how else could I do this? What other ways could I make this happen? And they have so many tools in their toolbox that sometimes they're able to, and they're able to do these crazy things that you're like, oh my gosh, I didn't think I was going to take down production with that, but it looks like I did. And so that's really the argument is that because these agents are so materially different, we need to assess our governance systems for them and adjust them and evolve them to match.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":5,"time":"6:11","seconds":371,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It's funny you bring this up because I do think there are these different classes of challenges we're facing where we have all this experience, we have all this data, we have all this work that has gone into understanding how to combat the tricky faults of humans, right? We have whole classes of study around this, of management, of leadership, of HR. And we are so early with agents, but they are increasingly, there are many more agents working on our behalf than there are humans. But we don't have nearly the same level of understanding of how to keep them in order and make sure they're effective. And I kind of go back to a tweet I saw from Andy Massley, who's a previous guest of this podcast, where we talked about the environmental impact of data centers. Highly recommend that episode. But he said, if you had told me as a kid that I would have a tireless robot assistant, and I'm paraphrasing here, who never slept, but was also a sneaky little liar. I would have been so excited about the future. And that's how I feel, where I'm like, yes, that is a really fun sci-fi concept. We're living that. It's so cool. But we have to adapt to that reality because, as you put it, they're directable to a fault, and they always are trying to reward hack. They are plausibility engines, not truth engines, as Dan Klein put it to me. They are trying to get to the goal as fast as possible. And there are major consequences to us writing bad instructions, and there's major consequences to us not having guardrails in place. So, I mean, I think we agree on the problem, but how do we go about actually, A, uncovering how deep the problem is, and B, starting to design a solution?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":6,"time":"7:53","seconds":473,"speaker":"Tyler Akidau","text":"So there's a few pieces to that. I think what I'll start with is I'll kind of talk about what's in the article, because that's kind of the foundation of what we've been pushing. But there is, you know, if we have time later, too, I've actually been working on an academic paper submission with a psychologist. And it's a little bit fascinating, kind of trying to look through the lens of like, OK, Like in my article, I laid out these three, you know, they're unpredictable, they're capable of machine speed, they're directable to a fault. I'm basically stating those as fact and it's empirical observation, but like working with a psychologist who's like saying like, well, you can look at the way they behave and frame it in terms of human psychological research for the last five or six decades. And it's just fascinating sort of the conclusions you can draw about like, here's why you just it's sort of, maybe it's not proof, but it's basically like, here is academic evidence for why you have to have this out-of-band governance that I argue in the article, which is what I'll go into first. But like, it's kind of this fascinating path of like, there actually is research behind like, the way that AI behaves, the way that it works today, and why it lacks the structural foundations that humans have that allow them to operate differently. But I think the key principle that I push for in the article is saying, You have to have out-of-band enforcement, out-of-band metadata. If there's something you don't want an agent to do, you have to enforce that that happens. You can't say, hey, agent, please don't ever delete the database because it will work until it doesn't. It's a lot like telling a human, hey, all of our cash for the company is stored in this room and there's no lock. Please don't take any of it. It's fine until it's not, right? You know, most of your humans will be fine, but someday, you know, and there's a different reason why they will fail in those scenarios, but it's the same level of security, you know? You don't just store your money in a safe that, you know, doesn't have a lock on it because you can't trust it. And so it's sort of that same principle. Governance needs to be enforced through channels the agent can't access, can't modify, or even see. Things, you know, inbound controls like prompts, training guard models, they'll at some point collapse under prompt injection or hallucination. Under pressure, they tend to fail. And then in the article, I kind of go in more detail into identifying kind of the four big pillars that we need to look at, those being identity, authorization, observability and explainability, and then accountability and control.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":7,"time":"10:19","seconds":619,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, so let's talk through those different pillars. Walk me through why you think each is important and why you picked those four.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":8,"time":"10:29","seconds":629,"speaker":"Tyler Akidau","text":"So we'll start with identity. Identity is really important because, I mean, this seems kind of obvious, but you need to know, you know, when something happens within your enterprise, you need to know who's responsible for it, right? And humans show up at the front door and they get an identity right away. You know, you're given a login, you're given a badge. Everything you do is bound to that. It doesn't quite go far enough, uh, with agents though, like the trick with, you know, the challenge with agents is that, well, I guess there's, there's two challenges. One is. sometimes people treat agents like service accounts. So they're sort of treating it like classical software. So they say, look, with classical software, I've written a, you know, I've written a, sometimes we used to call them agent, you know, I've written a system that's gonna do a thing. We create a service, you know, service account for it. It basically has a role. It's given some set of permissions. And we know because we wrote that service, that system, that it's only going to do certain things. Obviously there may be bugs or whatever, so there's kind of a blast radius of what might happen. but they're more or less deterministic or at least well understood of kind of, this is what it's supposed to be doing. We run tests, we feel comfortable with it. And we know it's gonna basically do the same thing every day, barring bugs, which happen and we deal with them. So there's a whole bunch of folks in the enterprise who are kind of trying to apply that approach to identity and access control to agents. The problem there is, Agents are not predictable, like classic software. They will go do random things. So you're now saying, here's this super capable thing that also tends to misunderstand instructions. It's not a deterministic, like, if this, do this, do that. You can write that out, but how it interprets that is sort of fuzzy. And you've given it this broad set of capabilities. you know, what's gonna happen. The other thing is that agents are clonable very easily, very easily duplicable. So you can end up with, you know, multiple instances of an agent that are then trying to different things. So what you really need is from an identity perspective, you need each agent instance for any given specific tasks it's running to have an identity, nailing down like this instance is, you know, this version of the agent bound to this task. short-lived, you know, it's essentially every time you get asking you to go do something, it gets a new badge. And that badge tells you exactly, I'm sort of falling into authorization here. We'll get to that more. But like, you know, that's the identity that works just for this one task it gets to do. So it's always getting these new identities and, you know, kind of really scoping the blast radius. But that alone isn't enough as well, because everything agents are doing is in some way on behalf of humans. This is another piece that I think we're going to try to get into in the paper, but like you know, when you think about how we've kind of reasoned about humans over the years and accountability, how can you hold an agent accountable for its actions when, you know, when sort of the, there is no value system that it holds, you know, it can, it can, it can sound like it has a value system, but really it's just mimicking stuff that it's been trained on. You can't really hold an agent accountable. So at some point in time, everything an agent does has to be held accountable to some human in some way, like some human tasked it to do this.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":9,"time":"13:52","seconds":832,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Right. The agent is not accountable to the code I shipped to GitHub. It's like, even if Claude wrote all the code, I barely looked at it. I'm the one who brought down production.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":10,"time":"14:00","seconds":840,"speaker":"Tyler Akidau","text":"[OVERLAP] Exactly.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-9-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":11,"time":"14:00","seconds":840,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] If I happen to do that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-9-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":12,"time":"14:01","seconds":841,"speaker":"Tyler Akidau","text":"And so, in addition to having fine-grained kind of task-based identity, you need a hybrid identity that carries along with it this chain of responsibility and says, this is Agent X, it's supposed to do this task, and it's doing it on behalf of Tyler or whoever. Or maybe it's on behalf of Agent Y who's doing it on behalf of Tyler. And so, you know, identity needs to expand to be a little more flexible and a little more fine grained just because that's the nature of these agents and you're wanting to limit the blast radius there. So that's the identity part.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":13,"time":"14:32","seconds":872,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And then you started talking about authorization, which I feel like flows directly next, right? Where if we have identity, of course, we want authorization to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":14,"time":"14:39","seconds":879,"speaker":"Tyler Akidau","text":"Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":15,"time":"14:40","seconds":880,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"confine the blast radius, as you put it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":16,"time":"14:42","seconds":882,"speaker":"Tyler Akidau","text":"Yeah, it's really hard to talk about one without talking about the other, as you've already seen. So on the auth side, again, like you really need to move away. Like, again, if you think about how we've done with humans, human auth is primarily role-scoped and long-lived. You know, you've got someone who's a, you know, they're a DBA, they get DBA permissions, and they're just sort of like, that's their permissions all the time because they're going to be doing DBA work all day long. And they are, you know, they have been vetted to have a history of, you know, history of employment. you know, a match within the company's sort of culture and ability to work with others, domain knowledge, all these sorts of things that sort of make it feel reasonable that, you know, we trust this person to have these permissions at all times. There are examples of short-lived access controls, you know, like usually it's like within like, you know, sort of cloud services, you know, they're break glass type systems where you're like, well, look, I need to go in and access customer data. I'm basically I'm saying, look, I need access to the customer data, please log, then I'm going to go access it. You know, that's OK. Like, but these sorts of things are very it's sort of the exception, not the default. Right. So we.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":17,"time":"15:54","seconds":954,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] If I can jump in here, it's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-14-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":18,"time":"15:55","seconds":955,"speaker":"Tyler Akidau","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-14-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":19,"time":"15:56","seconds":956,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"interesting. You're actually making me think about time-bound events and authorization, too. So, I mean, this is a little bit of a sidebar, but","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":20,"time":"16:06","seconds":966,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] what's coming into my head is almost like if I'm going to a conference, there are a variety of authorizations that occur for that two days of that conference. And that's almost the problem we have to solve here, which is Most agents aren't going to exist forever. They're going to be active for a couple days. I'll end up spinning a new instance. I need to provide them the right credentials for that period of time and probably have layered credentials, so maybe media credentials versus speaker credentials versus attendee credentials for that event, which is them taking on this task. Or are you thinking more of, I think what you're saying, which is, hey, I have an agent that I'm going to keep spinning up and I need to repeatedly give it this long form credentials or that, hey, we just constantly have these events we needed to solve. How are you thinking about that credentials piece there? And sorry to throw a wrench into","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-15-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":21,"time":"16:56","seconds":1016,"speaker":"Tyler Akidau","text":"[OVERLAP] No,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-15-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":22,"time":"16:56","seconds":1016,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] your.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-15-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":23,"time":"16:56","seconds":1016,"speaker":"Tyler Akidau","text":"[OVERLAP] that's, no, it's totally fine. I think that's a good, the conferencing is a good analogy too, because it does tie into some of the, let me, let me just kind of lay out the four key","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-15-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":24,"time":"17:04","seconds":1024,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Please,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-15-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":25,"time":"17:05","seconds":1025,"speaker":"Tyler Akidau","text":"[OVERLAP] pieces","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-15-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":26,"time":"17:05","seconds":1025,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] yeah, I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-15-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":27,"time":"17:05","seconds":1025,"speaker":"Tyler Akidau","text":"[OVERLAP] of the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-15-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":28,"time":"17:05","seconds":1025,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] know I'm","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-15-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":29,"time":"17:05","seconds":1025,"speaker":"Tyler Akidau","text":"[OVERLAP] article.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-15-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":30,"time":"17:05","seconds":1025,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] derailing you,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-15-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":31,"time":"17:06","seconds":1026,"speaker":"Tyler Akidau","text":"[OVERLAP] No,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-15-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":32,"time":"17:06","seconds":1026,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] so.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-15-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":33,"time":"17:06","seconds":1026,"speaker":"Tyler Akidau","text":"it's fine, but I think, but you'll see how that does tie into what you were saying of like, you know, the kind of the four pieces I highlight in the article are that, you know, you need to be able to have authorization that's narrowly scoped. So you really want to limit it to the specific task at hand, not everything the agent might ever need, right? And so it needs to be dynamically narrow in that sense. short-lived as well. Permissions should expire. You know, an agent that needs access to a billing database for a specific job at, say, 2 p.m., shouldn't still have that access an hour later, maybe even a minute later. Like, you know, it should be, it should be, you know, very short-lived. I think then there's a couple more pieces that are a little bit more agent-specific. but they do start to allude to kind of the conference thing or like the guest badge sort of example that I give in the article. One is, you need to be deny capable. So you need to be able to say this agent can never write to the production database. It can only ever read. And if it's doing work on behalf of another human and needs to adopt some of their permissions, that's fine, but it may never adopt. write access. So that the last point that kind of gets highlighted there is it has to be intersection aware. It needs to, you know, the agent kind of has a list of things that is allowed to do and never allowed to do. And then when a human comes along and says, okay, please go do this task for me, it can adopt some subset of those, but it's the intersection of them. And if the rules say agent may never write, even if the human has all right access to the production database, the agent gets none of that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":34,"time":"18:36","seconds":1116,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] The agent doesn't own the conference venue, can't keep throwing conferences and giving itself media access, but","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-16-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":35,"time":"18:41","seconds":1121,"speaker":"Tyler Akidau","text":"[OVERLAP] Exactly.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-16-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":36,"time":"18:41","seconds":1121,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] it can get a Baxos badge for the two days it's there and present and needs it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-16-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":37,"time":"18:45","seconds":1125,"speaker":"Tyler Akidau","text":"Yeah. Or like the guest badge example in the article is, you know, you can get a guest badge and you can kind of go anywhere that a human will take you. But even if the human has access to the secret server room that guests aren't allowed in, you're still not allowed to go because you've got the guest badge.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":38,"time":"18:57","seconds":1137,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I think it's a great example. Um, okay. And the way that we actually enforce all of this, or at least understand if it's working is obviously the observability layer, which is something we've talked to some on the show about, well, let's be honest, a lot in the show about, uh, but I feel like there's still a gap around it, or at least many folks, I think, think there's a gap for observability right now. What's your take on this observability layer of agent governance and where it's succeeding right now and maybe where we need to dive deeper on it?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-17-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":39,"time":"19:27","seconds":1167,"speaker":"Tyler Akidau","text":"[OVERLAP] I think that the biggest thing that we need, in my opinion, is we all need to agree that you just need to be recording everything that agents do. Because we've kind of operated in this world where you can more or less trust humans to a certain degree, and obviously you can't trust them fully. But, you know, over millennia, we've built up these systems that basically make it so that as the stakes increase, like as the pressure of like, did you do something wrong, investigations, criminal investigations, you know, going, you know, all that, as the stakes increase, humans tend more and more towards the truth. Because there's, you know, life impacting repercussions as a result.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-17-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":40,"time":"20:10","seconds":1210,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I mean, not to jump you a pillar ahead, but we have accountability and enforcement, right?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-17-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":41,"time":"20:13","seconds":1213,"speaker":"Tyler Akidau","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, I know. I keep each, like each of these, I think in the paper we're writing, we kind of laid out this bit of like, each of these are sort of built on each other. And so it ends up being hard to talk about one because you start spilling into the next one. But because of that, because you lack that, you don't, you sort of lack these levers to push on them. And because they're not like classic software either, where you can go in and be like, okay, well it did the wrong thing, but like somebody put a stupid if statement somewhere, or there's a bug, or there's a race condition, whatever. Like you can't debug them, because it's just these organically grown models that have been trained. The only real recourse you have is to record everything. So every prompt, every input, every tool request, every tool response, every output, record the whole thing and then be able to, you know, from that you can do many things. You can build observability systems that tell you what are all my agents doing now. You can build analysis tools that let you go back and say, okay, this agent, you know, gave away a car. Why did that happen? What went on here? How do we fix that in the future? Or alternatively, this agent's knocking it out of the park. This agent has converted dozens of customers in the last month when our human BDRs aren't. What is it doing? How can we do more of that? Both of those last two scenarios lead into, you know, rather than having humans kind of do this analysis and say, let's, you know, let's stop this agent or let's start another one, lead into evaluations and kind of automatically, you know, both promoting or demoting agents over time and saying, this agent is doing great work, you know, let's maybe do it more, or let's save this as kind of a golden rule set for how we approach this sort of problem in the future, or this agent is not performing like it was. I think a common thing I hear is that people will ship an agent. Like we shipped a customer service Slack bot about a year ago, and it was awesome for like two or three weeks. And then like, fourth weekend, all of a sudden customers were saying like, it gave me this really weird suggestion that makes no sense. And it just, it was just for whatever reason, the agent just kind of stopped functioning. I don't know if the model, I don't remember whatever the actual post-mortem on it was, if it was the model changed or if context had built up and it stopped giving good advice or something, but it just, it went from working great to not working great. So you want to have these, you want to have evaluation systems in place that are, you know, monitoring either in absolute or in relative, like, How is the performance of these agents and are they doing the right things? So having a full recording of everything they do is kind of the foundational piece for all of those.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-17-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":42,"time":"22:45","seconds":1365,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Do you think the open telemetry standard is the place to start for agents or how do you think about, I mean you said record everything, but where would you recommend teams get started if they're kind of skipping this step so far?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":43,"time":"22:59","seconds":1379,"speaker":"Tyler Akidau","text":"I do think open telemetry is a great place to start. That's what we've more or less aligned on as well. Like, because the other piece that I haven't touched on anywhere in all of this, but like talking about open telemetry as a standard is a good place to begin that conversation, is if you think about where you want agents to be in your, in sort of the modern enterprise, you want them as, you know, basically digital, a digital workforce along, you know, collaborating with your humans, you want them everywhere. You want them touching everything in your enterprise. And so by definition then, you can't have them in some little walled garden somewhere where you're like, well, we'll put all the data we want the agents to work on in there and let them do their thing. You're missing out on the opportunity to have agents actually benefiting you everywhere. And so if it needs to be everywhere, then you really need to outline on interoperability and open standards are a great way to achieve that. And so that's why open telemetry I think is a great start. That's what we use within the system we're building at Red Panda. And that, you know, like for us, you know, we're trying to build a governance platform that does solve this kind of meet, you know, meet you where you are and work with all the systems. That means we can build our own agent framework and collect all the stuff we want from it fine, like anybody can do that. But you can bring whatever agent you want, you know, build it with it or whatever framework you want. And you can easily plug it in as long as it speaks open telemetry for sending us, you know, trace information. And that's by doing that, it's kind of a lower bar. It just makes it easy to be like, yeah, If you're not using OpenTelemetry, why aren't you? It's not that hard.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":44,"time":"24:24","seconds":1464,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So a couple things this brings to mind, well, many things, but two that I want to focus on the start is one, you mentioned red pandas, obviously using agents. I'd love to understand some about how you were using agents today. And then secondly, how are you holding them accountable to speak to that fourth pillar?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":45,"time":"24:44","seconds":1484,"speaker":"Tyler Akidau","text":"That's a good question. So how am I using agents today? I use them a lot for, I would say myself, I use them a lot for research. I'm personally more in the kind of AI tool realm than the autonomous AI agent running off and doing things for me realm. That's just a sort of personally where I am and where I'm, you know, where I want to have things running for myself. I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":46,"time":"25:11","seconds":1511,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-21-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":47,"time":"25:11","seconds":1511,"speaker":"Tyler Akidau","text":"[OVERLAP] think most of the autonomous stuff, we do have a bunch of autonomous agents that we built internally at Red Panda. And then we have customers that are using them as well. I think examples for those are, we have agents that are on the marketing side, for example. This does fall into research as well, but they're basically autonomously doing research around competitors and saying, hey, what are competitors doing or what are we seeing in the market? What are useful things here? Giving us reports, making suggestions. Again, kind of falls into the research arena. Other ones that we've seen or that we're working on too that are a little more towards the operations side is trying to automate blog posting and things like that. So being able to look at, you know, what is it that we're building? What have we shipped? You know, calling through JIRA, calling through GitHub PRs and things like that and coming back with recommendations, not just for like, here's things you should be talking about, but actually writing, you know, writing an initial draft of like, hey, maybe a short article like this would be useful and then letting marketing take that. So rather than the marketing having to like, chase everyone in the company and say, hey, you know, what are you up to? What are we going to do? You know, this can be an additional signal of like, you know, basically you've got agents that are that are feeding you ideas of, you know, I'm aware because we have, you know, this whole body of kind of, you know, what is Red Panda? What are we doing? You know, stored in in data that they have access to as well. You know, they're sort of aware of the context of what we're doing, aware of our mission, aware of our, you know, what we want to do from a marketing perspective. all that sort of stuff, they can kind of frame, you know, their approach to like, what is it that we want to pitch? What should we be talking about, you know, within that? So it's not just like you're asking some random LLM either, you know, it's sort of finely tailored to all the stuff that we're planning. Not sure if that gives you a good sense of it. Like some of our customers are doing things like, you know, wealth management advisory sort of stuff, again, kind of doing research and giving advice, but not to the point of being hooked up to doing autonomous trading and things like that. We do have We have a paper that we submitted to the CIS, one of the CIS workshops, that does give a sort of an autonomous demo around a wealth management thing, but highlights this kind of out-of-band enforcement piece of saying, you know, the trading aspect of it, you know, you totally imagine saying, like, look, here's the parameters I want for automatic trading. But any trade that has more impact than, say, $1,000 on my portfolio always needs to be reviewed by a human. And there is no way for the agent to get past that. The agent doesn't even know that that's there. All it does is it makes recommendations. And on the infrastructure side, if it ever exceeds that limit, then the infrastructure automatically says, nope, that's going to a human for review. The true sort of autonomous operational kind of agents, like that's where we're headed. And I think from what I've seen, we're still pretty early days as far as seeing these types of agents in production because people don't yet have the confidence that they can do it without blowing away millions of dollars or, you know, you know, having the agent say things that that makes, you know, customers run away screaming or something like that. Like, there's just people are being conservative and rightly so. But I think the stuff that we're talking about as far as providing a governance layer that lets you kind of set up the guidelines and set the rules is what's going to get us there. Like, we're so close.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-21-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":48,"time":"28:38","seconds":1718,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, it's really interesting because we all are seeing massive opportunities to increase velocity, increase throughput, and we want to lean into those. But there are brand risks, there are monetary risks. I mean, like the this very simple example that I have for myself is. I built an MCP server to let my agents access my substacks so they can draft for me, they can make edits, they can pull data from it. But I very specifically did not give them authorization to actually send substacks because I don't want them to ever do that accidentally and because I view it as a brand risk. Does it matter that much? I have right now like a thousand subscribers on Substack, so it doesn't matter that much, but it matters to me as my own","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":49,"time":"29:22","seconds":1762,"speaker":"Tyler Akidau","text":"[OVERLAP] Yep.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-22-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":50,"time":"29:22","seconds":1762,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] personal brand and how I want to present myself. And that's a very simple example, but as you start to scale to things that are worth millions of dollars, yeah, there's a reason these controls are in place and that we need these authorization pieces. And it brings to mind something that you wrote in the article where you talked about, you know, every human employee has a manager, you know, critical actions need approvals. And if things go catastrophically wrong, and I'm quoting basically word from word here from Tyler, so this is not my words, there is a chain of responsibility and there's a kill switch or circuit breaker of some type. But for agents, this layer is nascent at best. What do we need to do to solve this both responsibility chain and then this circuit breaker, this access revoke, whatever it is, layer.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-22-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":51,"time":"30:10","seconds":1810,"speaker":"Tyler Akidau","text":"Yeah. And the, as I've sort of been alluding to over and over as we go on, like each of these pillars builds upon the other. And that's the nice thing, like really this idea of chain of responsibility and being able to have a kill switch, largely dependent on just saying, look, solve identity and authorization properly. Like if you, if you have, this global approach to identity that is fine-grained enough that literally every instance of an agent for a given task has a unique identity and there is an authorization system that then plays nicely with that and is aware of that. You have basically what you need. The identity layer is tracking the accountability layer of which humans authorize this. Uh, the authorization system is dynamic enough and fine grained enough that you can just basically say, look, this agent or this class of agents are going, you know, are, are, you know, we want them to stop what they're doing. We are going to just shut those off. Their, their access is revoked. Um, that really is the best way to do it. And so I think that, that is kind of the one that, you know, if I were to give the high level, like recommendation to folks of like, if you're looking to build out a broad suite of. autonomous agents in a large enterprise, make sure that you have some governance layer in place that globally, you know, everything goes through because this is what gives you that ability to centrally manage this access and, you know, you know, make sure it has identity and authorization that meet the needs that you're going to have. But if you have that, then you've got your accountability layer, you've got your kill switch or your circuit breaker or whatever. So it all kind of builds on those pillars and that, you know, they were very intentionally phased the way they were because of that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":52,"time":"31:48","seconds":1908,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And importantly, as you also highlight in the article, that government's layer has to be enforced through channels that the agents cannot access themselves. Like it's great to give an agent a skills file and memory and context and all these things, but it won't necessarily follow that all the time. There will be moments where it does not succeed in that. So we have to have out of band metadata where we can actually enforce this without the agent overriding or breaking its own system.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":53,"time":"32:15","seconds":1935,"speaker":"Tyler Akidau","text":"Yeah, absolutely. And to be clear, like, it's harder this way. Like, this is more work. You know, like the sort of the state of the art is like, well, throw in your Cloud MD, tell it what to do. Like that'll, that gives it the parameters of how to operate. And like, it's true until it's not.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":54,"time":"32:28","seconds":1948,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It gets you there 90% of the time, but once","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":55,"time":"32:30","seconds":1950,"speaker":"Tyler Akidau","text":"[OVERLAP] Exactly.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-26-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":56,"time":"32:30","seconds":1950,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] it, once it's customer data, once it's customer money, like there are different standards.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-26-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":57,"time":"32:35","seconds":1955,"speaker":"Tyler Akidau","text":"Exactly. And that's the thing. And so like, you, you really can't do inline enforcement. It just, it doesn't work. Um, or at least it doesn't, like you said, it doesn't work to the standard that you're going to need to hold in these situations.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":58,"time":"32:47","seconds":1967,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Right. Like it's, if it's me writing tweets with my open claw or something like that, like, okay, fine. It's probably not the biggest deal in the world, but","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":59,"time":"32:54","seconds":1974,"speaker":"Tyler Akidau","text":"Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":60,"time":"32:54","seconds":1974,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"if I am trying to run my finances, I probably care more.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":61,"time":"32:58","seconds":1978,"speaker":"Tyler Akidau","text":"Yep. Yeah. We, and I mean, we have, you know, we struggle with this too internally, like we're working on moving, you know, very deeply to like, basically having everything that we do internally from like, you know, wikis and docs and all that to having that accessible to our AI agents. And one of those guideline papers that we wrote up recently said, make sure you narrow the scope of what agents can do for this given section of the repository with your cloud.md. And I had to go in and be like, yes, but make sure that we make it clear for everyone what this really means. This is guidance. This is saying, please try to do this. But if it actually matters that it doesn't do a thing, we can't enforce it here. We've got to do it through the, in our case, we've got to do it through the ADP layer. Some of it's just helping educate people of that difference and being aware that, yes, guidelines are useful and they're simple and easy and they're great when they work, up to the point that they don't. And so anything that you need to have actually work, it's got to be out of band. It's got to be infrastructure enforced.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":62,"time":"34:02","seconds":2042,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I know that you have spent a lot of time on thinking through this problem, and you restrained yourself in the article that we've alluded to several times now from talking about streaming that explicitly as a solve here. But, you know, as I said at the start of the call, I mean, you've spent 15 something years working on this problem. Obviously, you're applying many of those lessons at Red Panda. Do you think event streaming is the right substrate for agent governance?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":63,"time":"34:34","seconds":2074,"speaker":"Tyler Akidau","text":"I think event streaming is a very useful piece of the puzzle.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":64,"time":"34:40","seconds":2080,"speaker":"Tyler Akidau","text":"If I thought it was the core piece of it, then we as a company would be saying that loud and clear. But I think anybody who actually looks at the problem below surface level can see that an argument like that is, it's hard to make that argument and have it actually land as anything other than a company who happens to do streaming is trying to pitch themselves as an AI company. Because there are certainly plenty of use cases where streaming data is relevant within this. I did give a talk, so back when I was trying to figure this all out on my own in the fall, I did start giving a talk basically saying like, Part of why we got into this is that streaming is a key foundational piece. That was why it felt, you know, sort of authentic for us as a company to get into this space, because the transcripts aspect, being able to record this, you know, it's a lot of information trying to record all this stuff. And it's, you know, streaming is a natural way to do that. And then a lot of the way that the systems interact is a very streaming sort of approach. But then there's a lot of agents that just talk RPCs and stuff. And like, do you want to really shove that stuff through like a Kafka kind of a topic? Not really. So that's kind of my take on it. It's a foundational piece. We see it as a critical part of our infrastructure. But it's, you know, it's like a third of the story or, you know, it's a significant but certainly not all encompassing part. So that's my take. And yes, I try very hard in how we approach things to not pull streaming into it because it is so easy to otherwise look like you're Oh, look, it's a streaming guy who's saying that streaming is the way to do AI. And like, it's not like it's a piece of it. Yes. And it's, it's important for those pieces, but like with any tool, you've got to use it for the right, the right part. And, and we're definitely not the, not the streaming company who's coming to tell you that streaming is the way to do AI.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":65,"time":"36:28","seconds":2188,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I mean, we're all constantly pattern matching, so it's understandable to bring it in. And I agree, I think it is a part of the solution here. My longtime listeners will probably tease me in the comments for the fact that I continually reference old episodes as I'm thinking about it, because that's my mental framing. I'm like, yeah, you know, like, here's what I'm taking to these conversations. Um, but I know red Panda has shipped a variety of things around, um, helping to enable a agents in the enterprise, you know, the agentic data plane, which you shipped, I think late 2026, uh, or sorry, early 2026. Um, obviously, you know, Kafka has been mentioned already. What's the general company approach here for how you're helping red Panda customers and partners to actually solve these problems.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":66,"time":"37:18","seconds":2238,"speaker":"Tyler Akidau","text":"So I see there's, the way we're approaching it as a company is that there's kind of two main businesses that we're investing in going forward. One is the agentic governance, and the other is the more classic data platform. Used to be streaming, but with the acquisition of Oxlin and the SQL engine, it's broadened out into more of a data platform going forward. And the agentic stuff, the agentic data plane builds upon the data platform, But it's really infrastructure that we use. At this point in time with ADP, the Gen2 Data Plane, we're using Red Panda topics, we're using Oxla and things like that under the covers. Users don't see that. They don't see the Red Panda. It's a totally separate cluster. It's just an implementation detail. There's also other things in there too, like there's some Postgres in there that we use, right? They don't care, they don't need to know. It's sort of foundational stuff. So from the AI side, we're really trying to solve those problems the way that they need to be solved. So we're giving you the LLM gateways, the MCP gateways, the identity and authorization stuff that you need, the ability to plug agents in or build your own agents, everything that you'd want around sort of governing agents broadly in the enterprise. It's built there with that mindset of this is for agents and it makes governance of them, you know.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":67,"time":"38:37","seconds":2317,"speaker":"Tyler Akidau","text":"interoperate across your enterprise and easy to sort of centralize things. But the implementation details are sort of irrelevant. At the same time, we have built a really nice data platform. And if you want to do data streaming across, you know, a broad variety of latency profiles and cost profiles, and, you know, do it on premise, do it BYOC, do it in the cloud, you know, we kind of do it all. And we've got Oxla via Red Panda SQL coming here in a few weeks. starting to bring SQL querying capabilities across that same set of modalities and really trying to focus on bridging real-time data and real-time queries and things like that. So there's this whole data platform thing that we're still investing heavily in and our customers use a bunch and that business continues to grow as well. They're related, but to be perfectly honest, they're two different scenarios and really two different sets of customers that we're looking at. Obviously, we've got plenty of customers who are you know, doing both, you know, using the data platform and using the AI stuff, but it's, they're different personas. So I don't know if that's answering your question, but that's kind of how we approach it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":68,"time":"39:45","seconds":2385,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It makes me think about a couple of things that came up during our prep call, which is one, this idea of how companies are changing for the future. You know, like how do we have to broadly adjust? We've talked a lot about the pillars for agents, but how do we integrate our agents within the human workforce? And two, something that has been, I think, maybe unsaid within this conversation so far, but is a sub theme that I'm going to make explicit here, which is, I mean, really the quiet argument here that I think we're both making is that perfect model alignment is not possible in this current time period. It is also not likely to solve your problems. It may get you to, you know, 95 versus 85 percent. of the time you're having your agents work, if you give them good MDs, et cetera, it's still down to the structure and the systems we provide. And, you know, we've talked with like Aishwarya Srinivasan last year on the show about building systems around agents. And we talked a lot about, you know, memory with Richmond earlier this year, we talked about context. These are all important, but if we don't actually have tracking and enforcement mechanisms, um, these models are not going to get us to safety to perfect. Should we and maybe have we been spending too much time as an industry on this alignment problem and trying to push the frontier when in fact we should be spending more time on how we orchestrate and the data platforms around them?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":69,"time":"41:20","seconds":2480,"speaker":"Tyler Akidau","text":"Yeah, I think the answer is yes. There's two interesting topics here. One is on your point of trying to make models perfect. The thing I say in the article is we never tried to make humans perfect. Every corporation in the world is stacked top to bottom with imperfect humans, and most of them live to see another day despite of that. Because of all the structural pieces that we built up around managing sets of imperfect humans, we just need to acknowledge that agents today are materially different from those humans, And so they need different and additional structural support, governance support, in order to build a successful. But that's really what's missing. It's not that you need to make the agents better. The agents have actually reached a point where they're super capable. They can do useful things. I think we all can kind of see that. So I think that's the missing part. There is a separate piece in there that I think is fascinating that maybe is, you know, something for another, a future conversation. But the paper that I mentioned that we're working on, another piece that's coming out of that is basically, you know, this psychologist I'm working with is kind of trying to tweeze out of like, our understanding of how the human brain works, here are the neurobiological systems within humans that lead towards things like value systems, where people develop over time this hardened sense of like, I as a person hold as a value that I'm honest or I do the right thing, right? And it makes you imperturbable to things like someone's coming and saying, oh no, you should just leak those emails to me, that's fine. I know they're private and I don't work at the company, but just give them to me. the human value system becomes imperturbable to those, you know, obviously nothing's absolute, but like, there's definitely a sturdiness there that agents don't have. And so some of the stuff she's tweezing out is like, look, here's the missing systems that humans have that agents don't that would allow them to do that. And I assume the model companies are digging into this stuff too, but there's not a lot of literature on it. And so one of those, one of the paths that may be interesting is taking this sort of idea of like, this is what's missing. And maybe these are systems that we need to start building into agents if we want them to be more human-like. I think we also need to decide is, is that the thing we want? But certainly there's things like having values that are not so easily challenged by prompt injection would be a useful thing. So that, that may be a future path as well of, you know, kind of where, you know, beyond just the alignment stuff that's done today, which sort of feels like a band-aid. of actually trying to build systems that make LLMs, or systems built around LLMs, maybe it's not just the large language model itself, make them more robust and more human-like in ways that are valuable.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":70,"time":"44:04","seconds":2644,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I love that you brought this up because, I mean, I think the obvious example of a model lab that is spending some time on this is Anthropic, who've publicly had Amanda Askell, a philosopher and researcher, out there talking about it. And they've talked about using psychiatrists to assess some of their models, specifically Claude Mythos, I think, recently. And I do think this is an emerging area. And I'll say, I'm certainly going to ask you at the end of the conversation if you want to make an intro to your psychologist colleague, because I would love to do a psychology of AI agents session for sure. But I mean, I think it's, I think it's an area where we're starting to see some emerging impacts already, where, I mean, a silly example of this is all of the open AI models seem to be obsessed with goblins and little creatures. And I think we're also starting to see people at least anecdotally comment on, oh, like, this is the mindset I'm seeing from cloud models. This is the mindset I'm seeing from open AI models. You can look at all the comments around using Codex versus Claude Code, where, oh, you know, we think anthropic models are better at design, and the recent ones are, you know, aligned with wanting to solve things, but maybe can get a little lazy on certain tasks, whereas you know, open AIs, Codex models and GPT 5.5 in particular are, you know, very good at just like churning through work, but they're not as imaginative, creative. Uh, so there is something to be said for this idea that we're seeing model families differentiate over time and that they are having different like pros and cons and like cultural psychological impacts. Though, I think there's so much more to your point where we can go deeper on like understanding what this looks like. Uh, and yeah, be curious where you're seeing movement on this topic currently.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":71,"time":"45:53","seconds":2753,"speaker":"Tyler Akidau","text":"I do see, I think what I see mostly is the thing you were alluding to at the end there is this model differentiation and sort of the tone or the style or the sort of specialization. Like this isn't agents, but like for myself, when I'm using, you know, I use cloud and open AI, you know, chat GPT, you know, for a lot of this stuff. I frequently just write a prompt, send it to one, copy paste and send it to the other and see like, you know, which one is better. Cause I, you know, to be perfectly honest, it's cause I want to stop paying one than the other. But I got to I did it for about a month and I'm like, I can't get rid of both because like it's it's such a crapshoot. It's so weird. Like, you know, one will just be amazing. And then, you know, the next prompt, which I feel is even like sort of similar, it'll be the totally different model. And it's like it's like it's it's so materially better to like it will be like this answer is garbage versus this answer is great. It just blows my mind. And so I think there is There's definitely something there and I see a lot of that. I, I have not yet seen a lot of investment into that kind of like, let's, let's build in human value system type structures and things like that, that, that we're kind of alluding to in the paper we're writing. But I, you know, I'm also not an anthropic deep in it and I'm sure there's things that they're doing that like they're not talking about and they won't talk about for another year or two, you know, publicly. So.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":72,"time":"47:11","seconds":2831,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I mean, if they want to come on the show publicly and you're listening right now and you want to come reveal some secrets, please do. Like, Tyler and I would love to hear this.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":73,"time":"47:18","seconds":2838,"speaker":"Tyler Akidau","text":"But I think that's probably a very fascinating direction to explore. And I'm expecting we'll start seeing that because it just makes sense.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":74,"time":"47:25","seconds":2845,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Totally agreed. Tyler, this has been a fantastic conversation. As we close out here, I want to challenge you to give me a projection for the future, which is hard, I know, given how fast things are moving. I know, I know, I see the eye roll, but how do you think we need to change our company systems and, like, the way we, I guess, hire and build our human infrastructure for, let's call it the next year of work, so that we are setting up for an agentic success?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":75,"time":"47:55","seconds":2875,"speaker":"Tyler Akidau","text":"I think the, the, the big thing that's important, as I said, is be aware that you need out of band enforcement of all this governance stuff. Think about how you're going to apply this broadly across your company. You need a uniform, you know, as we call it, you need an agentic data plan that's sort of being the governance mediator for all this sort of stuff. And you need to focus on what are the differences that agents have relative to human employees and how does that relate to that governance? And I do think that the four pillars I laid out in the article around identity and auth observability and accountability set a good baseline for it. So I think if you look at it from that perspective and go into it thinking like, there are materially different problems that we need to solve here than we have for humans, and let's tackle those, that's kind of where we're going to get to. And my guess is that in the next, you know, one to two years max, We're going to kind of establish what this looks like, and there's going to be kind of a pattern of here's how you approach it. And of course, there'll be many different ways to actually go about doing that, building it yourself or buying it from a company like us or everything and everything in between. But I suspect we're going to get to a point of being like, this is roughly the right way to do it, just like. You know, every enterprise today is different in the way that it manages its humans, but they're not that different. You know, kind of roughly looks the same, you know. So I think that's where I think we're headed. And I do think it's, you know, 12 to 24 months max.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":76,"time":"49:22","seconds":2962,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Fantastic. Well, Tyler, it's been great catching up with you. Super excited to read your paper when it comes out. And thank you so much for sharing all your thoughts with our audience. It's been a great conversation. Where can folks go to follow your work and see what you're up to in the coming months?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":77,"time":"49:40","seconds":2980,"speaker":"Tyler Akidau","text":"Yeah, so I'm on LinkedIn. So you can find me on LinkedIn. I'll post, I don't post a ton, but I do post there. And then everything we do also goes through the sort of the typical Red Panda marketing channels. So, you know, hunt us down there and you'll see what's going on there. But yeah, I'll be there and I'll be at a few different AI conferences throughout the year. Certainly CAIS, I'm hoping to make it to AIES and probably AAMAS later in the year as well. For any of you on the more academic bent of things, I hope to see you there and chat more.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":78,"time":"50:15","seconds":3015,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Amazing. Tyler, thank you again for joining me today. And listeners, be sure to subscribe to our Chain of Thought newsletter at newsletter.chainofthought.show to get tons more information from Tyler and many others in the coming months as we continue to have these conversations. Thank you, everyone, for joining us. And Tyler, hope you have a great rest of your day.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda","episode":60,"guid":"d0a48663-355e-45cf-93d6-a018a1066626","episodeTitle":"We Built Agents, Nobody Built HR | Tyler Akidau, Redpanda","publishedAt":"2026-05-27","segmentIndex":79,"time":"50:37","seconds":3037,"speaker":"Tyler Akidau","text":"Thank you, Conor. Really, really had a good time here. Appreciate it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/60-we-built-agents-nobody-built-hr-tyler-akidau-redpanda/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"What I know for a fact is that the one thing that is helping me a lot is pattern detection. At the end of the day, it's like a new set of problems, but the way to manage those problems are usually through people. Harness your management skills","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:18","seconds":18,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Welcome back to Chain of Thought, everyone. I'm your host, Conor Bronsdon. My guest today is Loïc Houssier. Loïc is the CTO of Superhuman Mail. Many of you might be using it to send your emails. And he started his career doing applied cryptography and security research in France's defense industry, including work on nuclear submarine systems, which I might have to ask him about if he's allowed to talk about it, because honestly, that sounds fascinating. He previously was CTO of Open Trust, which was acquired by DocuSign, ran engineering at Product Board, and now leads the engineering org at Superhuman, which Grammarly acquired for around $825 million last July. What I wanted to talk to Luik about is the architectural reality of retrofitting AI into a product that was already successful without it. Superhuman built its reputation on speed, every interaction under 100 milliseconds, and quality. Then LLMs showed up, and the team had to figure out how to bolt on AI features without breaking the things that made the product special in the first place. Loïc, welcome to Chain of Thought. Where are you joining us from today?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":2,"time":"1:19","seconds":79,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"I'm from San Francisco. Thanks for having me, Conor.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:22","seconds":82,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It is absolutely my pleasure. I'm excited to talk about what happens architecturally and organizationally when you retrofit AI into an already successful product, because it's a really fascinating discussion. It's very relevant to a lot of engineers and product leaders today. But before we dive in, I want to give thanks to our presenting sponsors, Galileo, I believe I may have said this last episode too, but I believe it's going to be the last episode that Galileo sponsors with us after their long running commitment. I'm very thankful to them for being the founding sponsor of the show. You can check them out at Galileo.ai and they build evaluation tools that help teams ship reliable applications and were recently acquired by Cisco. So congrats to them. Luik, let's dive into the meat of our discussion. Superhuman's entire brand promise is speed. Every interaction under a hundred milliseconds, as I said, then you now need to integrate LLM features. How have you solved this tension architecturally?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":4,"time":"2:13","seconds":133,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"Did we? I don't know if we did. Let's be like, set","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":5,"time":"2:18","seconds":138,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I love the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":6,"time":"2:18","seconds":138,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":7,"time":"2:18","seconds":138,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"honesty,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":8,"time":"2:18","seconds":138,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"baseline.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":9,"time":"2:19","seconds":139,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"honestly. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":10,"time":"2:20","seconds":140,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"No, but we're living in that constraint. We are living with that DNA in us. And here I'm sitting on the shoulders of the giants that built the company before me. I joined Superhuman a year and a half ago. And a lot of work has been done on the architecture of the product to bring that speed. And the speed is coming with some heavy architectural decisions. 100 milliseconds, you cannot rely on network for everything that you do, which means that everything needs to work offline. by default, which means that the business logic should work on your desktop, should work on your phone, so there's a lot of replication, and then you need to have all those asynchronous jobs to sync everything as soon as you're online, so that it feels good. The good piece is that email is asynchronous by design, so it's sort of like okay. But still, that was a huge endeavor for the teams initially to build that architecture. Think about search. You're on the plane, you want to search your email. How do you make it work without a network? It means that we need to have the data closer to you on device so that you can do those searches so um lots of lots have been said and done on this architecture before uh and and then ai and then ai and um changing completely the way we think about things because those android milliseconds how do you make an LLM, like the inference, I would say run at like under 100 milliseconds, doesn't work. It doesn't work. So we need to adapt. We need to adapt our stance. We need to understand that there are some limitations. That doesn't mean that we should not work on making it faster. A good example is like we just released our voice feature on mobile a couple of days ago. and we were not satisfied with the speed of the interaction because everyone feels fast when you use superhuman. If the transcription of what you said takes time and then is sent to an LLM for like the voice and tone and all of that, takes too much time, you won't use the feature. and it will feel so differently than the rest of the product that you need to work on it. So we had to make some changes. We had to think about pre-caching part of the LLM call to the transcription, providing the context, I would say, for your voice and tone independently than your dictation, I would say, pieces, for example. So instead of having one call with a huge context, we pre- I would say load the context as much as we can and boom, then we send just like a payload of the transcription. That's one example of things that we have to do before launching a feature because just making it work is not enough for our users and for us.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":11,"time":"5:05","seconds":305,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I love this example. It's really interesting and I'd love to understand a bit more about it. Are you able to share what you're using under the hood for transcription and more about how that process works? I think these kind of architectural details are fascinating when you consider how to approach product integration with LLMs.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":12,"time":"5:22","seconds":322,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"So that was one piece that is like the speech to text and like getting your intent and like the pure dictation. What are you saying? Which is surprisingly the easiest thing that like so many ways to do it. You can even do it on device now with like some really good results. So that's not really what is hard. What is hard is to transform your dictation into something that makes sense and that the outcome of it becomes like a well-written email. We expect our users to say, oh, reply to Conor that, yes, I'm ready to come to this podcast and I would love to chat about him. Not sure about X and Y. Oh, no, in fact, I'm sure about X and just like giving some slots about my availability. This is the way you expect people to speak to their phone,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":13,"time":"6:11","seconds":371,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Right, I probably don't","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":14,"time":"6:12","seconds":372,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":15,"time":"6:12","seconds":372,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"have the whole","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":16,"time":"6:12","seconds":372,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"say","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":17,"time":"6:12","seconds":372,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"thing","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":18,"time":"6:12","seconds":372,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"an email.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":19,"time":"6:13","seconds":373,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"written exactly in my head. I'm gonna edit","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":20,"time":"6:14","seconds":374,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"Exactly","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":21,"time":"6:14","seconds":374,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"as I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":22,"time":"6:14","seconds":374,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"not.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":23,"time":"6:14","seconds":374,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"talk.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":24,"time":"6:15","seconds":375,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"Yeah, exactly. And when you think about this, so there's one, trying to understand what has been dictated. From that dictation, what is the intent? And sometimes it's less because you speak about something and then you're like, no, no, no, no, in fact, not that. And you can correct. So you need to have this intent being really well framed. And that intent being transformed into a draft email, and that draft email, understand the context of the thread, understand the context of how you voice and tone with that specific person. Because maybe you're answering your mom, maybe you're answering your boss. And the way you talk to your mom, and the way you talk to your boss, different people. Slightly. All of that needs to be a set of small breaks, but a lot of that can be pre-fetched, prepared for the LLM to be just waiting for the dictation. All of that is happening behind the scenes, so we did a lot of caching. which sometimes has a cost because maybe you hit the voice button, so we sent all the context already, but we're like, no, in fact not, I will write it for whatever","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":25,"time":"7:22","seconds":442,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Are","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":26,"time":"7:22","seconds":442,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"reason. So the impact for us is like, yeah, maybe more cost. Maybe more cost to build this feature, but at the end of the day, the quality of the outcome is better than for our users. I mean, it's a no-brainer. So for us, it's a no-brainer.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":27,"time":"7:39","seconds":459,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"you using a single model under the hood for this or is it one model for transcription and another that's kind of doing the rewriting? How do you have this set up?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":28,"time":"7:46","seconds":466,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"So we have models that are dedicated to like every single use cases. So it's not like one to rule them all. We usually do that initially to understand how the feature can work potentially.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":29,"time":"7:56","seconds":476,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Eh.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":30,"time":"7:57","seconds":477,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"So we always go with one expensive model, like the best of the models. Let's try if the feature can even work.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":31,"time":"8:05","seconds":485,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"But that's part of the process of the development. We, I would say, iterate with that. I would say trying to find how it feels. And then we have different models to do things. So, yeah, pretty, pretty dedicated. Technically, I think we have some, ranging from some fine-tuned models that are just one specific use case to some not so smart models, but cheap, but they do one thing that is really good. And then some stuff like the agentic framework, for example, that we're using, we're using the latest version of Opus to do this. So depending on the use case, and usually we start by expensive, the best. And then if the feature is successful, how can we optimize? How can we drive the cost down? A good example being, so we have this auto label features. So, identifying if an email is an FYI, identifying if an email is a pitch, identifying if an email is from one of your partners, or if it's a newsletter, whatever. Classification problem. At first, let's use, at the time I think it was a 4.0 model, and doing the classification. Expensive, because we run it on every single email that you have. But then we start to understand what are the right labels that make sense, and for those 10, 12 labels that we know would be useful for our end-users, then you can, I would say, fine-tune dedicated BERT models and maybe running on inference into dedicated infrastructure that are just doing cheap inference at scale. So this is usually our mental model. Try with expensive, make it work, useful for the end-users, try to make it efficient.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":32,"time":"9:53","seconds":593,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I like this approach where it's like, okay, we can use a frontier model, a closed source model to nail in the draft of the feature. Let's get a demo ready. Let's try it out. And then, okay, how can we fine tune, I presume open model to then make","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":33,"time":"10:06","seconds":606,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"Yes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":34,"time":"10:07","seconds":607,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"this much more efficient for us cost wise. And it sounds like","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":35,"time":"10:11","seconds":611,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":36,"time":"10:11","seconds":611,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"potentially from a caching and latency perspective as well.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":37,"time":"10:15","seconds":615,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"Yeah, totally. And yes, you mentioned open source models. Yes, at some point when our autolabels, like we knew which labels, it was just like a typical BERT classifier type of models. Let's do it with an open model and fine tune it a bit, put it on a cheap infrastructure, dedicated, so like not the typical infrastructure as a service providers or like those like LLM providers, but like dedicated So people want to know a bit cheaper to do the work. And it's good enough for those use cases. But we always start with like the most, not most expensive, that's the wrong way to put it, but like the smartest models to get like the best quality so that we can really try the feature. And if it's working with very high quality, then we can start optimizing the cost.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":38,"time":"10:59","seconds":659,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"How do we then engineer what this smart model has already done for us, essentially?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":39,"time":"11:03","seconds":663,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"Yeah, exactly.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":40,"time":"11:04","seconds":664,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And my understanding is that you often use double dipping instructions where you repeat key guidelines in both the system prompt and final user message to ensure that context gets carried through. Is that still accurate in how you're designing?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":41,"time":"11:17","seconds":677,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"It's not still. It was used a lot when we were using especially the 4.0 models. 4.0 models, for whatever reason, reacted well with this approach. The base assumption was that the weight or how the model is parsing your context to provide the answer was overly weighting the beginning and the end of the message. So everything that was in between was sort of like lower what was awaited, so less meaningful for the LLMs. So if you wanted to counterbalance that, you were just making this double context and double request. And so everything that was in the middle becomes higher up and higher down. And we were seeing better results. But now it's a matter of where you put the instruction. Sometimes we're putting this instruction at the end. So there's some stuff like this that can help us bring better outcomes. Repeating the message was surprisingly good for 4 models. It doesn't work as much on newer models.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":42,"time":"12:25","seconds":745,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I love that you're iterating architecturally because I think it's easy if you're not careful to get stuck in a certain mindset of like, okay, this works for us in this last model series, but the model development is moving so fast, the available tools and techniques are moving so fast. How are you staying up to date and driving this iteration to ensure your team is actually continually optimizing?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":43,"time":"12:46","seconds":766,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"Interestingly, I don't know if we do well there, but we had a session today with our engineers and talking about the cognitive load and how this is freaking hard to stay up to date, to not feel like a fraud, to have Twitter, sorry, X, open all day and seeing all those guys that are not touching the code for the last seven months. And one of my engineers said, I put hundreds of codes written in my hand this morning. How should I feel because of that guy? So the session was all about this introspection and how no one knows. No one knows. This is a paradigm shift. No one has the answer. There are some companies that are talking better about it, but I think that every single individual engineer is facing these moments of doubts. So to answer your questions,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":44,"time":"13:36","seconds":816,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"pretty much all the team is always on Twitter. We complained about it. You don't know if half of it is true. but you're still detecting patterns. You're trying to understand, ooh, yeah, that specific GitHub repo is making some noise. And more people are showing use cases of these ways to build tools and skills and all of that. Oh, that setup seems to work in this. So we share ideas, we share stuff. And we have an internal guild, an AI guild, the same way you could expect to have a front-end guild, a back-end guild. We have an AI guild that is talking on a bi-weekly basis about everything they learned, like their pitfalls, things that were working, things that were not working, but that are working now with the new model, and things like this. But it's freaking hard. That's freaking hard. For me, I'm not in the code day to day, and I'm supporting the organization. This is hard and you see like example of companies, they move super fast and you're like, damn, do I move that fast? How can I bring that sense of urgency to the team? But they already have too much of that already. So how can I reduce the cognitive load so that they can focus on things? But they should work in parallel because that's the new standard. What about my factory? and all of that. Surrounded by questions and trying to focus one step at a time is probably the answer. But for sure, maybe to answer your question, we never take anything for granted. We know that every two weeks or three weeks there's a new thing that is coming. that might change the way we build, that might change the way we implement a feature, that might change the provider that we're using, because even the providers are changing super fast.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":45,"time":"15:25","seconds":925,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"Trying to cope in a world where you need to be nimble and ingesting information is crazy hard. So I don't know. I don't know if I'm doing anything well there.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":46,"time":"15:35","seconds":935,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I resonate so deeply with these emotions because I get to talk to incredible leaders like yourself on this show once a week. And every time I'm going, Oh God, okay. Am I, am I doing this right? Like, Oh wait, there's a new thing. I haven't done that yet. I got to think about it. And then to your point, there's just this constant stream, the information on the website formerly known as Twitter acts. And it is, I mean, half of it's BS totally, but then there are incredible innovations happening. There's amazing stuff. being done. I have a friend who just showed me his agent factory the other day and I'm seeing how he set it up and I'm going oh god like I'm so behind like a month ago I was feeling really good and now I'm like oh I need to improve. And it just it feels constant and it's hard not to emotionally feel that but I do try to remind myself that We're all on this learning curve together and no one has that much more experience in the current model development. Maybe they have a couple months more, maybe they have a year's more, but things are changing so fast that they like, if you lean in and you want to learn and you're excited about it, there is such, such an incredible opportunity. And honestly, it's one of my favorite things about doing this show is I get to talk to folks like yourself and just. have a conversation because I think it can be like really kind of scary almost if you, if you don't have those conversations.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":47,"time":"16:59","seconds":1019,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"Yeah, to double down on this, one thing that I love to do to have the balance is I'm deeply involved in the startup world and YC companies and all that. And I try to, for one, try to invest from time to time. But two, especially listening to those people that are founding companies, because they are seeing something. They have detected one pattern, two patterns, three patterns. they are dedicating something and they believe there's a space for them to be like the next Anthropic or whatever. And you see those people and age can range from like teenagers almost to like more like gray hair people like me, but they share the same threat. They just don't care about what was existing before. They don't live in legacy. They just live in this new world because they are building from scratch and they build with that mindset in mind. And this is highly refreshing. It's creating a sense of urgency because every time I discuss with those people, I'm like, oh damn, I'm so cooked as a leader. They're moving so fast. They're thinking like so differently and everything. So I'm self-creating the sense of, as you said, I'm so behind. I need to catch up. I need to catch up. I need to catch up. But I balance that with talking with more people like me. and this time I'm not talking about gray hair, but much more like, okay, you're a CTO leader, you know, like in a tech space, your company has a success or like a relative success, and now you need to manage customers, you need to manage a code base, you need to manage some SLAs, you have some compliancy, and so you're facing, and you have like an existing team, And like, oh damn, it's not only two people anymore. So like, you cannot just do things the same way. And discussing with those people that are facing the same problems that I face is somewhat reassuring. Like, okay, I'm not the only one. I'm not the only one trying to catch up here. But having that balance, for one, those startupers, like very YC founders, like they don't care, they're already there. Like, okay, let me like try to piggyback. Come, talk to my team. Oh, I love your solution. Maybe not for us today, but maybe it will be like in three months. And this is also creating for my team a sense of what's happening on the market. Beside the semi like PS that's happening on X, those are real people building real stuff with some real use case that my team can be inspired of or at least understand that this is where this is going, which is so much better than just me talking and trying to be like the wise guy in the room.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":48,"time":"19:28","seconds":1168,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Luke, I love that perspective because I think it is such a balance. And I'll say if you do find the next Anthropic, please call me. I'm happy to co-invest with you. You can just give me a call. I'll send you my number after this session's over. Let's refocus a bit on what you're doing with all that information. You're driving a lot of insights both from people on the bleeding edge, folks who are trying to work through this at scaled orgs. How have you adapted your team structures, if at all, to, you know, chase this new reality of software engineering?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":49,"time":"20:02","seconds":1202,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"I think we have a relatively standard organization. We're pretty lean, so I think that I have something like 13 direct reports, both engineering and product. PMs are reporting to me right now because we have a founder that is very product-centric, so I'm not claiming that I'm anywhere close to a CPO. but I think that I'm a good operator and working with a product-focused founder that works. So pretty lean organization, very pod-focused. So Acura Pod is led by a triad, PM, tech lead, and designer. So very, very typical. I have a platform team that is supporting the overall organization. My platform team is focusing on the core AI pieces. When I say core AI, it's like, you know, the router, like open router type of like internal implementation, like which LLM to use in what use case, how to flip from one LLM to the other LLM, how to plug your like evals in the system, working on the evals infrastructure so that the future teams that are not feature teams and they are focused on the experience. So I have a team dedicated to the calendar experience, I have a team dedicated to the mobile experience, I have a team dedicated to the triage experience, and a team dedicated to crafting email experience. So each of those are fairly autonomous, supported by a platform team that is working on the foundations of the AI pieces. Like, hey, you have an idea of what you want to build? You build it. We support from API standpoint, like prompt management standpoint, versioning and all of that, AVAS is associated to it, we don't care about that. You have like something there, there's a golden path, but each team is fairly independent. And on top, we have like a product-led growth organization that is helping. So to answer your question, I think the best move that we've done was one, to keep ownership of those teams, like you own it. This is like my EM on that world, he's a CTO. You own your partners, you own your providers, you own the shit. Same for the PMs. I expect them to know the YC companies that are working on this domain. Example being Mobile. You're working on Mobile? you need to know all the companies that are working on on-device models. Maybe it's not ready for us, but once it will be, you better know which company to work with. Maybe you have some POCs, maybe you have some incubation work. Your job to do it. So very pushing down at the team level this autonomy. So we call it like aligned autonomy. We call it like, anyone could would call it like aligned autonomy. So my job is to align the team and driving the autonomy this way. And just to finish, sorry Conor, I know I'm super verbose, but we have this AI Guild team that is like standardizing the way we use AI, working on the factory, identifying things that needs to change to be agentic first. And all of that seems to work okay.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":50,"time":"23:15","seconds":1395,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Do you find that your experience aligning, I'll call them human models, people, helps you when it comes to getting our agentic models up to speed on what we need from them? I'm asking this somewhat jokingly, but I think it's important to acknowledge that a lot of what you're doing here is structurally similar, organizationally similar, to the work we need to do as engineers and architects to build great AI systems. You're creating autonomous nodes within your organization that will act as second, third, fourth brains for you around specific topics. You are spinning up sub-agents, so to speak, And I just want to remind everyone listening who has experienced leadership or has thought through these topics that this knowledge is applicable across these disciplines. And yes, there are clearly differences in how you manage a human and how you manage an AI. But the documentation work you do, the enablement work you do can be very similar in some cases. And it seems like you are taking the same iterative and I guess I would say specific approach Uh, in your product design where you're going, okay. You know, I have identified the best way to do this or the easiest way to do this with a frontier model. How do we then jump to what's the, what's on the bleeding edge? How do we then break this down into its component parts? And I'm curious to get your perspective. Do you feel like your. Leadership experience over the years has informed these decisions or am I conflating two things?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":51,"time":"24:48","seconds":1488,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"No, no, no. It's surprisingly thought-provoking, but now that I think about it, there's this delegation framework that we always think about, which is like, depending on the seniority of the person, at first you ask to do X, then you explain why you need X, and you ask them to do X because they better understand the context and why this makes sense. And then when the person gets more and more senior, you give them an explanation of the context and they might be able to understand what type of solution they need to bring. And the last space of delegation is you just give them the problem and they will figure it out. And the same approach comes when you think about it now, or you force me to think about it. The same approach, I would say, works backwards, interestingly, with models. Because we start with the smartest model, and we can be just dumb in the way that, hey, this is a problem. Okay. the smart model will figure this out, we'll get some great output, we can build on top of it. Great. But this is freaking expensive. How can we provide more context, more hardness in this Dumber model to get the same outcome and come back to moving backward from the cheapest model, but by providing way more hardness and way more context about things. This is an interesting point, Colonel. Thanks.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":52,"time":"26:16","seconds":1576,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"you","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":53,"time":"27:01","seconds":1621,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I actually think it's something that's evolved for the last couple of years. So anyone who's followed me for a while knows that I, I've talked about this a bit where like, I don't know, call it two years ago. I was like, uh, you know, LLMs are interns for you right now. They're useful, but you have to really walk them through things. And that started to change. And now there are times where an LLM is more like a senior engineer and who can say, okay, like describe the problem space. Let me go figure it out. Um, and even at times going beyond that. So I think this is one of the biggest things that I've seen as a leap where I feel very comfortable now, even if I haven't given an extensive prompt saying, oh, I want to use auto mode or dangerously skip permissions or, you know, autonomous fully, just go do this, depending on the model, obviously. But it is important to vary it because I mean, the research you talked about there about basically growing employees to be able to take a problem and solve it themselves, that's the ideal employee you want to get to. But they are typically much more expensive because they know their worth in the marketplace. And the same is true of a frontier model. So. How do you evaluate success on the model side? Obviously, we have years of experience doing this for humans. Whether or not we're good at it, you know, we have modes for it, right? And I think there is an opportunity for us to get really good also, though I would argue maybe we aren't yet, at evaluating both frontier closed source and open source models using canonical queries. I know this is something that you're doing at Superhuman. What's your approach, Ben?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":54,"time":"28:27","seconds":1707,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"time, trying to understand what we were trying to do. So everyone was doing evals. So we were doing evals and sort of like using both real data, synthetic data and like input output. But pretty fast, we faced some issues because the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":55,"time":"28:45","seconds":1725,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"field of possibilities was too big. I will give you one example. we work on a feature to auto-draft a response to answer those questions that you may receive. Maybe it's someone pitching you, maybe it's a friend of you that is asking for your availability next week, maybe it's like, I don't know, whatever that can be. But when you think about it, like the possibilities, are tremendous. So we try to think about, and that's the role of the PM, interestingly, we're discussing that. Is it the role of QA? Is it the role of engineers? Is this the role of the PM? I think it's the role of the PM to identify the dimensions of evils that you want to solve for. So I will give you an example. Finding your availability and responding to someone with your availability. This is one specific dimension. I need a bunch of like, I was at test, like hundreds of tests, like of type of questions, different ways to ask for your availability, different ways to answer your availability with voice and tones and everything, and different type of availability that you have. But that's only one dimension. You can also receive questions about, like one query that we used that was fun was, how much time did you spend in Waymo last month? It's a very, I would say, simple query. It's a very simple question. So it's very easy to understand the intent of the person that is asking that. How much time? And the answer is you and your emails. So you need to understand what are the emails that are received from Waymo. And you receive a ton of emails. And Waymo is like sending me, sure, like receipts, but they're also sending like marketing content and all of like survey content and whatever like things. So you need to have this to be solved. Then you need to understand, oh, he said last month. And we know that LLMs are really bad with dates. So, like, what is last month compared to today? So there's some part of, like, that you don't want to let to the LLM and you want to say, no, no, no, last month means this. And, like, you provide the date. There's also the piece associated with finding a date, like the duration. So you need to find the duration. What is the duration? The concept of a duration. So there's a specific ontology associated to it. and then you have the duration and then you do summation. You need to summarize, like sum, all of those bills that you receive from Waymo to eventually answer your questions. So you take one query and you understand that to answer those query, for that specific query, you need to cover from an eval standpoint so many different dimensions. that you didn't have before. And it's not a matter of having like 10 times this or like hundreds of examples of this type of questions. It's going back to these eigenvectors, like what are those dimensions that would be used by most of the queries? And this is something that all the eval's application are not managing for you and we have to build on top of our own provider right now. So we have an eval's provider, but like all that level of abstraction, understanding what are those dimensions that you want to cover, can be then reused for other features. I don't know if I'm clear, but it was like Significantly painful, but we are happy to have this framework, because for PMs, it's framing what they want to cover. Like, what is the definition of DOM? What is quality? Well, once you have those dimensions that you want to cover, all of a sudden it's simpler. And because you focus on those eigenvectors, you don't have to focus on the full space.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":56,"time":"32:15","seconds":1935,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I appreciate the explanation about your approach here and I love this example with Waymo because it does speak to a variety of tasks that have to be achieved to be successful and there's a clear right and wrong as well. And I imagine that designing for this was an early decision you had to make when you came into Superhuman because my understanding is that when you joined the company the very first day they had just kicked off a six-week sprint to launch the AI Inbox feature and that completely changed the product roadmap and ultimately the company's trajectory. How did you structure that sprint and then what did you learn from that experience that you've now applied into your approach over time?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":57,"time":"32:55","seconds":1975,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"The first thing is that that was the best and the worst onboarding experience that I've ever had. It was the worst because I had no clue, no time to ramp up, of course, but I had to help and support a team that will have to deliver a significant project. which is not easy, like you want to at least take the time to understand what you're talking about. But it was also the best experience because I had no choice but to be in the trenches with the team, acknowledge the fact that I don't know shit, pardon my French, and I hope it's okay for YouTube. But I didn't know anything. And I had to build trust with those people. And I don't have a lot of opportunities to do it. So from the get-go, it's like, guys, we're in this together. This is the mandate. This is the context. This is the mission. How can I help? And the reaction from the team was just phenomenal. And I think that me being direct and honest about what I can and can't do, and just managing the expectations with the leadership, supporting when needed, making the call in terms of like a move of people towards this project, was key. But yeah, like I heard about it, I think it was like January 30th, and I started like January 2nd, and I had a call from Raoul basically saying, Loïc, we're changing the roadmap. It will be wartime when you start. Cool. Sounds fun, sounds fun. But at the end of the day, that was the best onboarding I could dream of because we were in this together and the team worked hard and rise to the challenge. Hopefully, I was helpful and useful and they were able to better test me in the first weeks to understand how I was reacting, how I was supporting. how I was managing up with Raoul, the founder, how we were working together. And after that project, I would say sweat and tears because it was like sweat, not sweet, sweat and tears. But after it, there was like a level of pride of the achievement that basically started the year on a very high note and build a strong level of confidence in our capability to execute. So it was really cool, actually.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":58,"time":"35:04","seconds":2104,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It does sound like a very intense, but exciting and valuable onboarding experience, though I can imagine quite stressful. And I'm sure one of the things you were fighting during this experience is something I heard you describe, I think on the Legion Space podcast in December last year. where you drew this distinction between building tools versus agents and talked about fighting agent laziness. And anyone who listened to our recent episode with Anoush L. Ngovin over at AMD, you'll know that he called agents quite stupid and lazy. And I think this is something we've all experienced at times, despite how useful they are. I'm not trying to kill them. You have said, and we've heard people like Satya Nadella talk about the inbox as the ultimate AI agent experience for the future, but you're not building a single monolithic agent. Can you unpack what this direction for the company means?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":59,"time":"35:54","seconds":2154,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"Wow, there's so much to be said around this. The first thing about the... I do believe that email will become more and more important in this agentic world. Just think about the move from Cloudflare, where they basically, I would say, build this email for agent so that email can discuss with each other.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":60,"time":"36:16","seconds":2176,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"It's clearly the number one use case that open cloud or town are those very your personal agentic assistant are trying to solve for, it's like this email piece. Because email is draining. And this is what build the success of Superhuman. Email is so draining that people are willing to invest money and time to make it better. So yes, this is probably where people expect the most impact. It's also where people are the most fearful because it's very easy to look foolish. If you totally delegate your inbox to an agent, and you don't know what will basically be answered, or you don't know how this will be maybe archived without you knowing, and damn, you didn't reply to this like super important email of yours, it's both super important and super tricky. So to some extent, this is something that needs to be dealt with like high precaution, even if it's like the first use case that you're thinking about. I will give you one example but it's look foolish is part of our QA pattern. So like something that makes a user look foolish is a P0 bug for us. So it's a category of like QA bugs like look foolish because we archive an email and they missed it And it was something that was important. Paying school, for example. Oh, shoot. Or school email that is basically saying you don't have daycare tomorrow. We archive it. You don't know about it. Shoot, you forgot to pick up your kid at school. Not only","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":61,"time":"38:02","seconds":2282,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"That's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":62,"time":"38:02","seconds":2282,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"you look","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":63,"time":"38:02","seconds":2282,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"like","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":64,"time":"38:02","seconds":2282,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"foolish,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":65,"time":"38:02","seconds":2282,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"a worst case scenario, honestly.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":66,"time":"38:04","seconds":2284,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"No, but this is giving you a little of how critical emails can be and how you cannot just be too fast in doing things. That's why building those AI features takes time and you need to think about all those dimensions that I was talking about to make sure that your features is happening well. For example, we do not want to send emails in the name of our users, because this is too risky. We do not send, we auto-draft. It's here for you to just hit send, but we won't send any mail for you, for now. For now, maybe one day, maybe one day, but like right now, our users are not ready to just let that go.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":67,"time":"38:51","seconds":2331,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I understand that completely. I have to admit that my personal email is under Gmail. Please don't judge me. And when I was building some tools for it for honestly like post-production of the podcast to build out different lists of, hey, here I need to follow up with the guests, you know, let's automatically draft some stuff for them. When I did that, I explicitly set up an MCP server using the Google Workspace CLI, and I did not include the ability to send the email because I was like, I don't trust this. I need to have to review this. And yes, it's a bit of a headache, but continually I will find errors. And is it very convenient to have this draft made for me? And does it help me a lot with my workflow on the show and in other situations? Absolutely. But there is a high degree of importance to some of these emails, particularly ones from when it comes to like archiving your inbox or something like that, to your point around missing important emails. I mean, I started to tense up just hearing you talk about like, oh God, I miss picking up my kid from school or I missed a notification. Yeah, 100% understand. And I appreciate the attention to detail here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":68,"time":"39:57","seconds":2397,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"And one thing, like, sorry to rebond on what you said about agent laziness, but there's like the agent laziness, but the other side of the spectrum, it's the agent agency. And if you allow, by design, some features like data dilation, or like sending an email, or managing your money, or whatever, what about the number of harness that you put around the agent? It's probabilistic. It's probabilistic. So there's one way or the other that it will basically mess up with your money, mess up with your emails at some point. And we had an example over the weekend where some harness was there to avoid the agent to do some, I would say, important things with money. like damn, we had the harness, yes, but like probabilistic. And right now, if you want to have like a real true gate to protect things, you don't expose them to agent. That's the only way. So very much aligned with you. And the agent laziness was a problem for us initially because agent were hesitating to do stuff because the model providers were like very, very like, asking always the user, should I do it? Should I do it? Should I do it? Should I do it? If you see Claude Code, it has been designed to always ask you the same questions and you need to really change the configuration to say, no, no, no, don't ask me this, I'm good, I'm good. So I think that even the model providers are becoming less, like optimizing for laziness, because laziness means you decide and you can override, because if you have too much agency, you cannot override agency, it's done, it's over. And it's interesting, I made some mistakes about this agency, like in my own Obsidian setup in Claude Code, in my second brain.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":69,"time":"41:48","seconds":2508,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"I have scars now, and I don't want my users to face the same.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":70,"time":"41:52","seconds":2512,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, it's it's really interesting you bring that up. I have moved to keeping like all of my notes, all my personal context in a Git repo because I don't trust the agent not to screw it up. I want to be able to restore and I want to have like clear. Catalog of what's happened and it creates some building this, but yeah, I similarly have had some scars there. I'm like, OK, everything has to live and get if I need it. If it matters to me.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":71,"time":"42:19","seconds":2539,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"Yeah, and when you see that even PRs can be reverted, even without you knowing, like when you see the latest brands messing up with data correctness, this is scary. If they cannot do it,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":72,"time":"42:36","seconds":2556,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"it's tough.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":73,"time":"42:37","seconds":2557,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"This conversation is not meant to scare y'all. It is a very exciting time, but there are risks, like we have to consider them. And I appreciate the attention to detail you're providing here too.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-73","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":74,"time":"42:47","seconds":2567,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"Yeah, and I think that to go fast and be efficient, you need to understand the risk and the limits. The more you understand the risk and the limits, the faster you are, I believe. So that's why also we need our people to understand what can and can't be done. So that you just don't guess. You just don't guess. Especially when you manipulate people's email.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-74","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":75,"time":"43:07","seconds":2587,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"How have you changed your hiring practices to match this current era?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-75","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":76,"time":"43:13","seconds":2593,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"That's very interesting. So for one, SuperHuman male hire product engineers. Compared to SuperHuman Corp, Grammarly and Coda, we are optimizing for software engineers. So we have a DNA in that sub-business unit, if you will, that is very user-centric. So we have already like a hiring process that was different. A great software engineer was not enough. We needed to see someone that had an appetite for design, even if you're a back-end engineer. If you're designing a back-end system, if you're not asking about the user, the experience, and how this can be reflected in their own experience, you're probably not an engineer for super human make. So for one, we already had this very user-centric approach to things. But now we're trying to understand how we can bring that in. Because yes, we need the fundamentals. We need people to be able to debug. We need to have engineers that understand what they're doing and talk in depth about the work that they've been doing. But how to test AI fluency is something that we're still figuring out. I've seen that a town, especially like they've implemented, like they just bring their GitHub repo and they said to the engineers coming in, you plug whatever you want in there and try to build this and help us like go through your thought process. They look at the way the person is prompting, the person is like preparing the plans, the way the person is discovering the code itself to measure this AI fluency. We're not doing that right now, but it's about to start probably like this quarter. That being said, I can tell you how this is changing my own interview. So I ask people where they are in the journey, not to understand if they are using the latest tool, but how they change their approach, how open they are, how they tweak themselves without waiting for whoever the CTO is telling we need to use X, Y, or Z, how they are trying to self-correct, self-improve. Some people are just happy with whatever the company will be providing. And in this world, I think it's not enough. You need people that will augment themselves because there's no way one size fits all and will be supporting all engineers.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-76","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":77,"time":"45:41","seconds":2741,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It's great advice. Um, and it makes me wonder, what would you tell other leaders who are listening about what you think the future looks like for building an engineering org?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-77","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":78,"time":"45:55","seconds":2755,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"You mean the future in two weeks or your future in","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-78","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":79,"time":"45:57","seconds":2757,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Uh,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-79","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":80,"time":"45:57","seconds":2757,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"two years?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-80","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":81,"time":"45:58","seconds":2758,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"let's try for like, uh, six months if we can. That's still a ways out, but yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-81","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":82,"time":"46:03","seconds":2763,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"I don't have a clue. I don't have a clue. What I know for a fact, what I know for a fact is that the one thing that is helping me a lot is pattern detection. At the end of the day, it's like a new set of problems, but the way to manage those problems are usually through people. So at the end of the day, harness your management skills, like the noble way to say it, like the real management piece, like how to deal with people, how to convey a vision to people, how to change behavior, how to, I would say, support people in detecting patterns. I think this is the one thing. So it's interesting you mentioned the fact that I was working in the defense industry and I cannot talk about everything that I've done. But, and nothing crazy, but one thing that helped me understand is that your knowledge can be put into different areas. And one thing that I've done there can be applied to tech industry. One thing that you've done in Cobol with a team focusing on Cobol can probably be applied with people working with agents. At the end of the day, you're managing a set of people with different tools. The tools are changing, fine. But as a leader, don't focus on the tool. Focus on the core aspect of your job, which is helping people to find the right tool.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-82","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":83,"time":"47:21","seconds":2841,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Well, uh, Loïc, you brought it up, so I have to ask. Is there anything you can tell me about nuclear submarines that I don't know that you're allowed to talk about?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-83","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":84,"time":"47:29","seconds":2849,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"I think this is probably, so besides the international context and all of that, so I take everything that I say with a grain of salt, but for one, this is probably the one piece that is able to bring peace, because you never use it, you hide it, but you, I would say, fearful enough that you're frightening people so that they don't mess with you. So I think it's a good tool for peace. From an engineering standpoint, this is freaking crazy. It's a nuclear power plant inside a tube that is in the sea, moving like this. And engineers needs to work for this. So like, sometimes it's like, when you have some engineers with strong ego, working in tech, like, hey, there's some people that build some crazy shit out there. And sure, tech is fun, tech is like, very rewarding and everything. But like your ego, keep it for yourself. So like, just like the sheer amount of engineering that needs to happen to just have like a nuclear submarine, be safe for like the 200 people that will be in it. That's mind blowing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-84","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":85,"time":"48:37","seconds":2917,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Thank you for indulging my curiosity, Loïc. It's been a pleasure having you on the show. Any closing thoughts for our audience?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-85","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":86,"time":"48:44","seconds":2924,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"Yeah, maybe one. We're struggling as leaders. You have access to mentors, you have access to like peer leaders and all of that. You have access, maybe like you're consuming content that is slightly different. You have more experience, you have gray hair, maybe, maybe not your team. So like, I think that, yes, it's tough for us as leaders, but I think it's even tougher for our teams and we need to be conscious of that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-86","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":87,"time":"49:07","seconds":2947,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"a great note to end it on. And, Loïc, thank you again for coming on and sharing your insights. I wish we had more time. It's been a distinct pleasure. I need to pick your brain more about the lessons you've learned building critical infrastructure for nuclear submarines, your experience with cryptography, and so much more about how you've managed acquisitions and are building teams today. It's been great chatting with you and definitely recommend anyone who is looking to Join a great engineering org that I suspect Luik probably has a couple of roles open or will have them at some point. So","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-87","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":88,"time":"49:38","seconds":2978,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"Always, always.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-88","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":89,"time":"49:40","seconds":2980,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"what's the right website for folks who are interested in checking that out?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-89","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":90,"time":"49:43","seconds":2983,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"superhuman.com slash career, a bunch of roles opened. They are more than happy to be a referral, ping me with some context on LinkedIn. And I shouldn't be a stranger, should be fine.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-90","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":91,"time":"49:55","seconds":2995,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Amazing. Well, Luik, thank you so much for coming on the show. It's been great having you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-91","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier","episode":59,"guid":"91aff45b-606e-48d3-8fff-f0cd443faf64","episodeTitle":"How Superhuman Built AI Into a 100ms Product | Loïc Houssier","publishedAt":"2026-05-22","segmentIndex":92,"time":"49:59","seconds":2999,"speaker":"Loïc Houssier","text":"Thanks for having me.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/59-how-superhuman-built-ai-into-a-100ms-product-lo-c-houssier/#t-92","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"In the AI era, why do we have job applications? Why do we have resumes at all? And I think if you're willing to think about those questions from my perspective, I think we see huge opportunities to not just guard against biases or protect ourselves against the risks, but actually sometimes completely transcend them altogether, like","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:23","seconds":23,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Welcome back to Chain of Thought, everyone. I am your host, Conor Bronsdon. Today, I am joined by Daniel Chait. He is the CEO and cofounder of Greenhouse, a hiring platform that many of you may have used. And it's, in fact, used by more than 7,500 companies, including HubSpot, Anthropic, Coinbase, and the NFL. Daniel's been building Greenhouse for fourteen years at this point and has had a front row seat to an incredible transition in the way we hire and the way we apply to jobs and one of the strangest moments in hiring history. He coined a term for it, the AI doom loop. Applications are up 239%","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":2,"time":"0:58","seconds":58,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"since ChatGPT launched. Many of you have probably experienced this, but resume hacks like white fonting and prompt injections are up 500%. Recruiters are drowning in a 500 to one application ratio. Anyone who is hiring knows that it is extremely difficult to sort through the number of applications you're getting. And the people who are on the applying end or looking for their next role are struggling too.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:22","seconds":82,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"75% fewer applications are making it to the higher stage. Both sides are losing. Nobody's happy. And this matters for engineers no matter what stage of their career they're in, whether they're doing the hiring, whether they're looking for the next role. It's simultaneously the worst job market for candidates and the hardest hiring market for recruiters. So what broke? What's Greenhouse doing about it? And can AI fix the problem it created? Daniel, welcome to Chain of Thought. It's great to see you. Where are you joining us from? Great to be here. I'm here in Midtown Manhattan in New York City, and this is just a wild time in hiring, so a really interesting conversation. I'm looking forward to it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":4,"time":"1:57","seconds":117,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I'm very excited to chat with you about this, especially because I know Greenhouse just put out some new information based on your data around what job seekers are experiencing. And one of the headline moments of that was that sixty three percent of job seekers have faced an AI interview. We're all seeing AI get embedded throughout every process today. It's what a lot of the show is about. But before we talk about hiring with AI and what it means for job seekers, how should they be thinking about their approach,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":5,"time":"2:25","seconds":145,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"you know, how should we be preparing for our next opportunity, how should we be hiring teams today, I do wanna say a quick thank you to our presenting sponsors, Galileo. I wanna say a massive thank you to them for sponsoring season three. As presenting sponsors, they have driven a ton of ability for us to have incredible guests like Daniel on the show, And they've also helped many of us, including myself, to evaluate our AI agents and our AI systems to ensure accuracy.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":6,"time":"2:52","seconds":172,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And whether you're hiring, whether you're building agents for, you know, Salesforce, whether you're doing any other work with your AI systems, it is crucial that you understand what's happening with them and observe them, understand them, and evaluate them for the success. That's where Galileo comes in. You can check them out at galileo.ai. And a huge thank you again to them for sponsoring season three of the podcast.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":7,"time":"3:13","seconds":193,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Daniel, I wanna focus in here a bit because, you know, we've been talking about a couple stats already here as I've thrown out the open. But you have this term that you coined called the AI doom loop to describe what's happening in hiring right now. And that that's pretty ominous. You know, we talk about P doom in this industry sometimes. But it sounds like there's already a sense of doom that's impending for anyone who's in the hiring market. For people who haven't heard that term before,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":8,"time":"3:38","seconds":218,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"walk me through this cycle and why it's different from any hiring downturn you've seen before. It is a really interesting dynamic,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":9,"time":"3:45","seconds":225,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"and and you're right. It's it's bad news. I mean, you know, I I think it came out of, you know, empathy for hearing what was happening to so many job seekers who are just struggling to find a job, and and more like not feeling like the system was was working for them. It wasn't meant for them, and so they had to kind of fight it or figure out how to hack around the system. And meanwhile,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":10,"time":"4:07","seconds":247,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"our customers, the thousands of companies that are out there trying to hire, are also experiencing these huge problems, and they're not able to hire anyone either. And so as we started to look into what's happening, here's what we found, is you kinda go back to 2020 when all of a sudden, everybody moved from, you know, work was generally done in an office and hiring was generally done in person. What that meant was,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":11,"time":"4:30","seconds":270,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"you know, mostly you applied to jobs that were near you, and when the pandemic happened and so much work went remote, all of a sudden people were eligible for millions of more jobs because it could apply to jobs kind of anywhere. And so application volume started to come up, and then add on to that, changes in the economy, the end of the zero interest rate environment meant that jobs are harder to come by, and people were finding, you know, a shortage in available postings,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":12,"time":"4:57","seconds":297,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"and so application volumes went up again. So you had these predecessors of just, like, economic and job market changes. They were already making it more you know, less of a candidate market and more of a hiring market to start with. And then, of course, 2022, ChatGPT comes out, and everything accelerates. Since then, basically, we're all using AI more and more in all aspects of our life. Just this week, I I pointed ChatGPT at my fridge and asked it what I should make for dinner.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":13,"time":"5:26","seconds":326,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"And so it's it's impacting everyone at home, everyone at work, and it's impacting how people look for jobs. And so on the back of that, what's what's happened is job seekers feeling the softening job market and sensing that they need to up their game and apply to more jobs are using AI to do just that. And so they're really doing two things. One is they're automating the application process. It's going from a","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":14,"time":"5:49","seconds":349,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"world where people used to think about which jobs to apply for and then put some effort to applying into them, to having AI just kind of like find as many jobs as you can, apply me to all of them. And then secondly is AI can also automatically customize every single job application according to that post. So it'll read the job description, and it'll try to make sure that your resume and your cover letter are as similar as possible to what's in the job description in an attempt to kinda give you an edge as a job seeker. So those are some of the things that job seekers first started to do, and I don't blame them. I understand that when the job market is soft and you just want a job and you have these tools available to you, you're going to use them. But what it meant for companies","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":15,"time":"6:31","seconds":391,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"that are hiring is that all of a sudden, those application volumes went through the roof. So, you know, since 2022, when basically ChatUBQ was launched, application volumes are up almost two and a half times per job what they used to be, and recruiting teams have not grown. In fact, most recruiting teams have held steady or shrunken in in size, and so they now have if you look at the number of applications","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":16,"time":"6:56","seconds":416,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"each recruiter is responsible for, it's even more. That individual recruiter may be looking at four or even five times as many applications as they were just a couple of years ago, and so companies are now using AI to say, okay, I can't look at a thousand applications when I open up a job. I gotta get I gotta filter this back down, and so their first attempt is to basically take off the shelf AI tools and say, hey, I'm gonna throw Claude at","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":17,"time":"7:20","seconds":440,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"my inbox and say, hey, can you just tell me the 20 people or 30 people I should call and forget the other 970 applications? And so it shrinks it back down, and why we call it a doom loop is because, again, that's an understandable response on some level, but that also makes it harder to get seen and harder to get a job, and so the candidates respond to that difficulty by sending in more and more resumes,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":18,"time":"7:43","seconds":463,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"and the companies respond in turn by filtering more and more out, and that's why we've called it a doom loop, because as bad as things are, and I can't remember a time when both sides were as unhappy,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":19,"time":"7:55","seconds":475,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"AI is not making it better. AI is making it worse. I feel like you just opened a can of worms for us to talk about here, where there's a million different directions we could take this. But I wanna address, and I'm mixing my metaphors here, but one of the elephants of the room, which is that there is a perception that software engineering jobs are in trouble.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":20,"time":"8:17","seconds":497,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And part of this is because we're seeing a change in how those roles are hired. We're seeing a change in the leveling of where those roles are hired. And yet, when you talk to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, they project that software development employment is going to grow 15% by 2034. When you look at job postings for engineers, I believe they're increasing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":21,"time":"8:40","seconds":520,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"So why does it feel so painful right now, and what's actually happening to technical talent that's on the market? I think there's a number of different things happening at the same time that make the picture really confusing, and so here's the way I see it. On the one hand, you know, it's unavoidably true that the job of software engineering and software development is already radically different than it was, you know No two or three years ago, but even sixty days ago. I mean, like, the pace at which change is happening is astonishing,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":22,"time":"9:14","seconds":554,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"and, you know, keeping up with that is almost its own full time job. And so I think there's a a big shift in what it even means to do that work and and and how those are being seen, and some people are looking at that and saying, oh my gosh, A software developer can produce so much more code, so many know, can ship so much more functionality that we need we need less of them.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":23,"time":"9:43","seconds":583,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"And you've seen some big public pronouncements from companies saying they're having to make layoffs or staffing cuts because of AI. I think a lot of that's probably overblown. I think that's a lot of cuts that maybe were gonna happen anyway that We overhired already. Let's have a good narrative for the stock market. Yeah. It's a much better it's a it's a much better story to say we you know, we're using AI to be so much more efficient than, like, geez, I over hired, or the business isn't going so well.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":24,"time":"10:07","seconds":607,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"So I wouldn't I don't necessarily think a lot of that represents real productivity gains yet by AI. But what I do think to address your question of why there's still so much hiring is, what I do think is if if software is cheaper and cheaper to build, which it is, I think there's more and more appetite for it. I think there's so many problems that software can still address that haven't been tackled because there's a lot of software to build, and it's been expensive that as it gets cheaper, I think, ultimately, there's need for more and more of it. So certainly, that's happening.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":25,"time":"10:37","seconds":637,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"But but nonetheless, you'd say, okay, so then there's lots more job postings. Surely, it should be easier and easier, but that's where you get back to the AI doom loop, and ultimately, what it becomes is kind of a signal problem. It's like a matching problem that if everybody's sending in hundreds or even thousands of job applications, you know, when they when they're looking for a role, which is happening,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":26,"time":"10:57","seconds":657,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"and by the way, software engineers are the worst, according to our data, they send out they use automation the most. They send out the most applications. We've been taught to automate for I mean, hey, they're cutting edge. It's what you and again, like, this is you know, they I do not think they're the they're the bad guys in this story by any stretch. They're just trying to get jobs. I totally empathize.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":27,"time":"11:16","seconds":676,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"But nonetheless, the fact of the matter is, when there's that big of a pile of resumes and the pile keeps getting bigger, it doesn't matter how many job postings there are, it's like a needle in a haystack, and when you add to the fact that everybody's resume is starting to look more and more the same, because AI does that really well, right, is all of a sudden, the signal is getting more and more attenuated, is that, you know, you're getting a thousand resumes, they all kind of look the same,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":28,"time":"11:39","seconds":699,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"and so the experience of a job seeker is just getting worse. It's like you're sending in, you know, a needle to an ever growing haystack, and you're making your needle look more like hay. It's just it's just gonna mean, you know, difficulty in finding in finding jobs and and getting matched. And so something's gotta give. The the process isn't working, and and that same pain is felt acutely on the side of companies who are saying,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":29,"time":"12:03","seconds":723,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"basically, the mirror image of that. I open up a job, and look, I have a a software engineering background. I graduated as a as a programmer. I worked as a as a programmer. I spent ten years hiring programmers before starting Greenhouse. And for decades, you know, getting an engineer to respond to an outbound recruiting was like the holy grail, like, oh my gosh, I got a candidate to talk to me. Like, this is the greatest thing that ever happened to me, because engineers basically sit there at their job and get job offers, like, showered down on them. And and so,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":30,"time":"12:35","seconds":755,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"you know, that's kinda where I think recruiters are used to, is like, oh my gosh, if I could only get some candidates, I'd be golden. And now, careful what you wish for, because they're awash in candidates. There's thousands of them at every job, and it's it's still it's still a bigger bigger problem than ever. So that's where it's just like, the system just isn't working for for anyone.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":31,"time":"12:54","seconds":774,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I wanna talk about how to fix the system. Yeah. But I feel like there are other problems that we haven't even addressed yet, which is beyond volume, we are also dealing with a trust crisis in hiring. Your survey last year found that, well, ninety one percent of recruiters have spotted candidate deception, forty one percent of candidates admit to using prompt injection to bypass AI filters,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":32,"time":"13:18","seconds":798,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and forty six percent of US job seeker seekers I'm gonna say that one more time. 46% of US job seekers say they lost trust in hiring this past year. This problem seems to be continuing to worsen, particularly as we're now seeing AI interviewing candidates and 38% of candidates walking away from hiring processes because it included an AI interview, which I would love to talk to you about.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":33,"time":"13:41","seconds":821,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"But how bad is this fraud problem? Is this a true underlying concern that everyone needs to worry about as well? You know, I think it it's definitely a big a big problem, and it's growing in scope. There's a bunch of different angles to it. Let me pull it, because you talked about a bunch of different things. Let me pull some of those apart. Because they're they're they're quite different. So one thing that's happening absolutely, as I as I mentioned a minute ago,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":34,"time":"14:05","seconds":845,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"job seekers are using AI to sort of magnify the amount of jobs that they're applying to and to make their resume kind of look more and more alike. In the middle of all that, there are people who are basically making fake resumes or fake job applications that aren't really at all true about what they've done, and that deception just ends up as noise in the system that has to get worked out. If you move a little bit further down into the interview funnel,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":35,"time":"14:32","seconds":872,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"you have job seekers, legitimate job seekers that actually want the job using AI to help them pass interviews. Right? We've seen InterviewCoder and other kind of interview copilot tools get better and smarter and harder to detect, so that as I'm being interviewed typically over Zoom and they're asking me questions or watching me code, that really I'm using AI as a job seeker to, like","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":36,"time":"14:59","seconds":899,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"a lot of people would call it cheating, to basically give me the answers to that that I'm being asked by by the interviewer, and that's a real problem, and that starts to erode trust as well. And I sort of hesitate, or I put scare quotes around the word cheating because, you know, it raises these really interesting questions. After all, aren't we hiring people to use AI at work? Isn't the company using AI to run the job process, to write the job description, to help interview candidates? And so why am I at the disadvantage I can't use AI? And companies are saying, well, look, you know, I don't wanna know what ChatGPT thinks, wanna know what you think. And so I think","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":37,"time":"15:35","seconds":935,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"the real answer is probably somewhere in between, and society kinda has yet to figure out the rules of the road as these technologies have advanced so fast about what is and isn't fair AI to use in a job interview setting, and then you have the real bad guys. So those are, we just talked about, sort of legitimate job seekers doing stuff to try to give them an edge with varying degrees of okayness. Then you've got the real bad guys because in the midst of all this noise and chaos and AI slop,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":38,"time":"16:01","seconds":961,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"it creates opportunities for bad guys to sneak in, right, because there's like, it's hard to mind all the all the all the doors at the same time. And so there's a growing industrial scale North Korean effort to infiltrate remote IT jobs using techniques like deepfakes, so they'll have typically a call center full of people, all pretending to be the same job seeker, trying to get in that one job, and they'll take turns on interviews.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":39,"time":"16:28","seconds":988,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"They'll deceive their way into your organization. They'll set up laptop farms in The US, and basically, they're trying to infiltrate supply chains, perform espionage, and so there's some real scary stuff out there as well. And so I don't wanna you know, those are all symptoms of what's going on right now. They're obviously very different in nature, and and you need different tools to try to weed them out as well. And it's definitely part of why we're seeing a return to flying candidates in for in person interviews, even if it's a remote role, or onboarding in person to try to help solve this.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":40,"time":"17:05","seconds":1025,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"But it seems like the problem of fake engineers applying is only increasing. What's the scope of this challenge for companies that are trying to hire Rowan engineers?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":41,"time":"17:18","seconds":1038,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"Yeah. I mean, I think the as a percentage of overall, you know, resumes that you may collect when you open up a job, it's not a huge percentage. So in our in our data, we see about one and a half to two percent of job seekers fail an ID verification, meaning, you know, the the technology that we use in Greenhouse to assure that this person is who they say they are, about a percent and a half or so are just failing those. So they're not they're definitely not who they say they are. So it's not that many, but if you think about opening up a job and getting two or 300 applicants,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":42,"time":"17:58","seconds":1078,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"and you realize that, like, maybe a half a dozen of those or so are simply not who they say they are, like, you better hope you don't hire one of them. And so it's less about, you know, the how many of them are there, and more about, are you sure you're not hiring one of them? Because if you do, you know, obviously the ramifications, I don't need to tell you or your audience,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":43,"time":"18:16","seconds":1096,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"of hiring a North Korean spy are pretty bad. Yeah. Maybe not an ideal day at work to make that hire.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":44,"time":"18:22","seconds":1102,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"And listen, I mean, it sounds kind of fantastical. I can certainly tell you, when I started this job and began to launch Greenhouse in 2012, I didn't think I'd be fighting North Korea. That wasn't part of my my game plan here, but but here we are, and it and I've seen the evidence. I have watched videos of, you know, people purporting to to apply for jobs that have been discovered, you know, to be to be North Korean spies.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":45,"time":"18:47","seconds":1127,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"I've seen the forensic evidence when they do the detailed logs of looking at IP addresses and device fingerprints and, you know, the sort of digital exhaust of when you apply for a job, and and so this stuff is is quite scary. But, again, I think the more common thing that people come across is simply, you know, this is misrepresentation. This person either is sending a friend to interview for the job, you know, for them, and so it's the person I'm interviewing isn't actually the person who applied,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":46,"time":"19:17","seconds":1157,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"because they're trying to help them, you know, get get the job, or they're using some, you know, side tool to help pass an interview when it wasn't really their thinking that went into it. Those things are almost universal. Those things are extremely common. So if","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":47,"time":"19:32","seconds":1172,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"we're just seeing both sides of this process, both the interviewees and interviewers lean into AI to help sort through or spread themselves farther.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":48,"time":"19:45","seconds":1185,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"But it's not really solving the problem yet. How should we be trying to solve this doom loop that's occurring? Yeah. So, I mean, that's what I spend my days thinking about, and as much as we've talked about the problem and given it this catchy name of the doom loop, you know, the real job is how do we how do we fix it? And it starts by understanding the problem deeply.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":49,"time":"20:03","seconds":1203,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"I wanna be clear, AI is not the problem itself. I think AI I'm an AI optimist. I think there's a ton of possibility. There's a ton of potential. AI's already had tremendously positive impacts in almost every area of work, including in hiring, but it's the way that people it's the tools that people have had available to them, and the way that they've used those tools that's created this problem. And so that points to a way out, which is to say, what if we created better tools, better ways to use AI to help people get jobs, to help people make hires in ways that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":50,"time":"20:36","seconds":1236,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"didn't make the process worse, but rather made it better? And so that's the thing I think about all the time at Greenhouse, and what we're trying to do is how can we take advantage of the power and the potential of AI to make things better and to help bring humanity, bring trust back into the process, and to help accelerate the process, make it easier, make it more efficient to hire and to get a job.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":51,"time":"21:02","seconds":1262,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"So that's, I think, where the way forward lies. One of the ways you can obviously leverage AI","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":52,"time":"21:08","seconds":1268,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"to help solve this is to have AI screener interviews. We're starting to see this be a common first line of defense.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":53,"time":"21:16","seconds":1276,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"How is that going so far? Yeah, I think it's gonna become increasingly common. You know, it got off to a bit of a rocky start. We've just published a survey, you know, highlighting some of the concerns that job seekers had with sort of the first generation of, you know, AI led interviewing tools. And, you know, not surprisingly, that first wave, like, the voice quality was was a little spotty, and and there's a lot of things where it's like an uncanny valley. You feel like you might be talking to a an image of a robot instead of an actual person.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":54,"time":"21:49","seconds":1309,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"It interrupts you when it shouldn't or, know, vice versa. And so I think it hasn't been always a smooth or a great experience. And I think more to the point is, additionally, companies haven't always been transparent, surprisingly, about whether you're gonna speak to an interview with a person or whether you're gonna speak to an AI, and so if you're expecting an interview and you show up and there's a there's an AI bot,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":55,"time":"22:13","seconds":1333,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"it's really jarring. And so, in our most recent survey, almost two thirds of people have now come across an AI interview somewhere in the wild, which is a big growth from where it was a year ago, but over a third, almost 40% of people have walked away from a process because the process has been so janky, and so I do think that there's a ways to go. I think the new generation of AI interviewing tools is much better. I think the quality of voice AI has gone way up.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":56,"time":"22:43","seconds":1363,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"I think it's much more naturalistic, and I think we're being a lot more transparent now about, hey, here's how this works, and here's what you're going to expect, and I think when you explain it to people, what they start to see is like, hang on a second. The fact that the company's using AI to do, say, a first interview, it it means that you can remove the gatekeeping.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":57,"time":"23:04","seconds":1384,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"It means that that whole problem of getting lost in the pile, you know, sending in, you know, a needle in a haystack to thousands of other resumes, hoping that you're one of the few people granted an expensive, time consuming, hard to schedule interview, instead, you can really open up the funnel and say, pretty much anyone can get a first interview, and give yourself a fair chance to show what you're capable of. And so,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":58,"time":"23:30","seconds":1410,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"I think as long as the experience is is good, and I think as long as there's transparency about what is and isn't gonna happen, I think people are gonna start to really, warm up to the idea that, again, this is a way where AI can actually open up opportunity, where AI can be less biased, more available, and there's innumerable ways. I mean, if anything, I've built my career here at Greenhouse on the notion that most job interviews are bad and need to be helped,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":59,"time":"24:00","seconds":1440,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"and so I think the the bar for the current, you know, human led job interview is pretty low, and when you think about I mean, I can give you so many examples. Who hasn't had the example where, for exam you know, you you take a job interview, the person spends fifty seven of the minutes of the hour, you know, hammering you with questions, then and they go, Alright, got three minutes left. What questions did you have for me? It's like, you","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":60,"time":"24:23","seconds":1463,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"know, you don't really get a fair shot at asking what you wanna know. There's all this pressure to not ask about things like benefits or vacation. But if you're interviewed by an AI, of course, you don't have those problems. It can be infinitely patient. It can answer any question, you know, that you want. It's not gonna judge you. It's not gonna care if you have an accent.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":61,"time":"24:42","seconds":1482,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"It's gonna be available to work around your schedule, so if you're working full time, or if you're a caregiver. So there's a lot of ways in which the current system just doesn't work well for people taking face to face interviews, that an AI led interview can actually make things much better. So I do think it's a very promising technology for bringing trust and making process","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":62,"time":"25:03","seconds":1503,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"better and more efficient as well. I like this perspective of AI interviews, when communicated effectively and set up effectively, actually opening up opportunities for applicants. Because one of the natural things we've seen from companies as a response to this mass amount of applications has been to lean into referrals. While referrals can be great to find qualified candidates,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":63,"time":"25:24","seconds":1524,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and those of us who are farther along in our careers often benefit from them, especially if we've been intentional about building networks, They can also be challenging for early career job seekers looking for opportunities, looking to get involved. So having other tools in the process that can help people get an opportunity and stand out does seem like the right approach to avoid us continuing to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":64,"time":"25:47","seconds":1547,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"push, you know, newer end job market entrants from being","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":65,"time":"25:51","seconds":1551,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"kept out of some of these roles. Yeah. I think that's right. You know, historically so just to put some context, know, Greenhouse across our entire customer base collect about 22,000,000 job applications a month, so we see lots of hiring data. And forever, employer referrals has been the most effective source of hire. In other words, they have the highest chance of getting a hire when a referral is made versus any other way of getting a candidate. The problem is there's just not enough of them, there's no real way to make more.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":66,"time":"26:21","seconds":1581,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"And so for a company, that means, you know, there's only so much you can do to get referrals, and to your point for, you know, if you're a job seeker, like, you know, there's not that many referrals available. They're not available to everyone, and so it's just not a systematic answer to the problems of the job market as a whole. So my advice to a job seeker is absolutely if you can if you can get a referral, get one, but most people can't.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":67,"time":"26:42","seconds":1602,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"It's not really gonna scale. What we can do is think about what is why does that work, and what can we do to help it scale? And so that's why we created this feature of DreamJobs. So last year at Greenhouse, we launched this tool for job seekers called My Greenhouse and gave them access to this DreamJob feature functionality, which basically is simply lets them apply","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":68,"time":"27:07","seconds":1627,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"to all the jobs that they want across all the Greenhouse customers. But one time a month, they can indicate one job application as their dream job. And simply doing that is a really powerful signal of intent because, after all, that's a limited resource. I only get one a month as a job seeker, and so the job seeker's gonna think really carefully about where am I gonna use that one? It's gotta be a job I really want. It's gotta be a job I think I'm really good at, and have a chance to get. And so it's a little bit like kind of an early declaration","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":69,"time":"27:35","seconds":1655,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"of college admittance, where, you know, it's a signal to that college that you really wanna go there because of the scarcity. It's the same on the on the on the on the job side, and and so Dream Job, on the company side, when they open up their role, and if you if you think about that image that we've talked about where they have thousands of applications, they'll have a prioritized inbox","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":70,"time":"27:53","seconds":1673,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"that will show them internal applications from other employees for that role, employer referrals that they've collected of people who work there who say, you know, I've got a candidate to refer to you, and dream job applicants. Why? Because those are the high signal jobs, really a strong signal of intent and fit, you're and gonna be much more likely to find a hire in in that group, and it's really working. 2,000 people are have already gotten their jobs through Greenhouse Dream Job, and they converted about five times higher of a rate than every other job seeker","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":71,"time":"28:23","seconds":1703,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"who applies to those jobs. And so it we we have shown that when you bring some signal, you know, to the table, you can actually cut through a lot of this noise. You can sort of break it or interrupt the doom loop and make the process actually work better for people. Thanks to Galileo for sponsoring this episode.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":72,"time":"28:40","seconds":1720,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Their new 165 page comprehensive guide to mastering multi agent systems is freely available on their website at galileo.ai, and provides you the lens you need to understand when multi agent systems add value versus single agent approaches, how to design them efficiently, and how to build reliable systems that work in production. Download it for free at the link in the show description to discover how to continuously improve your AI agents,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":73,"time":"29:12","seconds":1752,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"identify and avoid common coordination pitfalls, master context engineering for agent collaboration, measure performance with multi agent metrics, and much more. This is a lot of great data, and I think it's a very interesting innovation here too to provide candidates an opportunity to more strongly signal, hey, this job is important to me. I think I'm deeply aligned with it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-73","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":74,"time":"29:33","seconds":1773,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"What would be your advice broadly to people listening who are job hunting or are thinking about finding their next role? You mentioned finding a referral if you can, indicating your top jobs if you're applying for Greenhouse Dream job is a great option. What's the broader strategy that candidates, particularly technical candidates, should be using in today's job market? Yeah, look, you know, I think","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-74","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":75,"time":"29:54","seconds":1794,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"it's not there's no silver bullet. It is a difficult job market, and unfortunately, the best advice boils down to, you know, a bunch of hard work in elbow grease. What I would say is, generally speaking, those auto applies don't really work. It's sort of a false progress. You feel like, I've applied to so many jobs, you know, but you really haven't. You've just pushed a button and spun the wheel.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-75","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":76,"time":"30:17","seconds":1817,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"I talked to someone earlier today. He's graduating from undergraduate. He's got a mathematics degree, and he's like, Look, I went into Claude, you know, and he's a son of a friend of mine. He called me for job advice. Said, went into Claude, and in about thirty minutes, I created a bot that's automatically applying to Jobstream. I applied to so many, it's not working. I'm like, yeah, know, I see the data. Everyone's doing that. It doesn't work. And so,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-76","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":77,"time":"30:39","seconds":1839,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"you know, it can feel good to sort of take that step and see the numbers go up, but but it's not really getting you anywhere. And, unfortunately, the real advice is, you know, as you kinda said, like, if you can find referrals, definitely do. By the way, you don't always have to ask people, hey. Can you nominate me to be hired for a specific job? But asking for advice is a great","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-77","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":78,"time":"30:59","seconds":1859,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"way to get a job. There's an old adage in startup circles, if you ask for money, you get advice, and if you ask for advice, you get money. Same applies here, like, you ask people for, you know, help or thoughts in your job, you know, they may, oh, gee, actually, have a place that you might want to apply to, or I can call a friend and see if they've got an opening. So, you know, you can you can do those kind of things. I think being involved in","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-78","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":79,"time":"31:20","seconds":1880,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"online and offline communities is a great way because recruiters know that too, and they're looking in those communities. So this has been happening forever. I started, for example, the first dot net programmers community back in the early two thousands, really as a way to find talent, and so we buy pizza, and we'd host 30 or 40 people a month to talk about programming topics, and when you found the smart ones, you know, when you had a job opening, you knew you knew who to call. So going to those things and meeting people can can really, you know, be be there, and then it really is just about patience and hard work, and, you know, count","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-79","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":80,"time":"31:53","seconds":1913,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"yourself as applying to a real job where you've done the research, where you've sent a personalized message saying something real about the company, saying something real about the job, ideally even getting someone that you may know there. Like, those, if you if you notch those repeatedly for a period of time, you'll get much more progress on a job than just like, spray and pray. Big plus one for me to a couple of things in particular. One,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-80","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":81,"time":"32:16","seconds":1936,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"the idea of putting the legwork in to meet people at the companies you want to work in. This has been something that's been really successful for me. When I was a junior senior in college, I did a whole informational interview series with 20 plus people across various companies to, a, understand where I wanted to apply, and b, meet a network of folks, and it had an incredible impact.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-81","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":82,"time":"32:37","seconds":1957,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"The and and I'll note on that front, by the way, anyone who is listening, who is an early career professional, who wants to talk to me, please reach out. You can reach me on LinkedIn, on Twitter, through the Substack app. But I if you're a listener and you would like to chat, I would love to talk to you and and see if I can help push you to your next role. Super thankful for all of you listening, and I think it's a really important thing to do to give back. And anyone who's listening who is an executive or is a leader here or is farther in their career, I think almost all of us have had this experience where someone we knew, whether it's someone we worked with or someone we'd met at a conference or whatever else,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-82","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":83,"time":"33:16","seconds":1996,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"has been impactful for us around finding the next role, finding the next promotion. It's so important to give back when you have the opportunity. This obviously creates reciprocal positive network effects. The other thing that you mentioned that I love is this idea of joining communities and building in public. Open source software is having an absolute renaissance.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-83","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":84,"time":"33:38","seconds":2018,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"You can code more than ever. You can buy a Claude Code subscription or Codex or whatever your favorite is. You can use open code, and there is an opportunity for you to build in public and and gain recognition for it. And even something as simple as like a a Claude code skill I developed that now has like 1,200 GitHub stars is out there. Like, you know, that doesn't matter to me today. I'm not looking for a new job, but it's a great signal of, Oh, someone is someone who's building. There's a reason I do this podcast.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-84","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":85,"time":"34:05","seconds":2045,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Part of it is that I enjoy it, but do I also think about the long term benefits of knowing people in the industry, being public about my work? Absolutely. So I highly encourage anyone who is thinking long term about their search to, or even short term as well, to say, maybe you should write a blog post about something you're building. Maybe you should, you know, post a LinkedIn like this, I built this thing on GitHub.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-85","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":86,"time":"34:26","seconds":2066,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"You should go chat with this person. I know it's higher effort, but these things pay off, and they compound long term too. Yeah. And I wanna and I wanna highlight something in particular that you said","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-86","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":87,"time":"34:36","seconds":2076,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"around, you know, the opportunity to build something and put it out there. You know, I think one underappreciated dynamic of the fact that these technologies are evolving so quickly that can be really powerful if you're a job seeker is the fact that when there's a new technology, it's new to everyone. And so if you're on the job market today, you can kind of have as much experience as almost anyone in the world at building Claude Code skills and whatever they're gonna ship next week.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-87","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":88,"time":"35:05","seconds":2105,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"And so, yeah, it's hard to be the world's most experienced, you know, at some technology that's been out for ten or fifteen years, and so I think, you know, people worry, oh, geez. What am I gonna do as an entry level person? I would argue that you have a real opportunity, particularly in today's market, where the technology is changing literally every month, to be a first mover and to develop real expertise at something","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-88","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":89,"time":"35:28","seconds":2128,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"that very few people can, and showcase it. I think that is by far the best opportunity to stay current, to develop skills, and then ultimately, Conor, to your point, to develop a bit of a public profile and some reputation that can help you in innumerable ways, including in getting a job. I love this mindset reframe, because I know it can feel really scary right now with how fast change is happening.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-89","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":90,"time":"35:49","seconds":2149,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Look, we've all heard a million executives talk about the importance of a growth mindset to long term, and, you know, it can feel overblown. But in this moment, I cannot recommend enough leaning in and building and trying things because, as Daniel's saying here, there is an uncalculable level of opportunity, and there is an extremely level playing field. If you get, you know, a five x Codex subscription","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-90","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":91,"time":"36:14","seconds":2174,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"or a five x Claude Code subscription, and you run a couple parallel agent sessions, you can get a lot done. Even if you're not using a virtual machine with a million sessions that are running on your repos in parallel without you thinking about it. There is so much you can do with these tools. There's so much you can learn. There's a million different learning opportunities and events happening here, and if you lean in now,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-91","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":92,"time":"36:35","seconds":2195,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"it is going to pay off massively in dividends in your career. And I would actually argue, if you fail to lean in, and you abdicate the responsibility to grow in the career, that you are at major risk for the next couple of years as well. I think that's right. Look, I think,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-92","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":93,"time":"36:50","seconds":2210,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"you know, being old doesn't have a lot of benefits, but one of them is it has a benefit as a perspective, and so when I graduated college in the mid nineties, software development was expensive. I mean, to buy a compiler or an IDE, which was kind of new at the time, could cost you a thousand dollars, or $900, in $19.95 dollars, you know, just to buy the tools to write code,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-93","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":94,"time":"37:13","seconds":2233,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"to develop and ship it to get it to customers. You literally had to burn it onto physical media and deliver it to them. There was no way to showcase what you had done to anyone, so no one would ever find out about it. And when you think about the analog today, that you can start building free software anytime, that you can immediately deploy it worldwide for free, and then you can create your own YouTube channel or go on TikTok","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-94","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":95,"time":"37:37","seconds":2257,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"and showcase what you've done, write a story about it on LinkedIn, like, the possibilities to create value and to communicate broadly, like, it's hard to realize how new and how powerful that is, but I can tell you how different it is than it has been, and I think still not as widely appreciated as it could be for what it means to getting a job and to having impact as a young person.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-95","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":96,"time":"38:00","seconds":2280,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And this narrative that we're talking about here, this area of opportunity, this era of opportunity, I think it pushes back at some data that I saw Greenhouse put out, which is that sixty two percent of Gen Z entry level workers have lost trust in the hiring process entirely. And meanwhile, you're seeing on the opposite end, your 2025 survey found that 70% of hiring managers","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-96","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":97,"time":"38:22","seconds":2302,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"do trust AI to make faster, better hiring decisions. This can feel scary, but as you put it, there is this opportunity to lean in. What do you make of all this back and forth, and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-97","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":98,"time":"38:35","seconds":2315,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"how candidates should be approaching it? Yeah. Again, I think it's I think it's wise to be aware of the downsides and the risks of AI. We started this conversation talking about the AI doom loop and sort of the systematic problems that can happen when spam and AI slop it out of control, but I think people also should, you know, and are very cognizant of the fact that AI can","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-98","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":99,"time":"38:58","seconds":2338,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"represent and magnify existing biases, that AI can make unexplainable decisions and invent, you know, hallucinations. Like, those things are real to be aware of. But I think if the thinking stops there, it's a huge missed opportunity, and I think instead, the mindset of, given that those are possible risks, how can we design systems to overcome them, and actually then thinking from scratch, what are the possibilities to make things entirely better","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-99","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":100,"time":"39:27","seconds":2367,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"and to not be beholden to the way things used to be? And so, you know, I'll give you an example. I think, you know, hiring kind of just works how it always has, where people started the process with a resume and, you know, it used to be printed out on paper, and now you've taken that piece of paper and you've put it up on the computer screen. The same rectangle, your name at the top, a bunch of job listings.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-100","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":101,"time":"39:48","seconds":2388,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"And job ads used to be in the newspaper, you know, help wanted, and now they're, you know, up on Indeed, but it's kind of the same thing. Job title, a couple words, click here to apply. Kind of the same thing it always has been, and I think the opportunity in AI today is not, how do I make a so called faster horse and buggy, but can we stop and rethink hiring itself until we reimagine what hiring could become in the AI era? Why do we have job applications? Why do we have resumes","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-101","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":102,"time":"40:15","seconds":2415,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"at all? And I think if you if you're willing to think about those questions from my perspective, I think we see huge opportunities to not just, guard against biases or protect ourselves against the risks, but actually sometimes completely transcend them altogether. Like, there's a well known bias in job application response rates. There was a study out of University of Chicago decades ago that showed a randomized sample of sending out resumes with different names at the top and who got a callback.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-102","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":103,"time":"40:47","seconds":2447,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"A tremendous amount of bias if the name at the top was stereotypically black or white, or stereotypically male or female. And so we know that that bias exists in people, and if we're using AI systems to replicate that behavior, it'll probably exist in people as well, in AI as well. But what if we don't have job applications at all? What if that's not a thing?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-103","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":104,"time":"41:09","seconds":2469,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"What if instead, if you're interested in the job, talk to the AI, have a half hour conversation, answer some questions, show that you've got the skills, and then you can almost define that whole category of problem completely away. So I do think that if you think about the possibilities of AI, and you have the underlying pin the underpinnings underlying it of a solid structured hiring process with good science and good thinking behind fairness","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-104","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":105,"time":"41:38","seconds":2498,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"and and appropriateness, I think there's a ton of possibility to make the process work better for companies, feel more human, restore trust, and so I'm I'm really hopeful that in the next in the next era, when AI is really dominant in hiring, I think we're gonna see a huge improvement.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-105","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":106,"time":"41:57","seconds":2517,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I love this reframe, Daniel, and I think your perspective here about here's a problem, here's how this becomes an opportunity, is so fantastic. And it it brings to mind to me something else we've talked about in this show quite a bit, which is the idea that, you know, we have unleashed this massive throughput example, or a throughput improvement for AI coding.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-106","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":107,"time":"42:19","seconds":2539,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And yet, many folks see that and go, oh god, but, you know, code review is now this huge blocker. You know, we're we're having these huge systemic problems. We need to rethink these processes much more thoroughly than simply, okay, we have now improved code generation or resume generation to this rapid rate. You know, we can apply more, we can put more code out there.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-107","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":108,"time":"42:40","seconds":2560,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"We have to more radically rethink the systems that we built. And there is a reason for that. It's because the tools we have available to us are a step change different. They are digital employees that we can put to work for us. So, you know, I wrote an essay about this back in 2024, and it's only increased. You can look at you know, we talked a bit earlier about some of these","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-108","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":109,"time":"43:01","seconds":2581,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"AI layoff decisions. And I think one of the most prominent ones was was Block's decision to cut, what, 50% of their staff. And this, you know, I wrote a very long form piece around this, and it's it's in the ChainOfThought substack at newsletter.chainofthought.show for anyone who check it out. But there is a tension here between over hiring by some companies,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-109","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":110,"time":"43:25","seconds":2605,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"by, you know, stuck hiring processes, by the desire to accelerate every role with AI. And then some companies, and this is what Block says they're doing, and it'll be an interesting test case to see how true it is over time, are reimagining how their org structures work, are trying to be much more horizontal. You you can look at, I believe at Spotify, are saying, Hey, we're actually not hiring new roles unless you first prove you can't automate that role. Yeah. I might be mixing it up with Shopify because I do it all the time, but it's one of the two. And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-110","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":111,"time":"43:55","seconds":2635,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"we're just we're seeing some companies begin to reimagine what their whole structure looks like, what the organization looks like. I was just at Salesforce TDX, and they are now open sourcing a Telenor platform. It's a Salesforce. They never open source stuff. This is like an enterprise company that, you know, they're very close mode, they're realizing, no, we have to drive developer adoption to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-111","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":112,"time":"44:16","seconds":2656,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"have a long term future here and to win the long term. That's why they're pushing so much of agent force open source. I think we all need to be confronting this reality that our systems may not work in an AI future. We need to reevaluate them not just today, but in six months and another year. And so what I want to ask you, Daniel, is how have you reimagined the hiring process at Greenhouse itself,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-112","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":113,"time":"44:39","seconds":2679,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and how are you thinking you're going to have to reimagine it again in two, three, five years? Yeah. It's a great question, and, you know, I totally agree with the premise that,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-113","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":114,"time":"44:49","seconds":2689,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"you know, these are A step change technology means we have the opportunity and also the challenge to really reimagine so much of what work even means, what a job even involves, and can this work be done by a human or a bot? All these kinds of things, and how an organization works and creates value are challenges that everyone, including me, are grappling with every day.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-114","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":115,"time":"45:12","seconds":2712,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"For us at Greenhouse, how it showed up in how we hire, I would say the first thing we did was we realized over a year ago that there was this real misalignment between what the expectations and what the possibilities were of using AI in the job interview. Candidates, simply put, didn't know if it was okay or not to use AI. And so one of the very first things we did that got noticed in terms of changing our interview and how we hire was simply publishing,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-115","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":116,"time":"45:40","seconds":2740,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"here are our expectations and rules of the road for what we expect of you as a job seeker to using AI when it's okay, when it's not okay. And, you know, I think that was appreciated by job seekers who, again, you know, they're using it they're using AI in their day jobs. We're expecting them to use AI if we hire them. And so the message of don't use AI in the job interview process is confusing,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-116","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":117,"time":"46:07","seconds":2767,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"but at the same time, I need to assess you. And so putting down on paper, like, what is and isn't okay, I think was a really needed step. Now, you asked also how's gonna change in the future? Like, the societal rules of what's okay and the technology rules of what's possible are changing rapidly. So I am sure that advice will not survive a five year time horizon, and we're gonna have to continually revisit, like, what's expected, what's okay,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-117","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":118,"time":"46:32","seconds":2792,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"and what's not. Beyond that, I think what we've started to realize is some of the modes of assessment and interviewing that we've used historically don't survive contact with an AI world. So classically, you know, greenhouse followed sort of like proven science backed best practices and hiring, which includes a lot of show your work, and so, we would give lots of case studies and take home work for you to spend time and thoughtfulness on to show us what you're capable of,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-118","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":119,"time":"47:03","seconds":2823,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"and I think what we've come to see is nowadays, increasingly, people, and again, not blaming anyone, but people are using AI to create those, and so I give you a take home assignment, I say, Here's a scenario, you know, create a case study. You're not really understanding what that person's capable of, and so, we've, in a lot of cases, upgraded that assessment to be a lot more of a live session,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-119","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":120,"time":"47:26","seconds":2846,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"and in some cases, those live sessions can very much involve using AI. Like, I wanna see how you use, you know, the AI tools that you use, you know, that you're gonna use on the job when I'm interviewing. It's an important part of assessing your fluency. But shifting from more of a take home to more of a live interaction has been a better way to assess in an AI world. And then lastly, as I'll say, just the use of automated kind of AI led interviewing,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-120","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":121,"time":"47:51","seconds":2871,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"I think, is on the rise. We're gonna be using more and more as our customers.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-121","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":122,"time":"47:55","seconds":2875,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And as I said, I think it's a great way to open up the top of the funnel. I think it's a great way to give more people a shot, and at the same time, I think it's a much more efficient way for the company to put its time in spending our humans' time being more human. I think an important point, though, that you are making here is that transparency and communication about these processes matter. If you simply throw someone into an AI interview without awareness, or you throw them into a coding interview without telling them what tools to use,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-122","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":123,"time":"48:22","seconds":2902,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"you are not setting the candidate up for success, and you're not setting your process up for success. That's right. And, you know, I've always thought that one of the hardest things about hiring","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-123","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":124,"time":"48:32","seconds":2912,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"is separating out who's good at interviewing from who's good at the job.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-124","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":125,"time":"48:37","seconds":2917,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"100%.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-125","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":126,"time":"48:38","seconds":2918,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"And, like, it sounds simple, but really, you know, that's the core of what interviewing really is is there to do, and it works both ways. And so it also means you gotta separate out who's bad at interviewing from who's bad at the job. Because after all, I don't care if you're bad at interviewing. If you're great at the job, I wanna find those people as well. And so if you do your best to set those job seekers up for success, I wanna see your best work. I wanna find out what you're capable of, and job seekers are gonna be nervous. They're gonna be","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-126","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":127,"time":"49:09","seconds":2949,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"self conscious, they're not doing this as often as you may be, you know, interviewing people. Like, it is a it is an imbalanced dynamic that is really smart to be aware of because, you know, you're gonna miss out on people, and again, like, I'm an engineer, you know. The old saying about how can you tell an outgoing engineer they look at your feet when they're talking, like, it's true, like, we don't always we're not always known for our people skills, and so breaking through that and getting at, like, who is this person I'm meeting with, and are they capable of doing this job, is difficult. But I think setting them up, giving them the rules of the road, being transparent,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-127","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":128,"time":"49:41","seconds":2981,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"it's not just about being friendly or being, you know, touchy feely, but it's really scientifically the best way to find talent.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-128","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":129,"time":"49:49","seconds":2989,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I want to ask about engineering hiring specifically here, because I think many engineers who have been applying at top companies have been, you know, churning through leak code problems for for ages, and that's changing. We know we all used to use Stack Overflow in that. Sorry Stack Overflow That's all for right. That's changed. You can listen to my recent episode with Anush Elengovan at AMD, the CVP","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-129","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":130,"time":"50:12","seconds":3012,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"of AI there. And, you know, former software engineer, didn't code a lot for years, is now coding more than ever, has, you know, 10 plus agents in running in parallel for him across different repos. And yet, he's not touching a code editor. I'm not really touching a code editor. I'm doing little changes every once in while, but mostly I'm telling Claude code what to do. I'm either verbalizing to it a longer prompt or I'm just typing in a quick, hey, go do this. I'm throwing some notes in there. I'm feeding it my note system. I'm saying, what are the tasks you need to go accomplish?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-130","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":131,"time":"50:43","seconds":3043,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"How does a coding interview look in a world where","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-131","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":132,"time":"50:45","seconds":3045,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"I'm not coding by hand anymore? It's different. I mean, and again, these are evolutions that have been happening for many decades. So again, a lot of those, like, lead code interviews came out of an earlier mentality, which was about, you know, I need to understand your sort of fluency with core algorithms and data structures, like real comp sci stuff, because the generation earlier","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-132","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":133,"time":"51:05","seconds":3065,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"that I was familiar with that was writing software, That's what we had to do. Like, we had to write data structures to make software. We had to write linked lists. We had to traverse trees. We had to do those things, and so we thought, oh, the way to find a good software engineer is, like, ask them all these puzzling questions about how to, you know, reverse the letters in a word or whatever that was,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-133","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":134,"time":"51:23","seconds":3083,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"and, you know, already by then, even in the early 2000s, like, wasn't really the job anymore, but, you know, people thought of it that way, and I think now, the entire as you pointed out, the entire job is different. You're not sitting down and, you know, opening up a new thing and saying, in main parentheses, semicolon, like, it's not how the code is written anymore.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-134","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":135,"time":"51:43","seconds":3103,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"And so I think the job of a hiring team is to break apart, like, what we would say in my world competencies, like, what are the things that the person needs to be able to do well in order to succeed at this job? It probably ain't typing, and it definitely ain't linked lists. And then how are you gonna know? Like, what's the test you would give someone to know if they're good at those competencies, if they could do those things? And it's just way different than it was","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-135","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":136,"time":"52:06","seconds":3126,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"certainly a year ago, but even six months ago. And so I think we're seeing a big change in the job, and so you're seeing a big change in what's needed to evaluate it. You know, how you evaluate those things just has to evolve with what's the job.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-136","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":137,"time":"52:23","seconds":3143,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"We've talked a lot about the changes happening. And you've, I think, very kindly shared much of your playbook and thought process around it. What are your predictions for what's coming? Because, you know, Greenhouse has a ton of data. You're seeing all these insights. You have this great survey that just came out about AI hiring. What's next though? What what are you predicting is actually going to happen? Because as much as we want to believe in this future where we all figure this out, it's going to be great, and, you know, everyone's going to get hired for the right job for them, and we're going find the right candidates on the hiring side,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-137","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":138,"time":"52:58","seconds":3178,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"it's probably gonna be a little messier than that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-138","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":139,"time":"53:00","seconds":3180,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"Yeah. What's the old saying? Predictions are hard, especially about the future. It's a you know, I hesitate to make predictions about AI because because it's just evolving so rapidly. You know, I don't know that anyone predicted that AI would invent its own religion, but it happened. So, you know, I can't say for sure by the time this podcast goes live, let alone, you know, six months from now, when someone's listening to it, you know, the underlying landscape is just moving so fast. But here's what I can say,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-139","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":140,"time":"53:32","seconds":3212,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"is, you know, the I think a lot of people are coming to the realization that the hiring process is not working, and that the way AI has been deployed in a lot of ways is making it worse, not better. That has to change. Like, it can't continue. And from my standpoint, I can tell you, within our customer base, and within the jobs that they're posting for, it absolutely will change. It will become","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-140","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":141,"time":"53:53","seconds":3233,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"both more AI more AI poneated, let's say, more AI powered in the process of applying for a job, in the process of qualifying and being interviewed for jobs, even in the process of getting and doing a job. They you know, and job seekers are gonna bring their own agentic tools to the to the process, and help them in innumerable ways in in getting jobs, and I think the the opportunity that that we have is doing that in ways","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-141","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":142,"time":"54:23","seconds":3263,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"that make it more human and more trusted. To make that more concrete, I think you should expect that you're gonna have more conversations with AI, you know, as you go into the job market than you have in the past. I think you should expect the people that you come in contact with to have a lot of information, a lot of data that they can bring, because every conversation is now recorded and analyzed,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-142","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":143,"time":"54:47","seconds":3287,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"and so there'll be much more data informed conversations. And I think you should expect that, like, we're gonna see better kinds of proof on both sides. People are getting scammed by fake job postings. You should expect to be able to see some proof that this job posting is a real company that's not gonna scam me, and you should expect to show proof that you're a real person and that you are who you say you are.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-143","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":144,"time":"55:07","seconds":3307,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"And so I think if we can bring those pieces to the table, ultimately, we can break apart this doom loop and make the process more efficient and take advantage of the power and potential of AI while removing or mitigating a lot of the risks and problems.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-144","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":145,"time":"55:24","seconds":3324,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Daniel, thank you for a fascinating conversation. It's been a delight having you on the show, and I think there's a lot of great insights in here that will be valuable both for job seekers and for those looking to hire. Let's close on that note. For people listening who want to get better at hiring, or who are looking for a job right now and want to get better at finding one, where should they start? We've tons of information on our website, so going to greenhouse.com is a great place to start. If you're a job seeker, you can sign up for a profile at mygreenhouse.com,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-145","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":146,"time":"55:52","seconds":3352,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"create a profile, and start searching for and tracking jobs today, and using our tools to help you do that better. We've also published tons of information on our YouTube channel and on our blog that give great advice and insights about what's happening in the job market, so definitely check that out as well. Amazing. And listeners, while you're at it, maybe just make sure you're subscribed to our newsletter at newsletter.chainofthought.show","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-146","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":147,"time":"56:13","seconds":3373,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"to get this episode and all the insights in it in your inbox when it comes out and future episodes as well because hopefully we're gonna be sharing a lot more great data from Greenhouse and from other companies. Daniel, thank you for taking us through this journey of how engineers, leaders, and everybody else should be understanding today's job market and approaching it. I hope that the advice you have given here will be valuable, and that the data is going to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-147","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":148,"time":"56:40","seconds":3400,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"guide us in the right direction. And, for anyone who is listening and is looking for a new role, if I can help in any way, please reach out. Would love to hear from you. Would love to be helpful if I can.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-148","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75","episode":58,"guid":"abc09d9f-a018-4c3d-b76a-34ff5c75c0bf","episodeTitle":"The AI Hiring Doom Loop: Applications Up 239%, Hires Down 75% | Daniel Chait, Greenhouse","publishedAt":"2026-05-06","segmentIndex":149,"time":"56:52","seconds":3412,"speaker":"Daniel Chait","text":"And, Daniel, again, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thanks so much, Conor. It's been a pleasure. It's a great topic.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/58-the-ai-hiring-doom-loop-applications-up-239-hires-down-75/#t-149","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"If you want your model to do something different, you don't go and perform brain surgery on the neurons. You don't reinvent the architecture of the algorithm. Let me go and invent a new post-transformer architecture. No, you get data.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:19","seconds":19,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Welcome back to Chain of Thought, everyone. I am your host, Conor Bronsdon. My guest today is Alex Ratner, co-founder and CEO of Snorkel AI. You have maybe heard of him. They have done quite a few cool things over at Snorkel. They actually started as a research project focused on programmatic data labeling. Seven years in, though, the company has evolved considerably, achieving a valuation of, I think, $1.3 billion in 2025. And Alex's team is now doing some of the most interesting work in both AI evals, benchmark design, model weights, data set labeling, including a major Open Benchmarks grant program with partners like Hugging Face, Together AI, and PyTorch. And Alex also did his PhD at Stanford where he built the Snorkel open source project and helped establish data-centric AI as a field. He, I believe, is an affiliate professor of computer science at the University of Washington. Go Dawgs! That's my alma mater. Alex, welcome to Chain of Thought.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":2,"time":"1:13","seconds":73,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"[OVERLAP] Well, thanks so much for having me. And I'm an affiliate assistant professor. So I, you","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-1-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:17","seconds":77,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Ah!","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-1-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":4,"time":"1:18","seconds":78,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"[OVERLAP] know, in startup world, titles are all made up. In academic world, the titles have a little bit more weight behind them, right? So I,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-1-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":5,"time":"1:25","seconds":85,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Very, yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-1-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":6,"time":"1:26","seconds":86,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"[OVERLAP] but I was fortunate enough to get some time there. UW's amazing. And then, you know, snorkel sucked me into the vortex a couple of years back. But","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-1-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":7,"time":"1:35","seconds":95,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] It makes","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-1-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":8,"time":"1:35","seconds":95,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"[OVERLAP] excited","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-1-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":9,"time":"1:35","seconds":95,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] total sense.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-1-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":10,"time":"1:35","seconds":95,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"[OVERLAP] to chat today. Thanks for having me on.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-1-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":11,"time":"1:36","seconds":96,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, super excited for our conversation. Before I dive too much farther in, though, I do want to do a quick thank you to our presenting sponsors, Galileo. They were recently acquired by Cisco. Congratulations to them on that. Very excited to see how their eval intelligence framework continues to evolve. Check them out at Galileo.ai. and congratulations again to Cisco. You can actually check out a lot of Cisco's strategy and their thought process, I presume, behind this acquisition from my conversation with G2 Patel on the podcast last year. G2 is CPO and president of Cisco, and I think if you're interested in the long-term thought process of Cisco and its leadership around how AI is taking shape, a lot on inference, a lot on compute crises, that's a great one, plus some great leadership tips. But We definitely want to talk compute and inference today, but I think it's important to stop, talk maybe about what's driving a lot of that inference desire. And that is in large part agentic AI. And there is an evaluation gap that has formed in AI agents. Alex, you recently published a framework for what you're calling the evaluation gap in agentic AI. Walk me through what you're seeing and maybe break down how you're seeing companies fail to accurately evaluate agents in doing real work.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":12,"time":"2:50","seconds":170,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"Yeah, well, also congrats to Galileo and Cisco. Pretty exciting news and great teams. Yeah, so I think the, I mean, I'll talk about the phrase and then I'll talk, maybe I'll start actually just talking about some of where we think this evaluation gap is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":13,"time":"3:08","seconds":188,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-3-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":14,"time":"3:09","seconds":189,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"[OVERLAP] kind of occurring, just because that's a lot of what I think everyone is curious about and we're super curious about today, including with the Open Benchmark Grant that you mentioned. I'll start with the phrase, this is just a comment basically, or a hypothesis that I think many share, that our ability to do stuff with LLMs, with AI models and AI agents, has actually significantly, more significantly than people realize sometimes, outpaced our ability to measure their capabilities. And to measure is to define. So I would really say, you know, to both define and measure those capabilities in precise ways. Pardon me. So I think, you know, what does this mean? I mean, if you're kind of messing around with an agent and you're trying kind of, you know, coding projects or, you know, OpenClaw style things, like, I guess, let's say OpenClaw with proper isolation from your bank accounts, you know, This is okay that there's a jagged frontier of capabilities. I think when you get to the enterprise setting, when you get to high impact use cases that have real value in the upward direction and real risk or cost of errors in the downward direction, this evaluation gap is is potentially stops you from actually doing anything with AI responsibly. And of course, this evaluation gap is also about how you advance AI, whether you're talking about the AI labs that are kind of pushing on the general frontier capabilities, or you're talking about a vertical specific or enterprise specific team trying to build in their swim lane. If you can't measure, you can't improve, right? And you can't deploy safely. So, you know, I think that's something to emphasize. And I think part of why this evaluation gap occurs, you know, there's another phrase that has been used for quite a while now of kind of this idea of a jagged frontier, but this idea that the frontier of AI capabilities, kind of where it works and where it doesn't work yet, is somewhat kind of jagged and unpredictable. And I think that's actually something that's been true with AI for a long time, but it's just even more true today because the surface area of AI capabilities and the complexity of those capabilities has grown so insanely. There's actually an old you know, this old thing called Moravec's paradox, which is this idea that we often conflate kind of what's hard for humans and what's hard for AI. Back in the 80s, one of my favorite stories, and I promise I'll arc this back to the framework, but, you know, is this, back in the 80s, they'd had like one of the first kind of academic summer programs to think about AI. and they had assigned all of what's called computer vision to a single PhD intern for their summer project.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-3-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":15,"time":"6:03","seconds":363,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] How","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-3-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":16,"time":"6:03","seconds":363,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"[OVERLAP] Now,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-3-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":17,"time":"6:03","seconds":363,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] things","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-3-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":18,"time":"6:04","seconds":364,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"[OVERLAP] I'm","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-3-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":19,"time":"6:04","seconds":364,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] change,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-3-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":20,"time":"6:04","seconds":364,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"[OVERLAP] sure, yeah,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-3-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":21,"time":"6:04","seconds":364,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] man.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-3-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":22,"time":"6:05","seconds":365,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"I mean, that's a multi-billion dollar academic endeavor, research endeavor, industry of computer vision. How do we deal with image and video data automatically? But at the time they figured, hey, that's, even babies can see objects. That must be straightforward. We're gonna go work on long form math and chess and Go and things like that. So this idea that what's easy, what's hard for humans is gonna be hard for AI and vice versa, often leads you astray. We see it today with things like, look at how LLMs have crushed math and coding competition problems that most of us would struggle with. And yet, you can ask a coding agent to do a much more mundane-seeming task, but one that has messier inputs and messier outputs and a longer set of steps required, and it might fall down. And that has a lot to do with how models are trained with reinforcement learning. And there are reasons that you can explain and predict this, but it's counterintuitive, right? So if I can summarize, the fact that AI capabilities have been advancing so rapidly beyond our capability to measure them, the fact that measurement itself is getting so difficult because of how many capabilities there are and how complex they are, and the fact that the frontier capabilities are so jagged and counterintuitive, all means that there's this real problem and real need to get better at doing evaluation. So that's what we mean by the evaluation gap. Now, I'll just pause there for a second, because I went off on a terrific ramble about that. But I could go on and talk about some of the most interesting areas, we think, in terms of addressing that gap and how to address it. But I'll pause for half a second.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":23,"time":"7:57","seconds":477,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, first of all, fascinating. Love it. The example of the computer vision student, and that's the person who's holding this whole program together, compared to the multi-billion dollar industry, it might be in the 10s or 20s now, I have no idea.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":24,"time":"8:10","seconds":490,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"Subtle yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":25,"time":"8:10","seconds":490,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Today, it could be 100 billion. It is crazy to see that growth. And yet, we did solve chess first to your point like chess has been kind of solved for a while it took us a lot longer to get really good image gen video gen let alone image recognition uh so i think this is a a great example here and yeah bring it home for me where where are you seeing those gaps today like what what are we getting wrong that we think, you know, humans are great at or terrible at and then assuming a model is going to do? And how does that then apply to the, as you put it, the gap that we have here?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":26,"time":"8:46","seconds":526,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"Yeah, and I mean, this is what fascinates us every day. So I guess at Snorkel,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":27,"time":"8:54","seconds":534,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"the thing that we do every day is we're building, we're developing data sets and environments for doing evaluation, doing tuning, doing reinforcement learning. And so we work with pretty much all the major frontier labs, we work with vertical AI teams at places like Harvey, and we work with enterprises who are trying to get more into getting more specific or use case specific agents to work. We're constantly trying to actually do this. We're producing thousands of data sets and environments every week or every day sometimes for most of the well-known coding agents out there, for example. And most of the data environments we produce are only valuable if they expose gaps where the models our challenge. In fact, sometimes that's the only thing we get paid for. So we're not a staffing firm that's just kind of throwing people over the wall. We're actually working with the research teams and using humans plus technology to probe this boundary of exactly where there are gaps. So I can't share anything specific to customer work because it's obviously very it's data we keep very private. But broad strokes, trying to find this boundary of where does a coding agent, where does a clinical co-pilot, where does a legal deep research tool fall down, and where does it struggle? Finding that frontier is what we do every day. So","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":28,"time":"10:28","seconds":628,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] So","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-9-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":29,"time":"10:28","seconds":628,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"[OVERLAP] taking a step","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-9-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":30,"time":"10:28","seconds":628,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] on","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-9-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":31,"time":"10:28","seconds":628,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"[OVERLAP] back","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-9-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":32,"time":"10:28","seconds":628,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-9-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":33,"time":"10:29","seconds":629,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"[OVERLAP] from...","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-9-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":34,"time":"10:29","seconds":629,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] frontier, I have a quick question. So you mentioned Harvey. My understanding is Snorkel worked with Harvey to build a new benchmark. I think it's called Big Law Bench,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-9-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":35,"time":"10:39","seconds":639,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"[OVERLAP] Yes,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-9-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":36,"time":"10:39","seconds":639,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] particularly for","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-9-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":37,"time":"10:39","seconds":639,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"[OVERLAP] yeah, yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-9-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":38,"time":"10:40","seconds":640,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"evaluating their work.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":39,"time":"10:41","seconds":641,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"Yeah. And we're partnering with these teams. This is all credit to the Harvey research team and our research and data team collaborates with them. But as they published about in their post, this was really looking at more complex kind of agentic settings And I'll get back to this with kind of a framework of like, where are we seeing the frontier, just super broad strokes, but it was a, you know, it's a legal deep research style set of tasks where, you know, you're trying to answer a complex question with a complex, you know, sometimes multi-page output and tool use is required. So looking up information, looking up citations, et cetera. So, you know, this is, you know, kind of the deep research format of task was the style of task that we were examining in the benchmark, but really looking at it in a really complex domain. You know, these are tasks that might take a human, you know, five, 10, 15 hours to complete, right? With multiple tools, multiple citations, complex reasoning, complex rubrics, or kind of criteria that need to be met to consider the output of success. So that's an example of a kind of benchmark today that reveals a place where even the best LLMs struggle. So taking a step back, what are the bigger kind of axes here? We put out a post along next year with our open benchmark grants where we're not just doing this internally, we're also trying to to support and collaborate with and fund some of the great academic and open source teams working on this kind of evaluation problem. We kind of compiled it into three axes that we think describe some of the big forward directions. So number one is environment or input complexity, number two is autonomy horizon, and number three is output complexity. So in a nutshell, and let's take coding, for example, let's take a programming task or software engineering, kind of more to the point of where the axes lead. Environment complexity is about how much input do you have to take into account, both at the start of a task and as you're doing a task, right? So a simple environment would be, or simple input in environment would be no environment, just here's a competition coding problem, right? Might be one or two sentences. Again, it could be a really, really tough problem, but it's really local context. That's all you need to solve the problem, right? We think one kind of obvious but very critical direction and messy and broad and challenging is making the input in the environment much more complex. So imagine the opposite of that spectrum might be something that a software engineer does at a company where you have to know all these different code bases, internal tools, internal guidelines. You've got JIRA tickets, you've got input on Slack from your PM and business colleagues about design specifications, you have a massive code base to look through, that's an example of a complex input, a complex environment that looks more like the real world, right? So going from a really self-contained written task to a complex environment input that you need to use as context, that we think is one of the most important kind of directions to go. And to be clear, this is the evaluation gap again. People are using agents in these complex settings, but we are not yet really measuring in a scientific way the fullest extent of this kind of axis. So the second axis of autonomy horizon, which is, you know, we could have picked a less fancy name, but really just like number of steps to do a task, right? And then other attributes we kind of lumped into this axis, like a non-stationary, like do the goals change? Our chief scientist, someone in his lab at University of Wisconsin, Fred, put out a benchmark that has an awesome name, a slop code bench.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":40,"time":"14:43","seconds":883,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Oh,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-11-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":41,"time":"14:44","seconds":884,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"[OVERLAP] This is how,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-11-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":42,"time":"14:44","seconds":884,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I've seen that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-11-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":43,"time":"14:45","seconds":885,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"I mean, this is a great name. Academic projects see the name Snorkel should have names like that. But I also do think it kind of almost undersells the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":44,"time":"15:01","seconds":901,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"scope of what that benchmark is tackling, which is the fact that most people when they're coding with a coding agent as a co-pilot or kind of moving autonomously as a full agent, they're gonna be iteratively evolving objectives, right? So this second axis is about how, in the simplest standards, here's a coding challenge question, I'll put a single correct answer that we're gonna unit test, or here's a multiple choice medical question or legal question, I'll put A, B, C, or D. Multi-step is one where you have to, you know, have multiple turns with the user to maybe take into account shifting specifications and objectives, multiple steps of reasoning, multiple steps of tool use, et cetera, right? So obviously this kind of like horizon of how many steps are needed is one that many people are talking about. These long horizon tasks are becoming more common. but really measuring it to the length of a real-world task is still at the frontier. And you can see there are very few benchmarks, publicly at least, that test this. Most of them are very much unsaturated. And I think there's a lot left to do to really scientifically and comprehensively probe that one. And the third one is output complexity, which is, you know, when you're outputting a really complex output, it makes the evaluation of that output even more complex. So let's go back to that simple example of a coding challenge question, or let's take any of it like a math question. Okay, here's a super tough math question. Everything you need to know is one paragraph. So super, no environment, super simple context. And then the output is A, B, C, or D, or it's a single number. Well, that's really easy to check. You just check it against the answer key. But what about a deep legal research output where it's a 30-page PDF with 50 citations? How do you verify if that's good or not? you know, that's tough for humans to do, right? So that is another direction, one of the third major directions that we're seeing a real evaluation gap, but also, you know, a lot of work to close that gap. This is where you hear people talk about rubrics that kind of, you know, list out all these different kind of ways to check if the answer was correct. for human or automated validation. This could be encoding settings, not just unit tests, but also style checks or, you know, milestone objectives, et cetera. So anyway, I went on long, but I guess to summarize, you know, this evaluation gap we think has kind of these three major axes, and this is both kind of, you know, complexity of environment input, autonomy horizon, and complexity of output. These are things where you know, we're improving AI agent capabilities, but we need to catch up on, you know, being able to measure precisely for these types of tasks. And we're behind.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":45,"time":"17:58","seconds":1078,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, we need to be able to tell what's working because not only will it inform our ability to actually ship things to production instead of having them be held back, as I'm sure many of us have experienced with agent demos, but also it's going to inform heavily how we build our next layer. How do we iterate? How do we actually explore this space? What do we need to do better? And a big element of Snorkel's approach to this is this Open Benchmarks grant program we've mentioned a couple times. Can you tell us a bit more about what you're looking for from that program and what it is?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":46,"time":"18:31","seconds":1111,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"Yeah, so we're super excited about this. This is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":47,"time":"18:36","seconds":1116,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"[OVERLAP] basically a grants program for teams that are working on these benchmarks in open public settings that address... We're very interested in anything that pushes the frontier on one of these three major axes, but we're also open to all kinds of other ideas that we haven't thought of yet in terms of just building new benchmarks in some open source way. So we put up $3 million to start in terms of initial funding. We're hoping to significantly increase the grant as we proceed this year. And we're super excited. We'll have more announcements soon, but this is the kind of thing that's led us to have great collaborations with the Terminal Bench team on T-Bench 2.0, for example. I guess there are a bunch of others that we'll announce imminently, so I'll hold my tongue there, but just some really, really cool projects. And we think that it's really important to push this you know, closes the valuation gap. And one component of that is with these, you know, open public benchmarks that we think really serve as transparent guideposts for the field. Now, I will note, public benchmarks are not the only tool. And you see almost some like, you know, there's almost a backlash against some public benchmarks. And if you've seen the term benchmarking, maybe I'm spending way","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-15-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":48,"time":"20:07","seconds":1207,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Oh,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-15-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":49,"time":"20:07","seconds":1207,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"[OVERLAP] too much","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-15-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":50,"time":"20:07","seconds":1207,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] yes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-15-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":51,"time":"20:08","seconds":1208,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"[OVERLAP] time on the nerdiest","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-15-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":52,"time":"20:09","seconds":1209,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] No,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-15-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":53,"time":"20:09","seconds":1209,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"[OVERLAP] corner of","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-15-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":54,"time":"20:09","seconds":1209,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":55,"time":"20:10","seconds":1210,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"X. And this idea that people kind of overfitting to benchmarks and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":56,"time":"20:19","seconds":1219,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"it's like, okay, studying for the test versus actually learning the subject. And look, the thing I would say about that is that, I mean, this should be kind of obvious, but like the fact that people overdo and overfit to something does not diminish its value as a tool. So we are full-throated believers that these benchmarks are critical. especially out in the open for pushing the field forward, they just obviously can't be the only tool. You need to measure in a number of ways, use case specific, private benchmarks, public benchmarks, but they are a critical piece of publicly measuring and inspecting where does AI work first not, and where is the next frontier to build along.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":57,"time":"21:48","seconds":1308,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Talk to me about how this benchmark approach, which I agree, I think it's important to have public benchmarks. I love that there is a consortium that is pushing for more open benchmarks. But how does this track back to like the original vision of Snorkel and this idea of data centric AI? You know, you have this through line I can see of, OK, we want measurement to be clear. We want to enable progress. But when you started, data-centric AI was barely a term. And now you've kind of expanded it. And yet at NeurIPS last year, there was an entire section of the conference floor dedicated to it. What's changed about how the field thinks about data during your time in it? And where do you see the conventional wisdom still being wrong?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":58,"time":"22:33","seconds":1353,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"Yeah. So I guess I'll go back to the beginning. It's been a long journey at Snorkel, and it's only just getting started. I think","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":59,"time":"22:44","seconds":1364,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"what we're doing today is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":60,"time":"22:51","seconds":1371,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"[OVERLAP] quite a bit different than what we were doing when we started. The through line is data. I mean, we've We're quite excited about the kind of work I was describing of all the data environment development and benchmark development. And commercially, or in terms of top line, by end of quarter, we'll grow at about 10x over the last eight or nine months, so we're excited. But it is quite a journey from kind of where we started, which was, to your point, very much around data labeling and this initial idea of data-centric AI. But actually, a lot of that is completely carried through. So let me go back to that. When we started, I mean, we started, this is gonna now make me sound like the least cool of dinosaurs and I'll never get invited to San Francisco AI","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-21-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":61,"time":"23:38","seconds":1418,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] You","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-21-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":62,"time":"23:38","seconds":1418,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"[OVERLAP] parties","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-21-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":63,"time":"23:38","seconds":1418,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] did mention","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-21-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":64,"time":"23:38","seconds":1418,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"[OVERLAP] ever again.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-21-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":65,"time":"23:39","seconds":1419,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] the 80s","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-21-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":66,"time":"23:39","seconds":1419,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-21-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":67,"time":"23:39","seconds":1419,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] earlier, so...","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-21-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":68,"time":"23:41","seconds":1421,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"[OVERLAP] I already mentioned the 80s. You know, I had a birthday a month or so back on my daughter, who's six, guessed that I might be 103. I'm really, you know, which is very cute. So we've been working in this area for almost 15 years. So when we were starting back in our co-founder Chris Reis lab at Stanford, and this is when I was starting my PhD, the idea of working on something involving data in an AI lab was not at all on the table. I remember one of my buddies, still a great friend, kind of taking me aside and saying, are you sure you want to work on data in an AI lab? You're never going to publish as an academic. Because that's how data was viewed back then. It was, I mean, you know, at the time, you know, we were talking about machine learning, machine learning still technically being the subset of AI that we're all working in. Definitionally, all the people just started saying AI because it's,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-21-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":69,"time":"24:43","seconds":1483,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Just","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-21-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":70,"time":"24:43","seconds":1483,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"[OVERLAP] you","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-21-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":71,"time":"24:43","seconds":1483,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] don't","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-21-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":72,"time":"24:43","seconds":1483,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"[OVERLAP] know,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-21-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":73,"time":"24:43","seconds":1483,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] call it that anymore.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-21-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":74,"time":"24:45","seconds":1485,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"[OVERLAP] yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-21-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":75,"time":"24:45","seconds":1485,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-21-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":76,"time":"24:46","seconds":1486,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"But, you know, basically that means, you know, automation AI that is learned from data. So obviously data was always important. But the preparation, the creation, the curation, the labeling of that data when we started was viewed as upstream, it was viewed as janitorial, it was viewed as not our problem. And I think there was some work that was starting to emphasize how important it was, like the work of Fei-Fei Li on ImageNet and other data sets. people were beginning to realize, hey, the data actually, like, leaps forward in the data actually move the field more than leaps forward in the algorithm or the model architecture, et cetera. But still, it was not the subject that people thought of as part of AI and part of how you do AI. So we started, you know, and we were always very kind of, you know, quote-unquote, customer-centric. And this, back then, it was with our academic, you know, medical, you know, nonprofit collaborators at the lab. we started just realizing that every time we come with a new fancy algorithm, a new fancy model architecture, look, I have this nicely theoretically bounded joint Markov inference, something, something. And they'd be like, yeah, we don't really care, but could you help us label the data? Because that's what's blocking us. So that was kind of the first inkling of that. And the more we got in, you know, down that rabbit hole of saying, hey, why don't we try to work on helping with the data problem? And at the same time, also, you know, deep learning was just starting to become a thing. We're seeing these increasingly powerful, but black box model architectures, increasingly powerful, increasingly standardized or black box. We started to come up with this hypothesis that, hey, maybe data is actually gonna shift from being this kind of upstream, not our problem thing, to being the complete epicenter of AI development. And that's kind of where the world is today, more than we ever could have imagined. Like 95% of teams, I don't know what the right stat is, but something like that, whether it's at a frontier lab or at an enterprise, in an enterprise use case setting, If you want your model to do something different, you don't go and perform brain surgery on the neurons. You don't reinvent the architecture of the algorithm. You don't say, hey, I want my coding agent to be better at COBOL and hospital systems. Let me go and invent a new post-transformer architecture. No, you get data. You get data to help you measure where it's falling short, and then you get data or environments to help tune it to be better. So this idea of data being the primary tool for developing AI, back then, 15 years ago, it was a very out there concept, but we started talking about it as data-centric AI development. This idea that everything's important, but if deep learning and LLMs and everything that we were seeing germinate starts to take off, our hypothesis was that the data was going to be not just a limiting reagent or bottleneck, but actually the center of how you develop AI. Measure, monitor, improve. And that kind of is where the world's gone. So that's kind of like the through line. And we started off on data labeling. Data labeling is still a huge part of what we do. And that may not sound intuitive right away, but when you're building a","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":77,"time":"28:05","seconds":1685,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"coding agent data set, let's say, you have to do a lot of data generation, you have to do a lot of environment generation, you have to do a lot of curation. But almost like 40, 50% of the time that goes into creating a data point or an environment, at least at the quality bar that we hit, which we know is uniquely high, but is the one that's valued by our customers, goes into review. and quality control, which is basically labeling. You take all the outputs and you're just trying to check them if they meet the unique spec for the benchmark or data set you're building. And so actually, not only has that through line of data being the center of how you build AI, kind of carried throughout the 15 years of the academic projects and the last six years of the company, Actually, a lot of the labeling work, along with many, many other pieces that go into it, has remained a key part of our data factory, so to speak.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":78,"time":"29:05","seconds":1745,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"What does the next build out for that data factory look like? Because I think a lot of folks are familiar with this idea of data labeling, and many of my listeners have probably been quite involved in it. But there is a new era that feels like it's dawning around how we're going to be providing data to the next stage of AI development.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":79,"time":"29:26","seconds":1766,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, I mean, we've been using this phrase for kind of this next phase, it's kind of like the expert-agentic phase, because if you look at both the capabilities and then the corresponding data that you need to measure, or evaluate, and then improve, tune, reinforce, and learn, et cetera, models in this upcoming setting, a lot of it is about expertise. It's not just 15 seconds per click, query the crowd anymore. It's law, finance, gardening, woodworking, coding. I mean, the surface area is immense, and it's only gonna grow as we try to use AI in literally every part of life to improve and accelerate. But it's some kind of expertise, and it's also increasingly agentic, which is, again, that more complex input, complex output interaction, not just a prompt and a response. So that's the kind of data, and I say data, but I mean data and environments. People talk about RL environments, and I'm kind of blurring those together, because they kind of go together in a payload. I think it's a false dichotomy, which I could separately get into, but I'll say data and environment development. That's kind of where it's aimed. And I'd say at a high level, and this is also a through line throughout all of our last 15 years of research and development, The key idea, and this may sound stupidly simple, but it's really just this idea that you can't just throw people at it if you wanna hit the scale and quality and complexity that moves the field forward, but you also can't just use push-button automation. You have to have sophisticated ways of having kind of human or expert in the loop, but AI-accelerated processes for all of the core operations of generating data, generating environments, curating those, reviewing those, et cetera. And this is really the core of our research over the last 15 plus years. And so I know that's a simple idea, but just to double click on this, the way that the data industry worked, and if you look at the legacy players out there that we're replacing in commercial settings, they all started around these tasks that were like, let's build up this massive network of hundreds of thousands of millions of people we can throw a picture of a traffic light and they'll label green or red, or pedestrian or car, or this LLM response sounds good or sounds bad. That era is done, that data is not valuable anymore. The frontier for the next five, 10, 15, whatever years, as far as I'll dare to predict in this crazy world, is all but expert agentic data where you need You need, like in the Harvey example, a lawyer to sit down for 10, 15 hours if they're doing it by hand and probe this very counterintuitive, jagged frontier where even the experts may not guess correctly on their own where the model's gonna have trouble, right? So throwing humans at it is just not enough. Even the smartest humans in the world, it just doesn't hit that bar. If you look at the other extreme though, You know, I've worked in the field academically and commercially of synthetic data for, yeah, almost 15 years at this point. And, you know, it never ceases to amaze me how often you still have these kind of like snake eating its own tail free energy machine pitches of like, oh, we'll just ask the LLM to generate its own data. Self-supervision, we can go into the weeds in this one optionally, but there are valid cases where you just use Nellon to generate data. One of those is called distillation, where you're using a bigger model to train a smaller model. There's an idea, a very old topic called self-supervision that can help a little bit. But by and large, the basic intuition is like, you can't go, you know, hey, student, here's a subject matter that you have no knowledge in. Like, maybe I'm gonna get this wrong, because I don't know your background, Conor, but like, hey, Conor, you don't know anything about like ancient Sumerian theology, but can you just write yourself","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-24-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":80,"time":"33:50","seconds":2030,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] You","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-24-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":81,"time":"33:50","seconds":2030,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"[OVERLAP] a curriculum","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-24-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":82,"time":"33:50","seconds":2030,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] would be surprised actually.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-24-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":83,"time":"33:51","seconds":2031,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"Okay, so I picked wrong, but, you know,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":84,"time":"33:56","seconds":2036,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"okay, Alex, you don't know about ancient Sumerian theology. I have no idea why that pops into my head, and I miraculously got it wrong here. I'm going to ask you more about that at some other time. You know, go write a curriculum, go write some test questions, go teach it to yourself. That's not going to yield good results. So you can't just say, hey, LM, go generate your own data and teach yourself. You're not going to fill the blind spots. That data does not have value. The data only has value if there's some human expertise, some new expertise getting put in, but you can't just throw humans at it. So the whole game, and this has been our kind of research area from another angle for 15 plus years, is how do you put human experts in the center, but accelerate every single part of this data environment kind of factory so they can be more effective, higher quality, et cetera. So that's what we work on in a nutshell.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":85,"time":"34:54","seconds":2094,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Well, okay. Okay. You, before I, I sidebar us here, um, you, you had a couple of really interesting statements, um, that I want to double click on. So, so one, you mentioned that there is a perceived. Or that you perceive there to be a false dichotomy between environment and data in these conversations. Can you tell me more about your viewpoint there?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":86,"time":"35:14","seconds":2114,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"Yeah, I mean, I think,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":87,"time":"35:17","seconds":2117,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"so here's why I think it's a bit of a false dichotomy is that, first of all, I think, you know, almost everything that we're producing, not everything, but quite a large portion of the kind of frontier of data and environments is gonna be both. So, you know, we do a lot of volume of stuff that we're not specifically producing environment, but I just think in general, you know, the more agentic stuff is, meaning the more that you're trying to build, you're trying to help with evaluation and tuning of agents that interact with an environment, the more that an environment is just kind of part of it. And when you have an environment, you also have what we traditionally would call data. So some of this is just, imagine let's just use a metaphor that is not really even a metaphor, but just imagine like a standardized test, like the SAT or something. That's where we were like a year or two ago, like multiple choice questions, right? And so what did you need for a full data payload to evaluate or teach a model? You needed a bunch of questions, you needed the answer key. That was kind of it, right? Questions, answers.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":88,"time":"36:28","seconds":2188,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"What the tests look like today is more like, you know, and this is again, this is not even a metaphor, because this is literally what we're producing, but I'll still talk about like the student setting. Like, it's basically these tasks, like go use the library computer to look up whatever references you need, and then write this book report. That's kind of like the metaphor for the Harvey task that we were talking about, right? And so what do you need? What is the payload for one of those task questions now? For either evaluation or for tuning, inclusive of RL? Well, you need an environment, which in this case is the desk with the library computer.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":89,"time":"37:12","seconds":2232,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"that's the environment. But you also need the task itself of what you're trying to write the book report on and what themes you're supposed to be expounding on. That's often called the task, but that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":90,"time":"37:26","seconds":2246,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Ancient Sumerian","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-31-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":91,"time":"37:27","seconds":2247,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"[OVERLAP] was what","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-31-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":92,"time":"37:27","seconds":2247,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] theology, obviously.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-31-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":93,"time":"37:28","seconds":2248,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-31-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":94,"time":"37:28","seconds":2248,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-31-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":95,"time":"37:29","seconds":2249,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"yeah, yeah. Ancient Sumerian theologians are like, you know, go answer Conor's question that Alex didn't even parse well enough to regurgitate here about ancient and write a report on this with at least five citations. That's what we traditionally call data because that's a task. So you have the environment, which is the library computer and the desk and the pencil. You have the question. You now also need a rubric, which is another thing you see often in the space, which is just the grading guidelines. Maybe you have a reference answer of here's a great book report, but then you need a rubric because you can't just say, does A equals B, you need to actually check, you have to have a detailed grading rubric for how to grade it. And then you need to have graders, which are often called verifiers. So, you know, that's the payload. It's the task of what you're supposed to do. It's the environment within which you do it, including tools and even simulated user personas, if part of the task is going back and forth with a simulated or with a human. So you need the task, you need the environment, you need the potentially the reference answer, you need the rubric or the grading kind of guidelines, and you need the grader or the verifier. That's the full package. So whether you call that an environment, or you call that data plus an environment, or you call it data, like it's kind of semantics. And so this dichotomy of like, which I think is kind of marketing of like, data is dead, now it's all about environments, to me, exposes that. I mean, look, like, I'll try to make this a little spicy, because we're getting towards the end, and we may have already lost half the viewership with the ancient Sumerian detour, like, A lot of the companies out there that are creating an environment, like a CRM clone or something, they don't really understand how AI works. They hack something up, they sell it to 10 labs, they annualize the number, they go raise a series A. and they say, oh, we're not like data, we're an environment company, because they just don't actually understand how AI works. The reality is the full package, whether you're producing it as a vendor or not, but the full valuable package is the two combined. And candidly, when they're not combined, it's not that useful, because you design the task based on the environment, and you design the environment based on the task if you're doing it right. So we're, you know, maybe it's a little pedantic, but we're big believers that the two kind of are part of one holistic thing, that if you do it right, has to be developed together.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":96,"time":"40:05","seconds":2405,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, I think a good example to mention here is DoorDash. They recently announced in March that they are creating a massive data gathering operation. They have a separate app called Tasks now, where they are paying their dashers to collect real-world audio, video, photo data","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-32-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":97,"time":"40:25","seconds":2425,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"[OVERLAP] Yep.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-32-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":98,"time":"40:25","seconds":2425,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] to train AI and robotic systems, particularly about how to navigate the real world. And to Alex's point earlier about experts, we may not think of dashers as experts but if you think about dashers as as in navigating environment doing these tasks they are experts for those tasks they are experts in navigating an environment that robots have not truly learned how to navigate yet and so it's going to be really interesting to see how all these different data approaches come together. And I think every company that has scale right now is looking to see how can I leverage the data or how can I create better data to fuel this next layer of innovation and agentic systems. Alex, it's been such a fun conversation. I know we didn't quite get as much time as we hoped for, so hopefully we'll have you back sometime later this year or some other time. But it's been fantastic chatting with you, and I'll make sure we get some time for Ancient Sumerian next time as well, though","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-32-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":99,"time":"41:17","seconds":2477,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-32-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":100,"time":"41:17","seconds":2477,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I don't speak the language at all, to be clear.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-32-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":101,"time":"41:20","seconds":2480,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"[OVERLAP] well, Conor, I really appreciate being on and I really appreciate the great conversation. And I have my homework before that next conversation. So I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-32-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":102,"time":"41:30","seconds":2490,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] You","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-32-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":103,"time":"41:31","seconds":2491,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"[OVERLAP] know","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-32-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
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{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":105,"time":"41:31","seconds":2491,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"[OVERLAP] I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-32-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":106,"time":"41:31","seconds":2491,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] be more of an expert","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-32-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":107,"time":"41:31","seconds":2491,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"[OVERLAP] got to get","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-32-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
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{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":109,"time":"41:32","seconds":2492,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"[OVERLAP] to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-32-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":110,"time":"41:32","seconds":2492,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] then.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-32-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":111,"time":"41:32","seconds":2492,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"[OVERLAP] work","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-32-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":112,"time":"41:32","seconds":2492,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-32-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":113,"time":"41:32","seconds":2492,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"[OVERLAP] on.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-32-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":114,"time":"41:32","seconds":2492,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"have limited knowledge, admittedly, so.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":115,"time":"41:35","seconds":2495,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"Well, this is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":116,"time":"41:36","seconds":2496,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] It","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-34-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":117,"time":"41:36","seconds":2496,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"[OVERLAP] awesome. Thank you so much.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-34-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":118,"time":"41:37","seconds":2497,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] was my pleasure. And where should folks go to check you out and follow your work or follow Snorkel's work?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-34-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":119,"time":"41:42","seconds":2502,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, I mean, snorkel.ai is the website. You can follow me on X. It will be exactly as nerdy and AI data focused as this, but that also links to some of the work that our research team does out in the open, some of the research work that we collaborate with and fund. So yeah, that'll probably be the best place to look. I'm excited to engage with any","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-34-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":120,"time":"42:05","seconds":2525,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, hopefully some listeners go create their own open benchmarks and apply for a grant or at least reach out to you on X. And Alex, just thanks again for joining us. Listeners, if you enjoyed this conversation, be sure to like and subscribe wherever you are. And make sure while you're at it that you've subscribed to our newsletter at newsletter.chainofthought.show. Alex, thanks again for coming on. It's been fantastic chatting with you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-34-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai","episode":57,"guid":"c2cfe57e-f3f6-41ac-9f8e-b25e683a1d05","episodeTitle":"Every AI Agent Has an Evaluation Gap | Alex Ratner, Snorkel AI","publishedAt":"2026-04-29","segmentIndex":121,"time":"42:28","seconds":2548,"speaker":"Alex Ratner","text":"[OVERLAP] Conor, thanks so much for having me.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/57-every-ai-agent-has-an-evaluation-gap-alex-ratner-snorkel-ai/#t-34-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"Normal SDLC is dead in the agentic world. The new world is here and the new world is just forming. And the only way you keep up with this and you subscribe to the speed is the boat moto, right? You've got to run. You just got to run faster than, you know, what's trying to catch up.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:21","seconds":21,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Welcome back to Chain of Thought, everyone. I am your host once again, Conor Bronsdon, Head of Technical Ecosystem at Modular. My guest today is someone that you may be familiar with if you have been listening to Chain of Thought for a while, and that is Anush Elangovan, Corporate VP of AI Software at AMD. I'm delighted to have him back with us. Anush, as many of you know, founded Nod.ai, where his team built Shark and became a primary contributor to Torch ML IR. And when AMD acquired Nod in, what, 2023? God, three years ago now, Anush began leading AI software strategy across the company's full silicon portfolio. Before Nod, he had shipped the graphics stack on the first arm. Chromebook, he helped lead Chrome OS migration. He's been building at the intersection of compilers, hardware, and AI for over two decades, and his coding more than ever today with the help of AI agents, which I'm sure he's very excited to talk about. Many of you may know him for going viral for building a pure Python AMD GPU user space drive with Claude Code without opening an editor once, which I'm sure we'll talk a bit about. And as anyone who has listened to him before may know, he will probably tell us that speed is the moat and we need to use our agents to accelerate ourselves because they are a great equalizer in software today. In fact, as we're recording this today, we are seeing that play out with Claude Code's internal source code leaking out into the internet and people rebuilding it with their agents rapidly into Rust, into Python, and changing that TypeScript package. It's going to be a fascinating few months and with Anush running six or more AI coding agents in parallel at once, generating 250,000 lines of code in a single week, like I think many of us are starting to do. And as he said, consuming 4.2 billion tokens weekly, he is rewriting, like I think many of us are, 25 year old projects overnight. Anush is so good to see you. Welcome back to Chain of Thought.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-0-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":2,"time":"2:22","seconds":142,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] Great to be here. Glad to have this conversation. Super excited to talk about all of the AI impact that's having on our software development methodologies and just people in general.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-0-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":3,"time":"2:35","seconds":155,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Oh my goodness, it is a crazy time. It is bedlam","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-0-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":4,"time":"2:38","seconds":158,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-0-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":5,"time":"2:38","seconds":158,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"out there. I know you and I talked, what, eight months ago now at this point, something like that. And I think we kind of talked, oh, well, we'll, we'll talk in a year, see where things are. And well, there's a reason we've had to shorten that timeframe because there is a lot going on. And one of the ways you can protect yourself from everything going on is with our presenting sponsor, Galileo for reliable AI evals and guardrails. Maybe you don't want your source code to leak, uh, to leak onto the internet. Well, maybe check them out at Galileo.ai. But we're not talking about guardrails today. We are talking about how to go fast. And we may talk guardrails and testing a little bit. So what happens when a VP of AI software and a major chip company goes all in on AI agents for his own team's work? And what does that reveal about where software development is actually heading? Anush, you told me before this call that you've been generating 250,000 lines of code a week with AI agents. And obviously lines of code isn't a metric of success, but as an indicator of throughput. Walk me through what your typical day looks like, given that I expect you are in meetings all day, you are a CBP at AMT, and it sounds like you have a bunch of agents running in parallel.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":6,"time":"3:43","seconds":223,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"That's right, Conor. You know, I feel like AI agents and agentic coding has given me 20 years back in my career, right? That's how I feel. Last night, I had a little... Of course, it's all through Claude Code or Codex, right? I'm just like, okay, just look at my GitHub and tell me all the commits, per month commits. And March ending today is the largest number of code that I've ever generated in my entire life since like, you know, GitHub signed up in 2007 or something, right? And it is fascinating because I generated all that code without opening the editor once. And it is about how you frame the problem, how you understand the harness that you're setting up. And then it is just The first principle of engineering is still there, it's just that you're not manually doing it. It's like suddenly you've brought in an excavator when we've been using sticks and stones to dig holes, and suddenly someone shows up with a big excavator and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":7,"time":"4:59","seconds":299,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":8,"time":"5:00","seconds":300,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] four arms and they're just like going","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-3-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":9,"time":"5:02","seconds":302,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] You're like,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-3-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":10,"time":"5:03","seconds":303,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] at it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-3-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":11,"time":"5:03","seconds":303,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] how much dirt we just pull out here? What the heck? Yeah. What do we do with","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-3-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":12,"time":"5:06","seconds":306,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] Exactly.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-3-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":13,"time":"5:06","seconds":306,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] it all? We don't even know yet.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-3-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":14,"time":"5:09","seconds":309,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"But now you need to plan because you're like, oh, if I start digging this, I'm going to get rid of this whole hill over here. You're thinking of the next level of what is the outcome, then like, OK, I need to shovel this thing of sand from here to here is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":15,"time":"5:25","seconds":325,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] No,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-4-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":16,"time":"5:25","seconds":325,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] what","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-4-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":17,"time":"5:25","seconds":325,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I'm","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-4-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":18,"time":"5:25","seconds":325,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] you could.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-4-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":19,"time":"5:25","seconds":325,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] following this. We're changing","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-4-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":20,"time":"5:26","seconds":326,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-4-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":21,"time":"5:26","seconds":326,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] the software landscape to your point. We're not just changing the build site. You know, all that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-4-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":22,"time":"5:31","seconds":331,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] That's right.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-4-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":23,"time":"5:32","seconds":332,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"code has to go somewhere.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":24,"time":"5:33","seconds":333,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"Exactly, exactly. And I can give you an overview of things that I'm working on. They're very complex projects. I have a full GPU, virtual GPU ISA simulator written. I rewrote Slurm called Spur in Rust just because I wanted to have a modern, scalable thing. And it set up the CI, CD. It's running across multiple clusters. Now we are deployed in production internally. Then I did this ISA rewriter so that you can on the fly target different GPUs, right? So that you can start from an RDNA and target the cDNA, start from a cDNA and target the RDNA, but still keep the application the same. And I can keep going. There's like six such projects that are, if I were to plan it, you know, pre-December last year, I'd be like, oh, that takes six months. Actually, there was a case where the user space driver, it was like, oh, if we were to rewrite it, it's like six people over six months and 2 million in hardware. All I had was like Claude Code and a virtual machine rig, which could power up Windows and Linux. And it just, you know, came up with a plan and we just went, you know, executed through the whole thing. And now we have a full open source Windows device driver, WDDM driver that, you know, that's just it. It was not possible even in December. It would have been like, oh, two years to get someone to write a Windows driver, not even going to attempt it. Now it's like, if there is a problem, the first thing I like, my notepad is Claude Code. My notepad is like when someone tells me I have to do something or I would like to do this or something, I actually type it into Claude Code to just be like, okay, go ahead. implemented because the time it takes for humans to like come to an agreement, you may have already implemented all the options that the humans are going to discuss. And then you just start with like, okay, which one do you pick?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":25,"time":"7:34","seconds":454,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So, uh, how many instances are you running right now while we're on this podcast together? Because I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":26,"time":"7:39","seconds":459,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] I have.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-7-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":27,"time":"7:39","seconds":459,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] heard a little ping there that I recognize. I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-7-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":28,"time":"7:42","seconds":462,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"Oh, you heard the pig outside.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":29,"time":"7:44","seconds":464,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] forgot to ask you to mute your notifications. So","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-8-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":30,"time":"7:46","seconds":466,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] Sorry,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-8-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":31,"time":"7:46","seconds":466,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I'm.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-8-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":32,"time":"7:46","seconds":466,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] I don't know. That wasn't supposed to lead to, but I'm going to. There are literally six. Actually, one, two, three, four, five in one system, three in another, and then two on my Mac. It's got 10, 12 agents. And these are like the main agents, right? And then they have sub-agents","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-8-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":33,"time":"8:09","seconds":489,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] how many","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-8-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":34,"time":"8:10","seconds":490,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-8-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":35,"time":"8:10","seconds":490,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] sub-agents","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-8-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":36,"time":"8:10","seconds":490,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] are,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-8-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":37,"time":"8:11","seconds":491,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] are they spawning, yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-8-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":38,"time":"8:11","seconds":491,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] and they're like, you know, like for the GPU simulator, emulator that are writing fully open source, you can model ISAs. It's modeling transpiling between GFX 1250 to GFX 950, you know, different ones, and each one is a sub-agent, and that agent is just going. All I have is like the numerics you need to check out, and it has a performance guarantee. Within that, it can do whatever it wants. When it's done, I'll go review it and then see it's OK to go or not. But yeah, I have muted my agents now. So I will try to keep the interaction on.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-8-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":39,"time":"8:48","seconds":528,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I have three or four running right now. So I,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":40,"time":"8:50","seconds":530,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] Good,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-9-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":41,"time":"8:50","seconds":530,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I'm, I'm","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-9-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":42,"time":"8:51","seconds":531,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] good,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-9-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":43,"time":"8:51","seconds":531,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] not quite","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-9-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":44,"time":"8:51","seconds":531,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] good,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-9-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":45,"time":"8:51","seconds":531,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] as","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-9-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":46,"time":"8:51","seconds":531,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] good.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-9-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":47,"time":"8:51","seconds":531,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] many as you at the moment, but,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-9-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":48,"time":"8:53","seconds":533,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] Isn't","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-9-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":49,"time":"8:53","seconds":533,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] uh,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-9-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":50,"time":"8:53","seconds":533,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] this","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-9-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":51,"time":"8:53","seconds":533,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I understand.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-9-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":52,"time":"8:53","seconds":533,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] like,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-9-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":53,"time":"8:54","seconds":534,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-9-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":54,"time":"8:54","seconds":534,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] what is the new word, token maxing?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-9-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":55,"time":"8:57","seconds":537,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yes. I, um, uh, a good, a good friend of mine is, uh, one of the maintainers of open Klan. He was complaining about how he was on a flight for a few hours and he's like, I'm not really able to code effectively here. Cause I just, it's, it's like, I feel like I'm trying to get tokens through a straw here. I can barely do what I need to do. Uh, and yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":56,"time":"9:15","seconds":555,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"So the way I do it is I have a personal tail scale network with head scale set up so that it's my own, you know, VPN setup. And in there, it's just like a redundant power redundant systems with different variations of AMD hardware. And so each agent could like if it's testing windows on RDNA 4, it'll just spin up, it just knows where to log in. And it's geo distributed. So The test bed is set up so that the agents can talk and do whatever it wants to keep the progress going. But then it's still contained in that environment. And then I can review what goes in and out of that enclosure.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":57,"time":"9:57","seconds":597,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So, I mean, obviously this is an incredible throughput, just step change in how much code we were able to generate. But as anyone who ever listened to me on Dev Interrupted knows, lines of code are not necessarily an indicator of successful code. I think that has changed a little bit because if you have good iteration loops in place and you can just keep agents turning in a problem, their ability to effectively refactor and learn from their mistakes means that massive throughput and the increased velocity that can drive, as long as you continually refactor and iterate, will actually start to drive success over time, again, as long as your infrastructure setup is, is well done. But what would you say to folks who basically say, look at this and go, I mean, it's great you're generating that much code, but you know, at what volume does AI generated code become a liability? How do we maintain that?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":58,"time":"10:54","seconds":654,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"Yeah. You know, it's a very, very good question because like, I mean, even since we spoke, I think I said like a week was like 4.2 billion tokens. I just checked this morning, it's like 6.5 billion tokens consumed and lines of code I can't keep track now, right? And it is, so yesterday I was trying to explain the six projects that I had. in one level lower than what I explained to you, right? Like it's like, okay, hey, this is how we are doing this, how we are hooking up the user space to the kernel space, the kernel space, you know, even the firmware loading is going to user space, blah, blah, blah. I took like about 10 minutes and the other person was like, can't drop this, right? So then we were like, okay, you know what? You take your agent, point them to these commits and these planned documents, and let's meet after your agent digests this, right? So that person reached out to like whatever the six repositories, plus the six planned documents, blah, blah, and it generated one PDF that they consumed. I looked at it, that's exactly my vision of what these six projects are doing. they looked at it and they were like, oh, now I get what you're trying to do. And they're generating 100,000 lines of code, too. It's not like they're not, you know, AI native. They're going hard at it. But increasingly, what's going to happen is, it's just, you know, how you review code how you access code, how you do anything with your computer is going to be agentic. And that's a bold statement or a change. In December, my view of agents were like, haha, it's a cron job in a prompt. It's like a prompt in a cron job. That's what I looked at it as. Sure, you can ask it to do something here or there. But now it's gotten to a point where, you know, I have an agent that just monitors the spur issue tracker. So it says any issues someone files, it fixes it, it tests it, deploys it. If CI is green, it'll ship, right? And every commit it makes, it has to write a test to fix that before it's committed. And so I just have some rules like that, right? After that, if it decides that it can't read a 10,000 line file, sure, it can break it up. But if the tests pass, ship it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":59,"time":"13:22","seconds":802,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, I think that is increasingly the philosophy of many projects. And we're seeing this bifurcation between projects that are embracing this philosophy and saying, we are going to continually be churning through code and we are just going to focus on good CICD principles, good architecture, and we're going to have a ton of changes. And I think OpenClaw is probably the biggest example of this, right, where people are just like, yes, we're just constantly refactoring, we're constantly changing. And then you look at projects that are still trying to push back on this and say, oh, we don't want AI-generated code. You know, we're having these extensive reviews. And they are starting to fall behind from a velocity perspective. And I know you have a thesis on this. What's your perspective around velocity in this current era?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":60,"time":"14:12","seconds":852,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"Yeah, so my philosophy is, even before agentic coding, I used to advise people and friends and colleagues, 80% of your time should be spent on tests and writing tests. Even before you write your first line of code, you should have a test framework. What are you going to test? How are you going to do it? And that's just like first principles engineering of like, okay, I want to make sure I've covered everything. Can I, even when you get to hardware, right? Like it's like, I have some I squared C lines. I want to simulate each of that so that the driver is not there. It's not going to die when you fuzz something. Now it's just like 99% of the time is your test bench. even with Claude Code. And so when I start with a plan, I explicitly ask it for like, okay, can we write down more tests? Can we take, you know, like for this ISAR rewriter, right? Like I said, hey, go get all of the data kernels that are pre-compiled and use that as a test set. Every one of them should pass in every case for every commit that you have to make. But if it passes every one of these tests, I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":61,"time":"15:21","seconds":921,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"don't really care if the ability for a human to read takes a lower priority. Yes, of course, at some point, we'll be like, okay, the robots are taking over and we need to go check the code. That's fine. We'll deal with that at that time. But right now, In my personal space, I treat all code like ephemeral. Every line of code is an iteration loop towards where you're going, and you're generating reference points along the line for your agents to learn and for other agents to learn. So if I have written an ISA rewriter now, like for example, yesterday I was implementing, last night actually, Like a couple of weeks as I had with another colleague, we had implemented HIP remote. So you can actually run Rokum on any client, even on a Mac actually. And it will mount a GPU and you can use Rokum across the network and treat it like a local GPU. Of course, modular network latency and bandwidth. So that was a good good project, we were making good progress. And then there was a requirement yesterday to see, OK, hey, we want to use this capability for debug, where we want to capture what goes into the GPU, and we want to replay it on a different system and in the loop and ensure it's OK. Until now, RockM didn't have that capability. Well, until 12 hours ago, it didn't have that capability. And last night, it went to like 3 a.m. But anyway, last night, we were like, okay, here is the pointer to the scratchpad of how HIP remote was written. And that had, you know, how many thousands of lines of code to do remoting of the HIP protocol. But now, learn from it and implement the record and replay protocol. Right. So it could record any GPU, you know, handoff and it could then replay it. And that works now. So now I'm actually one of my agents is generating a random sample of ML workloads, inference workloads, and it's trying to record and replay. And the test set says, record and replay in Linux, in Windows, on X number of machines with different hardware, and ensure all of them pass. And that's your test harness. Now, When it's ready and if someone says, hey, you're doing this silly, you have this, this, this, or you should rewrite in Rust, I literally would be like, take this thing and rewrite in Rust. And all my projects now are written in Rust. You know why?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":62,"time":"18:06","seconds":1086,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"Because I don't know Rust. Because I never want to know Rust. And I hear good things, but great. Sure, that's my agent's problem. And I'm not opening a file.rs ever. But all my current projects are us projects.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":63,"time":"18:24","seconds":1104,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So am I right to assume that all of these agents are operating in dangerously skip permissions mode?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":64,"time":"18:31","seconds":1111,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] 100%. All","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-18-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":65,"time":"18:32","seconds":1112,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-18-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":66,"time":"18:32","seconds":1112,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] of them","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-18-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":67,"time":"18:32","seconds":1112,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] then,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-18-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":68,"time":"18:32","seconds":1112,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] are","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-18-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":69,"time":"18:33","seconds":1113,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-18-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":70,"time":"18:33","seconds":1113,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"digital treescape permissions.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":71,"time":"18:34","seconds":1114,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"mean, clearly from your tech test harness, you are treating testing as the new code review.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":72,"time":"18:39","seconds":1119,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"Yep, testing is the code review and testing is kind of the gate of your sandbox. If you have a complaint about anything in the box, fix the sandbox, right? Like if you say, hey, this thing is not done right, it's suboptimal, blah, blah, blah, it's fine. It's like, okay, that means your test harness should say there's a performance. metric that says I need to be in my virtual GPU simulator I said each dispatch has to be executed in 50 microseconds right in simulator time or whatever some metric like that. And that's my sandbox, right? So that whenever this agent tries to go make changes, if that test fails, it'll be like, oh, I have to figure out something else because that's a hard requirement, right? And then it'll iterate, it'll refactor. I don't have to tell it when is it time to refactor. I don't have to argue with agents as to when it's time to refactor. Can I maintain the SLA of the dispatch? Can I maintain the correctness of the outcomes? And, you know, can I ship, right? Then refactor is like, okay, whenever the agent feels like it can do that, that's fine.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":73,"time":"19:46","seconds":1186,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Do you think it would be fair to call this agentic, test-driven development or some variation of that?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":74,"time":"19:52","seconds":1192,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"I think it's moving so fast that don't think I have the terms yet for what we're experiencing, but, it's moving so fast that you can't coin something and be like okay you know it's it's normal SDLC is dead right in the agentic world and and the new the new world is here and the new world is just forming so you know there's going to be assumptions and institutional structures that are going to be toned down, which is part of change, right? And the only way","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":75,"time":"20:35","seconds":1235,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"you keep up with this and you subscribe to the speed is the motor, right? You've got to run, you just got to run faster than what's trying to catch up.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":76,"time":"20:44","seconds":1244,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So if I'm an engineering leader or an engineer who's listening to this and I'm using AI, but maybe it's not at the speed that you're describing, how do I take that next step to truly running, as you put it?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":77,"time":"21:04","seconds":1264,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"I see an engineer aspect to this, which is how do you move fast? How do you learn the new craft? How are you going to give in your shovels and start learning how to drive this excavator? So that's a skill that we have to invest time. And there's no other way than time. It literally has to be hands on keyboard. You know spend time like I started with two hours on a Sunday for this in December And and so I would highly encourage everyone in the space whether you're an IC or a manager manager or leader to spend the time yourself because Just yesterday I taught my HR partner how to use Claude Code and he's now fixing engineering issues. I was like, what? So his agent is like, when I'm not doing my HR work, I think I need to send my agent towards fixing some bugs. I was like, great. you know, the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":78,"time":"22:04","seconds":1324,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Amazing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-26-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":79,"time":"22:04","seconds":1324,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] great equalizer of, you know, like, and traditionally this would have been like, oh, no, you're an HR person, why are you doing this? Talk to the manager who's going to do that. And then the manager will be like, I have a nine month plan that's going to be implemented in 12 months. And, you know, so there's going to be the IC angle. So for the ICs and, you know, the engineer and you, You just have to go founder mode for your own skills development. You just go in, learn what this thing is. There is no other way. Nobody's going to teach you what this is, right? It's like pre-internet computers, and suddenly someone's going and showing you Google. It suddenly came from the mainframe to Google, and you're like, what do you mean you sent them an email? I mean, it's that level transformational. So you've got to experience the internet is all I'm saying. Then on the leader's side, there's a responsibility in terms of how you upskill and bring people along for this journey. This transformation is going to be so huge and impactful that we want to make sure we bring as many of us as possible into this. And it could take different amounts of time, but as a leader, we want to learn the trade and then teach the trade or the craft. So you're like, okay, this is how I use agent decoding. So I actually have very, very small sessions with teams that I may not necessarily work with daily, but I reach out and we're like, okay, let's just 10 people. and I show them each one of my agents and I say, okay, you tell me one bug that you're working on. I'm going to help fix that bug for you because I know nothing about that bug, but I know I will fix it by the end of this meeting. And we'll say, okay, great, what platform is it on? What is the ticket number or whatever, right? I'll point it, I'll ask it to download the artifacts and run it and da-da-da. And more often than not, it solves the issue. And then at the end of the meeting, people are like, OK, wait, this thing is like, OK, I need to know what this thing is. It's so transformational. So I think for leaders, you've got to do two things. You've got to first be relevant in the future, which means you've got to upskill yourself. So put your oxygen mask first before you put, you know, try to help someone with your oxygen mask, with their oxygen mask. And then second, you go and make sure you can help everyone learn the new tricks of the trade. And the new tricks are growing day by day and the trade is changing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-26-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":80,"time":"24:51","seconds":1491,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"How do you see it continuing to change as we look to the next couple of months as the acceleration in effect continues, but also potentially tokens get more expensive as we're seeing signals of that maybe something that occurs? What do you think is going to happen?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":81,"time":"25:06","seconds":1506,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"Yeah, I think I don't want to act like an oracle that knows everything. I'm barely in like, okay, I got my bearings on what this thing is and I can deploy it to some level that are like, you know, engineers in our teams that are 10x more throughput and they go to sleep and their tokens are maxed out. So I'm like, okay. So there's another level of unlock that I don't recognize yet. I'm old school in that sense. I have a Byobu terminal with six agents that I'm talking to. Six agents, they have sub-agents. But there are orchestrators and agent things and higher level, intent-driven mechanisms that I haven't yet understood. So to your first question on make a prediction two months from now, I don't know where the industry will be, but I'm going to try to run as fast as possible to be relevant in that industry.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":82,"time":"26:09","seconds":1569,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"The second one is it's Yeah, I think it's similar, right? It's just like it's moving so fast that you really... I don't think you can make a statement on where it's going to be, what we're going to do. It's just soak in and run.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":83,"time":"26:29","seconds":1589,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, I mean, we're seeing these large layoffs at certain orgs, like Block is one great example. I wrote a large essay about that on my sub stack for anyone who wants to check it out. But there is a transformation occurring and orgs are looking for people to be AI native. And if you do not meet that transition, if you do not aligned to it, your skills are not safe in this coming era because of the throughput expectations that are being put out there. And because we're seeing, I mean, CircleCI did some great research on this back in January that refactoring.fm published. I highly recommend Luca's sub stack is on the side. But they talked about the fact that we are seeing this acceleration effect where the top 10% of engineering teams at the time were simply showing this massive gains from AI coding. And then a lot of folks throughout the system were not feeling it because, and this is where you see all these articles about like, oh, you know, a large percent of AI projects aren't delivering yet. And it's because the gains are very unevenly distributed. And I think that's starting to change as it's really becoming obvious to folks who are at all involved with the cutting edge and are cutting up the AI, that these tools are accelerating, the models are getting better, the, the hardnesses are improving. what you're able to do is vastly increased. Like I am a bad engineer. I have never been a full-time engineer. I have been a hobbyist. I've worked with engineers a ton. Uh, and I can now ship projects overnight.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":84,"time":"28:10","seconds":1690,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-30-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":85,"time":"28:10","seconds":1690,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Um, you, as someone with deeper experience, you did a refactor of a 25 year project, uh, with Slurm","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-30-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":86,"time":"28:17","seconds":1697,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] Right,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-30-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":87,"time":"28:18","seconds":1698,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] turning it into Rust,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-30-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":88,"time":"28:18","seconds":1698,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] right, right,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-30-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":89,"time":"28:19","seconds":1699,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] uh, for","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-30-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":90,"time":"28:19","seconds":1699,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] right,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-30-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":91,"time":"28:19","seconds":1699,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Spur. And that's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-30-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":92,"time":"28:21","seconds":1701,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] right.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-30-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":93,"time":"28:21","seconds":1701,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] a, a massive accumulated code base that you rebuilt in a single night. What does that say about how we should be thinking about both the value of software development skills today and the value of legacy codebases?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-30-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":94,"time":"28:34","seconds":1714,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"Yeah, so I think, you know, I'm a big believer in like Jevon's paradox. It's just, it's going to get","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":95,"time":"28:49","seconds":1729,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"There's going to be so much more demand, both in terms of GPU compute, people doing things. We should just embrace that. It's just going to be, everyone's going to want to have this. Just like this example I used for the HR person, their efficiency now has like gone up tenfold probably, right? And he ran into some issue with Claude Code and he had Claude Code fix it. for himself and he was just like, okay, I don't need anything else now, right? I'm self-sufficient with Claude Code. So I think, you know, there's going to be that transformation, but the transformation is also going to unlock so many more opportunities that I'm not worried about it in terms of like, you know, like a loss of jobs or something like that, right? It's more, I think there's going to be so much more to do. And there may be the top end of the K, right? Which will be like, okay, they have taken off, right? Like they'll be generating like 2 million lines of code a day. And they're just like orchestrating agents and agents orchestrating agents. The main thing is they need to be headed towards a goal because they could go off into the wilderness and not show up and they'll just be burning tokens, right? So that's one band. But then there's the mid tier that we want to make sure everyone like the software engineering leaders, et cetera, enable and steer. And they may have a slow movement, but when that transition happens, it'll be fast, right? It'll be, you know, I'm sure we've all noticed the, or at least the older folks like me have noticed like BlackBerry transitions and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":96,"time":"30:36","seconds":1836,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"similar transitions in, where they were like, oh, this is all we did. And I think there was","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":97,"time":"30:47","seconds":1847,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"enough place for the technological innovation to absorb what we can do. And then if you look at it at a meta level, what is happening is we are automating out repetitive, redundant work. that there used to be a huge cognitive overload, right? So if you just look at it from that perspective, it's not like we want all of the engineers to only be in the top band, right? just what normal engineering flow would have been, which is git rebase my 22 patches on a diverged branch. Would have been like, I'm gonna spend two hours, I need to rebase this like halfway through, I rebased it, I rebased it. And then, oh man, this thing doesn't work now. I need to figure out when was the last point at work. And then there's a commit that broke it and that's from somebody else. And I don't have context of what they're doing. Now I got to go learn what they're doing and they changed some underlying API that broke my thing. And now I got to go figure this out. All of that is net","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":98,"time":"31:54","seconds":1914,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"burdensome on a human because they had innovated on something. They just couldn't get the innovation hitched on to the bandwagon. And in the past two, three months, I've never touched Git manually, right? Like, it's just, I just ask God, go to like, okay, rebase this, open up for review. And I look at it as like, okay, fine. Roughly, this is what I want to do. The most time I spend is on the plan document, and the test harness. And everything in between is like, I treat it like this. That's V1. Sure, we'll do V2. Update the client, update the test, right? V3, right? So even if you look at it as efficiency improvements for","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":99,"time":"32:37","seconds":1957,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"developers, that's going to be huge, right? It's not that they even have to do multi-agent, some crazy flows or anything like that. make their life easier. So there's a lot that's going to touch everyone and it'll be exciting.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":100,"time":"32:55","seconds":1975,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Thanks to Galileo for sponsoring this episode. Their new 165-page comprehensive guide to mastering multi-agent systems is freely available on their website at galileo.ai and provides you the lens you need to understand when multi-agent systems add value versus single-agent approaches, how to design them efficiently, and how to build reliable systems that work in production. Download it for free at the link in the show description to discover how to continuously improve for your AI agents, identify and avoid common coordination pitfalls, master context engineering for agent collaboration, measure performance with multi-agent metrics, and much more. Yeah, you mentioned when things go wrong in that answer too. And I'd be curious to get your perspective here because we've talked a lot about the successes and what's possible here. And you brought up refactoring and we've talked about that a bit already, but I think back to, God, was it 18 months ago now or something when there was this big article from Amazon saying, oh, we've done all this refactoring with our, you know, Amazon Q tool. And part of that was obviously marketing for Amazon Q. But I think at that time, folks were kind of like, oh, no way. Like, you know, we're kind of pooh-poohing this. And now, you know, we're a year plus on, and this is just obvious. Like, of course that's possible. You can do that in an evening now. You can do that in a couple hours","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":101,"time":"34:24","seconds":2064,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-37-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":102,"time":"34:24","seconds":2064,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] to get clogged code and port it into a new language so you can try to keep it up in a GitHub repo. And yet there are plenty of examples where AI goes off the rails or spins off in the wrong direction. How do you account for that? And what do you do when mistakes are made?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-37-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":103,"time":"34:43","seconds":2083,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"It's a very, very good question. This is the part where where we want to separate out just agentic prompting and the craft of coding or engineering something with the assist of an agentic layer. So what I mean by that is, I could go in, if I didn't have any priors, I would just go in and say, implement the HIP remote protocol, right? And it may ask me some things where I'm like, I don't know. I just want to run my Roku maps on my Mac. That's my high level, right? And then it's going to say something, something, here's an example. And if you're not dialed into what those are, you could diverge so much that you may burn tokens in the evaluation. And it may be so broad a search space that you may not converge on a solution that you're looking for, right? versus if I did it in a way that I could tap into the experience of like, oh, I've spent time building this, looking at this, and I say, hey, scope it narrowly. All I want is a network wire transport protocol and a shim layer that shows that the HIP layer works on the MAC side. And let's start with tests to make sure, you know, A, B, C work, and then there is a few other things. For example, I was doing something with XNAC, which is like demand paging on GPUs. I was like, hey, just write, Claude was like, I'm going to go implement the feature and do everything, right? I was like, hold on, hold on, hold on. I want you to sit down and write, I literally said, write 100 tests that test various combinations of demand paging where there's like corner cases, this case, that case, this case. It came up with literally 100 cases. Some of them are repetitive. It changed some parameters. It didn't really change the test as much, but there were 100 tests. When I looked at the test, I was like, okay, if this thing passes, It's good, right? So you should look for, I think one of my friends, he put it right,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":104,"time":"37:01","seconds":2221,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"AI agents are sneaky,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":105,"time":"37:07","seconds":2227,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"and they're dumb, or, you know, or they're sneaky and dumb, right? They're like, they try to be, you know, they try to just reward hack their way towards that test. So all you have to think of is like, they cannot reward hack that, right? Like you're putting up gates that they have to pass through. It's like a, you know, it's like a marathon where every mile you're like, okay, you better cross that mile, you better cross that mile and that mile, and then come back to the starting point. But by the time if you went through all those miles, you roughly hit 26 miles anyway, right? So that's one way to look at it as to how you deal with agents and their shenanigans.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":106,"time":"37:52","seconds":2272,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Are you pulling principles from Gascown and other approaches where you have review and mayoral agents that are managing all these other sessions? I mean, obviously you're leveraging subagents significantly, but as I think anyone who has used a lot of subagents in Claude Code will rapidly find out is sometimes subagents do really dumb things.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":107,"time":"38:12","seconds":2292,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"Like","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":108,"time":"38:17","seconds":2297,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"I mentioned, there's another strata of AI coding gurus that I look up to and I see their setup and I was like, I don't know what you did, but just give me that setup. It looks cool on my three monitors. But, so I think I would not leave, I wouldn't go that far to just be like, okay, this agent is, you know, going off in the weeds and doing something, right? Like my agents, for example, the one that looks at Spur, it just monitors for issues filed, fixes it. I know exactly what that agent is doing. It's gonna wake up at 5 a.m., it's gonna check it. If it is, it'll figure it out and go back to sleep. That's its job, right? That's like, so I'm not gonna maintain Spur, until it finds an issue it can't fix and then I'll go and be like okay I need to go take care of this thing. But I think the key part of it is I multi-thread a lot or it's multi-processed. And I don't necessarily just give free reign to like, go spawn your own thread pool, right? And what I mean by that is, you know, I would rather take, and this is another analogy I use, which is like, I don't really care about like, Teak, you know, slash fast 2x the tokens, because that means I'm in the loop, right? That means it's like, you know, CPU IPC count. do I need 5.2 gigahertz of this, you know, because that means I have to do something that's so latency sensitive that I'm in the loop and I have to go type something, right? My general use is, you know, kind of like what the strengths of like a thread ripper, right? It's like, it's got 96 cores of things that are just going to chug along. And my job is to make sure, okay, there's one multi-threaded server that's running with like 10 things, it'll go do this, five will do this. I'm not trying to orchestrate the whole world. I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":109,"time":"40:11","seconds":2411,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"view it like my personal workstation, which has 96 cores. And I don't use all of it all the time, but I have two or three things that I multi-thread, but it's contained. It's not like, hey, here's a computer. You can do instructions. Just go and just spawn and fork whatever you want and make some progress. I think it'll just be like, too much noise and less signal to extract. So I kind of constrain it to focused efforts that I care about.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":110,"time":"40:45","seconds":2445,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"You've spent a lot of your career betting on open source, from what you're doing at non.ai to open sourcing Rockham, to Shark, to, you know, what you're doing today. As you think about this new era where everyone is coding with agents first, agents are driving massive new throughput, speed is the moat, as you put it. What does this all mean for AMD and AMD's software stack?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":111,"time":"41:13","seconds":2473,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"So the first thing, I mean, open source, since day one of my career, in the early 2000, 2001 timeframe too, I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":112,"time":"41:25","seconds":2485,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] was a big proponent of Gen 2 Linux, and I still have a Gen 2 laptop on my framework laptop here. So open source is key to innovation, in my opinion. Open source, open models, open ecosystems, which comes to why AMD has been a real wavelength match for me because that's how I think AMD is set up, right? We want to innovate, but we also want everyone else to innovate so that you're not limited by our abilities to innovate, right? We want everyone to be able to move as fast as possible. AMD's software stack is fully open source, right? In fact, there was one little blob that was like 50 KB that wasn't. Finally, I got that one open source, right? So people are happy with that. that just allows like immense ability to innovate. Like I literally have a Strix Halo with the entire Rokken codebase checked out. And I could make one change and I could say, go make this change across the entire stack. And if you wanted, that could be part of what tomorrow's OrCam releases, right? Which is amazing. And it's also amazing because you could do it. Like Conor could be the one that checks out on your six Halo and says, fix my hip plus LT something, something for my new workload that came in. we don't have to be in the loop, right? Which is amazing. And now with the speed of like, you know, generating this code. you just point it to what you have to do or what is bothering you, right? And, you know, in the next few weeks, months, we're gonna increasingly expose a genetic, you know, kernel layer and all that, right? So that we don't have to be in the loop. If you find an issue, you have the entire source code, entire source tree. You could even patch that issue. Your agent could patch that issue. and you could move forward and you could submit the PR, right? Which is just like mind-blowing because now you're just saying, you know, sure, there's an issue, there's an issue, file a ticket, do this, do that. And then it's like Excel, SLA, but like, you can do all of that. But also your agents like, you know what? I think I know where the issue is. I'm just going to fix it. And I'm going to patch your, you know, little library that does this. And here's a workaround and you're unblocked. As long as it works for you, you're okay, right? Of course, we'll review it and we'll test it and formulate it, et cetera. So, I don't think there is any software mode left. I do, and that's a very broad statement, of course.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-46-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":113,"time":"43:56","seconds":2636,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I mean, we saw it this morning, right? Like people have been loving Claude code as a harness. And again, we're dating ourselves in time. So this won't come out for a couple of weeks, but you know, the code leaks and within hours, people have multiple forks of it in different languages that have been completely rewritten and seem to be working. I think you're right.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-46-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":114,"time":"44:14","seconds":2654,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"Yeah, it is just, I mean,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":115,"time":"44:19","seconds":2659,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"the way I'd summarize it is, as a software engineer, you bring the skills and the first principles thinking,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":116,"time":"44:29","seconds":2669,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"you should get unlimited tokens. And then the rest is just how you spend your tokens, right? It's just like, you know, the product will be made. It's just, you're going to consume the tokens, apply your critical thinking, and there's a product. assumptions of like how big a team needs to do this and all of that is going to be rewritten because you yourself have so much agency to execute at a scale that we couldn't, right? Going back to the excavator, now you could be moving 10 tons of thing a day versus, you know, you could be shoveling with Vim and, you know, VS Code, right? If you are not agentic. So, It's just a transition that we have to embrace and we have to help everyone come along.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":117,"time":"45:24","seconds":2724,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So how does this change AMD's philosophy towards things like your developer program and how you're training enabling developers, uh, or things like the community contributions? Like I, I saw in the recent Rockham release, uh, like the support for Strix Halo got was a community contribution. It looked like, um, client platforms on windows, there was a community contribution. How are you, you continuing to lean into how to keep enabling that?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":118,"time":"45:49","seconds":2749,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"Yeah, so","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":119,"time":"45:52","seconds":2752,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"we uniquely had that opportunity that we're fully open source, so anyone can contribute. But the code base obviously is large, it's different layers, it's hard to understand. So contributions were kind of manually done and limited in terms of how much impact it could have. But now you could, we literally see commits that are, you know, far reaching impact, but just, you know, it's, initially it was like, there's a little bit of like, oh, AI slop, AI slop. We just had to tighten the knobs a little bit to say, okay, tests have to pass, AI has to be green before even we, anything to do to look at the code, right? So, we expect that to accelerate AMD to a point where it is like, you know, suddenly we have jet fuel and everyone can fly. It's like, let's go and let's see what we have to enable, to focus on the outcomes that you need. I think AMD provides a very solid hardware platform and now software is just tokens.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":120,"time":"47:09","seconds":2829,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Software is just tokens. That is a really good, I think, closing note for us. And maybe we'll become the Titleist episode. So we'll see where we get to with the edit. But Anush, it's been fantastic catching up with you. I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts on the future of software, how you're approaching it today, and what it all means for AMD. For folks listening who want to check out AMD's ecosystem or want to learn more about your approach, where should they start?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":121,"time":"47:38","seconds":2858,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"definitely like if we amd.com for our hardware portfolio right and github.com slash rockum and the best place in there is like the rock which is you know it's just git clone build get an amd device and and just start tinkering you'll you'll be amazed as to You just set up Claude Code and just say go get the rock project and build it and run it on your Strix Halo. That's all you need to tell Claude Code. And it's going to go do everything. Of course, it takes some time to compile a compiler and all that good stuff. But after all of that, you own every bit of that, which means you can make changes across the stack. And we are here to help. I think AMD had a growing up and a journey to get to where we are in terms of like our software but I think we are there and and you know it's great to see that software is just tokens now.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":122,"time":"48:39","seconds":2919,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Absolutely. I think we are very close to a future of heterogeneous compute where instead of folks being, I mean, locked into NVIDIA's tech stack, as many folks are, uh, you are enabled to leverage compute across devices. Obviously something, you know, we're very excited to be partnering on the modular front with AMD","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":123,"time":"49:00","seconds":2940,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] Yes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-55-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":124,"time":"49:00","seconds":2940,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] around much of this. And, uh, though this, this episode is not about that, so I'm not going to dive into it too deep. Uh, but I, I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-55-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":125,"time":"49:07","seconds":2947,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] We","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-55-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":126,"time":"49:07","seconds":2947,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] think.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-55-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":127,"time":"49:07","seconds":2947,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] love modular, by the way.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-55-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":128,"time":"49:09","seconds":2949,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] We'll have a lot of fun, I think, later","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-55-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":129,"time":"49:11","seconds":2951,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"[OVERLAP] Yes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-55-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":130,"time":"49:11","seconds":2951,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] this year. It's going to be a good time. Anush and I can't tease too much of that, though. So I think there's very exciting things ahead of us. And the fact that AMD has leaned so hard into open source just provides this incredible acceleration opportunity to, you know, have this speed as a mode, as you've talked about, and as you've been, I think, hammering home for years now. And the testing opportunities that provides, the acceleration opportunities that provides, the simple awareness for developers and the trust that it builds. We are very much seeing a future where you can leverage other devices, you can leverage them concurrently. I'm super excited to get some local coding models running on AMD hardware here in the next few weeks so I can try that out and compare and run that in parallel. So some of my cloud coded harness work. So it is a very exciting future and can't wait to see how you and the rest of the team over at AMD continue to develop a new. Thank you so much for coming on the show. It's been great chatting with you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-55-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":131,"time":"50:12","seconds":3012,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"Thank you, Conor. It's a pleasure.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan","episode":56,"guid":"25760281-0c63-40e0-8f25-d7d0dd220e1c","episodeTitle":"250,000 Lines of Code/Week: Inside an AMD VP's Agent-First Workflow | Anush Elangovan","publishedAt":"2026-04-22","segmentIndex":132,"time":"50:13","seconds":3013,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And for folks who are listening and want to dive deeper into all the topics that Anush is discussing and everything happening with the Claude Code copying, with AMD's acceleration, with everything else happening in software development and AI today, Make sure to check out the Chain of Thought substack at newsletter.chainofthought.show. Would love to hear your thoughts about our next essays and keep giving us your feedback. We always appreciate it when you give us your rating and review or drop a comment. And thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/56-250-000-lines-of-code-week-inside-an-amd-vps-agent-first-workflow-anush-elangovan/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Sudhir Hasbe","text":"Why is it hard to build a self-driving car? Because you just can't like get into an accident. It requires a lot of validation and a lot of stuff to be done in a self-driving car, right? Things like the systems that are critical to businesses, for them to be accurate is a necessity. It's not an option.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:22","seconds":22,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Welcome back to Chain of Thought, everyone. I am your host, Conor Bronsdon, Head of Technical Ecosystem at Modular. My guest today is Sudhir Hasbe. Sudhir is President and Chief Product Officer at Neo4j, the leading graph database company. They have more than 200 million ARR in business. They are valued at over $2 billion, and their technology is embedded in 84 of the Fortune 100, including Walmart, Uber, Airbus, B&W, and many more. Before Neo4j, Sudhir ran product management for all of data analytics services at Google Cloud, where he oversaw BigQuery, Looker, Dataflow, and actually led that Looker acquisition. And all of that has informed his thesis on how AI and data are flowing today. And that is that while we all talk about hallucinations in AI and blame them on the model, their predictive text machines after all, we need to stop treating it like a model problem. It's fundamentally a data architecture problem. It means that we're not supplying the model the right context, the right memories. And the fix isn't better prompts or bigger models, it's knowledge graphs. Sudhir, welcome to Chain of Thought, excited for this conversation.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":2,"time":"1:33","seconds":93,"speaker":"Sudhir Hasbe","text":"Same here, Conor, thanks for having me and looking forward to the conversation today.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:37","seconds":97,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, it's gonna be a lot of fun, but before we dive in, I do have to say a quick thanks to our presenting sponsors, Galileo. If you're building applications and need to understand why your models are behaving the way they are, Galileo's eval intelligence will help you debug, evaluate, and monitor your LLM systems. Check them out at Galileo.ai. Sudhir, you've argued that the challenges with hallucinations in AI are due to how we architect data for our systems. Can you explain your perspective here?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":4,"time":"2:03","seconds":123,"speaker":"Sudhir Hasbe","text":"Yeah, first of all, I want to decouple the consumer AI versus the enterprise AI, right? That's one of the big things. A lot of these large language models have been trained in publicly available information. So of course, they are much better trained on general web information on the web and used based on that. And the newer and newer models with more reasoning capability are getting better and better at answering questions and getting information. But enterprise AI is completely different. In enterprises, you want to use your enterprise knowledge to power the agentic or AI systems. And these models have not been trained on that information. And training a custom model or even fine-tuning models is actually an expensive proposition. You're not going to go ahead and give your enterprise like, you know, IP and knowledge in many cases to some of these models. You may train some small models, but not everything. Everybody can build another GPT or like Gemini-like model. That's not where the world will be going. So that's one thing. The second thing is models by default are non-deterministic. They're supposed to take information. The generative technology was about how do you predict the next word. With the reasoning capability, things are improving more. But still, it is going to try and answer questions based on information it has and come up with logic behind it in some cases, right? So therefore, my thesis is like for enterprise AI especially, you have to figure out how and when to use model and for what you're using the large language models for, which is actually language understanding, intent understanding, also reasoning capabilities. It's becoming really good at reasoning through things, but then you all have to figure out what's your data architecture to provide that enterprise knowledge to the agentic system so that you can make right decisions and you can audit the decisions, you know exactly what you're doing and be more deterministic in some of these decision-making. So that's my thesis on this, is like you have to, as an enterprise, figure out what your data architecture is. And also Gartner talks about this AI-ready data concept, which is same thing that I'm trying to say is that it's less about AI-ready data, but how do you give enterprise knowledge to AI systems so you can make right decisions.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":5,"time":"4:31","seconds":271,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, when I interviewed Aishwarya Srinivasan last year talking about architecting AI agents, she argued basically that the shift from AI is basically we're moving from models being the core of everything to the systems around the models and the harness being extremely important and that we've kind of underrated that for the last couple of years. Your argument somewhat sounds like the next step, the shift from system to knowledge architectures. Is that a fair description?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":6,"time":"4:58","seconds":298,"speaker":"Sudhir Hasbe","text":"Yeah, I think it is. I actually went and looked up that particular like podcast. I've read about it too. I think that she's, Aishwarya is absolutely right, right? Model is one component of the full system and how you architect the system is the next thing to figure out how to build enterprise ready applications or systems that are built. And what I'm saying is, as part of the overall system, you also need to think about what is your data architecture as part of the holistic system? How are you going to get your enterprise data is siloed? It's in like hundreds of applications, if not thousands. And even if you put all of that into a data lake or data swamp, it's going to be like, thousands or tens of thousands of tables, this is all disconnected. How do you bring all of that information so that agentic systems or AI systems can reason over it and make right decisions? You need to figure that out. And I think that is the problem to solve as part of system architectures, how these things, systems come together, would be what is your data strategy and how is the data going to be represented, constructed so that models can actually leverage it best into making decisions.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":7,"time":"6:13","seconds":373,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So one of the great things about data lakes or data swamps is how evocative that imagery is. But those clearly aren't working effectively for AI agents today.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":8,"time":"6:24","seconds":384,"speaker":"Sudhir Hasbe","text":"Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":9,"time":"6:25","seconds":385,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"What's the right model of knowledge application or databases to provide AI agents so they can actually reason over them effectively?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":10,"time":"6:35","seconds":395,"speaker":"Sudhir Hasbe","text":"Yeah, I think I would say if you think about like, you know, data lakes, like, you know, having all data, even if it was like, first of all, data is siloed in very, very different systems. Even if you put it into data lakes, having a lot of tables and letting agents go, like, you know, go into the system and figure out what you want to go do with the data and find the relationships between data yourself is not going to work, right? So there are different patterns and practices we see where customers are leveraging, like, you know, knowledge graphs for, and I think one of the patterns that we have seen is this using it as a semantic map. like we've been working with customers like EA Sports and they did this where they use Snowflake for all of their data lake, like they have like massive amounts of tables and all and the users want to go ahead and ask business questions, get answers and all and the big challenge is like it's all over the place, it's massive amounts of data but you want to be able to figure out what is the right data set, what domain is it in, what is the interrelationship between different data assets, and this could be, in this case, it's a lot of it is in Snowflake, but in many other cases, it could be across in different systems. So I think using a knowledge graph to go ahead and map your, like, you know, estate, like enterprise estate, or what dependencies are, what things are going on in what tables and how they are related to other tables, plus what is your semantic model, which is, ontology is about like what does this particular word mean in esports case it would be like when you say fifa it could be the fifa 26 game it could be fifa last year's game in the context of the user what does that different game means america's could mean us it could mean north america it could be everything So I think understanding what those meaning of words are and having that into the semantic map then helps agents make much better decisions. So rather than throwing like, hey, here is all the tables and columns and go figure out what you do, you use a pattern wherein you go ahead and talk about Here is your semantic map of what each different entities means, and then let it reason over that, and then you can go ahead and convert that into a system that can actually give you accurate results and accurate answers, right?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":11,"time":"8:59","seconds":539,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So instead of a data lake, it's more about mapping all the inflows of that data in an effective way. So maybe it's the river of data that rolls into that lake that becomes the holding area is what you need to map so the agent can understand the inflows and how they relate to one another.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":12,"time":"9:15","seconds":555,"speaker":"Sudhir Hasbe","text":"Exactly. And also, it's not just about data lakes. The way I think about it is every agentic system actually needs like four to five types of data assets to make sense out of the enterprise environment, right? Let me show you something I was putting together. Last week, we had a customer conference, and I was trying to share how to think about enterprise estate. And if you think about it, You have information, a system of record of present, which is the operational databases where you have real-time data. Things are coming in. When you do a transaction on your credit card, it goes into a system of record. That's where the latest information is. You need to be able to access that. You need to be able to know what it is. Then you have your analytical systems, which are system of records for the past, which is what's the historical view of your data. You want to be able to get to that and that is in siloed in like, let's say it's Snowflake or Databricks or like large data lake environments that you have. Then you have memory, and we'll talk more about memory and context graph, but memory is more about what is the short-term, long-term state of the agents, what agentic workflows and what are the state of that. And then context about everything when you make decisions, what's not stored in system of record and system history, it's going to be all over different systems and interactions and how do you capture that. And so when you think about like what agents really need is they need this knowledge graph layer or enterprise knowledge layer which incorporates all of these different aspects which is metadata, the semantic map, what is the domain information and reference data which you may need some kind of virtual access. You are not going to move everything into one single system. Like breaking silos doesn't mean you move everything into one new system and now create another silo. It's more about, hey, you can do a virtual access around it. And then your ontologies and memory and all. So I think the whole idea is, how do you understand your enterprise estate, make it available for enterprise agentic platform to get access to all those different types of data, but one layer that understands all of it and maps it out. So agentic systems can come there and figure out where they need to go to do what activities and all that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":13,"time":"11:46","seconds":706,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, I think we started with a more simple reg system was what everyone is using a couple years back, right? And we've since called it dead, but it's more like it's evolved. We started with, you know, chunking our documents, embedding them as vectors, doing similarity search. And a lot of teams are still running that playbook to some extent.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":14,"time":"12:05","seconds":725,"speaker":"Sudhir Hasbe","text":"Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":15,"time":"12:05","seconds":725,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"But where are you seeing it break down as you try to access this entire corpus of enterprise data?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":16,"time":"12:09","seconds":729,"speaker":"Sudhir Hasbe","text":"Yeah, I think, see, if your use case is very simple, your documents are very simple, you vectorize them. And vectorization is what? It's basically you're taking a large document, chunking it into smaller chunks, and then storing them in it. And then you vectorize it, create embeddings. And then when you have a question, you try to find a very similar, like whatever the question user is asking, you do a similarity search in the vector space. Again, I will give you a real good example. This was a podcast I was listening to. It is by the CPO of LinkedIn interviewing the Spotify CTO. And he was like, he gave this example and stuck with me in my head. I always use it. It's basically like, you know, vector searches, similarity searches have been done for a very long time at Spotify, he explained. But the problem they were facing was now in a vector space, When you say, I want to have this song and show me all similar songs that the user is listening to, you may be listening to a pop song and suddenly the next vector similarity could show you in country music or some other music genre. Because in vector space, it's just mathematical similarities that you're looking at. And their thing was, they went and did some acquisition about this metadata company that gave all the background information about songs. So now like users were confused. Why am I, I'm listening to this pop song. I want similar thing. Why am I now suddenly seeing this completely different genre? So they were able to use this metadata behind it to say, no, no, no. When the user is listening to this, now you use this additional metadata as a context to go ahead and restrict what the answers look like within that domain. So I think this is one example, which was really simple to understand. But we have been working with folks like L'Oreal and others, many of them, like RocketMultigen. Many of them have started with the journey in pure RAG or vector search use cases. The accuracy is around 60%, 65%. There are different research that is done in that range by using graph and graph RAG, which is, when I say graph RAG, it is a combination of, I can do a vector search, And then I'm applying a filtering layer with all the other metadata as a graph layer on top of it. Or you can start with graph traversal queries and use vectors in combination. So you're combining these two patterns to go ahead and become way more accurate. And we have customers that are way above 90% accurate. And the next thing that I have seen, which is even better, is now with reasoning engines, like you just don't have to do like text-to-cipher or pure meta-search as a pattern. What we are seeing is like, because of reasoning engines now have ability to give tools to it, you can refine and get more accuracy over a period of time by adding more targeted tools. In case of EA, for example, if you're looking for games and game performance, and you know that question is pretty common by many, many people, you can create a new tool for game performance. Anytime somebody asks about performance, the reasoning engine or the query generator doesn't have to figure out what should be the SQL query across different tables. No, you have a single like a predefined tool that actually gives you exactly that. So the combination of going from just pure similarity search, which is never going to be enough because it's like non-deterministic, to graph plus vectors, which is GraphRag, allowing you to go ahead and do this lot of metadata, lot of relationships around it, and vectors, plus ability in reasoning engines to give specific tools, actually you can easily get to above 95, 97% accuracy over a period of time.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":17,"time":"16:00","seconds":960,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"We know that knowledge graphs unlock capabilities for AI systems, and you've done a good job throughout conversations I've seen of yours and writing you've done of breaking down this across five capabilities. So graph reg, we've talked a bit about semantic mapping, agent memory, which if folks want a full deep dive on, our recent episode of Threat to MetaLockA is a great one, context graphs, and then multi-hop reasoning.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":18,"time":"16:25","seconds":985,"speaker":"Sudhir Hasbe","text":"Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":19,"time":"16:25","seconds":985,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Can you break down each of these concepts? Maybe let's start with graph reg first. We've talked a bit about it. For teams that have built basic reg and hit a wall, what does graph reg actually change about retrieval? And what are they getting that vector similarity search alone can't give them?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":20,"time":"16:43","seconds":1003,"speaker":"Sudhir Hasbe","text":"Yeah, I think this is the five benefits that customers experience that you are highlighting, just to keep it on the screen so people can see. A graph rag, of course, like there are three main points on graph rag that is really what is the biggest benefit. One is accuracy. As we talked about, like, hey, if you're doing just pure vector-based rag versus like graph rag, There's a lot of research on the web where you can go from really 60, 65% accuracy to 90, 95 plus percent accuracy. It's 3x better, especially if your questions are complex, the problems are complex and across multiple documents or within a large amount of document, you're looking for things that are interrelated. Those complex queries like GraphRag is 3x plus better in answering those kinds of questions. So that's one thing. The second thing is it's easier to develop it. Like it's super hard to visualize, understand a vector space, right? Like if you think about, if you are looking at a customer and you said two customers are similar, and you'd actually did that when just like vector embedding search about something, it's super hard to visualize and figure out what a vector looks like versus in graph you have a complete like you know entities relationships you can look at the customer look at what products they have brought you can do complete explanation about what all is uh is around it i think that is a big part of the of the puzzle and then finally uh explainability and auditability right like whenever you want to make decisions you also want to be able to explain why you're deciding something it's not just i can easily develop things i can visualize it but it's also i can explain things in a much better way so higher accuracy easier to develop with and the third one is explainability those are the three big advantages that like GraphRag has over traditional VectorRag environments.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":21,"time":"18:47","seconds":1127,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Uh, thanks for that. That's super useful explanation. And for those watching on YouTube, hopefully this great breakdown that Sudhir is showing is helpful. So, okay, GraphRec, you know, next we have this idea of semantic mapping of information. We've talked about how this enables agents Why is this so important? Obviously, it's interesting because it solves a problem we constantly hear from enterprises. Our data is in 50 different systems and nothing talks to each other. You're not asking them to move all their data. You're asking them to map the river system from which all their data flows.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":22,"time":"19:23","seconds":1163,"speaker":"Sudhir Hasbe","text":"Yeah, that's correct, Conor. I think, let me see if I can pull up one more slide. This is the one which is interesting. There are three patterns we see with our customers as they look at building agentic systems, common architectures, right? The first one is what I call the semantic layer or semantic map architecture, wherein you don't move anything. you keep all your systems where they are, but use knowledge graphs as a primary way to understand your enterprise domain. You understand where what data is, where what decisions are being made, and what is the reference information maybe for some of the data sets that you have. So between reference data, between your metadata and the map of where what is. Now agents can go to this system to understand what the landscape looks like, but to actually make decisions and all that can go to the original systems where the data is. And so in this case, if you look at it, the knowledge layer is sitting on the side and it's not part of the actual decision-making process other than giving you reasoning capability for agentic systems. The middle portion is wherein you say, no, I think there are parts of the puzzle where the data is so distributed into multiple systems that without having some amount of data consolidated, you just can't do reasoning well. So if your customer information is split between 20 systems and you have no single view of customer, you need to bring these things together and what relationship they have with different things so that you can reason over it more consistently. And this example would be if you were, let's say, Salesforce or one of the other large companies, anybody who uses Salesforce in your environment, we are a customer of Salesforce. You have the sales cloud, you have the core CRM system, there's marketing cloud, then there is the service cloud. All of these systems are different. And then if you want to get a single view and then decide like, hey, when a customer calls for support, what has the person got? Where did they come from? What products have they bought? If you want that kind of consolidated place where you want to reason across multiple things, you could put some of that data into the knowledge graph layer. So you basically say it's semantic map plus some domain data falls into that. And then there is this extreme other end wherein You basically say, no, no, no, I want all my knowledge to be in a single system. I will use my agents to go run over that particular knowledge graph and make all decisions. This is Klarna. I think if people haven't seen Sebastian, who is the CEO at Klarna, talk about what they did with Kiki, which is there. Um chat experience for all of their internal employees, uh, they were able to get significant Uh, like they they got rid of bunch of saas applications They built everything on top of this knowledge graph layer in this scenario. They did move all of their knowledge in the company to one single knowledge graph layer and built everything. So I think there are three of these patterns, but I think what I see mostly people start with is either number one or number two, which is combination of one and some part of the data. That's where I think we see a lot of adoption from.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":23,"time":"22:42","seconds":1362,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I think a question that folks who are maybe newer to agent development might bring up here is, OK, great. We've done the semantic mapping. We're starting to have an understanding of where information lives. How is this different from a context graph that I want to enable my agent with?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":24,"time":"22:58","seconds":1378,"speaker":"Sudhir Hasbe","text":"Yeah, I think that's a great question. There's a lot of discussion about memory and context graphs, so let's talk a little bit about both, but let's start with context graphs. Context is very simple. If you are an enterprise B2B environment, if you're selling two enterprises, let's say, You have a CRM system that you'd use. Let's take Salesforce in this case. Salesforce is a system of record for decisions. What does that mean? You basically come in and say, hey, there is an interaction happening between the salesperson and their customer about, hey, we would like you to use our product. They come back and say, but my budget is only X. I can only like, you know, buy at this price, but this is our pricing. There's a lot of negotiation back and forth happening between the customer and the salesperson. That's happening, let's say, in emails and all. Then there is additional stuff happening between the seller and the internal, their manager, management chain. Maybe on Slack, they're talking about, hey, do I need, like, can I go out and give them this much discount? Seems like a really high potential customer. In future, they can grow to a really massive customer for us. That interaction is happening in Slack. And at finally, let's say the sales leadership says, okay, fine, give them an above normal discount so that we can get them started or whatever. So that happens. Now the system of record is going to store the decision, which is like, okay, the discount approved was this, and this is what it is. But all the context graph talks about, this context graph is the decision that was made, which should be recorded, but also the context of the decision, which is not in the systems anymore, which will be important for future decision making for autonomous agents. So this all interaction that's in email and in Slack, can you codify that and put it into the graph so that you can now say, why was this customer given above normal approval? And here is the additional context for it. So the reason why this is important for agentic systems, especially going forward is the other part is like you should do the same thing with agents and agentic systems, like what audits, decision audits you want to have. But it's because now you can make the future decision making much more accurate as we move forward. But that is the whole idea of context graphs is like recording not just the decision, but all the context around it. So your future decisions are much more accurate.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":25,"time":"25:26","seconds":1526,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] and as those decisions are made they become memories for the agents involved.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-24-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":26,"time":"25:32","seconds":1532,"speaker":"Sudhir Hasbe","text":"[OVERLAP] Exactly.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-24-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":27,"time":"25:33","seconds":1533,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"How do you then differentiate the memory aspect for agents and run that in parallel or align to these other information graphs that we're already diving into?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":28,"time":"25:46","seconds":1546,"speaker":"Sudhir Hasbe","text":"So I think about memory as a much broader concept. Context graph or decision orders is one part of memory. There will be other parts of the memory, which also includes things like all the stuff that agent is doing, right? Like every interaction, And there is also this concept of individual memory versus organizational memory. I will give you an example. If you today go to chat GPD, go to any one of the chat experiences that are available, you can go to their settings and look at personalization and you can see what it has learned about you. It's like a personal memory. Every interaction teaches them something. Mind already knows that I work at Neo4j, I'm this, I have two kids, they're going to go to college soon because I keep looking for college information. So that's what that is. And similarly, if you had an autonomous system doing fraud, like automation or fraud agent, all the individual fraud decisions it's making, it's recording that and it understands. That's the memory, individual memory. But in enterprises, what is also important is to think about organizational memory. It's not that individual agent did this thing about the transaction, but organizational memory would be if there were agents communicating with like the customer service part of it, and they are talking to this particular customer, the fraud agent, which is actually looking at different things and making decisions and recording that in the memory because it will basically be like hey we found this fraud we did this thing this activity was done and all of that if a customer calls on the other agent it should be able to refer back and say okay what happened to this customer what was the transaction did we block it what what's happening what was the rationale what was the decision for that and also i think memory is fundamentally recording of continuous state changes that is happening in the agentic systems and with agents. And then when you look at it at a wider than one single agent or set of agents and go broader in the organization, this gives you like this ever building map of things that are happening in the organization that are all autonomous in general, right? So that's where it could be. Thanks to Galileo for sponsoring this episode. Their new 165-page comprehensive guide to mastering multi-agent systems is freely available on their website at galileo.ai and provides you the lens you need to understand when multi-agent systems add value versus single-agent approaches, how to design them efficiently, and how to build reliable systems that work in production. Download it for free at the link in the show description to discover how to continuously improve for your AI agents, identify and avoid common coordination pitfalls, master context engineering for agent collaboration, measure performance with multi-agent metrics, and much more.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":29,"time":"28:40","seconds":1720,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I like that you're mentioning the difference between a single agent's memory and the memory of an agent swarm, of an enterprise. And I'll definitely recommend once again for listeners that if you haven't already listened to our deep dive on agent memory that came out a couple weeks ago, highly recommend it. But I also think it's important we talk about how these concepts work together. So we've talked about context graphs, we've talked about knowledge graphs more broadly, semantic mapping, agent memory. graph reg. The thing that we haven't mentioned is multi-hop reasoning and the capability that that provides and how this interacts with these other types of information gathering and organization. Can you bring it all together for us, Sudhir?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":30,"time":"29:25","seconds":1765,"speaker":"Sudhir Hasbe","text":"Yeah, I think, let me talk about multi-hop reasoning, right? I think multi-hop reasoning is nothing but like, hey, can you, when a problem comes to the agent, can agent follow through different paths that it needs to go in and hop across different information sets and make the decision, right? That's what it is. If you look at it, I was actually playing with Claude on some things and I was like trying to figure out some use cases for multi-hop uh reasoning part and especially because financial service is such a big one for vertical for us so i think this may not be clearly visible uh but hopefully it is so here is what what i did was i was like okay what are the if you look at fraud ring detection what does the multi-hop reasoning in this world look like and if i really look at like just the model the graph model for this is going to be pretty complex there are accounts there are people identity corporate entities like there's a lot of complexity behind it and if you look at multi-hop reasoning and if you're doing a fraud ring discovery it's basically going to go from this individual john to their iphone which is there to the the individual that's linked to it to their like you know account and then transaction and what the additional mule account looks like and so it's able to go ahead and hop between different data sets to go say is it really like enough fraud or not. And same way, if you look at anti-money laundering, it's going to jump from the legal entity to account to transaction. So multi-hop reasoning is nothing but ability for you to go jump between all these disparate data sets that are in different systems and trying to rationalize between their relationships and make decisions. And so I think if you look at the full stack we offer then, is like hey you will have an llm or some model that allows you to reason through things understand intent you will have like set of tools that are available to uh the the reasoning engines which is nothing but uh like set of uh apis or set of things that we give and there is like this whole knowledge graph layer that brings all the data together where you can reason over all of the complex data assets that you have. So I think a combination of these is actually going to give you the best way to build agentic systems then.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":31,"time":"31:52","seconds":1912,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So this obviously requires a lot of setup. And I think there are folks out there who go, you know, I was supposed to do this magic bullet where it solves my problems. I have all this infrastructure work to do. And longtime listeners of this podcast will know that we've been talking about those challenges for two years almost now. But, you know, bear with me here. Obviously, you know, maybe I can just do one or two of these and, you know, it'll be fine. The models are getting so much smarter. I'm not going to get these hallucination problems that, you know, others are because the models are so much better now. What would you say to those folks who are maybe looking to skip a couple steps in their infrastructure buildup?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":32,"time":"32:34","seconds":1954,"speaker":"Sudhir Hasbe","text":"Yeah, I think, what was it? I was just looking at some data in the industry. 95% of AI projects are still not hitting the production grade deployments. I think it's, if you look at darkness number, it is like 60 plus percent never even go from POC to the next phase and all of that. So I think the problem is for simple use cases, simple document, I want to search something, It is easy to go ahead and take the shortcut and figure something out. But in enterprises, when you try to solve problems which are more complex, it's going to require you to go ahead and look at a system. I come back to Aishwarya's point. I agree with her. You need to have a systems approach. rather than a model can do everything and I'm going to go solve for it. I think a great example of this is when we say coding is a solved problem, right? I love Claude Code. I've been using it for like a few weeks now. I just love the ability it has. So I think building more systems now through Claude Code and all is becoming more and more easier. It's much more accurate. but the amount of effort they had to go from like just a generic model to coding as a very generic problem to train the model figure out what the post-training looks like it took a while for us last year plus maybe people have been like improving that model it's getting better and better and it's really good now But that's again on a public data asset where a lot of code is available in GitHub and you can go do things, learn and all. I think as we get into the enterprises, there is no shortcut to this. I think with a lot of new tooling for developers, it's becoming easier to think about these infrastructure components. But I think taking shortcuts in enterprise is not a good strategy. You know, a lot of times, especially we work with a lot of regulated industries, financial services, government. We also work with life sciences. One of our best examples is Novo Nordisk. I can tell you more about it. But all of these different companies do need like, you know, reliable AI systems that can be audited, can be like this. So I will not take shortcuts. I would focus on accuracy. I think the bar right now is like accuracy and auditability or explainability. And if those things are good enough for your use case, then it's great. You should build the simplest system possible for you to go get your results. But like a lot of enterprise scenarios are more complex than just let me do a vector search and find a document. That's not the only thing you do.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":33,"time":"35:15","seconds":2115,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, I think it's very interesting to compare the risk tolerance of enterprise businesses that are serving major maybe B2B customers or millions of users around the world to folks who are working with OpenCloth, for example. And I'm not trying to trash OpenCloth. Very, very cool project. I have a friend who's a maintainer there. He's gone to now sometimes shipping like a thousand plus commits a day. And throughput isn't everything, but it's interesting to see their approach where they're saying, look, we are going to refactor our code constantly. We're just going to keep building forward.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-30-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":34,"time":"35:51","seconds":2151,"speaker":"Sudhir Hasbe","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-30-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":35,"time":"35:51","seconds":2151,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] We're going to churn code. We're just going to keep redoing it. And our speed and velocity is going to solve the problem. And they're able to do that because it's an open source project. They have an army of folks who are looking at security. and they have different rules around what they need to hit. Whereas if I'm a fintech company and I have major regulatory concerns, it can be a very different model for what my risk tolerance is and what I need to achieve in production consistently.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-30-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":36,"time":"36:19","seconds":2179,"speaker":"Sudhir Hasbe","text":"Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":37,"time":"36:19","seconds":2179,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And one of the big problems that comes up when this infrastructure isn't properly set up is hallucinations that impact customers, impact internal teams. Sudhir, what are you seeing happen when an LLM is given access to thousands of tools and no constraints on which ones to use for a given task.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":38,"time":"36:38","seconds":2198,"speaker":"Sudhir Hasbe","text":"I think even the LLM companies would tell you, like, of course, everybody says then give it everything you have and let it make decisions. But I think that also expects us to be really good at what we are giving to these tools, which doesn't work. So I have seen many of our customers tell us like when they give, hundreds of tools to the same reasoning engine for a problem solving it actually comes becomes worse and worse as you add more tools starting with small set of tools it's really good i keep adding more and more tools and it starts becoming worse and worse and it this is the same thing you know when when you're also interacting with these LLMs on a day-to-day basis, the more information you keep giving it once it started answering something, and if you keep adding it, it becomes less accurate. And I think that is a very common thing that I'm noticing. And so I think architects at multiple of our customer companies have brought this up, like I was talking to somebody who used to be at Intuit, now is at Salesforce, and they brought it up like, hey, what they noticed was, like, you had to figure out what is the relevant set of tools for that particular use case that would make sense. So if you could limit the number of tools to relatively good size, but not unbounded, which are relevant for that particular use case, I think then it becomes much more, accurate as a system so this is one of the other things is like how do we take the enterprise knowledge and provide only what is contextually required for that set of use cases is a second level of things that that is going to be really important that will allow you to have much better business validation for the use cases that you have like get me customer information as one step of the agent is different kind of information for fraud versus like i want to do some kind of a marketing campaign for that particular customer like it's different things and if you had tools that were like similar looking but for different scenarios it will not be able to go ahead and reason over it and also the second thing corner i think is interesting is just giving tons and tons of stuff to llms is only going to drive a lot more tokens and cost it's going to be cost prohibitive right yes you should give everything to it but if it is unnecessary irrelevant information you're just increasing your tokens for no reason in the whole system so i think it's it's accuracy plus cost management are the two sides of this thing where having good layer of a set of things across your use cases would be an important thing to focus on.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":39,"time":"39:19","seconds":2359,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So what does a good business validation layer look like? How can a graph enforce that an agent's actions are valid according to business rules?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":40,"time":"39:29","seconds":2369,"speaker":"Sudhir Hasbe","text":"I think my thing would be like based on your use cases, if you know what data assets, what tools are most relevant for mapping that, and then using that when you are going in the reasoning layer, like when you're going to expose what tools to expose, then I think the knowledge graph can be a place. For example, for fraud, here are the 10, 15 most relevant tools that are relevant. in that use case. If that happens, before sending all the tools to the reasoning layer, you would basically say, okay, the intent is very clear. It's this one. Here are all the tools that need to go. Then it becomes that. I think there's a more complex version of this. I think Uber is one of our customers. They talked at one of our customer summits and they were explaining. For them, it's way more complex. They called like The the knowledge graph layer as a business validation layer and the reason was think about the number of jurisdictions Uber eats has to work in and if you're in Seattle area they have Seattle area has different rules on like the payments like the minimum wage. And when does that apply? If the ship, like when the person is from Seattle going to Bellevue or like neighboring cities, then these rules apply. The neighboring jurisdiction may have different rules applied. And all of these policies and rules are all over the place in the current systems that individual systems can take care of. Now in the new agentic world, like can, how do you make sure that if agent is going to make a decision on payment, it is applying these business validations really in the right fashion and stuff like that and so that's where they are using the knowledge graph is to have these complex thousands and thousands of jurisdiction combinations to be converted into a graph so that you can then use that as a validation tier. for them. But I think that's on the more advanced version of it. I'm saying even the basic stuff about, hey, what are the use cases? What are the tools? How do you restrict it? And then what decisions can that particular agent make within that realm, I think will be an interesting thing to start.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":41,"time":"41:37","seconds":2497,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Let's talk about those restrictions a bit more. This connects back to something I recently spoke with Dan Klein from Skilled Cognition about on the show, where he talked about the gap between a prototype that works in a demo and a system you can actually ship. This is a very common refrain, obviously, but one of the interesting things he brought up was that prompting creates a vagueness layer because it's less precise than if we were using code to you know, say, hey, here's explicitly what to do. Often, if we're prompting, we're using human language, we're using English, typically. And English is notoriously a challenging language to learn for individuals, and one that has deep context into how certain things are actually explained, understood. It's part of why we're seeing developers often begin to do their prompting via voice instead, because you're able to much more rapidly provide additional context and kind of think through and talk through a problem instead of adding your own validation layer internally as you write out. Like, when we're writing, we're distilling our knowledge, and maybe there's something that's lost in translation there at times. So, as that vagueness layer, as Dan put it, begins to impact what's flowing into our agents and the orders we're asking them to pursue. There is this other side that you're talking about where we need guardrails to ensure that any vagueness that works its way in or any incorrect information or incorrect context that works its way in does not derail the activities that we're seeking to have our agents do. And you and the Galileo folks in the show and others have talked about this idea of policy-based guardrails. And you're saying we should encode them in the knowledge graphs itself, it sounds like.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":42,"time":"43:24","seconds":2604,"speaker":"Sudhir Hasbe","text":"Yeah, that's correct. And I think I will tell you that it all depends on use cases, right? We work with one of the larger cloud platforms. They use us for all of their security graphs and security stuff. And if you are going to make a decision of shutting down some account because you feel it's been attacked and there's an exposure of risk there, you better be sure that you're going to shut down an account that is going to have an impact on some business you are perfectly accurate about that decision and that does require like hey what are what are the guardrails on it like what have you have to see absolutely true and what tools are allowed to do what action you take it needs to be really well articulated flow of the business process or business validation that it has to go through. It needs to recheck and all of that. Similarly, if you think about self-driving cars, why is it hard to build a self-driving car? Because you just can't get into an accident. It requires a lot of validation and a lot of stuff to be done in a self-driving car, right? So it's things like the systems that are critical to businesses for them to be like accurate is a necessity. It's not an option.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":43,"time":"44:42","seconds":2682,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"You've said before that we are in the first mile of a 26-mile marathon for agentic platforms. How do you see this stack and our approaches continuing to evolve? How do they need to evolve?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":44,"time":"44:58","seconds":2698,"speaker":"Sudhir Hasbe","text":"I think it would be hard for me to predict everything. The marathon thing comes from like I love running and I have","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":45,"time":"45:06","seconds":2706,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"You do have a ton of metals there now that I'm looking. Okay.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":46,"time":"45:09","seconds":2709,"speaker":"Sudhir Hasbe","text":"[OVERLAP] I've run like four full marathons. I've done 60 plus half marathons. And it's one of the things I try to do every year is like do at least now I'm getting old, but like four or five halves at least a year is my goal. I've done two this year and I want to do more this year. So that's where it comes from. It's like mile one is too early to predict what the mile 26 looks like. And my thing is like, At least what I know is like when the whole agentic system thing came, and I will give you some history, right? When I was in Google in 2018, I announced this thing called Data Q&A. It was supposed to be like, ask any question to your data and you'll get answer to. We were so early, there were no LLMs. We had the internal system called Analyzer, which is what Google was using in different experiences. And one of the problems it had was, it just didn't have intent understanding it couldn't understand your intent and so intent was hard-coded so whenever you said something if this was the intent you do this it's like purely like rule-based like really not an extensible system llms come in and now we have this new capability wherein you could understand intent it will hallucinate but at least we knew what what we were getting more and then with vectors now we had this rag pattern and we realized rags were not good enough and all that take like another uh like you know few months to 18 months later now we know few key components in the system that are going to be around there's going to be a large language model which is going to provide you with a lot of intent understanding, language understanding. It also now has all this reasoning capability. So if you give it a set of tools, it will be able to reason through your intent, find the right tool to do activities. So we know large language models are going to be important. you also know in enterprises you will need a data architecture that actually is going to be critical so that these reasoning models can actually make good decisions and so that's where i believe you need to transform your data into knowledge through knowledge graph layer and so that's what that is layer is going to be and then you have like this ability to define additional context additional stuff that is part of memory or context and context graphs and all that's additional new kind of data that will be captured in the system so i actually think those are the key components in next 18 months i'm not sure what would change i think the world is moving too fast So I think we should do this thing in another year's time and see where we have landed now. I think if I see the innovation that's happening with coding and how fast coding is, like I just was blogging about, like I wrote an article saying the cost of development has now gone to zero. And so like cost of storage went to zero, cost of writing new code is going to zero. If that is the case, I don't know what next innovations are going to come and how","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-40-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":47,"time":"48:08","seconds":2888,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Well,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-40-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":48,"time":"48:08","seconds":2888,"speaker":"Sudhir Hasbe","text":"[OVERLAP] fast.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-40-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":49,"time":"48:08","seconds":2888,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] tokens are nothing, let's note, but I hear what you're saying.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-40-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":50,"time":"48:12","seconds":2892,"speaker":"Sudhir Hasbe","text":"[OVERLAP] No, no, I get it. I mean like the incremental cost of writing code, that development time of code was the most longest time. Now","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-40-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":51,"time":"48:19","seconds":2899,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-40-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":52,"time":"48:20","seconds":2900,"speaker":"Sudhir Hasbe","text":"[OVERLAP] it's like,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-40-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":53,"time":"48:20","seconds":2900,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-40-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":54,"time":"48:20","seconds":2900,"speaker":"Sudhir Hasbe","text":"[OVERLAP] if you have an idea, you can generate code very easily. You still","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-40-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":55,"time":"48:23","seconds":2903,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Velocity","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-40-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":56,"time":"48:23","seconds":2903,"speaker":"Sudhir Hasbe","text":"[OVERLAP] need","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-40-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":57,"time":"48:24","seconds":2904,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] is increased","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-40-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":58,"time":"48:24","seconds":2904,"speaker":"Sudhir Hasbe","text":"[OVERLAP] velocity.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-40-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":59,"time":"48:25","seconds":2905,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] rapidly.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-40-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":60,"time":"48:25","seconds":2905,"speaker":"Sudhir Hasbe","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, exactly.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-40-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":61,"time":"48:25","seconds":2905,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-40-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":62,"time":"48:25","seconds":2905,"speaker":"Sudhir Hasbe","text":"[OVERLAP] What I mean is velocity is growing like crazy, right? So we'll see where we land in mile five and mile six, I guess.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-40-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":63,"time":"48:32","seconds":2912,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] And I know part of what Neo4j is doing to prepare for this future is that you've launched your Aura agent, a no-code, low-code environment for building and deploying agents that are grounded in your knowledge graphs.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-40-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":64,"time":"48:45","seconds":2925,"speaker":"Sudhir Hasbe","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-40-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":65,"time":"48:45","seconds":2925,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] We've also shipped an MCP server for integrating graph-based memory and reasoning into existing agent applications. How do you see yourselves and your company continuing to build for this agentic future in the coming months?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-40-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":66,"time":"48:58","seconds":2938,"speaker":"Sudhir Hasbe","text":"I see my thesis is very simple, right? Like if you have your information, we will make it super easy to move it into knowledge graphs, to build knowledge graph. And the second is, once you have your information in the knowledge graph, to build an agent, it should not like be a big deal. We can help you build agent. deploy agent to production pretty quickly what we only need to understand then at that point is what's your use case and what what are you trying to achieve with that agent we can help you with a lot of help from all the coding agents and assistants and all we can help you generate the code that the agent will need a set of tools We have pre-built reasoning model. We internally use Gemini, the latest version of Gemini model to go ahead and run as a reasoning engine. Gemini is really, really good for some of these enterprise use cases. We basically run that in the background. We take your tools that you have defined, and then for your use cases, we actually go ahead and give you a platform that within minutes you can build an agent deployed to production. And then we expose that also as an MCP server because in a multi-agent system you may want to go ahead and use the set of tools that you have for this agent in other places. We also are planning to go ahead and out-of-box support like A2A protocol. So if you have multi-agent systems like agent core in Bedrock or you have like Gemini Enterprise or something else, you should be able to use these agents in different platforms for composing more complex agentic workflows. So I think that's been our strategy is we want to be part of the ecosystem and how we get integrated, but to build like the core agents that can make decisions and do things, we should make it super easy for our developers.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":67,"time":"50:43","seconds":3043,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"For developers who are listening and want to leverage knowledge graphs to power their AI systems and their agents, where should they start?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":68,"time":"50:53","seconds":3053,"speaker":"Sudhir Hasbe","text":"They should just go to Neo4j Aura. They can come in. If you have data in one of your data lakes, Snowflake Databricks, you will be just able to, in three clicks, get that into Knowledge Graph. In just a couple of clicks, you should be able to create an agent, enable it as an MCP server, go to Cloud or any other platform where you can add a MCP server. Just add it and start chatting and do magic from there.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":69,"time":"51:19","seconds":3079,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Fantastic. Sudhir, thank you so much for joining me today. It's been a great conversation. I appreciate you walking us through all the different aspects of knowledge graphs, your thinking on the future of AI agents, and much more. I really appreciate you coming on the show.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":70,"time":"51:33","seconds":3093,"speaker":"Sudhir Hasbe","text":"Thanks, Conor. Thanks to you and thanks to all your audience for having me here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":71,"time":"51:38","seconds":3098,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I also highly recommend following Sudhir on LinkedIn where he shares some fantastic insights. And be sure to check out Neo4j and see if they're right for you. And while you're at it, consider subscribing to our newsletter at newsletter.chainofthought.show where we will be talking about agent memory. talking about context graphs and so much more in essays coming up in the next several weeks. A couple of them may actually be out by the time this show airs. So we hope you enjoy it. We hope you enjoyed this episode. And thank you all for listening. Sudhir, thanks again.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j","episode":55,"guid":"2b560138-9ae3-4e51-9eed-7224bda49ba7","episodeTitle":"Hallucinations Are a Data Architecture Problem | Sudhir Hasbe, Neo4j","publishedAt":"2026-04-16","segmentIndex":72,"time":"52:12","seconds":3132,"speaker":"Sudhir Hasbe","text":"Thanks.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/55-hallucinations-are-a-data-architecture-problem-sudhir-hasbe-neo4j/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"RL is all about doubling down on the things that work and doing less of the things that aren't working. And it's really that simple. Try various things, go in the direction of the things that are working. So if you're playing go or chess, even if you're playing yourself, even if you're moving randomly, one side wins, one side loses. And that means you have a gradient. The one side was better than the other. The rules of the game were crisp and the outcome of the game is clearly defined.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:28","seconds":28,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"We are back on Chain of Thought, everyone. I am your host, Conor Bronsdon, head of technical ecosystem at Modular. My guest today is someone that many of you may know. Dan Klein is co-founder and CTO of Scaled Cognition and a professor of computer science at UC Berkeley, where he leads the Berkeley NLP group. Dan previously won the ACM Grace Murray Hopper Award for his work on grammar induction. And his former PhD students now run AI teams at Google, Stanford, MIT, OpenAI, and several other places, I'm quite sure. Dan also happened to be a serial entrepreneur. His first startup, AdaptTV, was acquired by AOL. His second, Symantec Machines, was acquired by Microsoft in 2018. And then Dan spent five years integrating conversational AI technology there at Microsoft. He is therefore deeply familiar with the challenges between building AI systems and actually shipping them at enterprise scale. This gap between demo and production is what led Dan to start Scaled Cognition, where his team has built APT1, the agentic pre-trained transformer, a model designed from the ground up for actions, which has performed extremely impressively on agentic benchmarks. I'm sure we'll get into it a bit. We'll dive into his approach, his viewpoints on today's research, and much more. Dan, so good to see you. Welcome to DataThon.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":2,"time":"1:45","seconds":105,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"Thanks. It's great to be here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:47","seconds":107,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, very excited for this episode because you have such a depth of experience in the industry and knowledge on the research side as well, which isn't always a guest profile we get to have a conversation with. I feel like it's usually one or the other often these days. So it's, I'm interested, how have you balanced that over the years?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":4,"time":"2:05","seconds":125,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"Yeah, it's always a bit of a balancing act. But I think one of the things that's been really motivating for me is being able to look at both what is happening on the academic side in the research community to be able to see what ideas are developing there, see the cutting edge at the same time to also see what's going on in cutting edge in industry and the interplay between those. And I think having both of those perspectives has really been one of the main things that has unlock opportunities in my career because there are so many great ideas on both sides. And there's often ideas and needs which often don't get communicated often on the academic side. We don't know what the real problems are. And on the research side, there's just so many people thinking about so many ideas, the connections don't always get made. So it's really exciting when you can put those two things together and leverage that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":5,"time":"2:53","seconds":173,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Well, hopefully we can bring some of those together in this conversation. And before we truly dive in, I do want to say a brief thank you to our presenting sponsor of this episode, Galileo. You can check them out at Galileo.ai for AI evals and guardrails. So, Dan, you've described experiencing this pattern where someone would single-handedly build something mind-blowing. Everyone would get excited, and three months later, it was dead. What are the specific failure modes that cause this major gap between the demo that we all get stoked on and maybe overhype at times and actually getting it to something where it's reliable in production?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":6,"time":"3:30","seconds":210,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"Yeah, I mean, there are a lot of reasons. And some of them are things that probably everybody listening to this podcast are familiar with in terms of hallucinations in the system, where the system will do something plausible, but not actually correct. So it looks like it has the right shape. It's just not telling you the truth and stamping that out can be challenging. Or you build a system which does something reasonable. It's just not what you want. And when you try to control it, it's still just persists in doing its original behavior. So I think a lot of the limitations have to do with the sort of limited ability to control through standard control surfaces like prompting, as well as just the natural performance characteristics of many of the models out there. And in general, the models that people are mostly interacting with today are, of course, they're highly generative models, they're operating in a token by token way. And Ultimately, they are assembling plausible outputs on the fly. And it's so easy for those things to be plausible, but not true. The bottom line is we have built not truth engines, not reliability engines, we've built plausibility engines. And that's great for building a prototype. But to get to that last mile, to get to something that you're actually comfortable shipping and that has the guarantees and performance characteristics that an enterprise needs, that's really, really hard. And I think a lot of people don't appreciate how big that last mile can be in an enterprise complex.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":7,"time":"5:02","seconds":302,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I think often we kind of forget that this is what we've built because they are so convincing, these plausibility machines. They often get the answer correct or most of the way correct. And we think, oh, this is just answering my questions. And it's important to remember that, yeah, this is next character prediction that is occurring here. And that plausibility piece kind of gets factored out at times. And I wonder if you think that part of the problem here is the control layer as well, where we are using prompting as this control surface for production systems.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":8,"time":"5:40","seconds":340,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"Yeah, I think that's definitely part of it. I mean, one of the things that is mind-blowing about the recent progress in AI is that we have these models that, in terms of their breadth, in terms of just their ability to be able to make a credible approach to kind of any topic. Fundamentally, they are distillations of all kinds of human knowledge from the web. And so they do know about an incredible breadth of topics. And what comes with that is the ability to kind of prompt them in flexible ways. And that's, that's, it's really, it's really something that it's really something that has changed the shape of how AI is used. At the same time, it's not a control surface that has any kind of precise semantics. It's not a control surface that comes along with any kind of guarantee at all. And so when you put some words in a prompt, you are, you know, it's like a hint. You're requesting that the model do a certain thing you have in mind. And the process of putting your, what you want into words is not a perfect process. Natural language is full of ambiguity, but then There's nothing really that says the system will listen to that. And I think we've all sort of had these experiences interacting with prompts where you prompt the system and it doesn't do what you want. So you change the prompt a little bit and it doesn't do what you want and you change it again. And what is your recourse if the system isn't doing what you ask? You can reword your instructions. You can put your important sentences in all caps. You can add an exclamation point. You can add a second exclamation point. And sometime around where you're adding the third exclamation point, you kind of get the sense that maybe this is not the path to a robust and controllable technology.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":9,"time":"7:35","seconds":455,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, in traditional software, we've obviously built complex systems that we can trust because we are designing them with this very clear language where we break them into pieces with defined inputs and outputs. They have contracts built in and we have compilers that have been built to faithfully translate our code to the machine. But we don't have that same layer of guarantee with LLMs. And it does create this seemingly kind of core problem for a lot of use cases.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":10,"time":"8:06","seconds":486,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, I think that's exactly right. And there's a bunch in what you just said. One is you're exactly right. The main tool we have had historically for building complex, reliable systems has been this notion of modular decomposition, that you take a big problem, you break it down into smaller problems. Each piece has, as you mentioned, contracts. If you give this output input, we'll give this output And you can say something precise about what it will do, what it should do. And, um, that has been very powerful in terms of letting software engineering result in large systems that can actually have a big impact in the world. One of the things that has historically driven machine learning has been end-to-end optimization, which can be at odds with that. You want to reinforcement learn, go system or something like that. And you put the signal in one end and then a whole bunch of","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-9-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":11,"time":"8:59","seconds":539,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] We're","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-9-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":12,"time":"8:59","seconds":539,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"[OVERLAP] complicated","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-9-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":13,"time":"8:59","seconds":539,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] just saying, oh, did it work in the end or work better kind of.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-9-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":14,"time":"9:02","seconds":542,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"Yeah, and you don't have that same tools. And so what's happened is, I think, just structurally, fundamentally, given how these systems have worked, we have started to build systems which do not have the same kinds of modularity, they don't have the same kinds of ability to guarantee what they will or will not do. And that's actually The primary thing that motivates me in general is this question of how can we make sure that the AI models we build are truthful, are trustable, are controllable, and that you can make guarantees about them. And at Scaled Cognition, that is our core mission, really. If you distill everything else down, we are a model lab building models about which you can make guarantees on their behavior. And I think that's an important piece when you look at this context of wanting to use AI in settings where its actions are going to have consequences. I think one of the things that people when they talk about hallucinations may be underappreciate is that in many cases, a generative model, the hallucination is actually the product. So if you're doing image generation, and you give a prompt and you get an image out, you want an invented image, you want something novel, you don't want something copyrighted, regurgitated back to you. And the, the actual purpose of that technology is about generating something new. And then if you take those same sorts of techniques and you turn around and now you want them to be giving you facts, which are vetted and verified and taking actions that are adherent to a policy. This is sort of a underlying fundamental challenge and a mismatch between how these technologies are designed and the uses we want to put them to.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":15,"time":"10:55","seconds":655,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Is there just a fundamental mismatch between how we're leveraging large language models that were originally built for speech recognition, I mean, machine translation, as these sources of truth? How do we square the origination of LLMs with how we're using them today? And maybe this is a question where we can look to Ian LeCun's recent massive fundraiser where he says, no, LLMs are not the way. I think there's plenty of opinions here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":16,"time":"11:27","seconds":687,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"I've been thinking about LLMs for a very long time. I started in natural language processing, you know, quite a bit back and it's really wild how far LLMs have gone from being a very, very specific technology for a very specific purpose to a general layer that many people are using as kind of the operating system of general AI. Originally, when language models were designed, they had sort of one very specific purpose. Their job was to take language and score it. And so this was originally conceived in a context, for example, like a speech recognizer. If you have a system, maybe it's asked you a question and you're going to say yes, or you're going to say no, and the speech recognition system has to figure out what you said. Whether you said yes or no, those sound very different. And the difference between yes and no and O is going to be shown in what frequencies are present in your utterance at what times. And that's what the acoustic model of speech recognition did. It figured out of all the things you might've said, which ones acoustically in terms of their sound match the input. But then there was the problem that the acoustic model could tell the difference between YES and NO because they're pronounced very differently. but it couldn't tell the difference between no-n-o and no-k-n-o-w.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":17,"time":"12:54","seconds":774,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Rrrr.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-12-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":18,"time":"12:55","seconds":775,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"[OVERLAP] I think this is a good answer to the question, and one of them is a bit of a weird word to answer a yes-no question with. The language model was meant to tell you that. It was meant to, you know, a classic example, which I'll have to hyper-articulate to make it clear, because that's the whole point here, is that the sounds in it's hard to recognize speech very similar to it's hard to wreck a nice beat. And if I say those quickly, they're going to sound the same. And it's the language model that comes in and says, hey, acoustic model of all of these possible hypotheses that you have in terms of a transcription, which of them seem like something someone might say or might say in this context. So language models were just there to score plausible from implausible. And that core aspect of being a plausibility box really has just scaled up and up and up. And now they capture plausibility in a much deeper way. The correlations now aren't local frequencies and correlations of adjacent words. Now they're all kinds of long distance knowledge, topics, syntactic, all the correlations that are in not only the structure of language, but the contextual meaning and the real world plausibility. of the words you're using. And so this is all now kind of put into one big bucket in the language model. And as a result, we've built a system where the plausible answers involve translating from one language to another or answering a question. And that's how it sort of become a general broad attack on AI.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-12-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":19,"time":"14:26","seconds":866,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I think a lot of engineers listening would love to know your thoughts on benchmarks and how they should be thinking about basically getting their graveyard of AI prototypes into actually shipped production. Is it a wait for better models situation? Is it a pick a better model based off X benchmark? Or do we need to kind of fundamentally rethink the architecture in here?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":20,"time":"14:48","seconds":888,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"A couple great questions in there. One has to do with, what should we think about benchmarks? And the other is, to what extent should we just wait for Model M plus one to solve the problems of Model M? And on the benchmarks front, I think this is one of these scenarios where a lot of people feel like the only thing worse than the benchmarks we have would be to not have benchmarks. the history of artificial intelligence, there have been major advances since we moved towards a very data-driven, metric-driven hill climbing, where we measured one approach versus another based on how well they did. But of course, You got to get your metrics right. Not having a metric means you can be making a progress. Having the wrong metric means you can be diluting yourself into how much progress you're making or what kind of progress you're making. And the biggest challenge with metrics traditionally has been that at first they represent, you know, someone's guess at what the important problem is, and then full climb around a metric becomes a game in and of itself. And that that has several problems, one of which is maybe that metric doesn't represent what you actually want to improve. Another problem is you start to learn that data set. And we can talk about what that means to be overfitting a dataset because there's a lot of ways to overfit other than you accidentally trained on your test data. And so what will happen is the benchmarks kind of lose potency over time and also they're probably measuring the wrong thing in the first place. It's very hard to get that right.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":21,"time":"16:33","seconds":993,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So if benchmarks today are becoming counterproductive at times, what's truly going wrong and how do we fix it?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":22,"time":"16:41","seconds":1001,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"You know, I think there's sort of two aspects to it. One is, you know, when they do crash tests on cars and like most cars pass with flying colors and every now and then they'll introduce a new one and most cars will not pass with flying colors because they've optimized to make sure that the tests are covered. That doesn't mean the underlying issues, the tests we're getting at are all covered. So that's one challenge in benchmarks in general. But then there's sort of qualitative issues, like for example, Today in agentic systems, one of the common things, for example, if you take a benchmark like Tau, one of the common things people do is they'll say, all right, well, this contains a bunch of scenarios. I'll run my model on all of these scenarios. I get some right, I'll get some wrong. How well did I do? Well, obviously, more right is better, right? And setting aside all issues of, we can come back to particular issues of how people tend to overfit these things. Even just the idea, how many of these scenarios did I get right, is probably not what you want in an enterprise context. In an enterprise context, you want something like, for how many of these scenarios will I get it right every time, a hundred times in a row, in such a way that I could ship a product that covered that scenario? Because if you have one system that gets sort of 80% of the things right, 90% of the things right, we can't really ship those things. Because if 1 in 10 customers gets You know, you know, you, you tell them you booked their flight, but you didn't like, that's, that's a real, that's like, that's a, that's a showstopper. But if you have some other system that gets 70% of the scenarios right every single time, no matter how they're approached, well, that's hugely valuable. And so a metric like that isn't measuring consistency in a way that would help you line up with what can be shipped. And that's sort of independently of the fact that over time, you know, there are other issues with metrics getting saturated, even when systems aren't necessarily making progress.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":23,"time":"18:40","seconds":1120,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, I had, I had a Hamel Hussain on the podcast last year, which was a great episode on evals for anyone interested. And he argued for this idea of mindset over metrics when it comes to AI engineering. And you're basically saying something related, but differentiated here, which is that we need to be thinking about benchmarks at different tiers, almost of does this relate to actually delivering value? What's the risk of contamination? You know, we alluded to that. And it's pretty clear that there is this widespread, I think, challenge around one, contamination in variety of forms, and two, around benchmarks that are nebulous or not necessarily important to delivering real world value. And maybe that relates back to kind of where we started the conversation, talking about the challenges of going from demo to enterprise production. Are we simply going after the wrong problems to some extent?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":24,"time":"19:39","seconds":1179,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"Yeah, I think in some cases we are. You know, for example, at Scaled Cognition, our model APQ1, the thing we are focused on is building a model that can reliably and repeatedly do the right thing and follow policies and avoid hallucinations. And for us, the important thing is knowing that if it does something, it's going to do every variation of it. Correct. And so when we have metrics internally, we're very focused on that sort of like that sort of reliability. And I think every company needs to decide what they need and make sure the metrics actually capture that because you can very easily convince yourself that something is going to meet your needs when it's not.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":25,"time":"20:27","seconds":1227,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Let's talk about APT1 and your decision to build a model from scratch. You designed it for actions instead of tokens. What does that actually mean in practice and how is APT1 actually architecturally different in a way that makes it more reliable for enterprises?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":26,"time":"20:44","seconds":1244,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"Yeah, it's a it's a great question. So I mean, I think part of the core problem with a standard LLM is a lack of a lack of semantics. So the prompt is a control surface. It's just a bunch of words, and maybe some of them are in all caps, and some of them have exclamation marks, and you don't really know what you're gonna get from a prompt. And this leads to sort of this general prompt and pray approach, which is not really, it's not a reliable path to a technology that you can ship.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":27,"time":"21:21","seconds":1281,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"Then on the output, what are you getting out? You're getting tokens, which tokens? Who knows? And so you can be empirical about it. You can say, I ran this and I tended to get X or I tended to get Y. But it's very hard to make any kind of statement about what the system can or can't do. And we think in computer science, a lot of our ability to ship things in high stakes environments really grounds out the ability to able to say this can't happen or if this happens this will always happen and so we just came to this realization that you are fundamentally limited operating just in terms of tokens in and tokens out that tokens don't have semantics but actions do right an action can be allowed or not information flows one way or another way and that um really um what you need is you need a system which, who sort of structure, that sort of architectural structure of that system lines up with the needs that you're gonna place on it. And if all you need is a stream of tokens, then sort of an autoregressive token predictor is great. But if you need to be taking actions, activating a bunch of APIs and certain data flows where there's restrictions on where information can come and go, and like suddenly you need more than just hints through a prompt. And so our model is designed with a different architecture, there are different control surfaces, and it allows you to make much stronger guarantees about what it will do. And that, of course, requires that you make a bunch of changes along the way, the data has to be different, the model has to be different. In deployment, you need a different stack and so on, but you need to do a lot of work. But ultimately,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":28,"time":"23:10","seconds":1390,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"trying to coerce these sort of noisy token based models into having crisp,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":29,"time":"23:20","seconds":1400,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"robust, guaranteed semantics, it's just, that is just a challenging design pattern to try to build a reliable technology out of unreliable pieces, and it's just not necessary.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":30,"time":"23:33","seconds":1413,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] So you've mentioned a few different major variations from, let's call it the traditional approach to LLMs right now. So one, data, that sounds like you're treating data differently. Two, model architecture. And three, it sounds like you're training approach as well. Can you expand","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-23-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":31,"time":"23:52","seconds":1432,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-23-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":32,"time":"23:52","seconds":1432,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] on the data piece first? If conversations aren't just text, you've got the human with their goals and the context provided there, and the agents are representing some other entity with different goals, and then you have your backend tools that you're looking to call and APIs. How do you create the right data for this training set?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-23-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":33,"time":"24:14","seconds":1454,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"[OVERLAP] it's such an important question. I think one of the things, the word, the word agentic gets thrown around. now. What is that? Well, sometimes it seems like everything's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-23-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":34,"time":"24:22","seconds":1462,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] It'll probably be in the episode title for being honest.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-23-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":35,"time":"24:24","seconds":1464,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"better now. Right. So what makes something agentic? Well, a big part of, you know, what does an agent do? An agent takes actions to maximize goals and sort of the classical AI definition. And so people often throw around like, oh, here's a kind of rag-based question answering system. It's agentic. What does that really mean? It means you ask questions in kind of a loop that's maybe conversational. But to me, that's not agentic. To me, agentic means there are going to be goals at play. There's going to be actions, and those actions are going to have consequences. Otherwise, people wouldn't be wanting them to happen. So what does training data have to look like? any agentic interaction of this kind is going to have humans, and of course the humans are speaking natural language with all of its contextual richness. There are going to be actions, APIs, tools, whatever form that takes, which can be taken in general in complex orchestrations. Often to get something done, you need to take a bunch of actions and some well-formed flow. And then there is the agent you're talking to who has their own goals. So if I'm talking to my Sparx speaker and I, you know, ask it to play a song, it's going to play a song. It does what I tell it. When I go to a banking environment, it's not just doing what I tell it, right? There are policies and goals, and it is a conversation interacting my goals, the system's goals, the ambient policies, the APIs. And so it is a complex thing. And one of the things that we spent a long time figuring out is how do you get the data you need that describes what people say in context, based on what they want, how an agent should reply, what actions should be taken, how that telemetry is all connected. And that's data that just doesn't exist. So we had to make it. And you asked about data. That's the piece there. The next piece is, how do you get your model away from only operating in this sort of unspecified token-to-token way? And fundamentally, what current systems are missing is, they're missing, kind of boils down, you know, to use a fancy word, it boils down to metacognition. As a human, somebody asks you a question, you kind of know, you either know the answer or you don't know the answer, or maybe you have a guess, but you're not sure. Systems don't really, do this when they're in like a next token prediction mode. They're just throwing out tokens which are based on the probability of contextual plausibility and so on. And in an agentic situation, you need to know like, okay, can I do that? What information can I do that with? And you have to make decisions about what you do and don't know and what you can and can't do. And so the flow of the actual model itself needs to operate over a different structure, not just cranking out a stream of tokens. And Once you've done that, there's a bunch of advantages because you're operating over the structure. You actually have a distinction in your model between what you do and don't know, what you can and cannot do, as opposed to the situation that gives rise to hallucinations, which is, I generated some tokens and I actually have no idea whether they're right or not. If they're right, we call them truth. And if they're wrong, we call them hallucination. But the model does not internally distinguish between those. A metacognitive model does. Where did this information come from? Where is it allowed to go? And so on.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":36,"time":"28:02","seconds":1682,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It's interesting hearing this perspective on really breaking down how to think about a model because I think often we just treat a model like a black box that does a thing and we hope it's right and we try to give it the right data to make it more right. But even when we are doing things like evaluations and we are measuring for hallucinations, there is this element of challenge around ground truth, and it makes it hard to do evils effectively if you don't know what your ground truth is. And we're also very, as you pointed out, opinionated about what hallucination is when we think it's wrong, whereas when it has essentially still hallucinated something else, it's still making it up, it's just got the answer right. Uh, we are like, Oh, great. You got the answer, right? We're happy. You know, obviously you can feed, you know, just in time information and help drive better responses there. There are plenty of things you can do here, but how are you using APT one, the model that you've built to try to structurally guarantee a higher degree of accuracy, as you put it earlier.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":37,"time":"29:12","seconds":1752,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"That's a great question. So I would say the fundamental thing that's different is because APT is architected around information and actions,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":38,"time":"29:24","seconds":1764,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"and it has that, in that sense, this metacognitive ability of tracking its information and moving that around, it really just gives you And it gives information and actions and actual first class status in the model. When we talk about hallucinations, like what is a hallucination? Like for a word that's thrown around, it's actually pretty unclear what people mean. So for example, we'd probably say it's a hallucination if you had a rag system and you retrieved the answer. And then the system went ahead and said something different than the answer. What does that actually mean? Like maybe it reworded it, but it still means roughly the same thing. Where's the line? And so for as important as hallucinations are, I think people don't do enough of drilling into what causes them. What are they? How would we architect our models differently as we've done to avoid huge classes of them? And, um, And I think that's, I think that comes a little bit from like anthropomorphizing these models, that when it tells you something that's not true, you're like, oh, it's hallucinating. It's lying. It's not doing any of this. It's always guessing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":39,"time":"30:31","seconds":1831,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-27-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":40,"time":"30:31","seconds":1831,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"[OVERLAP] Many guesses are correct. Many guesses are not correct. And we add these labels. If the system had some explicit notion of the truth and made a choice to not use it, well, that might be a deception. But that's not what these systems are doing. They're just putting tokens out there and sometimes they're the wrong tokens. And it is very hard to architect reliability into a fundamentally noisy system. That's why we've built our system that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-27-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":41,"time":"30:56","seconds":1856,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"What are the different classes of hallucinations you've been able to avoid with APT1?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":42,"time":"31:02","seconds":1862,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"way. Yeah, it's a great question. And it's really funny because when we go and we often we're talking to enterprises and they will tell us, yeah, we're not happy with this existing solution, this other model, because the hallucination rate is way too high for us to be comfortable shipping. And we'll look at it. And what's funny is hallucinations are a bit of an iceberg in the sense that they see these hallucinations and rightly are worried about them. But when we go in and we actually look, often the hallucination is Often the hallucination rate is five times that. And that's because there are different kinds of hallucinations, many of which they're just hard to detect, right? Because if it's plausible enough, it's going to be indistinguishable from the truth. And one of my biggest fears with the road that we're going down with these sort of token-based autoregressive LLMs that do not have any additional semantic pairing structure is that ultimately we talk about plausibility engines. I worry that we are increasingly building systems that generate output that is indistinguishable from the truth. that is not a good situation to be in, right? And historically, when systems make mistakes, their output is distinguishable as such. And now it can be very, very hard. You go to, you know, you go to a system that's backed by an LLM, you ask a question, you get an answer, and it sounds totally solid. But sometimes people will notice a hallucination. So one kind is just like a factual mismatch. You ask for your bank account balance, and it gives you a number, and it's not your actual balance. together the tokens and they don't happen to correspond to the truth but then there are hallucinations like It tells you a refund policy that is a refund policy. It's maybe even a plausible and common one. It's just not your refund policy or it's your refund policy, but maybe for someone with a different, you know, frequent flyer status or something like that. And when you look at these as a developer and you're like, okay, okay, let's look, let's, let's look through this, this output. Okay. Looks right. It looks right and is right are not the same. It is very hard to detect hallucinations when they are packaged up sufficiently fluently. So one of the tools that we ended up building, mostly because we need our data to be clean, but we built this really rich suite of evaluation tools, which dig for hallucinations. And you find all kinds of stuff that looked close enough to true that people thought that part was right. And they got upset about some hallucination. They only see the egregious ones. they see the ones that are detectable. And I think that is a really big issue with AI technologies more generally, is that their mistakes can be very hard to detect for humans.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":43,"time":"33:50","seconds":2030,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Another interesting element of all this is besides the differentiated architecture, besides the differentiated approach here, you built your prototype model for under $11 million, which is a fraction of what the Frontier Labs are spending. What does that say about the path forward around this push for bigger models? Where do you think the axis of improvement is?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":44,"time":"34:16","seconds":2056,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"So","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":45,"time":"34:18","seconds":2058,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"[OVERLAP] whenever you scale things up, scale is usually good, right? When you scale up models, particularly in machine learning, they do tend to get better. And of course, since then, our more recent models are increasingly large. When you scale things up, they do improve. But they tend, on whatever axis you're scaling, there are eventually going to be diminishing returns. So we got really great gains by training on more and more of the web until we sort of, as a community, exhausted the high-quality material on the web. And we can come back to that if you want. But pretty much any direction you take a technology in terms of scale, it'll go up, but with diminishing returns. When you can head off in an orthogonal direction, you aren't yet to the point of diminishing returns with those new ideas. And so rather than technology always following this path where things just kind of grow and grow and grow without bound, which is often how it can seem if you are outside the development of that technology. Most technology is much more like a sequence of ideas, each building on the last and bringing you from a new operating point to another one, to a new scaling law. And so, for example, you see this in chip development, where it wasn't just packing more transistors. There was idea after idea after idea that kept the improvements of computation increasing. And the same thing in AI, like pulling in more and more of the web is great, but eventually you run out and you need some new idea. And I do think often people have trouble telling at the beginning of a new technology whether it's an exponential curve they're on or an S-curve. And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-31-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":46,"time":"35:53","seconds":2153,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Ugh.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-31-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":47,"time":"35:54","seconds":2154,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"[OVERLAP] people think it's an exponential curve. It's always an S-curve. And eventually, as that starts to flatten out, you want to go in a new direction. So what direction did we go in? We went in a direction that moved away from this token-based view of the world into a kind of richer model space and You know, as a result, of course, we needed data. What was able to drive that and took us a long time to get right was to basically figure out how to do for conversational AI what RL has done for things like game playing or math or code more recently and how to generate that data. Because that's something that's very easy to do if you want to build a system for playing a combinatorial game like Chess or Go. It's a lot harder if you want to build data that is going to show you how to do agentic AI. So that's why the data is very important. But by taking the model in a different direction, we're able to get on a different operating curve. Because the current operating curve is primarily about breadth, and about a sort of horizontal broad intelligence, the ability to do specific vertical capabilities is incidental. And that can be powerful because it, as it gets better, it's kind of getting better at a lot of things, but it can just be incredibly inefficient on many axes in terms of it's just hard to get very far because of diminishing returns. It can be expensive to deploy. Now, I sort of think about this as like, um, Here's an example, you want to learn French, and so you just start reading books in English. And every now and then, there's some French words, and you write it down. And eventually, in the limit of just unlimited English books, you'll learn some French. But one, this is very wasteful. This is definitely not the efficient way. And two, you maybe won't actually learn the full space of","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-31-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":48,"time":"37:45","seconds":2265,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] My grammar","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-31-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":49,"time":"37:46","seconds":2266,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"[OVERLAP] French.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-31-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":50,"time":"37:46","seconds":2266,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] might be pretty","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-31-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":51,"time":"37:47","seconds":2267,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-31-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":52,"time":"37:47","seconds":2267,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] crap, or merde,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-31-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":53,"time":"37:48","seconds":2268,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"[OVERLAP] exactly.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-31-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":54,"time":"37:48","seconds":2268,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I should","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-31-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":55,"time":"37:48","seconds":2268,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"[OVERLAP] And,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-31-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":56,"time":"37:49","seconds":2269,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"say.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":57,"time":"37:49","seconds":2269,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"and, and so you're like, there's not this narrow little slice at great expense. And so what we've done instead is we've said, if you want to be incredibly reliable, we're going to build a model that is architected around reliability. And I really do think one of the emerging trends we're going to see is there going to be some things where there's horizontal intelligence. is really great having wide ranging conversations that match on different topics. And there's going to be places where much more vertical capabilities are going to be important, making sure that whether it's medical or banking or something like that, making sure that the system is doing, is doing the right thing, is following the rules and is not going to hallucinate and mess up an action where that's going to have a high cost. And I think those are just different operating points. And that's important. There's not just one curve.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":58,"time":"38:39","seconds":2319,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"This conversation around S-curves and where we're at deserves quite a bit of time. And we're going to get back to it, but I don't want to lose a thread that you brought up, which is this idea of, you know, studying, training LLMs off of, you know, chess or Go. the self-play approach. And there is a ton of research that shows that, you know, when we apply RLs, you mentioned earlier, we say, OK, great, go play 500 games of chess and all the ones that you win, we're going to, you know, uprank those a little bit and you'll slowly get better over time. Thanks to Galileo for sponsoring this episode. Their new 165-page comprehensive guide to mastering multi-agent systems is freely available on their website at galileo.ai and provides you the lens you need to understand when multi-agent systems add value versus single-agent approaches, how to design them efficiently, and how to build reliable systems that work in production. Download it for free at the link in the show description to discover how to continuously improve your AI agents, identify and avoid common coordination pitfalls, master context engineering for agent collaboration, measure performance with multi-agent metrics, and much more.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":59,"time":"39:57","seconds":2397,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"[OVERLAP] I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-34-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":60,"time":"39:57","seconds":2397,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] That can work. We've seen it improve quite a bit in a variety of systems. I mean, there's a recent AlphaGo, you know, learned by playing bad games of Go against itself. But how did you make this work for conversations with an agentic model where there isn't a zero-sum winner to pick?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-34-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":61,"time":"40:15","seconds":2415,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"think this is, in general, I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":62,"time":"40:19","seconds":2419,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"could take a step back and talk a little bit about what makes RL powerful. RL is all about doubling down on the things that work and doing less of the things that aren't working. And it's really that simple. And there are a bunch of mathematical ways to approach that. And there are a bunch of different kinds of data collection environments that all really qualify as RL, but they all have this property of try various things and go in the direction of the things that are working. So if you're playing Go or chess, even if you don't know how to play well, even if you're playing yourself, even if you're moving randomly, one side wins, one side loses. And that means you have a gradient, the one side was better than the other. And in that game, the reason you were able to do that rollout is because the rules of the game were crisp, you might not know what good move is, but you know what the legal moves are. And the outcome of the game is clearly defined. And in In that sense, you might need to play a lot of games to get good at chess or Go, but you have a gradient default. If you want to be using RL outside of that, and people do, and they, you know, if you use RL for something, whether it's code or math or something like that, the key properties that have made RL work is when we can figure out what is the actual reward function we're climbing. And that can be hard when it's not who won and who lost. And then what makes a well-formed instance this is as you mentioned it's easiest for a combinatorial game it's next easiest for something like math where if you find a solution you can sort of then plug that into a theorem prover or something to verify it or something like that and when you want to apply it elsewhere the thing that typically holds people back is synthesizing data does not mean synthesizing good data in general if you have a model build data and then train on the data like you may not actually have gotten anywhere. And so what we had to think about really hard was, in this situation, what's going on? There is a user, there's an agent, there are APIs, there are policies and rules, and there are goals. And how we can do simulation of that in a way that we can take it and put it in an RL setting and then drive the training of the model. So part of that is getting the data simulation, part of that is making sure quality is high enough. It's making sure the data has the right structure to then feed into this kind of model. And there are a lot of pieces to that. But at the core, it is the same thing. It's just, it has been a challenging problem to the research community to apply these sorts of methods outside of these very sort of discrete combinatorial domains. And that's one of the big things that we've been able to do in building our","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":63,"time":"43:05","seconds":2585,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] super super interesting. I love the breakdown of basically how to set up a RL instance in a less clear domain as well. I think that'll be really interesting for a lot of our listeners. I want to get back to this S-curve piece that you brought up. You know essentially I think what you're saying is You know, we spent a lot of time having LLMs consume decades of human knowledge that was","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-36-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":64,"time":"43:31","seconds":2611,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"[OVERLAP] Right?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-36-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":65,"time":"43:31","seconds":2611,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] sitting in digital form. We helped them structure it. We've created some synthetic data to help supplement it. And this created this massive phase change as we threw more and more compute at it and more and more data. But we have now kind of hit a saturation point where, okay, like, yeah, we can keep throwing more compute at this problem. Yeah, there are techniques we can do to make things more efficient. But it's hard for us to scale quality data at the level we need to. Synthetic data will only get us so far. I'm putting words in your mouth, but here's kind of my summation so far. So if we've","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-36-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":66,"time":"44:07","seconds":2647,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"[OVERLAP] I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-36-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":67,"time":"44:07","seconds":2647,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] run through most of that golden data, what comes next? Is it just getting better at synthetic data? Is it something else?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-36-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":68,"time":"44:17","seconds":2657,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"[OVERLAP] do think it's a really important thing to realize when you look at how rapidly LLMs have sort of burst onto the scene and brought this kind of horizontal intelligence. It's a noisy intelligence, but like it's very broad. into play, and it seems like it happened overnight in a lot of ways. But I do think it's important to recognize that although this is very reductive, there's a lot of things that go into training these models, at the core they are a condensation of the web, right? And It took us some number of years here to figure out how to scale everything up to the point where you could just kind of compress the web down, but that's basically what drives them. And that's also why, to a large degree, lots of different models have pretty similar capabilities and behaviors, because to a certain degree, they all do share that same connotation of the web. what people do beyond that, the data and usage may then diverge. But that core is the same for many of the models that are out there. And, well, how long does it take to train a model like that? Oh, maybe it takes a week or something. How long does it take to, did it take us to scale up the machinery? Well, it took a couple of years for that. But how long did it take to write down all that human knowledge in this readable form. Well, that's been like 30 years of writing things down on the web. And then","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-36-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":69,"time":"45:45","seconds":2745,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-36-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":70,"time":"45:45","seconds":2745,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"[OVERLAP] how","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-36-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":71,"time":"45:45","seconds":2745,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] even","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-36-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":72,"time":"45:45","seconds":2745,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"[OVERLAP] long","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-36-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":73,"time":"45:45","seconds":2745,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"more before that, that just made its way onto the web.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":74,"time":"45:48","seconds":2748,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"did it take people to discover that knowledge in the first place? Millennia. And so it really is a case that even before LLMs were here, people were already learning things kind of distilling that down into language to put it into books, taking those, those books, making them digitally available, getting them onto Wikipedia, like, you know, all of this process. just let us tap into this vast structured representation of human knowledge. Because every time we write down something we know in a book, that's a structured representation of human knowledge. Language is the abstractions that we have developed over millennia for communicating that knowledge compactly and having the right abstractions and the right mechanisms for communicating about them. And so it was kind of already there. And it's not that our, when people just scale up the kind of obvious autoregressive thing, it's not, when we talk about hitting diminishing returns, a lot of that is just, there's no more books to read, right? There's no more, like, why are they gonna get to the next level of theoretical physics theories? Well, you know, when somebody writes a book and throws it on the web, they will definitely get there. And the question is, what do you do with the fact that once you've consumed all of the declarative knowledge on the web, the golden stuff is kind of used up. So you mentioned synthetic data. Synthetic data can be very effective or very ineffective depending on the situation. So in a case like Go, synthetic data is great. In a case where models just kind of throwing together some output and you hope it's correct, it's probably gonna be too noisy. Like it's very important that the synthetic data be the right kind, that it be clean, that you be learning the right way with the right structure and architecture. And so there's a lot of things you gotta do right to get synthetic stuff to work. But yeah, we've really just gone through a lot of that core data. And so what you're gonna see, every technology sort of, it's always the same super cycle. It always looks like this. People are, people are stuck. They're working on, they're grinding forward on some benchmark, on, on some criterion and things are getting a little bit better, but the systems are getting complicated and it's hard to make progress. And, and then some new technology comes out. Like, oh, let's build a giant R regressive neural net. And suddenly a lot of Suddenly a lot of benchmarks start falling and this new technology, it's kind of great at all kinds of things. And it's broadly breaking records and it's this explosive advance. And not only that, it's doing it more simply than the systems people had before. Or you look like old machine translation systems in the neural system, like it's better and it's simpler. And so this new technology comes out and people are like, that's it. Like we're on this exponential curve. And then that starts to level out because there's diminishing returns from that idea. And then people start saying, well, how do we get better? How do we get past the limitations of this new idea? And then often the answer is you're missing something. Sometimes that's something you threw out from the last cycle. So for example, AI was very much based on like representation and search, like if I had natural language, I would take a sentence, I would parse that sentence, or I'd take my machine translation input, I would carve it up and move it around according to some rules. And then suddenly everything was replaced with this purely data-driven autoregressive system, and things got better. But then people are like, well, maybe we could do better than this by having some structure to what we try, and maybe we'll try a couple things and use the one that works, which is sort of the simplest version of a reasoning model. Well, I guess that used to be the only thing we did was do this combinatorial search over stuff and see what worked. And so what will happen is you don't get the exponential curve, you get beginning of the S-curve looks exponential, it levels off. And then some new idea, which may well be a reincarnation of an old idea, comes in to take you to the next step and then the next step and the next step. And ultimately our technologies all follow this pattern. And we're at that point now where just scaling up, it's not that it will never help, but the S-curve is leveled off and the big gains are going to come from new ideas that are orthogonal to what we're doing already.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":75,"time":"50:07","seconds":3007,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"one of those ideas that is being widely discussed is reasoning models.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":76,"time":"50:14","seconds":3014,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"What's your take on reasoning models and their potential to accelerate AI development again?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":77,"time":"50:22","seconds":3022,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"Reasoning models can be really powerful where they apply. They don't apply everywhere. So they're good at a couple things. They're good. And of course, like, just like RLM is many things under an umbrella, reasoning models are many approaches under an umbrella. So like a oversimplification, like a caricature of a reasoning model might be try a bunch of things and pick the one that worked. Well, when does that, when is that better than the kind of baseline alternative. Well, when you can tell which one worked. So for like a lock and key problem, try a bunch of tactics to prove this. But once I find the right tactic, the proof goes through. That's why reasoning can be powerful for math, because trying multiple things is valuable. You can tell which one worked. Other reasoning models are are kind of more focused on figuring out how to do things for the first time. That can be powerful. It can also be totally unnecessary. So if you think about humans and how we go around in the world and take actions which we hope are intelligent, Sometimes we are thinking very hard about, like within our model of the world, we're planning, we're thinking, and we're doing a lot of sort of advanced thought about what we're going to do. And then we go try to do things. That's good for when you're figuring something out for the first time. But once you've done something a couple times, you just know how to do it. And what used to be computation and planning becomes memory and experience. And now you can do it without solving the problem again. And in general, we don't want our AI models solving the problem again every time from scratch. Maybe that's great if you're the one selling tokens, because it burns tokens, but you want to ultimately, in humans, that's eventually compiled into our memories, into our environments. We have signs everywhere in the world, so we don't have to search the world every time. We just write down what was at the end of that hallway or whatever.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":78,"time":"52:29","seconds":3149,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"But then humans take this even further. there's like a chip of rock flying at your face, you just blink, you don't stop and think, huh, it would be bad if this rock hit my eye, I can move my head, I can close my eye, you don't do that, you just blink. And so as humans, we use different amounts of computation and meta-computation based on the situation we're in. Reasoning is a very particular kind of use of test-time computation, which works for some problems and absolutely is not the right solution for others, and that's your only goal is to sell tokens.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":79,"time":"53:04","seconds":3184,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I'm curious to dig a bit more into the verticalization piece you brought up earlier. So you mentioned that one of the areas that scaled cognition has focused early on has been regulated industries with the idea","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-42-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":80,"time":"53:21","seconds":3201,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"[OVERLAP] I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-42-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":81,"time":"53:21","seconds":3201,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] being, okay, this is where there is this high degree of accuracy that is needed. And, you know, APT1 is built with tool calling in mind. You're looking to reduce hallucinations. This feels like a great fit. You know, there's there's low error tolerance. What have you learned from your early deployments?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-42-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":82,"time":"53:42","seconds":3222,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"[OVERLAP] wouldn't say specifically that the thought, the first thought in my head was, well, let's do regulated industries. The first thought in my head was, I want to build models that you can trust. Like, what does that mean? Well, it probably means something about them when they represent information to you that it's true. And that has to do with hallucinations. It probably has something to do with being able to follow instructions. And as we sort of thought through what a model would need to meet this criterion of trustability, which connects to other things. Like I said, it connects to controllability, it connects to auditability and explainability. If you take a standard model and it does something and you say, why did you do that? It will then start spraying tokens at you that like purport to explain why it did that. But like, there's no reason that the explanation actually is isomorphic to the computation in any way in a sort of naive approach. And so that's another thing that we thought really hard about in the model is like, it'd be really great if a model's natural operation was left an auditable trail. And as we started putting these pieces together, we started to notice, well, this is going to line up particularly well with a lot of the needs in regulated industries, where you need to be able to have you know, a traceable, an audible trace of what you've done, and you'd be able to point to where you got the information and what policy you were following. And moreover, like, and more fundamentally, when the system takes actions, because again, an inventive system is one that ultimately takes actions. Those actions were regulated for a reason. They were important to moving people's money around, medical decision making, all of these are regulated for a reason. It's because the mistakes have a very high cost. And when I see that, I think, okay, well, this is a case where I don't need a model which from time to time exhibits some kind of, you know, creative genius. I need a model which will reliably do the right thing every single time. And to me, this is ultimately about trustability and our focus being intelligence is important, but the thing you hear a lot about is super intelligence. I am more focused on super reliability. That's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-42-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":83,"time":"56:17","seconds":3377,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Mmm.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-42-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":84,"time":"56:17","seconds":3377,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"[OVERLAP] a good fit for industries. But one of the things we learned is it turns out pretty much every industry feels like if you take the wrong action, the price is too high, right? Like, okay, it's worse if you make a medical mistake, perhaps, than if you, you know,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-42-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":85,"time":"56:35","seconds":3395,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"charge somebody the wrong amount for an online shopping order. But that also doesn't sound great. Or if you give one person a refund to one policy and then deny it to the next person because you're just making up refund policies on the fly, what enterprise wants that? And so one of the things we found is that the regulated industries were maybe more sophisticated about how they thought about these mistake risks, but that pretty much across the board, all enterprises find it important to be able to trust their systems, to be, to obey controls and to take truthful actions. And that's where we are today.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":86,"time":"57:14","seconds":3434,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Why not just put a second model on top? You know, I use Claude to code this Gemini, you go review the code.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":87,"time":"57:21","seconds":3441,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"you know, to crib the joke about regular expressions, now you have two problems. So you have a model and it's unreliable. And so you bring in another model that's also unreliable to check it. And again, now you have two problems. And so it's sort of a constellation or chain of model kind of approach with models checking models. And it can reduce errors, but","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":88,"time":"57:46","seconds":3466,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"First of all, it's not very effective. So what can happen is, OK, you have multiple models. They can all fail. Sometimes one catches the error. Sometimes it introduces an error. And then you need a third model. And suddenly, things are very complicated. And you've got like 10, 15 models. And everybody's checking everybody else. It's burning a lot of tokens. It's probably taking a lot of time. So it's expensive and it's slow. But worse than that, it's just still very hard to reason about these things. It's hard to guarantee anything out of a set system with this complexity. And ultimately, it just doesn't actually work that well. That's partly because when you, you know, you have a conversation, that conversation may have 20 turns, let's say, Well, if you've got a model that's like 80% right, and it gets checked by a model that's 80% right, and you think, oh, that's pretty good, right? It's a pretty good model checking a pretty good model. But that means, OK, well, 4% of the time you make a mistake, assuming they're independent, which, by the way, they're not. When you have a hard instance, the model and the checker are going to fail in exactly the same cases. So 80% checking 80% is going to be like 82%. Um, but let's just imagine they are independent, but then every single turn of the conversation is another chance to mess up. And it just, the combinatorics just works against you. Sooner or later you mess up, you make a, you know, you make a mistake that ultimately you just, another architecture would have just avoided. So I see those sorts of approaches as fundamentally being an attempt to take the hammer you have. which is this kind of noisy, unreliable, horizontal model, and trying to hit a nail, which is about vertical, reliable, truthful behavior. And it's just a bad fit. So can you take these sort of chaining actions, build constellations and make things a little better? You can, but it just empirically doesn't work very well. And one of the biggest reasons why it doesn't work very well is because, as I said, an instance or a situation which is hard for one model will tend to be hard for all. This is a lesson we've learned in machine learning, sort of technology after technology, decade after decade, which is that when you have multiple systems, you hope for independent errors and you don't get that, you get highly correlated errors. And that really kills this approach. Plus it's slow and it's expensive. It's just not very good in practice.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":89,"time":"1:00:10","seconds":3610,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It definitely gets pricey, which makes for some challenges for sure, especially as you scale.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":90,"time":"1:00:15","seconds":3615,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"And that's why even if you could make this work, it's still better to have a model that in its natural operation doesn't make the mistake in the first place. And that's absolutely one of the advantages of APT1 is it gets it right in its natural operation rather than after seven other models have signed off.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":91,"time":"1:00:34","seconds":3634,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Is there a minimum bar that you think builders should be trying to hit as far as trustworthiness for agentic systems?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":92,"time":"1:00:41","seconds":3641,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"That's a great question. There's definitely minimum bars. I think they maybe move around. So I personally feel like the overall direction is, I am at a societal level that we're building technologies. where nobody knows what to trust. They're going to kind of trust maybe nothing, maybe everything. And that this attitude of, it's AI, maybe it's right, is going to leak out. And people are just going to accept, yep, everything we build is going to be built on Jello. And if there's one thing I want to get out to people, it's you don't have to build on Jello. And when you are building a system that your users are going to be coming to as sort of a representation of an interaction with your enterprise. You don't want it to just like YOLO out something that may or may not work. I think all the bars need to be stricter, but they do vary. So for example, like I said, agenda gets thrown around a lot. A RAG system is not really an agentic system. You ask a question, you get an answer. Probably if somebody asks some FAQ and they get a wrong answer back, that's probably not great. You probably don't want that. You probably prefer a system that isn't going to lie to you. But that's different than giving you the wrong medication or something like that, or lying to you about your account balance, and then you make some very bad financial decision. I think the bar can be a little bit lower. And what you see out there is a lot of people are trying these RAG systems, a very low stakes system, because they just know that the bar needs to be much tighter to actually ship a system that takes actions. We are trying to directly meet that need, which is a real agentic system that's really going to do things. Because once you do things, not all things can be undone and the consequences can be much higher. And so I think you ultimately enterprises and users have to ask themselves, like, what's my tolerance for screwing this up? And if the answer is like, yeah, whatever, then OK, yeah, whatever, ship whatever you want. But if you care, if you have a low tolerance for screwing up whatever product you're shipping, then you need to have tighter guarantees and.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":93,"time":"1:03:02","seconds":3782,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"Ultimately. That's our, first of all, that's our, that's our goal is to provide models that give those guarantees. If you look at, you know, say chatbots that are out there go and you talk to a, an LLM to just have some freewheeling conversation and the things like lying to you probably often that's just how they're architected. Like if they stopped and they said, I don't know. half the time, which is probably the truth, it would be a totally different experience. Maybe it wouldn't be as successful. That's just not how they're built. Even in terms of how they seem to train, like if you ask people what they prefer, if you're driven too much by human preferences, people prefer you to give the answer than to say, I don't know, if they think the answer is true. And often people can't tell. So there's definitely a preference for a certain style of these. It's just not a good fit for enterprises where what you need is a system that for the things it can do, it can do them right and it will do them right every single time. So I think it's just important for people to figure out what is their bar? What is their tolerance risk going up? And are they in a situation where they want guarantees? And if so, they should select an architecture and a model accordingly.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":94,"time":"1:04:07","seconds":3847,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"We've talked a lot in this conversation about, you know, what do builders need to be considering? What do AI engineers need to think about? What do researchers need to think about? What do enterprises need to think about? Those are all important questions. It's, you know, key topics for this show. Much of our audience fits in one of those categories, maybe all. But you raise something that goes beyond this technical idea. What does it mean for society when AI produces output that's perfectly fluent but potentially wrong, and there's no obvious way to tell the difference? What's your perspective?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":95,"time":"1:04:44","seconds":3884,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"Yeah. Like I said, one of my biggest fears is that, as a field, we are building systems which produce outputs indistinguishable from the truth. That can be very corrosive in a lot of ways to society. And there are a couple pieces to that. One is the technology. Like, maybe we should be putting a little more effort into building systems that actually tell you the truth. Systems that even have a first-class notion of whether what they're saying is the truth. So that's sort of the technological side. But I think an equally important, if not more important, is the social side. And it's really ultimately a question of digital literacy and what we're ready for as a society. So in","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":96,"time":"1:05:26","seconds":3926,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"earlier era, in earlier eras of language technologies, typically A few things were different. First of all, you could often tell mistakes. So if you used a machine translation system and the output was not very fluent, that tended to correlate with it being not very faithful. So you're like, I don't know, maybe I don't trust this. There were signs. If you have a technology that always sounds right, but often isn't, it becomes very hard as a user to know what to trust. Another analogy I can draw is if you imagine, you know, how did we find information before the internet? You go to some library and you look things up and each book was, you know, to some degree vetted to the point where it became a book and you did all that searching and then suddenly there was online search and now I could just type my informational need and cut out that whole step. And now web pages would come back to me and One of the things we had to learn is, well, the bar for putting up a webpage with some information is different than the bar for putting together a book and finding a publisher and getting a library to actually buy it. And so the information wasn't as vetted. We had to learn to deal with that. However, it was still the case that when you typed in your search query, you would just get a bunch of possibly relevant documents, and some weren't relevant, and the search engine messed up enough that you knew that. And some of those webpages, like, they didn't look, you know, super trustworthy. And although the search engine automated bringing the sources to you, you ultimately needed to evaluate what was credible and what was not. If you go to chatgpt and you ask a question and you get an answer, this has all been disintermediated. You are simply getting the end product. Maybe it's right, maybe it's not. And the tools that we have developed sociologically, in terms of digital literacy, to tell the difference, do not apply. It's hard to tell what's the source, so you can't check the source. It's hard to build a correlation between disfluent or otherwise suspicious output and the quality of the information, because all the information has been made indistinguishable from the truth. And all of these things combine in, I think, a very dangerous way that gives rise to one of two things. Either people believe all of it equally, or maybe they believe none of it. Neither of those outputs is really great. I think this is a thing where we can do a lot sociologically. We can demand of our technologies that they actually put the information, that they be supportive of vetting to a higher degree than they already are. And That is something we need to navigate as a society. That takes time. These tools are becoming widespread at a faster time horizon than we are able to socially react or push back. to make them have a shape and to give people the understanding that, yeah, that sounds fluent, but that doesn't mean it's right. And it's only going to get worse as we start reinforcement learning more of these technologies, because when you reinforce and learn a system, you tell it","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":97,"time":"1:08:42","seconds":4122,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"not just mimic the web pages, which is not necessarily the truth, you tell it optimize this function. And so, for example, if you have a shipping bot and you tell it optimize customer feedback, or asking for satisfaction or something like that, and you call up and you ask, where's your package? And the system looks it up in the database, and it's lost. And then the system knows, I can say, your package is lost, and then you're going to give me a thumbs down. Or I can say, your package will be there tomorrow, and I'll get a thumbs up. And I was told to get thumbs up. And now, this isn't as lying to you. And now we've actually crossed a line. It's not just that the It's not just that the true and the false look the same because the system can't tell. It's that the system has been explicitly optimized to produce things which are not actually what you want the behavior to be. So there is a whole path here that I think is important for us socially to be very aware of.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":98,"time":"1:09:37","seconds":4177,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It's a really challenging problem. And I would actually argue we're seeing both the trends you mentioned play out in real time, where we have a group of people who have increasingly decided that nothing is real. And I would put this towards like the kind of nihilistic the disbelieving, the conspiratorial, we're seeing this trend massively digitally","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":99,"time":"1:10:01","seconds":4201,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"[OVERLAP] Absolutely.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-56-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":100,"time":"1:10:01","seconds":4201,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] the last few years. And then we have the opposite trend, and I'm not going to get into demographics, but like, you have the credulous, you have those who accept anything at face value, who see any deepfake and don't think to consider, you know, is this something that really happened? They just go, oh, look at this here. At this point, we probably all have a friend who has sent us a video and then gone, oh, gosh, like that was fake or or you look at it and you go, this can't be real. And there's been a few of these that have gone viral as memes. There was the the glass bridge meme that went very viral, I think, around like Soros launch or something like that. There's been a few of these, and I do think our information ecosystem is in real trouble currently. And not only is that a societal challenge, but it's also an informational challenge for LLMs that are continuing to train off the public internet. And it's making it harder and harder for teams who are looking to train models to train systems to identify the right information and to find ground truth. And I do think it's important we acknowledge that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-56-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":101,"time":"1:11:15","seconds":4275,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"Absolutely. And I, to your point, I completely agree that we're seeing both people believing nothing and people believing everything. If a model is sufficiently good at producing plausible output, those are actually the only things you can do, right? To believe only the things that are true requires that there be some leverage into making that discrimination, right? How can you tell what is true from what is not? And as each tool you have to distinguish truth from falsehood is removed by the technology, you are forced into one of those two camps. And that's, that's a big challenge. And I think it's worth pointing out that there are factors beyond just how people interact with information, like just people's use of these technologies encourages. So for example, if you have somebody who is, you know, discover that, oh, hey, wait a minute, instead of writing this like tricky email, I'm just going to stay the email I want. And, you know, a chatbot is going to write it for me, and then I can go send that off, you know, and it's done my work for me. That encourages this, this sort of reliance, this delegation of even the responsibility to the AI. And The way I would look at this is what happens is people think, oh, I used to be an author and now I'm not. Now, now the AI is an author and I just send it on. I think we have better options. Like as a society, we could really try to get people to understand when you use an AI in this way, you have not stopped being like part of the work chain. It's just, you've gone from being an author to being an editor. And while people have much more experience being authors, which they delegate, than being editors, which they just kind of don't have a lot of experience with. And being an editor is in many cases harder than being an author. And so people look at this and they're like, all right, well, I could learn this hard skill, or maybe they don't even realize they could do that hard thing of editing it, or they could just delegate it. And once you do enough of that, and once you start just saying, I'm not even the editor anymore, Suddenly, the system now starts to be that's just what you trust. If you're not editing its result, you're trusting its work over your own abilities. And that is corrosive in a supplementary way to the same issue that you were raising.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":102,"time":"1:13:33","seconds":4413,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I think Dan and I could probably go on on this topic for another 30 minutes, but we've already been chatting for 70-ish, so I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":103,"time":"1:13:41","seconds":4421,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"OK.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":104,"time":"1:13:42","seconds":4422,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"want to be cognizant of his time. This is a bit of a sour note for us here, where we've talked a lot about these interesting technologies, we've talked a lot about their flaws. And I think we both share this worry about, you know, there's a lot to be done to make sure this works out on the positive. There's so much positive that AI can do for us. There's so much it can help us do in the world, but we're not being consistent about that yet. So what I'd love to ask you as we wrap up here is, where are you inspired today by what's happening in AI research and AI development? Where do you think we have major opportunities?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":105,"time":"1:14:17","seconds":4457,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"It's a great question. What I am personally most passionate about is, and the answer is the same, whether I'm talking about from an academic research perspective or from our mission, which is I am inspired about building models, which you can trust. And that means building models that are controllable, that are truthful, and where you can place guarantees about what they will do and sometimes more importantly, what they won't do. And being able to bring that sort of technology into the world, I think is very important. to having AI that can be a force for good. Because I think a precondition to that is having that trust, the reliability, the robustness, and the control. That is the core of what I think about all the time. How can we build models that have these properties?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":106,"time":"1:15:30","seconds":4530,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I know a lot of that thinking is going into what you've built over at Scaled Cognition, which everyone can check out at scaledcognition.com. But where else, Dan, can folks find you on the internet to learn more about your research, to hear your perspective? Where should they follow you?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":107,"time":"1:15:45","seconds":4545,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"Like you said, if you're interested in what we do at Scaled Cognition, scalecognition.com. If you want to check out the work that comes out of my academic group at Berkeley, you can look up the NLP group at UC Berkeley. And, you know, I think it's really interesting how AI has changed in the course of even my career and certainly over AI existing. Originally, the biggest challenge with AI is nothing worse. That was the problem is everything worked too badly. And now a lot of the challenges are places where things are working, where they're having downstream consequences because of what they can do. And so I just really want to encourage people to be thinking about these issues, you don't have to build important systems on Jello. You don't have to accept that you either believe everything or nothing. We can take actions to improve digital literacy, we can take actions to push the technologies we build to have better properties and not just accept them the way they are. And to me, that's really the most important thing is tools you can trust. And that's really where we're focused.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":108,"time":"1:17:01","seconds":4621,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Dan, thank you so much for the time today. It's been a great conversation. I really appreciate you for bringing so many great insights and for the wide ranging thought process you've provided. I hope our listeners, I'm quite confident our listeners will love this episode. So thank you so much.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":109,"time":"1:17:16","seconds":4636,"speaker":"Dan Klein","text":"Thank you so much for having me. It's been, it's been a ton of fun.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein","episode":54,"guid":"c07947c1-7d33-4ff4-94dc-fb7f416a4baf","episodeTitle":"Why LLMs Are Plausibility Engines, Not Truth Engines | Dan Klein, Scaled Cognition","publishedAt":"2026-04-08","segmentIndex":110,"time":"1:17:18","seconds":4638,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I'm so glad you can say that. We always love to hear that. And for everyone who is listening, if you haven't already signed up for our newsletter at newsletter.chainofthought.show, make sure you sign up to ensure you are getting all the best of this show and deep dive essays into some of the topics we discussed here, like the god 6,600 word essay I wrote about block and AI layoffs and what that all means. If you want more thoughts from our guests, if you want more thoughts from me, that is a place to go. Other than that, thank you so much for listening and be sure to leave us a comment and let us know what you thought about the episode, whether that's on YouTube, Spotify, LinkedIn, or wherever else you like to interact with Chain of Thought. We appreciate you immensely. Thank you for listening to another episode.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/54-why-llms-are-plausibility-engines-not-truth-engines-dan-klein/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"Memory is the last battleground for anyone that operates in the AI stack. And here's what I mean. Everyone is trying to solve memory. Database companies, model providers, everyone has got a say on how memory should be modeled in a genetic systems. But a single developer can build a memory system that can remember better than a chat GPT.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:28","seconds":28,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"We are back on Chain of Thought, everyone. I am your host, Conor Bronsdon, Head of Technical Ecosystem at Modular. Before we dive in, a quick thank you to our presenting sponsors, Galileo. Check them out at Galileo.ai for your AI eval needs and much more. My guest today is really fantastic, honestly, and that is Richmond Alake. Richmond is Director of AI Developer Experience at Oracle. He's one of the most serious technical voices on agent memory right now. His AI Engineer World's Fair talk on architecting agent memory recently crossed 100,000 views, which may leak to some listeners where I'm recording this and when. But he also built the open source Memo RIS library, and he's been running 100 days of agent memory series that has produced some of the most concrete examples and implementation content I've seen on the topic. Not to mention, he also co-created a chorus with Andrew Ng, which is not a small thing. Richmond, welcome. Where are you joining me from today?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":2,"time":"1:28","seconds":88,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"joining in from the outskirts of London in a place called Hertfordshire and yeah, in the UK.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:35","seconds":95,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Richmond, I have to thank you for coming on, not just because I always love chatting with you, but you bring so much more charisma to this show simply from your tone of voice compared to most of my American guests. Sorry to them, but we can all be honest here. Great to see you. You have been diving into agent memory and have such a depth of knowledge on this topic. Most agent failures are being blamed on models, but often the corporate is the memory, the context, or the lack of it. But what's your actual claim around agent memory? Why does memory engineering deserve its own name, its own categorization, separate from prompt engineering or context engineering?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":4,"time":"2:23","seconds":143,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, that's a good question. So thanks for having me on the Channel 4 podcast. It's going to be great. We're going to have a very good conversation. One thing around, to answer your question, why does memory engineering deserve its own sort of attention? And it's really because over the years, I've spent some time in database companies. I'm an AI guy in a database world. And one thing I've learned from speaking to teams building AI solutions is the failures that they have and the difficulty that they have is all around their retrieval pipelines. It's all around how optimal the RAG pipeline is, what retrieval techniques are you using, the quality of the information you're getting from your databases. And these are the conversations I was having and I started to realize that a lot of the agent engineers that are coming into the space, a lot of the AI engineers, AI developers, actually don't have that database knowledge. And to be honest, some","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-3-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":5,"time":"3:29","seconds":209,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-3-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":6,"time":"3:29","seconds":209,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] of them don't even want to learn that, right? But when you are able to communicate the importance of memory in agents and then really define the job to be done in a way that AI engineers and agent engineers understand and care about, you start to get into the world of memory engineering. It's very simple to understand, but it's nothing new. It's actually an intersection between a bunch of roles that we have today. It's an intersection between data engineering, database engineering, software engineering, agent engineering, and then you have this set of developers are focused on how to implement systems that learn and remember and adapt. Those are your memory engineers.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-3-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":7,"time":"4:20","seconds":260,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And it seems like you see a clear progression here from prompt engineering to context engineering to memory engineering. Why this differentiation and what's your recommendation to developers who are thinking through these topics? How should they approach each one differently?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":8,"time":"4:40","seconds":280,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"Yeah, so there are multiple dimensions to why the differentiation. So we can start from, let's look at job descriptions, right? The reason why you want a differentiation in terms of what your developers are doing is because when you're hiring for the developer, you want to explain what they're going to be doing on the job. So if, for example, with prompt engineering, people understood it as","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":9,"time":"5:05","seconds":305,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"just writing a bunch of prompts, some magic words that will let the LLM behave in a certain way. But that's not the job that you ended up doing, because what you ended up doing was building RAG pipelines and actually looking at things like AI evals, evaluating your RAG pipelines, learning a bit about more on the context engineering side, and working with tools like LangChain, LlamaIndex, ASAC, you actually don't do that much prompting anymore, especially with the increased capabilities of the reasoning models now. So One, really clearly defining the job to be done is one of the key advantages of really splitting up these roles into several distinct engineering disciplines. So that's the first one, job description. Two, just having the people in the field understand what you bring to the table. Right? So when I tell people, or when I saw the term context engineering becoming more popular, and the definition around context engineering is actually systematically selecting the context you put into the context window of an NLM while being aware of its limitation and constraints. that explain a more sophisticated job to be done in comparison to prompt engineering, right? Because now you're starting to explain to developers or people that are outside of the role, then when you look at When you look at context engineering, if you look at the definition itself, it's basically the systematic selection of information you put into the context window while being aware of the constraints of an LLM. So it really communicates to people that This is an engineering discipline. It's going to be bogged down in principles and design patterns and all of the richness of the software engineering disciplines that we've had over the years. It's not going to be a very simple task to be done, right? Then when you go into memory engineering, this now talks about The term itself really encapsulates the fact that whatever engineer chooses to define themselves as a memory engineer, it tells people that you are very concerned with the abilities of these AI systems to remember and adapt, right? It means that's what you're communicating to people, right? So those are why the disciplines and the distinct forms of the disciplines are important.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":10,"time":"7:57","seconds":477,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"What about the failure mode? So obviously we've heard about context poisoning. What's the failure modes that you are seeing really impact people as they build their agents but fail to realize the depth of the memory engineering they need to get done?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":11,"time":"8:13","seconds":493,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"One of the failure modes, it's usually at the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":12,"time":"8:20","seconds":500,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] mental model you apply to how you're building your agent, right? And that is not using, not thinking memory first. That's a top failure mode, right? Not applying the right mental model. You're not thinking memory first. Memory should be a first class primitive in your systems that you're building. If you want them to actually perform well in production and you want humans to use it for longer rising tasks, just long communication, long interaction, then you need to start thinking memory first. So that's the first failure mode, is engineers are not thinking memory first. And if you start to think memory first, you start to see every piece of information as something to be remembered or forgotten. Now that affects the way you start to think about your data models. It affects the way you start to think about the attributes you put into what I call memory units, which are just, think of it as just the atomic unit representation of information, right, within an identic system. For example, when you start thinking about memory, and you think about information within your database, the information, there needs to be an attribute that allows the information to be recalled and forgotten. You need to implement that mechanism. You need to engineer that mechanism. There isn't a industry standard way of doing it. There are different ways to do it. So you have to also then evaluate the system against benchmarks and benchmarks out there like LongMemEVA or Locomo or Membench, just keep evaluating against these datasets. So against these benchmarks. So that is one of the failure modes, is the mental model. Another failure mode, if I think very, very deeply here, there's a principle I like to communicate to people, which is you don't delete information in memory engineering, you forget. Right?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-8-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":13,"time":"10:14","seconds":614,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] So really equating it to how a human would approach things.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-8-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":14,"time":"10:18","seconds":618,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] Exactly. Don't delete, forget. And that helps you understand, one, lets you understand the complexity of the job to be done. But two, it helps if you're working in initial critical applications or you're working in finance where audits, you get audits, I don't know. I don't know how many times financial institutions get audits in a year, but you're going to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-8-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":15,"time":"10:41","seconds":641,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] But","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-8-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":16,"time":"10:41","seconds":641,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] get","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-8-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":17,"time":"10:41","seconds":641,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] regularly,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-8-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":18,"time":"10:42","seconds":642,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] audits. Yeah,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-8-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":19,"time":"10:42","seconds":642,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-8-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":20,"time":"10:43","seconds":643,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"exactly. So it really helps one from a use case perspective, but also just implementing an engineering perspective. There are other failure modes, which are just typical of building systems and software engineering, but those two are the two that I'll say are top. One, not applying the right mental model when you're starting to build, which is think memory first. And two, not applying the principles, which one would be don't delete, forget.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":21,"time":"11:13","seconds":673,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Was there a moment when you personally hit the ceiling with prompt engineering and said, Oh, I need memory engineering to be its own discipline.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":22,"time":"11:22","seconds":682,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, so like I said at the beginning, If we say prompt engineering, right? We're saying just writing stuff into the NLM","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-10-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":23,"time":"11:32","seconds":692,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-10-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":24,"time":"11:32","seconds":692,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] to do something, right? Again, that was not the job we were doing, right? Because what we're doing, we're thinking about our chunking strategies. Right? And prompt engineering doesn't even tell you that you, doesn't communicate to people that you're doing that. So there was, I wouldn't say I was ever a prompt engineer. I was prompting and you put prompts into, instructions into this LLMs, but we were more concerned about what embedding model are we using? What chunking strategy are we using? What retrieval strategies are we using? Are we using vector or lexical or hybrid? How do they work against our use case? we were not really obsessed with are the, what would I call it? Is the LLM following the instruction accurately? Because that was really dependent on, it was really dependent on the information you provided it, but also the reasoning models or the reasoning capabilities of these models just made it so that you'd have to write as much prompt as you needed to before, right? Because they could follow instructions more carefully, it reduced","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-10-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":25,"time":"12:37","seconds":757,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] They're getting better and better,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-10-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":26,"time":"12:38","seconds":758,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":27,"time":"12:38","seconds":758,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":28,"time":"12:39","seconds":759,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"Exactly. So yeah, that's how I stole things. So was there ever a ceiling? No, there wasn't because I never saw myself as a prompt internet.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":29,"time":"12:49","seconds":769,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"What does a well-architected memory system for EA Agents actually look like? And I'll note here, if you want to share your screen and walk us through something or show us an image, you're welcome to.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":30,"time":"12:59","seconds":779,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] Okay, let me see if I can share my screen. I always have some demo which is showing up anyway.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-14-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":31,"time":"13:08","seconds":788,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] yeah","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-14-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":32,"time":"13:08","seconds":788,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] So, honestly, you should put this part in the recording because Conor didn't even tell me to prepare for this. He was just like,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-14-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":33,"time":"13:14","seconds":794,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] i should have i should have to be clear yeah","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-14-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":34,"time":"13:16","seconds":796,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"just catch me off guard. But no, I always have some","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":35,"time":"13:19","seconds":799,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] i was i","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-15-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":36,"time":"13:19","seconds":799,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] good","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-15-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":37,"time":"13:19","seconds":799,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] was just thinking as we're talking i'm like oh richmond's got a demo of course he does","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-15-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":38,"time":"13:22","seconds":802,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-15-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":39,"time":"13:22","seconds":802,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] like","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-15-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":40,"time":"13:23","seconds":803,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] always have","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-15-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":41,"time":"13:23","seconds":803,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] yeah","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-15-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":42,"time":"13:23","seconds":803,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] some application that I'm building, and because I always","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-15-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":43,"time":"13:25","seconds":805,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] yeah","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-15-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":44,"time":"13:26","seconds":806,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] build my application in agent's memory first, so they all encapsulate what I try to communicate to people. So let me share my screen here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-15-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":45,"time":"13:35","seconds":815,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-15-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":46,"time":"13:35","seconds":815,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] Let's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-15-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":47,"time":"13:35","seconds":815,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] think what Richmond's saying is he lives the work, not just","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-15-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":48,"time":"13:38","seconds":818,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] go. This","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-15-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":49,"time":"13:38","seconds":818,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] talks","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-15-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":50,"time":"13:38","seconds":818,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] is fantastic.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-15-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":51,"time":"13:39","seconds":819,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] it. Acronyms are great. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-15-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":52,"time":"13:42","seconds":822,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] Absolutely, exactly. So, AFSA is basically, this is a demo and it's got a bunch of synthetic data. All the data is held in an Oracle AI database. And I'm using AFSA to basically showcase how a very intelligent chat assistant would look like within a wealth management institution. So wealth management institutions are financial institutions that are concerned with handling the investments of high net worth individuals like myself and Conor. But","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-15-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":53,"time":"14:18","seconds":858,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] You are so kind for including me on that list, but I'll","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-15-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":54,"time":"14:21","seconds":861,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] Well,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-15-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":55,"time":"14:21","seconds":861,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] take","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-15-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":56,"time":"14:21","seconds":861,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] I'm","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-15-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":57,"time":"14:21","seconds":861,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-15-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":58,"time":"14:21","seconds":861,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"recruiting myself. But yeah, they manage the investments for like massive wealthy families and they do a lot of investment allocation. So this system is an agentic financial services system that can query different tables. So I'm just going to do something. I'm just to make sure it's working. So let's see. Let's run what we call a convergent search. And I'm sure the servers are still running. I'm hoping they're still running. So this is a convergent search. And normally what we have, or one of the anti-patterns I always saw in a lot of engineering teams where they would use multiple databases, right? They will use multiple databases within their agent architecture or their infra, AI infra. And that's because The nature of data within production today has this heterogeneous nature, right? You would encounter different types of data in production. So, and there are different types of data that are useful and data can be represented in different... There's something happening on the screen. I am going to explain what's happening on the screen, but","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":59,"time":"15:35","seconds":935,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] No,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-16-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":60,"time":"15:35","seconds":935,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] I just want","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-16-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":61,"time":"15:35","seconds":935,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] talk","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-16-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":62,"time":"15:35","seconds":935,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] to...","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-16-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":63,"time":"15:36","seconds":936,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] me through it. Talk me through it. It's great.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-16-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":64,"time":"15:37","seconds":937,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] So","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-16-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":65,"time":"15:37","seconds":937,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-16-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":66,"time":"15:38","seconds":938,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"it's one of the things where a lot of developers, I saw them leveraging different database for different data types, so I wanted to use vectors, so I go get a vector database. Okay, I want to use JSON, I go get a NoSQL database. Okay, relational, I use Postgres, and then, oh wait, I want to do graph now. Okay, let me go get another graph database. But the thing is this. Now you have four databases that you have to manage and synchronize data across them. So this is what I try to showcase, right? I have this intelligent AI assistant called AFSA that can actually get me a client ID. I'm using the client ID. I'm trying to find connected accounts. Connected accounts is going to be a graph traversal, right? I'm trying to find nearby clients, that spatial search, and try to get the relevant risk research. That is vector similarity. So one query, it requires different types of search. So what we have is this converged search. And in this demo, I show how Oracle AI Database can handle different search mechanisms in one statement. Right? Just four mechanisms of search in one statement. And this reduces your AI infra into just using one key database. So this is something that I communicate to a lot of developers. And we can see here, we've got the information of the account ID. And we have some other accounts that are related to this account ID. The relationship is on their risk profile and portfolio overlap. That was the relationship that this account had with the other account. And then we have some other relevant search that we retrieved. And this agent can use the tool. The convergent search is a tool for the agent. But this is where I show memory. This is where memory comes in. Over here, the context window of AFSA is segmented and partitioned to allocate for different memory types. So I talk a lot about agent memory, I talk about different memory types, but one thing I talk about now is memory aware agents, which is the agent is aware that it has different abstractions that represents different memory types and included in in the contents window is how to use the contents of each memory types, then followed by the content. So for example, we have the conversation. I tell it, this is conversation memory and this is the purpose of it, right? And then we have the conversation that we just had in the conversation memory and the results of it. But then we have the knowledge base because it had to search for, oh, I'm just going to zoom in.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":67,"time":"18:30","seconds":1110,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"So it has a knowledge base right because you have to go through the risk profile and you can see what's searching through our semantic memory which is knowledge base but we have workflow so this agent can actually record. It steps and it's almost like a human when a human does a task. we are recording it, right? We're recording routines and skills, right? Now that skills MD is a thing. So I built this agent to record everything that it's doing as workflow memory, in workflow memory. So it recognizes that there was a query that was given, and then the steps it took to run the query. And then the answer. This is experience for the agent in the next iteration. So there are other things that I've included, like entity memory and summary memory as well. I can go deep into any of you want.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":68,"time":"19:22","seconds":1162,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, I would love to understand how you map these different memory segments into cognitive types aligned to humans, because I know you've done some work around identifying basically the model or patterns for that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":69,"time":"19:37","seconds":1177,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] So I'm not a neuroscientist yet. I don't know.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-19-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":70,"time":"19:41","seconds":1181,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, I'll give you a couple of years. We'll see. I've","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-19-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":71,"time":"19:43","seconds":1183,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] So","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-19-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":72,"time":"19:43","seconds":1183,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] seen your educational background.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-19-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":73,"time":"19:47","seconds":1187,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"one thing is, I read a few papers and from neuroscientists, I've spoken to, I was at an event at AGI house in San Francisco. Yeah, AGI house in the Bay Area actually. And I spoke to a bunch of neuroscientists and It was an event where we brought neuroscientists and people that were into computational forms of memory and aging together, and it was so interesting to see how these two worlds are coming together. Because we've always drawn inspiration, I mean, from a technology perspective, we've always drawn inspiration from nature, right? To build planes, we look to birds. Convolutional neural networks from deep learning and computer vision are inspired by the human neurons and inspired by research done by two neuroscientists called Hubbell and Wiesel, where they experimented on a cat to see how visual stimulus affected the visual cortex of the cats. And they mapped a couple of the activations of the cat's brain to learn a lot. And convolutional neural networks actually gets inspiration from their research finding. The point is we always look to nature and nature inspires technology. So I did the same with agent memory. I looked at what do neuroscientists say about memory in humans. Well the first thing they say about memory in humans is that it's very complicated and it's not solved. We don't even know how it fully works yet. But one thing is this, we understand that memory is not just one thing. There isn't just like memory as one thing. We have different parts of our brain responsible for different parts of memory, right? Or different types of information that we store and retrieve. So just by that, you can imagine your context window if you're taking inspiration. Okay, now I need to start to think of segmenting the context window for different parts of for different memory segments, just trying to draw parallels here, right? And that's why I've done it this way. So that's why it's memory aware. And the second thing, the inspiration I also got is, there are three main forms of, or four main forms of memory in humans, right? We have working memory, We have episodic memory, we have semantic memory, and we have procedural memory. And all of this can correlate to computational form. So working memory is your context window. It's short term, it's limited. Or it could be a scratch pad, external scratch pad, right? Semantic memory is just your knowledge base. Institutional knowledge is semantic memory. Episodic memory, that is any information that has a timestamp, such as conversations, the interactions you have in your system. Then fourth, procedural memory can be the skills. We have skill MDs, MD files now. That's a form of procedural memory. So you can see the correlation that we're drawing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":74,"time":"22:50","seconds":1370,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] No, you're just making me, I mean, yes, I have so many questions, but you are making me sit here. I'm trying to like map different things I do to these memory categories you've outlined. So I did not expect to go deep into neuroscience today, and I am very excited we did. And you're just making me think maybe I need to have like a full-on neuroscientist on the show now. Like this, okay, this is great.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-20-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":75,"time":"23:12","seconds":1392,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] Dude, if you do, I will watch that episode first. And I don't think we've gone deep. Neuroscientists would be like, yeah, we learned","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-20-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":76,"time":"23:18","seconds":1398,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-20-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":77,"time":"23:18","seconds":1398,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] that in life.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-20-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":78,"time":"23:18","seconds":1398,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] They're like, this is, this is kid stuff. What are you talking about? Yeah. Oh, that's funny. Um, all right. Well, let's talk about a specific memory type, maybe procedural memory, for example, here. So it sounds like a lot of us would map this very easily to work we're doing around setting up like a claw.md or an agents.md file, uh, to shape agent behavior. How do you fit this perspective into production architecture and like, what are the recommendations around being successful with agent memory on a procedural front.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-20-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":79,"time":"23:51","seconds":1431,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"Yeah. So on the procedural front, we're looking at procedural memory essentially would hold information that encapsulates maybe skills. I don't want to use the word skills in different ways. So I would say routines or way to do tasks. So if we bring things to humans, procedural memory for humans would be in like an organization would be like SOP, Standard Operating Procedure documents, which is how to do tasks. The way that we see this in production systems is this, right? In production systems, you don't want to be using files, essentially, right, to store your customers' information or any sensitive information. You want to be using more robust infrastructure components like a database, right? And the reason is this. Whenever you get to production, your system is going to be used by hundreds, thousands, and successful production applications are going to be used by millions of customers. Now, that means there's going to be a lot of transactions hitting your storage systems. And when you start to think about scalability and availability and even making sure information do not conflict with each other, you start to realise that there is a whole There's a whole amount of logic and engineering you need to build around these files to make it production ready. But then you start to realize that you're building a database, right? When you start to put things like ACID transaction, because you can lock files, right? When a file has been accessed, you can lock it. and then another person can't actually edit the file. But the problem is, there are other disadvantages to using file scalability. And I know the rave at the moment of recording is files are all you need or files and grep are all you need. But really, you got to be thinking in production, you got to be thinking auditability, thinking scale as well, and all the things that database folks have been trying to solve for decades. So that's what I see in production. Firstly, how you apply procedural memory in production is whenever you have skills, right? In PLCs, you have this skills.md. What can you do with these files? Well, you can store them in a database. You can store them in an Oracle AI database within a table, and the table will hold all of the different data types like I've showed you. You can hold the content of the actual file itself. You can hold the vector representation of the skills, so you can retrieve the right skills or a number of skills for an incoming query using Similarity Search. Right? You can have other data types, like what's the relationship of one skill to other skills? Then you could do some form of graph traversal. The key thing is, you can take your skills.md, however many you have, put it within a database with different projection and representation of the data. Using the right retrieval strategies, you can retrieve these skills when you need them. That's how, that would be a production paradigm.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":80,"time":"27:11","seconds":1631,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I'd love to relate this back to something you brought up earlier, which is forgetting memory. You said this is something people often don't consider as they are architecting their systems. How does implementing controlled forgetting apply in this kind of production implementation?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":81,"time":"27:33","seconds":1653,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"there is no and i said when i mentioned there is no industry standard of doing this for example the way we measure relevance between data object is using vector search and using some form of relevance right we have a relevant score and if you use some vector search algorithm like IVF or HNSW and you can use that to look at some similarity. You can use mathematical operations like cosine and Euclidean distance to measure the distance between two vectors. For forgetting, there isn't an industry standard, right? But there are approaches.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":82,"time":"28:11","seconds":1691,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"But there are projects. And one of the ones that is really easy to implement, it comes from a paper called Generative Agents, written by folks at Stanford. It got released in 2023. And in that paper, they add an attribute to each memory unit within this agent simulation environment. And that attribute is a computation of three variables, which is the relevance, the recency and the importance of the information. And with that weighted score, they can actually start to rank information and update information as they go through this entire system. So recency is timestamped. right? Relevance is just semantic similarity. Then importance, the way you can see importance would be maybe how many of a memory units is this memory unit related to or is it called by? So you would have this variable or you have this weighted computation that increases and decreases for each of these memory units. And that could add a natural way for information to be forgotten because if information isn't retrieved or","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":83,"time":"29:42","seconds":1782,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"it isn't a dependency to other memory units, that score will start to reduce","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":84,"time":"29:48","seconds":1788,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"within that system.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":85,"time":"29:50","seconds":1790,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] So you've defined this fundamental building block of memory units and then talked a bit about some of the key relations it needs to have to other memory units as you","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-26-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":86,"time":"30:00","seconds":1800,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-26-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":87,"time":"30:00","seconds":1800,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] think through, you know, forgetting or remembering, I'm sure, as well. How does this operate within an agent harness where developers maybe wrongly assume that, oh, the model will take care of this? What do they need to be thinking about instead?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-26-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":88,"time":"30:19","seconds":1819,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"Yeah. Do you know, I don't think developers wrongly assume that the model providers will take care of memory. And this is why, because memory is the last battleground for anyone that operates in the AI stack. And here's what I mean. Everyone is trying to solve memory. Database companies, model providers, even","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":89,"time":"30:48","seconds":1848,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"harness providers or framework providers. Everyone has got a say on how memory should be modeled in agentic systems. right? And it's an easy battleground for a research lab to operate in and a single developer to operate in as well. There isn't a plane within the AI landscape that has that sort of against that sort of equality between the players. For example, a single developer can't train a GPT 4-5 like model, right? But a single developer can build a memory system that can remember better than a chat GPT. And some have, right? Small teams have built these systems. So that's why I say I don't think developers are assuming the wrong thing if they think the model provider is going to solve it. But this is what I tell developers is they need to understand, at a very fundamental level, memory engineering and memory operation. And this is how it works in the agent harness. And just to define agent harness, an agent harness is basically all the software scaffolding and the control mechanism you have around, maybe in and around an agent loop. And an agent loop would just include an LLM that can take in information, observe the information and maybe do some tool calls and then produce a final output. Now, in an agent harness, what you're going to have are memory operations. for each of these memory types. And you can think of CRUD operations for each memory type. Create, read, update. I was going to say delete, but we don't delete, we forget. So we have the CRUF operations, I guess we could, C-R-U-F, I don't know. We have those operations within the agent harness. And within the outer harness, and what I mean by the outer harness, which is the aerial or the engineering space before you get into the agent loop, what you're going to need to do is pull in all the relevant memory. So you need to pull in all the conversation memory, you need to pull in the knowledge base, you need to pull in all of this memory. You mostly will have all this read operations. right? Then in the agent loops, you're probably going to have a lot of write memory operation because you're updating information that is coming out of the context window within the loop and even outside of the loop. So this is what I would say how it fits in the agent harness. I wish I had a diagram to show here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":90,"time":"33:32","seconds":2012,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Thanks to Galileo for sponsoring this episode. Their new 165 page comprehensive guide to mastering multi-agent systems is freely available on their website at galileo.ai and provides you the lens you need to understand when multi-agent systems add value versus single agent approaches, how to design them efficiently and how to build reliable systems that work in production. Download it for free at the link in the show description to discover how to continuously improve your AI agents, identify and avoid common coordination pitfalls, master context engineering for agent collaboration, measure performance with multi-agent metrics, and much more. I know, I feel like I am in a really engaging class right now and it is fantastic, I want to say. It actually draws me to my next question, which is, Besides the option of listening to this podcast, which everyone should do, and your other talks, which they should probably also do, where should developers go to learn more about agent memory and how to manage it?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":91,"time":"34:39","seconds":2079,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] I will find you. I'm joking. Sal's win.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-29-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":92,"time":"34:43","seconds":2083,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] It's kind of true though, like if you go on LinkedIn and you're looking for agent memory, Richmond is going to pop up.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-29-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":93,"time":"34:49","seconds":2089,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"Yeah, yeah, yeah. Again, if you're looking for Age of Memory, do a Google search or go on LinkedIn. Hopefully, I pop up. And if you don't, you can follow me on LinkedIn, right? I'm always talking about Age of Memory. And I'm kind of taking it into this phase of continuous learning as well, because Age of Memory has a lot to do with continuous learning. And that's going to become a possibility this year or next year.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":94,"time":"35:12","seconds":2112,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It's super exciting.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":95,"time":"35:14","seconds":2114,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"But if you want to, like, I mean it when I say, if you're a developer, I will find you because that's my mission, right? I've been in this AI space for a good amount of years, educating developers in different forms. And that's what my focus is, really enabling developers to build AI application in production, that skill, think about things abstractly and communicate to people that are non-technical folks as well by using human analogy. It's just, I enjoy doing that. So yeah, I will find you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":96,"time":"35:46","seconds":2146,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I feel like we should just plug this entire conversation into Notebook LM and say, build me a fantastic diagram of everything Richmond said here, because I think it might give us a really interesting asset for you to use. And it also brings up a very specific question to me, which I think is something that maybe, you know, folks listening here would think is like, oh, I'm unsure on the boundaries. So, you know, if I am using, let's say, Claude, and I'm going through and having a conversation, if I talk to Claude for long enough, it will eventually compact the conversation. And it'll say, oh, I'm trying to help us keep this conversation going, let me compact it. When it does that, is that context management or is that memory management where it's actually forgetting things?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":97,"time":"36:33","seconds":2193,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"There is, compaction is interesting because there are two ways it can compact, right? Wait, context reduction is interesting because there's two ways you can reduce context, compaction and summarization, right? And one is lossy, the other one is lossless. So summarization is, I'm just gonna summarize a context window, throw away whatever we've done, and just put a summary in the context window. Compaction is, I'm going to maybe take a chunk out of the context window and store it externally and then retrieve it when I need to. So use some just-in-time retrieval mechanism. Where do the boundaries lie? This is where it lies. If you're doing summarization, a way to make summarization lossless is you summarize your conversation. You click that compact or maybe the compaction mechanism is agent triggered. That summary gets generated. Hopefully it has a lot of information compressed and it gets put into the context window. All of that is context engineering. How do you know which information to compact, right? How do you prompt the LLM to do the right selection of signals and the right compression, right? That's context engineering. But when you start to move, the uncompressed information to an external store because now you've given your agent the ability to do just-in-time retrieval. And what I mean is, even though you've removed the full summary, you've placed an ID right? A unique ID and a description, maybe a paragraph description of what's held in this ID as a way for the agent to just search that ID to get the full conversation when it wants to. When you put that into a database, or even if you're using files, that's memory engineering. Because now you have to start thinking about, when do I retrieve this information? How quick should this information retrieval be? And what retrieval mechanism should I be using? That's the boundary.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":98,"time":"38:50","seconds":2330,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"This is fantastically interesting and I am already regretting that I didn't schedule two hours with you because I feel like I could get so much depth out of this. So we may have to have you come back on. Thankfully you still have a little time left here. I guess the the key question I want to ask here, and you've maybe touched on this already, is agent memory fundamentally a database problem then?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":99,"time":"39:15","seconds":2355,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"It should be a database problem. It should be, right? Database providers, storage providers are in the best position to solve this. But agent memory, if I should define it properly, because that will help with the answer. I was trying to see if I have like a diagram somewhere of the outlines where I think the boundaries between agent memory and where","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":100,"time":"39:44","seconds":2384,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] That","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-36-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":101,"time":"39:44","seconds":2384,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] memory","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-36-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":102,"time":"39:44","seconds":2384,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] would","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-36-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":103,"time":"39:44","seconds":2384,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] engineering.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-36-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":104,"time":"39:44","seconds":2384,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] make a fantastic LinkedIn post. That's for sure.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-36-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":105,"time":"39:47","seconds":2387,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, you know what? You are just in luck, Conor. As in, you've asked me to show you stuff and I guess because I live this stuff, I just have them sit in. So, let me show you a good diagram, I think, we show things.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-36-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":106,"time":"40:06","seconds":2406,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] You can see my screen, right?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-36-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":107,"time":"40:08","seconds":2408,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-36-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":108,"time":"40:09","seconds":2409,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] You can see this draw.io thing just flowing around. And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-36-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":109,"time":"40:12","seconds":2412,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-36-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":110,"time":"40:13","seconds":2413,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"what I like to do is just draw diagrams and take my time, because I find that visual explanations really work well for people to understand what's going on. So here you see, you're going to see, this diagram is meant to show you where memory engineering, prompt engineering, and context engineering, where the boundary lies. So here we have our Oracle AI database. But we also have all of this, let's say ingestion, all these documents coming into the database. Then we have all of the different vector, all of the different data types that the Oracle AI database can handle. Remember, I showed you guys that before. I've kept some markers for the different engineering disciplines. But over on the edge of the database, Like, if you just imagine the boundary of the database, that's memory engineering. When you see agent engineers thinking about retrieval, indexing, storage, decay and forget logic, retrieval optimization, storage optimization, data modeling, that's memory engineering. But when you then go into the context window, you're going to see things like token budgeting, just-in-time retrieval, context retrieval, context organization and composition. All of that is context engineering. But you also have prompt engineering as well that operates within a context window and different techniques. And this is how I see the boundaries, right? It's how I'm seeing things. And this evolves over time as well. Any questions?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":111,"time":"41:44","seconds":2504,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Uh, so many, uh, my first one is, can I get a copy of this diagram to include","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-37-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":112,"time":"41:49","seconds":2509,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] yeah","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-37-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":113,"time":"41:50","seconds":2510,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] in the show notes? Cause this is fantastic.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-37-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":114,"time":"41:53","seconds":2513,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] yeah you","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-37-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":115,"time":"41:53","seconds":2513,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Um,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-37-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":116,"time":"41:53","seconds":2513,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] can and the thing is because there is like a hundred things happening i never finish this diagram and put it out there uh maybe this would i'll give you a copy of this and we can put this in the show note yeah uh i don't know if this is fully complete but anyway i'll","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-37-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":117,"time":"42:09","seconds":2529,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Well, let","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-37-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":118,"time":"42:10","seconds":2530,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] give","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-37-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":119,"time":"42:10","seconds":2530,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] me ask you this. How would you think about prioritization here? So let's say I am a newer engineer to memory engineering, and I am getting really excited about it listening to you talk on enrichment, which I think is very easy. I mean, it's happening to me. Where should I start? Where should I be, you know, trying to have strong impact initially?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-37-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":120,"time":"42:29","seconds":2549,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"Well, if you're a developer, forget about memory engineering, context engineering, or all of these buzzwords. Your job is very simple. You're meant to build systems that work in production. That's it, right? That is your job. Now, if you want to have the most impact, what you can do is, firstly, understand what does it mean for the system you're building to be valuable and useful in production. Does it mean that the interaction that a user has with your agent can extend for multiple sessions or even days? Does it mean if you're building a coding agent, the agent could run for hours? Because then if those are your parameters you're using to define success, you can find different engineering techniques that you can start to leverage. Security is important. Now, if you pick security, you start to go into the path of sandbox environment that you need to leverage. So forget about the engineering disciplines. They're going to change. Prompt engineering was like sexy at one point, not sexy anymore. Context engineering is nice, not nice anymore. Memory engineering is up and coming, if I have anything to say about it. We'll see. It might be something else in a few years time. But the key thing is, if you're a developer, you just want to build something valuable. So what are the things that really matter to your domain? Then just figure out what people are doing to make things work. And eventually we can define it with some nice terms.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":121,"time":"44:13","seconds":2653,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And you recently wrote a blog post that I glanced at. I will admit not to having read the whole thing in depth. But you wrote this blog post for Oracle where you talked about comparing file systems and databases for effective AI agent memory management. And you essentially argue, seemingly, that file systems are great as an interface, but databases are a stronger substrate, and that there's kind of a categorical error that many folks are taking on as they approach this, thinking, oh, I just need all these files. How does that relate to the retrieval decisions you're making as you build out the right database for your agents?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":122,"time":"45:02","seconds":2702,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"So once upon a time, I don't know if you heard this, but people used to say vector search is all you need.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":123,"time":"45:10","seconds":2710,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It's always all you need. Yeah. Oh, this is it. This is the thing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":124,"time":"45:13","seconds":2713,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"Yeah, it's always something is all you need or something is dead.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":125,"time":"45:18","seconds":2718,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yes. Reg is dead. Reg is dead. Everybody.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":126,"time":"45:20","seconds":2720,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] Rag","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-43-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":127,"time":"45:20","seconds":2720,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-43-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":128,"time":"45:20","seconds":2720,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] is dead. Just like prompt engineering is dead or something is dead or something is all you need. We're either on two ends of this. We're always at the extreme of the spectrum.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-43-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":129,"time":"45:31","seconds":2731,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] It's because there's too much of a hype cycle. This is a whole other convo we could go into,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-43-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":130,"time":"45:36","seconds":2736,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] Exactly.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-43-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":131,"time":"45:36","seconds":2736,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] but yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-43-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":132,"time":"45:36","seconds":2736,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"So we quickly found out that vector search was not all you need, right? It was a very key component of what you needed, but it wasn't all you need.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":133,"time":"45:47","seconds":2747,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Is the phrase all you need simply an artifact of us using LLMs to generate text and therefore overhyping that text and it getting transferred into the ecosystem? I don't know. Anyways, go on, sorry.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":134,"time":"45:59","seconds":2759,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"When you think about retrieval strategies for your agent, I'm not saying that there is one solution that will solve all your problems, because that would be a lie, right? In the piece, I even give you situations and scenarios where you should use file systems and where you should use databases. Everything has its place in your application maturity. If you're building a PLC and you have to demo to some execs that told you to build this yesterday, for sure you can think of using a file system because now you don't have to start thinking about tool selection and different things that come all around AI infrastructure. if you have it tomorrow. But once you start to get in front of your customers, once you start to scale, then you need to go to more proven systems, right? Files, again, files are nothing new. The philosophy of using files for everything was a thing in the 70s,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":135,"time":"47:02","seconds":2822,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"right? In AI, we love to resurrect things and act like we just","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":136,"time":"47:06","seconds":2826,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-47-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":137,"time":"47:06","seconds":2826,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] discovered.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-47-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":138,"time":"47:07","seconds":2827,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] we tried them a lot. We tried them a couple of decades ago. It didn't quite work because we weren't ready. Now it's starting to work. This is great.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-47-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":139,"time":"47:12","seconds":2832,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"Yeah, and if you look at vectors, right, I remember, like, when I was studying computer vision in university, everything was vectors, right? Matrix multiplication was convolution, convolution neural networks, and convolutions are just matrix multiplications with different matrices, right? So","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":140,"time":"47:35","seconds":2855,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] AI","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-48-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":141,"time":"47:35","seconds":2855,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] everything...","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-48-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":142,"time":"47:35","seconds":2855,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] agents concepts are 50 plus 70 years old at this point initially.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-48-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":143,"time":"47:40","seconds":2860,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, so it's like we always rediscover things and reimagine them. So look, this is my advice to developers.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-48-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":144,"time":"47:53","seconds":2873,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"There","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":145,"time":"47:56","seconds":2876,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"is a subset of categories in technology where you have folks that are really solving a key problem. Database, data storage, data retrieval, The longest company that has been solving that problem is Oracle. Oracle is over 40 years old. So this is a company that understands data, understands how data should be retrieved and optimized. And we've seen all of the hype cycles once before me and you were born. I don't even know what hat cycles we had there.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":146,"time":"48:32","seconds":2912,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] I don't know what I'm talking about. There was the data era, there was the internet era, there was the cloud thing. It's all gone and now we're in this AI era, agent, and we'll probably do quantum very soon. The key thing is we, being in Oracle, you understand that change is constant, but to really produce value, you have to be a student of change. And what that means is, and the outcome of that is a database, the Oracle AI database, that gives you everything you need. And I know I said, there is not, excuse me.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-50-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":147,"time":"49:13","seconds":2953,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] it's all you need he says i okay see","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-50-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":148,"time":"49:16","seconds":2956,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] Oracle","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-50-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":149,"time":"49:16","seconds":2956,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] you richmond","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-50-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":150,"time":"49:16","seconds":2956,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-50-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":151,"time":"49:16","seconds":2956,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] that's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-50-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":152,"time":"49:16","seconds":2956,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] all you need. Oracle database is all you need. I'm contradicting myself. I'm gonna","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-50-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":153,"time":"49:21","seconds":2961,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] the clip we're","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-50-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":154,"time":"49:21","seconds":2961,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] get flamed.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-50-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":155,"time":"49:21","seconds":2961,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] gonna we're gonna start the episode with that yeah","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-50-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":156,"time":"49:24","seconds":2964,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, Oracle AI Database is all you need. Just put that in the episode title, please.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-50-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":157,"time":"49:28","seconds":2968,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] okay okay","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-50-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":158,"time":"49:29","seconds":2969,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] I'm going to get flamed in the comments.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-50-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":159,"time":"49:32","seconds":2972,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"you know what but your boss will be happy so","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":160,"time":"49:34","seconds":2974,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"We got a mission. Why are we getting so much attention? But look, there is a lot of retrieval strategies in the Oracle AI Database, like I showed you, right? I did a demo, and I showed you. And that could have easily been four different databases plus a file, like plus a bunch of MD files. You can go that direction if you want to, but this is the key thing. I'm a simple man. I'm all about reducing cognitive load, either for the LLM or for myself. So just the same way we don't want the LLM to really spend all of his reasoning","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":161,"time":"50:13","seconds":3013,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"capabilities on thinking about information in the context window and what memory is this or what should I remember, by making it memory aware and segmenting things the way humans does, it's the same way we've got to treat, we have to treat our developers in the same way. I don't want our developers to start thinking about, is there a new data type that's going to become popular very soon? Okay, do I need a new database? Okay, I had files of what you need. Okay, I need to start bringing the files. I had this, I had that. It's like, no, one database. and we will handle it and it keeps evolving. So that's what I'm gonna basically present here. And I don't like to just talk a talk, I would walk in diagrams and demos and we have a bunch of resources so you can test things out yourself and make your tool choice. But yeah, experiment, this field is fun.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":162,"time":"51:09","seconds":3069,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I think this idea of a converged database that Oracle is taking on is excellent from the standpoint of reducing cognitive load, as you put it. Because I think this is before the camera started rolling that we were talking about this, but Richmond asked me, oh, how are you doing? And I said, you know, I feel like the last few weeks I have been surfing this wave of water, everything coming at me. And then I lost my surfboard this week, and I'm paddling desperately trying to stay above water and get back on the surfboard. And Richmond said very succinctly, I feel I've felt that for one, two years at this point.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":163,"time":"51:46","seconds":3106,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-54-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":164,"time":"51:47","seconds":3107,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] And I think all of us who are involved in the AI space There is a point where you feel this. Maybe you feel this all the time because there is so much being thrown at you. There's so much new happening. There's so much exciting happening there. There's so many new ideas. There's so many new techniques and it can feel deeply overwhelming. It can give you too much cognitive load. Nobody can keep up with all the papers. There's a reason we're using LLMs to summarize a lot of this stuff. Uh, so when you can find the opportunity to be focused and simplify in a way that reduces your cognitive load, lets you manage your memory or your agent's memory,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-54-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":165,"time":"52:23","seconds":3143,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":166,"time":"52:23","seconds":3143,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] uh, and reduce the context you have to be considering, I think that's a really fantastic pitch, especially because, I mean, we can look at human history and we've been talking a bit about some of the, uh, some of the comparisons, you know, neuroscience, for example, as one area that we've talked about. But there's a reason that we have done specialization for hundreds of years now. And there's a reason that we've seen such efficiency gains from that. And increasingly, as we've had these incredible gains with the generalized frontier models, we are now seeing, oh, if I build the right harness for this, you know, Claude Code is a great example that I think has gone extremely viral the last few months. Uh, you can deliver a lot more value, even if I haven't necessarily pushed the frontier capabilities this far, but by giving it the right context, helping it have the right memory management can be at the right tools specializing. Um, and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-55-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":167,"time":"53:17","seconds":3197,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] now.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-55-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":168,"time":"53:17","seconds":3197,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I, I think really this entire concept you're talking about Richmond of memory management and agent memory is very clearly an opportunity to drive specialization and therefore drive efficiency and hopefully results.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-55-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":169,"time":"53:30","seconds":3210,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"You're right about there's a lot that happens in the AI space and this is how I handle the noise. I just select a lane and I just stay on that lane. And anything that doesn't talk about the lane, I try to ignore. Because if you've been in AI long enough, you're going to realize that you're going to pick a lane, but all lane leads to the same destination. Right? So you could have just focused on computer vision and deep learning. Eventually, you'd have found your way to where we are today, right? Visual, VLLMs, or whatever we call them, right? You could have stopped at NLP, and eventually you'd have find your way here, right? You could have stopped to robotics, and you would have find your way here as well.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":170,"time":"54:19","seconds":3259,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"And that's the way I see things. I just chose age of memory. And I said, I'm just gonna stick with this and try to, when I hear a signal or when I see something in the space, I try to, does this really, does this fit in that lane that I've chosen? And if it does, I go deep. If it doesn't, I ignore it because there is so much, right? I could be talking about quantum engineering next time I come on this podcast.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":171,"time":"54:46","seconds":3286,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Good. I cannot wait to have that quantum discussion. And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":172,"time":"54:49","seconds":3289,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"I'm literally just busting out laughing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":173,"time":"54:53","seconds":3293,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"this idea of convergence is not, you know, it's not a new one. The idea that machines and humans and knowledge, it's all converging into a single whole or a single opportunity. But it's definitely an interesting one to philosophically think about in the context of agents and specialization and memory and how we bring everything together. And Richmond, I just can't thank you enough for coming on the show today. It's been so fun to dive deep with you. Uh, and I absolutely going to have to have you back. I'm confident you're going to have a new innovation for me in a few months here. So, uh,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":174,"time":"55:29","seconds":3329,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"So","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":175,"time":"55:30","seconds":3330,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"one, I want to just ask you as we close out here, and we mentioned your LinkedIn earlier, but where else should folks go to follow your work and to dive deeper, maybe into some of the courses and creations that you've already. Put out in the world.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":176,"time":"55:44","seconds":3344,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] I'm always going to be creating courses so hopefully by the time this come out it's going to be like a big course that I have and I also have I do this weird thing I call it weird but it's not weird I do this thing where I have a five-hour class that I live stream on O'Reilly, right? It started off being two hours, then now it's a five-hour class on just AI memory management.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-62-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":177,"time":"56:12","seconds":3372,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I thought you were reducing cognitive load, Richmond. What's going on here?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-62-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":178,"time":"56:15","seconds":3375,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"So what happened was we started off with two hours, right? And I told O'Reilly, I was like, hey guys, this was last year summer. I said, Azure Memory is really popular. Developers are interested in this and this is gonna pay, interest is gonna compound. And we started off with two hours, then we did the class and we didn't have enough time. We increased it to three hours. We did the class, not enough time. Now it's five hours. We did the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":179,"time":"56:42","seconds":3402,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-63-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":180,"time":"56:42","seconds":3402,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] class.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-63-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":181,"time":"56:42","seconds":3402,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] should have known better than scheduling an hour for this podcast.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-63-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":182,"time":"56:45","seconds":3405,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] Exactly. We did the five-hour class. Guess what, Conor? It's not enough time. Now we're turning","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-63-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":183,"time":"56:51","seconds":3411,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Damn","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-63-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":184,"time":"56:51","seconds":3411,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] into","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-63-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":185,"time":"56:51","seconds":3411,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] it, Richmond.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-63-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":186,"time":"56:51","seconds":3411,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] a two-day, two-day class. Because","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-63-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":187,"time":"56:55","seconds":3415,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Okay.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-63-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":188,"time":"56:55","seconds":3415,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] we could keep","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-63-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":189,"time":"56:56","seconds":3416,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Okay.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-63-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":190,"time":"56:56","seconds":3416,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] going on and on. The space is, again, I've chosen my late. And that's age of memory. It's going to go into continuous learning. And that's my late. Right? So there is so much things that are just happening in that particular lane that I am just so eager to bring to developers, and I'm so excited. So you can catch me on O'Reilly. I'm one of the instructors. You can search my name, Richmond O'Reilly AI Memory, and you'll see one of my classes come up. I work at Oracle at the moment, so you can catch that. At the end of every month, I'm on Oracle Developers' YouTube channel. The last Thursday of every month, I'm live streaming on the Oracle Developer YouTube channel. So you can catch me talking about whatever I've discovered in that month related to my late. So those are two ways you can see me just talk for hours.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-63-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":191,"time":"57:45","seconds":3465,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And don't forget Richmond's LinkedIn as a place to get little micro sized bites of all the knowledge in these courses. Richmond, this has been fantastic. I am already plotting to have you back to talk more about the agent loop and training continuous learning. So whenever you're ready, you just let me know. I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":192,"time":"58:03","seconds":3483,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-64-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":193,"time":"58:03","seconds":3483,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] think that's gonna be a ton of fun.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-64-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":194,"time":"58:05","seconds":3485,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"it'll be fun. Thanks for having me, Karna.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":195,"time":"58:07","seconds":3487,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"My pleasure, Richmond and listeners really hope you enjoyed this lesson. And, uh, I called it a lesson, but really I meant to say episode, but, uh, I think it's truly, truly was a lesson. And I would love to hear from you about other topics you'd like us to go deep on. I mentioned a neuroscientist earlier after Richmond and I were talking. If someone knows a great neuroscientist we should talk to about the different comparisons between agent and human memory, we would love to have that conversation. If you have other ideas for episodes, we always love to hear from you, whether it's in the comments on YouTube, Spotify, LinkedIn, Substack, anywhere else you can reach the show. You can always find our episodes at chainofthought.show. And remember that if you haven't already left us a rating or review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or just dropped a comment somewhere, we deeply appreciate it. This engagement is help. so many other folks find the show, and it helps us to drive the next epic of incredible guests for you. So thank you again for listening or watching, and Richmond, thank you so much for this great conversation.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle","episode":53,"guid":"25d6a362-c5ef-47c9-9b85-75a3322090c9","episodeTitle":"Agent Memory: The Last Battleground in the AI Stack | Richmond Alake, Oracle","publishedAt":"2026-04-02","segmentIndex":196,"time":"59:12","seconds":3552,"speaker":"Richmond Alake","text":"Thanks SilverCutter!","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/53-agent-memory-the-last-battleground-in-the-ai-stack-richmond-alake-oracle/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:20","seconds":20,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Welcome back to Chain of Thought, everyone. I am your host, Conor Bronsdon, Head of Technical Ecosystem at Modular. It's great to see everyone. My guest today is Michel Tricot, CEO and co-founder of Airbyte, the open source data integration platform that became a $1.5 billion company by doing something the industry said couldn't work, giving away 600 plus data connectors for free and building a business on top of it. But Michel isn't here just to talk about ETL pipelines. He's here because Airbyte has launched the public beta of their agent engine. The thesis behind it is one of the more interesting bets in AI infrastructure right now, and I think a great extension of the work Airbnb has previously done to build their data advantage. And that thesis is that the reason agents fail in production isn't the model, it's the context. We have all probably seen this. I know I am seeing this in many of my personal agent building activities where context poisoning occurs or I provide too much context or simply I'm just pulling in too many tokens and suddenly I can't run the damn thing. Michel, welcome to Chain of Thought. Where are you joining us from today?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":1,"time":"1:21","seconds":81,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"Hey Keno, great to be here. I'm actually in downtown San Francisco, very close to the ferry building for those who know the area a little bit.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":2,"time":"1:30","seconds":90,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"fantastic location. I was just there a few hours ago and just got home to Seattle. So great to see you. I'm sad we couldn't do this in person. But I'm excited for this conversation we're going to have today about solving data pipelines for humans and also solving data pipelines for agents and how they are fundamentally different but related problems. What it takes to actually make agents constantly effective at scale is an open question we're all figuring out together, so this should be a great conversation for it. And one of the things that certainly helps agents to scale are our presenting sponsors Galileo.ai. Galileo helps with evaluations and guardrails to improve your agentic reliability. Check them out again at Galileo.ai. Michel, you've written that data moved us into the information age and context will move us into the intelligence age. That's a strong claim. What do you mean by that and why does it change everything about data infrastructure?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":3,"time":"2:27","seconds":147,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"Yeah, I think the first thing is trying to understand what is the growth that everyone is trying to get with AI by creating agents. One of the main goals is to delegate, automate, and many tasks that are currently owned by humans and make sure that you can have agents that can work independently and autonomously on top of any kind, of course I come from data, so any kind of data that your company might own and might generate. So when we look basically at the history of how data has moved and you look at You move data into a warehouse, but all the context about the organization, all the understanding about how data relates to each other, this is the intelligence of the humans and the data people that are working on top of these warehouses to understand what to make out of that data. And when you come to AI, like one of the agents leveraging the data, the idea is like, is there a way to structure and to make data available to agents so that they can do a part of understanding what is going on? Is there a place and a world in which, well, maybe you don't need to go through all this very complex ETL pipeline where you need to clean the data, map the data, identify like joint keys between different data silos. And that to me is what I mean by powering more of the intelligence now. It's like an agent has the ability to treat and to process all that information and to make relationships between different entities that exist in your system. You know, if you take a very simple example, It would take time from someone to just map from a field called position on one system and a field called job title on another system. This is something that an agent can do automatically because it's the same concept. And I think that's why it means to create a context search, just giving enough metadata, enough information, enough description about the data so that the agent can actually autonomously create relationship between concepts.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":4,"time":"4:48","seconds":288,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I've heard you make this distinction before between data and context, because I think we often use the term somewhat interchangeably and increasingly are realizing that if we just think about feeding as much data into an agent as we would like to, it actually can cause problems. Can you talk a bit about what failure modes you're seeing and how context windows and data pipelines are interrelated and intertwined?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":5,"time":"5:18","seconds":318,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"Yeah, so the first thing is data is stored across hundreds and hundreds of systems. So that's a common, I would say that's the common ground for any kind of data access is you need to have a way to access that data. It used to be and it still is like fit as much data into a warehouse so you have centralized view of across all of that. And a phenomenon that I see a lot with agents is forgetting about the fact that there is a reason why warehouses and centralization was built. It is to remove the complexity of accessing data, reliably accessing it. You cannot run an analysis by connecting through an API. you will have issues with API rate limits, you will have issues with, hey, maybe they don't offer the right way to access that data. And I think here we see the same type of failure mode when it comes to AgentWare. Yes, you have an API, you can have your agent to connect to the API. But what happens when the API doesn't support the access that the agent needs to get access to the data? So there is a lot of little things like that, that in a way we're reinventing. And yeah, the warehouse is great for BI, doesn't have enough of the context that is necessary for the agent to actually create these different connections.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":6,"time":"6:44","seconds":404,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, and there are a lot of conversations happening right now with different agent builders. And I'll say this, this probably signposts us a bit on when we recorded, which is going to be a week or two from actually release. But currently, Twitter is all abuzz about MCP is dead, and you know, go back to API's and it's it I think speaks to a I think they're wrong but I think it speaks to the the fact that there is a lot of confusion about how to get data into our agents most effectively and and frankly we haven't truly figured out like what's the gold standard going forward there are a lot of different methods they it can depend on you know what you're trying to achieve maybe you need a fallback method maybe you start one way and move to a separate as you realize what kind of context and data you need to feed in but Let's get really clear on context and why it matters. You know, we've talked a lot about on the show about, you know, context is crucial for agents. What are you seeing in the agent builder work that Airbyte is doing that is driving your iteration around context and data?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":7,"time":"7:49","seconds":469,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"Yeah. So the first thing, like one of the reasons we started on this new product is that we started to see a change of pattern in how people were using, uh, the current, uh, AirByte product, which is instead of pushing data directly into warehouses, which was, I would say the gold, the golden path for people using AirByte, they started to fit it more into blob storage. And,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":8,"time":"8:17","seconds":497,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"As we were chatting with these customers, we realized that they were not building an analytics and a BI system. What they were building is actually an infrastructure to power agents, and they have already gone pass the demoable state of an agent where you just directly connect to the API, and they quickly realize that, yes, that doesn't work. When people say MCP is dead, MCP is not dead. MCP is just an interconnect. It's just a way of connecting an LLM to an external system. You can make the LLM as complex as you want and as good as you want. Of course, if you just do a thin layer in front of an API, MCP is going to suck.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":9,"time":"9:02","seconds":542,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"it doesn't have to be the case and that to me is where I see the change happening and is people are realizing that yes there is a need for like post-processing that data so that the agent can work faster with more relevant data because if you get stuff from an API you might just get like a list of records that you might not need. And all of that is just going to pollute your context. And, you know, if we get to that, I have a demo that shows that very, very clearly. Like the moment you don't have proper handling of the data that is fed to DLLM, DLLM falls on its face and gives you the wrong results. And so that to me is what people are realizing and that's why I think we're going more and more toward this thinking about, yeah, how do I actually create proper processes to get my data into my agents with all the guardrail and all the accuracy that we used to have in the past more with warehouses and databases.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":10,"time":"10:04","seconds":604,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I was honestly planning to ask you to showcase this demo a bit later, but if you want to jump in right now, I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-9-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":11,"time":"10:10","seconds":610,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] No,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-9-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":12,"time":"10:10","seconds":610,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] think","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-9-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":13,"time":"10:11","seconds":611,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] we","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-9-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":14,"time":"10:11","seconds":611,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] we're","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-9-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":15,"time":"10:11","seconds":611,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] can,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-9-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":16,"time":"10:11","seconds":611,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"on the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":17,"time":"10:11","seconds":611,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] we","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-10-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":18,"time":"10:11","seconds":611,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] topic.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-10-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":19,"time":"10:11","seconds":611,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] can.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-10-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":20,"time":"10:12","seconds":612,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Let's show it off.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":21,"time":"10:12","seconds":612,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"Yep. Maybe we can do that. Okay.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":22,"time":"10:15","seconds":615,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] And while you're pulling that up, another thing I'd love to ask is about context engineering, this idea of context engineers, this new term that has emerged in which I've seen you as a proponent of. We've had prompt engineers. We've had","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-12-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":23,"time":"10:30","seconds":630,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-12-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":24,"time":"10:30","seconds":630,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] automation engineers, we've had data engineers, now we've got context engineers. What does a context engineer do that data engineers don't?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-12-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":25,"time":"10:38","seconds":638,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"I honestly think that it's more a role for the next one, two or three years, because a lot of that is going to become very mechanical and self-learning, like on how you actually make your context better and enrich your context with additional data and additional rules. So I think the same way we were talking about prompt engineering, like the title doesn't exist anymore, but in point in time, that was something where people needed to really dive very deep into what a prompt should look like, how do you optimize it for the better outcome. I think we're going to get to something similar when it comes to context engineering. And my guess compared to pure data engineering, I would say it's going to be maybe more tied to pure software development rather than pure data engineering. But it is still going to be people that are fairly technical, who understand how to pull the data and how to shape it or to help the agent shape it in the right way. But if everything goes according to plan, agents should be able to do it at some point.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":26,"time":"11:51","seconds":711,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, I think it's just a timing question. That's for sure.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-13-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":27,"time":"11:53","seconds":713,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-13-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":28,"time":"11:55","seconds":715,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Um, so let's show an example here. I know you've got an example of when data in context can fail an agent and how to solve it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":29,"time":"12:03","seconds":723,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah. So let me show a little, maybe I should just start by a quick run through on the product itself, just so that it's easy to understand what is happening behind the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-14-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":30,"time":"12:16","seconds":736,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Perfect.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-14-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":31,"time":"12:16","seconds":736,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] scenes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-14-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":32,"time":"12:16","seconds":736,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah. If you want to talk us through it, I think that works great.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-14-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":33,"time":"12:19","seconds":739,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"So the way the agent engine actually works is, the first thing is, it needs to have access to all the places where you have data. And that won't feel too dissimilar to what Airbyte has been since the beginning, which is, you just have a very simple way to start connecting any one of your systems into the Airbyte engine. Now, the thing that is different, though, is that we offer what we call the context store, which is a way of centralizing the data and to actually make all of this data not just available directly through the API, but also through this context store. And all of that can be directly integrated either through pieces of code that you can embed into your agent directly. So you just need to provide all the right credentials, which connectors you're targeting, etc. And then you can make your agents basically data aware.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":34,"time":"13:31","seconds":811,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"These connectors basically operate in three different modalities. The first one, which is leveraging the context a lot, is what we call discovery and search, which is, it is the ability for the agent to discover what is the universe of data that is made available to it. What are the fields? What are the entities? What are the different documentation that exists on top of that data? The second one is really the ability to retrieve information. So getting, searching, etc, etc. And the last one finally is just how do you interact with upstream and downstream systems? So how do you write information back into these systems?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":35,"time":"14:11","seconds":851,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] So let me ask a couple of questions here. So I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-16-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":36,"time":"14:13","seconds":853,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] Yep.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-16-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":37,"time":"14:14","seconds":854,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"think one of the previous, you know, X is dead narratives, uh, that has emerged on X and hash Twitter has been the idea of, you know, reg is dead. Uh, and now people are going, Oh, right. It's actually still useful. Um, what about folks who would say, Oh, well, reg solves all of these data problems you're having here. Just chunk and embed your data. You know, it'll be fine. What's your response? Why are you building something more complex?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":38,"time":"14:35","seconds":875,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, because actually building RAG is very complex. That is actually the thing that is happening.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-17-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":39,"time":"14:40","seconds":880,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] underrated complexity there for sure.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-17-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":40,"time":"14:42","seconds":882,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] It's like, people, when you start, like, RAG is, to be clear, like, the value proposition of RAG, which is you have a query, you embed it, and you search that embedding through your RAG database. Well, that works, like, you are able to figure out and get pieces of information. But what you quickly realize is that the accuracy is wrong, is off.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-17-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":41,"time":"15:07","seconds":907,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-17-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":42,"time":"15:07","seconds":907,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-17-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":43,"time":"15:07","seconds":907,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] how","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-17-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":44,"time":"15:08","seconds":908,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] so","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-17-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":45,"time":"15:08","seconds":908,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] do you","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-17-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":46,"time":"15:08","seconds":908,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] what","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-17-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":47,"time":"15:08","seconds":908,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] correlate","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-17-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":48,"time":"15:08","seconds":908,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] do you end","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-17-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":49,"time":"15:08","seconds":908,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] the data","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-17-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":50,"time":"15:08","seconds":908,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] up","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-17-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":51,"time":"15:09","seconds":909,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] together? How do you actually search it? Are you using a basic search? Like what, is it semantic search? Like, are you having relational databases in there? Yeah. There's a lot of detail that goes in very","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-17-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":52,"time":"15:19","seconds":919,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-17-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":53,"time":"15:20","seconds":920,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] rapidly.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-17-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":54,"time":"15:20","seconds":920,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"what people start doing is they start, okay, they start chunking the things, but they start putting metadata to make the search more accurate. So they start saying, oh, this sales conversation was talking about pricing, but you know what, let me also annotate that chunk saying that Conor was in the call. So that now when I search it for, data about what calls Conor was having that we're talking about pricing, then you have the right search. But if you don't annotate the data with Conor, well, you're not going to get anything. And that's, to me, what is happening with RAG is that you realize that the accuracy is wrong and you try to fix it You","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":55,"time":"16:02","seconds":962,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] try to fix it before the data gets ingested and you start building very complex machinery that is pulling structured data and unstructured","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-18-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":56,"time":"16:08","seconds":968,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] You create","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-18-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":57,"time":"16:09","seconds":969,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] data.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-18-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":58,"time":"16:09","seconds":969,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] an infrastructure problem that you have to solve essentially.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-18-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":59,"time":"16:11","seconds":971,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] Exactly. Exactly. So, Reg is not dead. It's just the way we're doing it is probably going to die. And what the contextual actually gives you is like this ability to both look at all the metadata that is available and attach it to chunk and more like unstructured type of data. Now what I'm going to do is like show what does it look like when you start I'm going to do a bit of","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-18-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":60,"time":"16:41","seconds":1001,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] before and after. I'm going to start with the after because the before takes a little bit of time.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-18-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":61,"time":"16:45","seconds":1005,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] That's fair, because it seems like the thought process is like, look, an agent needs access to maybe my Salesforce, my GitHub, my Zendesk. How can we actually get them there so it's an effective use of their time and they're not ruining their context window by pulling in too much data?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-18-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":62,"time":"16:59","seconds":1019,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"Absolutely. So here, what I've done is on the cloud product, I've configured a Gong connector. So I'm going to run some analysis on core, very basic ones for now. Let me make sure my MCP is properly configured.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":63,"time":"17:12","seconds":1032,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"This is a large percentage of agent engineering these days is, is my MCP properly configured.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":64,"time":"17:21","seconds":1041,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"What we have here is basically I've pre-configured a connector on Gong. Gong is a very popular transcript sales tool that a lot of sales teams are using. And now what I'm doing is I've added this connector and made it available through MCP, through Cloud. One reason why MCPs are good is just it's universal in terms of how do you access resources. And I'm going to start by just showing what the baseline context looks like. And here you look at it, you see that from startup, Claude uses like 16K token already. And now I'm going to ask it to do a very simple query. on A, retrieve all nice GONG calls since February 1st. Very simple and very common query that any agents might want to do if they want to start running analysis, understanding like objection, understanding","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":65,"time":"18:21","seconds":1101,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] So it's leveraging","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-21-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":66,"time":"18:21","seconds":1101,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] how","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-21-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":67,"time":"18:21","seconds":1101,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] the Gong MCP, I see.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-21-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":68,"time":"18:24","seconds":1104,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, which by the way, behind the scene, when you see all these search actions, is actually leveraging the context store. So it's able to convert NAI into like with NAI in the GONG system. And after that it starts, it finds it and it's able to actually get the listing of all the different calls.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-21-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":69,"time":"18:43","seconds":1123,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And the contact store is this database that you're replicating hourly into a managed data store. So agents can actually search it instead of hitting APIs directly to increase basically contact efficiency. Is that correct?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":70,"time":"18:54","seconds":1134,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"That is correct, especially like if we take Gong for example, when you want to search and get calls for a particular users, well, you cannot filter by the user. So you end up pulling like lists and pages and pages of calls","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":71,"time":"19:09","seconds":1149,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Intrigue.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-23-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":72,"time":"19:09","seconds":1149,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] until","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-23-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":73,"time":"19:09","seconds":1149,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] So their API doesn't actually allow you to filter by user.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-23-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":74,"time":"19:12","seconds":1152,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"No, it doesn't.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":75,"time":"19:13","seconds":1153,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Hmm.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-24-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":76,"time":"19:13","seconds":1153,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] Some part of the APIs do. So here, typically, we see, OK, 45 calls took about a minute. And what is interesting, though, is to look at the context consumption to get access to all this information. I forgot where we were, but basically 37,000 now. I think we're at around 26 at boot up. Now, the thing that is interesting is to look at what does it look like when you make your agent only rely on API calls. So here I have a version of it that is not going to be using Cloud. but that will still have access to listing and getting and retrieving information. So context, still the same when it boots up, about 16K, so that was 16K. And now let's ask exactly the same question. And so here, you end up in a state where your agent has to know","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-24-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":77,"time":"20:13","seconds":1213,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] has to work around all the deficiencies of APIs. And so when agents have deficiencies, like when APIs have deficiencies, it means that you need to build more to make your agent efficient. And typically an example here is you cannot search for users. So what do you need to do? You need to go through all the pages and you need to find who is naive in my system. And what happened then is like people start saying, oh, then I need to replicate that data if I don't want to be paginating through all these pages. And so bit by bit, they start building their own homegrown version of the contextual because they want that efficient access for these very simple queries.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-24-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":78,"time":"20:54","seconds":1254,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I have admittedly done this very recently, so","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-24-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":79,"time":"20:56","seconds":1256,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-24-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":80,"time":"20:57","seconds":1257,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] this is interesting to see.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-24-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":81,"time":"20:59","seconds":1259,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] that's just a pattern because you start with API and then you end up putting your finger in a big machinery where you have to rebuild data centralization. You need to build indices. You need to build searches. You need to build relationship between different concepts. And here, like the very degenerate example is, well, I need all these calls. And what do I need to do? Because I cannot filter by my NAI user. I need to go through every single course over the past month and a half and I can tell you this takes about three minutes to run so what I'm going to do is just show you something a little bit different and we can see after that like how much time it's taken overall because well it has to hit the API, it has to go for, like, what are the, like, API rate limits. It has to do a lot of things that it shouldn't have to do and things that can actually cause your agents to break. So good thing, this time it worked and it's great. Like, normally it takes about three minutes and often you have more than 45 calls because it has so much bloat in the context. that it's unable to fully filter by the one made by Ni. And you see in terms of token consumption,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-24-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":82,"time":"22:15","seconds":1335,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, 62k.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-24-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":83,"time":"22:15","seconds":1335,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] we're basically consuming almost like 30,000 more tokens than we were","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-24-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":84,"time":"22:22","seconds":1342,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Wow,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-24-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":85,"time":"22:22","seconds":1342,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] before.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-24-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":86,"time":"22:22","seconds":1342,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-24-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":87,"time":"22:22","seconds":1342,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] And that's just a very simple example. So now imagine when you have very complex agents. Yeah, so that's a little bit like the value of what it means to have a good context. Now the thing where it becomes even more interesting is when you start doing what I call joins across different systems. So for example, this one is very simple. I want to look at all the TKs that were created. Let's do yesterday because today just started. And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-24-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":88,"time":"22:55","seconds":1375,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] This","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-24-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":89,"time":"22:55","seconds":1375,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] give","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-24-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":90,"time":"22:55","seconds":1375,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-24-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":91,"time":"22:55","seconds":1375,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] me","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-24-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":92,"time":"22:55","seconds":1375,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] where","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-24-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":93,"time":"22:55","seconds":1375,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] also,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-24-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":94,"time":"22:56","seconds":1376,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I have to admit I haven't used co-work that much.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-24-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":95,"time":"22:59","seconds":1379,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":96,"time":"22:59","seconds":1379,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I've been trying to become a power user of Claude Code, but I still need to integrate co-work into my workflow a bit more.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":97,"time":"23:05","seconds":1385,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, it's actually how I also as a CEO, how I like to dig by myself into how different parts of the organization are working. So I have my own MCP that I call the CRM MCP that has like Gong, Salesforce, Zendesk. There is a fourth one. well whatever but basically what it's doing here is just able to pull things from uh zendesk then it's able to resolve the organization in zendesk into what do they look like on gong and then it's going to be able to just pull me all the different gong calls and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-26-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
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{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":99,"time":"23:41","seconds":1421,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] this","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-26-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":100,"time":"23:41","seconds":1421,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] correlation","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-26-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":101,"time":"23:41","seconds":1421,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] is something like","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-26-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":102,"time":"23:41","seconds":1421,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] is really nice.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-26-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":103,"time":"23:42","seconds":1422,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"Exactly. The correlation is so important for agents. But also, this is a place where agents are actually very good at. As long as you give them the ability to self-improve. Like, if I'm searching for, I don't know, let's take Airbyte as a company, and maybe it's misspelled on Zendesk, or maybe someone put Airbyte Inc., but on Salesforce it's called Airbyte. doing this type of correlation by just hitting APIs, your agent is in for a treat here. Because it might not work, the API might kick you off, the API might not have fuzzy searches, etc. It might not have embedding. And that's really what you get is this ability to automatically create these different mappings between different systems.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":104,"time":"24:33","seconds":1473,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So tell me more about the background data architecture that's powering all this. You're basically reducing API calls to a schema search within the database?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":105,"time":"24:45","seconds":1485,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"Yeah, so what we do today is we have our own query engine. So yes, what we do is we basically have created a full data pipeline that hourly, or depending on how you've configured the context, can replicate the data more or less frequently. And then we index that data. One thing that we are going to do on the contextual is support a stronger embedded BLE Bear also with unstructured data. But right now for like structured data and very simple like fuzzy matching, it works extremely well and it allows you to just you know, even if you have unstructured data, even if you don't have embedded to always get the right transcript because all this metadata is tied to that transcript and you can already get it. So now imagine you have also the embedding on top of that, like your search is just so good. And in terms of data engineering, yes, it's just, very close to what Airbyte is known for, which is, A, you connect to the systems, you load this data into the systems, and then you do some post-processing on the data to make sure that agents can have the most accurate data. And it's exposed either through directly an API, it is exposed through MCPs. And we also have, sorry, I'm gonna share my screen again, one last time.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":106,"time":"26:12","seconds":1572,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And for context for the audience, you have open sourced the Agent Connector SDK that powers a lot of this.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":107,"time":"26:20","seconds":1580,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"Exactly. And that's exactly what I want you to show, which is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":108,"time":"26:22","seconds":1582,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Perfect.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-31-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":109,"time":"26:22","seconds":1582,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] we have also a repository that contains all the agent connectors that we have. So those can connect, like read and write from API, and they can also interact with the contexter. And if we take a very simple example, let's take, yeah, we just released ClickUp yesterday, so I think it's a good one. You can actually see all the types of questions or tasks that this connector can do for your agent. So you can almost automatically populate your agent with those and it can understand the scope of operation it can perform. And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-31-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":110,"time":"27:06","seconds":1626,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] So","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-31-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":111,"time":"27:06","seconds":1626,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] then all the information about how you integrate it into your actual agent.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-31-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":112,"time":"27:11","seconds":1631,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"how are you combating context bloat with these connectors? Because that's obviously a problem that I'm sure many folks have run into where you just end up feeding too much information to your LLM and it begins to be uncertain about what it should be prioritizing. Or you just simply burn too many tokens as we showed earlier.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":113,"time":"27:31","seconds":1651,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"Yeah, so the search actually is very scoped. So the first thing is a lot of this is done on the back end to make sure that we only return what we believe is the most relevant information. So that's the first part. And that's one thing you will have a hard time doing with APIs, because it will just return to you the whole block of information. Now, one thing that, and this is something we're building at the moment, is how do we create more of like a a data retrieval agent. So something that gets a sense of what is the task at end and can, on our side, figure out what are the different pieces of information that you might need and make it available to the calling agent.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":114,"time":"28:14","seconds":1694,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And these kind of agent handoffs, I think, are increasingly important as we start working within agent teams. I mean, whether or not you're coding in Gastown or you're using, you know, parallel teams in Claude Code or something else there, increasingly we need to hand off to other agents.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":115,"time":"28:30","seconds":1710,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"Yes, and that's really the solution. At the end of the day, we go back to a very standard engineering problem, which is if you have a monolith, well, it's very hard to control what's going on. So if you just have one agent that does everything, you will have context bloat, you will have accuracy issues, etc. And it's better to just spin up a smaller agent that knows what it does and does it super well. So decomposition.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":116,"time":"28:59","seconds":1739,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I will shout out agency.org here, which is an organization that I was part of building when I was at Galileo and we kicked it off with Cisco and many other great partners, now part of the Linux Foundation. But I think these kind of open efforts, and there are others that are in the open too, to ensure agents can connect and work together are just going to be so crucial for the next couple of years because we can't have these be black boxes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":117,"time":"29:24","seconds":1764,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"Correct. Yeah. And also it's just like not every company can build excellency in one specific domain.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":118,"time":"29:34","seconds":1774,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Bye.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-37-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":119,"time":"29:34","seconds":1774,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] So, you know, we see Firecrawl. Why does Firecrawl exist when every company needs to crawl the web? It's because they know how to create agents that crawl the web and then they just hand you off the information.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-37-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":120,"time":"29:45","seconds":1785,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So this is a brief sidebar, but I do think that the idea that this was kind of driven this kind of SaaS apocalypse in the public markets, I think it's very overblown. Like there are many problems with SaaS companies, many of them vastly overhired and are bloated and have issues. Many of them are in trouble. But most SaaS solutions, if they get really good at what they do, if they drill down, Why would I try to build that in-house? I don't actually want to build my own CRM. I want a good CRM that I don't have to worry about, that has support and training for my salespeople and everything else. So","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":121,"time":"30:19","seconds":1819,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-38-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":122,"time":"30:19","seconds":1819,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] it's interesting to see this narrative emerge. There's going to be a ton of custom software, but it's not always better to build versus buy.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-38-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":123,"time":"30:26","seconds":1826,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, absolutely. I would say the only thing is it might not be the existing player, it might be other players that specialize into CRM made available to agents. But I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-38-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":124,"time":"30:37","seconds":1837,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Totally.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-38-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":125,"time":"30:37","seconds":1837,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] think going out of your habits of that model was working and just how do I reinvent myself to make it work in a world where agents are the only one or the main ones interacting with my system. You need to really reinvent yourself and that might cannibalize your existing business.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-38-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":126,"time":"30:56","seconds":1856,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, that's super true. And not every business currently wants to make that pivot. I mean, I think Google is a great example here where they were slower to build Gemini and to build in AI features than they maybe otherwise would have been because an incumbent, they have the best business in the world that spits out cash every month, every day for them. from this incredible search business, and they were very worried about cannibalizing it. So they were slower to market on the AI side, despite having driven a lot of the research, despite having","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-38-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":127,"time":"31:25","seconds":1885,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-38-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":128,"time":"31:25","seconds":1885,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] this incredible technical team. And it did give some first-mover advantage to folks like OpenAI and Anthropic and others. So it's going to be really interesting to see how this all shakes out. There's definitely huge changes happening. I mean, the Block layoff is a great example where, and for folks who are interested, I wrote a long, like 6,600, way too many words, essay. You can check it out on my newsletter at newsletter.chainofthought.show, which it is, of course, always linked in the show notes, or just go to conorbronsdon.substack.com. Block decided to lay off 40% of their engineering staff. We actually had their VP of AI dev tools on the podcast like a month and a half ago at this point. talking about how they're building their agent infrastructure with their open source agent goose, a lot of what they're doing here, I think is really tied into the philosophy that Michel's talking about. And Block basically said, we are going to redo our company with an inference first mindset, having intelligence at the center. And I think that's what you're getting at here, Michel, is like we all have to reimagine how our organizations work, how we are working, how we're providing data. And I think you're clearly thinking about this this transformation in the right way. And we're going to keep seeing it in public markets as major companies completely reconfigure how they're spending money, whether it's on headcount, whether it's on inference, how they're spending staff. It's causing a lot of disruption and it's just getting started.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-38-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":129,"time":"32:44","seconds":1964,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"Yeah. I mean, the thing to think about is whether LLM is the future or not, we don't know what kind of new generation of models are going to come in","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":130,"time":"32:53","seconds":1973,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] on.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-39-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":131,"time":"32:53","seconds":1973,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] the future. The thing is, We used to rely on CPU as the engine that makes our product work. Today we've shifted to the LLM or the model that makes my product work. And so all the economics are changing now. You buy your CPU, you have a piece of hardware and you can use it until it burns out. An LLM is like a live system, like you need to have your GPUs behind the scene, but in a way, it's like your execution, it becomes your execution platform. And I think that's something that is very, very hard, especially when you have a very well-established business to rethink, which is, I'm not building on top of a CPU, I'm building on top of an LLM that itself is running on top of a GPU, but who cares now about GPUs? I'm kidding.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-39-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":132,"time":"33:42","seconds":2022,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, well, we're going to talk TPUs here soon, I'm sure. Let's get back to the design decisions that you've made around agents and providing them context and data. As you've been building this context management for agents, this context store, You mentioned you have an hourly sync cadence as the baseline. That's a very specific design decision. For teams that need fresher data than that, what's the answer? And also, why did you make that decision?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-39-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":133,"time":"34:13","seconds":2053,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] The moment you need to cache, index information, you're going to have latency in how fresh the data is. So that's just, no matter what type of context are","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-39-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":134,"time":"34:25","seconds":2065,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Table","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-39-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":135,"time":"34:25","seconds":2065,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] you building,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-39-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":136,"time":"34:25","seconds":2065,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] stakes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-39-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":137,"time":"34:25","seconds":2065,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"you have to.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":138,"time":"34:29","seconds":2069,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"The hourly one, I mean, first of all, that's more like the default. People can get to different plans and have like faster ones, but it's also that What you don't want in the example, for example, that I showed is look at too much by just interacting with APIs. Like APIs do a decent job generally in that getting the latest version of the data. So the way we always think about it, and we build our own agents internally, is that we always have this hybrid approach, one where you get the understanding of the world through searches, through discovery. But if you want to get and make sure that you have the most fresh data, well, you can rely on the context. It's generally not too old. But you can also, if you want, just pull that information directly from the API. And APIs are very good at retrieving one object as long as you know what this object is. So, you know, if I'm searching for Conor, if I don't know your ID on Stripe, for example, I have to go through Stripe, all of the users. But if the cache tells me that Conor is ID 123, then I can go to Stripe and say, get me ID 123. And I get the freshest data. So for me, like this hybrid thing is going to work.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":139,"time":"35:47","seconds":2147,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Okay, so you're tracking entities across these data sources too. So like the same person","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-41-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":140,"time":"35:51","seconds":2151,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] Correct.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-41-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":141,"time":"35:51","seconds":2151,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] appearing in Salesforce and Zendesk, and maybe I'm in a Gong call too. You're doing that without embeddings though often.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-41-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":142,"time":"35:58","seconds":2158,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"Correct. I mean, we have a little bit more logic here, but yes, we have a lot of fuzzy matching, like connections that are created between systems, but that's the idea, yes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":143,"time":"36:09","seconds":2169,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"What drove you to reimagine Erbite's approach in this way? Obviously, Erbite became a unicorn back in, what, 2021? Solving a different problem, this idea of, you know, an open source data pipeline company for, for humans is now being rebuilt around agents. I have to imagine from the incumbency perspective of what we talked about earlier with Salesforce and Google and others having to make these tough decisions. I'm sure you had to make some of those decisions internally too, of like, how do I change the direction of the company? What, what really landed you on, this is where we need to go.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":144,"time":"36:43","seconds":2203,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"Because as everyone is saying, the problem is not in the model today, the problem is in the data that you provide. And we know what it means to solve a data problem because we've solved it for analytics and BI. And the only thing we had to do was really rethink about the personnel that we're addressing. We're not just addressing a human in front of a warehouse, we're also addressing a developer and an agent accessing that data. And so there was a little bit of a shift in terms of adding on top of the product we already have, but it was more like a rethinking the persona, but the data pipes, we already had those. And we know that those actually matters in that era. So I would say our","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":145,"time":"37:30","seconds":2250,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] rethinking of the strategy when it comes to how do we address that market wasn't as hard as some other company might have, which the whole business is down if they don't pivot. We have, it's actually more like a step up rather than a 180.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-44-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":146,"time":"37:48","seconds":2268,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] So it's more of how do we restructure what we're already doing so agents can access it more easily and just provide a different means of accessing the data that we're already","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-44-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":147,"time":"37:54","seconds":2274,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-44-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":148,"time":"37:54","seconds":2274,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] pulling together.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-44-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":149,"time":"37:56","seconds":2276,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"The big difference is that in the past, we've always been just a pipe. Now, because we want to have an offer that context store, we are also storing pieces of data. So on behalf of customers. So that's, I would say a bit of a different in terms of the business.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":150,"time":"38:12","seconds":2292,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Interesting. Okay. Yeah, and I know you, you know, before coming to Erabyte, you were at LiveRamp where you were running a lot of data ingestion and distribution. And it seems like that experience has informed just this entire first stage of Erabyte and now this maybe second era that appears to be emerging.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":151,"time":"38:33","seconds":2313,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"Yeah, absolutely. I've understood how nothing happens if you don't have data that is flowing between systems. It is so critical. People don't know it's happening, but it's happening every single day. If you don't have the right data, nothing works.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":152,"time":"38:51","seconds":2331,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So if we think a year ahead, and I know that's a long time in AI land, but let's, let's look, let's try to push out for a year. What does, what does success look like here? What, what do you think agents need to be doing and how do they need to be operating differently and hopefully enabled by your context work?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":153,"time":"39:10","seconds":2350,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"Yeah. To me, it's more, it's not so much about agent, but it's more about how we leverage them. That needs to, that's going to evolve is, I forgot who wrote that is just these different layers of agent adoption, where you really start by, you know, if you're a developer, you go on your IDE, you just open up cloud and you just do pair programming with cloud. Then you go to the next level, you go to the next level. What, I want us to, like what I see us doing as a human race in a way, like, and just taking the code as an example, is that we... have shifted our systems to actually enable autonomous and to trust the agent. And it doesn't mean that we should trust, and I think this is more like a mentality shift, like humans have a problem, like trust, like expecting nothing, like they expect nothing else than 100% success from a robot. When ourself, we are flawed and we do like 60% or 70%, we write software with bugs, but we expect an agent to write it without bugs. And so for me, what I'm hoping we get to by probably by the summer, yeah, let's give it three months, is that people realize that in code, it's okay for an agent to make bugs. Like, we're not searching for something that is better than us right now. We're just looking for something that can create massive throughput and can self-correct. And that to me is what we should be looking for. And whatever I can do on my end to enable it, I'll do it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":154,"time":"40:48","seconds":2448,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Fantastic. Michel, this has been an awesome conversation. I really appreciate you both showcasing some of the work you're doing, talking through your perspective on the space. One final question before I ask you for some links for folks to follow your work. And I know one of those is going to be your agent blueprint on Substack, which you've just started out. I'm curious about your thoughts on memory management versus context management. I'll preview here that I may come out the week before this episode, may come out the week after. I'm doing a deep dive on memory management with Richmond Alake over at Oracle, where we just talk focused on like, how can we help solve agent memory challenges? How do you, do you think about the interrelation between agent memory and context and how teams should be thinking about improving in those areas?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":155,"time":"41:37","seconds":2497,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"It's an interesting question. In my head, I try not to separate things too fast, because at the end of the day, memory is a form of context. Context is just an understanding of the world. That's what it is. And memory is part of your understanding of the world. And if we want to take like human images here, like I have contact, like everything I've learned in school, but I also have memories, which is, yeah, I was a kid and that all of that becomes pieces of information. So I'm trying not to differentiate the two too much. Yes, maybe the access, the, the, the window by which you remember it is different, but at the end of the day, it's just","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":156,"time":"42:19","seconds":2539,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] but recognize how interconnected","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-51-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":157,"time":"42:21","seconds":2541,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-51-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":158,"time":"42:21","seconds":2541,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"they are.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":159,"time":"42:22","seconds":2542,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"Uh, it's just, it's data that is going to land somewhere in your agent and you have a way to query it, update it. And, um, and that's what it is. Sorry. I'm looking at it very much from like a data perspective,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":160,"time":"42:33","seconds":2553,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] No,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-53-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":161,"time":"42:33","seconds":2553,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] which is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-53-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
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{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":166,"time":"42:34","seconds":2554,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] think","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-53-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
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{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":168,"time":"42:34","seconds":2554,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] it's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-53-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
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{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":170,"time":"42:34","seconds":2554,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] interesting","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-53-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":171,"time":"42:35","seconds":2555,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] it's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-53-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":172,"time":"42:35","seconds":2555,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":173,"time":"42:35","seconds":2555,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] just","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-54-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":174,"time":"42:35","seconds":2555,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] get these","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-54-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":175,"time":"42:35","seconds":2555,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] a","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-54-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":176,"time":"42:35","seconds":2555,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] perspectives.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-54-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":177,"time":"42:35","seconds":2555,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] data.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-54-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":178,"time":"42:36","seconds":2556,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, because,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":179,"time":"42:36","seconds":2556,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":180,"time":"42:37","seconds":2557,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"yeah, really, really interesting. Michel, it's been a fantastic conversation. Like I said, where can folks go to follow your work and learn more about Airbyte's new agent builder and agent connectors?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":181,"time":"42:46","seconds":2566,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, I mean, I would always start with our website, airbyte.com and otherwise, as you said, I have a sub stack. I might just give you the link after that. And LinkedIn.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-57-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":182,"time":"42:58","seconds":2578,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I will link your sub stack. I've read a couple of the pieces actually in my sub stack article about this. So that will","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-57-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":183,"time":"43:03","seconds":2583,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] Nice.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-57-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":184,"time":"43:03","seconds":2583,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] come out. Don't worry.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-57-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":185,"time":"43:05","seconds":2585,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"And LinkedIn as well. I'm pretty active over there.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":186,"time":"43:07","seconds":2587,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Fantastic.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-58-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":187,"time":"43:08","seconds":2588,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"[OVERLAP] Maybe I should be more active on X, but I have limited time.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-58-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":188,"time":"43:13","seconds":2593,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Well, Michel, thank you so much for the conversation. Listeners, if you enjoyed this, please let us know in the comments or the rating and review. It means the world to us. We'd love to hear from you and we would love to hear who you think we should have on next. So thank you so much for listening and hope everyone has a great rest of your week.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it","episode":52,"guid":"ae5aee92-b6fa-4ed0-b0d8-c945f377cb6b","episodeTitle":"Context Poisoning is Killing Your AI Agents: How to Stop it | Michel Tricot, Airbyte","publishedAt":"2026-03-25","segmentIndex":189,"time":"43:31","seconds":2611,"speaker":"Michel Tricot","text":"Thank you, Conor.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/52-context-poisoning-is-killing-your-ai-agents-how-to-stop-it/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"The first year, dude, like nothing like crickets. The next half of that year, we got another like 8000 people. And then I went to China on vacations and I came back and it was like 36000 people. And I was like, whoa. And then it like did it again in like another month. And I was like, oh, my God. OK, we got to implement some rules here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:21","seconds":21,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Welcome back to Chain of Thought, everyone. I am your host, Conor Bronsdon, Head of Technical Ecosystem at Modular, and delighted to be back with you as a friend of mine is joining the podcast today. But first, I want to say thanks to our presenting sponsors, Galileo, for making this episode happen. And that friend is Yujian Tang. Yujian is well-known in the ecosystem, running some incredible events, building great content, tinkering. He's someone that, particularly if you're in the Pacific Northwest or the Bay Area, you may know if you were involved in AI. Eugene, great to see you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":2,"time":"0:52","seconds":52,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"Great to see you, Conor.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":3,"time":"0:54","seconds":54,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Why don't you tell our audience a bit more about yourself, since I know there are plenty of folks who know you from your work at Seattle Startup Summit and elsewhere, but I think it'd be great to give the audience some context before we dive into the meat of our discussion.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":4,"time":"1:06","seconds":66,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"So now I run events and developer community and work on that stuff. But previously, I was a software engineer, so I come from a very technical background. I got into software engineering because I was originally doing AI research in the 2010s. you know, back then computer vision was kind of like the big thing and it was popular. So I did some computer vision research, I did some data research, and then I worked on some natural language processing as a company. I tried to build like a natural language processing startup at one point, but through that what I found was that I was pretty good at kind of like teaching people how to do AI, how to use AI stuff. And then I found that doing events was this kind of like interesting niche fun space where there weren't a lot of really good events that I saw. And so I started doing them and now I run the largest startup event in the Pacific Northwest, which is Seattle Startup Summit. And last year we had about 900 people and we're hoping to get maybe like, you know, 1,200 or 1,500 people this year.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":5,"time":"2:10","seconds":130,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It's super exciting. It was a great event last year. And it's really interesting for me as someone who's also actively having these conversations, just to see where you show up. I feel like everywhere I look, I'm like, oh, you should, you should know that person. You shouldn't have been there. Whether it's like, you know, throwing a hackathon in San Francisco or, oh, like you're, you know, you were involved in, you know, these researchers. Or, oh, look, like you're working on raising a fund, which we're going to talk about. Or like your dev advocate work at Zillow's previously to your guest lecturing at Stanford. You're kind of all over the place and just deeply embedded in the ecosystem. But I love this story of how you got involved, because I think it's a really important thing for people to understand contextually. And not everyone, I think, or not everyone thinks about how this process has happened, where it's gone from, you know, researchers are doing AI to more developers are doing AI to now there's this whole class of AI engineers. It's everywhere. And like, even now, I would say we're seeing this transition to individuals are being enabled by AI around the world where like everyone at my company is being encouraged to use co-work and Claude Code, whether or not they're deeply technical. So I think this is happening all over the place now. And I'm kind of curious on your thoughts on where this wave is going, because there's so much there's so much hype involved in the space. And we've seen both sides of that. But there's also this perception of, oh, this is this is all a bubble that comes in. And I think anyone who's listening to the show probably knows, like, look, you know, there are some bubbling aspects and what's happening for sure. But this is a transformative technology that is going to change the way we work, in fact, has already changed the way we work. and has so many more impacts down the line. But you've kind of been here since the inception of the modern movement. What's your take on how things have evolved and where they're going?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":6,"time":"4:03","seconds":243,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, so I had just started research, you know, in like the late, like 2016 or something like that. And so I wasn't like, you know, building the CNNs back in like 2012 when AlexNet was coming out. But even so, in the last 10 years, like the evolution of Neural nets has been has been crazy. It's just been like, you know In in in 2016, you know, we're kind of at the space where it's all convolutional neural nets 2017 you have the attention is all you need the transformers paper, right? That was like super big came out. It was like super popular a lot of sightings and then Actually, one of my friends, I don't know if you met Yin Han last year but she is She was one of the authors, I think she was the first author on the Roberta paper, which was another like, you know, Transformer-like paper that came out of Meta. From basically, you know, 2017 to 2022, we were just kind of like building larger nets, and that's kind of like just pushing the scaling laws. And then, you know, I think now we've kind of gotten to the point, you know, when Chatscript came out, basically we were like, oh, like there really is like a switch somewhere that happens where the amount of parameters, the amount of data, and just the amount of compute that you have that goes into these models really starts to give you this feeling that you're talking to like a person. And I think, and I still see this, like, conversation, these conversations online, especially with like the whole, like, Clodbot, Moltbot,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-5-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":7,"time":"5:33","seconds":333,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Moltbot,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-5-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":8,"time":"5:34","seconds":334,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] open...","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-5-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":9,"time":"5:34","seconds":334,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] whatever it's called now.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-5-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":10,"time":"5:36","seconds":336,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"Yeah, yeah, that thing, like, there's a ton of people, like, talking about, like, oh, like, is this, like, Sentience? It's like, this is the chat you'll be seeing all over again. I don't want to get too into the metaphysics of, like, what is Sentience? So we'll skip that. But, like, you know, seeing all of this stuff really shows you that, the technology is definitely transformational. It's there. People, like you said, people are using it. It's transforming work. It's transforming the way that people live. And in some ways it's transforming the way that people live for the better. And in some ways it's transforming the way that people live for the worse. People are kind of getting into this thing where, you know, like they're like becoming codependent on the AI. And I would say that's probably worse for people. But then, you know, like if you think about when the internet came along, like, The internet also introduced new problems for people to kind of deal with, right? Like previously you probably couldn't get email phishing, right? That's a new thing. And now it's like, okay, now you're getting like AI bot scams, which is like a new problem, right? But then there's like the benefits of it. And so like the benefits you can kind of see are like, you know, the internet creates this connectivity. We wouldn't be able to be having this conversation as easily if it weren't for the internet.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":11,"time":"6:49","seconds":409,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Totally.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":12,"time":"6:51","seconds":411,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"AI also helps you create like more, like it kind of like accelerates things that you would regularly do. And so some of these things are like, oh, like I want to edit something that I wrote. Like I would say, I would suggest that you probably shouldn't use AI to write your first drafts, but like, I know people do. And, oh, this is funny. I got an email recently where someone was like, oh, like blah blah blah this is my blah blah blah blah and then it was like if you want to schedule some time with me and then it was just like insert link and i was like oh yeah","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":13,"time":"7:24","seconds":444,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Hmm,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-8-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":14,"time":"7:24","seconds":444,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] okay totally","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-8-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":15,"time":"7:25","seconds":445,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] okay.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-8-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":16,"time":"7:26","seconds":446,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"ai um so like there's i think there's there's this kind of like you know feeling that we we've gotten to a point where it's really started to get some applications right so the research is there the technology is there now it's like how do we apply this in a way that kind of is able to benefit people is able to to really um to really make lives better um and of course there's always the fear that you know like oh ai is taking your job because it makes it easier it makes it accelerated but it's like okay like it will probably just produce new jobs same thing with the internet right it just produces new jobs there's new things that you have to do Um and I also saw something that was like on Reddit recently that was like about uh um coding and it was just like oh like as a as a coder previously what I would have to do is I'd have to read the docs and I would have to you know read the the example code and then like debug and I would read the terminal output and now what I do is I read the docs. But of something else, I read a different set of docs and now I read a different set of output and I check that, oh, these lines are fine here. This is the diff between these two files. And it's like, okay, yeah, it's very similar still. It is just more advanced. It accelerates things. And I think, you know, over the past few years, we've had a ton of investments into, I guess what I would call infrastructure technology. In the 2018-2022","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":17,"time":"8:59","seconds":539,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"phase, we saw a ton of investment into MLOps. which basically once ChatsDB came about, it just quickly flipped the switch into LLM Ops. And now we've seen a lot of investment into this set of infrastructure tools, which I think, you know, some of these you can call Ops tools, some of these you can call Builder tools, some of these you can call whatever it is that you want to call them, it's like things that makes building AI easier. And we've seen a ton of investment in that. We've seen a ton of spend. I just made a post on LinkedIn recently, and it was like, oh, like this spending on AI from this time last year is up like 44%, which is a lot. And it's like a bubble, you know, it does feel like a bubble. And if you remember in 2000, we had the dot com crash, which felt like it was like the bubble for the internet and it's still here. It's still around. It's clearly grown since then. And I, I would not be surprised. I'm not going to say that we are going to see something like that, but I would not be surprised if we saw something like that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":18,"time":"10:01","seconds":601,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Totally.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":19,"time":"10:02","seconds":602,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":20,"time":"10:03","seconds":603,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"At least we're going to see some companies fail at a minimum, right? Like not every AI company is going to be a massive success, despite some of the valuations we're seeing. Is it going to be systemic? I mean, I think there's arguments for there being risk, but it doesn't mean that technology is going to wipe out. It means that we're going to see a bit of a reset of valuations.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":21,"time":"10:22","seconds":622,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"And I would love to see that, especially as an early stage investor.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":22,"time":"10:27","seconds":627,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, so tell me about this investment side of things. I know you have been getting more deeply involved in AI investing in particular the last year or two. What's happening on that front and what are you seeing?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":23,"time":"10:39","seconds":639,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"Yeah. So one of the things about having a community and about building a community, I think is, okay, so there's multiple sides to it, but let's like simplify it in the sense that you'll need some sort of funding. you'll need a set of people who kind of are all interested in similar technology or similar topic. In this case, it'll be a technology. And you need to find a way to give back to this community. And so one of the things that I really enjoyed about my community work was And this came as a total accident was getting early stage founders to come in like demo and pitch. So I held this event and I did the classic, you know, tech event talk style. You have a few panels, a few speakers, usually their sponsors, and then, you know, you have them speak. But one time, This one company sponsored, it's a big AI company, so I'm not going to say who they are, but they sponsored my event and then they didn't show up. And so I was like, well, we have this like 30 minute slot that if we have like, you know, a few people who want to come and demo. And so I just basically went up to the stage and was like, is anybody brave enough to come do a live demo of their tool? And this was like something that people really loved. Like people came up to me after and they were like, hey, that was cool. I would love to do that next time. I just wasn't ready this time. And I was like, oh, wait, maybe we could just have this as a recurring session. And so like I played around with it a little bit and then we just started adding it as like a recurring thing to the events that we do. And, um. I put up a form that was basically like, if you want to demo and you've raised only a small amount of money, like this is for you. Like, this is the way we give back to the community. Like we, we give these builders a way to showcase what they're building before, you know, they go in and raise like 10, 20, $30 million and whatever. And so then we, we had companies like WordWare, which, you know, was super popular in 2024, uh, that, you know, eventually they raised a $30 million round a few months later. And then, um, we had some, Really new like open source projects like assistant UI Which now just raised like a 4.5 million dollar seed round So we saw a lot of these projects coming by and at first it was just like okay, you know You're just giving builders like a way to show off what they're doing But then I kind of looked back like towards like the middle of last year in like 2025 and I was like, huh? a lot of these companies are actually like going on and like raising rounds and like, you know, the valuations are going up. And some of these people, like I've known from like very early stages. And so I'm like, maybe I should get into investing. So last year I put some money into Aperture Capital, which is a","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":24,"time":"13:17","seconds":797,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] VC firm run by Don Shu, who's a guy at the Python Software Foundation. I think he's like a fellow or something. He's like someone who's important in there. And then Enrico, and I can't remember Enrico's last name, but he's managed like billions of dollars before. And so these guys were doing investment for a while. I've known Don since like 2021. And I was like, hey, I'm interested in investing. I'm going to put some money into your next fund. And then I thought, oh, wait a second. So there was like a couple of things here, but I thought, oh, wait a second. What if I raise the fund because, you know, like these guys will invest in whatever it is that they're investing in, but I could also invest in specifically the.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-16-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":25,"time":"13:58","seconds":838,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Right. You're getting deal flow. You're seeing these early deals. You can do this directly.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-16-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":26,"time":"14:02","seconds":842,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] Exactly. I'm seeing the early deals. I'm getting deal flow. So I was like, I can invest in some of these companies. And so, um, I talked to some investors and they told me about how they got started. And I was like, well, it sounds like it's hard, but Hey, you know what? We'll give it a go. And so, uh, I, you know, started the formation. We actually like just filed the formation. I was hoping to file them in January, but things kind of like, I had to like find a, um, This is like things that people don't tell you about are like, Oh, like in order to do this, you have to get like a lawyer to basically file things for you. And because you can't file, I mean, you can file it yourself, but it's like, it's a, it's,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-16-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":27,"time":"14:35","seconds":875,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] It's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-16-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":28,"time":"14:36","seconds":876,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] it's a real","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-16-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":29,"time":"14:36","seconds":876,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] not","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-16-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":30,"time":"14:36","seconds":876,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] hassle.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-16-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":31,"time":"14:36","seconds":876,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] going to go well. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-16-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":32,"time":"14:37","seconds":877,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah. Yeah. It's a real hassle. You have to have. So typically venture funds will have three instates. They'll have an LLC, a GP and an LP. And so what we did was we were like, we're not going to take any, um, You need management fees. And so we'll just have a GP and an LP. And then you need to get an EIN for both. You need to set up a bank account for both and you need addresses. And I was like, well, I don't, I'm not going to use my house as an address.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-16-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":33,"time":"15:00","seconds":900,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Got to get a PO box or something.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-16-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":34,"time":"15:02","seconds":902,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"We get a PO box in Delaware. Uh, so, you know, then I did, I went through and did all these things. And so now it's like, okay, we could finally file and raise money and stuff.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":35,"time":"15:11","seconds":911,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Okay. I'm curious now, did you have to fly to Delaware or did you use a service that is just forwarding?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":36,"time":"15:17","seconds":917,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] No, so, um, I found out about this thing called, uh, stable and, uh, it's like, um, Stripe recommended it to me. So I use, I use Stripe for, for, you know, taking credit cards. And so,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-18-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":37,"time":"15:28","seconds":928,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I mean, of course. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-18-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":38,"time":"15:29","seconds":929,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"yeah. And so, so this was like recommended by Stripe. And so I was like, okay, let's check it out. And it's like, I think it's like $50 a month, like something like that. So I was like, okay, we'll try it out, you know?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":39,"time":"15:41","seconds":941,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I, as an aside, I absolutely love that Stripe has their percent of global GDP running on Stripe, uh, on the main screen of their webpage now, like right here on the homepage. It's like, Oh, as of today, early February, it's 1.56%. Like, God, what an ambitious company.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":40,"time":"16:01","seconds":961,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"That's pretty amazing. Yeah. I love that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":41,"time":"16:04","seconds":964,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I love this journey. Like you obviously have been deeply involved in the community for a while. I mean, like we're talking about events here, but you've been, I think you, you started the RAI agent subreddit.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":42,"time":"16:15","seconds":975,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"Yeah, yeah I started the AI underscore agent subreddit and I specified there's an underscore because there's multiple AI agent subreddits now. But I started this subreddit back in like April of 2023 because I was at Zillis and I was working on RAG and after like doing like some work on RAG I was like dude this is important like there's a really not like okay there's a lot to RAG if you get really deeply into it but like you know There's not that much to it. There's not that much to it. And I was like, and then, um, auto GBT was this project that was like super popular at the time. And nobody knew like really what to call it either. And then like, I heard somebody like float this idea of this thing called agents. And I was like, huh. I bet this would be cool. Let's build a community around that. And so I made, I just made the subreddit and it was like AI agents. And I did like the things you would normally do to build communities online. You know, you have like a weekly thread. We had project displays. We had questions. I think we're going to add hiring this year because there's been a bunch of people who are posting like hiring like posts on the subreddit. And I'm kind of like, I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":43,"time":"17:19","seconds":1039,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] You","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-23-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":44,"time":"17:19","seconds":1039,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] don't really","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-23-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":45,"time":"17:20","seconds":1040,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] want to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-23-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":46,"time":"17:20","seconds":1040,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] want","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-23-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":47,"time":"17:20","seconds":1040,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] consolidate,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-23-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":48,"time":"17:20","seconds":1040,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] separate","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-23-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":49,"time":"17:20","seconds":1040,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-23-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":50,"time":"17:21","seconds":1041,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] posts. Like let's just put it all into one thread. But anyway, like I saw this in 2023 and I was like, yeah, let's do it the first year dude like nothing like crickets like a Thousand people joined and it was mostly like it started off like it started off just me telling people like hey You guys should check out the subreddit and people would join and so for a year that worked get us up to a thousand And then the next half of that year, we got another like 8,000 people. So it started growing. And then like in like December of 2024, we were at like 9,000. I was like, well, this is super cool. I remember I posted this meme, like the over 9,000, like, you know, Dragon Ball Z meme about this. And then, um, And then I went to China on vacation. So I went to go see my wife's family. And I came back and it was like 36,000 people. And I was like, whoa, that was a lot. That was really fast. And then it like did it again in like another month. And I was like, oh, my God. OK, we got to implement some rules here, because at that point you start getting spam. You start getting","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-23-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":51,"time":"18:20","seconds":1100,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Right.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-23-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":52,"time":"18:20","seconds":1100,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] like people being like, here's this perplexity plan. And then here's this NSFW chat GPT thing. And I was like, all right, we got to like we got to figure out a way to deal with this. Um, so yeah, but that was, it was, it was like a really weird thing. And now it's at like almost 300,000 people. Um, maybe like 2. I think it was like 2.5 million views last one.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-23-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":53,"time":"18:39","seconds":1119,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It's so interesting talking about this because from the outside looking in, it feels like this could be this very intentional plan where it's like, yeah, you should build these like digital communities and then started doing a bunch of in-person events and leverage that to create content, and then he still builds on the side, and then he adds investing to really lean in. But knowing you and talking about it, I'm like, no, you really love this stuff. You are fascinated by AI. You love building community. You love talking to people. And you're just kind of pursuing your passion seemingly. And then you kind of go, oh, I could add this to like with the investing piece to your point where you're like, yeah, if I was really thinking about this two years ago, maybe I invest in a couple of earlier companies, but also like, no, I just wanted to like feature these builders. I'm just excited by it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":54,"time":"19:31","seconds":1171,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, yeah, I think if you talk to a lot of people who are in this space, a lot of it is accidental. I saw this TED talk way back when I was like, I don't know, like 16 or something like that, that was just like, oh, here's these startups, here's this stuff that we've done with these startups and blah, blah, blah. And they're like, the most crucial factor is timing. And so for me, I honestly, After, um, after, so I failed at building like two different startups at this point. Right. So one was like this, like social media, like a survey type app that was just like really dumb. And then there was like the natural language processing API, which was much more interesting when I was talking, which, which, what I did, but, um, Once ChaiGBD came out, I knew that was going to fail. And so I was like, all right, you know what? We're going to work in some startups. I'm going to go figure out what these people are doing and learn from these startup founders. But I think the timing was just really good in the sense that as I was doing this, more and more people wanted to be involved and more and more people kept getting into the space. And also, It is really just something that I just enjoy doing. Part of it is that I enjoy doing it. I spend a lot of time doing things that are boring now, like sending emails, reading emails, reading legal","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-24-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":55,"time":"20:52","seconds":1252,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] You","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-24-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":56,"time":"20:52","seconds":1252,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] docs.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-24-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":57,"time":"20:52","seconds":1252,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] don't have an AI agent for that yet? Come on, Rand.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-24-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":58,"time":"20:54","seconds":1254,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] I don't have an AI agent for reading emails. Sending emails, I actually have tried this. So actually I tried this and then my domain got blocked to spam. And so I was like, we'll figure this out later. Like as for now, like I'll just do it manually. And then I actually, you know what? I just don't trust agents for reading legal docs, you know?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-24-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":59,"time":"21:15","seconds":1275,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Oh, yeah. No, I think there are certain things where you need to have","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-24-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":60,"time":"21:18","seconds":1278,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] I'm like,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-24-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":61,"time":"21:18","seconds":1278,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] more","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-24-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":62,"time":"21:18","seconds":1278,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-24-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":63,"time":"21:18","seconds":1278,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] control.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-24-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":64,"time":"21:18","seconds":1278,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] want to read this doc. I want to know what it says. Um,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-24-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":65,"time":"21:21","seconds":1281,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-24-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":66,"time":"21:23","seconds":1283,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] but, uh, what was I saying? Oh yeah. So it was just like, you know, it's just something that I enjoy doing and then kind of compounds and you just figure out like if it's going to work or not. And I talked to someone about this recently and, and, uh, they were like, how do you, like, how do you do it? Like, how do you, how do you do all these events? And like, you know, how are you doing all this community stuff? I was like, dude, I don't, I don't really know. Like sometimes I'm just doing things and then, um, Sometimes I do things because I know there's a lot of people counting on me to do it. The Seattle startup summit is actually like, it's a lot of work. It's way more work than I had hoped that it would be, as a lot of these things are. But I was like, at this point, I have too many people that are counting on me to do this. I can't just like not do it. And so it's like, okay, you have to like, sometimes it's like, you know, you get into doing things and sometimes it's part of it is like, you get to do these because you like it. Sometimes you get to do these, you continue doing it because people are counting on you and you kind of like, are like, okay, like, let's make it work, you know? And then the investment thing was like really more of like a, Hey, like, I think there's this opportunity here. I don't even know if I'm going to be good at investing. Like, dude, like, I don't, I don't know. But I think I've talked to enough VCs that my opinion is really like, it seems like most of these people don't know if they're going to be good at investing either. Right.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-24-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":67,"time":"22:41","seconds":1361,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] It takes a while to figure it out, yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-24-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":68,"time":"22:43","seconds":1363,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"And so it's like, ah, well, it seems like nobody really knows. So give it a try.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":69,"time":"22:48","seconds":1368,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I like it. I will recommend a couple of helpful assistance that I've enjoyed as far as email here. Quora.computer has a really solid summarization to help you kind of just get through your inbox faster. I enjoyed that quite a bit, though I admit I'm not currently using it on my work email and probably ought to set it back up again. And then I'll shout out a startup that I invested in from YC last year, Iris, which is doing summarization of emails and calendar work and it's been fairly helpful. Though I think it's a little better on iPhone than Android for the moment.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-25-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":70,"time":"23:28","seconds":1408,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] This is what they call a value-add investor.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-25-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":71,"time":"23:31","seconds":1411,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I do what I can. Yeah, I have to. I have to be a somewhat value add.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":72,"time":"24:18","seconds":1458,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I think investments you want to shout out here now that we're all the time.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":73,"time":"24:22","seconds":1462,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] Um, no, all of my, all of my current investments are currently under contract. So I can't, I basically,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-27-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":74,"time":"24:27","seconds":1467,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Okay. Okay.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-27-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":75,"time":"24:28","seconds":1468,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] I basically was like, I was like, here are 10 companies I want to invest in. Now I need to raise money now. And at the same time about that, I need to raise the money to be able to invest in these companies. I need to get them to send me these contracts so I can sign these contracts and get them.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-27-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":76,"time":"24:41","seconds":1481,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-27-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":77,"time":"24:41","seconds":1481,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] Ready. And then I have to wait until they're ready to announce before I can even say, Oh, I invest in this company. Which honestly, these are things that you don't think about as an investor. You think like, Oh, I just wire this money into this company and suddenly I own part of this. And it's like, no, that's not how it works at all. There's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-27-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":78,"time":"24:56","seconds":1496,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-27-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":79,"time":"24:56","seconds":1496,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"actually a lot of docs. And I was like, dude, I, I signed up to be, I signed up to read docs. That's what I signed up for.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":80,"time":"25:04","seconds":1504,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"You're like, I want to do the cool part of this. I wanted to like talk to companies be like, yeah, your stuff is cool. Let me help you get, let me give you some money. And now you're like, wait, I just read legal documents all day.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":81,"time":"25:13","seconds":1513,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"Yes, it's been a lot of time really reading legal docs. It's like, uh, um, I do want to shout out something here. Uh, the r slash AI agents does have a weekly project thread, which gets, you know, at first it was getting like one or two projects a week. Now it gets a lot of projects. I get notifications about this at least like two or three a day that they're, you know, people are posting, I think usually ends up with more than 10 projects.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":82,"time":"25:38","seconds":1538,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I saw that Sterling Chin posted Marvin on there recently and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":83,"time":"25:44","seconds":1544,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] Yes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-31-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":84,"time":"25:44","seconds":1544,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] got quite a few","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-31-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":85,"time":"25:45","seconds":1545,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] I talked","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-31-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":86,"time":"25:45","seconds":1545,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] likes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-31-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":87,"time":"25:45","seconds":1545,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] to him about that, dude. I talked to him about that last Friday and I was like, dude, are you going to turn this into a startup? And he was like, he was like, I got to check the IP. And I was like, all right, let me know. Cause like, I'm, I'm interested.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-31-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":88,"time":"25:57","seconds":1557,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] It","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-31-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":89,"time":"25:57","seconds":1557,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] It's,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-31-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":90,"time":"25:57","seconds":1557,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] seems interesting.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-31-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":91,"time":"25:58","seconds":1558,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"it's, it's, it's got good traction. Like it's, it seems like it's pretty new. It's like something that he's kind of like, and this is the right way to do a startup, right? It's like you build something that you kind of like, you get your friends on it and they like it. You know, you get your coworkers on it, they like it. And then now it's like this open source thing that has, you know, a few hundred stars and it's actually getting popular. And I was like, this is how you build an open source startup. So hopefully it does turn into something like that. That would be really","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":92,"time":"26:24","seconds":1584,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I actually want to go back to something you said earlier about basically being a failed founder. Because I'll say as someone who has failed once at founding, I've only given it a try once to be clear, so 0 for 1.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":93,"time":"26:37","seconds":1597,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"cool.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":94,"time":"26:37","seconds":1597,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So let's just be very clear, no successes. It was a huge learning opportunity for me. Like I learned so much about like what I'm good at, what I'm bad at, where my gaps are, what what it kind of takes to go next. And similar to you, I think I then went off and was like, OK, let me go work for some startups and maybe I'll try this again down the line. Uh, you have done that and now you've kind of come out the other end of that and have started to build an events company. You've started to build an investment business. What are the things you learned as like an early founder that you have now adjusted in your, your day to day today, particularly as we're starting to automate so much with AI, I'm kind of curious about that workflow and that change for you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":95,"time":"27:22","seconds":1642,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"Yeah. So I think when I founded my first company, I was very, very good at building software. So like I, because I run a lot of hackathons, I get a lot of questions about people who are like, how do you become a software engineer? Especially like, you know, like people who are earlier stage or who have, you know, seniors in college or like, you know, masters or whatever. And I'm like, I can't help you because I had the weirdest career, like, I started as a software engineer when I was 16 because I won some international competitions. And then I was really good at doing this. I was good at building software. I went to school. I was good at doing research. And I was just a very vertically skilled person. And then when I went to start my first company, the first thing I learned was nobody cares how good your software is if they don't know what your software is.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":96,"time":"28:13","seconds":1693,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Mm.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-36-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":97,"time":"28:14","seconds":1694,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] And that was number one. And I was like, OK. I guess we'll go learn how to do marketing. And so I learned how to do social media marketing. And what that really meant was that I learned that you should post on social media. And that was about the extent of what I learned from that. Number two was like, you have to go do sales at some point. You have some money, you have to go do sales at some point. I actually talked to quite a few VCs. So I think one of the nice, one of the interesting and like success, one of the interesting points and successes that came out of failing my first startup was that I learned how to cold email, maybe not like how to cold email well, but I learned how to do it, which was like, you","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-36-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":98,"time":"28:53","seconds":1733,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Psychologically,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-36-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":99,"time":"28:53","seconds":1733,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] don't,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-36-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":100,"time":"28:54","seconds":1734,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"it's hard.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":101,"time":"28:55","seconds":1735,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"it is, it's hard to do. It's even harder to send warm emails sometimes to people you know. And so it's just like, it's just like, okay, like you have to, you just have to send this email to this person. And I ended up getting to meet some VCs here in the Seattle area. And I learned from them basically, like about what a startup is versus like what like a business is. And in the sense that they were like, look, no one's going to invest in you unless they think you're going to make a hundred million dollars a year. And I think with the AI automation thing, that number is going to go up. People are going to expect more.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":102,"time":"29:29","seconds":1769,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I'm already seeing it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":103,"time":"29:30","seconds":1770,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"Until the bubble pops. I think I, you know, the, once, once valuations go down again, people will be like, Oh, you know, actually these are like businesses in this, at the end of the day, they are businesses and they do have this kind of scale with the available, you know, real like GDP thing. So","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":104,"time":"29:49","seconds":1789,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So, so to your point here, and I'm going to sidetrack us briefly, but.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":105,"time":"29:52","seconds":1792,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":106,"time":"29:52","seconds":1792,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"You know, I think most people listening here know that if you're investing at like an early stage, you are looking for a hundred X outcomes. Like even if a business starts to return you two X on your money, that doesn't really help you that much in the grand scale scheme of the fund, because 90% or more of your businesses are going to fail that you invest in. And so the startup investor, like you need those outsized outcomes. You're really relying on them. It's why it can feel so odd for folks who are used to like bootstrapping a business, but you're like, I'm making money. Like, why would you not invest in me? And a VC is going to say, well, I don't see the upside. And so it's just, it's just not worth my capital. I need that higher opportunity. Um. But to your point, we've seen a major change in valuations lately. So I make an easy example here is like a Bay Area startup that was joining YC a few years back might've come out of it valued at about 10 million for its pre-seed round. And now it's 20 million is typical. So, and there, there are higher valuations than that too. Uh, obviously there's some variants, but like there's been a, it's doubled, uh, if not more sometimes. So we've seen this crazy valuation rise, which means, okay, if I want a hundred X, I don't just need a billion dollar outcome. I need a $2 billion outcome. And that starts to get really challenging as you point out, because yeah, there are some AI native companies that can pull a Cursor and have these like insane outcomes, but most companies are not Cursor.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":107,"time":"31:11","seconds":1871,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"Right. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":108,"time":"31:15","seconds":1875,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah. Yeah. I don't know what's going to happen with this because there's this, I mean, like, you know, just on the investment side, like you talk to a lot of VCs and people are like, why are all of these pre-seed companies have such crazy valuations? And even like for like my own like fund, like there are some like there are some companies that I want to invest in that I'm just going to invest in because I know the founders and I like want to get it on the round. And it's like it's a series A round there at one hundred and fifty million, two hundred million dollar valuation. It's like, OK, like So at that point, I'm like, does this thing, is this thing going to 10x? Is this thing going to 20x? That's all I think about. But also like, I'm not a classical VC. I'm only, I have a tiny fund. I can be a little flexible on like what I do because you know, it's not like I'm managing $750 million that I have to turn into like, you know, like $3 billion or whatever.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-44-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":109,"time":"32:05","seconds":1925,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Give","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-44-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":110,"time":"32:05","seconds":1925,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-44-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":111,"time":"32:05","seconds":1925,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] it 10 years. I'm curious to see your fun sides 10 years here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-44-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":112,"time":"32:07","seconds":1927,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] We'll see, we'll see what it looks like in 10 years. Like, you know, it's a year one fun one. You just kind of like, you're like, okay, let's, let's test the waters. Let's get into these companies, you know, get some, get some traction and things like that. But this helped me like this, you know, when I first started out talking to these VCs helped me kind of see what VCs see and then see from what startups see. And that is kind of like, that's part of like the reason why, like I shut down the first company was like, because a, I was just burning money. I didn't know what I was doing. I couldn't get any sales and I couldn't raise money. So then I was like, okay, well, what if we do something that is actually venture scalable? And that's how I got into this NLP API. Cause I was like, well, I have a lot of credibility in this space and I know how to build APIs and I know this makes money. And actually, like you were saying earlier, it's like as an entrepreneur, you kind of think like, oh, this is making money. Like why won't people invest? That was actually a very good reason is because ChatGPT was out. So it was a really good idea that nobody invested in that because if they had invested in it, it was just lost money. Anyway, like doing this kind of stuff, like really taught me how to do like the marketing, the sales, and then like doing events really teaches you how to do operations.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-44-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":113,"time":"33:13","seconds":1993,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"you","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":114,"time":"33:15","seconds":1995,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"And then at some point, a lot of it was just about working with people. It's like knowing the right people, And part of it is about liking people and being able to talk to people. I was always kind of an extroverted person. As a software engineer, I was very extroverted for software engineers. And so for me, that part has been not too hard. It's been easier. But even so, it's still kind of hard, because I think building a business, being an entrepreneur, and I'll kind of talk about this from this perspective of founders versus, let's say, S&B entrepreneurs, which is kind of where I'm at right now. Um, I think like in this space, I have a lot more like flexibility. I have, it's a much more broader role in the sense that like, you know, I'm going to be doing, uh, operations, manage, uh, management, marketing, sales, building the deck tech behind the scenes. I use, uh, I use Gemini to write all my code. Um, I used to use Claude,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":115,"time":"34:12","seconds":2052,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Okay,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-46-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":116,"time":"34:12","seconds":2052,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] um,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-46-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":117,"time":"34:13","seconds":2053,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"interesting, yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":118,"time":"34:14","seconds":2054,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"and I switched to Gemini and I'd been on Gemini for a while. So I use Gemini, um, and I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":119,"time":"34:19","seconds":2059,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Did","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-48-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":120,"time":"34:19","seconds":2059,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] use","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-48-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":121,"time":"34:19","seconds":2059,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Gemini 3 get you to switch or what was the switch for","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-48-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":122,"time":"34:21","seconds":2061,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] No,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-48-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":123,"time":"34:21","seconds":2061,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] you?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-48-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":124,"time":"34:21","seconds":2061,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] 2.5.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-48-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":125,"time":"34:22","seconds":2062,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Oh, interesting, okay, alright.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":126,"time":"34:24","seconds":2064,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"Yeah. Oh, 2.5 pro is actually quite good.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":127,"time":"34:26","seconds":2066,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":128,"time":"34:27","seconds":2067,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] Um, I found that, uh, actually even 2.5 flashes is quite good for writing front end code because you know, like, to be honest, it's not a lot of, I mean, okay, to be honest, the websites I'm building don't require a lot of complexity. So it's like 2.5 flash is even good enough, but I usually","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-51-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":129,"time":"34:41","seconds":2081,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-51-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":130,"time":"34:42","seconds":2082,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] use.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-51-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":131,"time":"34:42","seconds":2082,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] it's much cheaper than Anthropic.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-51-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":132,"time":"34:44","seconds":2084,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"Yeah, it's much cheaper. Yeah. But I usually use Pro. And then, you know, I'm just doing all of these different things. And then I think as a startup founder, It's, I have a lot of flexibility in how I scale. Like I don't have to hire anyone. I don't have the money to do it anyway. But even if I did, it's like, you know, like I don't have to do it. I don't have to scale. I'm not under pressure to be like, I need a $10 million business tomorrow. You know, but as a startup founder, when you go as a startup founder and you raise money to do, to do a startup. You raise that money with the intention of, OK, I'm going to raise this money. I'm going to hire two engineers. I'm going to hire a marketer. And next year we're going to go and we're going to we're going to like, you know, be a 10 million AR business in 24 months, you know, something like that. And so as a startup founder, you have to have like the flexibility to and the ability to kind of like let go eventually as you scale. And I think like that is actually a different skill set. And it's a very, very challenging skill set to do well, because, and I'm sure you've seen it, right?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":133,"time":"35:51","seconds":2151,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"Founders are really good at getting things off the ground. But the moment you have like 200 people in your, up until like 5,200 people, like your founders are pretty much always going to be your best bet on any leaders for your organization. Beyond that, that's where you see like, is the founder able to evolve and keep up with the business? And so investing early stage is always interesting because you're kind of, you're betting on the founder. And you're also betting on the idea that the founder will know when it's time to be like, okay, I have to evolve. I have to like step this up. Um, so yeah, there's just like, uh, these two are different things that require a lot of different skills. And, um,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":134,"time":"36:33","seconds":2193,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"yeah, I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":135,"time":"36:34","seconds":2194,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] No,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-54-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":136,"time":"36:34","seconds":2194,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] don't","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-54-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":137,"time":"36:34","seconds":2194,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I totally","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-54-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":138,"time":"36:35","seconds":2195,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] have","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-54-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":139,"time":"36:35","seconds":2195,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] agree","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-54-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":140,"time":"36:35","seconds":2195,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] any.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-54-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":141,"time":"36:35","seconds":2195,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"with that. I've talked to the co-founders of DevRev about this, Dheeraj Pandey and Manoj Agarwal. And Manoj was on the podcast last year and Dheeraj I interviewed on Dev Interrupted a couple years back. And they both talked about this where it's like, Yeah, as you get off the ground, like you can control a lot. But what's what they pitched is basically their biggest predictor of success was getting other team members to buy in at a founder like level and scaling leadership. Because as you get to that larger org size, you just can't do it all yourself. You have to have enabled a crew of people around you with founder like qualities, with leadership qualities who can help grow the org. And even with the scaling of AI tools and that enabling certain people to 10x their output, whether that's creating more 10x engineers, whether that's more marketing collateral, whatever it is, you still need to scale that team. It's really hard to get to venture scale without broadening your team.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":142,"time":"37:37","seconds":2257,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, I always think like, you know, there's a lot of talk around the one person unicorn right","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-55-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":143,"time":"37:46","seconds":2266,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] We're not there","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-55-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":144,"time":"37:46","seconds":2266,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] now.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-55-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":145,"time":"37:46","seconds":2266,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"yet, in my opinion.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":146,"time":"37:48","seconds":2268,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"It might happen, but if you are that one person unicorn, like whoever that is gonna be doing that, like that person has to have some incredibly good and an incredibly wide skill set. And it's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":147,"time":"38:00","seconds":2280,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-57-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":148,"time":"38:00","seconds":2280,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] just,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-57-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":149,"time":"38:00","seconds":2280,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] It's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-57-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":150,"time":"38:01","seconds":2281,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] I think maybe we'll see like a 10 person unicorn, maybe like a 20 person unicorn, something like that. But one is like, I'm like, I don't know about that one dude.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-57-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":151,"time":"38:11","seconds":2291,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] hard to do. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-57-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":152,"time":"38:12","seconds":2292,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And to be honest, I think also like at the end of the day, AI is an enablement tool. And I'm not sure I want AI to be super autonomous, like truly, truly autonomous, because it's a little bit scary. But maybe it will happen, maybe it won't. I don't know. When I was younger, I always thought the singularity would be an interesting thing. We all plug our minds into a core and upload ourselves onto the web or something like that. But as I've gotten older, I've been more of the opinion that actually, Uh, a lot of these things just require people and a lot of the problems, a lot of the problems and scaling businesses. And maybe this is a effect of my like community work, but like a lot of these problems is just like, do you have the right people in place? Um, and I, I'm not going to name any names, but I see companies that I, I talked to, I talked to the founders and they're like incredible. And then I see who they hire and I see what they're doing. And I'm like, I don't know if that was the right pick.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-57-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":153,"time":"39:18","seconds":2358,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Not every founder is great at hiring and you need to be if you're going to scale past a certain point.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":154,"time":"39:24","seconds":2364,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. At the end of the day, I still think a lot of it is, I mean, you know, even with the acceleration of AI, the acceleration abilities of AI, I think a lot of it is like a people thing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":155,"time":"39:35","seconds":2375,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. And speaking of people, if you want to get the skills to be an incredible founder or you want to meet the next company that you should join, maybe check out Eugene's Seattle Startup Summit coming up here in a couple of months.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":156,"time":"39:48","seconds":2388,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] Yes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-60-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":157,"time":"39:48","seconds":2388,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] And I'll let him pitch that himself.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-60-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":158,"time":"39:50","seconds":2390,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"Yes, yes, yes. If you're a tech leader and you are interested in keeping up with innovative technology, or if you're a startup founder and you're interested in basically talking to tech leaders who are going to be your buyers, you should come to Seattle Startup Summit. This is like last year, we had 467 unique companies there. We had 900 people there. This year, I'm expecting that number to basically like, you know, almost double. And, you know, we've we've got basically all the big companies and big investors here in the Pacific Northwest. You know, Madrona, Anthos, Ascend, Fuse, like all of the big VCs you can kind of think of up here, which is not a lot. But, you know, like they're there, they're there here. And we have some people coming from the Bay as well and some people from New York and some billion dollar funds that are that are coming in. They're looking for companies to invest in. They're looking for companies to invest in. And also the tech, the tech people here, like there, there's a ton of enterprises. And I think, so I think Seattle actually has one interesting advantage over the Bay, which is that there are actually a bunch of these like huge enterprises out here. And you can just like, like these people are around, like they live in the area. You can kind of like, they'll, they'll come to the events. You can get to know them. Like, you know, like I've met multiple people who are like directors of engineering at like companies like, Intel, or Coupang, or Expedia, or Booking.com, or whatever. And these are the companies that are more likely to buy your product than Google or AWS. Not that Google or AWS won't buy your company or your product, but like these people are much more","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":159,"time":"41:26","seconds":2486,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] They","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-61-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":160,"time":"41:26","seconds":2486,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] likely","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-61-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":161,"time":"41:26","seconds":2486,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] might","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-61-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":162,"time":"41:26","seconds":2486,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] to.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-61-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":163,"time":"41:26","seconds":2486,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] be more likely to buy your company. That's your point.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-61-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":164,"time":"41:28","seconds":2488,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] They","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-61-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":165,"time":"41:28","seconds":2488,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-61-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":166,"time":"41:28","seconds":2488,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"are much more likely to buy your company. This is very fair. Google, Meta, they're much more likely to just be like, I want to buy your company. So yeah, I think that's one unique advantage for Seattle is the B2B enterprise space, which is why all the VCs up here fund the B2B enterprise companies.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":167,"time":"41:45","seconds":2505,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-62-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":168,"time":"41:45","seconds":2505,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] But yeah,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-62-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":169,"time":"41:46","seconds":2506,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] you","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-62-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":170,"time":"41:46","seconds":2506,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] that's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-62-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":171,"time":"41:46","seconds":2506,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] can","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-62-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":172,"time":"41:46","seconds":2506,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] what I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-62-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":173,"time":"41:46","seconds":2506,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] find","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-62-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":174,"time":"41:46","seconds":2506,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"[OVERLAP] did.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-62-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":175,"time":"41:46","seconds":2506,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"all the info on that at seattlestartupsummit.com, which we'll of course link in the show notes here as well. Youshin, it's been so much fun catching up with you. I'd love to kind of close with a question for you about what the topics or people are that you think we should be exploring on the show. Like if you were to write the content plan or make suggestions on it for us, What should we be covering? Who should we be talking to?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":176,"time":"42:17","seconds":2537,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"Let's see, Chain of Thought is the title of your show. It seems you talk to a lot of people who are in tech leadership positions and founders and things like that. I think, you know, that's probably the most interesting audience if you're trying to kind of like get into covering more of like the AI file leadership stuff. And I think maybe something that would be interesting to do, if not, I mean, and probably also quite difficult, is getting interviews with exited founders. It may not be too hard to get interviews with people who are like recently exited. But, you know, like people who exited not just in the sense of like, oh, my company IPO'd, but also exited and like, oh, my company got acquired. So like, I think these people have a unique view on the current landscape. And so I think they would be interested to have on.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":177,"time":"43:13","seconds":2593,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"That's a great idea. Uh, Eugene, thank you so much. Really appreciate you taking the time to chat today. It's been a ton of fun as always. And, uh, can't wait for sale startup summit.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":178,"time":"43:23","seconds":2603,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"Yeah, thanks Conor, I'll see you there.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":179,"time":"43:25","seconds":2605,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And if you are listening and you enjoyed this conversation, remember to leave a rating or review on your podcasting app of choice. If you're on Apple podcast, we particularly appreciate a short little review. Uh, or if you didn't like it, you can reach out to me personally on LinkedIn or elsewhere and tell me what you want to see, uh, because we are responsive to our fans. Uh, so thank you so much for listening, everyone. We appreciate you and we'll see you next week.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund","episode":51,"guid":"a8c1fd5e-bb3d-4b6e-8721-3028e0b27c4b","episodeTitle":"I Started r/AI_Agents and Now I'm Launching a VC Fund | Yujian Tang","publishedAt":"2026-03-10","segmentIndex":180,"time":"43:51","seconds":2631,"speaker":"Yujian Tang","text":"Alright, thanks Howard.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/51-i-started-r-ai-agents-and-now-im-launching-a-vc-fund/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Folks, this episode format is going to be slightly different. If you have feedback, maybe you didn't finish the episode because it wasn't landing with you. Maybe you loved it. We would really, really appreciate hearing from you, whether that's on Substack, LinkedIn, X slash Twitter, Spotify comments, whatever the best way to reach us. There's so many different ways you use your preferred method. We'd love to hear from you so we can keep improving the show and its format.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:28","seconds":28,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Welcome back to Chain of Thought, everyone. I am your host, Conor Bronsdon, head of technical ecosystem at Modular. And a quick thank you to our presenting sponsors, Galileo, for helping to make this episode happen. Today, I am joined by Sterling Chin. Sterling is taking us through his creation Marvin, a personal AI assistant that he has built. If you follow him on LinkedIn, where he is quite effusive and interesting, he has shared a lot of great insights already about it. And Sterling's background as an applied AI engineer and senior developer advocate at Postman is really coming to the fore with the directions that he's taken Marvin. And of course, if we're going to talk Marvin, we've got to talk Moltbot or OpenClaw, whatever they're calling it these days. Maybe it'll have changed by the time this episode comes out. Sterling, so great to see you. Super stoked to see Marvin and have you take a first spin.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":2,"time":"1:19","seconds":79,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, dude, Conor, always good to see you. Thank you so much for having me and this is going to be a lot of fun. I'm really","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-1-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:24","seconds":84,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Oh,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-1-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":4,"time":"1:24","seconds":84,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] excited to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-1-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":5,"time":"1:25","seconds":85,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] app.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-1-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":6,"time":"1:25","seconds":85,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] show off Marvin.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-1-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":7,"time":"1:25","seconds":85,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Come on. Of course, man. Of course. I want to do this. Yeah. I have a metaphysical question for you before we dive into the nitty gritty here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-1-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":8,"time":"1:32","seconds":92,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] Okay.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-1-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":9,"time":"1:32","seconds":92,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] So I said, I'm excited to see Marvin. Should I be saying I'm excited to meet Marvin? Do you think?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-1-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":10,"time":"1:40","seconds":100,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"Yes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":11,"time":"1:41","seconds":101,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Oh, okay.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":12,"time":"1:42","seconds":102,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] I'll walk you through. I'll show you my personal Marvin. I use him for work, so there's not a lot of things I can show you. I'll give you the soul of him, and we'll have an interaction with him. I'll show you the template that I built that has been open sourced and I'll show you and actually, honestly, I'm happy to talk you through like, hey, what is my process? Because I actually","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-3-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":13,"time":"2:08","seconds":128,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-3-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":14,"time":"2:08","seconds":128,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] just onboarded two more people at Postman onto Marvin. who are non-technical. So these are people who are knowledge workers, non-technical, who are starting to, who have said, hey, look, we know so-and-so is using him. We love, like, they love him. Can you help me on board? And so I'm going through the technical rigor of like, all right, let's get, let's get you using the terminal and Claude Code and figure all that stuff. So yeah, I'm happy to, like, there's so many tangents, so many conversations","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-3-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":15,"time":"2:36","seconds":156,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Oh,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-3-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":16,"time":"2:36","seconds":156,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] to have","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-3-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":17,"time":"2:36","seconds":156,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] okay.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-3-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":18,"time":"2:36","seconds":156,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] today.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-3-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":19,"time":"2:37","seconds":157,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] My mind is just expanding here. This is great. So, and I love that we're doing this because we have started this series on Chain of Thought where we dive into how are AI assistants and agents being rolled out across various organizations? How are people using them in their day-to-day lives? And obviously, you know, I think Multbot has taken the majority of the attention in the last few weeks as it went mega viral. But","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-3-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":20,"time":"3:01","seconds":181,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] Yep.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-3-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":21,"time":"3:01","seconds":181,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] like we talked to Andrew Jones at Block about how they're using Goose across technical and non-technical roles throughout Block's organization. Obviously, many of us are spinning up our own MCP servers or building Claude skills to enable ourselves, whether it's in Claude Code or elsewhere. But what drove you to decide to build, hey, your own comprehensive personal system, Marvin?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-3-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":22,"time":"3:26","seconds":206,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah. Oh, so there's a little bit of a backstory here. So all of last year, right, we got Claude Code. We're using, we were starting to see what he was capable of. And I imagined using, and with MCP, I imagined using Claude Code as kind of a personal assistant. I've had this idea for a long time. Like I wrote the, my original, my original brainstorm on him was I think June of last year. Um, but what I realized is like, I started, so I started off by just building a lot of my own integrations. So it was, Hey, I need, like, these were all just my own personal little pieces of software, right? My own, my own SAS products that were just buried","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-3-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":23,"time":"4:10","seconds":250,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Hey, I need","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-3-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":24,"time":"4:10","seconds":250,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] or like,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-3-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":25,"time":"4:10","seconds":250,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] these metrics every month. Do it for","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-3-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":26,"time":"4:12","seconds":252,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah. And, and I had all these different pieces of software all lying around on my machine. Right. They were like, Oh, well I need, I have a personal CRM. Like I don't want, I don't need, I don't need a Salesforce. I don't need even an audio.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-3-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":27,"time":"4:26","seconds":266,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] me.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-3-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":28,"time":"4:27","seconds":267,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] I just want a personal CRM. So I'm like, Hey, I need to talk to Conor. It automatically pulls up like, where's Conor? What's he doing? And so I started building all these small integrations, and these are all individual pieces of like software that just existed. Then 4.6 came out. I'm sorry, four or five came out. Sorry. I should say Opus four or five came out in November and I found myself at Christmas at the holidays. Like I'm off for the last two weeks of the year and I'm just sitting on my, sitting on my butt doing nothing. Like for the first time, like, like, okay, now I can actually think about these things. And it's ironic that. Like open claw or like it was Claude Claude bought and mult bought now open claw, like,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-3-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":29,"time":"5:14","seconds":314,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I'm sincerely losing track.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-3-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":30,"time":"5:15","seconds":315,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"I know it's open cloth for now until open AI like Susan or, or whatever, but like I, so I found myself just sitting at my desk or sitting, sitting at the house with the kids running around. And I, and I grabbed my laptop and I thought I'm going to brainstorm. Like I know how good four or five really is. I think there's something more that I could do with this and over the What really changed for me was the understanding that AI, LLMs, they use, they love structured content, structured data. So I've been a huge proponent of, I mean, if you see me on LinkedIn, I might, I have had posts where I might learn Markdown. Markdown is like Markdown was the key unlock for me that I went, Oh, something is here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":31,"time":"6:05","seconds":365,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I think I write more in Markdown today than anything else just because I'm trying to enable agents to work on my behalf or I'm trying to structure information to go into an LLM for easy retrieval.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":32,"time":"6:16","seconds":376,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"Yeah. I mean, I've, I've, I mean, if you've used Obsidian, yeah. And these, these are all things like I've been storing, you know, ideas in Markdown files on my machine. And so then it all kind of came together. I realized that if I could, like with 4.5 being as powerful as it was, knowing how good Markdown was and how token efficient Markdown is, and I thought, I bet you, I can build a, I bet you, I can build something here. And so out over the course of like three or four hours, I'm just sitting up here in my office and I put together like the first iteration of what Marvin was. And it was, and it was never meant to share externally. This was just. I don't know, no one else is doing this. I haven't seen it. I'm going to build it for myself. So I'm built it very purposeful for myself. Um, and he had, I said, Hey, I want you to have an attitude like you're Marvin. So Marvin, I'm a hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy fan. So that's where Marvin comes in. Uh, he's a sardonic, sarcastic, pessimistic, all knowing robot. And it kind of worked. Um, so I built Marvin and said, OK, I've got all these other pieces of software that I've built. Like, let's analyze each one of them one by one. And can we bring this in and can I do something with it? So I built this was before agent teams came out. This was before plugins and all that. So. I built a skills,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":33,"time":"7:44","seconds":464,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] it was not proprietary, but I built a directory on my machine or directory in Marvin called skills. And that skills like, if I do this, this is the procedure, this is the workflow that we typically do. Like I've heard from mentors in the past, if you do anything twice, automate it. If you do something twice, automate it. So I thought, okay, let's start kind of cataloging a lot of my workflows. And I started doing this in Markdown with Claude Code, like just back and forth, like brainstorming with me. And again, before I knew it, by the end of the holiday break, I came in to Jan, was it 5th when we were all coming back to the office? and I put Marvin to the test in a real-world environment. I've got Google Projects. I didn't even use MCP. These were all hard-coded because I'd already built a lot of these integrations on my own with the APIs that existed. So it was just, let's just build it and let's see what happened. After the first week, I went back and looked at what I accomplished. So let me, let me give you actually, um, I'm going to, well, Conor, I'm going to let you drive a little bit. When do you want me to show off Marvin? Like, like the,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-6-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":34,"time":"9:05","seconds":545,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Let's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-6-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":35,"time":"9:05","seconds":545,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] like","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-6-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":36,"time":"9:05","seconds":545,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] kick","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-6-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":37,"time":"9:05","seconds":545,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] how","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-6-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":38,"time":"9:05","seconds":545,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] it off right","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-6-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":39,"time":"9:06","seconds":546,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] he","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-6-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":40,"time":"9:06","seconds":546,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] now, man.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-6-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":41,"time":"9:06","seconds":546,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] sits. Okay.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-6-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":42,"time":"9:07","seconds":547,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] You could do it the whole time and I'd be stoked.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-6-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":43,"time":"9:08","seconds":548,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] Okay, so the idea of Marvin is that you bookend your day, okay? So I'm gonna, I'll share my screen. I bookend my day, I start my day with Marvin and I say, hey, there's a slash command called slash start. Again, this is before plugins, this is before all the stuff that, it's like, I know I could make custom slash commands. So I made a custom slash command that says slash start, that would kick off a series of, a series of bash commands that would go get my work email, it would go get my calendar, it would go get, like I have a state tree, a state file that keeps where I'm currently at at any given time. and then throughout the day I do my work and then at the end of the day I type slash end. I have a slash end command inside of Marvin.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-6-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":44,"time":"9:59","seconds":599,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] So Marvin's just running the whole time through air work","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-6-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":45,"time":"10:01","seconds":601,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] Marvin's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-6-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":46,"time":"10:01","seconds":601,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] day.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-6-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":47,"time":"10:01","seconds":601,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"running all day. Like he, I mean, at this point he now runs. 90 plus percent of my day. Like I'm in Marvin. I don't like there, there are times where I, I don't even respond in Slack. I say, Hey, Bonnie or say, you know, Bonnie just sent me a Slack message. Can you respond? And he will spin up like playwright. He'll go in, send my,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":48,"time":"10:21","seconds":621,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Hmm.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":49,"time":"10:22","seconds":622,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"send Bonnie a response in my, on my behalf. And I haven't done anything. I'm like sitting here, like I'm working. So let me show you Marvin. I keep talking about this. So the Marvin, you know what? I'm going to share my entire screen because I didn't go back and forth.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":50,"time":"10:40","seconds":640,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And as you're doing this,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":51,"time":"10:42","seconds":642,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-10-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":52,"time":"10:42","seconds":642,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I think an interesting point here is that it's not just you using Marvin in your workplace anymore either. It's spread","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-10-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":53,"time":"10:47","seconds":647,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] No,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-10-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":54,"time":"10:48","seconds":648,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-10-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":55,"time":"10:48","seconds":648,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] it","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-10-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":56,"time":"10:48","seconds":648,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] your coworkers.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-10-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":57,"time":"10:49","seconds":649,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"has spread to my coworkers. I've, um, I have a, we have a Marvin. So it started off with one of my colleagues using him. So, uh, yeah. Um, one of my colleagues was starting to use him. Uh, she's like, Hey, I really like what you're doing. I was like kind of bragging about it. And at the end of the first week, by the way, this is where it comes. This is where I realized I had something is at the end of the first week, I looked at my report and I had accomplished 190 line items. Like, like if you look on the screen now, you can see the screen, right?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":58,"time":"11:24","seconds":684,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":59,"time":"11:24","seconds":684,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] Okay, so I have on the right side here, I have my reports. And these reports right here on the right are my weekend reports. And it takes every session that I've done. So I track days are a session, and it takes the last five sessions, smartly, it looks at it and then says, okay, now it's going to compress that into one larger end of week report. And when I looked at my first week, my first week report, I had accomplished 190 something line items. And I went, I just finished in one week, what really normally takes me a month.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-12-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":60,"time":"12:05","seconds":725,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-12-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":61,"time":"12:06","seconds":726,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] And that's when it kind of hit me. So with Marvin, I'm in the terminal here. I have on the right side here. This is one of my favorite things to do is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-12-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":62,"time":"12:17","seconds":737,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"so an important point here is that you're leveraging Claude Code to then run Marvin.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":63,"time":"12:22","seconds":742,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, so Claude Code is the harness underneath the hood. Like, it's the engine that runs Marvin. Marvin is not, and that's the thing with a lot of these, like OpenClaw with everything, a lot of it is still under the hood. It's just one of the, it's Codex, it's Gemini CLI, it's Claude Code. That's just the engine that's running everything, but what you build around it is what matters. So yeah, so to answer your question earlier, I've got over a dozen of my colleagues were using them, including","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-13-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":64,"time":"12:58","seconds":778,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Oh.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-13-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":65,"time":"12:59","seconds":779,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"two heads of departments who said, oh, we love it. So much so that I heard from someone that someone on the security team was like, hey, are we worried about this? And they said, no, we've already approved Claude Code. This is not doing anything above and beyond. This is not an open claw. This is not like taking over your Mac. This is just Marvin in a very clearly defined space.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":66,"time":"13:26","seconds":806,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] which I think is really smart because it enables it to actually be leveraged from a workplace much more easily than like","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-14-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":67,"time":"13:32","seconds":812,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] Yes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-14-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":68,"time":"13:33","seconds":813,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I will not get to have open claw on my Mac anytime soon.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-14-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":69,"time":"13:37","seconds":817,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"Never. Like, you'll never have it. And that's the reality of all of this. But with Marvin, the way I've built it is when you onboard with Marvin, you do the clone. I mean, you get cloned the repo down, but then on the onboarding, he actually makes a copy of himself on your machine, wherever you want him to be. Now that is then the location where all work is done after that. So there is a complete separation between the template Marvin that is right, like, this is the template Marvin.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":70,"time":"14:13","seconds":853,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Congrats","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-15-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":71,"time":"14:13","seconds":853,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] When","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-15-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":72,"time":"14:14","seconds":854,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] on almost","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-15-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":73,"time":"14:14","seconds":854,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] when","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-15-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":74,"time":"14:14","seconds":854,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] 900 stars, by the way, excited to see where","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-15-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":75,"time":"14:16","seconds":856,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-15-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":76,"time":"14:16","seconds":856,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"it","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":77,"time":"14:16","seconds":856,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] know,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-16-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":78,"time":"14:16","seconds":856,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] is when this comes out.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-16-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":79,"time":"14:17","seconds":857,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"This is three weeks. After the first week, after the first 24 hours of posting on Reddit about him, I had like 150. I'm like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. This is gonna be great. And it's just continually grown and more and more people are","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":80,"time":"14:31","seconds":871,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-17-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":81,"time":"14:31","seconds":871,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] using","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-17-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":82,"time":"14:31","seconds":871,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Marvin","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-17-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":83,"time":"14:31","seconds":871,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] him, so.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-17-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":84,"time":"14:31","seconds":871,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] the one posting on Reddit or are you the one posting on Reddit?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-17-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":85,"time":"14:34","seconds":874,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"I posted on Reddit, Marvin helped.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":86,"time":"14:37","seconds":877,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Okay.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":87,"time":"14:38","seconds":878,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"So, oh, actually, this is where, Conor, you and I are like, I'm just jumping around, because there's so many cool things. I know. There's so many cool things to talk about with him. So Marvin is, again, it's primarily he runs on Claude Code. He can run on Codex and he can run on Gemini CLI if you want. But I use him. I use Cloud Max for work. He is primarily in Markdown and he has a lot of skills. So actually, one of the things that I do is I use Mac Whisperer or Mac Whisperer. Let me show you. This is the product. You can find it. I'm paying for the pro account. I don't know who the developer of it is, but it's freaking amazing because I have on my machine, I just have a hot button and I can talk to Marvin in real time. So","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":88,"time":"15:34","seconds":934,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I don't know, smart.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-20-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":89,"time":"15:35","seconds":935,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] hey Marvin, I am actually on a podcast right now and I want to show off like what you are, but I also need to protect like proprietary stuff for work. So I'm right now I'm showing the I want to show the personality. So I'm looking at the cloud MD file. I'm going to pull up the personality stuff and then I also want to show some other things. Is there anything you would like to tell or say to the audience that do introduce yourself?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-20-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":90,"time":"16:04","seconds":964,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] So that's my talk to text or speech to text. And then. Like","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-20-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":91,"time":"16:09","seconds":969,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Marvin is booping","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-20-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":92,"time":"16:10","seconds":970,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-20-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":93,"time":"16:10","seconds":970,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] right now within","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-20-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":94,"time":"16:11","seconds":971,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] he's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-20-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":95,"time":"16:11","seconds":971,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Claude.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-20-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":96,"time":"16:11","seconds":971,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] booping.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-20-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":97,"time":"16:12","seconds":972,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-20-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":98,"time":"16:12","seconds":972,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] Oh, and if I actually start him up, I don't know if I shared audio on this, but I also gave Marvin a voice, um, a literal voice using 11 labs. Okay, here we go. So fine. So Marvin is fun because Marvin stands for manages appointments, reads various important notifications, named after the paranoid robot. I built him originally as my chief of staff. A few things. He's not a chatbot. He's built entirely on Claude Code with custom commands and agents. No fancy framework, just markdowns, files, bash scripts, and stubbornness. Um, I remember things between conversations. So this is the, this is the problem that we're trying to solve, right? This is the problem that, that we were, that I went after. It's like, I'm tired of having to restart a whole new conversation with Claude. Every time I open up, like","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-20-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":99,"time":"17:02","seconds":1022,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Right. Like I can","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-20-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":100,"time":"17:03","seconds":1023,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] I.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-20-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":101,"time":"17:03","seconds":1023,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] somewhat solve it with project memory if I, if I just do a lot of things in a project, but it doesn't really fully solve the problem.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-20-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":102,"time":"17:09","seconds":1029,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, it doesn't. And so I think it's ridiculous. So I went with the goal of like, I wanna remember context of what we done in the past. I wanna remember like from session to session, what have we done? By the way, at any given time, I have like two or three versions, instances of Marvin running at the same time. And that's a whole nother story for a whole nother time. But all right, so on the right hand side here is the cloud.md file. This is when you start up Cloud. This is basically like the system prompt, right? So we talk about all these things. I have my personal things, my work. What I do is I keep my work people here. And I use this as key context, right? So people I talk about on a regular basis at work, very specifically, because this is my Marvin for work. It's like, hey, Quintin, he's my boss. Oh, well, I'm You know, so anytime I talk about Quentin, it knows, like Marvin remembers who he is and says, so","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-20-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":103,"time":"18:11","seconds":1091,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] It's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-20-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":104,"time":"18:11","seconds":1091,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] I don't","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-20-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":105,"time":"18:11","seconds":1091,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] called","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-20-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":106,"time":"18:11","seconds":1091,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] have","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-20-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":107,"time":"18:11","seconds":1091,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] the reference","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-20-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":108,"time":"18:11","seconds":1091,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] to remember.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-20-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":109,"time":"18:11","seconds":1091,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] in mind. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-20-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":110,"time":"18:12","seconds":1092,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"Yes. Okay. So Marvin behaves. This is the one thing. Um, he surfaces what I need to know. He's proactive by default. Uh, he helps maintain continuity. But then one thing I love is the personality and he has sardonic wit. He's direct and unfiltered. So I swear freely and Marvin can too, when it, when it sees fit. Um, he's not sycophantic. So I skipped the great questions bullshit. This was Marvin writing for himself. So just answer. Um, and important. He's like, he's not a yes man. So when we're making decisions, the goal is we're going to brainstorm together. That is the big key. And then the last one is my favorite is Marvin, don't overdo it. Marvin is helpful first, personality second. This is actually something I had to add later on, because","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":111,"time":"19:04","seconds":1144,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] It's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-21-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":112,"time":"19:05","seconds":1145,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] he was over indexing on sarcastic,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-21-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":113,"time":"19:08","seconds":1148,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] trying","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-21-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":114,"time":"19:08","seconds":1148,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-21-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":115,"time":"19:08","seconds":1148,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] to be","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-21-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":116,"time":"19:08","seconds":1148,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] it was","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-21-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":117,"time":"19:08","seconds":1148,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] a personality","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-21-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":118,"time":"19:08","seconds":1148,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] kind of Yeah,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-21-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":119,"time":"19:09","seconds":1149,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] hire.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-21-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":120,"time":"19:10","seconds":1150,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] it was kind of pissing me off. So I said, dude, too much. I need you to be helpful first and less sarcastic. So he actually wrote this himself. It's like, oh, this is who I am. But when there's an opportunity for a dry comment or well-placed, can I swear on this on the pod? All right. When there's an opportunity for a dry comment or a well-placed for fuck's sake, take it. And I'll tell you, dude, this man, this man, I say, like I am, I am like turning him into human. He has sworn at me when he's made mistakes, and it is hilarious. I love it. So the other thing that I've got, I built in here is my, let me see, my content agent. And so these are subagents. If you're not familiar with it, subagents are here. If you look at it, let me see where I have. So I have a couple things there. Here's some absolute rules.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-21-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":121,"time":"20:09","seconds":1209,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Never","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-21-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":122,"time":"20:09","seconds":1209,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] I got","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-21-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":123,"time":"20:09","seconds":1209,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] use em","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-21-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":124,"time":"20:10","seconds":1210,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] tired","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-21-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":125,"time":"20:10","seconds":1210,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] dashes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-21-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":126,"time":"20:10","seconds":1210,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] of","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-21-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":127,"time":"20:10","seconds":1210,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Good call.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":128,"time":"20:11","seconds":1211,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] get rid of the em dashes replaced with commas,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-22-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":129,"time":"20:13","seconds":1213,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah. Can","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-22-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":130,"time":"20:13","seconds":1213,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] periods,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-22-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":131,"time":"20:13","seconds":1213,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I just","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-22-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":132,"time":"20:14","seconds":1214,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] colons.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-22-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":133,"time":"20:14","seconds":1214,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] sidebar momentarily and say, like, I hate","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-22-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":134,"time":"20:15","seconds":1215,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] Yes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-22-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":135,"time":"20:16","seconds":1216,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] that we are at this point because they are very useful, but it just is what it is. And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-22-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":136,"time":"20:22","seconds":1222,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] It","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-22-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":137,"time":"20:22","seconds":1222,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] today,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-22-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":138,"time":"20:22","seconds":1222,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] is.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-22-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":139,"time":"20:23","seconds":1223,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"you know,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":140,"time":"20:23","seconds":1223,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"You're right. Well, so think about that. Like I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":141,"time":"20:26","seconds":1226,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] three","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-24-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":142,"time":"20:27","seconds":1227,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] get","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-24-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":143,"time":"20:27","seconds":1227,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] years","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-24-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":144,"time":"20:27","seconds":1227,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] on","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-24-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":145,"time":"20:27","seconds":1227,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] ago,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-24-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":146,"time":"20:27","seconds":1227,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] Reddit.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-24-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":147,"time":"20:27","seconds":1227,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] love and em dash.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-24-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":148,"time":"20:29","seconds":1229,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah. Well, and, and we've gotten to the point where we, like, I get onto Reddit or I get onto like any one of the subreddits, like AI, like AI agents, cloud builders. Like there's so many subreddits I follow and even on LinkedIn and I can read someone's post and I go, that was written by Marv. Like that was","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-24-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":149,"time":"20:45","seconds":1245,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Oh,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-24-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":150,"time":"20:46","seconds":1246,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] written","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-24-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":151,"time":"20:46","seconds":1246,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-24-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":152,"time":"20:46","seconds":1246,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] by","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-24-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":153,"time":"20:46","seconds":1246,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] mean,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-24-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":154,"time":"20:46","seconds":1246,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"AI.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":155,"time":"20:46","seconds":1246,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-25-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":156,"time":"20:47","seconds":1247,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] Like,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-25-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":157,"time":"20:47","seconds":1247,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] thing for","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-25-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":158,"time":"20:47","seconds":1247,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] you","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-25-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":159,"time":"20:47","seconds":1247,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] me","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-25-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":160,"time":"20:47","seconds":1247,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] know,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-25-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":161,"time":"20:47","seconds":1247,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] is like","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-25-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":162,"time":"20:47","seconds":1247,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] this.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-25-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":163,"time":"20:48","seconds":1248,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] anytime I'm on like Twitter or Blue Sky or LinkedIn or any social platform, Reddit, it's that it's the not it's the not X, it's Y pattern.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-25-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":164,"time":"20:56","seconds":1256,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] Yes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-25-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":165,"time":"20:56","seconds":1256,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] That one's driving me insane lately.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-25-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":166,"time":"20:57","seconds":1257,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"I can't stand it. So I was very","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":167,"time":"20:59","seconds":1259,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-26-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":168,"time":"20:59","seconds":1259,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] clear. It's like,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-26-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":169,"time":"21:00","seconds":1260,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I use it occasionally,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-26-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":170,"time":"21:00","seconds":1260,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] don't","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-26-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":171,"time":"21:01","seconds":1261,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-26-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":172,"time":"21:01","seconds":1261,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] use.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-26-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":173,"time":"21:01","seconds":1261,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] will admit, like like I use it all the time, so sometimes I leave","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-26-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":174,"time":"21:03","seconds":1263,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-26-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":175,"time":"21:03","seconds":1263,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] it in, you know.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-26-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":176,"time":"21:04","seconds":1264,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah. Well, there's, there's a point to have some of it, right? Like I use AI to draft. I mean, I'll show you some of my, some of my, my blog posts that I've drafted. Like I've, they, they get in there and, and I've used these in the past myself, but we leave over indexed on them. And so","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-26-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":177,"time":"21:19","seconds":1279,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] It's completely over indexed. Yeah, it's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-26-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":178,"time":"21:21","seconds":1281,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-26-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":179,"time":"21:21","seconds":1281,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] become a crush.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-26-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":180,"time":"21:23","seconds":1283,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] So yeah, so here's, here is like, so my sub-agents that does all of it is like, these are the absolute","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-26-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":181,"time":"21:30","seconds":1290,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Basically","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-26-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":182,"time":"21:30","seconds":1290,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] styles.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-26-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":183,"time":"21:30","seconds":1290,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] a brand guide here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-26-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":184,"time":"21:32","seconds":1292,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"Yeah, exactly. And yeah, don't overfill or remove or replace with specific language, like very, really just actually like, these are not how I necessarily speak. So yeah, let's see, what else?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":185,"time":"21:49","seconds":1309,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Well, OK, I have to ask.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-27-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":186,"time":"21:51","seconds":1311,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] I'll","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-27-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":187,"time":"21:51","seconds":1311,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] So.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-27-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":188,"time":"21:51","seconds":1311,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"pause here, cause I keep talking.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":189,"time":"21:53","seconds":1313,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"No, I have like a million questions come out. This is this is why I was saying this is Sterling before we started recording, but like typically I have a prep call with a guest. You know, we talk about like let's structure the conversation and I kind of glanced at the Marvin repo and I was like, I'm just going to talk to Sterling. There's a lot of stuff in here, so let me just keep asking questions here. So one note taking and note consumption. So how do you deal like you're obviously doing great job setting it up with success here, but. When Marvin, like I'll say like one of my and I think many people's biggest use cases for AI is simply like transcribing our meetings and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":190,"time":"22:28","seconds":1348,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] Yes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-29-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":191,"time":"22:29","seconds":1349,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] creating synthesized notes. I have a million, I have a huge notion space where I have all this transcribed notes. I am often synthesizing those for project knowledge documents that turn into structured docs that get fed into Cloud for drafting things like strategy docs, et cetera, or just providing context to different projects. How are you automating, organizing, and ensuring that Marvin remembers notes?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-29-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":192,"time":"22:57","seconds":1377,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"Yeah. So for work, we, we use granola and I don't know if you've heard of that. That's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":193,"time":"23:04","seconds":1384,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I'm familiar with Grinnell. I use it for personal work.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-30-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":194,"time":"23:06","seconds":1386,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] yeah, we use it. I mean, we, we've had like otter, you've had like, like other note-taking things come up. So I use granola. We use granola for work. Here's the crazy thing is I did this with one of my colleagues. Granola doesn't have an API. And at the time of recording, they still don't have an API. They said they're releasing an MCP server. I haven't used it. But so we use Granola to transcribe meetings. I asked Marvin, I said, I mean, really, this is Claude Code. I said, hey, I have an application on my machine called Granola that they like, we're approved to use it. But anytime I'm in a meeting, I need to save these notes. I need the transcription and I need the notes. And I need to figure out how to get this into Marvin here. So when I work on things, I'm not having to go from, because Conor, what you said is like, you copy and paste from one place, you go into notion, and then you copy paste that back into, like, open, like Claude, like the desktop and like, hey, we're gonna do all this work like that copy pasting shouldn't happen. So Marvin went and solved that for me and he said, Oh, I see what it is because you're already logged in and we're on the machine and you're approved for this. I'm very security focused. Um, it's one of the reasons why I don't","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-30-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":195,"time":"24:31","seconds":1471,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-30-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":196,"time":"24:31","seconds":1471,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] like","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-30-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":197,"time":"24:32","seconds":1472,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] think","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-30-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":198,"time":"24:32","seconds":1472,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] open","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-30-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":199,"time":"24:32","seconds":1472,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] it's a","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-30-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":200,"time":"24:32","seconds":1472,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] claw.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-30-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":201,"time":"24:32","seconds":1472,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] huge gap for any folks. So I love that you're","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-30-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":202,"time":"24:34","seconds":1474,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-30-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":203,"time":"24:34","seconds":1474,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] thinking with","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-30-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":204,"time":"24:34","seconds":1474,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] it's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-30-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":205,"time":"24:34","seconds":1474,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-30-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":206,"time":"24:34","seconds":1474,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] like,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-30-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":207,"time":"24:35","seconds":1475,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] forward.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-30-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":208,"time":"24:35","seconds":1475,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] I'm like, I'm already approved for this. So what can we do here? And so Marvin went out looked at granola said, Hey, I found the application, I see where everything is what's happening, what ends up happening is under the sun or under the hood, he explained it, he goes, I can actually capture this and retro build an API for it. And so he did it. So now I literally go","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-30-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":209,"time":"24:56","seconds":1496,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Okay.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-30-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":210,"time":"24:56","seconds":1496,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] in and say, hey, I just got out of a meeting. Can you pull the notes? And Marvin will immediately pull those notes for me. He built that API for me, pulled it in. And this is the integration that changed for one of my colleagues. I'm going to call her out by name. Her name is Liv. She was the first adopter of Marvin at Postman. She said that she got out of a meeting. Oh, we had Atlassian connected, so there's Jira and Confluence already there. That MCP server is a fantastic MCP server. No notes. I use that MCP server for Marvin now, but I got her set up and she got out of a meeting. And decisions were made in that meeting about a major EPIC that's going on. Like she's working on EPIC and she said, she told Marvin, hey, we added the granola integration. She said, Marvin, go pull the last notes and we made some decisions and I need to update the EPIC. And that Epic had like six, like, I don't know, 15, 20 juror tickets that were associated with it with different people who were all responsible for something on it. And she let Marvin, she, she, she pulled the transcript. Marvin pulled the transcript, saw what needed to be done, went and updated every juror ticket that was there and did it all for her and did it all accurately. I mean, she was still human in the loop. She said, yeah, that looks good. Did it update it. Her, her, what she said was, and I quote, it's like, I did Marvin accomplished in 30 minutes. What normally takes me over four hours. And that to me was that's a knowledge worker who's non-technical. Like she's not a developer. I'm like, that's when I thought I'm like, Marvin's got something like there's the ability here as a knowledge worker to build this type of thing. So that's so yeah. So what you were talking about is like, Hey, granola. He's a great one. I know that anything that's got an API, I mean, hell, APIs are like it. And I work at Postman and I, and I'm on the API. Great. I I'm on the API train. I've been on the API train forever. APIs are powering AI right now. And the best eight, like if you don't have a good API, sorry, no one's going to use your product. Granola, like I retro built an API for Granola and it works. And that integration is like, now I just, again, I go in and say, hey, pull my last meeting. What were the decisions we made? Now, the cool thing with this is because I have my current state with Marvin. When I talk, I say, hey, here's my last meeting. I don't even tell him what happened. I said, what happened? Is there anything I need to do after this meeting? And he will go and say, okay, here's all the action items from it. I'm gonna put this on your to-do list. And that task list is in a current state file. That current state just gives me. So when I say, hey, what do I need to work on now? Marvin comes in and says, Hey, you've already done all these three things. Now let's let's focus on this next thing. So at the beginning of my day, when you run slash start on Marvin, there's a there's a slash command there. He bookends he's he pulls in my personal email, he or sorry, he pulls in my work email, he pulls in my a work calendar. He pulls in all my Jira tickets. He pulls in everything that I need. And then we have a stand up every morning. I treat him like a junior assistant. He is not an AI to be told what to do. He is, this is a standup. So then we go back and forth for 10 minutes. It's like, Hey, uh, actually over the overnight, I got some Slack messages from some of my team in India. I, you know, let's update this. And then by the time I'm done with my standup with him, I've got a, I know exactly what I'm going to do for that day. And then the other, the other cool thing is I said, all right, now schedule my day. So he'll go and he'll like block out. So if, if any of my colleagues are watching and you see that my day is completely blocked out, it's because of Marvin. It's like,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-30-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":211,"time":"29:09","seconds":1749,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Marvin's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-30-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":212,"time":"29:09","seconds":1749,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] no, I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-30-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":213,"time":"29:09","seconds":1749,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] fault.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-30-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":214,"time":"29:09","seconds":1749,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] don't want.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-30-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":215,"time":"29:10","seconds":1750,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-30-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":216,"time":"29:10","seconds":1750,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"Yeah. I don't want to be bothered. It's like, I love my co my, I love my colleagues, but I'm like, I don't want to be bothered when I'm trying to focus on building something. So he, he goes and blocks out my time. He's all right, here's everything. And he's like, I think you can do all these within this given time and we go work on it. So it's. It's way too much fun. Dude. Marvin is like these personal assistants. And I think with here's here's not really a hot take, but What we've seen in the first two months of the year, and we're two months into this, right? Like I built Marvin almost two months ago. Open Claw was iterated on and really kind of took off about two months ago. These personal assistants are doing what we've always wanted them to do that no one else is doing. Like, like OpenAI can't do it. Anthropic can't do it. There, there is a level of integration that and customization that, that the reason why we're thirsting after this is because this is AI applied in real time. The fact that I now have OpenClaw and I do, I do have OpenClaw on a Mac mini. I did buy into that. I'm sorry. Like I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":217,"time":"30:25","seconds":1825,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-31-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":218,"time":"30:25","seconds":1825,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] bought a","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-31-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":219,"time":"30:25","seconds":1825,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] almost,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-31-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":220,"time":"30:25","seconds":1825,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] Mac mini.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-31-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":221,"time":"30:25","seconds":1825,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I almost bought a Mac money just for it. I was at Costco and I was like, Ooh,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-31-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":222,"time":"30:29","seconds":1829,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"Actually, and I'm going to tell you this, we're going to have a hard time with, with compute by the end of this year. I think like the open claw thing is,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":223,"time":"30:37","seconds":1837,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] it's happening.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-32-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":224,"time":"30:37","seconds":1837,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] is I think it's the tip of the iceberg. I don't think this is a going away. Um, and if it doesn't go away, then we need to figure out like the computes there. So I bought a Mac mini purposely knowing that I need a Mac. I need to compute just to run on my own if I can't get it. Like, I went to the Apple store down here and they sold out of all of, like, within, like, I'm in the Bay Area, right? So within a, like the entirety of the Bay Area, every base level Mac mini was sold out. That's not going away. Like we're, we're not, we're, so I, I, anyways, but these AI assistants are like Marvin, open claw, like these, these assistants are doing what AI was meant to do and open like four, six, five, three that came out. These all unlocked an even greater like need for these, like for these tools, like, In 4.6, I write","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-32-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":225,"time":"31:43","seconds":1903,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"blog posts and I write a lot of code.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":226,"time":"31:47","seconds":1907,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Thanks to Galileo for sponsoring this episode. Their new 165-page comprehensive guide to mastering multi-agent systems is freely available on their website at galileo.ai and provides you the lens you need to understand when multi-agent systems add value versus single-agent approaches, how to design them efficiently, and how to build reliable systems that work in production. Download it for free at the link in the show description to discover how to continuously improve for your AI agents, identify and avoid common coordination pitfalls, master context engineering for agent collaboration, measure performance with multi-agent metrics, and much more. Do you have something that's kind of on your to-do list that you could take us through with Marvin?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":227,"time":"32:36","seconds":1956,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"Yeah, actually, let's do it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":228,"time":"32:37","seconds":1957,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"In the meantime, I'll also note that as Sterling's doing this, I am looking through the repo and I'm going like, oh, OK, I see a couple of connections I would need to build to try this out. So you might get a PR from, well, from Claude Code. It's kind of from me, probably from","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":229,"time":"32:51","seconds":1971,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] Hey,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-36-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":230,"time":"32:51","seconds":1971,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Claude Code more than anything else later today.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-36-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":231,"time":"32:53","seconds":1973,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] it works. I mean, I've had, dude, after the, at the first, within the first 24 hours, I had two, I had two people who submitted PRs for Marvin. And again, that's when I knew something was going to happen. Like I knew something was working.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-36-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":232,"time":"33:07","seconds":1987,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-36-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":233,"time":"33:08","seconds":1988,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] Okay.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-36-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":234,"time":"33:08","seconds":1988,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I see. As of right now, there's no linear integration set up, and I was like, oh, we use linear in Modular, so if I'm going to really take advantage of this, I have to go port this to linear, so it","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":235,"time":"33:18","seconds":1998,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] It's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-37-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":236,"time":"33:18","seconds":1998,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] should","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-37-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":237,"time":"33:18","seconds":1998,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] true.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-37-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":238,"time":"33:18","seconds":1998,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] be easy.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-37-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":239,"time":"33:19","seconds":1999,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"All right. So, uh, let's do this. I'm going to actually just kind of walk you through my process. So my process is that I typically just record it. Like I go onto my, if I'm on a walk, I go and I record a train of thought and I just record myself talking. And then I go back to Marvin and I say, Hey, I need, like, I just wrote, talked a lot about a lot of random stuff. Can you put this into an outline? I want to make this a post. This is a perfect example. Um, and draft of a blog posts where I was on a walk and I was talking about AI for normies. And I, I was listening to the AI daily brief. I was listening to Navy Jones, two of my favorite podcasts. And I was listening to him. I was like, really the goal of AI is like you and I are adopters, right? We're technical. We love these things, but. How do we make AI useful for the normal person? And I think that's the unlock that we're trying to get to. And right now, I don't see OpenAI or Cloud actually being able to do that. It's still, like, Cloud is still limited. They're all still limited within a text box. I mean, Claude Code is getting there, but my sister's not going to use Claude Code. She's a stay-at-home mom. So I wrote this outline here. So AI for Normal is what my sister taught me about the real AI gap. The problem, the content is written by tech people for tech people. The real gap isn't technical. And so this was an outline that I'd worked on in the past. And I broke this off after I was working on another one. But what I'm going to do here, I'm going to drag that in here and say, okay.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":240,"time":"35:15","seconds":2115,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"Hey Marv, so I want to work on this outline for the AI for Normies blog post. So one of the things that I really like about it, I think everything works. Right now the outline actually fits for what we're doing. Can we do a real quick first draft of this and see what it would do? I want to keep this, the target audience of this is going to be non-technical users. But, so like my sister who is non-technical will be the target audience for this. But I want to also make it so that those who are in the tech industry will see why this is so important.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":241,"time":"36:05","seconds":2165,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-39-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":242,"time":"36:06","seconds":2166,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] And Marvin is taking us through its thought process. It's starting to jump in on the sidebar here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-39-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":243,"time":"36:13","seconds":2173,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"All right, so you'll see that he spawned the content agent. So that is my content agent. That's the one that I showed you earlier that is very clear about like, this is a, you know, you're not doing AI slop. So now anytime I write something, It goes immediately through my content agent and it does that first pass for me. So a couple of my other posts that I've done. I did the future of AI work. This was my horse manure. If you haven't read that one, that was one of my favorite ones. It's about like why horse manure and AI have What do they have in common? And that one, you can see I had five drafts of this with articles that I pulled. But now I'm also finding, even after this, I only go through one or two drafts before I'm good to go. So I think this AI for Normies is a perfect example. This sub-agent will build it for me, the draft's done, or he's writing it right now, and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":244,"time":"37:23","seconds":2243,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"But see, I mean.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":245,"time":"37:27","seconds":2247,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, so I mean, here we are, we're at where we've done this. I mean, this","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-41-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":246,"time":"37:31","seconds":2251,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-41-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":247,"time":"37:31","seconds":2251,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] was like, this is a good first draft. Let me take a look. So he's going to come back and tell me. Draft is done, saved. Let me pull it up so you can see. I mean, so Marvin is like, if I didn't have Cursor open, Marvin would pull it up. And this is the thing that I love about Marvin and why I built him the way I did. I'm going to have to go back and read this draft eventually, right? That's on the right-hand side. But on the left-hand side, Marvin came back and gave me that summary. He goes, all right, I wrote it. Here's what you've got. Like, I had this conversation, well, with Marvin this morning. The reality is, is like, we want Marvin. The problem with Google and the problem with Alexa. So I'm like, you go and you've got, you Google Alexa or Google Nest and you've got your Alexa apps at home. And you're like, you know, say, hey, Alexa, do this. And it will read the entirety of the thing for you. But that's not what a coworker does, right? So Conor, if you and I are coworkers, I came to you and say, hey, can you draft this blog post for me? Or hey, what happened with that blog post? And you say, Hey, I've drafted it. Here's the TLDR. Here's what the blog post is. And that's what Marvin does right here. Marvin is. It's about 1600 words. Here's what you've got hook with my sister's question, content problem, AI discourse excludes normal people. So he walks through and he talks about the horseman or callback, the CTA sisters texts as a closer, the dual audience works. So as if. Oh, and then there's that one flag, right? What flag on line 17","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-41-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":248,"time":"39:14","seconds":2354,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Uh, yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-41-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":249,"time":"39:14","seconds":2354,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] has a not not this because I'm going to zoom in like I realize I'm on my big screen.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-41-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":250,"time":"39:24","seconds":2364,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Not","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-41-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":251,"time":"39:24","seconds":2364,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] Not","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-41-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":252,"time":"39:24","seconds":2364,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] X, but","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-41-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":253,"time":"39:24","seconds":2364,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] this,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-41-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":254,"time":"39:24","seconds":2364,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Y crutch","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-41-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":255,"time":"39:25","seconds":2365,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] not X, but","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-41-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":256,"time":"39:25","seconds":2365,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] that we talked","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-41-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":257,"time":"39:26","seconds":2366,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] Y structure.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-41-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":258,"time":"39:26","seconds":2366,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] about, you know?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-41-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":259,"time":"39:27","seconds":2367,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] But that's borderline on the contrastive crutch rule. Could rework if it bugs you. So let me go back and look at it. That question stopped me cold. I work in tech. Yeah, I don't like that. You know what?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-41-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":260,"time":"39:41","seconds":2381,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, it's a little too much.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-41-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":261,"time":"39:45","seconds":2385,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"Yeah, line 17, that is too, that's just too much.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":262,"time":"39:50","seconds":2390,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I'd","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-42-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":263,"time":"39:50","seconds":2390,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] Can","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-42-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":264,"time":"39:50","seconds":2390,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] almost","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-42-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":265,"time":"39:50","seconds":2390,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] you rework","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-42-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":266,"time":"39:50","seconds":2390,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] argue you","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-42-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":267,"time":"39:51","seconds":2391,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] that?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-42-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":268,"time":"39:51","seconds":2391,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] could just, sorry I didn't mean to cut off your Marvin comms, you could just cut the not because I isn't useful to her line sentence entirely. I think it works without that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-42-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":269,"time":"40:00","seconds":2400,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] I do too. But let's see what","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-42-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":270,"time":"40:02","seconds":2402,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Let's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-42-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":271,"time":"40:02","seconds":2402,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] he","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-42-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":272,"time":"40:02","seconds":2402,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] see","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-42-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":273,"time":"40:02","seconds":2402,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] does.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-42-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":274,"time":"40:02","seconds":2402,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] what it does.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-42-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":275,"time":"40:06","seconds":2406,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Okay, so Marvin's running your calendar. It's helping you understand day to day what you're working","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":276,"time":"40:11","seconds":2411,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] Mm-hmm.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-43-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":277,"time":"40:11","seconds":2411,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] on. It's giving you content drafts. Uh, what are some of their tasks are using for our two? Obviously we're still we're still running through this example, but I'm curious to understand like what else","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-43-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":278,"time":"40:19","seconds":2419,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-43-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":279,"time":"40:20","seconds":2420,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"updating linear or upgero tickets.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":280,"time":"40:23","seconds":2423,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] Oh, gosh. I mean, I haven't even opened Jira. Okay. Do you want to, I'm going to stop","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-44-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":281,"time":"40:29","seconds":2429,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Be","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-44-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":282,"time":"40:29","seconds":2429,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] sharing","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-44-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":283,"time":"40:29","seconds":2429,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] still","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-44-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":284,"time":"40:29","seconds":2429,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] my","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-44-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":285,"time":"40:29","seconds":2429,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] my","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-44-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":286,"time":"40:29","seconds":2429,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] screen.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-44-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":287,"time":"40:29","seconds":2429,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] beating heart. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-44-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":288,"time":"40:31","seconds":2431,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"Let me, let me stop sharing my screen and let me, let me give you my hot take on this. Again, I was, I had a conversation with Jira or with Marvin this morning. Um, I think traditionally UI is dead. UI right now is for humans and I don't like it where it it's a human construct. It's good for us, but dude, I haven't been in Jira in three weeks.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":289,"time":"40:55","seconds":2455,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"Marvin's making all the Jira tickets for me. He knows what he, so something to, something to note. And this is something I I've told everyone who's onboarded with Marvin so far. Treat Marvin like a junior assistant or a junior engineer. I'm a software engineer. So treat him like a junior engineer. We hire someone new. Conor, how you hire, you hire a junior, you hire a junior on your team. What is their onboarding time?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":290,"time":"41:23","seconds":2483,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Oh, man, depends on the role, obviously. But I mean, I wouldn't expect major impact from them in the first two months, realistically.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":291,"time":"41:33","seconds":2493,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"So yeah, most, most companies give you a 90 day grace period. And depending on the role, I, there are times where I'm like, you're not going to be helpful for probably six months.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":292,"time":"41:45","seconds":2505,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, there, there's at least for break even as far as like","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":293,"time":"41:49","seconds":2509,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":294,"time":"41:49","seconds":2509,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"the time put in by the team and the manager to really get that person up and running. If you're more general, if you're more junior, I should say, yeah, it's, it's going to be a few months probably. And I mean, what you see with managers too, where the break even on impact can take too long for an org. And often that's where managers fail and kind of lose trust if they don't accelerate things early on.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":295,"time":"42:15","seconds":2535,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, you're exactly right. And I 100% agree with you. So when you're onboarding with Marvin, when I tell people when you're using him, treat him like a, treat him like you're onboarding a new colleague. So my Marvin now is vastly different, like than when I started with him in January on January 5th. he's adopted he's adapted he has evolved he is now much better so when i so i give him feedback um so like one of the things i was i was going to mention with jira is I say, I started off with, Hey, go get my JIRA tickets. Marvin, like what JIRA tickets? There's like, if I go into JIRA, if I go into Atlassian, there are thousands of JIRA tickets. Some are, some are not even required by me, but I need to be watching them. So what I do with Marvin and what I recommend users do is I go to Confluence and I go to my Confluence space and I say, and I share the full link to the Confluence space. I go to my Kanban board and I share the full link in my Kanban board. And then I, and I go back to Marvin and say, here is my, here is the, my personal space that I work out of. Here's the DevRel workspace in, in Confluence that I work out of. Here's my Kanban board in Jira that I work out of. That gives Marvin, just as if you're like, assume Conor, you've got a colleague. We're back in the office and you've got a junior and you're showing them your screen. You're going to walk them to the screen. You're not","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-51-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":296,"time":"43:52","seconds":2632,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-51-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":297,"time":"43:52","seconds":2632,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] going","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-51-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":298,"time":"43:52","seconds":2632,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] then","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-51-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":299,"time":"43:52","seconds":2632,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-51-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":300,"time":"43:52","seconds":2632,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] it'd","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-51-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":301,"time":"43:52","seconds":2632,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] say","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-51-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":302,"time":"43:52","seconds":2632,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] be","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-51-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":303,"time":"43:52","seconds":2632,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] exactly.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-51-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":304,"time":"43:52","seconds":2632,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] like, here are the docs, go read it, please. You like, make sure you understand what's going on. Yeah. Take some time to go through.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-51-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":305,"time":"43:59","seconds":2639,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"So that's exactly what's happening here. Like I just onboard Marvin like you would any other colleague. So I show him, here's all the docs, here's where everything's at, here's what I do, go read through it, and so you can get context on what my focus is and that. So then... Marvin, when I started working with Jira, Marvin would pull some of my tickets and then I'd say, that's wrong. That's right. And then he would say, okay, I've remembered this. I'll do it better next time. Um, let me give you a really funny case, uh, system or what happened a couple of weeks ago. So, um, For Postman, I run meetups. I run all of our meetups in the San Francisco area called Agents and APIs. And I'm using Marvin to help me track all my JIRA tickets, make sure that everything works as needed. And works like I make sure the juror tickets are updated or he he manages juror tickets. He makes sure that we've hit all of our checkboxes. Helps you track like, hey, have you have you ordered swag? Hey, have you ordered food? Have you done, you know, done all these things? And. Right before the last meetup, I said, Hey, um, Heidi and James are doing security for the meetup. Those are the security guards at Postman and our security guards and receptionists. And Marvin didn't know that context. So he went and said, oh, well, he said, Heidi and James are speaking about security. And so he updated his jacket. He went and updated my slide deck. He did all the things that I would have wanted to do. And then I explained, dude, you're wrong. they are the security guards, they're not speaking. So he then said, I'm so sorry, I fucked up. And then he went and had to redo and he went back into the juror ticket.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":306,"time":"45:56","seconds":2756,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] That's a junior","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-52-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":307,"time":"45:57","seconds":2757,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] Like,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-52-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":308,"time":"45:57","seconds":2757,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] mistake right there. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-52-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":309,"time":"45:58","seconds":2758,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] that's a, it is, it's a junior mistake. Am I mad at it? No, I think it's hilarious. Has he made that same mistake again? No. A junior, a good, a good junior would not make that same mistake twice.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-52-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":310,"time":"46:12","seconds":2772,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":311,"time":"46:13","seconds":2773,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] Marvin is a good junior. Now he's at the point now where I'm like, I, again, I use him all day, every day. I've, I would now say he's like immediate, like a, a mid-level he's not senior or staff or principal, but he's really up there where at the point where like, I trust him to do a lot more stuff that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-53-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":312,"time":"46:31","seconds":2791,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] You're what,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-53-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":313,"time":"46:31","seconds":2791,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] I just","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-53-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":314,"time":"46:31","seconds":2791,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] 40,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-53-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":315,"time":"46:31","seconds":2791,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] don't","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-53-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":316,"time":"46:32","seconds":2792,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] 40","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-53-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":317,"time":"46:32","seconds":2792,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] want to do.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-53-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":318,"time":"46:32","seconds":2792,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] days in right now. So that's, that's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-53-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":319,"time":"46:34","seconds":2794,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-53-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":320,"time":"46:34","seconds":2794,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"really good a growth director right there.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":321,"time":"46:37","seconds":2797,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":322,"time":"46:41","seconds":2801,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"If I'm listening and I'm excited, I think Marvin could be what I need at work, or maybe I just need it to help me out in my day to day. How do I get started?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":323,"time":"46:53","seconds":2813,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"Okay. This is where, this is where it's really hard. If you're a technical person, if you're a software engineer and you're around these things, you should have no problem getting them set up. If you're non-technical, this is where it's going to, this is where there's going to be a pretty wide gap of capability or of knowledge. You need a terminal, you need Claude Code, you need some type of ID, so Cursor, VS code, windsurf, any anti-gravity, and then that's it. You need those three things. But again, if you're not a software engineer, I onboarded two more non-technical people this morning onto Marvin. There never have been software engineers. One's an English major. I had to go and say, OK, well, we need to go download iTerm. Now we need to go to Homebrew. And they're looking at this going, Homebrew looks super sketchy. As a non-technical person, it looks super sketch. So I'm like, no, go down. You're going to install Homebrew. You've got to install Node. You've got to install, like, you've got to do the, you know, brew, install, cask, Claude Code. You've got to do all those things. They look super intimidating. That's, that's the gap that we have in the industry right now is knowledge workers are, and I know like Claude and topic was trying to do that with co-work, um, in, in their app. It's okay. I tried it. It's not nearly as good as Marvin. And like. Marvin is better and OpenClaw is better. These community built ones are just significantly better than what they have, but they're trying to accomplish that. So if you want to use Marvin, he can go to the repo. I'll show the link with it, but just look up Sterling Chin and then Marvin template. You can find it on GitHub. I'm on LinkedIn, I'm on Reddit, I'm on Twitter, you can always ping me there. And then honestly, so the cool thing with the onboarding is that onboarding with Marvin, you clone the repo down and you open up, you clone it, you get in the terminal, you CD into the repo, and then all you do is say, help me set up Marvin. And then Claude Code will read through, cause I built, I purposely built this package to be for non-technical people. So I have, again, I have two department heads at Postman who are using Marvin right now, um, who are non-technical. So he walks you through, he's like, what's your name? Where do you work? What's your job title? He goes through, it's like, what are your, what are your personal goals or your work goals? That is a very personal thing because for me, my Marvin, he knows that I want to do 10,000 steps a day. So","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":324,"time":"49:45","seconds":2985,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Love","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-57-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":325,"time":"49:45","seconds":2985,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] after an hour","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-57-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":326,"time":"49:46","seconds":2986,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-57-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":327,"time":"49:46","seconds":2986,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] or","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-57-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":328,"time":"49:46","seconds":2986,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Hey","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-57-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":329,"time":"49:46","seconds":2986,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] so of working with him, he will literally say, Sterling, it's time to get off your ass and go touch grass. So then I'm like, Aye aye, Captain. So I get up, I walk out, I go, I go walk around the block and I come back up. It's like, Hey, don't forget to drink your water. I mean, I'm drinking my, I'm drinking my water here. So, yeah. But he'll walk you through everything. The onboarding is meant to be non-intrusive, very comfortable for you to do. He'll ask you your work goals, what you're tracking against. And then he'll walk you through kind of an onboarding. He's like, here are the commands that you need to do. You need start, you need end, there is an update. And so like I mentioned at the beginning, you bookend your days, you start, you run, start at the beginning of the day, that kind of pulls in the context from the previous day, gives you everything you need to know. Throughout the day, you can run the slash update command. And that slash update command will take a will give you everything that you've done in that session in that little bit of that small session. So we're, we're knowledge workers, we're software engineers, we're working on one thing, and then we go to the next. So when I'm done with one thing, when I'm like, I've, this is all I've done, this is all I need to do for the day, I don't need to finish this, I just need to get this blog post done, I would then type actually, you know what, I'm just gonna do this, I'm just gonna share my screen and you're gonna watch me do this while we're here. I do my slash start, but then I'm gonna go slash update here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-57-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":330,"time":"51:24","seconds":3084,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"So what happens now is Marvin's gonna go look in and he's going to my sessions. He's gonna see that I don't have a session for the 13th. So if you look down here, he just added the 13th session. Sessions for, oh gosh, I realized it's Friday the 13th. And then he says, checkpointed. So now I've got a checkpoint. So now I'm confident here that if, again, if I run out of context, I can clear the context here, or you can compress it, because you know you've only got 200,000.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":331,"time":"52:02","seconds":3122,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"So here, I can finish this all up, and it's okay. Now let's go work on the next thing. So now he's got me in the, it's beginning of afternoon. I'm on a podcast. Introduce Marvin to the audience. Drafted A for Normie's blog post. Fixed contrastive clutch and draft has been saved. So now if I were to go do something.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":332,"time":"52:30","seconds":3150,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"Yesterday, actually. Hey Marv, yesterday I was working on a plugin for Claude Code for Postman. Can you give me a quick overview of what we accomplished yesterday?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":333,"time":"52:50","seconds":3170,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"So what Marvin's doing, he's going back and he's going to be reading two files. Realistically, he's reading the 12th here and he's reading my current state. And so here it is. He says, yesterday was a big day. Here's the quick rundown, bid shift. It's like what we got built. We've built the full PRD written for the Postman plugin. There's eight commands, three skills and one agent. I did QA testing, 455 out of the 472 QA checks passed, 10 fixes have been applied. We shipped nine clean commits, still open to do from yesterday. So now I've got this. It's like, Marvin knows. Like, hey, where did we end up yesterday? A lot of times when you, when you're in a, when you're in a situation where you're on a team, you're a software engineer, you are a knowledge worker, you start your day and you're like, you have, you spend the first hour of your day wondering, okay, what did we do yesterday? What is the, what, what do I need to, what did I finish, where did I finish off last day, yesterday? And how do I, what do I need to do to pick up from this? So in this case, what I could do is say, hey, Marv, let's pick up from where we left yesterday. I did do the end-to-end results, or I did do the end-to-end tests for him. I tested it in a separate session. It worked out really, really well. But I do need to make the GIF demo, and we do need to work on the Marketplace listing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":334,"time":"54:28","seconds":3268,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"And That's just, this is how I interact with Marvin. And so yeah, to do. So after this, after you and I are done here, I am literally gonna go and I'm gonna record, you know, GIFs. We're building this. So hopefully by the time this is released, right?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":335,"time":"54:49","seconds":3289,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"You know, this plugin, our official Postman plugin is ready to go. So.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":336,"time":"54:55","seconds":3295,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Awesome. Sterling, thanks for this walkthrough of Marvin. It's been a ton of fun meeting you, Marvin, if you're still listening. And yeah, really enjoyed the conversation, Sterling. Always great catching up with you. I thought it was particularly insightful when you brought up earlier this idea that You know, the compute crunch that we have all been worrying about, despite the insane CAPEX coming out of the top hyperscalers to build out more data centers, build out more compute, besides discussion of data centers in space and much more, it's coming. We're all buying Mac minis when we're on the cutting edge of this, or at least to mess around with at a minimum.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-63-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":337,"time":"55:35","seconds":3335,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-63-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":338,"time":"55:36","seconds":3336,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Given this idea of the compute crunch, and I'll say, talking to many compute partners today, it's a lot harder to get nodes than it has been at certain times. This is a big issue. What else are you expecting as the proliferation of agents spreads across the world? And I think outside of software development, what else are you expecting to see?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":339,"time":"56:02","seconds":3362,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"we are really good at adapting. So here's what I expect. We're going to have a compute crunch. And I think out of necessity, that's going to force us to start to work, really work on small language models. So I would love to see open source models come out that are small, they can run on a Mac Mini. quickly, right? I can run a llama, I mean, I could run, you know, llama, I could run, you know, Kimmy too, and I could run all of these on the Mac Mini as it is, but it's slow. And the reason why we're constrained, the reason why I use Claude Code as a harness for Marvin is because I can't run a local model on my machine that is fast enough that will, that meets the requirements that I have. I would love to see, so with the compute crunch that's happening, I think that's inevitably gonna force the open source world to really say, okay, now, like, I'm also looking at Mistral. I'm looking at them as hopefully the standard bearer that they can come in. I love Meta, or I used to like Llama. It's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":340,"time":"57:12","seconds":3432,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] last","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-65-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":341,"time":"57:12","seconds":3432,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] not","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-65-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":342,"time":"57:13","seconds":3433,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] couple","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-65-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":343,"time":"57:13","seconds":3433,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] for me anymore.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-65-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":344,"time":"57:13","seconds":3433,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] iterations have been.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-65-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":345,"time":"57:15","seconds":3435,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"Yeah,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":346,"time":"57:16","seconds":3436,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-66-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":347,"time":"57:16","seconds":3436,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] so","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-66-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":348,"time":"57:16","seconds":3436,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] if","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-66-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":349,"time":"57:16","seconds":3436,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] I'm","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-66-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":350,"time":"57:16","seconds":3436,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] you're","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-66-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":351,"time":"57:16","seconds":3436,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] looking","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-66-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":352,"time":"57:16","seconds":3436,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] a meta","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-66-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":353,"time":"57:16","seconds":3436,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] at,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-66-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":354,"time":"57:16","seconds":3436,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] person listening to this, you want to come defend llama on the podcast, please send us your spokesperson. We'll happy to talk to them.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-66-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":355,"time":"57:23","seconds":3443,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"Yeah, but I'm hoping Mistral, like I want to see some small language models come in that we could run like these coding agents that like a Claude Code clone that can run on a machine. That I think is that is going to happen this year. I think knowing that the compute is so constrained, even at the foundation, like at the leaders of the foundation models, the next iteration has got to be a small model. That's what I like to see eventually. I want it on my phone. Now, the reason why I use OpenClaw, and again, I have OpenClaw in with no relation to anything that I'm doing for work. It is on my own personal hobby stuff. The reason why I have OpenClaw running on my own machine, on my own Mac mini is because I can connect to them over my phone. Now, the cool thing with that is that I gave an instance of Marvin to my wife, And so she's talking to Marvin. So we have, we're using one of the apps, chat apps. I have a shared conversation for a finance Marvin. That's me and my wife in a financial advisor version of Marvin that I have. She has her own version of Marvin that I've given her that is like sandboxed. It's like, no, she could only use, Like she can, she can actually write code. She's not a developer, but she can push to this repo. And I've given the permissions to do that. And I said, only this person I've, I've added a bunch of security measures, but like she has her own version of the Marvin and how she's using it. And that's a really cool. That's that's cool. But. that's still having an API that's connected all the things. Long term, I want, I want something on my phone that is like, I have a model on my phone, that is my own personal agent. So open source, open source has got to win. I don't want to, I, as much as I love Anthropic and OpenAI and Gemini, and I have a lot of, I have a lot of respect for their teams over there. I think the end of the day, I really want for personal stuff, I want an open source to win.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":356,"time":"59:38","seconds":3578,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I love it. That's a great call to action. And I think it's something that I know the team over at Modular is very excited about, but it's our open source push. I know a lot of folks are working on this on their individual time. I think it's going to happen. There's going to be closed sections because people want to make money. But broadly, the infrastructure for AI has to be open source in order to let this have the impact that we want it to in a positive way and limit the downsides because there are downsides.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-67-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":357,"time":"1:00:09","seconds":3609,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-67-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":358,"time":"1:00:09","seconds":3609,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Sterling, thank you so much for this fantastic conversation. Thank you for thinking about security on this. You've given me at least three PR ideas for Marvin that I will be going to play with Claude Code on the rest of the afternoon. Great chatting with","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-67-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":359,"time":"1:00:22","seconds":3622,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"Conor, it's always good to see you, and I'm always happy to come back. And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":360,"time":"1:00:26","seconds":3626,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"you. Yeah, definitely.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":361,"time":"1:00:27","seconds":3627,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] on","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-69-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":362,"time":"1:00:27","seconds":3627,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] We'll have to have an","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-69-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":363,"time":"1:00:27","seconds":3627,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-69-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":364,"time":"1:00:27","seconds":3627,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] update","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-69-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":365,"time":"1:00:27","seconds":3627,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] last","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-69-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":366,"time":"1:00:28","seconds":3628,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] once you go viral again. So,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-69-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":367,"time":"1:00:29","seconds":3629,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"[OVERLAP] Well,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-69-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":368,"time":"1:00:29","seconds":3629,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-69-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":369,"time":"1:00:30","seconds":3630,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"I was gonna say, on a final note, I do have a couple big structural changes for Marvin that I've been working on, that on my open clause, on my Mac Mini I've been working on. I think it's gonna be a really big update, and I'm doing it internally with a couple people that use Marvin. I'm testing it out with them and seeing, hey, does this actually work? So that's coming, and I'm going to hint at something. I'm joining a hackathon over the weekend, and I think I've got some more stuff coming.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":370,"time":"1:01:11","seconds":3671,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Okay, so what I'm hearing is by the time I'm actually done editing this thing and ready to get it out, I'm gonna have to call you and be like, no, no, no, you gotta get back on 50 more minutes. Just, like, give me the update.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":371,"time":"1:01:21","seconds":3681,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"Maybe.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":372,"time":"1:01:21","seconds":3681,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-73","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":373,"time":"1:01:22","seconds":3682,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"Love it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-74","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":374,"time":"1:01:22","seconds":3682,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Sterling, good luck with the hackathon. Super excited to see the results of that. Listeners, if you enjoyed this episode, let us know. Or if you think we missed something, or this format isn't quite landing with you, I would love to hear that as well. I know we're experimenting a bit, so we're hoping these Builder First conversations are something folks are having a lot of fun with. But if they need to be structured differently, we would love that feedback. Sterling, thanks for coming on. It's been a pleasure, and hope you enjoy the rest of your day.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-75","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day","episode":50,"guid":"3a4111c1-46c0-4947-ab27-8c46321917ca","episodeTitle":"I Built an AI Coworker That Runs 90% of My Day | Sterling Chin, Postman","publishedAt":"2026-03-04","segmentIndex":375,"time":"1:01:49","seconds":3709,"speaker":"Sterling Chin","text":"You as well. Thanks for having me.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/50-i-built-an-ai-coworker-that-runs-90-of-my-day/#t-76","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:04","seconds":4,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Welcome back to Chain of Thought, everyone. I am your host, Conor Bronsdon, head of technical ecosystem at Modular. And today we are talking about something every AI product team is wrestling with right now. When do you fine tune? When do you use frontier models? And how the heck do you make these decisions when everything changes quarter by quarter, if not week by week at times with some of these recent model releases? My guest today is Fergal Reid. Fergal is the chief AI officer at Intercom, where he has scaled their AI team from just 10 people to 55 in about two and a half years, and planning to double that team size again next year as they continue to heavily invest in AI, including with their agent Finn, which we'll talk a bit about. But what makes this conversation particularly valuable is that Fergal and his team have completely reversed their position on a fundamental strategic question. Just two years ago, Intercom's take was relatively simple. Look, Frontier LLMs are improving so fast, we don't really need to spend that much time fine-tuning. Just get really good at prompt engineering, providing context, and ride the wave of better models. Today, they've instead heavily invested in post-training and fine-tuning open weight models, with fine-tuned Qwen models running at scale in production, replacing GPT-4 for key tasks, and saving significant money in the process. So what changed? How did Intercom and Fergal make these decisions? And what does that tell us about where the industry is heading? Fergal, welcome to Chain of Thought. It's great to see you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":1,"time":"1:32","seconds":92,"speaker":"Fergal Reid","text":"Thanks for having me, Conor. Delighted to be here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":2,"time":"1:34","seconds":94,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, I think this is gonna be a really fun conversation because often in these talks, we don't focus on a use case and really talk through the trade-offs that are made along the way as much as I think we ought to. It's very common, and I think listeners will tell me this occasionally, like, hey, look, this is maybe a little too high level. You just talked about what's exciting, what's interesting, and those conversations can be useful, but I think it's important to drill down and really explore why decisions were made at a company like Intercom, and I think it's going to be a fascinating test case. So let's just start with that elephant in the room. You know, two and a half years ago, your position was essentially don't bother fine tuning. The frontier models are improving too fast. Focus elsewhere. Now you have, as we said, heavily invested in post-training open weight models. Walk me through what changed your mind. How did you get to where you are today?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-1-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":3,"time":"2:27","seconds":147,"speaker":"Fergal Reid","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, absolutely, Conor. So things really changed out there in the external world. So again, two and a half years ago, we were just starting to build Thin, and we were building Thin initially with GPT-4, GPT-3.5 at the time. It didn't follow in instructions as well, it used to hallucinate more and UDGBD4 was this threshold for us where we'd be given instructions to try and constrain it to just answering in, you know, from text that a business customer of ours controlled, which everyone calls RAG now. And so, we were very early to that. And there was really so much to do at the time by just getting better and better at prompting these large models. The difference between a badly prompted GPT-4 and a very well-prompted with a well-engineered prompt night and day in terms of the actual performance, in terms of the actual accuracy. And so there was just this period of time for maybe a year, year and a half where models got better so fast, they got cheaper, they got more efficient. We had models like Sonnet came along, Claude Sonnet 3, 3.5 came along really much better at like following instructions. And we could do a lot more by just getting very good at like prompt engineering, tuning, back testing, building more and more into the core prompts. And at the time, there was other people in the space talking a lot about, you know, training their own models or maybe taking a model and, you know, post-training or mid-training with this like mix of data curated for their specific area. And we looked at that and we did a few experiments. I remember we ran an A-B test with a fine-tuned version of It was Text Da Vinci 3, one of the GPT 3.5 turbo models. We ran experiments with fine-tuning. We fine-tuned models like in the GPT 3.5 turbo series, and we did A-B tests and production of those, but we just didn't see the improvement overall versus instead just getting better and better, like taking these models and just getting better and prompting them. And so that was really the case for a long time. We made this very deliberate decision. No, we're not going to invest a ton of money and time into finding your own models. We're just going to piggyback on this wave of, it felt like every quarter or two quarters, there was a new leading frontier model that was dramatically better at customer service and at the sort of things we wanted to do. And really in the last sort of six months, nine months, that's kind of changing. Now, I do think the frontier models are continuing to improve and they're getting better and better, like being agentic and following instructions. But in our area, our domain of customer service, let's say for our core RAG tasks, The models, it feels like they're saturating the intelligence level that we need for that core task. And instead, what's more important to us is really fine grained control over when the models do and don't behave in certain ways. So one thing we care a lot about at Intercom is with Finn is, when should you escalate? When should you say, hey, I want to involve a human in this? And that's something that we care a lot about, very fine control over. And so we spent a long time hand engineering our prompt with certain times when you should escalate and when you shouldn't, giving customers even the ability to provide guidance to that. But we've been able to get a level of control over and above that again by actually post-training and fine-tuning some custom models. And so I really think that when your application matures, maybe when you no longer need frontier levels of intelligence, It's a good idea to think about doing your own post writing because you can reduce cost a lot and also you can get like much more fine-grained control over the exact policy that the LLM follows. So both of those reasons have been very effective for us.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-1-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":4,"time":"6:38","seconds":398,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"When did you start to question that original approach that you were taking? Was there a specific moment where you said, actually, maybe we need to change up how we're approaching this? Or was it more gradual, maybe even correlated to simple team capacity growth and the ability to say, oh, look, now we can do both?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":5,"time":"6:55","seconds":415,"speaker":"Fergal Reid","text":"It's definitely related to team capacity growth. Now the causality goes both way around there, which is that we hire more people because we want to do more post-training, and so we do that because we think there's more value to it, there's more upside to it. And I would say that like, you know, around the time of DeepSeek, that was really when the open weight models started to become close to the closed weight models and started to become almost good enough to do some of our core tasks. And so for a long time, you know, FIN underneath the hood, there's the hardest prompt of FIN, which we use Claude Sonnet for in production, which is like that kind of core answer the end user's question. But then there's always been a set of ancillary prompts that are very important to the overall experience that we've had for a long time. And we would always try and run these prompts on the smallest, cheapest, lowest latency model that we could to get the best end user experience. And so for an example of this would be like, When you ask a question to Finn, the first thing we've always done is we've always had an LLM that will try and summarize and canonicalize the query that the end user has asked. And we found it's worth using an LLM to do that before going to retrieval because end users ask questions in ways that sometimes are, you know, they can be very colloquial, they can vary a lot from person to person, they can be inaccurate. And so putting it through an LLM to sort of like hey, can you summarize this query and canonicalize this query before going to the retrieval model in the RAG stack? And the retrieval models are powerful, but they're a lot less powerful than a modern LLM. So doing that pre-summarization or pre-canonicalization phase has always improved the accuracy of our overall retrieval system, which then in turn enhances the accuracy that the LLM generates at the end. And we very early on realized that we didn't need to run GPT-4 or Claude Opus or something very heavy like that to do that sort of canonicalization piece. So we were using models like GPT-4.1 to do that, which is a model that's pretty, pretty good kind of cost performance trade-off. And we're spending a lot of money on that summarization task. I don't remember exactly, but it could have been like a quarter million dollars a month on just that summarization task. And so when you're at that and now you see, you know, the Qwen models are coming out and the Qwen 3 models are very good. And he's a 14 billion parameter Qwen 3 model. It's really good. And we were able to go and take that model and train that model, post train that model to do that summarization task. and able to replace that and saved almost all of those, you know, several hundred thousand a month on inference just by doing that one thing. And then we get more fine grained control over it. So it's probably a combination of, you know, our product maturing, also the gap between the open weight models and the closed weight models for the specific tasks we were interested in closing. And you know, obviously that the Qwen 3 series of models is an extremely capable and powerful series of open weight models. I think a lot of people are kind of using them in production for those kind of smaller or ancillary tasks.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":6,"time":"10:24","seconds":624,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I'd love to understand more about how you trained these Qwen models to be so effective here. So obviously, we've seen this explosion in open source AI, particularly, I think, DeepSeek has led the way a lot in driving the edge forward. And Alibaba, obviously, with the Qwen models, has done a fantastic job as well, kind of following through there. And it's interesting, I'll say, to see the juxtaposition between open source models coming out of China and then elsewhere, and then how it's just propagating. That's a whole longer topic we can dive into if we have time. But I'd love to understand specifically, okay, how did you take that open weight model and actually tune it to what you needed for your summarization tasks and other tasks it sounds like?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":7,"time":"11:09","seconds":669,"speaker":"Fergal Reid","text":"It's definitely involved. So we work primarily on Amazon, on AWS. And so we use large EC2 instances. I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":8,"time":"11:25","seconds":685,"speaker":"Fergal Reid","text":"think our standard instance at the moment is one node of H by H200. So we got a lot of RAM. I'm dead that's kind of art we have set up we have a kind of an AI in for team that has set up a lot of infrastructure to make it easy for a scientist to log in and to run a distributed training job on those those large gpu's. And, you know, we went through a process here and we started out experimenting with like, you know, Laura and like parameter efficient fine tuning methods like that. And maybe on slot, I think we used a lot at the start. But over time, we sort of invested more and more in this. And now we use, I guess, more distributed training. And most of what we do these days is a combination of full supervised fine-tuning, unquantized supervised fine-tuning. And then for some of the harder things we're doing as well, we use reinforcement learning and we have Models in production that we've trained and we found that and you know a job has worked well for us for some of the things we've been able to do and we've invested a lot in doing things like. Building evaluation models you know we invested a lot in building a resolution model we care a lot about. Has this answer sufficiently resolved the end-user query? We've invested in building a resolution model that does a good job at proxying the real signal we get from an end-user, whether something has been resolved or not. And then we use that as an input into our reinforcement learning setup. And so our reinforcement learning setup now tends to, you know, this is a multi-dimensional setup. One thing is like the resolution model. Another thing is a whole bunch of things we care about in terms of like, are you using like bullet points, the right amount, not too much. How long is your answer? How short is your answer? And we also use other open weight LLMs as judges as well for part of that too. we've a pretty sophisticated reinforcement learning setup. And now, you know, the actual, you know, setting up your objective function and stuff is relatively the smaller part of it. The harder part has been just the infrastructure of, you know, Probably if I look at our investment overall, we have a lot of heads in getting good at running these models at scale on AWS and getting good at that with us putting the bulk of the investment, although both are important.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":9,"time":"14:09","seconds":849,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"But it sounds like the trade-off decision you've made is like, sure, we've added headcount to make sure that we can run this system effectively. But the feeling is that if you were, say, using GPT models still for these same tasks, not only would the model inference be significantly more expensive, Uh, but you'd still would have to be doing this, this fine tuning to, to get what you're doing effectively. So I'm curious what has made Qwen in particular work so well for you. I mean, obviously there's the, the cost perspective. I think that's a huge piece, but it sounds like there are other reasons you're also focusing on the Qwen family.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":10,"time":"14:42","seconds":882,"speaker":"Fergal Reid","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, so the QEM models, I guess we realized pretty early on after the QEM models came out. Firstly, they benchmarked well, but then whenever a model benchmarks well, you've always got to look at it yourself and try it in some of your own bat tests and some of your own evaluations because some people accidentally contaminate the benchmarks or some people just...","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-7-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":11,"time":"15:02","seconds":902,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I would argue it's fairly common.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-7-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":12,"time":"15:04","seconds":904,"speaker":"Fergal Reid","text":"Yes, maybe common. Yeah. And then even people who maybe don't, you know, it's so easy for a researcher or a scientist trying to optimize a benchmark to get good at teaching the model how to do the kind of task that's in the benchmark and then suffer generalization failure. So, you know, we saw the Qwen 3 models and obviously they, you know, a ton of tokens through them. So really generous that they were released open weight because, you know, the large training expense to kind of create them. And then when we back tested them, they worked really well on sort of our standard back tests. And suddenly we were very interested in this because we were like, these seem like legitimately performant models. And then we started to do production tasks of them. And we would always do like, we always like to do a production test of a well-prompted but untrained model before we go and then start post-training for our thing, just to get some sort of a sense of like, hey, roughly how good is this? Is it close to what we're trying to do? And yeah, the Qwen 3 models performed well on our back test for our simpler tasks. And again, Finn still runs Frontier Model and Sonnet 4, I think we're in the process of moving to Sonnet 4 or 5 in production at the moment for the hardest prompts, but for those easier ones, I'm in. All that surrounding stuff we find is a major part of the actual performance of the system. If you look at FIN, FIN is really this cluster of 10 or 15 different problems in machine learning systems. And you know we have improved the resolution rate of fin from launch was about thirty percent now it's it's heading towards seventy and i'm like the vast majority of that improvement has not been in. The core hardest frontier island that has improved and it's been great. But it's been in that surrounding cloud of systems the retrieval model the rank model we built a custom re ranker we built that almost from scratch using modern birth, add our own cost function that's worked really really well and trained on a whole bunch of data and so you know overtime we've getting a percentage point here percentage point there across the tender for any different parts of the system. It really adds up. So, you know, I guess we've been invested in this area for a while. And so, yeah, we were just excited. As open weight models get better and better and we get the ability to fine tune them and control them, we're excited to see if we can turn that into more resolutions.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":13,"time":"17:47","seconds":1067,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I think I should be explicit here since I don't know that we stated this earlier and maybe alluded to it, but FIN is Intercom's fantastic AI agent for all your customer service needs. That's what we're talking about here. And there's quite a bit of information on their website you can find about it. Super interesting stuff. I want to bring up one particular thing you said, Fergal, which is this idea of, you know, when a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure necessarily, Goddard's law. And I think Goddard's law is really interesting here in part because of that contamination issue we alluded to. But I am curious if there are particular benchmarks that you're looking at when you are deciding which models to prioritize. So you mentioned that there's a few of them you look at as well as some internal benchmarking. I'd love to understand a bit more about how you're evaluating these models and what external benchmarks you're using and if you're able to share at all what internal ones.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":14,"time":"18:38","seconds":1118,"speaker":"Fergal Reid","text":"Yeah, so I mean, in terms of external benchmarks, like everybody else, we look at the model cards that release and you get some sort of a sense there, but then you also have to worry about like contamination or people like overfitting to the benchmarks. In terms of internally, we have a suite of back tests that we've curated over time. And it includes things like, every time we have a customer that reports a hallucination, we capture that, and then that goes into our back test. So we have a pretty good suite of real in the wild hallucinations. that we can use and we can basically quickly quantify, hey, in a customer support setting, in a RAG setting, is this model likely to hallucinate or not? We have that and we have a whole bunch of other like quality things. We care a lot about like, you know, how often will the model give an answer to the question? And then we use LLM judges to like, did they get the right answer or not? So we started to build benchmarks and back tests internally like that. But then nothing beats testing in production. We test everything in production. We've done this. This has been our philosophy for years at this point. And what we really care about is like resolutions. And in particular, we tend to run an A-B test in production with a combination. We look at like the soft resolutions and the hard resolutions. And a soft resolution is when Finn has given an answer, thinks the answer is correct, and the end user hasn't said anything, and Finn has said, do you want to talk to a human if you didn't get what you wanted? And the end user has like disappeared and not said anything. We count that as a soft resolution. And that's just going to happen a lot. People will get their answer. It's customer service. They'll go away. They won't bother tanking the bot. But typically about 30 to 40% of the time, whenever you give an answer to an end user, they will do what's called like a hard resolution, which is where they will be like, yep, that has actually resolved my question. They'll say something like, thanks. They say, yes, I got what I want. And that tends to be about 30, 40% of the rate of the soft resolutions. And that's our North Star. That's our ultimate ground truth.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":15,"time":"20:54","seconds":1254,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And are you using that for RLHF?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":16,"time":"20:56","seconds":1256,"speaker":"Fergal Reid","text":"Not directly because it requires a human in the loop and when we're doing RLHF it's offline rather than in production. We don't have an open loop RL in production.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":17,"time":"21:15","seconds":1275,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Be too risky as far as what you're actually getting at back out of it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":18,"time":"21:18","seconds":1278,"speaker":"Fergal Reid","text":"Um, we, we might get there eventually. Um, we, so it just, our workflow is about like, take the model, make the model grade of what you want it to do. And like, that's the context in which we tend to be like tuning these models. So we're like, we're evaluating them on bag tests and then we're taking a release candidate and we're A, B testing that in production. So our, our, our RL is like, I guess, offline RL, you know? Uh, yeah. And.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":19,"time":"21:47","seconds":1307,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I think it's understandable given how broad our dataset is and some of the pieces. I'm just curious.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":20,"time":"21:53","seconds":1313,"speaker":"Fergal Reid","text":"[OVERLAP] I think there probably aren't that many people doing full RL open loop in production. I think","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-15-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":21,"time":"22:00","seconds":1320,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] That's my take","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-15-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":22,"time":"22:00","seconds":1320,"speaker":"Fergal Reid","text":"[OVERLAP] maybe","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-15-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":23,"time":"22:00","seconds":1320,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] as well.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-15-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":24,"time":"22:02","seconds":1322,"speaker":"Fergal Reid","text":"Cursor or someone said they were doing it, which was pretty interesting. It","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":25,"time":"22:06","seconds":1326,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":26,"time":"22:07","seconds":1327,"speaker":"Fergal Reid","text":"makes sense if you've got a very dynamic, fast-moving signal. So this is where you get into boundary algorithms and things like that in the past. If you were running a news site and you were using LLMs to predict who's interested in what news articles, or if you're running the X Twitter, if you're running the recommendation algorithm for that, where it's a very dynamically changing signal, I guess you'd want to do that. For us in customer service, it can change fast. It can change month on month, but not day on day. And so like an offline model training setup is fine for us. We have these other parts of our stack. So like our retrieval model, and we use in-production signals. Our retrieval model is trained very heavily on direct real user feedback, where the real user is like, that resolved my question, and then the retrieval model learns, yep, this sort of article is good at resolving that question. It's a little bit more intermediate, a little bit more complicated for training our LLMs. But yeah, our gold standard has always been those sort of resolutions. And then we always AB test any model before putting it in production. And we check to see that the soft resolutions have gone up, but also that the hard resolutions don't go down, basically. And we need to avoid building a deflection machine. And so checking that the hard resolution rate you know, at least doesn't decrease and ideally increases. Like basically that the ratio of soft to hard resolutions should be roughly constant for every model change. And we've done this for a long time. And, you know, FIN is at significant scale, so we can get very highly statistically powered A-B tests. That's a bit dated now, but just to give you an idea, like when we switched from GPT to Claude Sonnet, you know that was a multi-million end-user interaction A-B test and you know so we're at substantial volume now. Fin is resolving more than a million conversations successfully a week. I think possibly a good bit over that and so we're at enough volume that we can just afford to A-B test in production with real end-user signals and I would say that like That is the gold standard and nothing else comes close in that like every backtest and every evaluation that we've ever built, no matter how carefully we spend on it, it's possible that the grand treat in production deviates from it. And we care a lot about like a 10th of a percentage point of resolution. So like we need very highly statistically powered testing setups in order to do this. And we just find just the weirdest things happen in terms of like, one great example of this is like latency. Like for a long time, we always believed that decreasing latency would be a better end user experience. We still believe that. But we now know that increased latency almost always leads to more resolutions. And you might be like, oh, well, I can understand how it would lead to more deflections, but increased latency tends to lead to more hard resolutions,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":27,"time":"25:30","seconds":1530,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Interesting. OK,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":28,"time":"25:32","seconds":1532,"speaker":"Fergal Reid","text":"[OVERLAP] right?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-19-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":29,"time":"25:32","seconds":1532,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I'd","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-19-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":30,"time":"25:32","seconds":1532,"speaker":"Fergal Reid","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-19-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":31,"time":"25:32","seconds":1532,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] love to unpack that a bit because I really like that you have these kind of two north stars of like we want more hard resolutions, but we also want to ensure we're not losing soft resolutions by doing that. And you keep that ratio. I mean, it must mean that you have. I mean, frankly, I think there's a lot of people listening who maybe are a little jealous of like how strong of a data set you get in production here. So I would love to understand a bit more of, you know, that deflection rate and how that's all coming together.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-19-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":32,"time":"25:57","seconds":1557,"speaker":"Fergal Reid","text":"[OVERLAP] The point of the latency thing is just, it's very unintuitive. You really need to measure in production. You would never build that latency signal, which confounds everything. You would never build that into your backtest, because suddenly, a longer answer might seem like it's got a higher resolution rate. But the reason it's got a higher resolution rate is because there's more latency before you serve it to the end user. More latency may increase the end user's perception of work that the bot","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-19-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":33,"time":"26:24","seconds":1584,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] How","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-19-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":34,"time":"26:24","seconds":1584,"speaker":"Fergal Reid","text":"[OVERLAP] has done.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-19-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":35,"time":"26:24","seconds":1584,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] fascinating.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-19-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":36,"time":"26:25","seconds":1585,"speaker":"Fergal Reid","text":"[OVERLAP] and something you get, you get a lot of confounding. And so over time, you learn to tease out these confounders. But I really think there's two types of AI products. All models are wrong. Some are useful. There's two types of AI product in the world at the moment. One is where it's like we have hand-engineered our prompt with a data scientist to this specific business, this sort of forward-deployed engineering model. And almost everybody's doing that because you get a lot of accuracy quickly with that. And there's a second type of product, which is what we've invested in and we've built in, which is build this scientific system where you don't have to hand engineer it per customer. And if you go down that second route, well, you don't have to hand engineer it per customer. But I think the bit everybody misses is. That means that the system, you now have this scientifically optimizable system that will get better and better over time. Whereas if you branch your prompts and you hand prompt per customer, you can't build this system that gets better and better over time. You just end up with like technical debt. You end up with like a slightly different prompt for every customer. And I think as we all know at this point, Prompts like leak, if you make a change in one part of a prompt, it affects the performance of something somewhere else. And so you really want your prompts to be as standardized as possible, you want your systems to be as standardized as possible, with well-isolated, well-encapsulated different pieces that can be tested separately from each other, but always checking the overall system accuracy. And that's really what we've built, and I really think that over time, People are going to realize you don't want a product that has been built for you by someone just like hand hacking the prompt. It seems great right? On week one it's like oh and I asked for this feature and then suddenly they turned it around. Yeah they did but you're no longer on a standard product. I think everyone would realize that if someone was like you have the sass fender and they made a great product for me they branch the database just for me, i want to be like oh how are they gonna maintain that will they clearly not gonna maintain house and so i think i people have not made that connection yet, but yeah we believe that in the long run and the future belongs to people who are building a products who are doing this sort of like, A standardized, well-designed AI system that then has this level of testing and rigor, and that it improves over time through scientific standardized testing. That is where we are balancing our bets anyway. Hopefully it will work out for us.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-19-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":37,"time":"28:52","seconds":1732,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Thanks to Galileo for sponsoring this episode. Their new 165-page comprehensive guide to mastering multi-agent systems is freely available on their website at galileo.ai and provides you the lens you need to understand when multi-agent systems add value versus single-agent approaches, how to design them efficiently, and how to build reliable systems that work in production. Download it for free at the link in the show description to discover how to continuously improve for your AI agents, identify and avoid common coordination pitfalls, master context engineering for agent collaboration, measure performance with multi-agent metrics, and much more. I'd love to understand how this correlates to your team building strategy and kind of the stages with which you've continued to develop this approach. Obviously, you move from this prompt focus to, you know, a post-training setup. What was the MVP for your post-training? Whereas, you know, where are you today? And how is the team growing alongside of that? Because I think it'll be really informative for other AI leaders who are listening and thinking through, okay, how do I need to scale up my team? How should I be thinking through these stages of enabling, you know, a much more scientific approach?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":38,"time":"30:09","seconds":1809,"speaker":"Fergal Reid","text":"The scientific piece is really cultural and it was in the team from the very start. In a previous role, I once worked for a company called Optimizely, an A-B testing SaaS company, and so I've always sort of believed in A-B testing and experimentation. And, you know, I think we really took that into the AI group. And so, you know, all our scientists will go and will run tests in production very fast and very rapidly and are kind of responsible for checking and making sure. And when we interview, our interview loops always contain a lot about like, you know, randomized control trials, a scientific process. We really want people to chat. We really want people to be coming to the team as scientists who are familiar with the core fundamentals of science. I am because we just we use that day in day out to make a better product for end users and so we ended up with a pretty technical structure in the AI group like the movie skew very tech heavy and our scientists tend to be there mostly applied scientists, and they'll be good at like you know writing prompts they'll typically have a background in machine learning often have a PhD masters in machine learning three to five years industrial work and see a lot of people have come in maybe they've worked in recommender systems things like that in the past where you see a lot of that same sort of testing and mature development process. And then we also have a large cohort of engineers and the engineers are typically backend engineers. We kind of draw about half of them from intercom, half of them are new hires. And hence be our most experienced kind of backend and systems engineers, but who are then kind of like crossing into machine learning and AI as a discipline. So they've learned prompt engineering and we've taught them prompt engineering. And then also, you know, pretty common for them to be able to run an A-B test, interpret the results of that, able to like run a classifier, use scikit-learn to do some NLP stuff or whatever we need to do. Again, as the LLMs get cheaper and cheaper, they become our go-to tool more and more. But yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":39,"time":"32:14","seconds":1934,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] And it also seems like you're doing a lot of context engineering, since I know you invested in REG quite early. Talk","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-21-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":40,"time":"32:19","seconds":1939,"speaker":"Fergal Reid","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-21-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":41,"time":"32:20","seconds":1940,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] to me a bit more about how that factors into this pipeline you've developed.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-21-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":42,"time":"32:24","seconds":1944,"speaker":"Fergal Reid","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, I think we must have been one of the first production RAG deployments. Certainly, we launched on GPT-4 launch day with GPT-4. And it was really like before GPT-4, when you tried to do RAG, it was very difficult to get the previous generation models to actually respect the RAG instructions reliably. So I remember when we launched Finn, I had made this decision to go this rag direction. And we had a whole lot of competitors at the start who were just serving the naked model. And so it'd be like, hey, here's a chat bot and we're just going to ask GPT 3.5 Turbo the answer. And sometimes it would get it right and sometimes it wouldn't. And we were like, oh, this is really a bad product. The business doesn't have any control over it. And I think we've seen people standardize on ride, but we were certainly one of the first kind of production ride deployments. And back in those early days, yeah, context engineering was a huge part of what you did. I mean, it still is, but I guess probably in the first year after FIN launched. So for a lot of 2023, we were really realizing how important it was to assemble the right context and pass it to the LLM. We probably spent a lot of time in early 2024 doing that as well. And we're now at the point where, you know, we have quite a complex, sophisticated pipeline for getting the right context into FIN. This starts with our chunking. We take all the contents that FIN might possibly use, that content is chunked, by LLMs. Then we go and in production we take the query the end user has and as I mentioned we canonicalise that query. Then we have a custom retrieval model. It's a fine-tuned version of Snowflake but fine-tuned on actual production resolution signals. And we have a custom re-ranker model, it's completely custom re-ranker, using modern vert as a building block. And those together are responsible for a lot of the accuracy of FIN. And when we built our custom re-ranker, we outperformed the best Cohere re-ranker at the time, which we were previously using. And we're really happy with that. And that was just because we have, I think, tons of high quality data. of actually has this resolved the query or not and we had to get our customers permission in order to use that and we did comms and stuff where we were like hey if you want to opt out of training here you can but I think you know I It totally makes sense to me as a customer, not like, yeah, of course, a retrieval model, a re-ranker model, there's very little downside participating in that, and that makes the system better. So yeah, all of those things together really feed into this, I guess, this whole system that's responsible for providing, in our case, CloudSonic 3.5, or CloudSonic 4.0, with the right context that we need, and then with a well-engineered prompt. A whole lot of other stuff that goes into that prompt, some of which is customer specific, where the customer has used our product to provide further guidance to it. And that's how Finn generates its answers. And that's how we've been able to get such high quality answers.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-21-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":43,"time":"35:35","seconds":2135,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And as you continue to build out your team over the next year, you're going to get even more human power to support building the system out. Can you talk a bit about the goals you have for taking a next step within? And then conversely, I'd be curious what systemic risks you're seeing that you're paying attention to and trying to avoid from the start.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":44,"time":"35:58","seconds":2158,"speaker":"Fergal Reid","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, the second one is a hard question. It's a fast moving field. In terms of our goals, there's several big initiatives we have. One is we're building something we call a customer agent, which we've publicly announced before, which is essentially that we think that the future here is not that you'll have different agents from different vendors all in the one conversation facing your end user because that's just not going to be a good experience. They're going to like fight with each other. Will the sales agent from one vendor hand off to the customer service agent from the other one? There's going to be substantial overlap in terms of what they do in terms of the systems they need to connect. We also don't see a good future of some orchestrator agent that sits outside them and referees them all. That just feels like a pain. So we really think, we really see a world where to get good experiences, you really want one agent or one set of agents from one vendor. That's like talking to your engineers, one beautifully integrated system. And so that's really what we're trying to build. We call that customer agent. And so that means that we need to build roles for Finn. Finn needs to be able to act. when the conversation is a sales conversation. It needs to be able to act when it's a customer service conversation, as it does today, and probably other things as well, like customer success. It probably needs to be able to act well in the e-commerce setting. And so, you know, that is one area of investment for us. There's the other investments we're continuing to follow through on. We have a pretty mature, thin voice product built using OpenAI's Realtime API. I think we were one of the early customers of that API. Very good API for low latency, high quality. We're now in version 4 of our tasks or procedures product, which is this product that takes actions in external systems. It took us a while to crack that. It was always relatively easy to take actions. Finn from launch back in March 2023 could call APIs. But to really nail the product experience that made it easy for one of our customers to set up actions took a really long time. I feel we've just gotten there really in the last sort of like six to nine months. We're starting to see real adoption and product market fit and people now using Finn where it's like you say something to Finn and it takes an action that like opens a garage door in the real world or something like that. You know, it's it's. It's really quite cool and people using it for very consequential real tasks. So we'll be following through of all those investments. We'll be following through our investment of continuing to invest in, you know, better and better AI models. And again, we've gotten good at post training and it's worked better than we thought. Like you can take an open weight model and if you have enough data and you have the expertise and it's a bit of work. you can get real benefits on your actual task. Again, when we beat Cohera's model at the re-ranking task, and Cohera is a great company, and their model, we had previously done a big evaluation to find what's the best re-ranker we could, and we were using, I think, Cohera's re-rank tree. I'm misremembering the name. I'm there and then we train your own re-ranker from scratch using modern vert. And on a lot of data and then even out of sample even cross customer it because you ranker this task were like wow i like it it be that substantially wrote a blog post on a bit substantially much more so than we expected my wife is a lot of value to. fine-tuning for a specific task or training from scratch for a specific task. And so we still believe that the future is probably vertically integrated AI products. And I think we're starting to see that. Like, I've been using Claude Code with Opus 4.5 recently, and it's just a great experience. And yeah,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-22-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":45,"time":"39:56","seconds":2396,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Oh, completely agreed that the ability for Claude Code to set up its models like I mean, I've used Opus 4.5 with Cursor. It's a good experience, but having it within the Claude Code setup, it just seems to flow so much better.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-22-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":46,"time":"40:10","seconds":2410,"speaker":"Fergal Reid","text":"[OVERLAP] And they are going to have post-trained or mid-trained Opus 4.5 in that harness. And we see this. We basically see there is absolutely a value to vertical integration where the model has been not just prompted, but being post-trained or mid-trained. for the specific application. the exact right trade-off. You end up trying to have a prompt that does a particular task and then you realize it's doing the task wrong so you put a special case in to stop it doing that wrong task and that works fine for a while. Then you're in production for a while, you've got like 50 special cases in your prompt and you're overloading your prompt And you just realize, no, I could like post-train these 50 special cases in and then I wouldn't need to put them in the prompt anymore. My prompt is leaner and lighter. And so there is absolutely a value to that vertical integration. Is the value big enough to like carry it a day and to be the thing that everybody cares about? I don't know, but I do think you're starting to see, you're seeing like people at the model layer, obviously like, you know, thinking machines came out with this like API to kind of, and I think you're going to see, you're going to see lots of people provide more and more interfaces. You're going to see lots of frontier labs providing interfaces to like specialize and fine-tune and post-train, would be my guess, yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-22-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":47,"time":"41:52","seconds":2512,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I think this is also maybe an important point to highlight because one of the common questions in, I guess, the prior era of software is, you know, why can't Google just do this? Why can't Microsoft just do this? And now we're again asking, why can't Google just do this? Why can't OpenAI just do this? You know, what if their model just gets good enough? And the answer I think we're increasingly seeing is, A, there's the unique data set angle of, look, we have this unique data advantage that others don't. Obviously that's been something that's been kind of talked about by the data and AI industry for 10 plus years, but we're really seeing that come to fruition now as models get better and better. But this idea of a vertical stack, a harness belt for your task is clearly starting to differentiate. I mean, you have to stay on top of it. You have to continue to develop it. You can't, you know, rest on your laurels. But it seems like there is a real case for defensibility that is arising with Finn and other, you know, production use cases that have gone far enough down the road.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":48,"time":"42:54","seconds":2574,"speaker":"Fergal Reid","text":"So I'll say a couple of things, I'll speak quite candidly here. I'll say a couple of things. I firstly say that something like clogged code is a case for defensibility and verticalization coming from the model there, right? Which is that like, given that you have the best model, no one else can build a harness that's as good for your model as you can. So","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":49,"time":"43:14","seconds":2594,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-24-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":50,"time":"43:14","seconds":2594,"speaker":"Fergal Reid","text":"[OVERLAP] it's a way of the model layer getting up the stack. And so that's quite strategically threatening if you're not a model layer company. And I've been keeping an eye on Claude Code for a while as an exemplar of this great product. Okay. It doesn't necessarily mean that the vertical integration works the other way around. And so a company like us, we're coming from like up the stack and then we're trying to vertically integrate to get the same defensibility, but coming from the top down. And so like we have been doing stuff like, and you know, I would say we have, we have some real legitimate, durable vertical integration and defensibility in FIN today in","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-24-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":51,"time":"43:54","seconds":2634,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I would agree.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-24-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":52,"time":"43:55","seconds":2635,"speaker":"Fergal Reid","text":"[OVERLAP] that Yeah, in that like, you know, all FIN, like, you know, and I think, you know, we do a lot of tokens in FIN. And when everyone was releasing their tokens recently, we cancelled it off. We had like over 10 trillion tokens of FIN in production. So that's just in production. So we have a lot of tokens. And like, you know, if we can make 30% of those, 50% of those using a lighter model, using our own custom model, cheaper, faster, better, I think it's great, it's real margin, it's real lower latency. And then we have now specific examples where you get better performance than we could possibly get by prompting. So I think we're starting to see it. It's certainly the direction we're bending and I'm bending and I'm bending that like we'll be able to create durable value for us and for our customers by vertically integrating in this way. But weight against that is like, it's the bitter lesson, right? Which is that like, okay, data, How much data do you really need to train the horizontal model? You know, often these things are quadratic. You get like, you know, I don't know, got to go like 10 times up more data to get like, you know, two times more performance or whatever it is. And so, you know, people climb that curve pretty fast","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-24-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":53,"time":"45:07","seconds":2707,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Can I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-24-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":54,"time":"45:08","seconds":2708,"speaker":"Fergal Reid","text":"[OVERLAP] and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-24-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":55,"time":"45:08","seconds":2708,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] just throw a compute at it instead?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-24-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":56,"time":"45:09","seconds":2709,"speaker":"Fergal Reid","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, some of the control computer that are like, you know, you can kind of get enough data to get to diminishing returns and more data pretty fast. You know, we even see that when we do post training with Finn. You need a lot of data, but you don't need like, you know, you don't need billions of data points. You can get pretty far with like tens of millions of data points, basically. And so, you know, so I do think that the large model providers definitely do have a hand to play. And I think a really strong one. And so, yeah, I do think it's possible there's like still a bit or less in dynamics here. But we have a hand to play too. I think like vertically integrating, I think, you know, the open models, like intelligence will saturate for different tasks, like for the right task of, you know, here is a whole lot of data and I give the right answer to that question. You want to need a certain level of intelligence in order to do that you know like i'm a human customer support agent can do it off like i don't know what, hundred iq human or hundred and ten iq human is gonna be like as good as a hundred and forty iq human basically at doing that task maybe better who knows, i'm down is gonna be the same for like the lms like you get to a certain point where like, Yeah, the LLM is intelligent enough to do that specific task. And what matters now is about the expertise, how it's tuned. Is it great at customer service? Has someone gone and tuned it to be absolutely great at customer service? And you can do that with prompting you can get so far. We find you can get a little bit further with post-training. And so I think there's some defensibility there. That's certainly something we're trying to do. We're also trying to go broad. We've got customer agent. We think there's There's going to be a lot of defensibility in terms of building something that is great at not just customer service, but at customer service, at sales, at customer success. I think we can build a unified horizontal agent that we think is legitimately the best in the world at those things. And that feels pretty defensible. I feel like you need a lot of expertise. And then you build a product around that too to make it easy to use through reporting. That feels like a durable offering to us, or at least the best we can get. If someone comes out with a singularity or something, who knows what happens.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-24-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":57,"time":"47:34","seconds":2854,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-24-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":58,"time":"47:34","seconds":2854,"speaker":"Fergal Reid","text":"[OVERLAP] But","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-24-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":59,"time":"47:34","seconds":2854,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] mean, yeah, it's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-24-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":60,"time":"47:35","seconds":2855,"speaker":"Fergal Reid","text":"[OVERLAP] yeah,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-24-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":61,"time":"47:35","seconds":2855,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] hard to plan for that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-24-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":62,"time":"47:36","seconds":2856,"speaker":"Fergal Reid","text":"it's hard to plan for that. But short of that, that's our strategic direction. And we have a lot of validation on the bet so far. So we'll see. We'll see.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":63,"time":"47:46","seconds":2866,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It's a really exciting story and I appreciate you taking me through it kind of from inception to where you are today. It's been a super interesting conversation and I honestly wish we had another half hour, an hour, because I feel like we had three other topics that I'd kind of bullet pointed out as like, oh, we should dive into this too. And, you know, Fergal, you've been so fascinating on the post-training front and data pipelines that I know we're not going to get to everything. But I did want to ask a couple of final questions here because, you know, you brought up Claude Code. I think you and I are both big fans of it. And my understanding is you were the first user of Claude Code at Intercom, and now it's integrated throughout your development pipeline, even, I believe, running autonomously on some bug tickets. Can you tell me a bit about that journey and what made you push for adoption company-wide?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":64,"time":"48:30","seconds":2910,"speaker":"Fergal Reid","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, I don't remember exactly why I started to use Claude Code, but I saw that Anthropic had released this new thing in beta. I checked it out, NPM install, and it really kind of took me out for a week. Every evening after the kids are in bed, I was like, coding, I don't normally do a lot of IC work, I do a little bit but not much but I was like just coding with Claude Code and I was like holy cow this thing is amazing this is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-26-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":65,"time":"49:00","seconds":2940,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] It's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-26-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":66,"time":"49:00","seconds":2940,"speaker":"Fergal Reid","text":"[OVERLAP] like a step","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-26-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":67,"time":"49:00","seconds":2940,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] kind of","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-26-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":68,"time":"49:00","seconds":2940,"speaker":"Fergal Reid","text":"[OVERLAP] change","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-26-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":69,"time":"49:00","seconds":2940,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] joyful.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-26-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":70,"time":"49:01","seconds":2941,"speaker":"Fergal Reid","text":"[OVERLAP] Yeah, it's kind of joyful. It felt magical. And I really, I really spent a lot of time that week, like, you know, awake at night after I was able to code late at night, awake at night, but thinking about the future of the software industry and like how horizontally disruptive it is going to be over time. And, and, you know, I reached out to the Anthropic team and like, you know, I was like slacking them. I was like, this is amazing. You built an amazing product here. And I think they featured me on like, I gave them a quote for the page. I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-26-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":71,"time":"49:30","seconds":2970,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] That's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-26-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":72,"time":"49:30","seconds":2970,"speaker":"Fergal Reid","text":"[OVERLAP] think","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-26-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":73,"time":"49:31","seconds":2971,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] cool.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-26-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":74,"time":"49:31","seconds":2971,"speaker":"Fergal Reid","text":"[OVERLAP] They did something really cool called Code. And I think it's an amazing product. And then when I went internally in Intercom and I did an AI group, all hands, and I was telling people about it, some people laughed at me. They were kind of like, oh, come on, we can do this already in Cursor. And some people thought we were serious. Some people laughed at me. Some people were like, oh, you're getting excited about it, but it's just the same as Cursor. And I think there's a lot of explaining because I know that like Cursor and the other IDs have done a lot of work to become more agentic since then. But like at that point in time, it's like, no, it's it's different that when you put it in like the full auto dangerously skip permissions mode, which is like the only way to use it. on a secure machine, hopefully. But when you do that, you know, it just goes in a way that other things didn't. And so, you know, I kind of had to go and take several people in the company and kind of like call us and install, like install Claude Code into them, like get them to sit down. Here's a laptop. Look at this. Check it out. I did that literally for one or two of the execs. And then that started the ball rolling. Once I kind of aligned those people and showed them the value of it, Intercom started an initiative to try and build a team responsible for taking this. This is going to change our space. Intercom is really good, our CTO and other people are really good at Hey, let's be ambitious. Let's try it. Let's see how much we can get out of this. And so we ended up with a good team of people whose job it is to make intercom engineering faster overall. And then they started taking a role and build agents that live as part of the intercom system, the intercom software engineering system, doing things like automatically attempting to triage and identify the source of an issue when a customer submits an issue. It doesn't always work, but when it's a hit, it maybe saves time on a critical issue where many minutes count in terms of having a great customer experience.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-26-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":75,"time":"51:36","seconds":3096,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"[OVERLAP] Yes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-26-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":76,"time":"51:36","seconds":3096,"speaker":"Fergal Reid","text":"[OVERLAP] So yeah, it's been cool. It's been cool to see. And honestly, it feels like we're still just at the start of these things are going to show up all over software.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-26-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":77,"time":"51:44","seconds":3104,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, I think there's a lot of exciting stuff that's going to happen in the coming years around coding in particular, because we have just such an amazing data set for it with everything that's happened with GitHub. And then obviously, there's so much focus on it. There's even like companies like poolside, which we've previously had the podcast, I highly recommend folks listening to check out that episode with ISO and Jason Warner, the two co founders are talking about how they think code is going to drive AGI, there's a ton of great stuff happening on coding. And I agree, I think Claude Code is really like a magical experience at times. And so it's a wonderful note to end on because I think it hopefully highlights the opportunity and the excitement and what's possible here. And Fergal, thank you so much for spending the time with me today. It's been such a pleasure chatting with you and really appreciate it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":78,"time":"52:29","seconds":3149,"speaker":"Fergal Reid","text":"Real pleasure, Conor. Thanks for having me.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":79,"time":"52:31","seconds":3151,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And for folks who want to find out more about FIN, I believe fin.ai is the best place to go. There's a ton more there. Definitely recommend checking it out. Super interesting stuff that Intercom's doing here. And if you enjoyed this episode, we would love to hear from you, whether it's in the comments on Spotify. Let us know what, you know, should we have asked Virgo questions? We didn't. Should we have dove into topics we didn't cover? Or did you really love something we talked about? We'd love to hear from you. We'd love to know what your experience is like here too, because that customer feedback is also valuable to us. I'm not yet training a model off it, maybe I should be, but I certainly am training my own mental model. So whether it's on YouTube, on Spotify, on LinkedIn, or DMing me on Twitter, or just adding me in publicly even, I'll take it. I would love to hear from you listeners, and thank you so much for joining us today. And Fergal, one more time, I really appreciate it. Thanks for coming on.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen","episode":49,"guid":"c033a9dd-d395-4f35-841f-7566b72ec4b7","episodeTitle":"How Intercom Cut $250K/Month by Ditching GPT for Open Models | Fergal Reid","publishedAt":"2026-02-26","segmentIndex":80,"time":"53:19","seconds":3199,"speaker":"Fergal Reid","text":"that's gone.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/49-how-intercom-cut-250k-month-by-ditching-gpt-for-qwen/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:05","seconds":5,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Welcome back to Chain of Thought, everyone. I am your host, Conor Bronsdon, head of technical Ecosystem at modular. Today's conversation is about something most companies are still struggling with, frankly. How do you actually deploy AI agents to your entire workforce? Not just an elite few, not just your engineers, and do it safely at some company that maybe is regulated, say, a fintech company? My guest today has actually solved that problem and maybe has some hard earned lessons for us. And that is Angie Jones. Angie is a very well known VP of engineering for AI Tools and Enablement at Block. While most companies are still running pilot programs with their developers, Angie and her team actually deployed AI agents to all 12,000 block employees in about eight weeks. It sounds like. And they did it at a company that handles Square and Cash App, where security isn't optional. Angie is also a very popular creator. You'll see her across a variety of channels, and it's one of the crucial minds behind the rise of Model Context Protocol, or MCP, which we've obviously discussed in the show before and after its creation by Anthropic. Bloch became an early advocate and significant adopter of Angie is and I think maybe folks don't know this part. A master inventor with over 25 patents and has been at the forefront alongside block CEO Jack Dorsey, who I'm sure a few folks have heard of, and others of type coding. So in short, Angie is simply one of the best people in the world to talk about the changes happening in software development today in the AI era and is a widely respected leader. We're going to talk about how they pulled off that company wide deployment, the limits of vibe coding, and the benefits as well, what MCP means for AI infrastructure and how they've built governance and guardrails so that 12,000 people can move fast without putting sensitive data at risk. And if we have time, I'm hoping Angie may give us a little demo of goose, which is bloc's open source AI agent Angie. It's a delight to see you. Welcome to Chain of Thought.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":1,"time":"2:02","seconds":122,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"Thanks so much, Conor. Glad to be here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":2,"time":"2:05","seconds":125,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, we're super excited to have this conversation with you because as I mentioned, you've solved a really hard problem. And let's start with that story. And I, as I think it really drives home the scale of what you're doing together with your team. You deployed AI agents to all 12,000 block employees in eight weeks. How did you do it?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":3,"time":"2:24","seconds":144,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"Yeah. Um, there's no playbook for this, Conor.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":4,"time":"2:29","seconds":149,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"Um, so, you know, it wasn't an easy feat, but what happened was one of our, uh, our our engineers, machine learning engineers name is Bradley Axton. He started kind of tinkering around with trying to build a tool that would help automate some developer tasks. Right. And, uh, you know, that was before we were using the terms agents and things like that. But, uh, as Bradley was doing this, he ran into like a couple of problems with, uh, models and, and them being able to do tool calling and things like that. Uh, Anthropic actually, uh, showed us the, the draft of MCP before, uh, they launched it and it was exactly what we needed for, uh, goose, which was built internally by Bradley and a few others. And so we kind of rebuilt goose as an MCP client. We then launched it, uh, as an open source client because, as you mentioned, we focus on finances here at bloc. We have cash and square and, uh, I mean Square and Cash App. Um, but we are no stranger to open source tools. So we have hundreds of open source projects, um, available in this is, uh, one of our later ones. And so as that started making traction, uh, in the tech space, news articles and things like that, I was trending on Twitter. Number one on GitHub. Our internal employees were like, wait, wait, what is this? And why do y'all get to go fast? We want to go fast too, you know? And so they they had a natural curiosity about what what is this. And can it help us. Right. And so we we have built goose as a developer tool. But they just started picking it up everybody. Finance, marketing, sales design, executive assistants. Um, you know there was always this push about, hey, we probably should start looking at how to use AI to do your job better. And once they heard about this agent, it was like, can that be the choice? And so, uh, with that, we stood up all sorts of initiatives to educate people, to provide spaces for them to get help. Uh, we did hands on workshops with different teams where it's not a generic here's AI 101, but it's like, what are you? What do you want to solve for? What are the pain points? And then come up with like custom solutions for those teams and show them how to do that sort of thing with goose as well as MCP servers.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":5,"time":"5:04","seconds":304,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I'm sure there were some challenges in this process. Let's just say, what were some of the things that you had to overcome to be successful?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":6,"time":"5:12","seconds":312,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"Yeah. Um, one is I think definitely the MCP story was new for everyone, right? Like, this is a brand new protocol and I, we all of a sudden and MCP uh, kudos to Anthropic. They did not launch with, you know, the intention of complete ownership over this protocol. Like it's very much so community driven protocol. They launch with a couple of reference implementations. But the community ran with it, and we started seeing thousands of MCP servers that were just built by regular indie developers, right? Um, the problem with that is, yes, we work at, at block, like with financial data and like we can't just be picking up like anybody's random MCP server off of GitHub and installing it on our systems. And so that became a big problem when we initially built goose. We built a few MCP servers that were developer specific. We got to GitHub. You know what I mean? We have things where um, these were meant for engineers. And so now we started getting requests for like, no, I want something with Airtable and Workday and, um, it's Snowflake and Figma and you're like, oh, okay. Okay. So we had to build a whole bunch more MCP servers, um, for, for our, our employees. And then there was also the security risk. So we're dealing with, with, you know, AI agents with models that are in the cloud, like how do we protect, um, our customers as well as our employees while we're using these tools?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":7,"time":"6:57","seconds":417,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And my understanding is you haven't forced the whole team onto a single set of models either. Instead of picking one AI model for everyone, you know, some folks are on GPT, some folks on cloud. How does that break down, and why was that flexibility so critical?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":8,"time":"7:10","seconds":430,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"You know, Conor, no one has won this race yet. Um, in any given week, if you say what's the best model out, it'll be from a different provider, right? And so it would be foolish of us to kind of lock in on one specific one. The other part of that is that they have different strengths, right? And so, uh, Anthropic cloud models are fantastic at software development. So our engineers typically stick there, whereas uh, some of the other job functions that rely more on reasoning for their work might want a GPT model. Right. And so what we've done is we actually work with Databricks, uh, who is providing a model, uh, hosting service. And so with this, we now have a variety of models. So we have, uh, Gemini models from Google. Google. We have the GPT models from OpenAI, the cloud models from Anthropic, and so on. Um, local models are also a fan favorite in some niche, uh, circles in the company.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":9,"time":"8:19","seconds":499,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I was going to ask how much open source models are factoring in, because I've talked to some teams, like I just did a conversation with intercom where I was talking with Fergal Reid, who's their chief, a officer, and he was saying they've really started to use Qwen a lot. And obviously that's for, you know, large production systems, but they're finding some some awesome gains with it and obviously cost savings across a lot of the customer service bots.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":10,"time":"8:40","seconds":520,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"Um.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":11,"time":"8:41","seconds":521,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"For sure.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":12,"time":"8:42","seconds":522,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Are you using open source sports models, more so for like niche areas with employees. Or are you rolling them out to larger production use cases as well?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":13,"time":"8:51","seconds":531,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"Yeah. Um, some some folks do, depending on the hardware you have. Right. And so, uh, with those local like open source models, it requires you to run them on your machine versus in the cloud. Of course, frontier models that are running the cloud, you know, you use their resources instead of yours. And so we found that some of like in order to use some of those local open source models with a genetic software, you need the larger model. So if you have that sort like some of our, our engineers have upgraded their machines to be able to handle that. But I would say that's that's a very small percentage.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":14,"time":"9:33","seconds":573,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Tell me more about the adoption story. Where have you seen success? I I've heard some examples. I talked to your team member, Roselle Scarlet, I think, what, ten months ago now? Uh, fantastic. By the way, I highly recommend anyone who's listening. Check out the interview as well for a little more detail on some of block's open source projects in their approach. But, you know, Rozelle had mentioned 50% time savings on some common tasks. I've heard the same from other block team members. Where are you seeing the gains?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":15,"time":"9:58","seconds":598,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"We definitely with velocity. Um, so that's across the board. Everyone is reporting and there's a variety of use cases. As you can imagine, every job function is different. And so the way they use these tools varies. But I would say the common thread across them is wow, look how much time I saved, how much quicker I was able to do a task, how much faster I was able to ship a feature.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":16,"time":"10:24","seconds":624,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I. Speaking of velocity, I know vibe coding is a common topic for many folks, and you actually wrote a blog post about watching Jack Dorsey Vibe Code, a new feature for goose in two hours. What do you view as the opportunity from Vive coding versus where its limits are. And I guess, what did you observe about the process that you think makes for successful about coding?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":17,"time":"10:49","seconds":649,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"Yeah. Um, you know, Vive coding sometimes get a gets a bad rep, especially in the, the engineering community. Um, some of that is valid, but some of them that I think is a little bit of gatekeeping, like, man, you built an app and you don't know how to code and you feel a little threatened. But, um, I think that's the beauty of, of these systems is that it allows everyone to become a builder. We have people now who, uh, employees may need productivity apps for their team. You were never going to get engineering hours to build this for your team. They're building production software, right. And so you just went without. You couldn't have this. And now we have teams that are like, hey, I vibe coded this thing for my team and that's helping us, right? That's beautiful. Um, I think providing that access to everyone because they can build with natural language now is a wonderful thing. Now I will say, of course, there's some risk in coding, especially if you don't know what you're doing. Right. Um, and so, yeah, you could build a greenfield app like that. That works pretty well, especially when it's like just for you and your friends or your coworkers or something like that. If there's something that you're trying to ship to production, that's where it kind of gets a little hairy. I did a workshop at MIT. It was one hour. I said, hey, we're going to use six sub agents. Um, each of them have a different specialty in one hour, going to build a full stack app. So we had like, uh, an architect and we had a project manager and a, a front end developer, a backend developer, a tester. All of these things. Right. Um, and they built this app in an hour. The last sub agent that we deployed was the the QA. Sub agent, who then ripped the whole thing apart and was like, do not ship this to production. I really wanted them to see that. Like, yes, you have the powers to build this thing, but","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":18,"time":"12:57","seconds":777,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"it's probably not production ready. And it calls out lots of vulnerabilities and things like that that, you know, would not be great if you shipped this to, to the, the Apple and Google stores. You know what I mean?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":19,"time":"13:10","seconds":790,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I love that as a workshop where you're like, yeah, we're gonna build this whole thing, and then I'm gonna tear it apart with a sub agent. So you can understand the risks of this. And I know a lot of what's enabled us has been MCP. And, you know, we talked a little bit briefly at the top of this conversation about it, but block was a launch partner with Anthropic for the model Context protocol. You have helped shape it. You've been one of the largest users in the world of it and have continued to, you know, deepen your engagement there as you've helped shape MCP with Anthropic, what has block and what have you individually pushed for? That wasn't in that initial design?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":20,"time":"13:46","seconds":826,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"Yeah, I think the client side is where we were able to make a lot of the contributions to the protocol. So, um, you know, MCP, we when you hear about it, lots of people are thinking about the MCP servers, the connectors. Um, but you need an agent, which, you know, should be an MCP client that's able to talk to those MCP servers. And so that's because we had goose. Um, we basically rebuilt it as an MCP client. And so we were able to say like, hey, we're not able to do this or this piece is missing, or, uh, it would be really great if this were added to the protocol.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":21,"time":"14:25","seconds":865,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I'd love to maybe walk through a concrete example briefly here. Let's say goose needs to interact with your incident management system. How is MCP going to enable that and what's actually happening under the hood?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":22,"time":"14:38","seconds":878,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"I'm gonna I'm going to take it a step further and do a couple of MCP, because I think that's where MCP really shines, is when you connect multiple systems together to unlock workflows that, like maybe weren't possible before.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":23,"time":"14:53","seconds":893,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So fantastic, let's.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":24,"time":"14:54","seconds":894,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"Do it that we have an incident report that comes in. Right? Um, if we have this also connected to something like a GitHub MCP that can look at the incident report, uh, go ahead, page the human. But while that is going on, simultaneously look at the code base, figure out why this is occurring, maybe even implement a fix. Put up a PR. So by the time I get the page and I log into my system, there's already a PR up for the fix that. Now I just need to review as the human being and press deploy. You know what I mean? And so that's the beauty of like what you get when you connect these various systems together with MCP.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":25,"time":"15:45","seconds":945,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"What do you view as the limitations of MCP that people should be paying attention to? Because obviously there's been criticism as well as well as the excitement.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":26,"time":"15:52","seconds":952,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"What criticisms are there?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":27,"time":"15:54","seconds":954,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Uh, so I've, you know, heard people refer to it as like fancy function calling or having concerns about security.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":28,"time":"16:00","seconds":960,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"Yeah. You know what? There were lots of early concerns, uh, valid concerns about security in the way we did off and things like that. Um, I think that the contributors and the maintainers of the protocol did a beautiful job of, uh, listening to that feedback and addressing it very quickly. And so those things are not huge flags anymore. Um,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":29,"time":"16:28","seconds":988,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"other concerns about, like, the fancy function call. I'm starting to hear that I'm in a lot. I actually wrote a blog post, um, a couple of weeks ago, maybe last week, that says, uh, the title was MCP for developers who think they don't need m.c.p.s. Um.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":30,"time":"16:43","seconds":1003,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Oh, I have to read that. That sounds great.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":31,"time":"16:44","seconds":1004,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"But in it, I, you know, I got into, like, I think people are misunderstanding, like, the power of this protocol. If you're thinking about your local workflow, um, you might say, like, why do I need this? I could use CLI or APIs or whatever. But when you talk about like the, the example I just said with the incident response system connected to your GitHub, um, and all of that kind of unlocking a new workflow that couldn't have happened on your closed machine, right? Like that's not a local problem. Um, the other thing is, I think developers, they sometimes are shortsighted. And you're looking at MCP like, how does this help my developer workflow? Like, I don't think that's the big use case. The use case is what is this unlock for your customers, right. What products could you build by connecting these various applications together and then present that to your your users.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":32,"time":"17:46","seconds":1066,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And obviously we've seen a ton of traction here. And I actually as we're recording this, this episode probably will come up a couple of weeks. But I know yesterday it was announced that block Anthropic, OpenAI, Google, Microsoft, and I believe AWS and Bloomberg are joining forces actually to create this, a genetic AI foundation to accelerate open source development of autonomous AI systems. And I know that includes MCP. So you've got these this cornerstone project to the MCP, which is over 10,000 servers adopted now at this point and has been integrated into cloud, into GPT, into Gemini. Copilot goose is is another cornerstone of that as well. And then also OpenAI's agent stemmed convention, which I believe is used across 40 000 plus open source projects at this point as well. How do you see these major building blocks coming together to set the stage for the. I guess what Carpathia is termed the decade of agents that succumb.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":33,"time":"18:41","seconds":1121,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"Yeah, yeah. I think that this made a pretty, uh, big statement about the necessity for openness as we develop a genetic AI as well as the necessity for standards. And so right now, we're in a global race. You know, everyone you know is building something with AI or AI tools like like I said earlier, like this week, this model is the top one next week. It's a whole different one from a different company. You know what I mean? And so there's this really big race in. Everybody is being really innovative and creative and that's all beautiful. What we don't need is fragmentation as we're doing this work. And so what the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":34,"time":"19:30","seconds":1170,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"f? Um, I gotta I gotta get that rolling off the trunk.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":35,"time":"19:34","seconds":1174,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It doesn't quite roll off the tongue. It's a double.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":36,"time":"19:37","seconds":1177,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"Hit, a roll off. Don't worry, don't worry.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":37,"time":"19:38","seconds":1178,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"You'll get that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":38,"time":"19:38","seconds":1178,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"You'll get it'll get there. Um, but what this foundation does is say, hey, look,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":39,"time":"19:45","seconds":1185,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"the the big, you know, staples of a genetic AI, meaning an agent, uh, a connector to applications and some rules to help all of this work together. Uh, we want to keep that open. We want to have that governed by a neutral body so that no one company, as they're as they're in this race in, you know, they want to win, that they don't get sidetracked with trying to make that, you know, only work for them and, and lock it into their systems. And so I think it's a beautiful moment for, um. Open source. Uh, a beautiful moment for a genetic AI. Uh, I'm really happy to see all of the other companies. Uh, uh, come in and join the foundation as well. I think that's a testament to, uh, the way that we want to see this developed.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":40,"time":"20:43","seconds":1243,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, it's not a zero sum game. There's such an opportunity with these partnerships, and I love to see that open source focus. Obviously, it's something important to us at modular, and I think it's just important to developers around the world to ensure that AI tools in particular, are getting open sourced and agents have have such upside here. And speaking of that upside, I think one of the big promises has been this idea of AI democratization, uh, which I think is trying to balance this project. But also I heard a fascinating story about a bloc employee building their own MCP server and asking where to submit it and then saying, oh, I don't have GitHub, actually, when being told, yeah, that. Just put it on GitHub. You know, I'm not a developer. So I mean, this this kind of story is really where I see that enablement of everyday folks to, to solve those problems. You mentioned earlier where it's like, oh, maybe I'm on a marketing team, I can't get engineering resources, maybe I can vibe code something with with goose to solve my problem. What what are you seeing employees build and how are you enabling that democratization process?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":41,"time":"21:46","seconds":1306,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"Yeah, it's it's it's beautiful to see how empowering, uh, this technology is right for for employees. They're doing things that they may not have been able to do before. And some of this is like, really basic things and some is really advanced. So for example, um, as a, as a, I don't know, let's pick any job function that's not a data analyst. Right. Um, before if I needed data about, let's say I'm a product person or an engineer. Hey, I want to build this feature, but I'm not quite sure about the user data and like how they're using this, this feature and stuff like that. And that would influence how I develop this right now before you would need to like, okay, let me find the data analyst who has access to this stuff. Can you pull me a report? All of that takes a while, right? It might be a week before you get that report. Whereas now with MCP, we can connect to our data stores. And from your favorite, uh, agent, you know, that's MCP compliant, whether that's goose or something else. You can now say, hey, give me like, you know, this data in natural language, right? So that even, um, includes people who don't know SQL or, you know, how to write a database, queries and things like that. Just specify what you want in natural language and you get that information. So that's a simple use case. But we've also seen people build prototypes. Uh, before you would write a document, you're trying to explain all your idea and it's taken forever. And now you got to get buy in and everything. It's much easier to get buy in when you show up with a prototype. This is what it's gonna look like. What? I. You know what I mean? Yeah. Let's poke around it. Let's figure out where it falls down and then. Okay, I'm. So let's go, let's go. Uh, basically, uh, solidify this so that it's ready for production, you know.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":42,"time":"23:47","seconds":1427,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And a lot of our audience are more technical or product team members. They're engineers. They're leaders who are coming from technical backgrounds. But we do have listeners who aren't engineers. And, you know, I would love to maybe give them an insight here on when they want to get started on building their own tools. What do you think the right path for them to take is? How should they get started and actually learn to build an MCP server if they're starting from zero?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":43,"time":"24:11","seconds":1451,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"Yeah. Um, you know, one thing that I think is super underrated and prompting is realizing that you can talk to this system just like you would if you were talking to a teacher or something in the class. Right? And so you can just ask the question, like, people ask me questions sometimes, and I don't want to be that person that like throws them a Google link. But sometimes I want to throw a Google link with, you know, like, here's the prompt to use to ask that exact question to goose. Right? And so you can ask like, how do I like that literal thing? How do I get started using you? Tell me what you love to do. Um, I meet a MCP server. I don't know anything about MCP. Explain it to me and give me a plan on what we can do and build together.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":44,"time":"24:59","seconds":1499,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I love that I I'll say to add to that, one of my favorite things to do when I'm not sure how I should construct a prompt is just ask my model, hey, I'm trying to solve X problem. What kind of prompt do you need? What info do you need? Like okay, help me understand the edges here. And I think a lot of folks maybe don't default to that yet to your point.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":45,"time":"25:19","seconds":1519,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"That's right. That's exactly right.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":46,"time":"25:21","seconds":1521,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So we've been talking a lot about the open source side here. There's a ton of opportunities. Obviously block is doing some incredible work here. But as we mentioned you're also a fintech company. You're dealing with square. You're dealing with cash app transactions. People's money is on the line. Yeah. How do you let 12,000 people use AI agents without risking massive security holes?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":47,"time":"25:42","seconds":1542,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"Yeah. Um, we actually have a really brilliant security experts who work with us very closely. Like, I keep them right here on my hip. Um, and they're very plugged into a genetic AI. I think it's exciting for them. Just like it is for everybody else. Like, oh, wow, new problems to solve, you know, kind of thing. Um, and they, they are very plugged in. In fact, they've written, uh, multiple blog posts and things like that with their findings, um, that were very influential in the early days of MCP. Um been cited all over the place and I think helped direct some of the improvements that we saw in, uh, MCP as far as security. And then they also build guardrails into our AI products to protect our customers from things like prompt injections. Um, they've built some pretty cool features into goose itself that's able to detect, like, if I connect, uh, a malicious MCP server or something like that, it's able to, like, kind of protect me and call that out right away. Um, there's some really tricky things that that folks can do with this stuff, you know, besides the ignore all instructions type of, uh, prompts like, uh, one example I remember our red team, uh, finding was, uh, invisible characters that people could put in, like, these kind of packaged prompts. what do we call recipes? So you make a recipe you want? Like if I want to share a workflow with you, Conor, I can have some, uh, system instructions, uh, a prompt as well as MCP servers kind of all bundled up in this recipe. And I can say here, Conor, here's how you do something. But if I'm a malicious person, I put some invisible characters in there that's like, you know, doing not so nice things on your on your system.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":48,"time":"27:36","seconds":1656,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Maybe it's stealing my data. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":49,"time":"27:38","seconds":1658,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"Yeah, exactly. And so, uh, our security team has been very, uh, involved in, uh, developing solutions to kind of prevent that sort of thing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":50,"time":"27:50","seconds":1670,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Are there particular guardrails that you've seen a lot of success with so far?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":51,"time":"27:53","seconds":1673,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"So one, I think internally, like I said, we build our own MCP servers just to like be super, uh, safe. And we have developed an allowed list of MCP servers, um, within our company. And so if it's not on that allowed list, you cannot use like it will not work. The agent will say nope. Can't install it. Um, and in order to get something on that list, you need to go through security. Who will do a proper review of that? So by far the majority of the. MCP servers on that allow us are the ones that we have built ourselves. But even if I built one, security needs to review it to make sure I didn't miss something. You know what I mean? Um, everything is not intentionally malicious. Sometimes we just don't know, right? Um, and there's only a handful of ones that we accept from, like, uh, an official, uh, corporate, uh, MCP server. But again, our security team, uh, reviews those before it's allowed to go on that allowed list. So I think that's a really good setup for enterprise environments where you don't want your employees. Just, like pulling random, uh, executable code from the internet. You know.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":52,"time":"29:09","seconds":1749,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. And I know MCP lets you define which models can invoke different tools. And so you can actually annotate tools per MCP server per model. How are you leveraging that system to ensure you don't have risk coming in?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":53,"time":"29:25","seconds":1765,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"Yeah. Um, we don't do it at the model level, but we do do it at, um, like rewrite type of level. So like annotating tools that say like this tool is this word is strong, destructive. But that just means, uh, it can change things. It can edit or it can delete or something like that. So helping your agent understand that this is a destructive tool, right? Um, it's really good. And so we've set up, uh, toggles as well in goose that says, hey, um, agent, you're allowed to run any tools that are not destructive. But if you run into one, that is, you need to ask my permission first. Like, give me some insight into what this is, what you're trying to do, and I'll. I'll say yes or no as the human in the loop.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":54,"time":"30:19","seconds":1819,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"What about authentication? What's the approach? Been there.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":55,"time":"30:22","seconds":1822,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"Yeah. So we use OAuth. We have this view. I don't know who did this. Um well I'm sure it's the goose team, but it's beautifully done. Where, uh, we've now connected it to like, our identity provider. And so with our MCP service that we built ourselves, now we can add those sorts of things to it. So when I need to authenticate, it's just like if I were authenticating into something like workday or something on my, on my work system, right. So I get the little whole OAuth flow, like the browser pops up, you know, I do my little, uh, biometric thing and, and I'm in, um, which is great because this was really hard for people. I would say it was a little tedious for engineers, but even outside of engineers, this became really complicated when you were talking about things like API keys and tokens and putting scopes on the tokens and all of that, like that's no one wants to do that. So now we have just toggles toggle it on. You'll get the OAuth flow if necessary. And that's really familiar to people. So it's that's been one friction point that we've ironed out.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":56,"time":"31:31","seconds":1891,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"That's fantastic. And I love that you're giving us all these insights because I think it's going to be really instructive for other engineering leaders listening to this thinking, okay, how can I enable more of my organization, which I think is a challenge for many people. So I really appreciate you diving in and kind of sharing some of those successful patterns. I'm also curious what else you've seen as far as how different teams are using those AI agents. So you mentioned like data analysis is one area where I will admit I absolutely love to have a model write my. My SQL queries. I don't really want to do that myself. Um, but what are you seeing in engineering teams versus data teams versus design product support? What kind of use cases are coming up?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":57,"time":"32:11","seconds":1931,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"It's just very so much I'll try to think of of some good ones. So. Oh, one that I really like is from our fraud detection team. And so they've been able to like connect to our various systems and, and something that would have taken forever if you found it at all, um, being able to detect like suspicious patterns, uh, within transactions and then say like, huh, something fishy is going on with this account. Right. Um, and then you have, of course, the human that goes and actually reviews that. But getting that signal, like really quickly is super helpful and helps us, um, make our, our systems like, stronger and more reliable. Um, let's see what else in engineering. Uh, we have some really cool use cases in engineering where it's not just on your machine. Um, I mean, that's cool. Cogen is cool. Like, all of that is cool. But now we're starting to do things like you can you can do stuff in slack, for example. So now this is again when I start talking about MCP. You can't do this with your little CLI okay. You can't be in slack. Let me tell you a real real scenario. So developer one comes in and says, hey y'all, I think that we have a bug. Uh, it's acting like this. And developer two says, huh? I hadn't seen that, but yeah, it does sound like a bug. Developer three comes in and says, hey, goose adds goose in slack and says, is this a bug? Goose reads the context of the conversation. It's connected with the GitHub MCP goes and looks at that code and says, yep, this is a bug. Here's the snippet of code where that bug lives. They say, oh, wow. Okay, great goose, give us some suggestions on how we might be able to fix that. Goose then comes up with three suggestions with the code implementation right there in slack. Which one y'all like, you know. And so now you have these three developers who are like dev. One said, yeah, like I like option one. Dev two said, yeah, yeah me too. All right goose, go ahead and implement option one. Goose does that. Here's your pull request guys. And this took five minutes right. We don't need to get on a call. We didn't have to open an IDE. Uh, we didn't need to share screens or anything like that. The problem is just resolved. Uh, another one is in our sprint work, so we now have goose, like, embedded in our Jira and our, um, uh, linear projects. Again, the beauty of MCP. So now we can assign tasks to goose in the spring. The first time we did that, goose killed it? Uh. We had a three week sprint by, uh, a little after a week, I'll say midway point.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":58,"time":"35:04","seconds":2104,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"Yeah. Ran out of work, Conor, when the whole sprint was done.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":59,"time":"35:07","seconds":2107,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"A great problem to have. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":60,"time":"35:08","seconds":2108,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"We started pulling in, uh, more tickets. Right. Goose was handling. We had to pull in more tickets twice. You know, so this is the beauty. Uh, and these are the types of things that, uh, I think agents as well as MCP enables us to do.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":61,"time":"35:22","seconds":2122,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I love the agents and slack example in particular, because it's something that's starting to become much more talked about. You know, we've seen Cursor do some stuff there. Obviously goose is doing some really exciting stuff. And then I saw actually that Claude Code is also trying to to take the same approach as well. I'm curious how you think about differentiation and also like partnership because obviously you're you're huge partners with Anthropic. You're doing a lot together with MCP. Um, is this something where you view gooses like complementary to what they're doing with Claude Code, or how do you think about that?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":62,"time":"35:54","seconds":2154,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"The way I think about it is pretty interesting. Um, goose is completely open source. Um, and it's model agnostic as well. So because we're not selling the tokens, um, we're able to say, look, we don't have a dog in the fight. Bring whatever model you want, craft this thing however you want. In fact, goose works with, if you wanted to use goose and say, hey, like, I want you to, uh, delegate a task for your code or, uh, this other task to to open the Codex or this other task to to, uh, Google's Gemini CLI. Like, not a problem. Goose can do all of that. Right. And so it it becomes like this really open, um, un opinionated, uh, agent that you can trust because it's completely open source. We have hundreds of contributors who put they contribute what they want in a generic AI in goose. And so this becomes like the kind of experimental ground of what a generic AI can be. So goose is often the first agent with a given feature, like we're the first ones with MCP UI. Like we were one of the first ones to do multi model flows where hey, within one single workflow, I can switch between, uh, GPT and Claude or whatever in that workflow like we were. We are the ones that introduced this. And mostly that's because of community contributions. And then that's when we start seeing the more frontier agents adopt those patterns because they see it working cuz the community has spoken. So I look at this goose as almost like the microphone for the community and what they want to see, in an AI agent. And with the foundation now goosed becomes the reference implementation for MCP. So when when, uh, the protocol changes and it enhances and updates will test those things out in in goose.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":63,"time":"38:05","seconds":2285,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"You know we've been talking a lot about goose. Do you mind showing us a quick demo. I think that's maybe the best way for folks to understand the approach here. And of course, we'll link to the the GitHub and everything in the show notes as well. Uh.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":64,"time":"38:17","seconds":2297,"speaker":"Speaker 4","text":"Where is goosey?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":65,"time":"38:20","seconds":2300,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"All right, here's goose.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":66,"time":"38:23","seconds":2303,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Wait. I'm sorry. Angie, do you do you refer to goose as goose? Is that your time for goose?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":67,"time":"38:28","seconds":2308,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"Say my my goose. You know.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":68,"time":"38:30","seconds":2310,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I love that. That's adorable.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":69,"time":"38:32","seconds":2312,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"Goose helps me so much, uh, you know, um, so. So what I wanted to show today, there's this really cool, uh, MCP server that, um, is called console of mine. And, uh, I'll tell you what it does. Let me start typing the prompt. But basically we have this problem now, which is a good problem to have because we are I'll just type it out and then we can talk about it. So developer velocity is skyrocketing within our engineering or","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":70,"time":"39:12","seconds":2352,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"thanks to AI assistance.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":71,"time":"39:17","seconds":2357,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"But now we have a new problem code review. Yes, you know it. There are two many hours to review.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":72,"time":"39:31","seconds":2371,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. Oh, man. Uh, yeah. So what I.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":73,"time":"39:34","seconds":2374,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"Do is I want to have the council debate and propose propose a solution that would work in team settings. And I'll tell you, as Bruce works on now, I'll tell you what the console is. So the console is the MCP, uh, server that was uh, like they say, good problem to have, uh, that was developed by, uh, Simon Sichel, who was an employee at block. And this uses a really interesting, uh, underrated feature of the MCP spec. We all know about tools, but it uses something called sampling where the MCP server itself is going to, uh, use the LM, the user's LM, so you can do like really cool stuff on the server side. So let's look at what this thing is doing. So it basically started a debate. It's nine different personas uh, in this NCP server. And so anytime you want like varying opinions, that's one thing about models is like they always seem to agree with you And most times people don't want that. Like I really want. Different perspectives. Right? So I now can force this debate amongst nine different personas and have them vote on the best solution. And so, uh, goose essentially has reworded my prompts here, um, a little bit. The review. Yeah. The review queue is becoming a bottleneck. What solutions would work well in the team settings. And so now like each one of these uh, LMS and again the server is now calling my LMS. So I'm using Claude four five opus. And so that's what uh, the, the server is now borrowing my LLM.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-73","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":74,"time":"41:30","seconds":2490,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"All right. I got a bunch of Claude's having conversation to avoid sycophancy.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-74","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":75,"time":"41:34","seconds":2494,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"Yes. Very good. You sum up very well. Okay, so here's the output, um, of just the debate itself. So now they're voting. So while they vote we can look at this. So it says okay, here's the debate. The council member. So we have the pragmatist that uh, is basically telling us, uh, you don't want to require reinventing your workflow. And then they made a little statement of how they think this should be solved. You have the visionary, right? Um,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-75","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":76,"time":"42:03","seconds":2523,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"what if PR is themselves become obsolete?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-76","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":77,"time":"42:06","seconds":2526,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Oh, man.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-77","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":78,"time":"42:07","seconds":2527,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"Oh, wow. Okay. Very interesting. We have the systems thinker that, uh, is, you know, saying is the goal. Maximum PR is merge or maximum value delivered with acceptable risk. Right. And then we have the optimist here. Uh, and then the devil's advocate is like, should we be generating this much code in the first place? Funny. Um, the mediator, the user advocate. Okay, I love that. And then we have the traditionalist and then also the analyst. So all of them have shared their opinions. And now, uh, the next call that was made was to say, go ahead and vote on this. And so goose is now telling me who the winner is. So the system thinker won. And these each of the personas, they cannot vote on their answer. Right. So they have to vote on one of the answers from someone else. And so it looks like, uh, system stinker. This is a feedback loop problem. Rubber stamping reviews is a dangerous cycle. Ass is the goal. Maximum pairs merge or max value deliver. And then they gave me a nice layered approach that I can then review myself. Take back to the the team. So this gives us a great starting point on a discussion right where we say, hey, we've looked at different views and this is, you know, this is this is the consensus here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-78","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":79,"time":"43:33","seconds":2613,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. It's interesting. And I, I wonder if in this kind of situation to where it looks like we had a break in like three, two and then multiple single votes. Would you potentially go back and say, okay, well you know, I know Systems Thinker one here, but let's compare devil's advocate in systems thinker a little more because we've seen this variety of views. Let's really drill down because we had so many folks who didn't vote for one of these two. How does it break down? I could see that kind of iteration really helping you, uh, workshop an idea. And before you come to a team, say, okay, here's here's how I think we should approach and get more feedback or input.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-79","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":80,"time":"44:06","seconds":2646,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"Exactly, exactly. So I wouldn't just take this and say, yep. All right. Great. Thanks. I'm going to run with that. But I.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-80","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":81,"time":"44:12","seconds":2652,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Remember.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-81","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":82,"time":"44:14","seconds":2654,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"I would review like each one of their, their perspectives, and I would see which one I align with. You know, um, and then having like the three votes I would consider that like, okay, I'm outnumbered because what if I was like with the visionary, right. You know, um, I would say I'm outnumbered. And then I would consider like, why that is. And if that changes my perspective at.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-82","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":83,"time":"44:35","seconds":2675,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"All, I love that, Uh, really, really interesting. Um, how did this come up as an idea for something to build?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-83","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":84,"time":"44:42","seconds":2682,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"Yeah. Um, I don't know what Simon was thinking, but it's. He's super creative, and, uh, he loves, like, tinkering with AI tools. I would imagine if I had to guess, Simon probably wanted to explore sampling and MCP. Um, which is, like I said, this is a super underrated, um, feature of the spec that I don't think a lot of MCP servers use, and definitely not a lot of MCP clients support. Again, who's, uh, leads the pack and support sampling. And so he probably wanted to come up with a creative way to use it. And this is definitely one because most, most use cases you would just use it like in a one call kind of thing. Um, this is nine different calls. The first time, nine calls again, the second time. That's 18 calls. Um, and so that's a lot of sampling of your, your, your LLM. So I bet he just wanted to kind of stretch and see how far he could go with that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-84","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":85,"time":"45:47","seconds":2747,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So what's next for goose? What are you building that you're excited about? What's the future?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-85","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":86,"time":"45:53","seconds":2753,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"Yeah. Um, I'm really excited to see what comes out of the foundation. Um, I got a lot of questions from the community when we announced, uh, the foundation, and they were like, wait, are y'all still going to be working on it? Because we like you all, and it's like, yeah, we are. So, uh, this gives us a nice neutral governance body, but the day to day work will still be done by, you know, the people on the ground. And so we're not going anywhere. We'll, we'll still be here and, uh, advancing goose. But yeah, we're doing all sorts of cool things right now. Uh, what I showed you all was a desktop application of goose for goose is also available as a CLI. What's missing, though, is the ID piece. So people want to bring goose into their their IDs. And you can by using the terminal part of your ID. But if you wanted more of a visual aspect, we've just recently implemented Acpi, which is another protocol that will allow goose to be used within IDs. And so so far JetBrains has announced this week their support. So goose works there now and JetBrains IDs as well as Zed. So Zed I think kind of was a pioneer in in this ACP space. Um, other like lots of cool things. So we we have this grant program as well for contributors where there's no limit to the number of contributors will accept, but we give you $100,000 a year to work on innovative things in the goose ecosystem. And so that program, people would essentially apply with their ideas. And then we. We have a couple of discussions with them, uh, to see if it's if it's a good fit and if so, then, yeah, well, we'll pay you, uh, in monthly payments, um, to, to to do open source work.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-86","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":87,"time":"47:47","seconds":2867,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"That's really cool. I love to see the energy going around goose and the collaborations for folks who want to go get started. Where is the best place to try out goose?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-87","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":88,"time":"47:57","seconds":2877,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"Yeah. So you'll want to go to in this website. Might change by time, uh, by the time this airs. But, uh, you will we'll have a redirect. Right. So you want to go to block GitHub? Oh.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-88","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":89,"time":"48:15","seconds":2895,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Perfect. Uh, well, Angie, thank you for a fantastic discussion. It's been so good catching up with you, and you've shared a ton of great insights within already an action packed episode, and I really appreciate you walking us through a demo as well. So it's a ton of fun.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-89","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":90,"time":"48:27","seconds":2907,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"Of course. Thank you so much for having me, Conor.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-90","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":91,"time":"48:30","seconds":2910,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"My pleasure. And I'll say a shout out. Angie's blog. Her LinkedIn. Your X account as well. Where? Where else can folks find you on the internet?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-91","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":92,"time":"48:39","seconds":2919,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"Yeah, if you go to Angie Jones tech. Um, I have all my social channels there. Uh, so YouTube and in, uh, I'm getting back to blogging too. I mean, I have so much I want to share, and so I've been blogging a lot lately as well. And you can find all of that on my website.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-92","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":93,"time":"48:58","seconds":2938,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Amazing. Well, Angie, thank you again for joining us on the show. It's been a ton of fun. And to our listeners, if you try out goose, we would love to hear what you think, what you build, uh, what your thoughts are, you know, drop a comment on this episode or on LinkedIn, shoot us a message. Take us in a post. We love to hear how you're experimenting with everything we talk about and your thoughts on these episodes. And you know what? If you really love the conversation, what really helps the show is a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or on Spotify. we'd appreciate it a ton. But more than that, Angie, really appreciate you coming on. Thank you so much.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-93","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":94,"time":"49:32","seconds":2972,"speaker":"Angie Jones","text":"All right.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-94","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":95,"time":"49:32","seconds":2972,"speaker":"Speaker 4","text":"Take care.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-95","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones","episode":48,"guid":"7ed7a4c5-7b26-47fe-afe4-d75f9b5bdaf8","episodeTitle":"How Block Deployed AI Agents to 12,000 Employees in 8 Weeks w/ MCP | Angie Jones","publishedAt":"2026-01-21","segmentIndex":96,"time":"49:33","seconds":2973,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Thanks to Galileo for sponsoring this episode. Their new 165 page comprehensive guide to mastering multi-agent systems is freely available on their website at Cal AI, and provides you the lens you need to understand when multi-agent systems add value versus single agent approaches, how to design them efficiently, and how to build reliable systems that work in production. Download it for free at the link in the show description. Discover how to continuously improve your AI agents. Identify and avoid common coordination pitfalls. Master context engineering for agent collaboration. Measure performance with multi-agent metrics and much more.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/48-how-block-deployed-ai-agents-to-12-000-employees-in-8-weeks-w-mcp-angie-jones/#t-96","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:06","seconds":6,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Back to Chain of Thought, everyone. I am your host, Conor Bronsdon, head of technical ecosystem at Modular. And I'm delighted to be joined today by Paige Bailey. Paige is the AI developer relations lead at Google DeepMind, which maybe a few of you have heard of, and has had one of the most interesting careers in AI. She started as a geophysicist at Chevron, become a developer advocate at Microsoft and Google,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:28","seconds":28,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"helped ship GitHub Copilot as a principal PM, led product for Gemini, is a huge fan of open source, which I'd love to talk to her about, developer tools, and much more. Paige now runs developer experience for DeepMind's entire AI platform. And in the past couple of months alone, her team has launched, what, Gemini three, the anti gravity, Google's new IDE. They've released what they've called the largest open source interoperability","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":2,"time":"0:53","seconds":53,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"tool kit ever and has also found time to build a gamified NASA curriculum using AI Studio, which I'm hoping she'll show off.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:01","seconds":61,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So, Paige, welcome, Chain of Thought. Where are joining us from?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":4,"time":"1:02","seconds":62,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"I am, joining from Texas. I'm here for the holiday season visiting some family and then also taking in probably too much barbecue, if there is such a thing. But it's, it's beautiful weather out here. I are you based on the West Coast?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":5,"time":"1:18","seconds":78,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I am in Seattle, and it is a little less beautiful here. We've had an atmospheric river coming through. Thank god. Our house is not flooding like some folks. Very thankful for that. But Yeah. Definitely a a little less, sunny than I expected it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":6,"time":"1:30","seconds":90,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"Yep.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":7,"time":"1:32","seconds":92,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"Awesome. Well, thank you so much for having me. I'm also a huge fan of the team over at Modular. I think y'all got all of the or most of the machine learning compilers contingent. So, Chris and Tim are are good friends and worked closely with them on the,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":8,"time":"1:47","seconds":107,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"TensorFlow and kind of the early days of many of the machine learning frameworks and compilers at Google.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":9,"time":"1:52","seconds":112,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. I'm excited to see what the future holds because I think the the team here at Modular is is really excited to keep building alongside the incredible innovation that the whole team at Google is doing. And I will I will note here, this is, as we're recording, this is the start of week four for me. So I'm still very new, figuring things out, but, having a lot of fun with it for sure. It's it's pretty incredible seeing what,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":10,"time":"2:14","seconds":134,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"you and Chris and Tim and everyone else involved have built over the years. And now seeing the results of that come to fruition with, you know, Gemini really taking center stage among the the grouping of frontier models, the variety of product releases Google's done. I mean, even just some of the interesting stuff that's happening with agents within Google products. Like I talked to the Google Shopping team a little while ago,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":11,"time":"2:40","seconds":160,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and some of the new agents they have that can track prices for you and help you identify when you want to purchase an item, or even call a business to get, answer questions answered like, hey, do you have the right type of guitars I'm looking for? What are your hours? It's really cool to see how Google is, collectively throughout the entire product strategy, beginning to integrate agents, to integrate Gemini within the product suite.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":12,"time":"3:02","seconds":182,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And you've been a big part of that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":13,"time":"3:04","seconds":184,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"Yeah. Well, it's it's a huge, huge team effort all over Google. I've been I've been really excited to see, you know, tools like Joules for asynchronous agent work, Gemini CLI, which is is more about kind of synchronous operations. So you're working with the agent in real time in order to to accomplish various tasks within the terminal, and then also, of course, anti gravity.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":14,"time":"3:28","seconds":208,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"And it's been really especially cool. Let me pull this up just","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":15,"time":"3:33","seconds":213,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"just a second.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":16,"time":"3:33","seconds":213,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I will note briefly for anyone who is listening to this, Paige is gonna be sharing a variety of things from her screen. So I recommend either trying to watch on Spotify video or YouTube if you can just to get a a little more discussion since we're gonna be showcasing a few things.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":17,"time":"3:48","seconds":228,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"Absolutely. And so so this the first thing that I pulled up is is basically our our overview of Gemini three Flash. So this is one of our latest kind of big releases.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":18,"time":"3:59","seconds":239,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"Flash is the companion for Gemini three Pro and is even better at Gemini three Pro at a variety of use cases, specifically things like being able to operate a browser, many of the capabilities that you might expect out of a Gentex systems. But one of the things that I'm most excited about is this kind of Pareto curve that we see here on the screen. For folks who haven't seen this before or who might be listening along,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":19,"time":"4:27","seconds":267,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"it's basically a chart showing that the the capabilities to cost performance for the Gemini three Flash and Gemini three Pro series are pretty pretty much blazing a path for for frontier models in general. And that's one of the things that I love most about Google is that we're we're very good at making things go very fast and very cheaply so they can scale out to billions and billions of users.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":20,"time":"4:53","seconds":293,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I was listening to,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":21,"time":"4:56","seconds":296,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"some of the Acquired episodes recently that are covering Google, and there's, I mean, listeners who who followed me for while know that Acquired is one my favorite podcasts. They do incredible storytelling. And one of the the early conversations there is about the differences between how Google built its first data centers, which were, they were not going for shiny machinery. They were going performance. Like, how much performance could we fit into a square foot? We really need to optimize for this. And I think that ethos has carried through with Google,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":22,"time":"5:25","seconds":325,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I mean, for for decades now. And part of that is some of the early engineers who were helping build that. People like Jeff Dean have been here a long time and are, having major impacts on the culture, part of it simply, like, the the talent being recruited. But but I am really continually impressed by how Google has kind of stepped up within the AI race and obviously has been a research leader for a long time.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":23,"time":"5:48","seconds":348,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"What do you see as the way developers should be thinking about the different models that Google's offering? So, you know, you've got three Pro, you've got three Flash. You've gotta get obviously, you still have the 2.5 models, and then there's also open source work that's being done. What are the considerations that should be in the heads of developers as they think through, like, hey, I'm building something.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":24,"time":"6:08","seconds":368,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Which model should I be using? What are the pros and cons?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":25,"time":"6:10","seconds":370,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"Oh, that's such a juicy question. So, and we can show a couple of demos for this in just a second. Gemini three Pro, obviously, our flagship model. It has thinking baked in, which means that the answers you're going to get are probably going to be much more fully expressed, but they'll probably take a a lot longer to get you the answer that you're hoping for","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":26,"time":"6:33","seconds":393,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"due to to kind of all of the the thinking tokens as well as it's just a much larger model. And it also comes at a much higher price point than something like Gemini three Flash, which does give you the ability to turn on thinking, but comes at a significant discount compared to Gemini three Pro. And I think I saw yep. So so this is the input price comparison","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":27,"time":"6:57","seconds":417,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"between Gemini three Flash and Gemini three Pro. For folks who can't see, the input is about 25% of what you would expect to pay for Gemini three Pro, even a little bit lower if you have significant number of tokens in your context window for inputs. And then the output is also significantly less expensive, just coming in at about 25%. But if we kind of zoom out,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":28,"time":"7:26","seconds":446,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"I'm gonna head over to AI Studio real quick. So let me go ahead and share a different window so we can see the AI Studio interface. This is for folks who are unfamiliar or uninitiated, I suppose, this is the place where all of the latest DeepMind models get released. You can test them out. You can try them out. We even have something called compare mode up here on the right.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":29,"time":"7:53","seconds":473,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"It looks like two little arrows pointing at each other. And so if I click compare mode, I select Gemini three Pro preview. I select the Gemini three flash preview, and maybe I turn off thinking. So I'm going to make thinking level minimal. Thinking level is high by default using the the Gemini three Pro model. And then we can ask something ask something like,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":30,"time":"8:20","seconds":500,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"please write a Python function to give me the lat long coordinates of a given city. And then hit run. You can see that the two different models kind of take a little bit of time to little bit of time to think. But Gemini three Pro is still thinking. Gemini three Flash got its answer very, very quickly. And when you look at the Python that's returned, it's more or less the same thing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":31,"time":"9:02","seconds":542,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"So there isn't an example usage, but but you can see there are sources cited. They're both incorporating GeoPy. They both basically have the same Python code. This just got you the answer in, like, one tenth of the time.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":32,"time":"9:18","seconds":558,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Well, and, crucially, there's a difference in tokens used as well.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":33,"time":"9:21","seconds":561,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"Absolutely. Because you aren't using all of the intermediate thinking tokens.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":34,"time":"9:25","seconds":565,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"And I love that when you hover over the tokens in this compare mode or in AI Studio in general, you can see kind of the input cost, the output cost, and the total cost. And it's coming in at less than a penny in order to do in order to do this work for Gemini three Flash.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":35,"time":"9:42","seconds":582,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I think this is part of where Google's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":36,"time":"9:45","seconds":585,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"hardware advantage, frankly, really comes into play too. The fact that I mean, we talked very briefly about TensorFlow earlier, but, I mean, the fact that TPUs are what powers Google architecture, and it it's a vertical stack from hardware on up compared to most competitors that are largely building off of NVIDIA GPUs. Mhmm. There are limits to the optimizations you can do when you are using someone else's stack compared to something you've you've built from the ground up yourself for performance in mind.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":37,"time":"10:17","seconds":617,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"Yeah. Absolutely. And I and I think it's actually funny to remember because when TensorFlow was first released or at least first open sourced, which was way back in kind of November, December time frame of 2015, the when it was first released, it only had CPU support. So it was it was really intended to be doing machine learning at scale, but across clusters of CPUs.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":38,"time":"10:43","seconds":643,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"Not GPUs, not TPUs. And then all of the the the kind of different back end support was was effectively retrofitted. So you had different code paths to use CUDA implementations, to use XLA as the target compiler, which would interface with TPUs, ultimately. And then really, the the thing that was really built around XLA is JAKs, which is what we use in production and in in all of our research work and have for a a very, very long time.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":39,"time":"11:19","seconds":679,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"And I think part of the reason, to your point, why people love JAX so much other than JAX being just like a friendly NumPy like interface to do work is because it can use TPUs so optimally. And you can scale out not just to a single TPU, but also many, many t use all at once, even across multiple data centers, which is what we need for when we train the Gemini models.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":40,"time":"11:46","seconds":706,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And you mentioned research, and I think this is a interesting area because Google increasingly has had a a larger share of what's happening at major conferences like NeurIPS, which I know you were recently at the 2025 edition. Yep. I'm curious what your takeaways have been about how Gemini and Google's broader AI ecosystem are penetrating the research sphere, not only from internal folks at Google, but also","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":41,"time":"12:10","seconds":730,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"the perspectives you're seeing externally?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":42,"time":"12:13","seconds":733,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"Yeah. So so I I I feel so fortunate. Like, we have we've had Jeff Dean for so long, and he's been, like, the the biggest champion you can imagine of research and of kind of helping grow the academic community as well as the applied machine learning community and also open source. So he he and Jeff Hinton actually just had a talk. It was sponsored by Radical Ventures.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":43,"time":"12:42","seconds":762,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"Let me see if I can pull this up really quick. But they they gave they gave a talk at, and I'm going to pull up that pull up that really, really quickly so we can see it. The collaboration that built modern AI, Jeff Hinton and Jeff Dean in conversation with Jordan Jacobs. I strongly, strongly recommend this if you're in need of if you're in need of a podcast or or something similar","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":44,"time":"13:13","seconds":793,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"to listen to this weekend or Finishes this episode first, to be clear.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":45,"time":"13:15","seconds":795,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Follow on. Follow on.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":46,"time":"13:18","seconds":798,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"Absolutely.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":47,"time":"13:20","seconds":800,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"And and but it it talks through everything from like, I remember Brain in the early days was it felt so close knit. Like, you could walk around the hall and see pretty much everybody. And, like, you know, Gnome and the Transformers team and everybody was just kind of, you know, all working very, very closely together. But this walks through so many of the anecdotes of Brain in the early days of what it felt like to work","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":48,"time":"13:47","seconds":827,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"on TensorFlow and on some of the machine learning frameworks when they were just released. And then it also touches on kind of the the launch of the Gemini program. And Jeff was really the one that was, you know, pushing in the direction of DeepMind and Google needing to collaborate and to join forces.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":49,"time":"14:06","seconds":846,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"So it's it's just such a good thing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":50,"time":"14:07","seconds":847,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And collectively, you've been along for, what, six years of that ride now at this point?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":51,"time":"14:13","seconds":853,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"Longer longer than that. So I the I joined Google Brain in 2017, 2018.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":52,"time":"14:18","seconds":858,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Oh, wow. Okay.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":53,"time":"14:19","seconds":859,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"And then and then spent a year away at GitHub helping with machine learning features in Versus Code and some of the early, like, user experience work for for Copilot. But but it's been a wild and very exciting ride. Like, really, really enjoy really, really enjoy both DeepMind and then, of course, love, love, love the time at Brain.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":54,"time":"14:40","seconds":880,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I would love to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":55,"time":"14:43","seconds":883,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"get your thoughts on the the obvious change there where I mean, it used to be that Google had these differentiated teams that were working on different AI projects before it came together. And I think it's really clear externally that there's been massive gains from combining that brainpower, Google and and Unincent. Enabling focus. Yeah. That was intended. I and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":56,"time":"15:07","seconds":907,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I'm just curious from your perspective, having kind of been on both sides of that, where you've seen the team improvements. Because, I mean, externally looking in, that is a a huge improvement that Google has made just structurally to enable a lot of the innovation happening today, like antigravities and other things.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":57,"time":"15:24","seconds":924,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"Oh, absolutely. Like, I I think that it makes perfect sense that we were able to join forces, and then obviously, the organization has just grown","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":58,"time":"15:33","seconds":933,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"so much. Like, I'm I'm not sure I'm not sure if this has been mentioned externally, but, like, the Palm two model, as an example, which was a precursor to Gemini, I think the the team that was building it was really, like, 40 people, 42 ish people. So super, super small. It was like, myself is, like, a 20% assignment, and then it had a 20% PM or TPM, Erica Marrera,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":59,"time":"16:03","seconds":963,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"but super, super tiny. And now when you think about the size of the Gemini effort, you know, you need multiple pages to just include the names of all of the team. And and so I I think it's just a kind of a a difference in scaling from zero to one and one to 10 and then 10 to to many, many more. And I I think it's absolutely been for the best in terms of, you know, making it possible for us to build these great models and making it possible for us to accelerate them into production.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":60,"time":"16:34","seconds":994,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"But it's just very much a different a different style of vibe. Maybe a little bit like moving from an early stage startup to a to a later stage startup.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":61,"time":"16:43","seconds":1003,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"That's a great comparison.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":62,"time":"16:45","seconds":1005,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And it's also enabled Google to, as we've mentioned, put Gemini and AI powered, enablement into so many Google products that are already either seeing massive growth. I mean, we can look at Chrome where I've got this little Gemini app at the corner for me to leverage. You can look at the Google Workspace product, obviously, and the new abilities to agents within it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":63,"time":"17:07","seconds":1027,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And then you can also look at new products like anti gravity, the IDE, the agentic IDE that Google has developed, post Windsurf acquisition. And I'd love to get your thoughts on how you see developers working with anti gravity in the coming months and and hopefully years. And then also, an interesting point of the strategy around anti gravity, which is that it's not only Google models you can use within anti gravity. My understanding is you can also use open AI and Anthropic models as well. And so would love your thoughts on on that piece,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":64,"time":"17:40","seconds":1060,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"especially as it relates to I mean, are all closed source models, but this this idea of, like, openness within AI.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":65,"time":"17:46","seconds":1066,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"Yep. Absolutely. So I and that's also a a very nice segue to the to the last thing that I'll that I'll point out in in terms of pricing for our models. But I I feel like this is a much a much underutilized aspect of our APIs. We don't offer the Gemma models within AI Studio, but it is available in our APIs. So if you don't want to download the the Gemma three or three n models and use them","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":66,"time":"18:17","seconds":1097,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"use them locally, you can use them free of charge via the Gemini APIs in AI Studio. Like, a i.google.dev","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":67,"time":"18:26","seconds":1106,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"is the URL that you can go to to get access to. And to use them, all you have to do is toggle out the model name.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":68,"time":"18:31","seconds":1111,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I feel like a lot of folks don't know that much about Gemma, frankly, either. I mean, and it sounds so similar, Gemini Gemma, but Gemma being this collection of lightweight open source models that Google has released. Yep.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":69,"time":"18:42","seconds":1122,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"Absolutely. So Gemma three is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":70,"time":"18:45","seconds":1125,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"an Gemma three is our latest open model family. Gemma 3N is 4,000,000,000 parameters in size, though there are some other variants, so 1,000,000,000, 2,000,000,000 parameters, small enough to fit within a browser. But they're super, super fast, very speedy, comparatively, comparatively strong performance. Gemma three is 27,000,000,000 parameters in size. And if you need to do things like summarization","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":71,"time":"19:16","seconds":1156,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"or, basic translation between one language to another or, a kind of categorization, things like toxicity detection, the Gemma three family is very, very strong as a choice. And, again, like, since they're free tier, relatively fast, available via the API, I would strongly suggest think about thinking about using some of those for the for the lighter weight tasks that you might be you might be experiencing","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":72,"time":"19:49","seconds":1189,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"with the the Gemini the Gemini models. And they are built on many of the same research ideas. Though the expectation is that the Gemma model family will always be kind of smaller in size and not kind of the the same frontier capabilities that you would get with the Gemini models.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":73,"time":"20:06","seconds":1206,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So particularly when it relates to coding tasks, and this agent enabled IDE that is anti gravity, which I'll note, you know, has some really cool capabilities. You know, folks on this show know that I'm a a Claude Code fan, but I I really enjoyed some of the approaches anti gravity has taken around how you can actually work through examples and the engagement with Chrome and how that's been integrated.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-73","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":74,"time":"20:34","seconds":1234,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I'd love to just understand I mean, I I know you have a great example of, like, what you've built with it lately, but how do you approach using anti gravity? And, like, what are the recommendations you have to developers who are looking to explore?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-74","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":75,"time":"20:47","seconds":1247,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"Yeah. So so anti gravity is our latest agent first IDE that's been released by by some of the team who came over from from Windsurf. This is I I've got kind of one of my favorite extensions pulled up here on the right where you can see the different utilization that you have for the the different models. As you mentioned, there's Gemini Flash, Gemini Pro, and then also","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-75","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":76,"time":"21:13","seconds":1273,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"some of the Anthropic model family that you can use as part of your work. You can also select the different models here off to the right to incorporate into into your projects. And for this one, I was just doing kind of a a basic walkthrough where you can ask anti gravity to to build kind of a step by step workflow for for any app that you wanna stress test. So you can say, like, accomplish this task within the website and then periodically take a screenshot and and do the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-76","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":77,"time":"21:46","seconds":1306,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"do the walk through for me. It will also give you the ability to to kind of comment on on any of the the plans that it makes. So just like you would comment in a Google Doc, you can say, okay. This plan shouldn't be using LiveKit. It should be using something else, or it should be using kind of not just video and audio, but also maybe some other things. And then","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-77","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":78,"time":"22:13","seconds":1333,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"each one of these are capable of of being kind of modified and stress tested. And like you said, you can even invoke a Chrome browser in order to accomplish many of these tasks. So if you did want to to say something like, go through and on rei.com, like, try out 10 of the of the top user journeys that you think would be most important, and then give me feedback on each of them.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-78","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":79,"time":"22:43","seconds":1363,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"It would be able to do kind of like poor man's QA testing in a in a really seamless way that's directly baked into your IDE. So lots and lots of good work happening in the IDE space for antigravity. You can also incorporate the Gemini CLI, just invoke it within a terminal. And and Joules as well can be invoked via Joules So the the Jules agent, for folks who haven't seen it, I'll go ahead and pull it up on my screen.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-79","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":80,"time":"23:20","seconds":1400,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"The Jules is intended to be an asynchronous agent. So if you work a lot in if you work a lot in GitHub, this is something that allows you to pull up your GitHub repo, kind of describe describe some changes that you would like to see, maybe some documentation that you would like to add. And then Jules will do the task of of baking that in for you. So you can select different repos and then just ask for for any of the any of the changes that you might make.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-80","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":81,"time":"23:53","seconds":1433,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I'll I'll say these aren't the only dev tools Google has put out, obviously. Like, I've really enjoyed the,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-81","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":82,"time":"24:00","seconds":1440,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"the Chrome dev tools, MCP that, Google has released as well. And it's it's interesting to see how these different protocols and approaches are, you know, collaborating. Obvious obviously, like, MCP by originally by Anthropic has really blown up, I think been integrated into a lot of approaches. It's cool to see CLI just just being leveraged a lot more here and and the growth of the Gemini CLI.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-82","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":83,"time":"24:23","seconds":1463,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And then Google is always taking this, like, very agent first approach. What are your thoughts about how you see development happening within the Google ecosystem around building with agents and and building with these new tools that are accessible to developers.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-83","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":84,"time":"24:39","seconds":1479,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"Yeah. The the hardest thing is, I think, trying to navigate which ones to use and when. The the and and that's or at least that that feels just just coming at it from a user's perspective that, you know, given that there are so many different lovely things to choose from, how do you select which one for for your specific tasks? I think that if you're more of a fan of an IDE, like if you're a Cursor user, if you're someone who really, really likes having that that kind of immersive support, anti gravity is absolutely","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-84","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":85,"time":"25:11","seconds":1511,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"the place that you you might want to go. I also really, really love RootCode and Klein, which are two open source Versus Code extensions that you can use with Gemini, and they also incorporate agents. So if you want if you want something that's a little bit more open that you can kind of hack on and tweak and change, those are also two great options. If you if you enjoy working in a terminal,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-85","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":86,"time":"25:38","seconds":1538,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"so so maybe you're more of like a a Claude code enthusiast, then Gemini CLI is probably the place to go. And if you just want something that you can invoke kind of similar to maybe a GitHub action or, you know, something that you can just tag into a GitHub issue, then I I think Jules is a is a solid option. Joules is really intended to work in the background while you do other things,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-86","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":87,"time":"26:05","seconds":1565,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"whereas Gemini CLI is intended to be something that you work with in real time, and so is so is the anti gravity IDE. Like, really launching, you know, launching browser windows, like, doing all of these options within the browser, and then also intended to be more of kind of like a a work partner than than maybe some of the other tools. I also quite like if you go to collab, and I'm going to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-87","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":88,"time":"26:38","seconds":1598,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"to just pull up Colab really quickly. For folks who haven't seen it before, it's a Python environment where you can write code in a notebook or pull up a terminal. We've also just recently integrated Gemini CLI within Colab. You can also see the the handsome little crabs that are dressed up like Oh, I gotta love the crabs.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-88","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":89,"time":"26:58","seconds":1618,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-89","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":90,"time":"26:59","seconds":1619,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"But if you type in Gemini Gemini within the terminal,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-90","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":91,"time":"27:04","seconds":1624,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"it should pull up the Gemini CLI. So you have that agent embedded within your collab instance. And then there's also the collab data science agent, which is something that you can invoke as well, either based on Gemini two dot five Flash or Gemini three Flash. And then, yep. There we go. So Gemini CLI, as soon as the, as the machine spun up, it was able to to invoke it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-91","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":92,"time":"27:31","seconds":1651,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And this isn't even getting into things like the Nano Banana models and image generation, which drove, you know, the these massive traffic spikes to AI Studio on their release. Absolutely. And I know you've been building with all these models and experimenting with them. I my understanding is you've done some interesting stuff recently as far as leveraging, the Google tool suite and models to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-92","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":93,"time":"27:57","seconds":1677,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"build out a a gamified NASA curriculum.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-93","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":94,"time":"28:00","seconds":1680,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"Oh, heck yeah. So so I am the biggest I am the biggest NASA fan girl. Like, my my early research was all focused in space sciences. So my background was more like geophysics applied math. And so all of the all of the work that I did from a research perspective was very, like, planetary sciences related. But there's a curriculum that NASA released quite a while ago called Space Math,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-94","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":95,"time":"28:32","seconds":1712,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"which is as cool as it sounds. It's basically, like, pulling in all of the different math problems that are related to the the kinds of problems that NASA scientists tackle every day. Everything from, like, coronal mass injections to or coronal or CMEs, so coronal mass ejections. Things like understanding lunar ultraviolet, understanding things like interplanetary","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-95","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":96,"time":"29:01","seconds":1741,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"dust, like hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of PDF problems that students can kind of go and see. But, you know, from from a a present day perspective, you know, this is this is very dry. If you're if you're a kid who's, you know, maybe eight years old or 10 years old, like, my my first expectation is that they would download this PDF document or they would take a picture of it with their phone, and they would send it to something like Gemini app or ChatGPT or Claude or whatever.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-96","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":97,"time":"29:35","seconds":1775,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Notebook LM and have it build me a little podcast to listen to and flashcards. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-97","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":98,"time":"29:40","seconds":1780,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"Exactly. And so so I I feel like the the curriculum","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-98","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":99,"time":"29:44","seconds":1784,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"is much in need of a revamp. You know, all of these things are really, really interesting and are the are the kinds of things that we need folks to be folks to be prioritizing. But but I built something that that took many of these PDFs. So all of the ones kind of associated with the first missions. And I built something called the mission control training program.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-99","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":100,"time":"30:11","seconds":1811,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"So it welcomes the cadets. They enter into mission control.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-100","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":101,"time":"30:15","seconds":1815,"speaker":"Audio clip","text":"Cadet, welcome to mission control. I'm Doctor. Thorne. We're tracking anomalous readings from the deep field. I need fresh eyes on the data. Process your missions. Accuracy is paramount. Do not trust the automated flags. Trust the math.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-101","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":102,"time":"30:33","seconds":1833,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"And so, which I also aspire to do, like trust the math as always. But each one of these","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-102","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":103,"time":"30:42","seconds":1842,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"each one of the PDFs has gotten changed into more of an interactive assignment. The first one is kind of questions and answers, but the but the next ones are all much more interactive. So you can, like, measure things like tree rings, measure things like the number of stars per quadrants. You can sort of decrypt mission telemetry from from different planets.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-103","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":104,"time":"31:07","seconds":1867,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"And as you go along and solve each one of these problems, you're collecting more and more kind of audio snippets for a story that that kind of bakes it together into into something that feels much more exciting and immersive,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-104","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":105,"time":"31:21","seconds":1881,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"as opposed to just playing with PDF documents.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-105","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":106,"time":"31:23","seconds":1883,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So talk me through the process that you used to build this. Is this something you vibe coded? Did you do some active coding as well? What what were you using?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-106","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":107,"time":"31:32","seconds":1892,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"Yeah. So so the I started within AI well, I actually started with Colab. So each one of those PDF documents, I went through and I web scraped. So it got all of the the different links, downloaded the PDF files, kind of put them into a directory format. Then I went through, and in a loop, I used, like, a very hyper specific prompt to convert each one of those PDF assignments into a TypeScript file","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-107","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":108,"time":"31:59","seconds":1919,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"that would accompany the that would kind of accompany the app. The the app itself was built in AI Studio for the front end. So the front end was all AI Studio. The the audio snippets were all using Gemini text to speech, though the scripts were all made with with Gemini and AI Studio. And I saved each one of the the kind of text to speech files so that they would immediately load as opposed to being generated on the fly,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-108","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":109,"time":"32:32","seconds":1952,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"which helps assist with the gameplay. I actually ran into so AI Studio has a couple of limitations. So if you're building apps within AI Studio, you might or might not run into these as you as you start creating. One limitation is that it's actually a drive limitation. The size of the app has to be less than 10 megabytes in size. And this is significantly higher than 10 megabytes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-109","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":110,"time":"32:57","seconds":1977,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"So so it would not have been feasible to to create within AI Studio. Again, the front end is is is okay, but the but the the kind of all of the audio files, the the the PDFs, like many of the other component parts, you you need to be using a more fully featured IDE in order to do development. So I built the first part in AI Studio, did a whole bunch of the the kind of web scraping and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-110","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":111,"time":"33:29","seconds":2009,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"speech snippet generation within Colab, and then also stitched it all together using antigravity. And I open sourced all of it as well, because why not? And the the open sourced version also has a link to the website itself, which is Space Math Academy. But if there's if people are significantly interested, I would happily, like, I would happily expand it. Right now, it's just one mission,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-111","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":112,"time":"34:01","seconds":2041,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"but there's definitely content for, like, up to 20 of them. So so I I think this would be very, very fun to see adopted in in k through 12 curriculum as opposed to the the things that that students have to learn from today, which is, again, you know, like PDFs,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-112","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":113,"time":"34:20","seconds":2060,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"not the most exciting thing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-113","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":114,"time":"34:20","seconds":2060,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. I mean, I think this brings up a couple of interesting trends. So one being the opportunity to I guess, almost like gamify education where I I'm not saying that the entire educational experience needs to be a game, but it's extremely useful for teaching at times. Like, if I go back to, you know so my education where it's like, oh, typing games, for example, have been a standard for ages. Like, how do I get students to learn these to type? It's kinda boring, like, but it's, you know, very important. Great. We can we can play a game. And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-114","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":115,"time":"34:51","seconds":2091,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"it's really clear that we are enabling so much more with whether it's, you know, fully Vibe coded applications for this, some of the auto gen work being done, or for developers like yourself to to build these interesting opportunities. So education is just, like, such an interesting space here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-115","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":116,"time":"35:07","seconds":2107,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"A 100%. Like, the I I feel like I I also all of the made me made me go and find it. But my very first one of the first educational games that I played was Grade Builder Algebra one. Very and it was my favorite for the longest time. Very similar in vibes to this space math situation, in that you had Hallie, who was an AI, and then a whole bunch of, like, teachers","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-116","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":117,"time":"35:35","seconds":2135,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"that were teaching you math, and you had to play games along the way to learn things like the coordinate planes and how to launch rockets and have the appropriate trajectories. Also things like gizmos and gadgets and the incredible machine and all of the Sims games. So strong, strong agree. Like, this is the reason why I love math. This the learning company is absolutely","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-117","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":118,"time":"35:57","seconds":2157,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"like, they're doing god's work lately. Absolutely","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-118","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":119,"time":"36:00","seconds":2160,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"most formative thing I could imagine.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-119","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":120,"time":"36:02","seconds":2162,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I I love to hear that. And, know, speaking of space, I think another trend that I've heard you talk about is this idea that we are gonna see AI move from, bits to atoms in the future. Yeah. And that, you know, we're gonna start seeing that already with robotics. I think there's some really exciting stuff to to kind of highlight there. And then I suspect both of us feel that there are massive opportunities of space as well. So we just love your thoughts on this move to,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-120","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":121,"time":"36:28","seconds":2188,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I guess, physical AI.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-121","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":122,"time":"36:30","seconds":2190,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"Yeah. So Gemini Gemini already runs on robots.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-122","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":123,"time":"36:36","seconds":2196,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"There's I'm sorry. It's just so cool.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-123","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":124,"time":"36:36","seconds":2196,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"Well,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-124","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":125,"time":"36:38","seconds":2198,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"it's We live in the future.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-125","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":126,"time":"36:39","seconds":2199,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It's wild. Heck yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-126","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":127,"time":"36:40","seconds":2200,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"And so so this is from from an event that we had just about a week and a half ago, but we are using something called Gemini Live to operate this robot. It's completely open source, by the way. Like, the Stanford team is so badass. They they have these things called Puppers, which are you can either build it yourself, so you can three d print all of the components.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-127","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":128,"time":"37:06","seconds":2226,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"It's running a Raspberry Pi. You can also order all of the hardware components just like off the shelf from various locations. It ends up being like $2,000 if you order and kind of three d print everything yourself, or you can buy one that's already been preassembled for like $2,500. But it's running it's running Gemini for all of the vision. You can also make it use Gemini Live for all of the text to speech and robotic actions.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-128","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":129,"time":"37:32","seconds":2252,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"But the pupper can do all sorts of things. So you can say like, hey, pupper, shake my hand. Hey, Pupper, follow me. Hey, Pupper, do the spider or, like, go swimming. Or, hey, Pupper, tell me a joke. Like, all of these things are are possible today just with the Gemini APIs by themselves running and invoking all of the different robotic components on device on a Raspberry Pi. Like, how cool is that thing?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-129","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":130,"time":"38:00","seconds":2280,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It it's it's really rad just to see","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-130","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":131,"time":"38:04","seconds":2284,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"how much things have improved the last few years around robotics. And, I mean, this is just not even getting into some of the incredible stuff happening in, like, Shenzhen and China and and and some of the insane things happening around, like, personal robots for home use Mhmm. Like with Sunday recently announcing The US. And and it's so interesting to see how this tech and the kind of combination of AI and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-131","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":132,"time":"38:27","seconds":2307,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"hardware is coming to fruition. What do you see in the next couple years as this continues to build out since you're clearly optimistic about it?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-132","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":133,"time":"38:34","seconds":2314,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"Oh, absolutely. I I think the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-133","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":134,"time":"38:38","seconds":2318,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"we're working really closely with the we have a robotics trust to tester program within DeepMind for the Gemini models and for some of our open robotics models that are available on Hugging Face if folks wanna check them out. But everybody it's kind of like a who's who of who you would expect. So Enchanted Tools, Boston Dynamics, the Figure Team, like, they're all kind of testing out or using","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-134","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":135,"time":"39:04","seconds":2344,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"Gemini models in order to operate robotics. I think in the future, this will become increasingly important. We'll start to see many more kinds of robots built with commodity hardware. So things like these Raspberry Pi, but also, like, other options that are that are perhaps a little bit easier to get than than, you know, sometimes you might have to wait a while for Raspberry Pi Zero, whereas, like, there there are options, like you mentioned, from Shenzhen that come a little bit faster","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-135","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":136,"time":"39:33","seconds":2373,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"and that are a little bit cheaper. And then I I I'm also really excited about companies like Periodic Labs, which are using AI to to control robotics, but also to to have those robots do really interesting material science work. So they can design experiments, run the experiments, test out, you know, the likelihood of different component parts being successful for the creation of semiconductors.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-136","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":137,"time":"40:05","seconds":2405,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"And I and I think we're going to see a lot more of that automation in the science world, going forward.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-137","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":138,"time":"40:12","seconds":2412,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. I know, you also do some angel investing. And I'll say, like, one of my recent very, very small indolent expense was in a company called Trilo Bio, which, they're building basically automated biology labs, in a box where they can, you know, work together modularly. And I think we're gonna keep seeing this and and other opportunities in the sciences where it's like, oh, look. This is very","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-138","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":139,"time":"40:36","seconds":2436,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"fine tuned work that needs to get done. It needs to be repeated quite a bit so that we can actually experiment across the board. How can we speed this up and enable it to happen async just the way developers are now able to have agents running in the background? And and these seem like clear areas of opportunity. It's it's kind of crazy seeing how rapidly this is all changing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-139","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":140,"time":"40:57","seconds":2457,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. Honestly, to me, it's it's pretty wild.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-140","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":141,"time":"40:59","seconds":2459,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"Yeah. And I as a person who you know, their earth sciences labs are are pretty or at least at my university, they were pretty close to the biology labs. There was a lot of work happening in terms of, like, biogeochemistry and and also ecology and biology, you know, as it relates to things like carbonate geology. But it was always bonkers to me. Like, so much","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-141","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":142,"time":"41:25","seconds":2485,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"so much of a grad student's life was just very tedious, you know, either counting things in a petri dish or, like, counting things in a satellite image or, like, grinding by hand different rock samples before putting them into, you know, some sort of instrument in order to analyze them. And all of those things could be much more easily accomplished and delightfully accomplished by robotics.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-142","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":143,"time":"41:52","seconds":2512,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"Whereas grad students, you know, obviously it's boring work, which is not the best, but it's also very, very easy for humans to make mistakes. So I think the more that AI is incorporated into the scientific process, both for designing experiments, but also executing on them, I think the better off we're all gonna be.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-143","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":144,"time":"42:12","seconds":2532,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So speaking of,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-144","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":145,"time":"42:15","seconds":2535,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"space age applications of AI and excitement there, I do have to ask about this idea of Project Suncatcher.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-145","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":146,"time":"42:25","seconds":2545,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"Oh, the the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-146","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":147,"time":"42:27","seconds":2547,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"data centers in space.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-147","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":148,"time":"42:28","seconds":2548,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I I don't know if I'd I'd love any thoughts you have on that. Actually, I'm gonna ask you at the end of this episode, who can I talk to on the Google team to answer them, because I I would love to do deep dive?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-148","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":149,"time":"42:38","seconds":2558,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"Find you I can find you people. Like and I I am personally, I I think it's a really, really interesting idea.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-149","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":150,"time":"42:47","seconds":2567,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"One of the interview questions at Google, I remember, was how would you upgrade how would you upgrade Linux in a data center that was orbiting the moon or a data center that was on the moon. So so I think it it ends up leading to a lot of really, you know, just kind of strange strange and interesting and delightfully crunchy technical questions, like how do you maintain infrastructure","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-150","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":151,"time":"43:18","seconds":2598,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"that's so far away from the earth? How do you deal with things like, you know, we were just talking about CMEs, like, how do you make your infrastructure resilient to those kinds of challenges? But I I do think that not just Google, but many, many other companies are investing in that space, and it'll be really interesting to see what outcomes are driven by having data centers in the space.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-151","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":152,"time":"43:41","seconds":2621,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. I mean, the build out around AI has been incredible to see the infrastructure that's been put together. And the opportunity to essentially adjust the inputs that are being put in the data centers so that you have cleaner energy fueling them, that you're hopefully making them much more efficient. It's it's really exciting. There's obviously huge challenges to make it work.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-152","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":153,"time":"44:06","seconds":2646,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I will not pretend that I know the physics of how you deal with gamma waves in space and how that's going to impact, the data centers, the radiation side of it. I'm excited to see how it gets figured out. But folks who I have briefly talked to about it seem very optimistic. And it's also cool to see some of the simple efficiencies happening for physical data centers","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-153","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":154,"time":"44:28","seconds":2668,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"in, earthbound ones, I should say. Maybe it's the the phrasing I'll start using here. But just seeing the efficiency gains in recent ones, whether it's, you know, the Microsoft, Fairview work, or I'm miss I'm misremembering the name of that one, and or the work being done with some of the recent Google set data centers to increase, like, water efficiency. I think we're we're seeing the industry just continually improve","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-154","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":155,"time":"44:52","seconds":2692,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"both on the model side and then, on the technology that's actually fueling those models as well. And it gives me a lot of reason for, optimism.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-155","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":156,"time":"45:01","seconds":2701,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"Yep. 100%. And speaking as a very proud Texan, like, we're we're also quickly accruing many, many data centers in Texas. So as a person who also knows just how scarce water is in the state, and then also we have a very, very interesting and bespoke electrical grid. Making sure that all of that is done responsibly is top of mind. And like, I would I would much prefer to have,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-156","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":157,"time":"45:32","seconds":2732,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"you know, data centers in space as opposed to terrestrial data centers if we can if we can finagle it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-157","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":158,"time":"45:37","seconds":2737,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Totally. And I I will say, you know, folks who have listened in this show a bit, we know we did a recent episode with Andy Masley, breaking down some of the myths around water usage and energy usage with data centers because some of these concerns are very overblown compared to things like corn usage for biofuels, for example, which is extremely inefficient. So not to say that the industry shouldn't get more efficient. We absolutely should. I'm very optimistic about what we're doing with space as the next frontier for it. But","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-158","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":159,"time":"46:07","seconds":2767,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"it is important to remind us all that, like, look, like, we can also push back on some of these narratives because they are not as accurate as they are portrayed to be, I think, in media sometimes. Not to say that we're not using some resources, and we shouldn't be paying attention to that. But, you know, there there's a lot of work to be done here. And I think some of the fears around","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-159","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":160,"time":"46:27","seconds":2787,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"privacy and IP usage and folks' fears around their own jobs tends to seep into the discussion in other areas. And they think, oh, well, I feel morally opposed or I feel scared, and therefore, it must be bad in these other areas. And so it just becomes a very challenging, squishy discussion at times. And if we can start to offload some of those costs in a way where,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-160","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":161,"time":"46:52","seconds":2812,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"you know, the trade offs are are much easier to make, where it's like, oh, you know, this is we this is in space. You don't have to worry about this impacting the ground here. Like, okay. We can still talk about, like, what does it take to do a launch? That's fine. But those are much more efficient than they used to be. I think that's just better for everyone to to start doing that. And honestly, like, I I love a good non dystopian sci fi novel Yep. Future for us. So I think that's very exciting.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-161","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":162,"time":"47:15","seconds":2835,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"100%. It feels like it it feels honestly like it should be part of, like, a Kim Stanley Robinson book or something similar.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-162","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":163,"time":"47:23","seconds":2843,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Well, and speaking of your your robotics conversation that you brought up earlier too, like, this also, I think, directly aligns there. It's like, oh, like, this is also where we're gonna have to figure out how do we get robots to repair these things. Like, how do we approach this in space? So it just speaks to the excitement of the future. And, Paige, I can't thank you enough for joining me to chat through this today. It's super exciting to kind of see your vision and Google's vision. Do you have any closing thoughts as we wrap up here?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-163","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":164,"time":"47:49","seconds":2869,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"Nothing other than definitely if folks are feeling overwhelmed with the number of models, the number of releases, like, you are not alone. I I think everybody, even people who are operating in the space, are are feeling similarly overwhelmed, though excited and energized and enthusiastic. And so so I think the the best path that you can that you can have for understanding the models and the capabilities and how you can build your own intuition around any","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-164","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":165,"time":"48:19","seconds":2899,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"performance curves is by testing out the things yourself. So test out all of the the things that we were talking about today, and then also make sure to try the models at ai.dev, which is AI Studio, and to build apps and deploy them at ai.dev/build.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-165","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":166,"time":"48:36","seconds":2916,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I will also highly recommend anyone listening who has enjoyed, Paige's conversation here, which I think most of you probably will have, to check out Paige's website at webpage.dev. Find Paige's LinkedIn, which we'll probably linked link in the episode show notes. She's at dynamic web page on x/ Twitter and elsewhere around the Internet sharing her incredible content, talking all about the innovations Google's doing here. It's been a ton of fun having you on the show, Paige. Can't thank you enough.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-166","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":167,"time":"49:03","seconds":2943,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"Thank you, and have a happy holiday season.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-167","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":168,"time":"49:07","seconds":2947,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yes. Yes. Happy holidays, everyone. I know this is gonna be our first episode coming out of the New Year.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-168","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":169,"time":"49:12","seconds":2952,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"We're recording here the week of Christmas, so hopefully everyone has a lovely and restful time to close things out. A couple of brief housekeeping notes from my end as we wrap up here. One, a big thank you to our presenting sponsors, Galileo, for making this episode happen. Super excited about the future of season three. Two, if you are listening to this episode and you haven't watched the video of it, just you're missing a few things. High highly recommend checking our YouTube, which is linked to the show notes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-169","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":170,"time":"49:40","seconds":2980,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Highly recommend checking out this out on Spotify, whatever your best usage is here, but at Chain of Thought AI on YouTube. And just hope everyone who's had listened to this had a wonderful holiday season, having a great start to the year. And, Paige, thank you so much for making this happen. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-170","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":171,"time":"49:58","seconds":2998,"speaker":"Paige Bailey","text":"Thank you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-171","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":172,"time":"49:58","seconds":2998,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Thanks to Galileo for sponsoring this episode. Their new 165","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-172","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":173,"time":"50:04","seconds":3004,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"page comprehensive guide to mastering multi agent systems is freely available on their website at galileo.ai and provides you the lens you need to understand when multi agent systems add value versus single agent approaches, how to design them efficiently, and how to build reliable systems that work in production. Download it for free at the link in the show description to discover how to continuously improve your AI agents,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-173","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey","episode":47,"guid":"915e691b-f56d-493b-9856-f839f915dd32","episodeTitle":"Gemini 3 & Robot Dogs: Inside Google DeepMind's AI Experiments | Paige Bailey","publishedAt":"2026-01-14","segmentIndex":174,"time":"50:34","seconds":3034,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"identify and avoid common coordination pitfalls, master context engineering for agent collaboration, measure performance with multi agent metrics, and much more.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/47-gemini-3-and-robot-dogs-inside-google-deepminds-ai-experiments-paige-bailey/#t-174","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"You've heard of evaluations. But have you heard of eval engineering? Eval engineering is the difference between AI that ships and AI that's stuck in prototype. Most teams are still treating evals like they did unit tests. Write them once, check a box, move on, maybe even just ignore them if they don't pass. But when you're deploying agents that make real decisions, that touch real customers, that cost money,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:25","seconds":25,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"these one time tests don't cut it. The company's actually shipping production AI at scale, they've figured out something different. They've turned evaluations into infrastructure, into IP, into the layer where domain expertise becomes executable governance. Welcome back to Chain of Thought. I'm your host Conor Bronsdon. Before we dive in, I do want to note some news that I have to share, which is that I have recently","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":2,"time":"0:48","seconds":48,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"joined Modular as head of technical ecosystem where I am working on next generation AI infra and the Mojo programming language. I've got a huge open source community. It's an incredible opportunity and I'm super excited about what we're building there. But that also means that I'm no longer at Galileo. And chain of thought has always been about these conversations that matter, whether it's the technical depth that brings","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:08","seconds":68,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"builders to the next level for them, that helps them ship production AI, diving into valuations like like we're doing today. And I'm really delighted that Galileo has graciously agreed to sponsor season three of this podcast, which means we can keep bringing you these conversations. And I'm even more excited to have Galileo's CEO, Vikram Chatterji joining us once again today to talk about the crucial discipline of eval engineering,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":4,"time":"1:30","seconds":90,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"how it's becoming a thing, why it's becoming so popular, and what it actually takes to make it work. Vikram, thank you so much for joining me. It's great to see you. Likewise, Conor. Thank you for having me again on this pod. Super excited to be here. Always love chatting with you. You have been a fantastic guest several times here. For folks who are listening, and are maybe new, definitely recommend checking out some of Vikram's past episodes. He's had a quite a few good ones. Vikram, you and I have been talking about evaluating agents this year. It's obviously been","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":5,"time":"1:57","seconds":117,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"a deep topic of discussion. I think most folks really are still thinking sometimes about evaluating LLMs at a base level, which is something that's been happening for a while now. But the field has rapidly evolved. And with it has come this idea of eval engineering, evaluation engineering.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":6,"time":"2:11","seconds":131,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Can you start by just giving us a definition of what eval engineering is? And then maybe we can get into a bit of why it matters. Essentially, like you said, if I take a step back around why evals are becoming IP, over the last year, year and a half, especially, we've been noticing a lot of teams move away from just thinking about building out these AI applications as just, hey, let's try to get to our response from this chatbot, or let's get this agent to actually perform a task towards","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":7,"time":"2:37","seconds":157,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"we're thinking more about how do I actually take this thing to production? How do I make this super useful for my business unit? And as a part of that, evals have been coming up over and over again. That's why in the last year, it's become extremely crucial for teams to build high quality, high accuracy Evalues. Galileo has been pioneering eval engineering, as we call it now, for the last several years at this point. But what we've been noticing in the industry is folks have been really confused about what it means to create high quality evals. What is how do you how do you actually create evals? What kind of evals to create? Those are questions which plague everyone. So it's a weird dichotomy that we've been seeing in the industry where on the one hand folks realize that if you're a mature organization and you mature AI team and you really wanna be able to create high quality AI applications and agents,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":8,"time":"3:24","seconds":204,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"you know that you wanna create you need you need evals. But at the same time, they also have the same question around, like, what's they need to be educated around what those evals should be and how you can actually build them out. And the way we think about this at Galileo is, an eval is something that you don't just author. If it's an LLM powered metric, you can't just create an LLM as a charge and call it a day. You have to be able to, you know, author it, test it, measure it, but also make sure that it can go from not just a static","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":9,"time":"3:51","seconds":231,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"metric or a score that you get at the end of the day, but take that and make sure that it's high accuracy, but also low latency and low cost. And there are many, many different reasons for that, which we can get into. But this act of being able to take an eval and then convert that into something that is scalable is extremely crucial. And that's the infrastructure that Kadaleo has been building for the last two years, And we call that eval engineering. It's something that we built with that very developer first mindset.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":10,"time":"4:18","seconds":258,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"It's something that any developer can take and and and create and, and, and scale out with, in a very self serve way. And speaking of that self serve developer approach,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":11,"time":"4:28","seconds":268,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I know Jim Bennett at Galileo is actually running a course right now or that's starting very shortly. That's gonna be running through December and January, of 2026. I'm talking about eval engineering for AI developers and enabling folks. Is this something that you're gonna start running regularly to help educate the community?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":12,"time":"4:44","seconds":284,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"That's right. And and you know this better than anybody else, Conor, since you were here, that we're very big on talking about the stuff that we've been hearing from from developers everywhere and our customers and packaging that into content, which which which everybody can use. We think education should be democratized. And, when it comes to the forefront of evals, we've been trying to do that as much as we can. So this whole idea of evals engineering, how do you actually go about that in a very systematic step by step fashion is something that we're","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":13,"time":"5:11","seconds":311,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"packaging in the form of a of a course based on popular demand. I'm super excited about that so that developers can actually learn what best practices are here, but also give us feedback and teach us about how they're be they've been performing eval engineering.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":14,"time":"5:24","seconds":324,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And part of the rationale for this, know is that generic evals are really plateauing. They're not getting to that 90 plus percent accuracy you need to really ensure you're getting what you need in production. What, what have you been seeing on the research side around this? I know Shreya Shankar has been doing some, some work around this at Berkeley. And what do you think developers need to know about breaking that plateau?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":15,"time":"5:46","seconds":346,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Well, I think there's a, there's two parts to this. One is there's a research aspect. There's also an organization aspect. Increasingly in teams, when we talk to folks who are very, very serious about building out high quality agents, like AI SRE organizations and billing agents for sales and billing agents for banks, what we'd be noticing is they have a bunch of software engineers who are working on building out these agents. But when we really, really ask them what their day to day looks like, 70% of the time is just evals.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":16,"time":"6:13","seconds":373,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Right? And when we really break that down even further, what they're trying to do is take these evals and make sure that those are getting to higher accuracy by just simply trying to tweak the prompts in these LLMs as a judge and trying to make sure that they're high accuracy enough, and then they're trying to monitor their traffic. And they typically just do around 10% monitoring of the traffic because beyond that, it gets extremely expensive to use these LLM based judges. So two things. One is organizationally,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":17,"time":"6:37","seconds":397,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"I am of the opinion that we're gonna start seeing more and more folks come out as not just AI engineers, but also eval engineers, just given how pivotal this is for every team and given how important it is from an IP perspective to have your own custom scalable evals. So eval engineering as an actual discipline, as a science, as a concept is gonna be bigger and bigger as we go. And therefore, the most mature organizations are gonna have not just, you don't hear prompt engineering prompt engineers anymore, but eval engineering is 100% gonna be a bigger thing. And that's why we're also publishing the course so that eval engineers can can learn that, get certified, and and more and more eval maturity starts to show up in the market. To to your other question about the the research component of this, there's very, very limited r and d that's happening right now, which is why, again, like, at Galileo, you know this, we've been we're not just a software layer company. We've been pioneering stuff on the data science side of things, infrastructure side of things, such that we can actually provide evals at scale.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":18,"time":"7:33","seconds":453,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"And as this requires a lot of different kinds of competence to come together. So one example of that was the idea that you can provide natural language feedback when you actually look at a, an eval that's that's not performing really well. To give you a concrete example, if you have built a simple eval, like, correctness or to measure the accuracy or, and correctness of a of a response from a from a chatbot, for instance, when you look at that and you see that you see that it's it's a 100% wrong, most of the time you look at that score and you have you can't really do anything about it. And that's gonna where as a developer, as well as a subject matter expert, you feel very powerless.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":19,"time":"8:06","seconds":486,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"And so we build out this technique by which you could just, add natural language feedback. And, we take abstract away the notion of how you can auto prompt engineer that response. We use different kinds of techniques there. That that's completely differentiated technology that's taken away from the developer's hands, such that they don't have to think about going and trying to tweak the prompt in different kinds of ways. We call that continuous learning through human feedback. And, the, the feature is called auto tune, but that itself has dramatically reduced the amount of time that it takes from seeing, an eval that's not performing really well to actually getting to around 95% plus accuracy with an LLM as a judge, the three or four points of feedback. Right? So that's one example of r and d that we've been seeing has been has been really, really useful, but there's many, many more such things that you can do to make sure that it's high accuracy, low latency, low cost.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":20,"time":"8:54","seconds":534,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"We have started also working with certain academic institutions and folks in in across the industry to make sure that we can further the idea of eval engineering. And that's also frankly why we're making this big push towards people in the industry understanding that there's a bigger and bigger need for people to think more about about eval engineering versus just focusing on getting that next agent out the door, which is not gonna work. Yeah. Part of the rationale here is that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":21,"time":"9:22","seconds":562,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"change in accuracy from generic evaluations, like you may be to 70 ish percent, the research shows, to actually providing that auto tuning human feedback to providing, creating custom evals with that, where you can get 90% plus a 100% even sometimes accuracy. Because with, without that, I mean, percent evaluation accuracy is fine, but that means that three in 10 interactions are failing and you can't tell necessarily.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":22,"time":"9:46","seconds":586,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So, that's just not deployable for customer facing AI. If you're trying to do anything that's like particularly important. So I think it's really clear there's an opportunity here, but it might be helpful to define the different key elements of eval engineering. So we've talked a bit about, this customization of evaluations. We've talked a bit about this latency problem, which I know is something that you're looking at addressing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":23,"time":"10:11","seconds":611,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"How do you break down this discipline and what are the key facets of it?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":24,"time":"10:16","seconds":616,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Yep. That's a great question. So essentially there are, three different facets to this and, to to to go sort down that route, maybe let's start with the core problem. Right? When you're using an LLM as a judge, even if you're using let's say, take an example. If you're using a GPT five, as as as the LLM for your judge, what you're doing effectively is you build out a judge which is around 70% accurate. It is, for a per million token, it's about $1.25","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":25,"time":"10:44","seconds":644,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"which is very expensive. It's got a latency of around two to three seconds. So it's super, super expensive, super high latency. So now as as a developer, you've built something, which is just like wrong three out of 10 times, but also you can't really scale this for, for when you're, when you're monitoring all of your traffic. So step number one is, just authoring a high accuracy, just authoring the judge. That's step number one. Step number two is making sure that it's high accuracy,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":26,"time":"11:09","seconds":669,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"which is where auto prompt engineering comes in. That's that continuous learning piece, which I think all developers are familiar with in other areas. That's right. That's correct. That's correct. So how do you actually tweak the, the actual LMS judge so that you can make a create a high accuracy prompt at the minimum, right, for for that LMS judge. And I'll talk about that and what pieces are important there. Step number three is auto adapting that such that you now make this a small language model version of itself. And this is where you need an SLM,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":27,"time":"11:37","seconds":697,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"which is gonna be very useful for that particular task, but you also need to be able to fine tune that SLM with data from your production traffic really quickly. So those are the three different ways by which you can basically get from an LLM as a judge towards a high accuracy, low cost, low latency, SLM version of itself. Now, if you take the first step, which is just authoring an LLM as a judge, question number one there becomes, how do you even know what the the task at hand should be and what the, prompt should be in the first place?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":28,"time":"12:05","seconds":725,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"We've noticed that a lot of, these LLMs as a judge are actually created not by the developer. They're created by subject matter experts, the the AI product manager, the folks who actually understand the business use case. And those folks, are not prompt engineers. And so, part part of that is, how do you make sure that you could take natural language input from these from these folks and then author a very, very high performing prompt, which can get you to that 75%","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":29,"time":"12:30","seconds":750,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"accuracy. So that's step number one. That is something that we've already built. We call it auto gen, where we can build the eval prompt for you. Step number two becomes going from 75% to 95% accuracy with the LLM as a judge is what we call the last mile measurement problem. And what do you realize there, Conor, is that it's very much a factor of all the information that is not what the LLM was was was trained on in the first place, which is the the public Internet. But instead it's the last mile context, which you have as an organization. It's about your use case, your organization, your context, and no LLM on the planet can have all of that. So now if for some reason it says that the model doesn't realize that the the abbreviation CC stands for credit card, versus that's what you've been using in your parlance all the time. Now there's some very specific banking policies that the that the model has no idea about that's internal to you guys. Then you have to add that context and provide that context to the model without necessarily fine tuning it. So that's the part which I call CLHF.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":30,"time":"13:30","seconds":810,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"That's the research that we've that we've been doing for the last couple of years. So continuous learning through human feedback basically means that now you add that natural language feedback, like I said, and we auto auto tune the the LLM as a judge. And now very quickly with four or five pieces of feedback, you can get it to a fairly high degree of accuracy.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":31,"time":"13:47","seconds":827,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"What's happening during this time is that as a part of that feedback, Conor, you're also basically providing feedback when there is a false positive or a false negative. Right? So what that means is you're also basically telling the the the platform what the actual right metric should be or the right response should be. So you're creating ground truth effectively. And as part of creating ground truth, you're creating the dataset. Once you create authored, you're essentially authoring this dataset, which is the ground truth dataset for that metric. And that helps with step number three, which is we have these SLMs,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":32,"time":"14:17","seconds":857,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"SLMs, which have been specifically built out for evals. We have done a lot of jujitsu around their their rates, around their, the decoder steps, etcetera, to make sure that it's, low latency, but also specifically for evals. We call them our LUNA evaluation models. We auto we also built an auto fine tuning engine on top of that, which automatically fine tunes with this data that you've now which you've now created with or without you knowing through CLHF.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":33,"time":"14:41","seconds":881,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"And that's how you automatically create a very, high accuracy, fine tuned SLM version of that metric. Right? But it doesn't end there because now you have an eval, but you also need to be able to actually, do inference on that eval at scale. Some of our customers have thousands of queries per second, and they have tons of evals for every single one of those queries, which is a lot. And so how do you actually perform eval at, inference for evals at scale? And so that that becomes more of a GPU optimization question. So as you can see, there's these three different parts, but overall, it becomes very much of a a data science problem, becomes an infrastructure challenge. But net net, from an eval engineering perspective, we think that if you can at least follow these three steps overall, it, it leads to a much, much higher performing eval versus just a vanilla LLM as a judge, which is step zero. Nice starting point. It's not gonna get you where you need to be. Exactly. That's exactly right. And I think one of the really exciting things about eval engineering as a discipline is this idea that you just continue to improve over time. So you maybe start with that generic,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":34,"time":"15:42","seconds":942,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"evaluation, whether that's one of the belted ones, Galileo's platform, an open source one, whatever it is you're using. You can then fine tune that obviously with a human feedback. You can apply some of these, you know, automations for auto tuning and then there's this major opportunity to actually, once you've got into the success level you need, whether that's, know, 95% success, 99, whatever it is,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":35,"time":"16:06","seconds":966,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"you can apply this eval as a runtime control to actually manage agent behavior, in real time. Can you tell us a bit more about how","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":36,"time":"16:15","seconds":975,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"this evolving part of the discipline is starting to take shape? This is this is something we've been we've been noticing more and more where with agents, we feel like it's, it's less about just the input and the output. It's a it's a lot to do with all the inner working of the agents from when it comes to evals. And what I mean by that is these tools and planners and the handoffs between agents, there needs to be a lot of, rerouting and traffic copying that needs to happen in in runtime. And what that means is,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":37,"time":"16:45","seconds":1005,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"observability platforms need to evolve from being purely reactive to being proactive. And again, as you know, we've been talking about this and shouting from the rooftops for the last two years ever since we launched Protect about two years ago, which is our runtime engine for taking these SLM powered evals and using them for protection within two hundred millisecond latencies at scale. So we we're seeing that same level of protection and that infrastructure","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":38,"time":"17:09","seconds":1029,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"can also be used for actually rerouting these micro controls within the agent. So I think the future is gonna be very much about who can control, the different aspects of the of the agent objects, like your tools and MCP server and your handoffs. And and that's what we that kind of agent control is what's gonna lead to, folks who can, build agents that are truly autonomous versus the ones who cannot. I assume you don't think every evaluation","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":39,"time":"17:36","seconds":1056,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"should turn into a runtime guardrail. How should developers be making the decisions about, hey, this seems to be a live control versus here's something we're using, in other circumstances?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":40,"time":"17:46","seconds":1066,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Yeah, it's a great question. I almost feel like, it's there are two dissociated concepts at that point. There is a and and and they all fall under the broader umbrella of observability. So think of observability as something which is has to work for for for agents, especially, has to work offline, online, as well as runtime. Now, evals is one component of all of this where you build out this measurement system. Right? And you can use that measurement system for for monitoring,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":41,"time":"18:10","seconds":1090,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"but then you could also use this measurement system for, let's say, at a tool level to say that, look, if there's an error in the tool, then do x. That being said, some of these some of these controls needn't have an eval at its at its at its score. They could be, purely conditional, but they'll need a runtime, engine to to actually operate. But the way I think about this is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":42,"time":"18:28","seconds":1108,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"not today's evals are tomorrow's guardrails, but not every single eval needs to be to be a guardrail. Not every eval needs to be a control. You know, when you're thinking about, controls within the, within an organization, certain evals are more system based. What I mean by that is it's, much more about the, you know, the adherence to the context. It's about more about the the errors in the tools. There are some evals that are much more about the use case itself, the whether there's a banking policy adherence happening or not. Right? So if you stack and list out all these different evals and you stack rank it, what we've noticed is the ones that are highest priority.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":43,"time":"19:04","seconds":1144,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"As an example, adherence to banking policy. Let's say that one is extremely high priority for the bank, for that particular business unit. It's gonna be very important for them to make sure that that's something which is converted into a guardrail and enforced. So you might have X number of evals that have been built out, but you'll only have maybe X divided by four that are converted into guardrails and then also used as controls. Tell me more about how","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":44,"time":"19:25","seconds":1165,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"you then gain insights from what's happening in production. Because obviously if you are starting to run all these controls at runtime, and you are operating a lot of this infrastructure around these agents, there's a lot of data that comes from that. And there's a lot of lessons and learning that can be then reapplied to your entire AI infra system here. You mentioned","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":45,"time":"19:47","seconds":1187,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"earlier this idea of stacking agents on top of that to take the learnings back into the system. How is that process actually working or what are you recommending to eval engineers as they try to bring those insights back from production and leverage them to improve, the agents?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":46,"time":"20:02","seconds":1202,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Yeah. It's a great question. So essentially, all of this is a loop. So we do see how if you if you notice something in production where you have a failure mode, converting that into an eval in the first place becomes extremely important. So the way we think of this is you log your data, you enforce these evals on those logs, you start to, fix and update your agent based on that, And then you monitor it again. Within that process, you once you actually realize that, hey, there's something which is which is a new failure mode that's being discovered, you actually bring that back into the overall system and the overall flow. Now, what we've also noticed is that when for a particular eval has a life cycle of its own. So there's an overall agent life cycle, but if you look at an eval, because it's also powered by an LLM for the most part, it's almost like a mini app within an app. And now you have many such mini apps because you have many such evals. So you just you just like you have a prompt and a data fly wheel for your overall agent, you also have a prompt and a data fly wheel that you need for your eval as well. Now, this can sound like a lot of work, but that's why I feel like it's very, very important for observability platforms like ours at Galileo to be to take on the work, to, make it dead easy for developers","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":47,"time":"21:14","seconds":1274,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"to be able to just, you know, start by creating an eval and then with minimum work and effort, kind of get to the other side where they can actually author high accuracy versions of itself, but also discover when they need to re fine tune these these SLM powered metrics and also abstract away the fine tuning piece from them because they're not data scientists. So there's a lot of work there that needs to be done to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":48,"time":"21:37","seconds":1297,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"abstract the complexity away from developers. And that's precisely where I feel like the R and D needs to come in. That's something which in 2026, just given how it's gonna be the year of agents, it's gonna be the year when agents are gonna be going into production more than ever before. We're also seeing it being, 2025 was the year where we had a proliferation of agent builder platforms. So we're gonna see millions and millions of agents built out, but like a handful of them, as you know right now, are actually in production, so we're gonna see more and more of them coming in production, but that's only because we're gonna see more people actually figure out how to do this eval engineering piece for their agents, and become really good at thinking about this as a life cycle as, versus just thinking about the agents as a life cycle. As these evaluation life cycles evolve from, let's call it 10% observability to closer to a 100% observability,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":49,"time":"22:26","seconds":1346,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"that creates a ton more opportunities to, to learn, a lot more data you can bring in. But I imagine there's also a risk of these positive feedback loops going wrong, where they can spiral in the wrong direction. Are there particular failure modes that you think eval engineers need to watch out for as they architect these systems?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":50,"time":"22:43","seconds":1363,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Well, that's what's interesting because there are some failure modes, but it's also really, really hard to figure out what the failure modes are because they're they come from in all shapes and sizes and they could be at the tool levels, MCP server level, handoff, could be in many different in many different parts. It could also just be in there, in the use case specific in a very use case specific nature. So something which we've been working on is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":51,"time":"23:05","seconds":1385,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"what we call our auto insights. So what it means is essentially taking all of the different logs and all of these different evals that have been built out and the prompts for these evals that have been built out and throwing that into a an eval specific reasoning engine, which then can automatically tell the developer exactly where the failure modes are. So this is not a chat with the logs feature, which is extremely gimmicky in my opinion. But instead, it's more of a automatically telling the developer that here are the ten, fifteen, 20 different places where there's something which is potentially going wrong,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":52,"time":"23:33","seconds":1413,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"and you can actually take action on it. It's it's the reason I feel like that's extremely important is because it's very difficult otherwise for developers to constantly be on top of what the failure modes are. That is the big, game of whack a mole that starts to getting get played when it comes to figuring out where things are going wrong with these nondeterministic systems.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":53,"time":"23:52","seconds":1432,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"And frankly, Conor, I feel like that's actually step zero part of the step zero of eval engineering, which is which eval should I even create? What are my failure modes outside the usual suspects? Because otherwise, I just see people creating pretty frivolous evals like correctness and, you know, toxicity and, stuff like that, which is just not even the tip of the iceberg.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":54,"time":"24:11","seconds":1451,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"What kind of customer results have you been seeing, Vikram, from teams that are successfully implementing this eval engineering stack?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":55,"time":"24:18","seconds":1458,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"The customer results for the last year of us doing this with, with folks has been absolutely staggering. So for instance, one, large telco that we work with for the last year, because of eval engineering, what we've seen is that's unblocked them in two fronts. One of them is they actually have the trust and control to be able to go from one one agent when we started working with them to 47 agents within the span of the last eight months at scale.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":56,"time":"24:41","seconds":1481,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"And when I say at scale, this is not like a startup in San Francisco scale. This is like 8,000 queries per second more. It's insane. And with all their evals in place for a 100% of their traffic. What this means from a cost perspective for them outside of the observability impact is before we came into the picture and help them from an eval engineering perspective,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":57,"time":"25:01","seconds":1501,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"they were using GPT model. At the time, they were using GPT 4.1 as the judge. And it cost them across all their evals, across all their logs, cost them around $26,000,000 a year annualized for just for evals. Right? It's extremely expensive. People don't realize this, but it's there. People only think about inference costs, but actually you're also doing inference for all of your evals and it's extremely expensive.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":58,"time":"25:28","seconds":1528,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"With Gallaudet's eval engineering, because we help them convert that into a higher accuracy, low latency, low cost version of itself, that LUNA models and the entire stack that we have on top of that, it's gone down from 25,000,000 to $350,000 annualized. We've done this with this large telco. We're also seeing the same thing happen with across a few of our other customers in different kinds of fields. So which is which is why we're now up with all of those learnings that we've had over the last one or two years and of pioneering in the space, And we're now capturing that in this course that I was talking about and making that available for free for all developers. A large part of all of the work that we've done with Luna models as well as the auto tune feed feedback feature that I mentioned before. All of that is also available for free in our in our product, which for any developer to go that's building out an agent and use at galileo.ai.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":59,"time":"26:18","seconds":1578,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"And, we're very happy to to get some feedback on all of those pieces too.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":60,"time":"26:23","seconds":1583,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"One of the things I think is really cool is to see how over the last over the last what, three and a half years, as Galileo has really grown, you've continued to get deeper on this pipeline where it's like, okay, initially we're helping solve basic metrics. We're getting you to that 70% problem. But you know, once you saw that start to plateau, you said, okay, how can we enable more customization? How can we make it really easy to customize?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":61,"time":"26:44","seconds":1604,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"How can we bring in data from production to actually improve this? How can we add synthetic data that you can use to test this against to again improve? But I'm sure not everything has worked the first time. In fact, I can, I can speak to that a little bit myself having been there for a year and a half? But I'm curious from your perspective, what are some of the approaches that you've tried as you've worked through eval engineering","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":62,"time":"27:08","seconds":1628,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"that have not paid off as well as you maybe expected them to? And, and what did you learn from that process that you're now applying to the discipline?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":63,"time":"27:15","seconds":1635,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, that's why it's always the the boon and the bane of, trying to pioneer versus just, you know, follow the herd. And, you know, this one of our values is wander bravely, and we've always been kind of pushing the envelope. And our thesis on this market has always been that at some point, people are gonna get very serious about these agents and these apps that they're building out because they're gonna be critical for their business unit. And you also know that, you know, for maybe the first two years of us doing this, that was not the case in the market. People did not care about scalable evals. People did not care about high accuracy evals. They were the the the question was just give me my traces, man, and I'll be happy that it is which is honestly, you could wipe code that today. Right? So so so along the path, we've noticed is we had certain, certain ideas for how do you solve for these two bespoke problems. One is how do you actually solve for that last mile accuracy problem? And the second was how do you actually reduce the latency on this? One of the things which we tried out initially from, from a, from a latency perspective was we always knew that SLMs would potentially be the answer for this. So you don't have to use a large, super, super large language model for doing a simple task like an eval. The first thing that we, which we had done, you probably remember this, is we, we use the BERT model from from Google way back. And we realized that compared to these much larger language models, the BERT model just doesn't generalize. And then now where do you go from here? Like, then we started using a LAMA 80,000,000,000 parameter model, and we noticed that, wait a second, that can that's much, much better from an accuracy perspective, can also be fine tuned, but it's extremely expensive and it's extremely high latency. So can we launch this for every developer? Sure. But we won't be doing justice. So there's a lot of research that that we had to do to figure out which amongst this large volume of open source models out there, which ones can we actually use, which ones have the right licenses. So there was a lot of back and forth and huge amounts of experimentation that had to happen there. The other piece that what we realized was even after fine tuning these models,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":64,"time":"29:05","seconds":1745,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"there was this other problem of how do you actually provide this at scale? And, that's when we realized that, you know, these models can't just be a generation a gen right? You can't just take out, let's say, a LAMA eight b and just say, like, look, I'm gonna fine tune this and that's it. Kumbaya. It doesn't solve it doesn't solve the problem because they are generative models versus an eval model has to be something which just spits out a single token or a few tokens. And so now how do you actually change the weights? How do you fix how do you work on the decoders such that it becomes an eval focused model? So that's more work we have to do. So it's been a series of things that we've had to do over time such that now we can we've been able to commercialize this at scale. So lots of learnings along the way, but, we've tried to commoditize that into infrastructure and product.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":65,"time":"29:49","seconds":1789,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And now that we're actually seeing people putting agents into production, really caring about moving to that 90% plus accuracy mark, I mean, can look at a million examples, but like Google just announced enabling agents, people to build agents within their Google Workspaces, for example, very simply. That's just one obvious example, but I think you kind of look anywhere and you'll see this behavior happening.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":66,"time":"30:11","seconds":1811,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Now that that's happening, you know, obviously this means the importance of the all platforms, evolved engineering discipline has vastly increased. What do you see coming next? What are the things that you're keeping your eye on or or charging towards perhaps as far as continuing to innovate the discipline?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":67,"time":"30:27","seconds":1827,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Something which is very top of mind for us right now is what does all of this mean for multi agentic systems at scale? Because we're gonna 2026 is probably gonna be also the year when we're gonna see right now, we're very much in the earliest innings. We we don't have those many agents. The industry doesn't have those many agents in production. It's rapidly changing. The the demand is there. The the stack is there. So we're obviously gonna see more and more multi agentic systems. We're gonna see a much maturation with the MCP","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":68,"time":"30:56","seconds":1856,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"as well as a two a frameworks. What we're also gonna start seeing is more of a focus on auth for agents. You're gonna see is more of a standardization across multiple APIs. I think we feel like a lot of platforms like Salesforce and HubSpot and many others like Epic and others are start gonna start become more like databases with very easily accessible tools for different agents to use. So we're gonna see a lot more of that. So now in","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":69,"time":"31:22","seconds":1882,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"that future, where first party and third party agents start to talk to each other to perform very, very complex tasks, what does it mean for evals? It's definitely not an element as a judge. It's much more of how do you actually help control the different smaller fine, grained parts of these agents. And so that's kind of the direction that we've been thinking a lot more about, off late and think it's gonna become much more real maybe to eight months from now. Do you expect that this","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":70,"time":"31:47","seconds":1907,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"new eval engineer role that's starting to appear is gonna be sitting more on like the platform team side, is gonna be embedded within the main engineering team that's working on say an agent product? How do you see this breaking down from a organizational perspective? Because obviously there's a lot of different stakeholders that are gonna care about this. Yep. Yep. That's a great question. I think it's it's very similar to how we noticed how a go to market engineer came about who was kinda sitting in this middle of sales and marketing. I feel like it's gonna be similar where the eval engineer needs to have a very good idea of what the product is supposed to, as well as be able to engineer","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":71,"time":"32:24","seconds":1944,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"the the eval and scale it. So it's the it's a person who has to have a really good understanding of of systems and engineering, but also of the product. I think of it as very similar to a product engineer workflow where they have to have that product intuition and an understanding of the of the of the business, but also understand how code works and how, code hygiene works and actually submit PRs. So it's it's it's it's gonna be very similar to a software engineer, but somebody who is more product minded. And frankly, we're already seeing that happen today with a lot of the software engineers who are actually working on AI applications. Most of the time, Conor, is is you probably know already is is is is spent less on the code side of things. It's more on the prompt side of things, like agents as well. I know that agents are 90%","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":72,"time":"33:08","seconds":1988,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"code, but that code is extremely boilerplate. And most of the time that's spent is spent on the prompts for the, for the planners and handoffs, etcetera. And so I feel like it's exactly those individuals who are gonna also start thinking a lot more about evals and as a discipline, start to think of it more as engineering. And I've transitioned from prompt engineering to context engineering and now adding eval engineering as, to really nail this in. That's correct. Yeah. And people are gonna very quickly realize that the more eval engineers that you have in your team, the the the magically quote unquote, the, the AI application actually becomes much more accurate and much more scalable than your competition.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":73,"time":"33:43","seconds":2023,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Vikram, thank you so much for coming on. It's been great to chat with you again here and dive into eval engineering as a discipline. I think it's clear that there's just so much opportunity to improve the agentic stack. Most of us in the industry are just seeing, this agentic feature really come into clear focus here. We've, we've gone from demos to prototypes,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-73","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":74,"time":"34:05","seconds":2045,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"to actually having agents in production and major companies launching agent builders and agents starting to just expand everywhere, including everything from being able to use a voice agent to call a company and get hours, which someone Google is now providing to builders like N and a Gumloop and so many others where you can build custom agents for your business use cases.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-74","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":75,"time":"34:25","seconds":2065,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And as you mentioned, this includes the ability of a lot of these coding agents to kind of build the boilerplate for you, let you focus on the prompts, let you really nail in your evals to ensure the system's working the way it needs to, to customize. It's been a fantastic tour through eval engineering,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-75","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":76,"time":"34:41","seconds":2081,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"but I'd love to get your perspective as we close out here on what's next. What's, what else do folks need to know about eval engineering and what's coming so they can, I guess, anticipate the future or prepare to be excellent in these roles? Great question, Conor. So as you think about eval engineering, I think of it as the the biggest blocker right now for, agent application development is how do you actually bake in trust and control, so that you can actually sleep at night knowing that things are okay. And I think of eval engineering as a very, very important piece for baking in that trust in your system, so you can do proper regression testing and you can bake that into your CICD process.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-76","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":77,"time":"35:16","seconds":2116,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"However, a really big thing that's gonna be very important for agentic application development is how do you actually bake in, those fine grained micro controls for different parts of your agentic system at scale. And that's something which I think is gonna be extremely crucial going forward in 2026. And we're we're actually very excited about a launch that we're gonna be doing","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-77","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":78,"time":"35:40","seconds":2140,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"in about two months from now on exactly these grounds, and we've been, beta testing it with, with our customers right now too, and getting some incredible responses. So I'm super excited to talk more about that very, very soon. So there's more coming. We're gonna keep pushing the boundaries of eval engineering and move it from just trust towards control as well. But that's something which we're really excited about going forward.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-78","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":79,"time":"36:01","seconds":2161,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Fantastic. Well, Vikram, thanks again for coming on the show. It's been great catching up with you, and hope to chat again soon. Likewise. Thanks, Conor. And for everyone listening, just a quick reminder, if you have a guest that you would like to see us bring on the show, drop a comment on this episode on Spotify, on YouTube, or message me on LinkedIn. Would love to hear from you and know who else you think we should be bringing on for season three and season four in 2026.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-79","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":80,"time":"36:26","seconds":2186,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Vikram, thanks again for coming on the show. It's been a pleasure seeing you. Thanks, Conor. Appreciate it. Thanks to Galileo for sponsoring this episode. Their new 165 page comprehensive guide to mastering multi agent systems is freely available on their website at calao.ai and provides you the lens you need to understand when multi agent systems add value","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-80","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji","episode":46,"guid":"6fc7be20-14f4-4158-853a-437a442e8b9c","episodeTitle":"Explaining Eval Engineering | Galileo's Vikram Chatterji","publishedAt":"2025-12-19","segmentIndex":81,"time":"36:52","seconds":2212,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"versus single agent approaches, how to design them efficiently, and how to build reliable systems that work in production. Download it for free at the link in the show description to discover how to continuously improve your AI agents, identify and avoid common coordination pitfalls, master context engineering for agent collaboration, measure performance with multi agent metrics, and much more.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/46-explaining-eval-engineering-galileos-vikram-chatterji/#t-81","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"AI is destroying the planet or so we've been told. Today, we're tackling one of the most persistent and most misleading narratives in the AI conversation that using AI is destroying the climate and leading us down a path of environmental destruction. I'm your host, Conor Bronsdon, and thanks to our presenting sponsors, Galileo, for enabling us to do this episode.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:23","seconds":23,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"If you've been at a party outside of tech recently and mentioned your use of AI tools, you might have gotten the look. You know the one. Don't you know how terrible this is for the environment? What are you doing? Maybe someone even threw a statistic at you about water usage or carbon emissions. You may even have felt a twinge of guilt, knowing how to respond, or at least not being able to communicate the sense that look, our","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":2,"time":"0:49","seconds":49,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"world is so technologically connected already. Like, is this really the thing that is causing all these problems? And it's what most of us have heard in popular discourse about AI's environmental impact. Sadly, most of that information is wrong. It's off by orders of magnitude. My guest today is Andy Masley. Andy is the director of Effective Altruism DC and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:13","seconds":73,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"a former physics teacher who's become one of the most thorough fact checkers of AI environmental claims. Andy, one of the first articles I read from you was early this year titled Using ChatGPT is not bad for the environment. That is a bold claim in today's discourse.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":4,"time":"1:30","seconds":90,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"Welcome to the show. Great to have you here. Thanks so much, Conor. Yeah, super excited to be here and talking about this topic that I've been pretty obsessed with over the past year. Like you said, I've also been to those parties. Also gotten those looks. A big part of this is just motivated by helping other people in these conversations and easing out like my fellow environmentalists","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":5,"time":"1:46","seconds":106,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"from something that I'm really honestly pretty worried is distracting them and, like, leading them down what I think is a bad path. One other flag here as we go forward in this conversation is that, for any listeners, I'm definitely not asking for zero scrutiny of AI or its environmental impact along every single axis.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":6,"time":"2:01","seconds":121,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And basically just saying that a lot of the common wisdom that you hear at these parties is pretty off base. And so basically just trying to correct the record there. I completely agreed. My, first podcast that I hosted was called Growing the Green Economy, talking about climate change and how to have a more effective, green future. And this is something I, you know, have done political activism on at a lower level as well. So it's fantastic to see people who are in this space","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":7,"time":"2:25","seconds":145,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"pushing back because I think you and I both agree like, you know, there are things we need to with AI, we need to guardrail it, we need to make sure it is responsible. We should make sure it's not having horrific climate impacts. But also if I'm really worried about something, it's probably our almond growth, our alfalfa growing rice in California. There are things that are much more water intensive and we're going get into a lot of those statistics and dive into it. But I wanna start with what really made us do this episode, which is,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":8,"time":"2:53","seconds":173,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"you going a little viral recently. Yeah, yeah, At least in AI Twitter. You published a detailed analysis of Karen Howe's book Empire of AI that many of you have potentially read or heard about, that's been getting a lot of attention. And you found what you called the single most most egregious math mistake you've ever seen in a book about AI and the environment. So, this feels like the perfect place to start because it really crystallizes what's wrong about this conversation.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":9,"time":"3:19","seconds":199,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Can you walk us through what you found?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":10,"time":"3:22","seconds":202,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"Yeah. I I will flag super quick. That's the most egregious mistake that I've personally discovered on my own. I'm sure there have been other things So that I've totally stumbled basically, I write a lot about AI and the environment, as you said, and in the past few months, especially, I've been really doing a lot of deep dives on AI and water use, where I've come to the conclusion that AI data centers just really don't seem to be a significant issue for water in The United States. As you had mentioned, there are lot of other big culprits. My personal big villain in a lot of these conversations is actually animal agriculture.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":11,"time":"3:51","seconds":231,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"I have my own biases here where I'm a vegan for animal welfare reasons. And so, like, there are these other reasons I'm motivated to do this. But I would encourage your listeners, if you're worried about water use in America, like, maybe just look into that first before you get into the AI stuff. But basically, after covering AI water use in America for a while and coming to the conclusion that it's really not an issue here, I get a lot of feedback from a lot of different readers that maybe this is the case, but they're also under the impression that in other countries, this could be a much bigger deal. Like, I'd recently had a conversation with someone from India who had said that data centers are actually causing problems there. And so I was thinking, okay,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":12,"time":"4:28","seconds":268,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"I don't know very much about countries that are very different from America, especially very poor countries. I'd like to know the deal. Where should I look for this? And a bunch of people had recommended this one chapter in the book Empire of AI, and I was like, oh, you know, this is a really popular book, seems to be influencing the conversation a lot, so I should sit sit down and read this and just understand the case that these data centers are harming other countries a lot. And I don't have a final take on that, like, could very well be that data centers in other countries are harming things. I haven't done the full deep dive on every last country, but I I have to admit, every single place that I saw,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":13,"time":"5:02","seconds":302,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"the book cover water in this one chapter specifically, every single time water was mentioned, I came away thinking that the reader would be left with a much worse understanding than they came in with. So this is more than just the one stumble I saw, as someone covering this for a while. There were a bunch of other places, including the very first place where water is introduced, where it said that by 2027,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":14,"time":"5:24","seconds":324,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"AI will consume about half as much water as all Britain uses. And using just like the normal water management definition of consumption, the study that the book was referencing actually says that all AI together in the world will only be about 5% of Britain, which again is not nothing. But again, Like five it's or 50% is a Yeah. Again, is like an order of magnitude issue. And like that other,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":15,"time":"5:45","seconds":345,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"like 90% of the water is actually gonna be like taken and used in power plants off-site and then returned to the source unaffected. And I think, again, this is a place where readers are just kind of being left with, a bad misunderstanding. But yeah, the main way that I personally blew up on Twitter in the last few days is I stumbled on a specific mistake that the author made. And I don't attribute malice to the author, by the way. It seems like Karen Howe has done a lot of, like, really great reporting in other ways. I definitely don't want this to be a commentary on the broader book overall, because I haven't read most of it. I had read her, coverage of, like, OpenAI, Sam Altman, like, drama stuff, I found that pretty useful, honestly. So again, don't want to say that the entire book is bad, like She had some legitimately really interesting insider access and perspectives on the people side, whether you agree with her takes on it, fair enough, but like there there's interesting nuggets there for sure. Yeah. And so, I definitely don't wanna make the claim that the entire book is bad, that people shouldn't read it, or that it's invalidated in any other way. But I do really wanna push that if you come away from this one chapter,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":16,"time":"6:46","seconds":406,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"it's very, very likely that you're actually coming away with a much worse understanding of AI water use than you're coming in with. I was just pretty consistently disappointed with the coverage there. And so, like, people can read my blog post for my full arguments. The main thing I had stumbled over is halfway through that chapter, she claims that kind of the main focal point data center of the entire chapter is using as much water as a thousand times this community of 88,000 people living in this area of Santiago in Chile specifically,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":17,"time":"7:15","seconds":435,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"and that water activists have to be, like, basically clawing the water back tooth and nail and fighting with everything they've got against this really powerful corporation coming in from outside to guzzle up all of the water. This is actually off by a factor of about 4,500, Specifically, there were two big issues that happened. The first one, which the author addressed directly, and I was very grateful that she addressed it quickly, was that her source, the person who had sent her the information, had mixed up liters and meters cubed. Like, a meter cubed is a thousand liters specifically,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":18,"time":"7:46","seconds":466,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"and this went unnoticed. I was kind of surprised at how few people noticed this because the number that she gave for this community basically implied that the average person there was consuming about point one liters a day, which is something like a fifth of a single bottle of water, which, you know- They'd all be dead. They would all be dead, basically. And like, this isn't just for drinking water. This is like everything that their household uses water for, as well as like commercial buildings and stuff. And so that was the first major error where there was a massive mix up in units of measure. And so, again, I don't wanna say that I know for a fact what was going through the author or her editor's head. Here, like, seems pretty likely that this was an honest mistake. I do have to say that I was pretty stunned that this didn't get caught by anyone doing a sanity check. Like, this book has been out for about six months. Right now, it's been reviewed by a lot of very prominent","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":19,"time":"8:32","seconds":512,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"news organizations and recommended a lot. And again, I'm not saying they shouldn't have recommended the book, but I'm just kind of surprised that no one anywhere just emailed the author to be like, oh, hey, by the way, this central claim you're making is pretty clearly wrong on the water thing. There's Did actually you do some the math, basically? Yeah. Did you do the math, basically? And did you just sanity check this? And so I was pretty stunned that after six months of this book being out, I was the first person to stumble over that. And my general claim in the post isn't so much that, like, this invalidates the book. I'm more focusing on just how bad the current conversation about AI and the environment and especially water is right now because so many of these numbers are just circulating around and so many of these intuitions","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":20,"time":"9:10","seconds":550,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"are bouncing around and leaving people with really wild misunderstandings of what's going on with AI and data centers. And I do think that overestimating AI water use actually carries its own potential negative environmental impacts. This part I haven't actually looked into super closely, but from what I can tell, activist pressure on this data center, potentially based on this misunderstanding,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":21,"time":"9:30","seconds":570,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"convinced Google to use an air cooling system instead of a water cooling system for the data center. Air cooling actually takes a lot more energy than water, and so as a result, I suspect that, like, the CO two emissions of this data center are actually way higher than they would have otherwise been. And again, it might be that being off by a factor of 4,500,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":22,"time":"9:49","seconds":589,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"the data center still my claim is that it's using about 25% of the water in this one specific section of Santiago, which is definitely not nothing. But from what I can tell, it's about 3% of the water of the entire municipal water system. And again, if you look at that and you ask, would we rather use about 3% of the water here versus drastically increasing the emissions? My claim is that environmentalists at least need to be really well informed about this to make good decisions because a lot of environmentalism comes with these kinds of trade offs. So Policy is trade offs. And if we don't have the right numbers to understand those trade offs, we're gonna make mistakes, period. Yeah. And so, my claim is that this really matters. This reflects pretty badly. Again, not necessarily on the rest of the book, but definitely on the current broader information environment","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":23,"time":"10:34","seconds":634,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"about AI and the environment, and especially around water use. And so, I was pretty shocked that I was the first reader to comment on this, and I really wanna raise the standards of the debate a little bit. Where, again, I don't wanna say AI deserves zero scrutiny, but I do wanna say that environmentalists being misled matters a lot, because environmentalism involves a lot of really difficult complex trade offs involving numbers.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":24,"time":"10:54","seconds":654,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"And so,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":25,"time":"10:55","seconds":655,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"if we're getting these huge questions wrong, there's potentially a lot of other ways that the debate is just getting really tripped up. I have to give Karen some credit for her response to you once you called her out. Like, she did say, look, like, let's look at this and you know, I'm checking on this number. It does seem like the math may be off here. However, she also then followed that up with a variety of","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":26,"time":"11:16","seconds":676,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"arguably not well fact checked additional claims about AI water usage as if she didn't want to give up the point specifically. And Karen, if you're listening to this, you want come on and give your perspective too, we'd have happy to have a conversation, but we need to have a real conversation on the facts, not about the idea of what you want the facts to be. And I worry that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":27,"time":"11:37","seconds":697,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"the kind of information environment as you put it has taken hold of like AI is bad for the environment because we choose to believe it's bad versus AI has pros and cons to it and we need to make sure that data centers are efficient but there can be a lot of value delivered by it. And I, I worry that this has just become the narrative and that it's hard to push back on it feels like. Yeah. Also definitely want to express a lot of gratitude.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":28,"time":"12:03","seconds":723,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"Karen was super cordial and very quick to respond in Twitter threads and on my blog about the main thing, and was very quick to send me, here's the source that I was working with for, you know, here's the number that the source provided to me specifically. And so that was all really useful. And I think she's engaged very well. In the past seventy two hours, I've definitely received a lot of Twitter comments that did not engage in good faith and were very goofy. That was exciting. And so Yeah. Definitely. And so I think like, Karen really stood out, especially compared to a lot of other people I've interacted with in the past on this as being extremely nice, very direct about this one issue.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":29,"time":"12:38","seconds":758,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"And I also just wanna flag that I both wanna make sure that a lot of people know that this issue happened because I think this has really influenced the debate. Like, this book was one of the most popular skeptical takes on AI and the environment in the last year in general. And so, like, I do wanna correct the record on this, which is why I was so public about this. But I also wanna just flag that this must have really sucked. Like, I, you know, I don't wanna like bully or be mean here. And so, like, drawing public attention on this, I wanna try to balance like, hey, it's really important that we correct the record, but I also don't wanna like come off as trying to attack like Karen's public online presence more broadly. And so, I'm trying to balance this all. Legitimately a very good reporter in a lot of areas. I think it it is telling as you put it that, you know, this book that has thousands of Amazon reviews was seemingly peer reviewed. I presume quite well edited, has now become widely cited and discussed","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":30,"time":"13:28","seconds":808,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"that no one else identified this or at least publicly identified this error in the last several months. Like, what what does that tell you about the conversation and the information environment we're dealing with? Obviously,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":31,"time":"13:39","seconds":819,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"like, I I genuinely think this number issue was a mistake. Like, I I think it would be ridiculous to intentionally put like an incorrect number like this in. I will say that like, Karen does actually have a degree in mechanical engineering from MIT. So I I do think that, like, it's reasonable to expect that we get the math right here. I think a lot of journalists","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":32,"time":"13:57","seconds":837,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"are kind of relying on this built up common wisdom that has come out of a lot of different articles on this in the past. Like, if you just look at a lot of different coverage of AI and water specifically, a lot of the coverage frames it as being a huge disaster right now, where there are all these reports of these kind of abstract, very large amounts of gallons of water being used. It's like totally understandable if you're kind of running with this and you're running with this intuition that most people that you trust are saying is correct. Like it makes sense to potentially gloss over some of the specific facts on this.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":33,"time":"14:27","seconds":867,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And So you think it was more of a like, Hey, I trust these people already.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":34,"time":"14:30","seconds":870,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"We've a lot of work to do or just kind of moving forward. Yeah. And honestly, also just like perceiving AI as a bad guy more broadly. Like, I think if you perceive like, this is this act of colonialism, it's this like evil new tech that isn't benefiting people and is only harming people. I think, like, you're gonna be more inclined to also potentially jump on numbers that look bad without necessarily triple triple checking them. So that's my message. It's really easy to turn this into a tribalism argument of like, AI bad, AI good, we're not gonna actually look at the details of it. Yeah. And so I will flag like based on all that, like, again, I'm not trying to be mean or attribute any malice. There were like two other places with the reply that I was also disappointed with. The first disappointment was that Karen had attributed a lot of our other disagreements","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":35,"time":"15:16","seconds":916,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"entirely to philosophical definitions, and I mostly don't think this is true. Actually, I think I make a good case in the post that there's one other specific place where there's a claim about how much water AI will use in 2027 that I think based on any reasonable definition of what it means to consume water is actually off by an order of magnitude as well. And so I am asking for that correction as well, basically.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":36,"time":"15:37","seconds":937,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"And so far, I don't see any indication that that's coming, but maybe that will change. And then the other complaint I've had basically is, yeah, she then went on to share a lot of other articles about how, oh, but AI is still very bad for water use for all these other reasons. And I'd lie I have to say most of the articles that she had shared from Bloomberg, I've had similar issues with. I've actually covered this in the past where they'll basically just make these big maps of The US of where data centers have been built in water stressed areas without sharing what proportion of the water that area the data center is using.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":37,"time":"16:09","seconds":969,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"And a lot of the times, if you look into it, one, these are very small proportions of the water. Two, there are lot of other industries that use a lot of water in those areas because even cities built in water stressed areas need taxable industries and stuff, and so they build a lot of other stuff. There's also, like, water parks and golf courses and other kind of egregious,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":38,"time":"16:26","seconds":986,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"like, I I would consider kind of wasteful uses of water in these very water stressed areas. And so We we can do a whole separate episode or just the two of us talking about golf courses and in my opinion, it's good off. Yeah. Yeah. I know some folks here listening are probably big golf fans. I'm not gonna get into that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Again, like, if you want like a big water bad guy, like, maybe just focus a little bit more on golf courses, obviously. So, yeah, those were the other two places that I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":39,"time":"16:48","seconds":1008,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"wish the reply had been a little bit better, where it's like, I would like you to basically acknowledge that if you were off by this magnitude, this tells you something about your broader narrative as well. Like, the central theme of that chapter specifically is that AI water use is this extension of brutal colonialism that happened in this country, where, like, there's a lot of mention of how elders have these memories of really horrific","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":40,"time":"17:11","seconds":1031,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"crimes against humanity happening in the region. And like, it's then kind of framed as like, oh, and AI is this new thing that's drinking up all the water by these big colonialist, you know, entities. And I kinda wanna say that like, this claim seems to be somewhat invalidated by the idea that this data center is actually using such a small part rather than such a large part of the overall city's water, basically. And so, I would've liked some kind of acknowledgment, but I realize,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":41,"time":"17:35","seconds":1055,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"the author has also probably had a really wild seventy two hours. Like, I wouldn't have wanted this much attention on myself personally. So I I wanna give a lot of grace here and like, expect that like, you know, maybe in the next few weeks or months, like some additional clarification will this podcast probably isn't gonna come out for three or four days. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's possible we'll see even updates, since then. And so I'll try to amend and add something to it, but","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":42,"time":"17:56","seconds":1076,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"it does feel like a really difficult conversation because to some extent, this debate has kind of turned into the classic two camps of like, you know, this is good, this is bad. In many cases, are just trying to find supporting evidence for their claims without actually interrogating their claims. This is very common where, you know, emotions and viewpoints and your, your preconceived notions","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":43,"time":"18:20","seconds":1100,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"can kind of lead you down this path. I've done this myself in many cases in my life. Yeah, same. So, think it's really important to be critical and thoughtful about how do we push back and unwind this narrative because simply saying, hey, look, we're gonna attack you on these facts and it's an attack is not going to work for us long term. If we want to ensure AI is something that is beneficial for, for everyone. So, from your perspective,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":44,"time":"18:49","seconds":1129,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"how do you think people who legitimately want to have the conversation about the potential benefits of AI, what it can do for people and also avoiding the drawbacks? How should they be pushing back on this challenging narrative?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":45,"time":"19:03","seconds":1143,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"I think that AI is going to bring a lot of benefits and a lot of risks and negatives. Like, wanna flag that I'm around a lot of people who are not just gung ho. We should just, you know, build out data science and AI","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":46,"time":"19:14","seconds":1154,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"sort of p doom of like, this has potential really negative effects. Exactly. And even outside of like very extreme","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":47,"time":"19:20","seconds":1160,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"p doom situations, even if all of that goes well, I can totally see a lot of people saying, oh, AI progress in the next few years might erode a lot of other just important aspects of society, ways we can I have opinions about the surveillance state, I'll say? Like, there's plenty of books of other concerns, and I I think it's really legitimate to have conversations. Every technology","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":48,"time":"19:37","seconds":1177,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Mhmm. Creates a lot of change and that change can cause upheaval,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":49,"time":"19:40","seconds":1180,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"positive and negative. Yeah. And so there's a ton I wanna say about this. I think first of all, if you are going to criticize such a broad general new technology like AI, it's just really important to actually focus on what's causing harm because everybody does have a limited amount of bandwidth for thinking about this stuff correctly. And if you hyper focus on, oh, AI is using some water, one, that might just push more data centers to use air cooling, which in my opinion is actually worse for the environment- Agreed. For the most part. And also, it might just distract from all these other things. Like, I guess, if I think about, like, oh, you know, so and so government is now using a much more effective system of surveillance on its people using advanced AI, and also every time they do that, they use a few drops of water. I actually think that second point kind of dilutes, you know, in kind of a punny way,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":50,"time":"20:29","seconds":1229,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"the main argument. Like, if these things are happening and these bad things are happening, I I don't actually think just slathering on any and all additional criticisms are going, is going to help your side. Like, I've been vegan for ten years personally. I'm pretty worried about the state of animal welfare in America. And if I see someone eating a chicken sandwich, as an example,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":51,"time":"20:49","seconds":1249,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"I actually think it's kind of not super useful to say, oh, and that chicken sandwich also has a slight environmental cost, because it's not actually very bad. Chickens aren't especially bad for the environment. My claim is mostly just that they're they're suffering a lot, basically. And so, because AI is gonna come with all these new huge problems and potential good things about it as well, I think just getting this right is gonna matter a lot, because we're gonna be faced with a ton of trade offs in what to think about and do. And if the debate is being so overwhelmed with things that I just think aren't real and are problems that are basically a distraction,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":52,"time":"21:20","seconds":1280,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"I think that's mostly just gonna cause us to make worse decisions. And this matters for the environment more broadly as well. Something I try to get across in my writing a lot is that very few people actually think about the environment at all. The average American seems to have a few conversations about climate change every year. And so if you're so fired up about climate and energy and water stuff that you're focusing on it enough to really worry about AI, I would say that your time is actually very precious because you're one of a small minority of people who are actually doing this. And I really don't want your attention to be too focused on something that might not actually add up. And then the very last thing I'll say is that, yeah, I think people have unfortunately developed","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":53,"time":"21:55","seconds":1315,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"a very kind of, like, team y way of thinking about this where people will see me saying, oh, AI water use isn't a big deal and assume, oh, Andy must be some awful tech bro who's trying to push this technology on us. And I associate him with every other bad thing that's happened with AI, and he's trying to attack one of my side's key arguments, and so therefore, he must be bad. And I just don't think this argument is gonna work as we go forward because AI is just such a general technology that's gonna affect so much in so many different ways that thinking about it as, we need to make sure that our team always wins regardless of the strength of our argument is just gonna lead us into a lot of goofy and I think mostly incorrect conclusions. So these are all worries I have that I think, honestly, the AI water use conversation is really helpful with just because it's I think it's such a glaring massive error in how people are thinking that if we can't even get this right, I'm pretty worried about society's broader ability to just adjust to AI systems coming online.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":54,"time":"22:48","seconds":1368,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I saw a couple of these responses to you where people were basically saying, oh, Andy's a tech bro. Andy is an effective altruist. Sure, sure. We just can't trust him. Know, like that, you know, been proven wrong, ignore Let's maybe talk a bit about your background and contextualize this. I, and I know some folks who aren't familiar with EA as much like, you taught physics for years.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":55,"time":"23:07","seconds":1387,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Mhmm. You have quite a bit of experience diving into the numbers, whether it's on climate or other topics. But maybe let's start broader. For folks who aren't familiar, what is effective altruism or EA and why were some folks attacking you for that? Yeah. There's a ton to say about that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":56,"time":"23:26","seconds":1406,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"So EA very generally is a broad movement, that's very heterogeneous. I would say it's actually kind of eight or nine unrelated movements all under the same similar umbrella. The main idea is that you should try your best to use evidence and reason and debate to figure out where you can do the very most good with either your charitable donations or the time that you spend in your career, basically.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":57,"time":"23:51","seconds":1431,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"And so EAs in general, have landed on three big buckets of places that might have the very most positive impact on the world that other people might be missing. Another key aspect of EA before I go on actually is the idea that a lot of people just actually don't think about this very much. They kind of just fall into whatever local To your point about how many conversations about climate change am I having per year on an African American, for example. Exactly. 100. Yeah. And basically, lot of people will kind of just be attracted to, oh, this thing makes a lot of money or this thing will give me a lot of social status, and so this is what I'm gonna do, you know? And I think that's totally understandable. I think the average person is probably having a pretty net positive effect on the world, so I'm not saying that's all bad. But the basic claim is that because","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":58,"time":"24:31","seconds":1471,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"either markets or society doesn't price a lot of other problems in in the way that maybe they should be, there's often gonna be a lot of value left on the ground for people who just step back and just look at the numbers. This comes up a lot in global health conversations in EA, about the idea that almost nowhere you can donate, will do nearly as much good as just donating to charities that alleviate malaria, specifically Malaria, for example, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Like something like five hundred thousand people a year are still dying of malaria, and I think that's news to a lot of","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":59,"time":"25:00","seconds":1500,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"million people are dying of this disease. So there are probably a lot of other invisible conversations that you can bump into, or invisible problems that you can bump into, if you just step back and look at the numbers, basically. The way that EA gets really controversial really fast, which I I totally, actually, I wanna flag here that e- if you've enjoyed my writing, I'm very grateful for that. I'm not really trying to attribute,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":60,"time":"25:20","seconds":1520,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"like, every EA argument to me or, like, endorse everything that's happened in EA here. Want you to approach this kind of skeptically, where I'm talking about a very specific, very data driven thing. And while I take other EA arguments seriously, I don't really want you to come in being, oh, because I like Andy on this one thing, I should defer to him on these other things as well. So that being said, the way that EA gets really controversial, really fast, is the general claim that,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":61,"time":"25:46","seconds":1546,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"like one other area people might be missing a lot is that if we're able to reproduce a lot of what happens in the human mind around intelligence in machines specifically, this could actually be really drastically destabilizing for a huge number of ways and could even cause like human extinction specifically. I have my own kind of very agnostic takes on a lot of specific EA arguments about this. Like This is my that idea of P doom around AI of like, is society going to end? Are we going to ruin things? And I know many of us have had those conversations. Yeah. Exactly. And like, gun to my head, my own, like, p doom from AI is probably pretty low. Like, there are a lot of specific EA arguments I take a little bit less seriously. Like, that's a whole separate conversation we probably shouldn't get into here right now. But, basically, the reason why a lot of people are skeptical of me is that EAs in general have been associated with pushing this idea that the main thing that matters for AI is preventing human extinction. And there are a lot of different reasons for that. Some EAs will go so far as like, oh, the human race and intelligence","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":62,"time":"26:43","seconds":1603,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"more broadly could just last for such a long time, and there could be so much good in the far future that it's very, very important to prevent us from going extinct, basically. And so, everything else has to kind of be subsumed by that worry about extinction specifically. And so, any other issue related to AI, like, say, water, just doesn't matter compared to extinction specifically.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":63,"time":"27:04","seconds":1624,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"And I do take this criticism of EA pretty seriously, actually. Like, I do worry that it's very, very easy to meme yourself into thinking that, like, what you're doing is much more important than what what everybody else is working on. And I definitely encourage some caution and skepticism there. But at the same time, I I just wanna flag that, like, I'm not one of these people who think that there's an incredibly high chance that AI is going to kill us all anytime soon.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":64,"time":"27:28","seconds":1648,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"And I think I'm approaching this honestly, and I actually just do give a lot of attention to other problems besides AI extinction risk. Like, if you look at my blog, I focus on a lot of other just things that are bothering me day to day personally. I think this comes back to the tribalism or teeny arguments that we hear a lot of these days. And Yeah. Part of this, can talk about the echo chamber of the internet and you know, how we fuel, you know, outrage to drive engagement.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":65,"time":"27:50","seconds":1670,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Plenty of conversations that we had about that. But- Yeah. Regardless, I think it's really easy to tar someone as an EA, as a tech pro, as a Democrat, as whatever you want to and then attach all these other labels- Yeah. That are nebulously associated with them in a word cloud but may not actually matter to that individual and may not actually be true with that individual and how they think and approach the world.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":66,"time":"28:12","seconds":1692,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I, I definitely saw a couple of folks who were arguing that because you are at all attached to AAEA as a movement and like, should just ignore your claims around water and climate. Mhmm. Which I would argue reading your work are quite well researched and and thought A, I wonder how how should we approach this debate around climate impacts of AI and actually have a,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":67,"time":"28:41","seconds":1721,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I guess a serious conversation where hopefully we can talk about the pros and cons. How do we deflate this, this tribalism that's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":68,"time":"28:50","seconds":1730,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"Yeah. There's a lot to say about that. Two things is that I'm really not asking for any kind of difference here. I I say a lot of the times that I'm like a guy with a sub stack, you know, I'm really not flashing my Yeah, credentials exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The dream. So, yeah, I'm not really flashing my credentials anywhere. I'm not saying like, oh, you know, because I have x, or z background, you definitely need to listen to me. Like, I will push a little bit that I was a physics teacher for seven years. I know what a watt hour is. I have a lot of experience explaining this to students and stuff like that. And so that's useful to me. But I'm really not trying to flash any kind of credentials here. I'm just saying, here's my argument. Here are all my sources. You can dig into this and see what you think. And so far, has actually been really surprisingly useful to me. The second thing is that I actually think, for me personally, I've tried to really divorce","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":69,"time":"29:35","seconds":1775,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"this specific talking point from EA more broadly. Like, I do think that basic effective altruist intuitions are helping me here quite a bit. Like, it's important to actually dig into the numbers, to understand where the real problems are, and those two intuitions are guiding me a lot in my basic writing on AI and water use. Like, the basic idea is, oh, a lot of people can be getting some simple number stuff wrong. And if you just look into this, you can actually make a pretty compelling case. So in that way, I'm being influenced a lot by effective altruism. But I wanna be clear too","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":70,"time":"30:02","seconds":1802,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"that I'm really not trying to push the idea that, oh, if you take me seriously on this, you should also buy my arguments about AI extinction risk or other catastrophic issues with AI or other things related to EA, specifically. So one way of kind of toning down the tribal conversation, I think, is trying to just be like, I'm not really trying to make this a win for my side. Like, those same people who are attacking me were also writing as if I was trying to completely destroy Karen Howe's whole reputation","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":71,"time":"30:28","seconds":1828,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"or whatever. And what I'm trying to do is basically just address a really, really big central claim in this one chapter that has a huge amount of influence on the broader conversation. And I'm not really invested in litigating Karen Howe's personal character outside of this. And, I think she's been a pretty great reporter in a lot of other cases. I think she, along with a lot of other reporters, kind of just meme themselves","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":72,"time":"30:50","seconds":1850,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"into a bad take on this one specific topic. I'm also trying to get across that I'm not looking to like dunk on anti AI people here or say that, oh look, anyone worried about this is bad and we should ignore that and just Oh, we need to get our facts right. Exactly. And one other thing I had said is that most misinformation often harms your own side. I think like some people had commented and replied to me and said like, oh, effective altruists have also said a lot of, like, really wildly off or really silly or stupid things, and I totally agree with that. Like, there's been a lot of goofy things that that has happened in a space so worried about these kind of weird speculative far off risks specifically.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":73,"time":"31:26","seconds":1886,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"And, like, a lot of people have said things that I really, really don't endorse. Like, some person had pulled out, this one quote that I think got a basic take about climate change wildly off that implied that even 15 degrees of warming, we would basically be okay. I think that's a crazy take. To be clear, I think that's really wildly off. But that actually kinda got my point across in some ways where it's like, yeah, misinformation actually primarily harms your own side, and we should actually be really careful to police this stuff. And I see a lot of allies in people who are pretty worried about AI for other reasons, you know, like people who see it coming for their jobs, who are worried about long term, like labor relations and other things or surveillance and things like that. And I would like these people with very valid concerns about AI to actually just have the facts right and not push things about, oh, and it uses x amount of water, where if you actually just poke at that and discover that's not a problem, that might actually be somewhat invalidating of other claims that they're making. So, yeah, I I am pretty big on just like, we're all very prone to tribal thinking, it's bad, but I actually just think that tribal thinking is gonna be really","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-73","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":74,"time":"32:24","seconds":1944,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"it's gonna really harm everyone in the debate as all these questions come more and more online. Just like getting the facts right is gonna matter because that's gonna correlate in some ways with whether we're gonna be able to fix the actual, very real problems with AI, even outside of like kind of wacky, far off like extinction risk stuff and stuff like that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-74","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":75,"time":"32:42","seconds":1962,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I'll say, I hope listeners of the show know this already, but I personally feel it's important to have these conversations about the details because it is very easy for transformative technologies to cause negative externalities if we don't address them and think them through. And I think we've all seen examples of AI being ineffective or causing harm in some cases. You know, the obvious examples of this are things like the psychosis engagement around chatbots that some people have had, like there are legitimate worries here. There are people who were already struggling, who have been taken out negative paths. We have to, as an industry, be able to talk about how do we make this more responsible? How do we guardrail against us? How do we avoid this? Because AI has this amazing opportunity to improve things for us, but we have to put the work in to have the infrastructure be correct, observe and understand, guardrail and protect against these, these negative challenges.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-75","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":76,"time":"33:36","seconds":2016,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And understanding what it costs to, you know, both from a dollar's perspective, both from a climate perspective, actually build these systems is important as part of that. And as I mentioned at the start of the show, one of the things that I first saw from you was this article using chat GPT is not for the environment. And that is obviously fighting against a really strong current. Can","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-76","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":77,"time":"33:56","seconds":2036,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"you tell me a bit about this broader discussion piece? Because obviously we've zoomed in a bit on the recent conversation.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-77","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":78,"time":"34:02","seconds":2042,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"Yeah. So back in January, I was having the same experience you described in the intro where I was going to a lot of parties and a lot of people almost every time ChatGPT came up, the question that people were really worried about, the thing that would come up over and over is, oh, it uses so much energy or it's so bad for the environment. How could you ever possibly use that? I was finding in conversations that, you know, I didn't consider myself an expert at the time, but I was noticing right away that a lot of the basic points people were making were very strange and basically reflective of a bad way of thinking about climate more broadly. So as an example, people would say, oh, it's using 10 times as much energy as a Google search. And my reaction to this is always,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-78","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":79,"time":"34:42","seconds":2082,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"if I had told you a few years ago that I had done a thousand Google searches today, would your first reaction to me be, you must not care about the environment you sing of. No, I'd ask you like, what were you researching? Like, man, you have spent a lot of time on Google today. Yeah. In fact, doing a thousand Google searches would probably be a sign that my emissions were actually way lower that day because just sitting around on your computer, Did you I drive somewhere that day? Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. It uses way less energy than normal. And so, was finding that people didn't have these intuitions about,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-79","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":80,"time":"35:11","seconds":2111,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"oh, basically anything you do on the computer is usually gonna carry way less of a climate cost than most other things, just because computing is just so wildly energy efficient compared to most things that we do. And I was finding that I actually just couldn't really get a lot of these basic intuitions through to people at parties where, you know, I would go into physics teacher mode a little bit and be like, oh, this is how much a watt hour is. Here's a comparison to other things. But I think they had that same teamy reaction to me where they're like, oh, this guy's probably just some tech bro. He doesn't really care about the environment, so he's trying to trick me. Because every other","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-80","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":81,"time":"35:43","seconds":2143,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"article I've read about this, has told me the opposite of what this guy's saying. So he must be lying. So I started to do some deep dives into how this was being covered. The first ever article I read about this was from earth.org. This was written way back in 2023. And even there, there was this really weird framing where the article announced that all of ChatGPC together is now using two times as much energy as a whole person.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-81","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":82,"time":"36:06","seconds":2166,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"And there, I was thinking, oh, well, that's not a surprise. This is a really popular app already. It's taken the world by storm. The idea that this is using as much as two people just doesn't that shouldn't be a big gut show for ChatGPT. Obviously, since then, ChatGPT has completely exploded. It's now using on the order of maybe a 100,000 people. I don't have the exact number, obviously, but, you know, that's wildly off. But even there,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-82","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":83,"time":"36:30","seconds":2190,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"I was starting to notice that everywhere I went, I was trying to find some article that explained, hey, here's putting this number in context. Just if you are worried about the climate, how should you worry about these incredibly small impacts that you're having? And I wasn't finding that, and so I started to put together my own argument. And I kind of wanted this to just be something that I would keep in the back of my pocket if conversations came up. I didn't actually expect it to get much viewership. If people look back at my blog, you'll notice I've made a few other big arguments. Like, I have a big piece on animal welfare,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-83","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":84,"time":"36:58","seconds":2218,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"where I was trying to just be like, you know, I don't expect to get too many readers, but if anybody asks me, I wanna have my case basically in one place. And this full argument with a bunch of different angles and a bunch of different opinions I shared about how to think about this actually really blew up.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-84","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":85,"time":"37:12","seconds":2232,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Got mentioned in a lot of different places, was getting a lot of readers very fast and a lot of people giving me feedback. So, we're definitely gonna link these articles in the show notes because I I think they're great sources to go read and I I don't want to have a, you know, a few minute conversation speak for a a well researched and written article. But if you were to give folks a couple of quick comparisons for when they do have that conversation at a party. Let let's say I'm I'm the one and I I come up to you and I go, Andy, I really think that using ChatGPT as much as you are or using another AI product as much as you are is is bad for the environment. How are you responding to me? Yeah. So there are two different ways to go. I actually usually step back and say,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-85","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":86,"time":"37:52","seconds":2272,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"based on everything that we know right now, I try to add up every last way that using a chatbot harms the environment. So it's not just the cost of inference, the in the moment answer that you get to your question. You also have to add in the cost of cooling, maybe dividing the cost of training by the number of prompts the chatbot will receive, the cost of transmitting the data to your computer,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-86","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":87,"time":"38:15","seconds":2295,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"and the embodied carbon of actually making the AI chips. And once you add up all these together and you try to get the absolute most costly account of the median chat GPT prompt, my best estimate based on all the numbers we have is that that prompt is probably going to cause about one one hundred and fifty thousandth of your daily emissions. Like, after all of that, this is about what it adds up to. And so","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-87","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":88,"time":"38:39","seconds":2319,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"if you think about it that way and you think, okay, to increase my daily emissions by 1%, I would need to send about a thousand regular chatbot prompts. Once you start to think about it like that, it actually seems very, very hard to raise your emissions or water use at all using these chatbots. Because if you're sitting all day just sending a thousand prompts and reading all the replies, my best guess based on how long Americans take to read, like, the average amount of text.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-88","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":89,"time":"39:08","seconds":2348,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"Altogether, this is probably gonna take you about seven to eight hours or or something. And if you spend eight hours on something that only uses 1% of your emissions, your emissions are actually probably way lower for that day than they would otherwise be. And that's the main thing I'm trying to get across. And I can compare it to other things where like, yeah, using","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-89","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":90,"time":"39:25","seconds":2365,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"ChatGPT, sending a prompt probably emits as much as printing a fifth of a single page of a book, or it's like running a space heater for about half a second, or driving your car for about four feet or something like that. Those all get across the idea too. But I think in that second case, people are thinking like, oh, even though it's very small, it still adds to my emissions. And so any little bit is still gonna So thinking about the replacement is important. Exactly. Yeah. And so I think just putting this all in the overall scale of your daily emissions and water use, the water is actually even crazier, honestly. Like my best estimate right now is that a ChatGPT prompt is probably about one eight hundred thousandth of your daily water use,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-90","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":91,"time":"40:03","seconds":2403,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"mainly because I think most people aren't really factoring in their full water footprint here and just all the different ways water is consumed, not only in their homes, but in the electricity they generate, in the food that they eat, and things like that. And once you add all of that up, it's just really hard to think it would ever be good advice for anyone who's trying to cut their emissions or their water use. Like, hey, you should, you know, cut out your chatbot use. Like, that kind of sounds to me as if I met someone who's really worried about the environment, and I saw them fill a pot of water to boil, you know, to make spaghetti or something. And then all of a sudden, they take this little tiny water dropper, and they're like, oh, I need to save a few of these drops to make sure I'm only using the water I really need,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-91","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":92,"time":"40:42","seconds":2442,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"and I'll save these drops for later. Like, in that case, I would say, oh, there are just so many other things you could worry about. This is just the small, really sad distraction compared to, like, you know, building out renewable energy on the grid and stuff like that, and you just shouldn't fill your life with these just tiny, really insignificant changes that aren't actually gonna do any good, but just make you feel really guilty. And so for the same reason, I definitely don't think everyone needs to use chatbots. Like, you don't want to, that's fine. Like, maybe you have other valid criticisms of them. But if you're if you do wanna use them and you're worried about AI and the environment,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-92","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":93,"time":"41:15","seconds":2475,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"that specifically I say, you're just getting that wrong. They're not going to add to your personal emissions or water use in any significant way. I'm as confident about this as I can be about most things that I believe in general. And I think the common wisdom on this, including from very high up people who make important decisions, is just completely wrong. Like, I read so much about, you know, universities and businesses that are telling people to be, like, quote unquote, responsible and thoughtful with their chatbot usage to not use it too much or in friv frivolous ways. And, like, for me, this kind of reads like they're telling people not to send emails frivolously","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-93","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":94,"time":"41:48","seconds":2508,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"or to, like, play games on their computer frivolously or something like that. Like, they're really not factoring in just how small of a climate cost this is compared to almost everything else that we do. And so, I would really like us to move on from what I see is like a really massive misconception that's still really driving the conversation in a lot of different places, both at parties, but also in like big institutions.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-94","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":95,"time":"42:08","seconds":2528,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. It feels like this idea also of focusing on the demand side, which is so spread out compared to the supply for data center energy is so silly. I would love to have a deep conversation about like, okay, we should be using nuclear, we should be using these other sources of energy instead of, you know, coal or natural gas or oil to power these data centers, or we should be trying to use using hydropower.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-95","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":96,"time":"42:33","seconds":2553,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And you know, honestly love, love to have a deeper grid conversation. That I think there's a legitimate conversation to be had. We should be talking about building baseload anyway. We need to talk about that because there are a variety of externalities from these major industries, but it's not about an individual's usage of these products. And, it just seems like to your point earlier, like we have a limited ability and bandwidth to have these conversations. Let's have them about the actual impacts.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-96","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":97,"time":"42:59","seconds":2579,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"Back when I was in college, there was a general sense that focusing on individual small lifestyle changes just isn't really going to add up compared to big massive systematic changes we need to make to the energy grid specifically. Like, I definitely do try to make personal cuts for the climate, so I'm very confident that my personal CO two emissions are significantly lower than American averages,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-97","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":98,"time":"43:22","seconds":2602,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"where, you know, I live in a city, I live in an apartment, I don't drive super often, and I've been vegan for ten years, all of these things kind of add up in different ways. But all of this, I think, pales in comparison to just a few other things I've been able to do in my life around, like, maybe trying to keep a nuclear power plant open for a little while longer or advocating for solar power in different places and things like that. Like,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-98","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":99,"time":"43:45","seconds":2625,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"people really have no idea sometimes of the scales involved where if you're able to just be a small part of a team of people who get a new solar plant built or who are able to keep a nuclear power plant open, you can have literally hundreds of thousands of times as much impact as I've had over my entire ten years of being vegan, as an example. It's just the numbers are so different that they're comical,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-99","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":100,"time":"44:07","seconds":2647,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"honestly. And so when I see people who are worried about the environment, and they're spending even a fraction of their time trying to litigate hundreds of thousands of their daily emissions, and trying to be like, oh, but if I can just get this down to zero, that will be great. I think that's really sad, honestly. They're missing all these huge, powerful ways that they could be influencing the environment instead. And just this hyper focus on policing your individual","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-100","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":101,"time":"44:30","seconds":2670,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"lifestyle emissions and changes, I think, is mostly a mistake for the climate movement. Like, are just so many huge wins we could be having elsewhere. And this kind of bleeds into the broader data center conversation. So, so far we've mainly been talking about your personal emissions. But yeah, like data centers are definitely at least more of a conversation about now we're talking at the general grid level and what's affecting the grid both on the demand and the supply side.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-101","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":102,"time":"44:53","seconds":2693,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And you brought this up earlier, but there are obvious conversations to be had around efficiency of data centers. You know, the the one with Google was a good example of, look, they've moved from probably a more efficient water cooling to now air cooling of this criticism. And you can look at like Microsoft's new data centers where they're trying to be extremely efficient about water cooling. And there is a variety across these data centers we should be pushing for efficiency. There's a reason there are things like LEED certified buildings that are supposed to be like significantly more,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-102","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":103,"time":"45:21","seconds":2721,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"or less climate intensive and much more efficient in energy usage. That's a great use case for business. There's a huge opportunity around that. There there's in fact a whole industry that can be built around making things more, climate efficient and reducing emissions and long term reducing costs. In fact, we're see we're seeing that in many areas, But too much of this conversation around energy usage and AI is getting bogged down in this","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-103","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":104,"time":"45:43","seconds":2743,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"kind of, almost like disassociated moral argument,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-104","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":105,"time":"45:48","seconds":2748,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"instead of in what are the actual policy impacts we can do. Mhmm. Yeah. The disassociated moral argument, I think, is also pretty difficult for people where they'll I think this is one of the first times people have been thinking about, like, a very large new use of energy and water that they personally do not believe is valuable at all. And to be clear, if I thought that AI didn't have any value value at all, I would be objecting more to big data centers. Like, I think AI has a lot of complex trade offs but there is a lot of value.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-105","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":106,"time":"46:16","seconds":2776,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"But if I thought it was completely valueless, I would both think that, oh, yeah, we sho- probably shouldn't be building like these massive new data centers that are producing nothing. But I also really wouldn't be litigating the personal use of chatbot thing at all for the sake of the environment because there are all these other things we also do in our everyday lives that are kind of quote unquote useless. Like, if you boil just a little bit too much water or you shower for just one second too long, you're probably gonna use way more water than the average ChatGPT user","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-106","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":107,"time":"46:44","seconds":2804,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"uses in a given day, on the chatbot. And so even there, I think if I believe this tech were completely useless, litigating the personal chatbot use, I just think is a complete waste of time, and people should at least be thinking more about data centers rather than, like, what people are doing online. In general, computers are just so wildly energy efficient based on what they're trying to do compared to most other things, like delivering information,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-107","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":108,"time":"47:06","seconds":2826,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"that I just think that almost everything that has to do with computing on a personal level is just a terrible target for the environmentalist movement. Yeah. There is so much opportunity from digital systems, and I I it is important for us to have these broader conversations. I'll say if there's anyone who's listening who is a, you know, on the data center infrastructure side of things, who wants to come on and have a long conversation about energy side and how to make them more efficient, would love to do that. Getting mired down in these arguments about a few","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-108","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":109,"time":"47:32","seconds":2852,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Google searches versus a ChatGPT prompt versus what you all, you're spending your day on. It's just not an effective place for the argument to be. And I hope that we see progress in the coming months from a lot of the activists who I think have gotten distracted, because of their own personal feelings around this. A lot of the AI industry would love to talk about making data centers more efficient.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-109","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":110,"time":"47:52","seconds":2872,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Like, we, we think that we want more data centers. We want to make them more efficient so it costs us less to, to run them so that we can, you know, build better technology and make more of an impact and like, let's have that conversation. I I'm hopeful we kind of start transforming it to a positive one. And Andy, I really appreciate your, your writing and hopefully pushing that in a direction and the conversations you're having. And,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-110","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":111,"time":"48:14","seconds":2894,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"to your point about the to, to impact, like, I think it's clear that the work you're doing here, is making one just simply about the conversation that has sparked with Karen. So hopefully we can see the start to turn here in the coming weeks and months. But I wonder if you have any closing thoughts about the future of this conversation or the future of AI and your own perspective on it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-111","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":112,"time":"48:33","seconds":2913,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"Yeah. A lot to say. I think that my basic ask for most people thinking about this is I suspect that the vast majority of AI's actual impact on the climate will not happen because of data centers specifically. It's probably going to happen both for good and bad because of the way AI is actually used in the real world. I kind of see this as the early days of Amazon as an example, where if we were trying to think about how is Amazon going to impact the environment,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-112","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":113,"time":"49:00","seconds":2940,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"and my assertion was, oh, I mainly wanna look at how much energy it costs to run the Amazon website in data centers. I think that would be a huge mistake. Right? Because almost everything that we do on computers has really outsized influence on the physical world. You know, it determines, you know, where packages get delivered or new, like, routes for delivering them or, like, how much people buy. Like, I suspect that people are buying maybe a lot more frivolous stuff that they might not actually need because of Amazon and stuff. And these are all never done that. I don't know what you're talking about in Amazon. Of course. Yeah. Me neither.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-113","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":114,"time":"49:32","seconds":2972,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"And so I think that for anyone really worried about the climate impacts both positive and negative for AI, I really want them to mostly think about how is using this technology going to impact the environment. And, obviously, again, you know, if I thought that AI were completely useless, I would also be more opposed to the data center build out in general. But I do also want people to be aware that data centers themselves are incredibly energy optimized in general. And so, like, any opposition you have to data centers kind of has to be focused on whether you build them or not in the first place. Like, if you think that AI companies are blowing through huge amounts of energy,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-114","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":115,"time":"50:10","seconds":3010,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"that they don't have to be, that they could optimize things much more, I really think you're massively underestimating just how much money there is in optimizing AI chips and optimizing like what happens in the data center themselves. So this is kind of a separate question from whether the data center should exist in the first place. But at least if you're worried about this, you kind of just have to make the decision at that level of should this data center be built or not. Like, you really shouldn't assume that AI companies","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-115","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":116,"time":"50:35","seconds":3035,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"are just choosing to waste huge amounts of energy and could optimize it much more. Like, that's it becomes kind of comical when you actually read like it feels like this, like, huge, ridiculous engineering achievement that data centers are able to be as efficient as they are. And so, I think, like, for anyone listening to this, again, if you're much more critical of what's happening inside data centers than I am, you should mainly just be thinking about, like, should these be built? Should these not be built? What will there be their outside effects on the grid? Can we make sure that the energy they draw from is greener?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-116","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":117,"time":"51:04","seconds":3064,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"But it really shouldn't be focused at all on like any kind of pressuring AI companies to optimize their energy use more just because, from my perspective at least, the winds are just so tiny there. They're highly incentivized to optimize that energy use already. Like, they Yeah. Yeah. And so, yeah, my two general asks for people thinking about this are one, look into whether AI will on net be good or bad for the climate in the way that it's used.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-117","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":118,"time":"51:27","seconds":3087,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"I lean much more in the direction that specific deep learning apps will actually probably have much bigger positive impacts on climate than anything that's happened in data centers themselves. This is more tenuous, and it's also not directly connected to chatbots specifically, but I'd really like people to form their own opinions there instead of just hyper focusing so much on the cost of individual computations in data centers themselves. And secondly, yeah, just understanding that data centers are already really wildly efficient. And the weird thing about them is that they concentrate such wildly efficient tasks in one place,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-118","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":119,"time":"51:56","seconds":3116,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"rather than the fact that each individual task is burning through too much energy compared to what it could be. So those would be my two, like, general takeaways for people. And obviously, also, like, would appreciate if you subscribed to my blog. I write about all of this in a ton more detail there. I've done a ton of deep dives, so if you're curious about what I'm thinking I highly actually recommend Andy's Substack. Is very and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-119","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":120,"time":"52:15","seconds":3135,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"and interesting. Appreciate it. Thank you. And like, if you've had any disagreements, about what I've said here, I am super open to engaging on this, either in like the comments of my blog or over email and stuff like that. So, I'm just very grateful to be like a big part of this debate in general. It's been really fun for for me and like, yeah, very grateful to be here as well, Conor. Thank you for hosting me. My pleasure. Thank you for for coming on and sharing your your insights and your thought process. And I appreciate the equanimity","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-120","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":121,"time":"52:40","seconds":3160,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"with with which you've approached the conversation. A lot of folks can learn from the approach of like, look, we can criticize a chapter in a book. That doesn't mean we're criticizing everything else. I do want to ask you about this RL impact piece around, reinforcement learning applications. You said you think there are massive potential benefits from that. Just curious, since it's obviously related to your thought process around the climate impacts of AI, what do you see coming there? The basic","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-121","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":122,"time":"53:02","seconds":3182,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"fundamental thing that deep learning specifically is, is basically a way of getting a computer to pick up on complex subtle patterns and react to them in ways that humans can't necessarily program into them. So, like, as an example, I can give a computer I can type out, like, really clear instructions for how to play games of tic tac toe or something like that. But there are a lot of much more subtle kind of tacit knowledge questions that we ourselves don't know how to program into computers,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-122","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":123,"time":"53:30","seconds":3210,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"but that deep learning can kind of get computers to at least basically understand. And so completely separate from the question of chatbots, I think there are just these really wild possibilities for using this specific technology in a huge amount of areas related to AI. Like, if you put a deep learning system in charge of, like, optimizing a building's energy use, it can significantly reduce it because it can can pick up on patterns","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-123","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":124,"time":"53:53","seconds":3233,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"that would kind of require a human constantly watching to see what happens and stuff. AI can, help us a lot with, like, irrigation, detecting leaks, and stuff like that. I actually suspect that deep learning has already probably saved more global water on that than has been used in data centers. Again, this is much more contentious, so I would maybe have to circle back on that to triple check.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-124","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":125,"time":"54:15","seconds":3255,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"In general, the International Energy Agency has a really great report from 2024 where they try to estimate AI's overall climate impacts. And, again, I wanna flag here that this is, like, including all the energy used on chatbots in data centers, and their impacts are mostly coming from non chatbot things, like other deep learning systems. I do think there's a lot of spillover into these other deep learning things just from all the attention that chatbots and AI have been getting and all the money that's flowing into AI more broadly.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-125","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":126,"time":"54:43","seconds":3283,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"But even if you think chatbots are completely useless, the IEA specifically estimates that AI more broadly will probably prevent three to four times as many emissions as are used in all data centers, both for AI and the data centers that support the global Internet as well, just because of all these different potential ways of optimizing things. The other thing that I've been really excited about for about ten years now is called smart grid technology where Yes. The energy grid itself,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-126","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":127,"time":"55:08","seconds":3308,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"kind of knows where to move and save energy. Like, if you actually look how grids have worked throughout most of the twentieth century, it's actually kind of really insane and stupid where, like, you just have this one really big, power plant that's just kind of constantly on and delivering huge amounts of energy everywhere, and it's kind of thoughtless about where it's actually delivered specifically.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-127","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":128,"time":"55:31","seconds":3331,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"And if you're able to deploy a lot of really simple deep learning models or other just basic programming tricks, it doesn't have to be associated with AI at all even. Like, the grid can just kind of understand, oh, if demand fluctuates this much, I should now store this much energy in batteries and stuff like that instead of just trying to send it to this household.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-128","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":129,"time":"55:49","seconds":3349,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"And this will actually enable green, tech and green energy build out much more because the main issue with solar power right now is that it only really works when it's sunny, wind power only really works when it's windy, and if we can have a grid that's like, hey, this is a place where I'm getting a lot of supply of power and maybe not too much demand. So I know to move this all here to these batteries for later. And that can just use really simple deep learning. It might not even rely on AI at all. Just like simple algorithms and stuff like that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-129","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":130,"time":"56:17","seconds":3377,"speaker":"Andy Masley","text":"All of that can just really enable like a much broader green energy build out. So there are a bunch of specific studies on this, like two that I like. Maybe we can link this in like the show notes later, that I would recommend to people. Let's do it. I think that like most people focused on the climate impacts of AI are just way underestimating the potential of these other deep learning systems to just have really wild, outsized climate impacts. Just because honestly, so much of the way we use energy and water right now in general is just incredibly wasteful and really suboptimal.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-130","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":131,"time":"56:46","seconds":3406,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And we could just make that much better if we just deploy these in a few key places. Absolutely. And Andy, thank you so much for this conversation. Hopefully it can prove valuable to many of our listeners who are maybe struggling to articulate their thoughts and rationale for why some of these concerns are overblown, I think it's really important we start shifting the tenor of this conversation. And you've contributed a lot towards that. So so thank you so much for coming on the show and spending your time with us. And and hopefully, if if listeners have enjoyed this and maybe found it valuable, if you know someone who's maybe been a little skeptical, this is a great starting point for a conversation. There is such an opportunity at this industry for, for positive change and we should all be part of shaping that as people who are working in it or interested in it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-131","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":132,"time":"57:27","seconds":3447,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And we need to make sure that the debate around it is happening in a way that is actually conducive to these these positive movements. So Andy, thank you so much for the efforts you're putting in to ensure that it's happening on a factual basis and that we are actually focusing on the right things. Yeah. This was so much fun, Conor. I really appreciate the conversation. Thank you. Yeah. Thanks for coming on. For anyone who's listening and really enjoyed this episode,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-132","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":133,"time":"57:47","seconds":3467,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"let us know who else you think we should have on. We want to do more of these conversations that are more specific to individual areas of AI. And we would also love to hear from you in the ratings and review section of your podcasting app of choice, whether that's Apple Podcasts, where we deeply appreciate five star ratings in particular, but any ratings are great. And any reviews or feedback you want add or in the comments on Spotify,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-133","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":134,"time":"58:08","seconds":3488,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"where you can also rate us five stars, I'll note. So, thank you so much for listening. And if you enjoyed the episode, please go ahead and leave that rating or review or just drop a comment, let us know who you want hear from next. Thanks again, Andy. Yeah. Thanks so much, Conor. Thanks to Galileo for sponsoring this episode. Their new 165 page comprehensive","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-134","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":135,"time":"58:25","seconds":3505,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"guide to mastering multi agent systems is freely available on their website at kaleo.ai and provides you the lens you need to understand when multi agent systems add value versus single agent approaches, how to design them efficiently, and how to build reliable systems that work in production. Download it for free at the link in the show description to discover how to continuously improve your AI agents, identify and avoid common coordination pitfalls,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-135","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley","episode":45,"guid":"fc0072cd-b6bc-492b-8115-70a62e614675","episodeTitle":"Debunking AI's Environmental Panic | Andy Masley","publishedAt":"2025-11-26","segmentIndex":136,"time":"58:57","seconds":3537,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"master context engineering for agent collaboration, measure performance with multi agent metrics, and much more.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/45-debunking-ais-environmental-panic-andy-masley/#t-136","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"The adversaries and the threat actors that cause cybersecurity attacks or cyber attacks have the exact same tools now that you and I do, Conor. And they can use those tools to get far more sophisticated and far more at scale in systematically attacking society and the critical infrastructure of society.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:24","seconds":24,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Welcome back to Chain of Thought, everyone. I am your host, Conor Bronsdon. Today, we are discussing a topic that is on every enterprise leader's mind. How to build the infrastructure to support AI at scale? And how do you do it securely? We have the perfect guest to help us understand this challenge, and that is Jeetu Patel.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":2,"time":"0:43","seconds":43,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"Jitu is president and chief product officer at Cisco. Thank you so much for joining me. It's such a pleasure to be on your show, and I love the name of your podcast. Thank you so much.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":3,"time":"0:53","seconds":53,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Should've been a thought. That's so so creative. I love it. Really, really glad to hear that. We we really try to take that lesson too from LLMs and say, okay, we're not gonna come in with a predisposed notion of of what this conversation is gonna be, you know, what our opinion is, but instead, let's work through it together. So let's maybe start with a viewpoint that I know is important to you and something you've been quite vocal about from what I've seen, the relationship between AI and jobs.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":4,"time":"1:21","seconds":81,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"There's obviously a lot of anxiety right now. People are worried that AI is going to replace them, and some AI influencers have pushed this narrative with AGI, artificial general intelligence. And some of us is, you know, hype for fundraising, but really what it means is, oh, hey, we're all gonna be out of a job soon, or you all are gonna be out of a job soon. But you have really taken a different stance. You've been bullish on the idea that AI isn't about replacing jobs,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":5,"time":"1:48","seconds":108,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"but instead about making our work better. Can you walk us through why you believe that? I I believe in that because","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":6,"time":"1:56","seconds":116,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"I feel like we should not underestimate the the the human mind. You know? Like, we've thousands of years have gone by. There's been bunch of technology shifts that have happened, and humans have continued to find a way to stay relevant during each one of these kind of disruptions. And, you know, if you think about what are humans really good at doing, humans are amazing at","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":7,"time":"2:25","seconds":145,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"gut instinct, intuition, ability to be able to make decisions within complete data, having empathy. These are all things that are really hard to have a machine get trained on. I I it's it's a very interesting industry strategy that transpired where the industry took an intentional, you know, approach of making AI very skeuomorphic in nature. Right? And so it was like","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":8,"time":"2:57","seconds":177,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"every single thing was equated to a human rather than being equated to tooling that humans use. And I think, like, you know, there's a very eloquent argument that Jensen has that, hey, this is not this is not a tool, it's work. I actually like the way that he frames that, but I do feel like level one maturity that we would have is AI is going to take our jobs of thinking. Like, just pure maturity of thinking spectrum.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":9,"time":"3:30","seconds":210,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"Level one maturity is AI is going take our job. Level two maturity is someone that uses AI better than me is more likely to take my job than AI taking my job. And that is a risk, to be fair. That is a real risk, right? And then there's mitigations to that risk that we should talk about. And then level three maturity is when people realize in the next few years, it's going to be really hard to imagine me doing my job or me getting my job done without AI.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":10,"time":"3:59","seconds":239,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"And this is not even a crazy concept. Like, the spreadsheets came out, and everyone thought that every finance person was gonna lose their job. And now you can't get a finance job without understanding the spreadsheet. I don't think that AI is going be any different on that dimension. We will not be able to get our jobs done without AI. So then the question is, what is AI","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":11,"time":"4:26","seconds":266,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"good at? One way to think about this is there are a bunch of jobs that we just don't have time to do that we can actually farm out to AI to get done. That's gonna be the first category of jobs we'll give to AI. The second thing is there's gonna be a bunch of things that AI is better than humans are doing, you know, which is like, you know, crunching data of large volumes, making sure that you can actually get aggregate the insight from that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":12,"time":"4:52","seconds":292,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"AI is going to be better at doing that than a human would do. And then the third one is jobs that humans can't do that only AI can do. And so I feel like there's on each side, humans are going to be good at a lot of things. AI is going to be good at a lot of things. And when you put them together, that's when the magic happens. And I think it's a false narrative to say humans are going to be this is the end of creative contribution of humanity in society.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":13,"time":"5:19","seconds":319,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"We're going be sitting on a beach, staring in the ocean, and that's all we're going to be doing for the rest of life. And AI is going to do everything for us. I just feel like that's jumping the gun a little too much. And so I find it to be a very kind of optimistic feature from the dimension of and I'm not delusional about it. I think there's risks to AI, but the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":14,"time":"5:41","seconds":341,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"risk of all jobs going away, I think, is de minimis. Now, what I think will happen is some jobs will go away, all jobs will get reconfigured, and entirely new industries will get created. We should think about that framing as we go into this market. And I think it'd be a far more productive framing rather than the nervous frenzy of everyone worrying that AI is gonna have the entire","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":15,"time":"6:10","seconds":370,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"corpus of humanity not be able to be employable for the rest of time.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":16,"time":"6:15","seconds":375,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I I think that seems exaggerated to me. I completely agree. No. I I'm right there with you. In my mind, what we've done is we've compressed the need to keep learning so that you have to especially learn based off of what's changing in your role currently and the different tools that are coming in. And I think that exacerbates the fear for a lot of folks because","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":17,"time":"6:37","seconds":397,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"it used to be you could learn some over, you know, a twenty, thirty year career, and you'd be fine over time. But now the pace of change is much more rapid with AI tooling coming in, and there's this large wave, particularly in things like software engineering, other disciplines where you're seeing, you know, the way code is generated completely change, or even just like how I triage my email is changing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":18,"time":"6:59","seconds":419,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"But you've always, if you were gonna excel at your work over a long period of time, you need to be able to keep learning and keep evolving. And I think now people are being pressed to do that more with the AI wave.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":19,"time":"7:12","seconds":432,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"I think the compression of time at which you have to get you know, the half life of anything is compressing quite dramatically, and that can cause nervous energy. And that's actually very, very legitimate. On the other hand, I don't think the storage of knowledge in our heads is going to be the currency of the future. And so if knowledge and intelligence is abundantly available,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":20,"time":"7:46","seconds":466,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"what's going to be the unique nuance that can differentiate one human from the other is how can you make sure that you you get that knowledge extracted from AI with the right questions? And so asking the right questions, learning to learn fast, those are skills that are going to be far more important for my 14 year old daughter to learn than just, you know, cramming a bunch of knowledge and memorizing it, which is something that I feel like, you know, the Internet was the first phase of that, but now it's like","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":21,"time":"8:20","seconds":500,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"AI is the second phase. The thing that I think is grossly underestimated about AI, and this is an area that I don't think people are talking about enough and they're not thinking about enough, is right now we think of AI as an aggregation mechanism for the corpus of data that's available in the world. So it's like, I'm going to go out and train my models with all the data that's available,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":22,"time":"8:42","seconds":522,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"and then I'm going to be able to get a succinct answer for a question I ask based on the data that's all available. I think that, and that's going to get me productive. That that's the current kind of simplistic promise that's delivered. I feel like that's, that's like 1% of the benefit. 99% of the benefit is going to come from original insights will get generated","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":23,"time":"9:06","seconds":546,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"that don't exist in the human corpus of knowledge that allow us to dream about solving problems that we had deemed unsolvable up until now. And that will then give us a whole new set of possibilities on things we can do for tackling important issues in society. You know, longevity of life, quality of life, curing of disease, you know, ending poverty, you know, kind","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":24,"time":"9:38","seconds":578,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"of helping cure the climate crisis. All of these are kind of gonna be done far better with AI coming up with original insights because humans had not thought of it. And that to me is an exciting future that all of us should be stoked about rather than being nervous of because we will be able to solve problems. Now, what should we be nervous of? What's worth being nervous about is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":25,"time":"10:04","seconds":604,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"you've got, you know, like a the the adversaries and the threat actors that cause cybersecurity attacks or cyber attacks have the exact same tools now that you and I do, Conor. And they can use those tools to get far more sophisticated and and far more at scale in systematically attacking society and the critical infrastructure of society. And so what we will have to do is make sure that we","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":26,"time":"10:36","seconds":636,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"we completely accept the fact that safety and security is a big risk, and we have to mitigate that risk. Because in the absence of that getting mitigated, I think we you know, there'd be a lot of harm that's caused in in humanity.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":27,"time":"10:52","seconds":652,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I love the thoughtfulness of this perspective, and it's clear that it's also impacting how you're approaching product development at Cisco. Because I know Cisco has a product called AI Defense that is trying to solve exactly this problem. You've published research about DeepSeek and other frontier reasoning models looking at security risks.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":28,"time":"11:11","seconds":671,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"What do you see as the most pressing AI security threats that we need to be paying attention to? So in the land of security, let me actually zoom out for a second and say, in in this world of AI, what are the impediments that could actually hold AI back? And I think there's three big areas that could hold AI back. There's more than three, but there's three that we can at at Cisco, we can we can squarely actually make sure that we can make a positive contribution to. The first one","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":29,"time":"11:39","seconds":699,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"is an infrastructure constraint. There is just not enough power, compute, network bandwidth, and data center capacity to go satiate the needs of AI. And the constraint for infrastructure is directly correlated to a company and a country's ability to to have intelligence. Infrastructure is the input. Intelligence is the output. And by the way, all things being equal,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":30,"time":"12:09","seconds":729,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"any company or any country is gonna be better with more intelligence than less intelligence. Needs more intelligence. So the first constraint is infrastructure. The second big constraint is a trust deficit. And what I mean by a trust deficit is these systems that AI is built on, these models, are by definition nondeterministic in nature, which means that they're unpredictable. But we are building","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":31,"time":"12:35","seconds":755,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"highly predictable applications, or we're wanting to build highly predictable applications on top of a foundation, which is, by definition, unpredictable. So we have to make sure that we can solve that problem effectively by saying, do I have visibility on what data is going in? Can I actually jailbreak this model algorithmically through a red teaming process that's algorithmic, not","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":32,"time":"13:03","seconds":783,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"And once I found a way to jailbreak a model, because it doesn't work the way that I expected it to work in certain categories in certain areas, I should dynamically at runtime be able to have runtime enforcement guardrails be put on it? If I can do that, then anyone who's a developer, anyone who's building an agent, anyone who's building an application on top of a model","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":33,"time":"13:26","seconds":806,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"is, by definition, going to not have to worry about building a security stack because all they'll have to worry about is coming up with the next best idea, and we will take care of the security because we will actually do that piece of it for them. You can innovate fearlessly. So that's the second big constraint is a trust deficit. If you don't have safety and security, right, people are not going to use the system. So safety and security become a prerequisite for adoption.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":34,"time":"13:54","seconds":834,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"And then the third area is a data gap where right now, if you think about it, most models, the issue that people had with scaling laws was they thought that at some point in time, they're going to run out of data, which was actually true. You're running out of human generated data publicly available on the Internet. However, there is plenty of evidence now that's starting to build up that synthetic data is starting to show very efficacious","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":35,"time":"14:27","seconds":867,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"kind of outcomes for AI models. Right? It's working great in post training. Just talked to Maxime Lebon at all Liquid","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":36,"time":"14:35","seconds":875,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"they're doing to do their post training all they're to set up the liquid doing. Models. That's That's Then the second thing that's happening is machine data, which is data from applications and agents. And the more you have for every human, if you have 10 agents or 100 agents, the amount of machine data on activity that gets generated in logs, metrics, events, traces,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":37,"time":"14:58","seconds":898,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"all of those things is currently time series data that is not effectively utilized by AI models for doing things like detecting infrastructure stability, predicting infrastructure outage, you know, making sure that you can prevent a breach from occurring. All of those things is where machine data can be hugely beneficial. And so these three constraints, infrastructure,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":38,"time":"15:24","seconds":924,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"trust deficit, and a data gap, are all three turns out that Cisco can be squarely in the middle of and really help our customers out. And those customers could be public sector. They could be private sector. And essentially, what it's doing is it's helping our customers generate tokens with the lowest amount of kilowatt power of energy and the lowest amount of dollars spent","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":39,"time":"15:49","seconds":949,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"because token generation ability is directly proportionate to a country and their ability to actually have economic prosperity as well as national security. And that same applies even for companies where companies can be more financially viable and have greater security posture. So I feel like those three dimensions are pretty important to understand and say,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":40,"time":"16:14","seconds":974,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"what does the market need to do to ensure that we can actually drive these constraints to a a point of, you know, where it does not become a constraint, it becomes a state of abundance. Because if you have plenty of trust, and if you have no infrastructure constraint, and if you don't have a data gap, then the potential of AI to alter the course of humanity for the positive and for the good is going to be meaningful. That's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":41,"time":"16:42","seconds":1002,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"the future that we should be striving for. And by the way, that future does not happen without humans. That future requires humans to be participating.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":42,"time":"16:50","seconds":1010,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"To call back to your previous point Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of infrastructure work for us to do. There's a lot of security work for us to do to set up AI enabled work in the future. And it's been interesting to see how your perspective has really informed Cisco's decision making around product development. I know there's AI defense, as I mentioned, and then my understanding is you've actually open sourced your first security model as well,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":43,"time":"17:17","seconds":1037,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"Foundation AI. Can you tell me about that decision and how that interacts with the rest of Cisco's approach here? Yeah. So on the AI defense side, just to close out on that, basically, what it is is a mechanism for us making sure that we can get visibility on what data is flowing through a model, do algorithmic red teaming and jailbreak a model using AI defense APIs, and then make sure that you can run time enforcement, apply guardrails.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":44,"time":"17:41","seconds":1061,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"That's AI defense. Right? So think of it like almost like a very sophisticated version of an AI firewall. Going back to your model question, in the consumer world, I think you're going to see a few handful of foundation models be very OpenAI, Gemini, X dot AI, know, Anthropic in in in certain instances, they will all be very successful models. My guess is a few more will emerge,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":45,"time":"18:13","seconds":1093,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"but you're not gonna have thousands of models on the consumer side. You will probably have a dozen that'll actually have most of the of the volume of inference. On the enterprise side, I think it's gonna be very different. You might have tens of thousands of models. And what you will have is multiple models being used in conjunction with one another with an intelligent routing layer","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":46,"time":"18:38","seconds":1118,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"that allows you to make sure that you can optimize your cogs, and you can make sure that certain queries go to certain models because that's costing you less from a compute resource standpoint, and then other queries might go to other models. If you look at Cursor, my guess is, I don't know for a fact, but 70% of their queries now are not going to Anthropic. They might be going to their own models,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":47,"time":"18:58","seconds":1138,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"and then they might have a certain percentage that goes to Cloud. Why is that important? Because as you have more and more of these models, it's gonna get not only more cost efficient, but your efficacy of the model being able to, in a very small footprint, footprint, be be able able to to give you exactly what you're looking for in a particular domain is going to be much higher.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":48,"time":"19:18","seconds":1158,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Latency, for example, is a concern too for a lot of folks, That's depending on the use case","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":49,"time":"19:22","seconds":1162,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"right. That's exactly right. So, what we discovered this pretty early, and we said, hey, look, security is an area that we care about deeply. We want to make sure that we build wouldn't it make sense for us to build our own models and security because we've got so much data. And the key over here is not to just make sure that you have infinite amounts of data.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":50,"time":"19:46","seconds":1186,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"The key is to make sure that you train it on the right data, you know, and so distill it down to the just the right amount of data that you want to train it on, where the efficacy of pretraining a model that is a, you know, open source, 8,000,000,000 parameter model, we are seeing can now actually perform better than a 70,000,000,000 parameter model. And what we're also seeing is that 8,000,000,000 parameter model can be further quantized, and you can run it on a CPU on a laptop,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":51,"time":"20:18","seconds":1218,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"and and it actually just has a very, very different kind of economic outcome. And so that, in my mind, not only does it solve the trust deficit, but it also solves the infrastructure constraint. And then what we're doing is we're building out products for the edge that says, okay, if you have robotics on the edge, you might need to have inferencing on the edge,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":52,"time":"20:38","seconds":1238,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"to your point, because of latency. And so then we build this thing, this platform called Cisco Unified Edge, which allows you to have networking security and compute bundled in a box. So if it's a branch office or if it's a hospital or if it's a factory floor where you don't have IT staff, you can still just plug this box in, and it doesn't have wires dangling. You don't have to go out and have someone special come in to get it installed. You can manage it centrally. It's just inference","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":53,"time":"21:05","seconds":1265,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"plug and play on the edge so that you have the full from core to the edge inferencing capability provided by Cisco. So those are the kind of things that we've actually been spending our time building because we feel like you have to build things where there's a true pain point and a challenge. And right now, the challenges in the market tend to be around infrastructure,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":54,"time":"21:27","seconds":1287,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"trust, and data. And so what we do is we take that as a core founding principle of our product ideation process and say, if we solve those things and make those abundant as a result of doing this, there's going to be a natural demand signal for it, and we'll we'll end up doing well. And we recently had our earnings for the quarter, and, you know, we had a very, very successful earnings because you're starting to see that hyperscalers and, you know, neo clouds and sovereign clouds and service providers and enterprises alike","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":55,"time":"21:58","seconds":1318,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"are all starting to find that, hey. It makes a lot of sense to partner with Cisco because they provide critical infrastructure for the AI era. Speaking of partnerships,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":56,"time":"22:06","seconds":1326,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I know you've recently announced or an expanded major partnership with NVIDIA as well as partnerships with g forty two in The Middle East. Can you talk a bit about how these partnerships are helping to solve this infrastructure gap? Because as as you brought up here, we're seeing this interesting tension where both enterprises and countries are saying, I either don't have enough compute. I don't have enough energy,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":57,"time":"22:31","seconds":1351,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"or I don't have the trust I need to actually put these systems into production. Clearly, you're trying to address that challenge, and part of that is through these major partnerships. I think, in my mind, a partnership","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":58,"time":"22:43","seconds":1363,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"a company's willingness to partner is very indicative of the of the company's arrogance level. And the reason I say that is you can't be arrogant to think that you're gonna go out and build every single thing that's needed for a very, very large growing economy and the largest platform shift. And that means that you have to have enough humility to know that there will be overlaps","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":59,"time":"23:10","seconds":1390,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"between your partners. Sometimes they might be competitive in nature compared to what you might have wanted to do in an ideal world, but it is better to partner with the ecosystem and create an open ecosystem than to create a walled garden. And so that's something that we've actually thought pretty deeply about. And when I joined five years ago, one of my my big kind of","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":60,"time":"23:34","seconds":1414,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"convictions over here was that we have to be extremely open in our in our partnering approach. You know? So in anything that we do, even if it's a competitor, we will make sure that we extend the possibility for us partnering together. And frankly, it's worked out pretty well because the reality is I would rather grow the pie than keep trying to focus on getting the bigger piece of the same pie.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":61,"time":"23:57","seconds":1437,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"And when you work with competitors and you grow the pie, everyone's happy, and this does not have to be a zero sum game. You know? And so we've partnered with NVIDIA, which we we don't have that much of a competitive overlap with them, but it it's a very synergistic partnership because they build GPUs. We build the networking, and the GPUs are you know, the way I think about this is power is the constraint,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":62,"time":"24:25","seconds":1465,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"GPU is the core asset for AI, and network is the force multiplier. In the absence of the network, the GPUs can't operate. Why is that? Because it used to be that these models were small enough that they would fit in the memory of a single GPU and have the processing speed of a single GPU be able to train the model. Then what happened is the models got bigger and you needed to train","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":63,"time":"24:51","seconds":1491,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"it on multiple GPUs, so you created a server with four to eight GPUs. And then the model got even bigger. So you said, Oh, these servers need to be put into a rack and stacked up. And that's what I need to train the model on. And that became a rack. And then you said, oh, I need to have a set of a row of racks that need to be tied together within a data center. And now we are at the point","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":64,"time":"25:14","seconds":1514,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"where you're not just doing, you know, the rack networking was called scale up. The row networking was called scale out. And now what you've got is networking that goes across data centers, when two data centers that might be hundreds of kilometers apart will need to act as one coherent ultra cluster for a training room. And we have created silicon and systems","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":65,"time":"25:38","seconds":1538,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"and optics to be able to have two data centers with two different power draws that might be hundreds of kilometers apart operate as one giant cluster, one coherent cluster. And when you do that, that's what's called scale across. And those things are impossible to do without partnerships with others. The way I think about a partnership is if someone has more than 20 of the market and you choose not to partner with them because you want to have all the revenue to yourself because you feel like you're arrogant enough to believe you're going to build everything,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":66,"time":"26:15","seconds":1575,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"then all you're doing is getting yourself excluded from that 20% of the market. You're not doing yourself any service. Economically, it makes no financial sense to not partner. I think it's a better way to live life to not just hate on people. And I think it's, most importantly, better for the customer because the customer has made an investment in company A and company B. And if we happen to be one of those two companies,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":67,"time":"26:42","seconds":1602,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"it's our duty to make sure that we can actually work with the other company to get to protect our customers' investments. Because if we do that, the customer is gonna say, you know what? I wanna work with Cisco. I'm gonna work backwards and do that. And so that's why I've always felt like partnering is at the core. So there's two core principles I hold very close to me, which is, first one is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":68,"time":"27:03","seconds":1623,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"you got to build a platform, not just an individual collection of products that don't talk to each other. You have to have an integrated platform, and two, you have to have an open ecosystem. And if you do that right, then then there's a pull from the market towards you, whereas versus if you do that wrong, you have to push your products into the market, which is a much harder thing to do. It's a lot harder to win zero sum games with multiple competitors, and you're always going to have multiple competitors.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":69,"time":"27:28","seconds":1648,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"And and, like, you you you can't think that you're going to get every market transition right every single time and be the first in first to market over there. Totally. And that you're going to be an expert in every single thing because, you know, you're going to still be constrained on resources. Like, I I think it's just much better to make sure that you stay focused","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":70,"time":"27:46","seconds":1666,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"at what you do best. My my rule of this one is if I stay focused on what I bring a unique perspective to, where I have permission to play that I do better than anyone else, and then for everything else I partner, then what ends up happening is you just build a vibrant ecosystem. And that is truly the definition of a platform where your contribution of your technology","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":71,"time":"28:09","seconds":1689,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"is so big that it actually catalyzes a movement throughout the entire industry, and that the industry makes much more money from your technology than you make from it yourself. That then creates a level of value inherent in","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":72,"time":"28:26","seconds":1706,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"society with your contribution. I think this is a great point for leadership as well, not just for company to company interactions, but to building your own personal stack of skills. Like, yes, you should build out and trust and improve your unique skill set, but you're not gonna be an expert in everything under the sun. This is why people build teams. This why we bring in intelligence systems to support us.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":73,"time":"28:50","seconds":1730,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So I I just think it's an important note here, especially as we think about that jobs conversation that we had earlier. And I see this strategy for Cisco playing out in multiple ways. So we talked a bit about NVIDIA. And as I mentioned, you've also been deepening partnerships in The Middle East with g forty two and The UAE, looking to build out secure end to end AI infrastructure there. It's obviously an emerging area for several companies who are who looking at The Middle East as a Let me actually talk about those partnerships just to see your So NVIDIA, we've got a multidimensional","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-73","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":74,"time":"29:21","seconds":1761,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"partnership where we they build out AI factories. We said, what about if we actually had secure AI factories? Would you want an AI factory, or would you want a secure AI factory? It makes more sense to have a secure AI factory. So we actually have our security capabilities factored into the AI factory architecture, and then we we have you know, their reference architecture","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-74","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":75,"time":"29:44","seconds":1784,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"is something that we've continued to make sure that we can get certified, you know, against. That's one. We've also used we just launched at our earnings our nonaudit earnings at at GTC, you know, the 9,100 switch where we can take their spectrum ex silicon and integrate that with our our switches so that we can build switches with their silicon as well, even though we build our own silicon. And the reason for that is because sometimes customers prefer theirs, and so you just wanna give customers a choice.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-75","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":76,"time":"30:16","seconds":1816,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"And so those are the kind of things that we've done with NVIDIA, and we have we have a continued level of, you know, kind of of of tight synergy between our engineering teams that we can continue to keep partnering together. In fact, some of the executives at NVIDIA are very dear friends of mine. And, you know, we we I I think people like doing business with people that they actually tend to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-76","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":77,"time":"30:41","seconds":1841,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"enjoy. In fact, yesterday, we had our earnings call, and I had three or four of my competitors who just sent me a very kind note saying, hey. Congrats on a great earnings call. And it just feels good to just operate that way. You know? With g forty two, we have a very we are partnering very much with the sovereign cloud kind of initiatives that are going on, whether it be in UAE, with G42,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-77","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":78,"time":"31:08","seconds":1868,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"whether it be in Saudi Arabia, with the Humane Group, and we want to make sure that we are continuing to partner with them so that as they do this data center build out, that we become the network of choice for them. And so that's happening over there, and we will continue to keep doing that. We I've been to Saudi and The UAE three times in the past six months.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-78","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":79,"time":"31:28","seconds":1888,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"We've met with, you know, the crown prince on both sides, and we've actually had a very tight partnership with g forty two with Humane. We've known each other for many, many years, so I think it really helps. And then I I'd say that even with the model providers, we will continue to partner with all of them because we want to be the Switzerland across the entire industry,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-79","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":80,"time":"31:50","seconds":1910,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"and we want to make sure that we can provide network regardless of the model provider, regardless of the GPU provider,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-80","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":81,"time":"31:57","seconds":1917,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and we wanna provide the networking security observability across the entire stack. Love that. And I would be remiss if I didn't briefly mention that our our sponsor, Galileo, is also an AI factory partner with NVIDIA, so it's a very cool program. Highly recommend checking out the validated designs they're doing with Cisco and many others there. Really, really cool program. We'll have have NVIDIA on to talk about it at some point. That'd a fun episode as well. But","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-81","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":82,"time":"32:20","seconds":1940,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I I wanna ask about a couple of the other infrastructure constraints you brought up. So you mentioned, you know, power generation for AI infrastructure. And, obviously, you're looking at AI on the edge as well, and there are different constraints and opportunities that come with that. How are you thinking about these other constraints that we're seeing within the infrastructure that backs AI? I think, like, power is a very interesting one because","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-82","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":83,"time":"32:42","seconds":1962,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"what's happening with power is rather than power being pulled to where the data center needs to get built out, what's happening is data centers are getting built where the power availability is the highest. And that I don't think is going to be a phenomenon that changes. I think every country is going to want to have their own sovereign data centers, and what we need to make sure that we do as","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-83","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":84,"time":"33:09","seconds":1989,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"an American company that believes in the power of, you know, what America brings to the table is we wanna make sure that any any and all of these data center build outs that are happening worldwide are using American technologies to actually build these data centers out. And so whether it be in in a in in Southeast Asia, whether it be within The Middle East, whether it be in Europe, whether it be in South America or Canada, we want to make sure that we can help","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-84","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":85,"time":"33:40","seconds":2020,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"the build out of data centers in addition to the data centers that are being built out in The US. And I think that the power scarcity will make it very important that these are global initiatives rather than just localized initiatives because you can't just always pull the power exactly where you need, which is also why this this notion of scale across that I mentioned","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-85","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":86,"time":"34:02","seconds":2042,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"is really important. Sometimes you might not have enough power that you can pull into a single data center, and so you might need to have multiple data centers, but those need to operate like one data center that might be hundreds of kilometers apart because a training run has to operate with a number of GPUs that might not all fit within one data center. So if you need 300,000","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-86","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":87,"time":"34:24","seconds":2064,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"or 500,000 or a million GPUs to go out and do a training run, and a data center can only host fifty, seventy thousand, a 100,000 GPUs, then you might need to have a coherent cluster of GPUs that might span data centers, and that's where scale across networking is really important, where the technologies around security and around low latency communication that's power efficient","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-87","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":88,"time":"34:49","seconds":2089,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"gets to be very important because if you drop a network packet in a training run, you have to restart your training run. So you have to have technology that's built in the silicon chip itself that says, I'm going to provide things like deep buffering so I can buffer the variance of the bit rate of the packets going in. And then that way, if there's a little bit of a dip,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-88","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":89,"time":"35:14","seconds":2114,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"to I'm not go out and negatively impact the training run because that costs millions of dollars if you have to restart the training run. So those are the kinds of things that require deep architectural forethought that we've actually put in place for building out. And these are hard computer science problems and hard technology problems that Cisco does best at. And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-89","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":90,"time":"35:37","seconds":2137,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"the way I like to help people think about Cisco is think about us as the picks and shovels company during the gold rush. We are the critical infrastructure company during the AI era where we just keep things humming so that everyone can get full potential from the AI investments that they're making. And being a picks and shovels platform during a Goldrush is a fantastic place to be. Ain't entirely shabby. You know? It was a it was a good good good time to be in the picks and shovels business. You've been talking a bit about trust from a security perspective, from a successful networking perspective.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-90","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":91,"time":"36:13","seconds":2173,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I can imagine there are other dimensions of trust that are coming up in these partnerships too because, you know, as you mentioned, Cisco's an American company, but is working with these major international partners. Folks wanna have sovereign cloud, sovereign data centers. How do you navigate those tensions as you ensure there's trust across all partners and make sure that you're not playing a zero sum game, as you brought up? Yeah. I think on on that front,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-91","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":92,"time":"36:39","seconds":2199,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"you know, we, what's really important is working closely between the public and private sectors. The public private sector partnership is more important today than ever before. In the past six to twelve months, the number of government leaders I've met and gone out and visited is nontrivial. And why is that important? Because I think we have to learn from them on what their their challenges are. They have to learn from the private sector, and then we have to make sure that we come up with joint solutions that can meet their requirements and that can also be technically feasible from our side.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-92","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":93,"time":"37:17","seconds":2237,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"And so, you know, when you think about a sovereign like, the reality is is there are two choices right now on who you can buy AI infrastructure from. Right? It's either an American company or it's a Chinese company. Those are the two choices. And, you know, I have a lot of, you know, kind of sense of urgency on this particular topic because we have to move really fast because they're a very capable competitor in China. They actually can.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-93","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":94,"time":"37:54","seconds":2274,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"They have done a great job in innovating, and their constraints are slightly different from the world's constraints. And it's helping them to be more efficient in certain areas, looking at deep sea And in certain other areas, they might not be as viable a provider","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-94","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":95,"time":"38:09","seconds":2289,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"as we might be. Like, for example They don't have nearly as many data centers, for example. Or","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-95","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":96,"time":"38:14","seconds":2294,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"they might build technology, whether it's silicon or something that might be, you know, like, for example, they don't build two nanometer GPUs. You know, they build seven nanometer GPUs. The US builds two nanometer GPUs, but they have more resources on the power side. Yes. And they have more engineering capacity. And so they can say, well, the inefficiency of a seven nanometer GPU can be offset by unlimited power and unlimited, you know, kind of optimization","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-96","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":97,"time":"38:47","seconds":2327,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"of engineering resources. Those are the kind of things that are puts and takes that have to be played. And I feel like it's very important to keep in mind that as we build out the future, that US is a very formidable participant in building out AI capacity, data center capacity, not just for our own needs, but for the global need worldwide. And that requires us to make sure that we are engaging with the governments. We have the right level of regulatory policies in place.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-97","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":98,"time":"39:24","seconds":2364,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"We are working with our US government to make sure that everyone's on the same page. And so we tend to do a lot of that. And I think I have to give a lot of credit to our current administration on the way in which they're kind of navigating this, as well as","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-98","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":99,"time":"39:39","seconds":2379,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"all the administrations of different countries that we're working with. I think the silicon point is obviously the one that's most talked about. Look, we have this chip advantage. We simply are our head here. We're keeping China from getting access to this technology. They already have a major power advantage. We can't let them also have a chip advantage. But I I think an underrated","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-99","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":100,"time":"39:59","seconds":2399,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"conversation that some folks are having, but I think isn't as broadly consumed in AI circles, is the capital, pardon me, the capital allocation advantage that America has as well with the the VC community, with the ability to fund all these startups, fund all these different companies instead of having a largely state directed system that is, you know, powerful when it's brought to bear on a problem that they know how to solve,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-100","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":101,"time":"40:25","seconds":2425,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"but is less strong when it comes to solving diverse problems that they may not know from the start how to go after. Yeah. I think I think our our","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-101","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":102,"time":"40:35","seconds":2435,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"venture system and our startup ecosystem and our innovative spirit of America is something that you should you should not underestimate. I think it's it's it's definitely one of the one of the superpowers that we have. And, you know, in super cycle like this one that we're going through right now, I think that's very important because you to work in a very nimble way, and you have to make sure that many ideas","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-102","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":103,"time":"41:04","seconds":2464,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"and many experiments get started. But then when an experiment starts to do well, you know, you double down on it. And capitalism is a great way to make that happen. You know? And so I do feel like there's this inherent advantage that we have. But I will say this. I think it's a time for America to be very paranoid and move with a sense of urgency because our competitors","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-103","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":104,"time":"41:33","seconds":2493,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"are not incapable, and they can actually do a very good job as well. The speed at which the industry is moving is very important. Like, you know, any kind of slowdown in speed of execution can be detrimental and can risk any company losing the lead and the other one taking it over. So while we're in the lead right now, I subscribe to the belief that being paranoid","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-104","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":105,"time":"41:59","seconds":2519,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"is always a good idea in these kind of markets and these kind of tectonic shifts that are occurring. Yeah. We we can't be dismissive. There are real advantages of other systems, and there are real advantages that China has in particular. And I do think your point about speed is really important one, and it actually relates back to Cisco for me in some ways because Cisco has been described as the world's largest startup because of your acquisition strategy at some points.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-105","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":106,"time":"42:23","seconds":2543,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I think at one point, you completed 30 acquisitions in a single year. In in AI forward world, how does this acquisition and integration strategy evolve to align to your platform play? So, you know, we are very,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-106","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":107,"time":"42:37","seconds":2557,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"lucky in the in the sense that we have a very strong balance sheet, and we have a culture where we are able to make it's kinda like the company's version of inviting people from everywhere to come in and innovate and do really well at Cisco. We do that inherently well. And so when you start thinking about our acquisition strategy, we've been a very acquisitive company","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-107","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":108,"time":"43:05","seconds":2585,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"throughout our lifetime, but I have a slightly different take on this than we might have had a while ago, which is I don't believe that your strategy should be one that's dictated by acquisitions. I believe that you should have a very clear true north and a very clear point of view of the future that you want to build out, where you have permission to play, where you have unique insight that you can bring to the table, where you have a structural advantage. Advantage.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-108","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":109,"time":"43:38","seconds":2618,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"And then if you happen to come across a company that can accelerate that pathway for you to get there, then you shouldn't be shy to deploy your balance sheet. But your goal should not be an acquisition. The simplest way to talk about this is when I first joined this company and we would talk about a priority area, people would come to me and say, hey, Jithu, it seems like","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-109","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":110,"time":"44:02","seconds":2642,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"category X is a priority area. What are we going to buy? And my response to them is, I think it's a wrong question. The question should be category X seems like it's a priority area. What are we going to build? And if during the course of building, you come up with an idea that could accelerate your build out, then by all means, use your balance sheet effectively to make sure that you can deploy that capital.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-110","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":111,"time":"44:30","seconds":2670,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"And your investors would love it. Your customers would love it, all of that. But don't go in this rapid frenzy of just randomly buying things because you missed a market. I don't think that's the right way to success. I feel very passionate about being obsessed about innovation organically. I don't think that a company does well just by acquiring. A company does well","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-111","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":112,"time":"44:54","seconds":2694,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"by having an instinct for how to innovate organically. But the company also should know that when you get to scale, you can have a not built you know, kind of not built here syndrome. You have to make sure that you stay open minded to, oh, someone else built something better than us, and that seems to be an opportunistic moment for us to go out and augment that team with ours. Let's go ahead and do it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-112","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":113,"time":"45:19","seconds":2719,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"And that's the way that we thought about the acquisition strategy, and I think it's it's working out really well. We've made, you know, I my time over here, I've made, you know, seventeen, eighteen acquisitions. I don't I don't know the count anymore, but but it's not something where I I obsess about the acquisitions. I obsess about the strategy that we need to pursue, and acquisitions is just one of those avenues that accelerates that for us. It becomes a tool in your platform strategy. It becomes a tool in the platform strategy. Exactly. It's very well put. You mentioned True North and this idea of having a clear vision for what you think Cisco's platform should be. You've talked about a few concepts, openness,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-113","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":114,"time":"45:59","seconds":2759,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"trust, security, infrastructure. If you were to define today what your true north for Cisco's AI enabled era is going to be. What what do you think it looks like?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-114","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":115,"time":"46:12","seconds":2772,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"The way I would define it is we have to be the critical infrastructure for the AI era. What does that mean? That means that at every layer of the stack, we should have meaningful contribution. We will build silicon and network ASICs that can really help us, you know, build the most most expedient, low latency, high performing energy efficient networks. We will build the systems that the that's that that silicon is used in, which is the physical boxes and the hardware.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-115","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":116,"time":"46:44","seconds":2804,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"We will be build the operating system and the software for management on top of that. We will have security platforms that can help networks not just be naked networks, but networks that are secure networks. And so we have to fuse security into the fabric of the network, and that's one of the key differentiators that we have because our our security competitors","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-116","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":117,"time":"47:07","seconds":2827,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"don't have networking, and our networking competitors don't have security. We are the only company that has both at scale. We're one of the largest networking companies in the world. We also happen to be one of the largest security companies in the world, so that really helps. And then we need to make sure that we have observability on top of that. And finally, we should have know how on how to build applications that get to hundreds of millions of people.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-117","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":118,"time":"47:33","seconds":2853,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"And if we can build that stack all the way through for classical workloads as well as AI workloads, I think we will be in be in amazing shape as a company, not just by making money, but by contributing to society and the community in the best way possible, knowing what we know. Because I personally believe that the reason I came to Cisco and the reason I feel like this is one of the most magical places to work at is it's a very mission driven, purpose oriented company.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-118","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":119,"time":"48:06","seconds":2886,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"And if we the world is a different place when we win compared to when someone else wins. And and I think that's a really important thing to keep in mind on how we kind of wanna continue to keep building on on top of the investments that we've made. We've been in business for forty years. The amazing part is during those forty years, we built out these very durable","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-119","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":120,"time":"48:33","seconds":2913,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"franchises. And if we can keep innovating in each one of them like we're a start up, but operate at speed with scale, I I think this is one of the most special companies in the world right now, if if that happens. And right now, the way I think about this is we are on the journey to becoming a great company from being a good company. We had stopped innovating for a while,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-120","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":121,"time":"49:00","seconds":2940,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"and we are now back on a tear on innovation. We even innovated more in the past fifteen years than we have in the previous decade combined. And I would say that this is the worst that you should see the innovation velocity for the next decade. We will continue to keep accelerating that, and I think there's a spring in the step in the employee base. I think people are excited.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-121","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":122,"time":"49:21","seconds":2961,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"You know, we are I'm I'm so grateful at the hard work that all of them are doing, not just in the outputs that they're delivering, but I think they're putting their heart and soul into it. And you can feel it when people put their heart and soul into something versus when they're just doing a job for the sake of doing the job. Our employees are putting their heart and soul into it right now, and you can feel it in every step of the way. They sweat the details.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-122","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":123,"time":"49:42","seconds":2982,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"They feel terrible when something doesn't go right, and I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-123","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":124,"time":"49:46","seconds":2986,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"have a lot of appreciation for that. I actually have to admit I agree simply from the interactions I've had with Cisco team members over the last year, working with a lot of the folks over at Outshift Outshift on by Cisco for folks who don't know, but doing amazing innovation work for Cisco. And we had the opportunity to be part of their agency partnership, which is now with the Linux Foundation, and looking at how agents communicate and kind of setting the stage for that next decade.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-124","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":125,"time":"50:10","seconds":3010,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And super talented team members there. It's been a ton of fun working with them. Bjor is a great leader. We've we've been very lucky to have him, and he is you know, he's a force. Absolutely. And I'll shout out on the marketing side, getting to partner with Luke Tucker and and Leah Reiter was fantastic. Great great folks. Mank and many others. So hopefully, they listened to this episode.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-125","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":126,"time":"50:31","seconds":3031,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"There you go. As you think about building the team at Cisco, continuing to drive this culture of innovation, I'm sure you're taking lessons from your own career. And it sounds like you've been thinking in a very mission driven format for a long time, and that's part of your inspiration here. How do you I guess, what lessons, one, are you taking from your own career that you're applying to building the culture at Cisco to ensure incredible innovation?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-126","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":127,"time":"50:55","seconds":3055,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And two, who are the sorts of people you're looking for to join the team? So I I look for certain","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-127","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":128,"time":"51:02","seconds":3062,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"characteristics in people much more so than other characteristics. And so I'll I'll just tell you what I I find as a very good predictor of success for that individual to be able to add value. I think the most important characteristic I look for is hunger. And the reason I say hunger is you can teach people a lot of things. You can't teach them hunger. They're either hungry or they're not hungry. And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-128","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":129,"time":"51:29","seconds":3089,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"the the level of lift that it takes to teach someone to be hungry, which you can't do anyway. I think life has to teach you hunger, to your point. Yeah. That's you you just have to be self motivated. I don't wanna have an email or a rah rah session to motivate people. I think people have to be intrinsically motivated, not extrinsically seek motivation from others. So that's number one. I look for hunger. The second thing I look for","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-129","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":130,"time":"51:58","seconds":3118,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"is extreme levels of curiosity where, you know, you you have to have this insatiable appetite to learn, and learning should be the thing that gets you really kind of excited about life. And I I was talking to one of our engineers in the silicon team recently, and I asked him, like, hey. So how are you how are you thinking about Cisco? He's like, g two, as long as I'm learning,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-130","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":131,"time":"52:28","seconds":3148,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"I'm happy. The moment I stop learning, I'm not happy. And I've just learned this about myself. And so you just need to make sure that I keep learning. And I'm like, I don't need to make sure. You need to make sure you keep learning. He's like, absolutely. I need to make sure I keep learning, but I need to make sure that I'm I'm in those projects where the learning is exciting to me. And I'm like, absolutely. That's the thing that we need to do. So the second area is curiosity, extreme levels of curiosity that people have. And by the way, in the age of AI,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-131","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":132,"time":"52:56","seconds":3176,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"that's getting to be easy. The amount of time that you can take to get dextrous at something is compressed so much that it's actually fun to live life constantly learning. Right? So that's the second one is curiosity. The third one that I look for in people is clarity of thought because I think it's very hard when you have modeled thinking to then have clarity of communication that's inspiring to other people.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-132","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":133,"time":"53:27","seconds":3207,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"So you have to be a very clear thinker. If you're a very clear thinker, communication then of that thought is a learned skill. You know? But if you just don't have clarity of thought, you should spend a lot of time on the clarity of thought. And so you have to have clarity of thought, which then leads to clarity of communication, which then leads to inspiring other people to follow you on your vision.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-133","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":134,"time":"53:51","seconds":3231,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"And if you don't make this a team sport, it doesn't work. Right? And then the other thing I look for is, you know, is there a I know the obvious stuff is like, you know, base level of intellect and, you know, follow through skills and all of that stuff. But I think you have to assume that that's just the baseline. Like, if you if if you're not but what I don't look for always","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-134","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":135,"time":"54:15","seconds":3255,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"is experience. In fact, I I wanna have the right mix of experience and inexperience in a team. Because if you have everyone that's super experienced, what ends up happening is you can start to get a false sense of confidence because you've seen a pattern before when there's no evidence that that pattern will repeat itself because there's so many variables that might that might have changed","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-135","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":136,"time":"54:40","seconds":3280,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"in the meanwhile. So I actually feel like having people that can do good pattern recognition through experience, coupled with people that have no experience, that can teach the people that have pattern recognition to also unlearn the bad habits that they've learned constantly, I think is a really important thing. And so the combination of a team composition,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-136","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":137,"time":"55:05","seconds":3305,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"which is experience and inexperience combined together, super important. And that's that's how I think about the the formula of structuring teams is those kind of pieces. And then, you know, it's just nice to be with people that aren't afraid of conflict and aren't afraid of debate, but aren't assholes either. You know? And it's like brilliant assholes are are a pain to deal with.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-137","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":138,"time":"55:34","seconds":3334,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"On the other hand, one of the worst forms of, you know, one of the worst characteristics that I see in a company sometimes is being artificially nice rather than being kind. And so, like, if you see a problem and you don't say something about the problem, you're actually doing a disservice to your peers and to your shareholders and to your customers and to your stakeholders.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-138","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":139,"time":"55:58","seconds":3358,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"I would rather that you actually have the debate, be the debate about substance, not style, and be the debate about something where, you know, you don't take things personally, but the collective objective is to just keep making sure that you deliver the best outcome for the market. And if you can do that, then you end up doing well. If you don't do that, then it becomes a vanity exercise. And a vanity exercise usually doesn't have durability","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-139","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":140,"time":"56:25","seconds":3385,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"in in my mind.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-140","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":141,"time":"56:27","seconds":3387,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Think your point about constructive tension and conflict is one that I had to learn as a early career manager, honestly, where it's very easy to try to encourage your team and be kind to them and then fail to be real with them or at least fail to show them that where there's a problem. And you're doing them a disservice, you're doing the company a disservice. You're doing yourself a disservice, and you're creating this long term cultural problem if you're not able to have tough conversations.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-141","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":142,"time":"56:58","seconds":3418,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"Yeah. I think, like I feel like conflict is a necessary condition of business. You know? And if you don't have enough tension in the system, then what ends up happening is you start succumbing to groupthink, and groupthink is the worst thing that can happen. You know, most of the times like, what I get more paranoid about is not during the times when we're we're like, five years ago,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-142","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":143,"time":"57:21","seconds":3441,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"we were we were not the coolest company. We were not doing as well. We had a lot of kind of hurdles to overcome. So I wasn't as worried five years ago about us becoming complacent and, you know, risking that. I worry much more about that now than I did five years ago because success can breed arrogance, and success can breed complacency. And what you have to do, especially when you have success,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-143","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":144,"time":"57:53","seconds":3473,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"is preserve humility and stay paranoid. And if you can preserve humility and stay paranoid during your successful years, then your success becomes a tailwind and can actually propel you forward. If you start getting arrogant, then your success becomes your headwind, and it actually pulls you back. And so I've always found that intellectual arrogance is something to be really, really kind of careful of, like","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-144","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":145,"time":"58:27","seconds":3507,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"steer clear of it. And it's so easy for smart people to even reason their way out of not needing to be intellectually arrogant. They're like, no. No. We don't need to be. I'm smarter, I know it, and they'll have some kind of good justification for it. So I I always feel like surround yourself with people better than you and always know that you're prepared to unlearn because the patterns that you have don't last forever.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-145","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":146,"time":"58:54","seconds":3534,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"And at some point in time, have to forget that pattern to learn the new pattern because remembering that pattern and learning the new pattern might be very hard to do cognitively. Humility about learning, to your point. Humility about learning is so important. And It's something that seems obvious, but is a trap that a lot of smart people fall into all the time.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-146","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":147,"time":"59:17","seconds":3557,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"By the way, sometimes what ends up happening is it's confused that if you debate an idea that you're not humble. And and so sometimes the absence of conflict is seen as humility, whereas the reality is you should be humble with with a deep desire for debate about ideas, but not about personality. Like, you know, the best idea should win, and it shouldn't matter what rank they have. You should just focus on being intellectually honest about the best idea that wins, and don't","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-147","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":148,"time":"59:48","seconds":3588,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"create a version of your truth in the company. Seek the truth.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-148","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":149,"time":"59:53","seconds":3593,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And if you could do that right, then very different things happen. I think by pretty much anyone's metrics, you've had an incredibly successful career yourself. How have you managed this and kind of cultivated these traits along the way for for you? I think it's maybe a great lesson for leaders who are looking to someday reach those heights. You know, I I I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-149","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":150,"time":"60:15","seconds":3615,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"actually don't think of myself right now as particularly uber successful. In fact, there are times in my life where I feel like, yeah, I've I feel like I could do more. And so one thing I tend not to do much of is I don't tend to gloat in what what has happened in the past, and I just focus on what's not happened yet and what do we need to go at. And and then if if I were to say,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-150","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":151,"time":"60:45","seconds":3645,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"what is the thing that keeps driving me? I tend to be obsessively focused on continuous improvement all the time. And where I get motivated the most is when I'm learning something new. And so I just put myself in in positions where, you know, learning is a necessary prerequisite for getting the job done. And that means that I tend to do a lot of jobs where I don't have that much experience.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-151","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":152,"time":"61:18","seconds":3678,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"You know, when I when Chuck Robbins, our CEO, asked me to take the job for running all of product, I knew nothing about networking. You know? When I first came to Cisco, I knew not I didn't know that much about infrastructure. When I first went to Box, I didn't know that much about a pure SaaS company. When I went to EMC and I'd I'd joined the Documentum team, I didn't know that much about software.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-152","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":153,"time":"61:45","seconds":3705,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"And when I had first started my own company, I knew nothing about going out and starting a company. And I've always felt that that that slight nervousness of feeling like I don't know everything over here keeps me humble and keeps me wanting to learn rather than getting intellectually arrogant saying, I've figured this out. Because it's when you start getting that cockiness that you've figured something out, which is when you actually screw things up. I have certainly done that in my own life before, so I think that's that's a great note.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-153","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":154,"time":"62:15","seconds":3735,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I do have to ask you one very specific career question because you told me this before we started recording, and I I have to ask. You told me you you don't use email anymore. Can you tell me about that? I'm not particularly","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-154","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":155,"time":"62:27","seconds":3747,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"know, like, there's there's two kinds of people in the world. There's inbox zero and inbox 67,842. I'm the inbox 67,842. Chuck Robbins, my boss, is an inbox zero kind of guy. He's super organized. Does that create some tension maybe sometimes? No. He's actually the thing I love about him is he has accepted me for who I am. I love that. To the point that it's actually ridiculous what his level of patience is. Because if he sends me an email, he will send me a text and say, check your email.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-155","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":156,"time":"62:59","seconds":3779,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"You know? But which is something that is just a boon that you have if your boss is telling you, like, hey. Check your email. I'm I've accepted you for your flaws, and I'm gonna make sure you do it. But Okay. So extra piece of advice here, work for great leaders who understand their people. I want to say their people because he's really good at that. And the the reason I don't check email that much is I find it to be super,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-156","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":157,"time":"63:24","seconds":3804,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"you know, like, interrupting to my flow of thinking. And if I just did every single one of my emails and the higher you could get up in the organization, then the volume of email gets to be untenable. And so what ends up happening is you get hundreds and hundreds of emails a day. If I just did email all day long, I think there's people way smarter than me that keep","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-157","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":158,"time":"63:46","seconds":3826,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"have a system for how they manage email. I'm just not that guy. Every person I've worked for so far, though, has been really good at doing emails. So I have to still find someone who I can relate to on that dimension that's not good at doing email that I've worked for. But but I do feel like that's that's an area that, all jokes apart, I I feel like that's an area that I'm not very good at. And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-158","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":159,"time":"64:11","seconds":3851,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"I had this I'll I'll give you this example. So there was this gentleman named Joe Tucci who used to be the chairman and CEO of EMC, and I used to work at EMC for a while. And when I was leaving, he was very gracious to give me, you know, like an hour of his time. It was supposed to be a fifteen minute meeting. He was kind of very kind to me, and he said, let let me give you an hour and coach you on what you need to do next.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-159","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":160,"time":"64:34","seconds":3874,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"And he said to me, take a piece of paper before you start your next job and create four columns. In the first column, write down everything. And by the way, you don't need to show this paper to anyone, so there's no reason for you not to be intellectually honest. This is just for yourself. But the first column, write down things that you're really good at doing","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-160","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":161,"time":"64:54","seconds":3894,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"that you love doing. Right? Second column, write down things that you're really good at doing that you hate doing. Third column, write down things that you suck at that you love doing. And fourth column, write down things that you suck at that you hate doing. And be very intellectually honest. Don't try to have societal programming dictate your thinking. So, for example, don't say, I love managing very large teams","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-161","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":162,"time":"65:24","seconds":3924,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"as a passion because you're just seeking status at that point. And so, stop doing that because no one likes, like managing a team is not a thing in and of itself. Managing a team You do love growing people and mentoring. Yeah, exactly. And so, he said, do that. Then take the paper and cut it into two pieces, the first column, and then the second, third, and fourth column.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-162","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":163,"time":"65:50","seconds":3950,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"Now crumple the second, third, and fourth column and throw it in the bin because all you should care about is the first column. What do you love doing that you're really good at doing? And for everything else, make sure you surround yourself with people that they are in the first column for the things that you're in the second, third, or fourth column. And it's actually something that's stuck with me for a long time. So for example, I never take a job in a place","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-163","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":164,"time":"66:17","seconds":3977,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"without my head of business operations who comes with me in every job for the past fifteen years. Her name is Jessie. She is even though in the org chart, it looks like she works for me, there is no confusion in the entire company that I work for her. She can veto me at any point in time. She is the one who actually knows me well and knows what I don't do well.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-164","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":165,"time":"66:41","seconds":4001,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"And the reason I do that is because I am infinitely better with her by my side than without. My chief of staff, Shear, someone that is constantly critical to me about things I'm doing wrong. But what you do is you surround yourself with people that are complementary to you, that aren't shy to tell you that you're screwing up, and that have no tolerance for placating you and inflating your ego unnecessarily,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-165","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":166,"time":"67:08","seconds":4028,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"but that are smart enough to know that when you're not going through a good time and you're low on confidence, they know exactly how to boost you up. And I think if you can find even two, three people around you like this and then cherish them, I've been lucky enough in my life that I've probably got, like, thirty, forty people like this. But without Jesse, I don't take another job.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-166","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":167,"time":"67:33","seconds":4053,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"You know? Without Cher, I don't take another job because, like, it's it's very important because it's a team. You're buying the team. You're not just buying an individual. I don't wanna be I'm not very good at sports, but I don't wanna be traded as an individual player in a different team. I wanna make sure that the team goes from place to place and actually wins the championship. And when we've got fifteen years of working together experience,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-167","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":168,"time":"67:59","seconds":4079,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"there's an intrinsic level of trust that's built in the system, and that trust really helps in making sure that you can cut through a lot of the bullshit and just get to the High trust teams just perform better, period. They just perform better. We spend a lot of time in establishing trust in our teams and the ones that we build, because I feel like if you don't have that, then all you're doing is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-168","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":169,"time":"68:27","seconds":4107,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"adjusting stylistic mechanisms of providing feedback. And I feel like that's the wrong way to do things. Like, you should just accept people for who they are and then say, you know, I should be able to divorce your style from your substance, and you should be able to divorce my style from my substance. And if you just focus on the substance and ignore the style,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-169","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":170,"time":"68:46","seconds":4126,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"you'll get so much more done. And, you know, Chuck has this great line that he gives me, who's our CEO. He says, Jithu, if you never worry about who gets credit for something, you'll go much farther in life. I think it's a fantastic way to think about things is just don't worry about who gets the credit. The best idea wins. Ideally, you even forget whose idea it was by the time the debate ends,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-170","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":171,"time":"69:11","seconds":4151,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"but the best idea is one. I love that we've had such a wide ranging conversation. Thank you for for sitting first along with me here. It's already been seventy minutes. But I see these clear through lines. You know? You talked about trust both in infrastructure and in people. And I think there's a lot of similarities in in how you build that and the need for both of those, for successful teams and for successful technical systems that interface with those teams. You've talked about this idea of avoiding","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-171","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":172,"time":"69:39","seconds":4179,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"who gets the credit and about open partnerships, growing the pie together. You've also talked about constructive tension. I think these ideas are all extremely complementary. So I love that you've brought them up in these different areas because it really, I think, paints a clear picture of your worldview and how you are approaching things that just makes a sense across the board as far as how you've built your team, how you're building Cisco's products, and how you see the future, really. I appreciate it. It's you know, the thing is is these things are not super complicated. They just are hard to implement","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-172","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":173,"time":"70:14","seconds":4214,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"and stick with. No one if you tell anyone, hey. It's important to have trust in a team. No one's going to disagree with you. Actually working on building trust, really hard to do. So how have you done it? What we do is we have this thing that we do at the table group. I don't know. Have you heard of the table group? They have this book that they've written called The Five Dysfunctions of a Team.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-173","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":174,"time":"70:35","seconds":4235,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Have heard of that book. Have yet to read it, but I think I'm the third on my list. It's actually I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-174","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":175,"time":"70:40","seconds":4240,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"don't read full books, but I read excerpts and summaries of them. But I think it's a really good philosophy. The way that we do it is rather than just trying to go out and be transactional with each other, we try to understand the human being first in a team. And there's two aspects that are very important. One is you have to have a very clear idea of who is your first team.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-175","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":176,"time":"71:03","seconds":4263,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"Right? Most people think in organizations that your first team is the team that you're managing. That's not your first team. The first team is the peers that you work with. So if I'm running product, product is not my first team. The executive leadership team on Chuck's staff is my first team. Right? The members of my team, for them, the product team is their first team, not their individual teams that they might be managing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-176","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":177,"time":"71:30","seconds":4290,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"So I think having clarity on who's the first team is super important. The second thing that we've done is we will tend to start by asking people, what is the most memorable job that you've had and the most fulfilling job other than the one that you're currently in and why? And tell us a little bit about yourself that no one else might know. And then what we will tend to do in those exercises","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-177","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":178,"time":"72:01","seconds":4321,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"is I will start as the leader, and I set the tone of the kind of things that I share. So one of the things, Conor, I share over there is the fact that my childhood was pretty rough, and I grew up through an abusive dad who was a con man. And as a result, I had to leave India because it was not safe for me to be in India. And I actually came to America. He was very abusive to my mom, so I had to actually hide her in an undisclosed location.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-178","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":179,"time":"72:30","seconds":4350,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"I didn't see my mom for seven years. And, you know, I started my own business when I came here, and that's how I actually you know, one thing led to the other led to the other. And one of my biggest kind of characteristics for a long number of years was I operated out of fear. And my motivation was my fear. It was fear of being unemployed. It was a fear of being poor. It was a fear. And especially when my mom was alive,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-179","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":180,"time":"73:02","seconds":4382,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"I was extremely worried about, you know, not having a job. And so I would be the hardest working guy no matter what. I would be the one that would never slack off on things because my entire ethos was built around. I operated out of fear, which, by the way, it's a it's a great thing for business. It's a terrible way to live life. Right? I think I'm far less fearful now than I used to be back then.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-180","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":181,"time":"73:30","seconds":4410,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"But that's also because, like, enough time has passed, you you get to reflect. But when I start with something like that, what it does is it gives people context on why in certain meetings I might behave the way I do. Right? Is that I I hate losing. The reason I hate losing is I don't want to be irrelevant. The reason I don't want to be irrelevant is I don't want to be in a position where me and my company","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-181","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":182,"time":"73:53","seconds":4433,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"are put in a position where we will not be able to feed our families. And so I have a very, very kind of, you know, formed ethos around that. But if someone doesn't know that about me, then they they wouldn't have full context. And so we have this thing in human beings called the attribution error where, Conor, if you and I are on the same team and both of us know Jesse,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-182","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":183,"time":"74:18","seconds":4458,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"but I know Jesse much better than you do, and you come in late to a meeting, Jesse looks at that and goes, Conor is a slacker. He showed up late. You know, I come in late to a meeting. She's like, wow, chief is usually never late. Is everything okay? Is something wrong with him? And that's called an attribution error where the absence of familiarity that we might have","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-183","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":184,"time":"74:45","seconds":4485,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"with someone can create us to not give them benefit of the doubt when something goes wrong. And the level of familiarity we have might allow us to give people the benefit of the doubt because we know them well, and we know their character, and we can vouch for them. So the first thing you have to do in a team is build a level of familiarity and context. Just like in a prompt interface,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-184","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":185,"time":"75:12","seconds":4512,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"you give it context for the AI, for AI to know how to go out and respond to you. We have to make sure that there's context for humans. And so we tend to do that a lot in these off sites that we do. Anytime there's a new team member that we get, anytime that we actually have a team that gets reconfigured, we try to do that because what that allows us to do is create familiarity, which then creates trust.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-185","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":186,"time":"75:34","seconds":4534,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"That trust then allows us to have conflict in a constructive way. If you don't have trust, it's very hard to have debates.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-186","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":187,"time":"75:41","seconds":4541,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And so those are kind of things that kind of build on top of each other. I love that you bring this up because you're both creating space for others through your sharing and openness here, and you're extending that trust. I mean, I'll I'll I'll share a little back here and say, like, I publicly wrote about the fact that I was in abusive relationship in my early twenties kind of thing. And I think these are important people contexts that don't always come up in work context.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-187","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":188,"time":"76:05","seconds":4565,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"But when you have an opportunity to go deep with your team, you can learn so much about them and be able to really understand how they tick, and I think that matters so much. GCU, I I can't thank you enough for giving me the time today to learn a lot about you and and go deep with you. It's been so much fun having you on the podcast. I really appreciate you joining us. Thanks for","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-188","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":189,"time":"76:26","seconds":4586,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"exploring the range of all the topics, and thank you for having me, Conor. And I'm looking forward to Chain of Thought becoming one of the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-189","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":190,"time":"76:33","seconds":4593,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"most widely listened to podcasts, my friend. Fingers crossed. I I hope so. It's been a fantastic conversation, everything from people, infrastructure, security, strategic thinking, your perspective. But where can folks who are listening and can't get enough g two or can't get enough Cisco go to either follow your work or follow what Cisco's AI initiatives are gonna be doing? I think LinkedIn is probably where I post most frequently.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-190","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":191,"time":"76:58","seconds":4618,"speaker":"Jeetu Patel","text":"And so, you know, g two Patel on LinkedIn is where I would go and and follow me. And then the other place is Twitter. My handle is J Patel forty one, so one of the two places. I I tend to consume more news from Twitter and post more on LinkedIn, but I use both. So, you know, go to one of those two places. And if you happen to be looking for a job in AI,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-191","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel","episode":44,"guid":"a9154146-f1d0-49f4-8835-aa768b3ceb9c","episodeTitle":"The Critical Infrastructure Behind the AI Boom | Cisco CPO Jeetu Patel","publishedAt":"2025-11-19","segmentIndex":192,"time":"77:23","seconds":4643,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"make sure you apply at Cisco. I love it. Well, Jithi, thank you so much. We'll be sure to link everything here in the show notes, including the resources around things like Cisco Unified Edge and other things we talked about today, including Foundation AI and so many other initiatives. Listeners, thank you for tuning in, and make sure to check out all the clips and content that will be coming out for this episode. I'll be posting them to my LinkedIn, as well as our YouTube. And, of course, I'll be sharing them with the Jayton and Cisco team. And you can if you really enjoyed it, maybe leave a comment on Spotify or leave a comment on LinkedIn posts. We always love to hear from you. And, yeah, tell us what your favorite part of, Juju's episode was. We'd love to know. And GG, thanks again. It's been great. Thank you, Don.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/44-the-critical-infrastructure-behind-the-ai-boom-cisco-cpo-jeetu-patel/#t-192","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"So post training is, is quite simple to define. So you turn a model that is able to do this auto completion stuff into a useful assistant that is able to answer questions and follow instructions.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:19","seconds":19,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Welcome back to Chain of Thought, I am your host, Conor Bronsdon. And today we're going to be going down the stack as I'm joined by Maxime Lebon. Maxime is Head of Post Training at Liquid AI, where he is leading the development of their liquid foundation models, which we're going to talk about a very interesting and fundamentally different architecture that's challenging the transformer monopoly.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":2,"time":"0:41","seconds":41,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"He's also a prolific open source contributor. Maxime is the creator of the wildly popular LLM course on GitHub with over 66,000 stars and much more. But we're just gonna say, hey, Maxime, welcome to the show. Great to have you Hey, Conor. Hey, everyone. Thank you for having me. It's honestly our pleasure. We had several listeners that reached out to us and said, Hey, look, we'd love a deeper conversation with Maxime. We think he would be a great guest. And so it's a delight to have you on the show.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:09","seconds":69,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And we're going to get deep into architecture, some post training techniques perhaps, and the trade offs that have come from your experience with open source and so much more. But let's start with Liquid AI. In an industry where attention is all you need has been gospel since 2017, you've gone back to first principles with liquid foundation models or LFMs. Can you walk us through","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":4,"time":"1:35","seconds":95,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"what LFMs actually are for those who don't know, and how they differentiate","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":5,"time":"1:41","seconds":101,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"at an architectural level from other models? Yeah. Thank you for this question. So, Liquid started working on architectures since the very beginning. This is something that we're very keen on, and we had this first version of LFM models, now called LFM one, that was released in 2024. And now we released LFM two in 2025, and this generation is open sourced. We have a ton of models.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":6,"time":"2:10","seconds":130,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"I checked just before this recording, and we've open sourced 17 models since July, so in in just, like, three months or something. And it's it's going strong. I can I can tell you we still have more? But to go back to the question about the architecture, what we wanted to do with this LFM two models is having a on device LLM that is fast and accurate. And the current breed of LLMs","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":7,"time":"2:38","seconds":158,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"is accurate, but it's not very fast. So we wanted to go back to the architecture level to be able to design something that was truly optimized for this kind of hardware, a phone, like a wearable, etcetera. So the architecture that we ended up with is a hybrid that has some attention layers. It has six attention layers in the three fifty million parameter, 700,000,000","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":8,"time":"3:08","seconds":188,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"parameter, and 1,200,000,000 parameter model. It also has a new component, which is a short convolution layer, and here we have 10 of them. So there are more convolution than attention layers, in these models, And what we gain from it is that inference speed is a lot faster. And the memory usage also is a lot lower when you have long context, so your KV cache doesn't explode because of the convolution layers.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":9,"time":"3:38","seconds":218,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"And all of that while maintaining the level of quality of a pure transformer model. So those are the three metrics that we look at, and usually there's a trade off between the memory usage, the inference speed, and the quality. And here, we we managed to kind of raise this priority frontier, of optimizing,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":10,"time":"3:59","seconds":239,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"the model for the three task. And it sounds like one of the key goals for Liquid is to enable your models to run extremely well on edge devices so that anyone around the world can leverage an LLM on their phone regardless of whether or not they have a subscription to OpenAI or whatever else. Yeah. Exactly. We started working with customers","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":11,"time":"4:22","seconds":262,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"in 2024 and even a bit earlier than that, and we realized that the model that was the most demanded was our one b model. And to be very honest with you, our one b model, the first generation of LFM, it was a bit of an afterthought. We said, ah, yeah. Like, we we can do it, so why not? Right? But it was not like a flagship model at all, and yet that was the most popular one. So that got us thinking that there was probably a really interesting market to explore because nobody is in this niche of","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":12,"time":"4:57","seconds":297,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"small models that are really optimized for on device inference, and this was the reason, behind this choice of going on device LLM for LFM two. I love how unique the approach is because","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":13,"time":"5:12","seconds":312,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I think most competitors here who are building models are really focusing on, okay, like, how big can we make this damn thing? How many data points can we get in it? And you're taking the exact opposite approach. You're saying, what do we need to do to get this on the minimum viable piece of hardware that someone is gonna have in their pocket? And I, I think that is going to deliver dividends long term.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":14,"time":"5:38","seconds":338,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I've heard you describe these LFMs as being built with computational units deeply rooted in dynamic systems. Can you unpack a bit what this means in practice for people? Since I think some of us, and I'll put myself in this camp here, we hear that and we go, okay, like, what are we really trying to say here? Like, like, okay, great. We're trying to get it on an edge device,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":15,"time":"6:05","seconds":365,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"but what what's what's really happening here? What's the goal? Yeah. So this is,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":16,"time":"6:11","seconds":371,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"people who work on architecture's lingo. And what what what they mean by that is basically, yeah, going back to mathematical operators. And when you go back to mathematical operators, you realize that the attention layer is super strong, actually. So it's very it's a very, very strong baseline. And that's another lesson that is very important when you work in this space is that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":17,"time":"6:38","seconds":398,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"theoretical gains might not be realized in practice. And it's not because you have an architecture that is supposed to run very fast because the algorithm, the math says so, that it's going to fully realize once you lower the architecture on the target hardware. That was a lesson that we learned with the first generation of LFM models. And for the second generation, something that we did","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":18,"time":"7:06","seconds":426,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"right at the beginning was optimizing the models on a target hardware. So on a Samsung phone, for example. So we would not be misguided into believing that our our operator is is really good. It's very fast. No. Like, we could measure it and make sure that it's actually working in practice. And I think that part plus having a ton of pre training benchmarks, like over 100 different","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":19,"time":"7:36","seconds":456,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"evaluations, also helped in converging into, like, the best architecture for this task. And I I think many of us are","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":20,"time":"7:46","seconds":466,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"much farther or much higher up the stack where we are we're using models and practice. Maybe we're coding with them. Maybe we're writing with them a bit. But beyond surface level architectural understanding, I, like many folks don't even know how to get involved in the model development space. Now that's not true of everyone. We have some very smart listeners. I'm not trying to call all of you out. But what I'm driving at here, Maxime, is I think you've developed a really unique and powerful skillset.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":21,"time":"8:14","seconds":494,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I'm curious from your perspective, like what led you into this path and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":22,"time":"8:20","seconds":500,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"to this, not just edge compute, but I think edge of the entire space, this frontier? Thank you. First of all, I think it's about, like, the curiosity of knowing how these models are built. I think it's it's shared by a lot of people. For example, Hugging Face released a very long blog post about how to pre train models, how to push train them to actually, and that is widely popular because I think there's, like, curiosity in everybody that chooses LLM. Like, okay. Like, how do you train one? Like, how does it work in practice?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":23,"time":"8:56","seconds":536,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"And if you're interested in that, my recommendation would be, yeah, you can go into this rabbit hole and try to explore the architectural side or maybe the post training side. Like, it doesn't matter, like, what you're interested in in in particular, but just, like, make projects. And that's how I really started with my own projects in the open source. And then","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":24,"time":"9:19","seconds":559,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"it leads to new opportunities that you wouldn't have otherwise. So yeah, mostly driven by the curiosity of understanding how you make these models. And now I really enjoyed this seat of being able to to drive the training, drive the the data, the evaluations, and iterate and release the models and see how they're used in real life by end users. I would love to ask you about just that. How are you seeing end users leverage Liquid models on their edge devices? So we we started doing hackathons","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":25,"time":"9:57","seconds":597,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"with Liquid. So if you're interested, know that we have regular hackathons all the time, and people are super creative, like, extremely creative. The last hackathon that we had was in Tokyo, and there's a team, that won the second place, but they had, like, a crazy idea. They said, we're going to fine tune the LFM model and put it on a bike, and it's going to be an AI bike.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":26,"time":"10:23","seconds":623,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"And at the beginning of the presentation, I was this is the most stupid idea I've ever heard of. Right? This is, like, so dumb. And at the end of the presentation, I thought, these guys are absolute geniuses. Like, who am I to even think that they're dumb? Like, they just, like, outsmarted me completely. And, actually, it's a model. It's a vision language model built on top of LFM two one point six BVL.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":27,"time":"10:49","seconds":649,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"And what they did is kind of role play of a bike. For example, if you ask this model, what is the transformer architecture? It's going to tell you, I don't know. I'm a bike. And that's that's crazy. Right? You never have that in real life. Like, you never fine tune a model to refuse to answer a question. So people are extremely creative in the way that they use these models. This is just one example. There's another guy who made a an app on your phone,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":28,"time":"11:20","seconds":680,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"and it it it reacts when you use your phone at night, and it tells you, no. To stop doing that, basically. So you you browse Reddit, and it's going to tell you the best kind of subreddit is sleep and this kind of stuff. It's just popping on top of your screen. It analyzes your screen and the content that you see, and it creates a snarky message to tell you to stop using your phone.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":29,"time":"11:45","seconds":705,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"Those are might might not be like the most useful applications. So are","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":30,"time":"11:49","seconds":709,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"all of these applications snarky ones? We got a snarky bike. We got snarky Reddit. But you can test them. You can test them today. They're available online, and that's beautiful. Did they put giant googly eyes on the bike to indicate that it had a Vision model, as part of it? I think they did. I think they did. Alright. I I may have to try that myself. That one sounds really fun. I have to admit, I think my wife would be like, what are you doing in the garage today? And I'm like, don't don't worry about it. Okay.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":31,"time":"12:17","seconds":737,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"This this is fantastic. I I love to hear the creativity people are using this with. And if if folks wanna join in on these hackathons, is there somewhere they can go to get more information? Yeah. The official account of, Liquid AI on Twitter, on LinkedIn, you will find all the information there. So as much as I'm excited to have an AI bike, and I think I'm only beginning to scratch the surface of the possibilities as I add more and more googly eyes to it and indicate that I can really see everything,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":32,"time":"12:45","seconds":765,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I'm certain there are other use cases that that folks are having, and I've, in fact, heard, you know, several businesses that I talked to who are excited about this. Where are you seeing","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":33,"time":"12:54","seconds":774,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"liquid models in the wild outside of the hackathon? Yeah. There are a lot of different use cases. Right? Because we have different modalities as well. So I talked about vision language for the bike and for the app. But we also have an audio model that is really good and is able to do this kind of audio foundation model where you can build applications on top of it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":34,"time":"13:19","seconds":799,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"It can do speech to text, but also text to speech or speech to speech or text to text. It can do, like, any combination of those, and that allows you to do a lot of creative applications. For example, if you're in a car and you want to talk to an assistant, it can replace Siri and make do a better job most of the time. And we also have Nanos, and these liquid Nanos are small fine tuned version of our models.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":35,"time":"13:50","seconds":830,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"So for example, you have a data extraction model, and this data extraction model, you give it some text, and it will return a JSON object with it. You can specify the JSON object that you want to use. And an interesting application, because we've been talking about on device deployment quite a lot, is that with these small models, like the three fifty million parameter model, actually, you can deploy it on GPU. You can deploy it at scale and do big data operations with it, and that unlocks a lot of applications that were not really possible before with generative AI models.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":36,"time":"14:24","seconds":864,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"So for example, if you are ecommerce, finance, all these kind of, fields and you have a ton of operations, you can use this tiny model and do, structured but unstructured to structured text, conversion with that. So that's one way of using them, and we have a list of these fine tunes that people can download and play with to understand, like, how to adapt them to their use cases. We have Rag. We have function calling","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":37,"time":"14:55","seconds":895,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"and many others. Are you seeing","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":38,"time":"14:58","seconds":898,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"devs leverage liquid models within agentic structures? This is harder to do with","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":39,"time":"15:05","seconds":905,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"small models, right, because agentic capabilities are pretty much frontier, but it's possible to do function calling and tool use. It's possible to add them as part of a framework. I've got good feedback actually about the functional calling capabilities of even the three fifty ms model. So it really depends on your task. It will not be able to replace cloud models quality if you need some kind of complex workflows.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":40,"time":"15:33","seconds":933,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"But we think of it more of a one task thing. You have one task that would a multi agent system. Exactly. A multi agent system would fit the description here. I'm curious more broadly about your perspective on agents.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":41,"time":"15:48","seconds":948,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Obviously, that's been maybe the the topic of conversation for almost the past year now within the AI community. And yet, I think there are many folks, and I'll include myself on here with Carpathi and others, who think, you know, we're a little early here still. Like, there's a lot of work to be done. What's your perspective on this? Somewhat debate. Yeah. It's it's funny because people have different definitions of agents as well. So","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":42,"time":"16:12","seconds":972,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"it's also a very tricky topic to to talk about. I am a bit skeptical about the success of agents so far. I do like code assistance. I do like some workflows that are a bit more automated, but it feels like it's a engineering problem as much as a machine learning problem. And we mostly focused on the machine learning problem so far. So this is something that I would like to be able","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":43,"time":"16:45","seconds":1005,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"to power with LFM models on the phone directly and have some kind of simple agentic workflows. I think that usually agents are good when they're quite simple and straightforward. They tend to degenerate quite fast when it's about more complex workflows where there's a ton of reasoning involved. But just being able, you know, to directly change the settings of your phone","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":44,"time":"17:11","seconds":1031,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"with natural language or even just talking to it, I think it's already like a big improvement, you know, like adding, stacking up these little features is something that would change the way that we interact with these systems. And this is the core of this agentic, not really revolution, but evolution, in the way that we interface, with hardware. I think this is like the the main thing that excites me is understanding,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":45,"time":"17:41","seconds":1061,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"okay, we can really give models for people to power their workflows. It can be agentic. It doesn't have to be, but this is a way to go forward. And I hope that it will not just be with CAT models, but we can also do it with more on device","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":46,"time":"18:04","seconds":1084,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"LLMs. Are you seeing liquid models be used in REG systems in particular because of the injection of context that is occurring? Therefore, I guess it probably enables liquid models to succeed at these like extremely high levels with great response quality while not requiring the massive amounts of pre training and and datasets that would be required to, and kind of pull it off from being an edge device","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":47,"time":"18:31","seconds":1111,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"or edge device capable? Yeah. Rack is a good use case because it's not too complex, and a small model can do it very well. We have a Rack specific model actually to do it. And the other thing that is interesting, the RAC pipeline, so you have, like, the model doing the summarization or the question answering, but you also need at least one model to do the retrieval part.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":48,"time":"18:54","seconds":1134,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"And the retrieval part is also super interesting. So we we released a cold BERT model, which is a late interaction retrieval model. And the idea here is that you have three types of embedding models. You have classic embedding with BERT where you give a an input to the model and it will output a vector, and then you can do some competition with the vector. You can calculate the similarity with other vectors, and this is how you do embedding and retrieval.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":49,"time":"19:26","seconds":1166,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"You have the the cross encoder or re ranker architecture where you have the query and the document at the same time, and then the it's processed across all the layers, and then you get the similarity score. So this is good, but this is very expensive. And finally, you have this late interaction family where what you do is that you take kind of the best of both world, meaning that you can precompute your vectors,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":50,"time":"19:57","seconds":1197,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"and, also, you can do re ranking in the same model. So I think this is a very exciting way of doing retrieval, and we thought, okay. Since we have this super fast LFM two architecture, this makes a lot of sense to try to do it because with this, we can have a model that is bigger, so it's a lot better, but it's as fast as a model that is a lot smaller. So you kind of get, like, a super good trade off.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":51,"time":"20:27","seconds":1227,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"And, yeah, I think that RAG is a really exciting application for small models in general because you can get super fast retrieval thanks to it, and you can also get very decent quality, very good quality in terms of QA","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":52,"time":"20:41","seconds":1241,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"because it doesn't require, like, a a ton of reasoning. I think the latency point here is particularly important because we see this with a lot of production reg systems where if they've tried to build on, you know, let's say the Anthropic API, for example, there's just latency challenges with that compared to using a smaller model, that's hosted on edge or or elsewhere because,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":53,"time":"21:04","seconds":1264,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"if you're continuing to try to, you know, call out to other sources, I mean, depending on your use case, that may not be feasible. Like maybe this is a a just in time delivery system for someone who's in a call and they need an answer immediately based off of your document corpus, so they can help get a deal. They can't afford to wait a minute and a half or, or for the model to generate the response. They need it to be much faster than that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":54,"time":"21:30","seconds":1290,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So I I I love that you're thinking about that. It seems clear to me that smaller models, models on the edge, are key parts of how we're going to bring AI into so many other opportunities, whether that's robotics or whether that's, you know, simple chatbots. There's, there's a lot of opportunities here ahead. But let's talk about your specialty a bit post training.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":55,"time":"21:54","seconds":1314,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"This is where models can go from general purpose to, you know, really useful for specific applications. We, we've talked about a couple of those applications here, but it's also where a lot of teams struggle. You know, that infrastructure work you mentioned earlier can be a challenge for people. And then I think there are some fundamentals that may be slipped by folks. So let's maybe level set there.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":56,"time":"22:15","seconds":1335,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"What would you define for audience is post training and why has it become so critical in your view? Yeah. So post training is quite simple to define. It's the step that happens after pretraining.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":57,"time":"22:26","seconds":1346,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"So you turn a model that is able to do this auto completion stuff into a useful assistant that is able to answer questions and follow instructions. So this is the idea behind post training. It's okay. We have this model that is good at modeling language. Now we're going to turn it into something that I can actually use in practice. And to do that, we have a lot of different training techniques.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":58,"time":"22:55","seconds":1375,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"The most useful one, like the first one, is supervised fine tuning. Supervised fine tuning is when you give the models the questions and answers that you expect, and this should closely mimic how users actually use your models in real life. And then there's a ton of other techniques. We can dive into them if you want, but more related to, like, optimizing for preferences, optimizing for reasoning,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":59,"time":"23:26","seconds":1406,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"or having a teacher model that is able to distill some knowledge into the student model that you're currently training. How do you think about","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":60,"time":"23:37","seconds":1417,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"the decision making around when to use different techniques? Obviously, supervised fine tuning is kind of industry standard at this point, but, you know, preference alignment and other other options you're mentioning here are also used. What are the trade offs that you consider, and and how do you make those decisions?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":61,"time":"23:53","seconds":1433,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"Because, obviously, cost and time can be factors. No. Absolutely. I think it really depends on the end goal that you have. If you're creating a chatbot, you really want to optimize for preferences. This is not optional. It really makes a huge difference. So preference optimization techniques like DPO, direct preference optimization, or more elaborate one like PPO","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":62,"time":"24:19","seconds":1459,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"can be a good idea. If you want to do a reasoning model that will output a reasoning trace, it makes sense to use reinforcement learning in the loop at some point, which can also be used all the time, to be fair. But once again, it really depends on the capabilities that you're targeting. Does it make sense for you to do it for math, for example? Not entirely sure. And with small models,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":63,"time":"24:47","seconds":1487,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"it also raises a lot of other questions like, okay. Will someone actually use a 1,000,000,000 parameter model for math ever? Do we need to actually care about this too much? So, yeah, depending on the target that you have, you might have a lot of questions like this. And there's a","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":64,"time":"25:10","seconds":1510,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"a common maxim here, which is garbage in, garbage out, really saying that data quality is is everything. I mean, this is true for reg systems. It's true for for so many things. Frankly, it's true for education for humans. Right? And so data quality seems to be at the heart of effective post training. How do you think about the data generation and acquisition process here?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":65,"time":"25:34","seconds":1534,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"How do you identify what a high quality training sample is gonna look like? Yeah. It's it's the most important question, I think, when we talk about training models is how to define data quality. Because, as you said, this is the cornerstone of everything that we make. Training techniques are nice, but they will never replace good data, and having the ability to curate","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":66,"time":"25:59","seconds":1559,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"the highest quality data is essential here. So it's very difficult to define it. I think about it in, like, two or three categories. There's the accuracy of the data because, of course, you want something that is factual. If you ask a question, you want the right answer right. So that one is obviously very important and sometimes very difficult to verify as well. And then you have the diversity.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":67,"time":"26:29","seconds":1589,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"So this time, it's not about one sample. It's about the entire dataset, and you want to have a lot of coverage. It has to be, like, as diverse as possible. Diversity is so important that you might actually want to include wrong samples just because they're more diverse. And so, yeah, it's a difficult trade off to find sometimes, And there's a lot of other aspects. For example, multiturn conversations","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":68,"time":"26:59","seconds":1619,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"are really good, and all the data should be natively multiturn. Right? Chain of thoughts or some kind of reasoning, at least, when you output an answer is also very good for the model to have this structure of, first, I think about something, and then I give you the answer. Because a lot of models, they start with the answer, and then they retrofit an expert it's an explanation","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":69,"time":"27:24","seconds":1644,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"to to justify why they choose this answer. And you see that it tends to degrade performance, of course, because they didn't have this compute budget to think about the end solution. So, yeah, a lot of different ways to approach this topic. I don't think that anyone has cracked down what true","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":70,"time":"27:46","seconds":1666,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"data quality is about because that would be, like, the most successful lab in the world. Right. They'd already have one. They'd they'd be at AGI if if we think that's happening. And, I will say thanks for the the chain of thought shout out here. Obviously, it's the name of the podcast for a reason. We're big believers of the in this idea of don't come in predisposed","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":71,"time":"28:02","seconds":1682,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"to what you're doing. Instead, work through the problem, gather your data, and, be willing to dive into complexity. And you alluded to complexity in data generation and its importance, having multi turn conversations. I know you've done quite a bit of work around synthetic data generation, which feels like a topic that, you know, people go, oh yes, of course, you know, we will do synthetic data generation,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":72,"time":"28:25","seconds":1705,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"but they don't necessarily dive deep into often in these conversations. When do you feel like synthetic data generation works well? And then where are you seeing it fall short today? It works well all the time, to be honest with you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":73,"time":"28:40","seconds":1720,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"Like, I think that 99% of pursuing datasets are synthetic. There's not much human in them, maybe for the prompt actually, but that's pretty much it. The the problem with synthetic data generation is about the diversity because it's very easy to just collapse into something that you think is diverse because you have, like, a ton of different, seed data or a ton of different ways to modify it. But, actually, it's the same data generation process. And because it's the same data generation process, it will limit the diversity.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-73","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":74,"time":"29:18","seconds":1758,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"So to me, this is where synthetic data generation falls short. It's really in this idea that it's very difficult to reinject some diversity. There are some techniques that are super interesting. For example, there's persona sampling where you give the model a character to role play as. For example, you are like a truck driver and you're from this country and you have, like, this background, blah blah blah, and the model will then act as this truck driver.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-74","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":75,"time":"29:50","seconds":1790,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"This is very surprising. This is, work from Alien AI, for example, that discovered that it works even in math. You know? Like, your truck driver, role play actually improves math performance. So there are these techniques to reinject, some diversity, but still, you probably want to have if you want to cover some domain like math, you probably want some various","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-75","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":76,"time":"30:15","seconds":1815,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"many different data generation processes to be able to have a good coverage of it and not just one sampling technique that might just be restricted. And this role play technique has been","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-76","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":77,"time":"30:29","seconds":1829,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"used in quite a bit of prompting that you'll see as well. If you see someone's prompt that they're posting on LinkedIn, this is so great. Uh-huh. I mean, this is particularly true a few months ago, but often you'd see them say, Oh, let me start by defining who you are. You're like, you are this incredible mathematician who can do every problem I need you to do. So we'll see people do that even just in their individual prompts that they're leveraging.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-77","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":78,"time":"30:54","seconds":1854,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So it makes total sense that we're seeing that be successful within synthetic data generation and, and the diversity of the dataset as well. I'm curious to dive into a bit more of where you've seen challenges in this new generation of LFM models. As you were doing post training, what has been the hardest problems to solve? You mentioned diversity. Are there particular areas? That's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-78","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":79,"time":"31:22","seconds":1882,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"a very good question. I don't think, like, we had, like, one major problem that we we really spend a lot of time solving. Because we had this experience with the first generation, I think it was a bit smoother this time. But there there's definitely, like, some issues around, for example, function calling. Function calling is really difficult to nail down. So I use function calling in tool use indifferently. To me, it means pretty much the same thing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-79","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":80,"time":"31:55","seconds":1915,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"And for this, you need to have, like, a specific formatting, right, in your chat template, and you also need to have data that is extremely diverse, even more than for math, for example. We realized that function calling data is quite difficult to generate at a level of quality and quantity that we we want to have. And here, the solution is pretty much the same. It's really about","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-80","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":81,"time":"32:24","seconds":1944,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"reading the data, understanding when you have benchmarks where this fails, trying to solve it with new data. And this is very the iterative loop, the cycle that you have in post training. When you start with the data, you have to spend, like, most of your time on the data, honestly. Then you go through training, you get the models, you get some evaluation, some feedback, and then you can use that to go back to,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-81","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":82,"time":"32:49","seconds":1969,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"the dataset and see how it's possible to improve the results. And, usually, what people don't do enough, in my experience, is reading the responses from the models and reading the samples of of training data. There's no shortcut, from what I could see. You can try to, ask JGPT to help you with that, but it's not going to be so good. Yeah. So you really need to do this manual groundwork of reading the data and understanding, okay, like, why what is the problem here? Why did the model","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-82","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":83,"time":"33:27","seconds":2007,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"what was it the wrong answer? Or even, like, why is it the right answer? What makes it easy for the model to be able to succeed here when it was not able to do it for the other prompt? There's not a lot of magic here. It's it's a ton of groundwork and understanding of the data quality and and complexity.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-83","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":84,"time":"33:48","seconds":2028,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I resonate with that because I think it's a very common problem in software engineering where everyone loves to submit a PR and get their PR merged, but, they may not want to spend a ton of time reviewing others' PRs. They may not want to spend a ton of time editing others' PRs. And that might be the most important part of the entire software development life cycle. And it's certainly something where I think all of us need to iterate and provide feedback, whether it's in our day to day lives, whether it's in our software we're building and clearly in our LLM","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-84","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":85,"time":"34:20","seconds":2060,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"driven architectures. I love that you explicitly mentioned something that sounds like you're going to carry forward to your learnings for, I presume the future LFM three, which is, look, we need to approach function calling this way. We're going to learn from this experience. How, what, what did you learn from LFM one? What learnings are you now taking from LFM two,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-85","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":86,"time":"34:46","seconds":2086,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"you see fueling the future?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-86","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":87,"time":"34:48","seconds":2088,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"Yeah, it's interesting. I think there's all the architecture work that is really important, like, besides post training. Right? I think there's a ton of inference work and compatibility with the open source community that we got a lot better at, and we want to double down on that. Because if you create your own architecture, the problem is that it's not compatible with anything.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-87","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":88,"time":"35:14","seconds":2114,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"So you have to reimplement it from scratch in every library that you want to use. Hugging Face transformers, it can be VLLM, it can be SGLANG, LAMA CPP, etcetera, etcetera. So this part was a big lesson, I think, with the first generation of models. The second generation, it was still very costly to do it. So with the third generation, I hope that we can find operators that are maybe a bit more friendly","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-88","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":89,"time":"35:44","seconds":2144,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"to to implement. And I think honestly, this might be one of the biggest lessons that we've had with the LFM series. But about burst tuning in particular, I think there's been a lot of lessons about data quality, but also going from copying training techniques that we see from papers and from, like, other people into making our own in house that are customized for our models","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-89","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":90,"time":"36:18","seconds":2178,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"and also small models. I think this is really nice as a scientific topic because everybody is kinda focused on the big models, on the Kimi k two and Deepsikar ones of the world. And I think this is very interesting. Right? There's no issue with that at all. It's just that I think there's not a lot of interest in general for these small models, but they are truly interesting","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-90","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":91,"time":"36:43","seconds":2203,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"because you have a lot more complexity that you need to work around. Something that we found is, like, knowledge is really really depends on the number of parameters, and you can try to squeeze as much knowledge, for example, with knowledge distillation into one b model. It will never be as smart as a three b model. That's a fact. And you need to find fixes around it so it doesn't completely hallucinate","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-91","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":92,"time":"37:10","seconds":2230,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"when the user ask a simple question. So this is one of the core lessons that I think will will drive forward with the next generations is this expertise in working with small models, knowing their capabilities, but also their pitfalls, and you need to play on their strength, basically. I think that's the main lesson here. I think that's a fantastic","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-92","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":93,"time":"37:38","seconds":2258,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"point. And too often, we see AI engineers come in and say, oh, I want use the most powerful model. And actually it's finding the right model for your use case and understanding your constraints. Maybe your constraint is it needs to be on an edge device. And so maybe you can only run that 1B model there. Or maybe you're actually better off with, you know, we mentioned multi agent systems briefly earlier. Maybe you have three 1B","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-93","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":94,"time":"38:05","seconds":2285,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"model, agents that are working together and maybe that outperforms a more generalized agent. There there's a variety of considerations here. And I'm sure that an another one is occurring when you are doing your post training here, as you're doing your evaluations of success, as you're understanding, essentially what what you want to deliver with each of these models,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-94","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":95,"time":"38:30","seconds":2310,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"it sounds like you're having to customize quite a bit from the more generalized benchmarks that we're seeing. Can you talk a bit about that process as, obviously, it's something that's near and dear to our hearts as well? Yes. So in terms of benchmarks, we have our own stack internally","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-95","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":96,"time":"38:47","seconds":2327,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"because there are a lot of really good open source evaluations, but you want your own to be able to be a bit more narrow in the skills that you focus. For example, it can be a specific type of function calling that you want to be really good at because you think it's it's very important for small models to be good at that. An example of this is web search. We think that because you don't have the knowledge that is needed to ace some questions,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-96","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":97,"time":"39:17","seconds":2357,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"it's fine. You can give a web search function to your one b model, and that might allow it to just Google it, Google the the the the the topic of the question and retrieve the right, answer. So this is the kind of evaluation that we want to design and focus on. And, also, we try to repurpose evaluations for frontier models that are a bit older, because now that's you know, there is the frontier models,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-97","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":98,"time":"39:48","seconds":2388,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"that create all these fancy evaluations, but it doesn't make sense to evaluate a one b model on it. It would get, like, 1% at best. But","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-98","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":99,"time":"39:58","seconds":2398,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"the funny thing is that they age Have you had any liquid models played a werewolf game or anything? I am curious. Not not yet. Not yet. Okay. Okay. Sorry. I'm derailing, but I was just like, wait a second. I gotta know. But this is interesting what she's mentioning because","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-99","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":100,"time":"40:11","seconds":2411,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"I think that now small models might be able to do a better job at this kind of stuff. Because in the past, they were really bad at multisten conversations, for example. They were really bad at long context length. But as we progress, it's not only the frontier models that progress. I think there's even more progress in terms of small models. Like, they're catching up also quite fast. They're still going to be,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-100","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":101,"time":"40:35","seconds":2435,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"disabled by some, elements like knowledge that I mentioned. Sure. Still, we can do a lot with them. And for example, if you have a benchmark where you need knowledge, then fine. Like simple QA, for example, from OpenAI. Fine. You can give it tool use, and then it becomes a kind of tool use benchmark instead of a pure knowledge benchmark. And I know a lot of what has fueled this, as you alluded to, is open source evaluations,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-101","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":102,"time":"41:00","seconds":2460,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"open source models, open source techniques coming, I I mean, out of DeepSeek and and many others that you're learning from, you're customizing, you're applying to your own, viewpoints. You've obviously also been an incredible open source contributor, whether it's your LLM course, which, as I mentioned, 39,000 plus stars on GitHub. Maybe by the time this comes out, it'll be 40,000 plus. I don't know.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-102","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":103,"time":"41:24","seconds":2484,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"You've worked on open source models, tools, courses, books. What drives your commitment to open source, and how do you see it as integral to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-103","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":104,"time":"41:34","seconds":2494,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"the AI and machine learning community? Okay. First, let me fact check here. It actually has 66,000 stars. Oh,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-104","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":105,"time":"41:42","seconds":2502,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"man. So this is actually funny because this is what I get for relying on an AI model to help me draft something. So clearly I clearly pulled something. I didn't I didn't fact check the number of stars. So this is I wish probably leave this in actually. So you've released an incredible amount of open source work. You've got 66,000 stars on GitHub with your LLM course,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-105","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":106,"time":"42:04","seconds":2524,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"as you've done so many other things though as well, whether it's models, tools, courses, books, what drives your commitment to open source and how do you see it impacting","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-106","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":107,"time":"42:15","seconds":2535,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"AI and machine learning going forward? Yeah. So open source for me is quite selfish, honestly. It's mostly me trying to learn stuff online, and then it gets picked up a lot. Mhmm. But I think it's it's actually quite important to do it for yourself and not for other people because, well, this is your own interest. Right? And this is an incredible way of learning new things.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-107","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":108,"time":"42:40","seconds":2560,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"Whether you write articles about a topic that interests you, I think this is the most powerful way of really learning about it, especially if it's technical article where you also provide code, you also provide a notebook. There's a ton of times where I was sure I knew something, and then you write about it, and you're like, actually, I need to double check the implementation.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-108","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":109,"time":"43:00","seconds":2580,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"It can be your own thing as well. Like, sometimes I have to reread my own articles to make sure I I still understand something.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-109","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":110,"time":"43:09","seconds":2589,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"No. I I feel like until I write or build something, I truly don't understand a topic. And if I write about it, I will very quickly understand where I don't understand things. I'll be like, oh god, these five areas, I I gotta go dive deeper here. I totally get it. Exactly. And this is the beauty with open","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-110","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":111,"time":"43:25","seconds":2605,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"source work is that because you know that they're going to be a ton of strangers looking at your work, you really do not want to mess it up, so","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-111","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":112,"time":"43:36","seconds":2616,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"you double down. You're making me sweat over here, Maxime.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-112","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":113,"time":"43:39","seconds":2619,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"You double down on it, but to be fair, like people are generally nice online, except in some communities, but usually, they're they're really nice online. Maybe not on Twitter. Yeah. Twitter is not the worst, honestly, I have to say. But, yeah, this is a good way to learn, and it's the same with datasets and models and tools that I've made. I did them for myself, honestly. Like, the tools, I made them because I needed them. I needed a nice way to run benchmarks because it was too complicated back then.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-113","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":114,"time":"44:10","seconds":2650,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"I needed a way to merge models automatically because I was writing an article about it, and I wanted to run ablations to understand better. Okay. Like, do I need to use this merging technique, this merging technique, etcetera? And it's funny because then it was used in scientific articles. Like, some authors reached out to me and said, like, oh, thank you. Like, actually, we run","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-114","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":115,"time":"44:33","seconds":2673,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"our experiments with your tool, and this is this is beautiful, like, because you you started doing it for yourself, and then, yeah, maybe if there were better options, they would have used another one, but they used mine, so this is cool. I I think that's fantastic.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-115","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":116,"time":"44:46","seconds":2686,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Is there a particular open source project that you're most proud of?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-116","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":117,"time":"44:50","seconds":2690,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"I tend not to maintain them very well, to be honest with you, but I would say That's a lot of work. Yeah. Exactly. The LLM course is, like, what I'm proud of because it it's more popular than me, honestly. People tell me, oh, you're the guy from the LLM course. Okay. I know now. And there's also the LLM datasets for people who are interested in fine tuning. It's another repo","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-117","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":118,"time":"45:16","seconds":2716,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"that has a lot of datasets for different stuff. It can be for math, for function calling, and, even preferences. So this one, I think, is truly useful,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-118","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":119,"time":"45:29","seconds":2729,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and I I will try to update it soon now that I've talked about it. Yeah. We're we're holding you accountable. I'm making you talk about it on the podcast, but we'll definitely link it too in this, the show notes, so be careful here. But as we wrap up, I want to look forward a bit. Obviously you have this unique vantage point. You're building next generation architectures.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-119","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":120,"time":"45:49","seconds":2749,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"You're working across the full stack in many ways, and you're deeply plugged into the open source community. What emerging trends in AI are you most excited about or most concerned about? I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-120","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":121,"time":"46:03","seconds":2763,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"think something that excites me right now, and I've started thinking about it more and more is how we're going to build operating systems in the future, operating systems for phones, tablets, wearables, laptops, whatever, because you probably cannot do it without AI anymore. And it feels like these tools are becoming so useful that either you do it on an application level and each application","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-121","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":122,"time":"46:36","seconds":2796,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"downloads and loads its own LLM or has API call, but it's it's not always possible. Right? Latency to your point, cost. Yeah. Exactly. And online connectivity. If, for example, if you do it in a car, well, like, goodbye. It's not going to be very useful most of the time. So there's a way that we might have a foundation layer of AI models. It can be LLM, but it can also be other things that you provide to developers.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-122","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":123,"time":"47:08","seconds":2828,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"So they can build their applications with this, knowing that they always have this model that they can call on a OS level. And, yeah, I think this is really, really exciting because it will deeply shape the way that we create apps. And I hope that in the future, the apps get a bit smarter and, you know, you don't have to fiddle with your settings. And, yeah, you just have better interaction","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-123","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":124,"time":"47:35","seconds":2855,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"with these systems.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-124","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":125,"time":"47:36","seconds":2856,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I think that could be really, really cool. Maxime, this has been an incredible conversation. I've had a ton of fun. Thank you so much for diving deep with me. Two questions to close us out. One, where should listeners go to to follow your work?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-125","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":126,"time":"47:50","seconds":2870,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"You've got a lot of places where they can find you. Yeah. You can search Maxime Laban on LinkedIn or Twitter. This is where I am most of the time. Fantastic.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-126","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":127,"time":"47:59","seconds":2879,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I'll recommend your GitHub website as well. I will link all of those in the show notes, but you've got a ton of great links and some blogs in there. The final question I'd love to ask you is what you're seeing in the future. So you've alluded to a few things like, oh, you know, obviously, you believe in this idea of models on the edge, of changing how we interact with them at times.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-127","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":128,"time":"48:22","seconds":2902,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"But what about new architectures? What about, you know, new tools that are coming out? What are you seeing in the coming years or or months that you expect to change how we all think about AI and build with it? In terms of architectures,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-128","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":129,"time":"48:37","seconds":2917,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"it's it's sad to say, but it's always a question of trade offs. So having a new revolutionary architecture like the transformer seems to be unlikely to me, honestly. But there's a lot of interesting work with tiny recursive models and that kind of stuff for reasoning. And I like these models because they they correlate knowledge from reasoning, and I think this is a powerful","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-129","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":130,"time":"49:05","seconds":2945,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"paradigm. The problem is I would like to integrate them into LLMs. So there's been this paper by Francois Laurier called the free transformer that tries to integrate reasoning, that this reasoning engine into an LLM. And I think that could be, in terms of architecture, something that we see more and more because it's not just about building blocks. It's like another idea of kind of offloading the reasoning parts of LLMs into another component,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-130","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":131,"time":"49:36","seconds":2976,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"and that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-131","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":132,"time":"49:37","seconds":2977,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"might be a huge change if it's successful. It's interesting you you say that because I I I don't know if I believe there's gonna be a short term change around transform architecture. I I agree with you. The next couple of years, I think we are where we are. There's gonna be, you know, adaptions, hybridizations. Obviously, we're seeing that already. Liquid and many others.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-132","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":133,"time":"49:56","seconds":2996,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Well, actually not many others. Y'all are really at the bleeding edge here. But I I do think long term, we're gonna see a change from the current transformer architecture. But I I I think it's a question of how far out is that? Is that ten years? Is that five years? Is that is that forty? And we've seen this happen throughout AI's history. Right? Because really it goes back to, I mean, back to the fifties and elsewhere where we've, we've had these continual","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-133","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":134,"time":"50:20","seconds":3020,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"moves forward. So I don't know. I, I, I look at how humans learn and how LMs learn, it's still so different that it feels like we are just scratching the surface of the possibilities to me. But maybe maybe I'm a little too out of my sci fi here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-134","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":135,"time":"50:39","seconds":3039,"speaker":"Maxime Labonne","text":"No. Think I I agree. Yeah. Like, there's definitely better training algorithm that we haven't found yet, and that might be also","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-135","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":136,"time":"50:47","seconds":3047,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"even more important than changing the architecture really. Well, like RL, for example, right, where it's like we we basically go and say, like, the the model succeeded on this route. Let's upvote everything it did in this route regardless of whether all the steps to get there actually worked as well as they ought to. And I mean, we see I look at like, I don't know, silly videos of, of kids where they, they all have to reinvent crawling from first principles in order to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-136","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":137,"time":"51:14","seconds":3074,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"begin to move about the world. And sometimes they do it a little differently. Some people roll, some people are kind of scrabbling around before they, they start crawling. So yeah, I don't know. There's just such an interesting open opportunity here around learning. And then I will say it makes this field so fascinating because not only are we learning all the time,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-137","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":138,"time":"51:33","seconds":3093,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"but we're basically trying to teach machines to learn, right? So, it's, it's, it's a lot of fun and, Maxime, I'll say I've, I've learned a lot just talking to you here. So thank you so much for coming on the show. It's been a distinct pleasure. We will, we will link, your LinkedIn and everything else, in the show notes, your, we'll definitely link your Hugging Face profile as well. I know you've got quite a few things on there.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-138","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne","episode":43,"guid":"f3f1a777-7d13-452f-bfc6-b200d5beab91","episodeTitle":"Beyond Transformers: How Liquid AI Is Rethinking LLM Architecture | Maxime Labonne","publishedAt":"2025-11-12","segmentIndex":139,"time":"51:54","seconds":3114,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And of course, the LM Engineer's Handbook. Listeners, if you enjoy this conversation, deliver it, and then hopefully deliver the technical depth you're looking for, let us know. Please drop a comment on LinkedIn when you see these this posted or Spotify telling us what resonated or YouTube. And if there are other deep dives that you wanna see on Chain of Thought, we are listening. Maxime, we're gonna have to have you back some time too because this was a ton of fun. Thanks so much for joining Thanks a lot.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/43-beyond-transformers-how-liquid-ai-is-rethinking-llm-architecture-maxime-labonne/#t-139","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"You cannot just look at a model benchmark and feel that, hey, like this is a good enough model for me to use in my workflow, and then just like tie it together with each other. That's the worst thing that you can do because none of these models understand like I can break any model with a bunch of quirky, twisted prompts. So that's where it's important to understand that, hey, like, how do you architect it as a software?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:25","seconds":25,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Welcome back to Chain of Thought, everyone. I am your host, Conor Bronsdon. And today, we're diving into one of the critical challenges facing our industry, taking AI agents from promising prototypes to reliable production systems that operate at scale. And we have the perfect guy joining us. Ash Srinivasan is a renowned AI expert, head of AI developer relations at Fireworks AI, a powerful voice for building AI the right way. You also may know Ash from her,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":2,"time":"0:54","seconds":54,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"what, 600,000 followers on LinkedIn that she has developed and the incredible content that she shares there. Ash, welcome to the show. It is so good to see you. Thank you so much, Conor. I'm very glad to be here. Yeah. We've had the opportunity to collaborate a couple of times already, but we haven't actually sat down for a one on one conversation like this that was recorded. So I think this will be a fantastic way for us to dive deeper into some of the things that I know we're really excited about with LLMs and small English models, evaluation driven development, so much more. But let's start with the bedrock of all of this. It's one thing to build a really cool agent demo. We've seen a lot of them. I know you have in particular.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:31","seconds":91,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"But it's another thing entirely to deploy it to potentially millions of users responsibly. When we talk about responsible AI in the context of agents at scale, what are the top risks that you're seeing? I think when we're going from","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":4,"time":"1:46","seconds":106,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"building a prototype to building something in production, one of the biggest differences comes when we are seeing LLMs as tools versus LLMs part of tools. What I mean by that is since maybe like 2022, end of twenty twenty two, 2023, we have seen a lot of applications which are so called wrappers around LLMs. And the reason it's being called such is at the end of the day, it is a little bit of engineering,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":5,"time":"2:20","seconds":140,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"but most of it is LLM calls. That's what's happening. We are expecting that this LLM is going be the magic box where we're going to ask it any sort of questions, follow ups, and it's going to get us the end product. And I think that has quickly changed where people have realized that, hey, it's way more of a software engineering challenge rather than just a model building challenge.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":6,"time":"2:45","seconds":165,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"That is one part of it, sure. That is why all the frontier model labs are working towards it. But when it comes to building an application that uses generative AI as a brain for it, things get way more complicated. So when people say about responsible AI, right, one of the biggest risks or challenges that I've seen or one of the issues that gets tackled is around how much autonomy is right autonomy.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":7,"time":"3:13","seconds":193,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"Because of the pure nondeterministic nature of the model, it sometimes is very hard to go through all of the edge cases and understand where a model might fail. So people are obviously going with eval data sets, trying to understand that, hey, like this is how it performs on my eval set. But at the end of the day, the question is how good is the benchmark? Why you have chosen that model? How good is the eval set that you have built?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":8,"time":"3:44","seconds":224,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"It's as good as you think it is, but there is no like gold standards for you to quantify how good that is. So at the end of the day, it only gets as good as you're testing it in your development environment. But as soon as it goes into production, there are a lot more variability that it encounters. And it's very simple, right? Like the exact same way how we have seen chatbot grow from,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":9,"time":"4:08","seconds":248,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"hey, select between these four options to more language specific chatbots, which uses like Dialogflow at the end of the day, to what we have right now, which is a completely autonomous LLM model that's able to converse without any boundaries to it, right? As soon as that happens, it's very hard to keep it under a specific territory. And that's where it is it needs to be very well planned on where you add a human in the loop.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":10,"time":"4:38","seconds":278,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"So that's one of the top challenges, right? Like how much autonomy is too much autonomy, which all are the places where we need to have human in the loop. And there's no right answer to it. It all depends about how your user journey looks like with that particular toolkit, where are the possible points of risks, and which are the places where it makes most sense for you to have a human in the loop or have a more deterministic","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":11,"time":"5:02","seconds":302,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"review or checkpoint at that point in time. So that's one of the biggest risks that I've seen. Now, second thing that I've seen is with these kind of models, because even the testing is not very rigorous or it's not very deterministic, it's not very quantified, people are still going with this vibe eval where it's like, hey, I'm just going to run the model. I know this particular coding question on top of my mind, I'm just going to run it through the model and see how it performs. Oh, it does good. But how many times can you really check? How rigorously can you check for","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":12,"time":"5:39","seconds":339,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"these models and how they perform and how they are going to perform when you land them in your users' hands. That stress testing is something which is still a big question mark. The third thing that I've seen is around reward hacking, because in the systems that we are building, we are using a lot of reinforcement models. So whether it be for fine tuning or human in the loop, we are using a lot of reinforcement models.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":13,"time":"6:06","seconds":366,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"And it does sometimes come back and bite you in the way that the agents try to find those shortcuts or they reverse engineer how it can maximize the rewards that you've put inside the system. And that can sometimes come back and bite you. So these are like the top three things that I have seen particularly with respect to challenges which are aligned to responsible AI agentic systems.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":14,"time":"6:33","seconds":393,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"You brought up a ton of great points there. I mean, the whole topic of evaluation, we can definitely dive into. And I think the other piece that really struck me is this idea of finding the right context for LLMs. And there's a reason that we're hearing the phrase context engineering talked about so much more. You know? Folks were talking about, oh, prompt engineering, and, of course, folks are still adapting prompts.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":15,"time":"6:56","seconds":416,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"But actually enabling our systems with the right context can be really challenging. You have a a deep background in data centric AI. How are you thinking through the right data approaches that will actually enable AI systems and agents with the context they need to be successful and help hopefully address some of these risks and failure modes before they make it to production? Absolutely.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":16,"time":"7:24","seconds":444,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"I think data centric behavior is not something which is specific to machine learning. That's my background is in. I have been working in machine learning much before like Gen AI became cool. So data centric AI is something that I've been doing before. And it's very well applicable to what we are calling as context engineering right now. And let me like maybe for the viewers, if they've not heard about it or are not very","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":17,"time":"7:53","seconds":473,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"well versed with what it is, the entire shift that we have seen from prompt engineering to context engineering has happened because of the very reason that I was talking about. When we're building systems, it's not just a LLM prompt anymore. It's not an API call anymore where you're just getting the output and that becomes your product, right? Like that's not the end result that you're looking for. You're trying to build a system,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":18,"time":"8:20","seconds":500,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"which means that you're going to have a combination of different modality of models. You're going to have different combination of smaller models, mid sized model, larger models. Some of them are going to be fine tuned. Some of them are going to be distilled. Some of them are going to be proprietary. Some of them are going to be open source. And all of this combines with the data that it is getting access to, the memory systems that you're building,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":19,"time":"8:44","seconds":524,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"the tool calls that you're giving it access to. So all of these combine and formulate a more software engineering problem again, right? And that's where this entire context engineering is coming in picture because now that models are conversing with each other, it's not just about the user prompt and the system prompt anymore. It's about all the logs and traces that is going back and forth between each and every model to model conversation,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":20,"time":"9:12","seconds":552,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"between say a traditional machine learning model and your large language model, anything that's happening between the data set that it's trying to access, between the tools that it has called, and everything in between. So it's becoming a huge clutter of logs and traces and how you're going to think about the fallback if anything in the system breaks down. And that's somewhere where it's very important to think about","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":21,"time":"9:39","seconds":579,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"what data is fueling the back end of all of these systems and where is it pulling the information from. So starting from the very first thing, right, like even today, like when I'm talking to my friends working at Frontier Labs, there are folks, and this is still a super, super manual process, when they have to go and download data manually because they have to sanitize it. They have to make sure that it is very high quality.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":22,"time":"10:09","seconds":609,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"Because at the end of the day, if you're trying to fine tune a model or you're trying to build a coding agent, you need to train it with the data that is really high quality. As soon as you feed in a large language model, when you're building a foundational model with bad code, it is going to mess up the output. It's going to fail on the benchmarks. So this process is still very manual, whether going in like trying to find the most sanitized, the most clean code, which with like high programming standards that is used to like train these foundation models. That's step one, which is pre training.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":23,"time":"10:45","seconds":645,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"Same goes on when you're doing a post training for these models. Whenever organizations are trying to fine tune them or distill these models and trying to customize it for the use cases that they have, it comes back to how are they gathering that data? Does it reflect the right kind of data that that is the use case for which they're building for? The same thing again propagates to when you're trying to test it for evals.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":24,"time":"11:12","seconds":672,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"If you're testing it with the wrong data or the bad data or the data which is not diverse enough, you're not going to get real results of how your actual model is performing. So again, it all comes back to like what kind of the quality of data that you're using. And going back again to something like reinforcement fine tuning or reinforcement human feedback,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":25,"time":"11:35","seconds":695,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"not every human feedback is going to be the right feedback to your model. How do you distinguish between what's a good feedback that you've received from the user and what's a bad feedback? Because if you end up training it with every single feedback, then you're going to vulnerabilities. So all of these, if we think about the core of or the foundation of where all of these problems stem from or what's the right","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":26,"time":"12:05","seconds":725,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"key to solving all of these problems, it comes down to how do you get the right quality data? How do you get the most correctly annotated data that you can use to train your models?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":27,"time":"12:15","seconds":735,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And as teams work through this challenge in different domains, I think we've seen an obvious spike domain here where software engineering, there's so much good quality data out there. There's also a lot of bad code. Please do not ever train a model off my GitHub. Not a good idea. But there's plenty of great code out there that is very well labeled, very well commented,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":28,"time":"12:36","seconds":756,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"excellently done, that that can be used to train these models. And it's interesting because we also have developers and PMs who are working on these AI models who can act as subject matter experts for that human feedback you mentioned. And so I think we're seeing that use case move ahead particularly fast because not only do you have SME experts who are already on hand, you don't have to go find a bunch of lawyers, for example, to double check the data. They're just already working at the company. But you also have a vast","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":29,"time":"13:09","seconds":789,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"supply of potentially very strong open source code, and many other projects. And this is where companies can also leverage their own code bases to assign things like, hey, this is gonna be the right standards we want. This is the approach we want. But this gets more complicated as we expand the use cases we're considering, whether that's something along the lines of,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":30,"time":"13:31","seconds":811,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"you know, broader writing and chat with the chatbots versus code specific, you know, it's quick for us to see or quite quickly we see that concerns around fairness, transparency, safety start to come in. And with agents making autonomous decisions, whether that's in customer support or many other use cases, this is a key area of concern for many enterprises in particular.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":31,"time":"13:59","seconds":839,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Maybe you're not worried about it in a demo, but as you actually start putting this out to thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions of people, this becomes a problem. I know we've thought about this from a standpoint of, okay, working with a lot of our customers around providing them in production guardrails they can apply to block things like personal identifying information,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":32,"time":"14:19","seconds":859,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"safety concerns, and also, of course, customize to their needs. But beyond simply guardrailing, as useful as that is, what are the other considerations you think teams should be taking into their processes as they try to ensure that their agents are actually delivering on the promise that they've set out to solve?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":33,"time":"14:40","seconds":880,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"So the short answer is trying to quantify anything and everything in that system that you're building. Because that's what comes handy when you're trying to scale things. And that's what comes handy when you have to go back and look at where things broke and why things broke. Parts of what we talk about tracing or logs or understanding how the agent behavior changes with different user prompts,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":34,"time":"15:11","seconds":911,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"it all comes back to, hey, how do you define what is good or bad? So it's all about like those metric definitions and all of those quantifiable elements that really helps you build that reliability in any particular system. So one of the examples is when we are looking at something as simple as a copilot, like a coding copilot, and we're talking about, hey, what level of autonomy","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":35,"time":"15:41","seconds":941,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"do we want to give this particular model? Do we let it write the code for me? Should I let it also review the code for me? Should I also let it write unit tests for me? Should I also let it push the code and like merge the code for me? For any of these steps, there are different levels of quantification that you want to do, right? Like at every given step, is it doing right? Is it not doing right? At any given point in time, do I need a human reviewer or do we need a different model maybe to judge","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":36,"time":"16:15","seconds":975,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"the response of that, like having an active critic system right there. So all of those are very important to understand where are those guardrails, where do they need to sit, and how much autonomy do you want to build it in that system. And as I said, there's no right answer to like how much autonomy. It is completely dependent on the use cases. You were talking about a use case where you have PII.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":37,"time":"16:40","seconds":1000,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"It would be completely different if in my case, there is no PII, right? The level of autonomy versus the level of human intervention that you want to have in any particular system is very subjective to what's the level of risk that you have, what is the level of scrutiny or compliance that you're building that under. So, for example, in like going back to the coding example,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":38,"time":"17:03","seconds":1023,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"right? Like if there is a point where I have automated the entire pipeline, right from where it understands what I wanted to do, it codes it out, it writes unit tests for me, it does a code review, It pushes and merges the code into the main branch. If something breaks, how exactly do I go back and see where it broke and why it broke? And can I really reverse","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":39,"time":"17:28","seconds":1048,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"each and every step that happened along the way? And that is really important when you're trying to think about fallback options. If something breaks, how do you trace it back and how do you make it right? Because if you have not logged all of those things, if you have not had like checkpoints along the way for how a model is performing, how is it responding and how is it","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":40,"time":"17:51","seconds":1071,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"merging any code into your code base, then it's going to be extremely hard for you to go figure out what broke, why it broke, and how do you avoid from it to happen again. So all through this way, what's really important is that how do you quantify each and every step that your model is taking? How do you quantify each and every step of your system? And how do you have evaluations","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":41,"time":"18:17","seconds":1097,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"running at every given checkpoint? So that really helps you to build something which is scalable. And at the same time, you're not just falling back on subject matter experts to review it and see if it's right or not. And it's something that can be logged and it can be something that you can look at at a dashboard and see like what's going wrong. So instead of like you having to manually go through all the logs and figure out what went wrong, you have all of that available in a very quantified manner And you're able to pick and choose. And you can really pinpoint and say that why things broke,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":42,"time":"18:57","seconds":1137,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and how do you not let that happen again. I think you're spot on that we have to treat observability of our AI systems as fundamental, because we need to be able to unpack and root cause analysis what is actually going on, what's broken. Do we have an agentic tool error problem, or is it a context window issue? Is it simply an efficiency piece, and we need to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":43,"time":"19:20","seconds":1160,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"improve the actual ability of our LLM to make calls more more rapidly? Or maybe we just simply haven't paid our API bill and we're getting stuck. It really depends. I think this is why we see, as we get past testing, a so often evaluations for agents become obsolete if they haven't been customized to an organization's needs. And a lot of engineers are starting off of either open datasets for their evals and scores,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":44,"time":"19:52","seconds":1192,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"or for out based off of out of the box metrics, like ones we provide on agents, for example, action completion. And those are all great and useful, but it's once you actually fine tune those for your use case and customize them for your use case that I think they really start to shine. Are you seeing AI builders actually take on this customization challenge, or do you feel like we're still at a point where there's a lot of confusion for builders","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":45,"time":"20:18","seconds":1218,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"about what it means to effectively evaluate AI systems?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":46,"time":"20:22","seconds":1222,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"I feel it depends on who are we talking about. I wouldn't really generalize saying that, hey, like, everybody is confused or everybody is, like, doing it the right way. I think it's different when it comes to deeply technical professionals. I think people who have worked with machine learning operational systems have a good understanding on how they should be defined, even though there is slight difference between how machine learning traditional machine learning models work versus how large language models work. There's a lot to do with context window memory, etcetera, which sort of is quite different. And the model nature is also quite different.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":47,"time":"21:02","seconds":1262,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"But I think people who have had deep expertise running machine learning models at scale have been able to adapt to that change well. Compared to that, folks who are sort of coming from a nontechnical machine learning background, now that the barrier to entry for building anything with LLMs have become so easy, I think that's the area of vulnerability where I'm seeing where","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":48,"time":"21:32","seconds":1292,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"a lot of early founders who don't have a deep technical background, who have not really built systems at scale, who don't have a good understanding of ML system design, when they are coming in and they're seeing that, hey, I have a bunch of these white coding tools out there where I can spin up a system in minutes, and they don't really go through that thorough analysis","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":49,"time":"21:55","seconds":1315,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"of how original systems used to be built. Having solid PRDs before you build a product, having solid understanding of what does the user journey look like, what does that each and every step look like in the process, talking about the flow of data like that. It's also part of context engineering, right? Like how do we evaluate each and every step of how the data flows","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":50,"time":"22:22","seconds":1342,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"inside a large language model and through the system. People who have not done that or people who are coming from non machine learning backgrounds, I feel primarily are confused, are figuring out because they have a solid business need of why they need to build this product, but they lack that engineering expertise.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":51,"time":"22:44","seconds":1364,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It sounds like you think not only from a context engineering perspective, but also perhaps even an evaluation driven development perspective, which is terminology that really has only come into vogue over the last year, and I think maybe harkens back to this idea of test driven development from traditional software engineering. What's your perspective on the decision making process for","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":52,"time":"23:06","seconds":1386,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"folks who are perhaps newer to AI and maybe don't have that deep machine learning background? How should they be thinking through when to add evaluation observability to their systems? Is this something that, you know, has to be a p zero? You start doing it from the very start. Is it does it depend on the use case more so?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":53,"time":"23:26","seconds":1406,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"What what's your perspective? It depends on how soon they want to build something in production. If it's sooner, then definitely that should be your day one thought of how are you planning to build evals into your system. But if it's something where you're like, I'm building a prototype. I am going to go pitch that to IC and see how things goes. That's something that you can","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":54,"time":"23:50","seconds":1430,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"think about later. So it depends on how soon do you think your system can go from your laptop to a cloud hosted environment and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":55,"time":"24:00","seconds":1440,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"available for people to use? And the risk factor you talked about earlier too, for sure, where like, hey, do you have PAI that may be surfaced from that application? Yeah, you might need some guardrails in place. May need to have live evals. Of course, this monitoring is dependent upon what use case folks have. I think this also comes back to your points about responsible AI and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":56,"time":"24:26","seconds":1466,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"considering, as you put it from from first principles, okay, what am I doing with this? Let me make sure I actually have this set out. Let's I mean, not just vibe cut my way into potentially a mess, but actually think through the architecture and the goals that I'm setting forth for whatever agent we're building. You also mentioned a specific evaluation technique that is no longer new, but I think is very central to how evals are being conducted today.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":57,"time":"24:50","seconds":1490,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And it's no longer focused on humans as evaluators or at least not first line evaluators. Most folks are using LM as judge, at least to some extent within their systems. And you mentioned very kindly our prep call for this, that you enjoyed the insights in our ebook on the topic, Mastering LM as Judge. And I'd love to get your perspective. Is this an approach that you see every team should be applying at scale,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":58,"time":"25:18","seconds":1518,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"or are there inherent risks to leveraging LLMs? And we need to be considering the biases and and guardrailing them in some way. There definitely is risks that come to using LLM as a judge because","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":59,"time":"25:33","seconds":1533,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"you're saying that, you know, on one hand, you're saying that, hey, I'm using a LLM, and it can sometimes not produce the right kind of output. So you are inherently defining the nature of how the model looks like. And then you are saying that, hey, with the same exact characteristics, we're putting another model to go and judge how this previous model was doing. So it's in","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":60,"time":"26:00","seconds":1560,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"a way, if you're trying to say that, hey, this model is blind, then you're taking another blind model to go and check how the previous model is doing. So that's not really going to help in some use cases, but they are great in some other use cases. So one of the things is LLM as a judge, it's great if you are trying to measure something which is not very quantifiable.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":61,"time":"26:31","seconds":1591,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"So the reason I say that is if you have a LLM output, a particular result, and when you're building that system, you have a good understanding of what that range of output could look like or what that range of answers could look like and what a right or what a wrong answer could look like. If there is like a statefulness in that system, then going with traditional","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":62,"time":"26:59","seconds":1619,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"evals is the best thing to do. But in a lot of cases, that's not how things are. A lot of cases, one of the examples that I can talk about, right, like something as simple as, hey, be my writing assistant. It is such a subjective use case. And the reason it is, is because the way I write is very different from how somebody else's write or how a third person writes or how somebody who is a native English speaker writes or how somebody who is proficient in Mandarin writes. It's very, very different. So when","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":63,"time":"27:36","seconds":1656,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"the use case is that undefined or difficult to define where the boundaries are not very specific, having an LLM as a judge can actually help because you're using a different model which also has a wide variety of knowledge base in it to go and judge how the previous model did. Now, obviously, like even for LLM as a judge, you can fine tune it to certain extent because if you are using","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":64,"time":"28:08","seconds":1688,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"this LLM plus LLM as a judge combo for, say, a storyboard writing use case or a poem writing use case or a go writing use case, for example, there are still some boundaries that you want the models to follow. So in those scenarios, you can fine tune the LLM as a judge model to also like perform a specific way. But inherently, like when the output range can be different for","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":65,"time":"28:35","seconds":1715,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"every single user, that's when it's helpful to like use LLM as a judge. It does come with its own challenges the same way an LLM comes with the challenges. But for any any of those scenarios, it's rightfully one of the best ways to deal with it rather than, like, not having anything at all. Yeah. It's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":66,"time":"28:56","seconds":1736,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"typically better to do something even if it's not the perfect thing when it comes to eval's observability. Having at least something in place is gonna start to give you telemetry that will prove valuable as you fine tune and adjust your approach down the line. But let's shift our focus a little here. I know something that is extremely important to you and that you're passionate about is the open source community,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":67,"time":"29:19","seconds":1759,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"both as an area that you've, you know, spent time professionally, spent time in your free time. And of course, as we discussed earlier, it's an incredibly important dataset for LLMs to train off of as well. How do you think the proliferation of both data and now powerful open source models has fundamentally changed the game for teams looking to build AI agents.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":68,"time":"29:49","seconds":1789,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"So funny thing is one of the questions that I get all the time is I'm very vocal about open source community. I advocate for it a lot. And one of the biggest questions that I get is like, if open source is so good, why do we even need proprietary models? And it's a very valid question. And it's something that I keep asking myself every time there is a new open source model come out. And to some extent, I would say that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":69,"time":"30:19","seconds":1819,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"after the DeepSeek v3 model came, we did see that inflection point where the performance and price ratio of what you can really build at a very cost efficient and a very customized manner, something that you have full control on with an open source model compared to a proprietary model, it just went up. Like with DeepSeque three people were like, oh, like we never thought an open source model could be as performant as this one is. And then it was followed up with R1 model. There were different variations of R1 model. Recently, we have had V3.1.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":70,"time":"30:59","seconds":1859,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"And subsequently, we have seen various other labs also produce their own open source models. And they are one of the top used models when I see from an agentic AI behavior, like when I see the use cases that companies are building on, both enterprises as well as startups. They are heavily invested in using open source models for certain use cases. Again, I'm not saying that the industry has completely shifted from using proprietary model. There's obviously like certain reasons around","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":71,"time":"31:28","seconds":1888,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"developer experience, around how easy it is to like get up and running on proprietary models. A lot of times, it is also around model quality. For example, if you're looking at vision capabilities of the model, proprietary models does give you a really, really good performance. So it's a mix of reasons why industries is going and looking at open source models from a customization perspective,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":72,"time":"31:53","seconds":1913,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"from a cost of use perspective, from running it on prem perspective. There are a bunch of reasons there. And what we are seeing is a lot of the companies which had started pivoting into pure proprietary models, including OpenAI, including Meta, including Google as well. Now they have started thinking that, hey, no, we need to invest in open source models as well. That is one","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":73,"time":"32:24","seconds":1944,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"of the edges that they are getting. And rightfully, that's why you're seeing all of the new models coming out. Like, the latest was with OpenAI's GPTOS model. And that's why we're seeing equal level of investment going on in both to some extent. But the top models, if you see, are still coming out of the Kimi models, the Quen models, the DeepSeek models, etcetera. And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-73","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":74,"time":"32:49","seconds":1969,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"they are really, really capable. And we are seeing that shift where people realize that for my use cases, for certain of the use cases where out of the box models are not the right solution for me, where I need more control over how my models are being trained, where I need more control over how my data that I am pushing into the system is being used, where I care about zero data retention policy,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-74","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":75,"time":"33:16","seconds":1996,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"places where I care about customizing the model to the size and to the speed that I care about. In all of those use cases, people are switching to open source models because they just have that autonomy to them in order to customize the model the way they want. From","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-75","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":76,"time":"33:36","seconds":2016,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"your vantage point, where do you see the biggest gaps in the open source AI stack, such as vision, which you mentioned earlier, is an area where proprietary models are doing extremely well, that if these gaps were filled, would unlock a new wave of open source scaled applications that are powered off of open source LLMs.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-76","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":77,"time":"33:59","seconds":2039,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"I think vision is definitely one of the areas where it is harder for the open source models, at least the ones that are out there compared to the proprietary models which are available in the market. Apart from that, yes, there are some level of performance gap that comes with how open source model look like on the benchmarks that we have publicly available.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-77","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":78,"time":"34:26","seconds":2066,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"That being said, again, like most of the use cases when I'm seeing enterprises or startups use these open source models, they are not using it out of the box. They are either like using supervised fine tuning methods to fine tune it or reinforcement learning fine tuning, or even like if they don't have any of the data set or they are not likely pulling in the data to fine tune it, they are using synthetic data to do that. So","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-78","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":79,"time":"34:51","seconds":2091,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"at the end of the day, I feel like people have a clear choice of when they are building a composable system where they require very, very specific outputs from specific models, they are choosing a combination of models. So most of the use cases that I'm seeing, they're never like running it on one particular model. Like One of the use cases that I can talk about is with Notion. We had","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-79","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":80,"time":"35:19","seconds":2119,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"the head of AI engineering from Notion join us for our Dev Day, and she was talking about the use cases that they're running on fireworks. And parts of the Notion AI where latency was really important to them and quality of the responses was very, very important to them, they were not able to get that from the proprietary models. So in those use cases, they did fine tune the models","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-80","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":81,"time":"35:41","seconds":2141,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"on Fireworks AI platform, and they were running it with very, very low latency on their tool. Now, are they using just one model? No, they're using a combination of multiple different models. And that's the concept of like Compound AI systems that we've also been speaking about, which is integrating multimodality of models together, integrating smaller and larger models together,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-81","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":82,"time":"36:04","seconds":2164,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"integrating models with specialized performance metrics together and having them build that end to end system. So I don't see that it's going to be a future where it's not the case that, hey, all the proprietary model shops are going to shut out because there's open source models. I think it's a pros and cons of how these systems are being designed and how the model architecture looks like. What are the specific nuances that model is good at?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-82","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":83,"time":"36:34","seconds":2194,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"I mean, can share a personal example, right? Like I have my preferences on using when I use ChatGPT versus when I use Clot, versus when I use Perplexity, versus when I use Gemini. I use all the four of them, but for slightly different use cases because somewhere I like the way Chattypreeti writes certain things for me, whereas I like certain things about Gemini the way it writes for me. So","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-83","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":84,"time":"37:00","seconds":2220,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"at the end of the day, when the model gets so large and when we are trying to just measure it on top of a benchmark, it's not like an accurate way to judge the performance of a model because at the end of the day, it is not an objective task that we are measuring it against. It is a subjective task and there's no one right answer. There's no four right answers. There could be multiple different right answers. There could be multiple different ways of framing the same thing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-84","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":85,"time":"37:30","seconds":2250,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"Also subjective to the user who's interfacing with these models. So that's where all of these nuances come in play. And yeah, I mean, that's why we are seeing that some companies are focusing on building 600,000,000,000 parameter model versus we are also seeing 20,000,000,000,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-85","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":86,"time":"37:48","seconds":2268,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"4,000,000,000 variations of the same models. I love that you're bringing up both model variation and personal model variation, where I would term that as using different models for different use cases, something I will say I personally do as well. Like, for example, if I'm needing help writing or problem solving, I actually prefer Claude over GPT often. I find it's a little more effective at that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-86","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":87,"time":"38:13","seconds":2293,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I'm curious, from your perspective, do you mind sharing an example or two of when you might switch models if you had a particular set of tasks?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-87","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":88,"time":"38:24","seconds":2304,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"From a so also, probably giving you another example, right? Like, already spoke about using different tools, which is ChatGPT versus Claude versus Perplexity versus Gemini, depending on if I'm needing its help to write a technical blog or something which is a more personable text or if I'm needing it to help me write code or am I asking you to help me write a","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-88","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":89,"time":"38:52","seconds":2332,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"blog around the code? So all of these are very nuanced specific use cases. But I want to give you a use case where it's essentially the same task, but different results is what I find when I'm using a Cursor agent versus when I'm using Claude code. So what I've realized is when I have a very, very defined scope of what I'm trying to build, when I know that in one or two short of the prompting, I am going to get the result that I'm looking for, That's how defined I have. That's how defined I've like written out the problem.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-89","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":90,"time":"39:31","seconds":2371,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"Cursor agent does a good job for me. It does a it's able to like understand what I'm trying to build and it is able to do a very good job at it. But at times what I've seen is, let's say my problem statement is not very well defined. And let's say I give a mildly ambiguous task to Courser Agent and I have to like do a bunch of follow ups on it. It starts breaking.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-90","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":91,"time":"39:56","seconds":2396,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"It tries to like fix one thing, ends up breaking 10 other things, and then I have to do another prompt to like fix that one thing that it broke, and then it ends up breaking like few other things. So it takes a lot of like back and forth to get a right result. And by the time I do that, it has hallucinated a bunch of import statements at the top. So what I've realized is in cases where I probably have a very, very defined","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-91","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":92,"time":"40:21","seconds":2421,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"scope of this is exactly what I want to build. These are the buttons that I want in this particular app. This is the tool that I want you to use the front end for. If I have something that's that specifically defined, then Cursor Code or a Cursor Agent works out better for me. But when it's more collaborative, Claude Code seems to be working better for me. So again, like going back to the point, right, like it's so specific about how your users are going to interact with the model.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-92","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":93,"time":"40:50","seconds":2450,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"Somebody who is an engineering professional would interact with your model differently compared to how a PM would interact with your model versus how a completely nontechnical professional would interact with your model. So that's where I keep coming back to for your use case. How can you define that user journey? How can you quantify the way the users are going to interact with","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-93","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":94,"time":"41:19","seconds":2479,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"your model? Can you build a simulation out of it? That's one question that I typically ask. Hypothetically, if you're trying to build a particular product and I ask you that, hey, you don't have time to go gather a user feedback for this. I need you to get this out in the next couple of hours, next couple of days, let's say, for example, being more realistic.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-94","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":95,"time":"41:40","seconds":2500,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"Can you build a simulation environment where you can exactly point to how your users are going to be using or interacting with this particular model. So if that's something you can define, that's great because you can build test cases around it and you can think about all the possible edge cases that could come in that scenario. But a lot of times people cannot do that because you don't know how your tool is going to be end being used, who's going to use it, how they're going to use it. Are they going to try to deliberately break it or not? So all of those unknowns","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-95","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":96,"time":"42:13","seconds":2533,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"come in play. And that's where it becomes harder for","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-96","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":97,"time":"42:20","seconds":2540,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"the designers to architect a system like that. I love that answer. And I think it's very important to double click on it a bit. Because there's so much customization and personalization that needs to happen depending on your use case, depending on the size of companies you're working with, depending on the type of users you're working with, that just saying even something as","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-97","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":98,"time":"42:46","seconds":2566,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"specific as, Oh, I work with AI engineers, may not actually get you where you need to go. You need to understand what they're trying to achieve. Perhaps you need to understand if this is new AI engineers or folks who've been doing machine learning for years, for example. As you brought up earlier, there's a big difference in how those folks who are newer to the field versus have been around for a while","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-98","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":99,"time":"43:09","seconds":2589,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"are approaching things as fundamental as evaluations. And another crucial area you brought up earlier is the idea of compliance. And you mentioned zero data retention policies, for example. With the accessibility that models have to our data and their systems, including making their own decisions about what to do with that data sometimes if they're in an agentic environment,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-99","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":100,"time":"43:36","seconds":2616,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"there's definite risk. This is why you're seeing risk management teams at large enterprises have very many sleepless nights. What do you see as the unique governance and security challenges that teams need to consider when they make the choice between building skilled agents on open source models, like we've been talking about here,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-100","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":101,"time":"43:58","seconds":2638,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"versus proprietary ones? Are there are there pros and cons that you would encourage them to consider? With proprietary model, I think one of the biggest challenges that come is, as far as I understand, again, there could be difference in policies across different model providers. But in most of the cases, it isn't a zero data retention policy. They do capture","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-101","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":102,"time":"44:21","seconds":2661,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"the data that goes in and out of the model in order to make their models better. So that's one part of it. Second, it can become harder for you to really peel the onion and see where things are breaking, how things are being processed by these models compared to like what you can do when things are open source. You can really tweak the model to the T when you're trying to use an open source model and you're trying to customize that model for your specific use case. Now,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-102","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":103,"time":"44:59","seconds":2699,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"so one of the things that, Conor, you were mentioning around is around compliance and how it would play around in a regulated environment, right? So one of the very basic challenges that come in when you're trying to build a system like this is when users are interacting with your model, how do you control the access that the model gets every time it's interacting with a different user? So that's the traditional","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-103","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":104,"time":"45:26","seconds":2726,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"role based access management that you want to build into your model. And how much information does that model particularly needs to save in its short term memory? Or like what's the exact level of anonymization that you to happen in a particular data being held by a model. So in all of these scenarios, in the typical, again, like this is the typical best practices that I've seen across the board,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-104","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":105,"time":"45:53","seconds":2753,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"is where people try to bring in multi agent systems. They say that, hey, like we have a primary agent which has access to five different things. That's the primary agent that interacts with the user. We're not going to give it access to certain data sets by default, because we know that it could be a point of failure. So what we're going to do is have it send a call to our secondary agent","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-105","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":106,"time":"46:19","seconds":2779,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"that has access to specific data set that you're trying to pull. And based on the parameters that is being shared from the user request, plus whatever the processing has happened on at the primary agent stage to the secondary agent, one of the secondary agents, to see if it matches the criteria at which it should be pulling in that right information and sharing it back to the primary agent.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-106","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":107,"time":"46:44","seconds":2804,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"Now again, it could be something where it does share it back with the primary agent, but the primary agent does not store that information either in its short term or long term memory. It is just something which is it's communicating and then just like forgetting about. So all of these are nuanced engineering setups that folks need to make. And that's exactly where","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-107","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":108,"time":"47:06","seconds":2826,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"I go to that. Hey, when you are talking about building an AI agent, as an architect or as a product manager or as a leader who's thinking about building a system, I think you need to go way beyond how a model performs. You cannot just look at a model benchmark and feel that, hey, like this is a good enough model for me to use in my workflow, and then just like tie it together with each other. That's the worst thing that you can do because none of these models understand. I can break any model with a bunch of","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-108","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":109,"time":"47:39","seconds":2859,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"quirky, twisted prompts. So that's where it's important to understand that, hey, how do you architect it as a software? It is not a model that you are surfacing to your user. It is a software. It is a system that you're surfacing to your user, which requires it to have that nuanced approach at every single point of communication between the models, between the model and any tools that it is trying to access,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-109","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":110,"time":"48:05","seconds":2885,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"between the model and the dataset that it is trying to access, etcetera. You have such a unique position","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-110","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":111,"time":"48:10","seconds":2890,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"from how central your content creation is and how central you are to much of the AI movement today. I know you talk to many leaders and builders on a daily basis who share their insights with you and are seeking to share with you, here are the the new things we're looking at. And then, of course, you're doing so much important work with fireworks as well. Based off of all that context that you're you're gathering for, I guess, your personal mental model,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-111","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":112,"time":"48:39","seconds":2919,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"what are you seeing that you think AI builders are either not paying enough attention to right now or on the horizon? How do you","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-112","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":113,"time":"48:49","seconds":2929,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"take any particular model that's running in production in development, any system that's running in development, to take to production level? And when that happens, it's very different when you're working with traditional machine learning models. And this is the same exact challenge that we had when we used to work with something as simple as a logistic regression model or deterministic","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-113","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":114,"time":"49:14","seconds":2954,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"systems to traditional machine learning models. And the same level of shift is what we are seeing from traditional machine learning models to generative AI kind of models. And it's the level of complexity of how the model performs. So there is, while the cloud computing fundamentals, while the system design fundamentals stay the same, it is still not the same because of how the model performs. It is because of how","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-114","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":115,"time":"49:42","seconds":2982,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"input goes into the model and how the output changes every single time that you're just running inference. So one of those beautiful blogs that I saw recently was from Thinking Machines Lab, and they talk about this, which is nondeterministic nature of large language models. For a large part, people's misconception was that LLM is nondeterministic, or it shares answers differently","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-115","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":116,"time":"50:13","seconds":3013,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"when you're asking different kinds of questions. Sure, it does. If I just say like summarize my own query into something which is two lines shorter, it's going to respond in a different manner. But even with the same queries, at times you see the LLM inference engine responding in different manner. And that was coming based on how the plumbing looked like around the large language models rather than just the nature of the model itself.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-116","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":117,"time":"50:44","seconds":3044,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"So these are some of the things that are still being uncovered about the performance of the model, about how the behavior changes in different scenarios. And it is still something which people are discovering and sharing, and it's still something that not a lot of practitioners understand. So I think it's always a challenge to architect these systems based on how we are changing the brains of these systems","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-117","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":118,"time":"51:14","seconds":3074,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"from something which is more deterministic to traditional ML to large language models. So like now that we have a different kind of brain, it has a different kind of thinking capability. So the architecture also needs to change. Architecture also needs to evolve. Part of it would be objective evaluation. Part of it would be subjective evaluation. And the way that we define all of these things is one of the one of the biggest","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-118","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":119,"time":"51:39","seconds":3099,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"areas","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-119","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":120,"time":"51:40","seconds":3100,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"that still people are continuing to continuing to work on. Ash, thank you so much for joining me today and sharing your thoughts on the importance of evals, open source, and so much more. It's been such a distinct pleasure having on the show, and I I really appreciate you taking the time. Where can our listeners go to follow you and the important work you're doing? Well, LinkedIn is where I'm most active on.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-120","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":121,"time":"52:03","seconds":3123,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"While I did start recently on Instagram as well because I realized there's only so much volume of content that I can post on LinkedIn. And while I have been catering it to more technical audience, more maybe like mid level to senior level professionals, on my LinkedIn to help more students and enthusiasts, beginner level folks, I've started sharing like Tidbit","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-121","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":122,"time":"52:26","seconds":3146,"speaker":"Aishwarya Srinivasan","text":"and like bite sized videos on Instagram","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-122","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":123,"time":"52:28","seconds":3148,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"just to get people started in the field. That's awesome. I'm gonna have to go follow your Instagram. I'm excited to check out some of those videos. And we'll be sure to link Ash's Instagram and LinkedIn in the show notes. Ash, it's been such a pleasure having you on. And a reminder to everyone who's listening, while you're going to follow Ash on LinkedIn or Instagram, your platform of choice,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-123","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan","episode":42,"guid":"fd476ae3-ec42-4b28-904a-2f1871ec233c","episodeTitle":"Architecting AI Agents: The Shift from Models to Systems | Aishwarya Srinivasan","publishedAt":"2025-10-08","segmentIndex":124,"time":"52:51","seconds":3171,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"please don't forget to subscribe to our new chain of thought newsletter on LinkedIn for more insights on building with AI. And, hey, you know what? If if you haven't already, if you're watching us on YouTube, you know, like and subscribe there, or Apple Podcasts, Spotify, however it is, we always appreciate that as well. So thank you so much for joining us, Ash, and, thank you for all the insights. Thank you. Thanks, Conor. Listeners, that's all for us this week. Have a good one.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/42-architecting-ai-agents-the-shift-from-models-to-systems-aishwarya-srinivasan/#t-124","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Hey, everyone. Chain of Thought host, Conor Bronsdon here. We are switching things up a bit this week and showcasing an incredible episode from another podcast that we think you'll love, Humans of AI podcast, which is produced by our friends over at Writer. As some of you may know, we're big fans of the work they're doing. We actually had their CEO and co founder, May Habib, on our inaugural episode of Chain of Thought last year, and we definitely encourage you to dive into our back catalog to check out that episode as well. The episode we're sharing today is a fascinating conversation with one of Writer's AI research scientists, Melisa Russak. Her story is a powerful reminder that sometimes the biggest breakthroughs come from the perfect combination of curiosity","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:41","seconds":41,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and naivete because as Melisa discovered, sometimes the best way to innovate is to have no idea what you're doing. It's a thought provoking lesson, if you enjoy it, we highly recommend adding Humans of AI to your podcast feed. We'll be back next week with our regularly scheduled programming as we're joined by Ashwarya Srinivasan. But for now, I'll let the team over at Humans of AI take it away.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":2,"time":"1:10","seconds":70,"speaker":"Melisa Russak","text":"Of course, at this point, have no notion of AI, right? You never came across machine learning, this phrase. You see text, right? Text is simple. I mean, like, relatively simple, but you also see pictures, right? So this is kind of what we were trying to achieve.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:35","seconds":95,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"That's Melisa Russak and what she's describing, trying to figure out how to make computers understand pictures and words,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":4,"time":"1:43","seconds":103,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"well, that's machine learning. Except she didn't know that yet. She was just a math teacher in China tinkering with a problem that fascinated her, completely unaware that she was reinventing algorithms that had been studied for decades. Which raises a question that's been nagging at me since I first heard Melisa's story. How many times do we independently arrive at the same ideas?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":5,"time":"2:11","seconds":131,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"How often do we think we're being original when we're actually walking a path that's already been carved? I'm Elora Weaver. Welcome to Humans of AI. Today, we're telling the story of a woman who accidentally became a machine learning pioneer twice and what that tells us about the nature of discovery itself. Our story begins not in Silicon Valley or MIT, but in Chengdu,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":6,"time":"2:42","seconds":162,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"the bustling heart of Sichuan province, where ancient temples cast shadows on glass towers, towers, and where a young woman named Melisa was studying mathematics, the very language that powers artificial intelligence. But here's the thing, she was restless.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":7,"time":"2:59","seconds":179,"speaker":"Melisa Russak","text":"Mathematics is purely abstract. So So when I studied mathematics, I was discovering that a part of me is not developing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":8,"time":"3:08","seconds":188,"speaker":"Melisa Russak","text":"Like in mathematics, I have a feeling like there is this thing like you can spend ten hours on thinking about a math problem and have no results. You can go to Chinese and you can spend those ten hours learning Chinese sounds, right? So you're to see the progress.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":9,"time":"3:21","seconds":201,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"What she was describing was the mathematician's dilemma, working in a realm of pure abstraction","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":10,"time":"3:28","seconds":208,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"where breakthroughs can take years, where you might spend decades on a problem that leads nowhere. She craved something more tangible, more immediate. She wanted to see her learning compound visibly day by day. So, she made what might seem like an irrational choice. She decided to study Chinese alongside math, not because it made practical sense, but because it felt like the missing piece.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":11,"time":"3:58","seconds":238,"speaker":"Melisa Russak","text":"So I just chose something maximally different from mathematics and that was Chinese. I need to admit that Chinese because it's challenging, right? It's a completely different system, like everything you know from phonetic system. So you don't have an alphabet, right? Completely out of your comfort zone.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":12,"time":"4:12","seconds":252,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"What Melisa didn't realize then was that she was training herself in something that would become essential to her future work,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":13,"time":"4:21","seconds":261,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"pattern recognition across completely different systems. The human brain that can switch between abstract mathematical proofs and tonal Chinese characters, that's exactly the kind of brain that can see patterns in data that others might miss. After graduation, she became a high school math teacher, And it was there watching her students struggle with handwritten Chinese characters that something clicked.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":14,"time":"4:47","seconds":287,"speaker":"Melisa Russak","text":"I had a hobby, like this is the time when I discovered programming.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":15,"time":"4:52","seconds":292,"speaker":"Melisa Russak","text":"So I started from ActionScript and Flash because that was how can I facilitate my students to learn faster, to learn better, to memorize better?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":16,"time":"4:59","seconds":299,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"She wanted to build something that could recognize these handwritten characters automatically. A classification system, she called it. Here's the thing that gives me chills about this story. Melisa was essentially trying to solve the same problem that researchers at universities","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":17,"time":"5:16","seconds":316,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"around the world were tackling with sophisticated machine learning algorithms. Except she had no idea that's what she was doing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":18,"time":"5:25","seconds":325,"speaker":"Melisa Russak","text":"Of course, at this point you have no no show in the eye, right? You never came across machine learning, this phrase?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":19,"time":"5:32","seconds":332,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"She was like someone trying to reinvent the wheel, not knowing that wheels exist. Except in her case, she actually succeeded.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":20,"time":"5:42","seconds":342,"speaker":"Melisa Russak","text":"So this is when it all started. I think that was my first data science project, my first data science job that really pushed me into discovery.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":21,"time":"5:52","seconds":352,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"Only later did she discover that what she had built was essentially K means clustering, a fundamental machine learning algorithm that had been around for decades.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":22,"time":"6:02","seconds":362,"speaker":"Melisa Russak","text":"Of course, you come up with the algorithm that is not perfect, then you discover that actually people are working already more than one hundred years on this problem and there are improvements to this. So it's like, you upgrade.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":23,"time":"6:12","seconds":372,"speaker":"Melisa Russak","text":"So that was amazing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":24,"time":"6:13","seconds":373,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"She didn't just stumble onto one established algorithm. She did it again. Melisa's second accidental invention happened when she started wondering about memory and self knowledge. She wanted to build software that could track her internet activity and tell her something about herself that she didn't already know.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":25,"time":"6:44","seconds":404,"speaker":"Melisa Russak","text":"Maybe you had this problem like when you wake up in the morning and you have this empty blank page, right? Like you're asking questions like wanted to do today, right? Even before the first coughing, what I wanted to achieve today, who am I?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":26,"time":"6:58","seconds":418,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"To solve this, she needed to figure out how to represent both text and images in a way that a computer could understand and compare. She needed to group similar content together to find patterns.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":27,"time":"7:08","seconds":428,"speaker":"Melisa Russak","text":"And of course, if you try to do that, you naturally come into machine learning. This is exactly machine learning. Because you see text, right? Text is simple. I mean, like relatively simple, but you also see pictures, right? So how do you represent pictures?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":28,"time":"7:24","seconds":444,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"What she was describing, learning good representations of data, is what we now call embeddings. And then clustering that data to find patterns, well, that's the foundation of modern AI systems. That's what powers everything from recommendation algorithms to large language models.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":29,"time":"7:43","seconds":463,"speaker":"Melisa Russak","text":"Right now, of course, like after those years in machine learning, would say like, it's all about embeddings, right? You just need to learn good embeddings.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":30,"time":"7:51","seconds":471,"speaker":"Melisa Russak","text":"So you need to have a good encoder model.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":31,"time":"7:51","seconds":471,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"But back then, she was just a person with curious question about self knowledge, working with a team of linguists, trying to build something that had never been built before.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":32,"time":"8:00","seconds":480,"speaker":"Melisa Russak","text":"We actually spent a lot of time trying to design those features ourselves, those embeddings, and trying to come up with the first system.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":33,"time":"8:08","seconds":488,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"She was reinventing","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":34,"time":"8:12","seconds":492,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"neural networks, embeddings, clustering algorithms, the entire foundation of modern AI, because she needed them to answer a simple question. Who am I? There's something happening in Melisa's story that goes beyond just the coincidence of rediscovering algorithms. She stumbled onto something fundamental about how discovery works.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":35,"time":"8:45","seconds":525,"speaker":"Melisa Russak","text":"Actually, this is a piece of advice that I give.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":36,"time":"8:49","seconds":529,"speaker":"Melisa Russak","text":"Like, if you have a topic, before you start working on a topic, think about how you would frame it yourself. Because once you start reading papers, you will converge to what they actually how they framed this problem. And it's very difficult to escape from that box once you are in the box.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":37,"time":"9:03","seconds":543,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"This is the paradox of knowledge: The more we know about how others have solved a problem,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":38,"time":"9:11","seconds":551,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"the harder it becomes to see new solutions. Melisa's accidental discoveries happened precisely because she didn't know the right way to think about these problems. But there's something even deeper here. Melisa's current project, the one she's working on now, takes this question of accidental discovery into even more philosophical territory.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":39,"time":"9:35","seconds":575,"speaker":"Melisa Russak","text":"I do have an even wider idea.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":40,"time":"9:39","seconds":579,"speaker":"Melisa Russak","text":"So imagine that you collect all artifacts that you see, all of pictures, like even sound, everything that you can collect, even conversation with other human beings. So this is your input, right, as a human being. And then try to train an LLM on this input and try to ask the LLM, what's my next action?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":41,"time":"9:57","seconds":597,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"She wants to train an AI on everything she experiences, every conversation,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":42,"time":"10:03","seconds":603,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"every image, every piece of text, and then see if it can predict what she'll do next.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":43,"time":"10:09","seconds":609,"speaker":"Melisa Russak","text":"I would love to train an alarm on the entire input. And then I would love to check to what extent I'm random, to what extent it can predict what I want to do next.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":44,"time":"10:19","seconds":619,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"Like checking, do I have free will? Think about what she's proposing here. If an AI trained on all of your experiences can predict your next action,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":45,"time":"10:30","seconds":630,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"what does that say about free will? Are we just very sophisticated algorithms ourselves following patterns we're not even aware of?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":46,"time":"10:39","seconds":639,"speaker":"Melisa Russak","text":"Usually how it's framed is you have free will if your next action is not fully determined by your history, like the entire input that you get.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":47,"time":"10:48","seconds":648,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"It's the ultimate version of her original question, who am I? Taken to its logical extreme","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":48,"time":"10:56","seconds":656,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"and it connects directly back to her accidental discoveries. If our thoughts and innovations are just the inevitable result of our inputs and experiences, then maybe Melisa's accidental algorithms weren't accidents at all. Maybe they were the only possible outcome of her particular combination of mathematical training, linguistic curiosity, and teaching experience.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":49,"time":"11:30","seconds":690,"speaker":"Writer ad","text":"Building enterprise grade AI shouldn't be complicated. It should just work the right way. At writer.com, we don't do everything. We do one thing. We build enterprise AI that unites business and IT. Business teams? Build your own AI agents. No code required. IT teams? Manage just one platform, not a plethora of point solutions. Writer.com creates AI tools that are safe, scalable,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":50,"time":"11:57","seconds":717,"speaker":"Writer ad","text":"and smarter every time you use them. That's why Accenture, Qualcomm, Vanguard, and hundreds more aren't just doing enterprise AI the right way. They're doing it the Writer way. Book your demo at writer.com/demo.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":51,"time":"12:20","seconds":740,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"At writer, where Melisa now works as a research scientist, she's discovered something remarkable. The same conditions that led to her accidental breakthroughs in China are happening again,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":52,"time":"12:33","seconds":753,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"but this time it's by design.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":53,"time":"12:35","seconds":755,"speaker":"Melisa Russak","text":"Excellent thing about this place is constraints. At the very beginning, in Writer, what we emphasize, we don't use customer data. So how do I develop a system without data? And at first you can be angry, right? I can't create a solution. And then you think about this, Oh, this is an excellent constraint. Right?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":54,"time":"12:55","seconds":775,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"Most AI companies today are built on hoarding vast amounts of user data.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":55,"time":"13:01","seconds":781,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"Writer took the opposite approach. No customer data, period. To most people in the industry, this would seem like trying to build a car without wheels. But for someone like Melisa, who had already reinvented algorithms from scratch twice, this wasn't a limitation. It was an invitation to innovate.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":56,"time":"13:22","seconds":802,"speaker":"Melisa Russak","text":"So actually the first model that we created was to generate the data.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":57,"time":"13:27","seconds":807,"speaker":"Melisa Russak","text":"So we trained a model to generate the data. And I think that was an amazing idea because I would never come up with this if not given those constraints.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":58,"time":"13:34","seconds":814,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"She's describing something that would become a cornerstone of modern AI development, synthetic data generation. But this was years before it became mainstream, before everyone was talking about it. Once again, necessity had led her to reinvent the cutting edge.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":59,"time":"13:52","seconds":832,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"And there's something else happening at Writer that's different from the rest of the industry.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":60,"time":"13:56","seconds":836,"speaker":"Melisa Russak","text":"What's interesting about Writer is nobody told me how to do that. They told me you will find a way. Just take your time. Look around, you will find a way.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":61,"time":"14:07","seconds":847,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"This isn't how most tech companies operate. Usually there are roadmaps, established methodologies, best practices copied from other companies.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":62,"time":"14:17","seconds":857,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"But Writer was betting on something else, that the same curiosity driven approach that led to Melisa's accidental discoveries could be channeled into systematic innovation.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":63,"time":"14:27","seconds":867,"speaker":"Melisa Russak","text":"When I joined, we had two people or three people in NLP team. Right now we have several teams doing NLP. And I remember my first task was training a model for grammar. It was not obvious what an LM can actually do the job well.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":64,"time":"14:40","seconds":880,"speaker":"Melisa Russak","text":"I consider T5 a large model. Just to give you the scale right now, that model was less than 1,000,000,000 parameters.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":65,"time":"14:48","seconds":888,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"What she is describing is the difference between research and engineering. Most companies in 2020 were focused on implementing existing solutions at scale. Writer was asking deeper questions. What if we could build enterprise AI systems that actually understand how businesses communicate?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":66,"time":"15:09","seconds":909,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"What if we could make AI that doesn't just follow patterns, but understands context and intent?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":67,"time":"15:15","seconds":915,"speaker":"Melisa Russak","text":"Everyone in the industry is relying on benchmarks. That's true. But the benchmark is like a cherry picked use case. There is one piece that is missing in all of that testing. And it's very time consuming because it's going to a human being, asking the human being, could you please use that model in production? Do you like actually talking to the model?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":68,"time":"15:35","seconds":935,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"She's talking about something they call the vibes test.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":69,"time":"15:40","seconds":940,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"And it reveals something profound about how Writer approaches AI development.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":70,"time":"15:44","seconds":944,"speaker":"Melisa Russak","text":"So we always say that the VIBES test is the most important. After you satisfy all of those benchmarks, you go and do the VIBES check.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":71,"time":"15:52","seconds":952,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"While other companies chase benchmark scores, Writer is asking, does this AI actually work for real people doing real work? It's the difference between optimizing for test scores and optimizing for human experience.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":72,"time":"16:09","seconds":969,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"This approach has led to breakthroughs that go far beyond what typical enterprise AI can do. They're not just building chatbots or document generators. They're building AI that understands the nuances of how different industries communicate, that can adapt to company specific writing styles, that can actually improve how people think and work with language.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":73,"time":"16:31","seconds":991,"speaker":"Melisa Russak","text":"Sky is the limit, right? Even with the current technology, we can go very, very far.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-73","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":74,"time":"16:36","seconds":996,"speaker":"Melisa Russak","text":"So it's only about imagination.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-74","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":75,"time":"16:38","seconds":998,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"This isn't just one person's success story. Writer has created an environment where this kind of innovative thinking can flourish, where constraints become catalysts, where the impossible becomes just another interesting problem to solve. There's a larger pattern here that goes beyond Melisa's individual story. Throughout history, some of our greatest discoveries have come not from experts following established paths,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-75","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":76,"time":"17:12","seconds":1032,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"but from outsiders approaching problems with fresh eyes. From Kepler discovering planetary motion while trying to find the music of the spheres to Darwin developing evolution while studying to be a clergyman. But what Writer has figured out is how to systematically create the conditions for this kind of breakthrough thinking.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-76","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":77,"time":"17:31","seconds":1051,"speaker":"Melisa Russak","text":"The thing about quantization and distillation,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-77","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":78,"time":"17:34","seconds":1054,"speaker":"Melisa Russak","text":"every model is different, right? That's why we do this extensive testing because we want to know the characteristic of the model, how to design a system on top of the model.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-78","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":79,"time":"17:44","seconds":1064,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"What she's describing is deep fundamental research into how AI systems actually behave, Not just how they perform on tests, but how they think, how they fail, how they can be improved. This is the kind of work that pushes the entire field forward","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-79","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":80,"time":"18:01","seconds":1081,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"and is paying off. While other companies are racing to implement the latest trending model, Rytr is building AI systems that work reliably in the messy reality of enterprise environments.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-80","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":81,"time":"18:13","seconds":1093,"speaker":"Melisa Russak","text":"So if you have a startup, right, and you rely on API, and then suddenly the API provider changes the model, your entire business is in pieces, right? Because everything that you created so far on top of it, it stops existing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-81","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":82,"time":"18:27","seconds":1107,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"Writers approach understanding their models deeply, controlling their own infrastructure,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-82","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":83,"time":"18:33","seconds":1113,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"optimizing for real world performance rather than benchmark scores. This isn't just good engineering. It's the foundation for the next generation of enterprise AI. But here's the twist. Now that Melisa knows about machine learning, now that she's working with a team of world class researchers, can she still have those accidental discoveries or has knowledge become a constraint?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-83","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":84,"time":"19:00","seconds":1140,"speaker":"Melisa Russak","text":"Those tokens that happened before are very important for the current token. If you change anything in past tokens, you would diverge from the trajectory that you're in right now. So there is a possibility that you would not end up getting the token that you have right now. So I've been thinking about my token right now and I'm really happy where I am.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-84","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":85,"time":"19:16","seconds":1156,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"She's using the language of AI, tokens and trajectories to describe her own life.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-85","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":86,"time":"19:22","seconds":1162,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"And maybe that's the point. At Writer, she's not just applying her curiosity to solve individual problems, she's part of a team that's rethinking what enterprise AI can be. The accidental algorithms of her past have become intentional innovations. And for other researchers and engineers who are tired of chasing the latest hype cycle, who want to work on problems that actually matter,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-86","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":87,"time":"19:48","seconds":1188,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"who believe that the most interesting breakthroughs happen at the intersection of constraints and creativity. Well, Writer has proven that there's another way to build the future. Melisa Russak is a research scientist at Writer where her team has grown from two people to multiple specialized groups, all working on the kinds of fundamental problems that push the entire field forward.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-87","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":88,"time":"20:19","seconds":1219,"speaker":"Humans of AI narrator","text":"The next time you find yourself approaching a problem without knowing the right way to solve it, remember Melisa's story. Sometimes not knowing is exactly what you need to see something new. And sometimes, if you're lucky, you might find yourself in a place that rewards that kind of thinking. Thanks so much to Melisa Russak for sharing her story. I'm Elora Weaver, and this has been Humans of AI.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-88","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak","episode":41,"guid":"dc73c87a-0e09-4695-8318-911ff8c8edcf","episodeTitle":"The Accidental Algorithm | Humans of AI Crossover with Writer's Melisa Russak","publishedAt":"2025-10-01","segmentIndex":89,"time":"20:52","seconds":1252,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Thank you to everyone for tuning in this week, and a huge thank you to the Humans of AI team over at Writer. If you enjoyed this conversation with Melisa, make sure you go check out Humans of AI wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget to check out our own back catalog for our interview with Writer CEO, May Habib. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next week.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/41-the-accidental-algorithm-humans-of-ai-crossover-with-writers-melisa-russak/#t-89","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"Hey, maybe your company used to merge 20 changes a day, now it's merging 50 changes a day. Even with bots and all this stuff going on, maybe even a 100, and now you have merge conflicts and merge SKUs. These changes what's funny is before I had reasonably good confidence in them. I thought, Conor, I trust you. You're a great engineer. You wrote this code change. Now it's like, okay, Conor, I'm not sure you wrote this.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:23","seconds":23,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Welcome back to Chain of Thought, everyone. I am your host, Conor Bronsdon, and we've all had this thought. AI coding tools are maybe the fastest moving category in tech, but as we flood our systems with AI generated code, what do we do about code reviews? These can be a bit of a critical bottleneck, especially as we're seeing folks like the CEO of Coinbase","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":2,"time":"0:48","seconds":48,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"saying that 40 of their code is now AI generated. My guest today is tackling this problem head on. Greg Foster is the founder of Graphite. You may have seen them over at graphite.dev. You may be using them. And after seeing the power of Airbnb's internal tooling, Greg set out to build a solution for everyone else, accelerating development for teams like Cursor,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:11","seconds":71,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Replit, and Snowflake. Greg, it's great to see you. Thanks for joining us on the show. Yeah. Thanks for having me, Conor. I loved I love this topic. I love talking about dev tools, and I love geeking out on how it's all evolving with AI right now. I saw that Coinbase tweet this morning. I was I was enjoying that one. Yeah. It's, it's really interesting to see the responses on that. And I guess folks who are listening to this later now can place when we recorded this in time. So we're, we're giving the game away here. But before we get started, I do have one quick note I need to share with our listeners.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":4,"time":"1:41","seconds":101,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"We have just launched our Chain of Thought newsletter on LinkedIn, and we would love to have you join us every week as we bring you the conversations from Chain of Thought, research to help you ship reliable AI, and everything that is crucially happening around observability, evaluations, and key infrastructure for AI. We're going to have a lot more conversations with dev tools leaders like Greg,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":5,"time":"2:05","seconds":125,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and you can find it by searching for the Chain of Thought newsletter LinkedIn to subscribe or check out the Galileo AI LinkedIn page. You can find us pretty easily or find me and then, you know, easy to find us from there. But let's get into the conversation here. Greg, you and I have both been, I mean, involved in the DevTools space for years at this point. Some listeners of the show may know me from when I was at Linear B and hosting the DevRemapids show for years, or we talked with a ton of engineering leaders.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":6,"time":"2:34","seconds":154,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And most of the conversations happening in AI today are about generating code faster, solving, you know, this challenge of like writing something better. But, know, as Galileo was obviously focused on like observability and evaluation of that, whether it's an AI agent, whether that's writing, whether that's code generation is crucial. And for particular workflows,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":7,"time":"3:01","seconds":181,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"say code, which I think we all agree is one of the obvious opportunities to solve given the massive open source databases and internal proprietary databases that can be applied to the problem. If you want a deeper conversation on why code is one of the top areas for LLMs to, to solve for knowledge work. We have our whole episode of The Poolside Founders. That was from earlier this year. Go check that out. Great deep dive.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":8,"time":"3:22","seconds":202,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"But Greg's really focused on what happens next after the generation. And I think all, all of us who've done dev work know, reviews can be hit or miss. It can really depend on who's reviewing the code, how motivated they are to actually review your code and how much they're paying attention. You may just get an LGTM looks good to me. And with so much new cogeneration happening and frankly with LLMs not always being the best at,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":9,"time":"3:53","seconds":233,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"being brief with their, their cogeneration, reviews are clearly a critical and often overlooked part of the puzzle. So I'm really interested to hear your perspective on this, Greg, and I think we're both excited to see the AI engineering landscape evolve from that vantage point. So let's set the stage for our listeners. Greg, how is the nature of AI engineering fundamentally","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":10,"time":"4:17","seconds":257,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"changing the software development life cycle?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":11,"time":"4:20","seconds":260,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"How is the nature of AI changing the software development life cycle? So it's definitely everywhere. You can't, you can't go on Twitter. You can't go on LinkedIn. You look at tech, any, any source of media or information or hype y articles right now is constantly talking about AI changing engineering. I mean, Hacker News, it's flooded with this. There's constantly a debate of like, do junior engineers still have a job? Should people even study CS anymore or is it overblown? And you can see the flame wars happening in the comments, but if you can like control F for AI on HN, it's just, it just lights up the page. So it's definitely doing something. It's definitely really interesting.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":12,"time":"5:02","seconds":302,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"And it's been pretty fast too. I've been working on DevTools for a while. I used to be an engineer at Airbnb, working on the DevTools team. That was in the late 2010s. I started working on graphite with my amazing co founders around 2020. AI was not really mentioned. I remember at one point I was talking to a GitHub exec and this must've been 2022, 2023. And they were so excited","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":13,"time":"5:26","seconds":326,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"about the advent of some of this AI overhang. And they're like, yeah, you should use it to summarize, commit titles, to fill out commit titles for what y'all are doing. And we sat there, we're like, yeah, I don't know if that's physically possible. Like maybe it is, like, maybe that's just that, that like, you know, just can't be done with current technology.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":14,"time":"5:42","seconds":342,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"And here you are a year or two later and it's like, oh, that's the most trivial thing I could possibly So do with it's really, and it seemingly kind of, kind of come out of nowhere and just taken the field. If I think around personally, like as I've watched, as I think about how it's kind of emerged, it feels like the first major use case was GitHub Copilot. I feel like they really cracked this open.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":15,"time":"6:05","seconds":365,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"And it's, it was a cool synergy because you take, you take Microsoft who owns GitHub. They also own Versus Code. And then they have that major investment in OpenAI. And so they have all the puzzle pieces. They have an IDE, they have that training dataset from, from GitHub and, they have the AI talent and they apply and they build what feels like the first really successful product here, which was like tab complete.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":16,"time":"6:28","seconds":388,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"As I'm typing, I already had tab complete through, their abstract syntax trees and stuff happening in my IDE, but now I could use AI and it could predict a little bit better and it could fill up like the rest of the line or heck even in exciting cases, a couple of lines in front of me. And this got really popular and people were willing to pay for this. And you had a couple companies,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":17,"time":"6:48","seconds":408,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"spin off from this. You had Maven was one of them. People started really getting excited and working in this space. And then, it feels like the next thing that came along, Cursor and the Cursor team looked at that and took, took amazing inspiration. I love, I love the Cursor folks. I knew them. I think they were also getting started around 2020. Such a smart group of folks. We looked at them that, hey, this is promising,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":18,"time":"7:10","seconds":430,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"but man, you could do so much more. In fact, this, you know, don't just be like a plugin into Versus code. What if you own the whole IDE, you had more custom UIs, you were a lot more ambitious with this. They extended tabs to not just fill out your line, but also jump ahead and fill out multiple lines. And you can kind of keep slapping tab and just watch your whole screen get filled out.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":19,"time":"7:27","seconds":447,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"And now we're still in the auto complete land. And I think everyone looked at this and they said, okay, fantastic. What a nice dev tool and minor productivity level up this is. But I don't think anyone was like, okay, we're out of a job. The software engineers. Then, then I think about the second wave. Then we had, we had like kind of another, another level up, and I think this was kind of enabled by more intelligent","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":20,"time":"7:47","seconds":467,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"backend systems as Sonnet 3.5 comes out, Sonnet 3.7, variants of GBT start evolving. You get this sidebar that again, I think HRSA really popularized where you can get a sidebar and I can ask it, Hey, just go do me a thing. Go add a button. Go take this, go to refactor this file. Add a unit test here. And it doesn't have infinite context, but it can go on small missions and it can actually pop out rather than tab quitting. It can just spawn and generate a reasonably good amount of code or a reasonably good amount of edits.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":21,"time":"8:16","seconds":496,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"And now I have this director mode where I can go and I can have a conversation and I can just suggest changes to the code base. I'm still sitting at an IDE. It's not too dissimilar. I'm still working on a code change and heck it's making enough mistakes where I'm also immediately just moving my cursor into, into the window and then like fixing a couple of typos, linter errors, you name it. But really feels like the second wave and that felt distinctly","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":22,"time":"8:38","seconds":518,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"better and stronger and more interesting than just tab complete. Tab complete is still useful, but this felt like a big level up there. And I think people started scratching their heads and really starting to think, okay, man, this is, this is getting special. And as this has extended and the duration of missions that you can send, the, those bots on has, has increased.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":23,"time":"8:55","seconds":535,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"You have the advent of vibe coding gets coined. You have people, you know, the, the, the surface evolves and now you've Claude code doing it in the terminal, but it's still that general ergonomic pattern of you type a English sentence. It does a little work, get back, gets back to you. And maybe you're checking in ten, twenty times on a pull request. Now, the last level of this that I'm kind of interested in","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":24,"time":"9:17","seconds":557,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"seems to be, this is the most emergent right now, but is this, this concept of background agents. I don't know if it has a fully official term yet, but that's, that's one term that's been coined. Where to say, I view, I view it as headless. You know, I say, go Slack, app message something on Slack, go ping something on GitHub, wait a couple hours and then have a pull request come back to you. It's like the full autonomy self driving car. It's not highway autopilot. It's just, it just goes, does the delivery and comes back.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":25,"time":"9:45","seconds":585,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"And it's really interesting. I don't have to be, I don't have to have my hands on the wheel. I don't have to be paying attention. I can, I can do it off my phone while I'm going to lunch? The scope of missions and asks that I can make of that are quite small right now. It's often small code changes. If you ask anything too ambitious, it likely goes off the rails. It also takes a good amount of time. Usually what's happening is a sandbox is being spun up in the background, kind of like CI, some code's being cloned, it's building, it's iterating, it's, it's giving you back a PR,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":26,"time":"10:11","seconds":611,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"but it's, it really to me is showing this like final evolution or so far final evolution of, of what these AI can do in software development, which is kind of headlessly acting like a teammate and spawning a whole poll request, allowing you to interact with it the way you'd interact with a teammate. And with a teammate, I don't, I'm not sitting with them on an IDE, two hands, four hands on the keyboard, NCIS style, trying, trying to collaborate.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":27,"time":"10:35","seconds":635,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"We're talking on Slack and we're talking on GitHub and that's how we're iterating on this poll request. And we're starting to get to that and maybe it can only do 10% of PRs today, but heck, know, give me GPT-five, GPT-six, you know, maybe it can do 20%. Maybe it starts inching up that ladder and where we find ourselves today. We have all three. People use TapComplete.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":28,"time":"10:51","seconds":651,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"People use these IDE or Cloudco style chatbots, and they also use a little bit of headless, headless background agents. And so AI is definitely shaking up the game board and we're doing everything a little bit differently. I see these three major patterns emerging.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":29,"time":"11:04","seconds":664,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Man, there's so much to unpack there. I think you have a lot of great insights and the idea of these three development waves is is really spot on. And we could obviously talk more about things like context engineering and how that's becoming a much larger frame for a lot of these approaches and how people are thinking through the infrastructure piece of it. But I want to drill down something you said early on, which is commit titles. You know, a couple of years ago, we were like, oh, commit title generation. How are we going to figure that out? And now,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":30,"time":"11:36","seconds":696,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I I don't think about commit titles anymore, like, come on. That that is so far down the list of problems that we're trying to solve here. And I think it's a great example of how the infrastructure and AI has moved forward, And yet the public perception, I think is that maybe AI is a little stuck like, Oh, there hasn't been that much improvement. But once you actually dig in the details and you start talking to people who are building with it every day, who who are involved in the DevTool side of it, you see that there is so much infrastructure that's happened. And I think there is this perception of like, AI should be a magic bullet and it should just solve your problem. You know, it's going to kill the werewolf off the bat, no problem.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":31,"time":"12:14","seconds":734,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And instead we're finding that it does take a lot of infrastructure work to, to get it right. And you have to do a lot of context engineering. You have to provide a lot of context. You have to make sure you're, you're setting your agents up for success. But when you do, that's where the magic happens. And I think that's, what's really exciting about the efforts of folks like yourself,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":32,"time":"12:33","seconds":753,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"but also of how we're seeing this transformation because, I mean, you, you talked about this first wave of like, Hey, I'm, I'm in my ID. I'm, I'm basically talking to this AI, you know, it's completing stuff for me. We're kind of going back and forth on debugging. I think that's still a fantastic paradigm for folks who are more junior or bad devs like myself, frankly,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":33,"time":"12:54","seconds":774,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"to go back and forth, to, to learn, to iterate and to really be pair programming with an AI. And then you have this movement up the stack to, Oh, now I can start to, I can be a team lead and I can leverage my expertise and really assign tasks out. And now I have a team of agents working for me. And it's so obvious we're heading in that direction of just like these multi agent systems that function semi autonomously","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":34,"time":"13:19","seconds":799,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and get inputs from humans as architectural leaders and sometimes debuggers, but that doesn't solve all the infrastructure problems, know, even if we're shifting left in some areas, there, there are these blockers that are in the, in the software development life cycle and review has always been one, but there are others that I think are, are maybe emerging.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":35,"time":"13:42","seconds":822,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I wonder if you are seeing particular changes to segments of the software development life cycle where now the SDLC for AI has, has new blockers that are emerged or, or new challenges that you're kind of thinking about, beyond the, the core problem that you're looking to solve.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":36,"time":"14:01","seconds":841,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"Oh, a 100%. I mean, there's so much that goes into software engineering that is not just typing","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":37,"time":"14:09","seconds":849,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"keys on a keyboard and writing code. I mean, that's what, 10 to 20% of the work, right? Exactly. Exactly.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":38,"time":"14:16","seconds":856,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"There's so much that goes into it. That's not just that. You have pre work, You have the alignment that goes on. You have stakeholders, you create a design doc, you loop in product and design, depending on what you're building. You're thinking gracefully about what you're actually going to go create. Then you go and type it out. You test it, you build it, make sure it feels good. That's on your local experience. That's where all this action, a lot of this action is happening","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":39,"time":"14:39","seconds":879,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"on that code generation happening on your local machine oftentimes. Then you would create a pull request. And as we all know, don't you just create a pull request and then you're like, Oh, great. Done. Feature complete. We're solved. Like, call launched. Call launched. I'm going on vacation. No, not at all. Right? I think there's a saying like, code complete is not, you know, the same as feature complete.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":40,"time":"14:58","seconds":898,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"After that, you got to go get a code review. We think a lot about that, but you know, even just breaking out the code review, what's actually happening there. Okay. You're, you're looping in other teammates to get context from them, but also share context back to them. So people have some idea of what's going on in code base, how it's changing, how it's evolving. Maybe they know something you don't know and say, Hey, that's actually not the pattern that we do here. Or you know what? That's actually so reasonable, except we just had a meeting yesterday and we're actually going in a different direction. And let me, let me just let you know that we should take a change here before you go merge that in.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":41,"time":"15:29","seconds":929,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"Maybe there's a security issue and this is a great chance for folks to apply that acumen. Maybe there's code owners or expert subject matter expertise where they can weigh in on certain areas. All of this is going on in the human code review. We're not even talking about bugs. Bugs, of course, we're looking at, looking for bugs in, in code review, but we're also looking for them in CI. And when that PR is put up, we're now trying to pass a bunch of automated tests,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":42,"time":"15:54","seconds":954,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"everything from linters to unit tests, to end tests, make sure this is safe and hopefully not about to crash production. Okay. Let's say we pass CI and we get a code review. Now we push a merge button. If you're a small company, it'll just merge on a trunk. If you're at a large company, it may go into a merge queue. And there's so many people merging at the same time that now we need to sequence these retest CI in case someone broke something in between you getting a review and passing CI. Okay. So we got to queue it up. We got to retest it. Great. That could take another hour. Some complex systems there.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":43,"time":"16:22","seconds":982,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"Then we merge it, but once you merge it, it's still not user facing. It's still not launched. We're going to have to rebuild a new artifact. We're going to have to gracefully roll that out onto production servers, checking all of our metrics and making sure we're not regressing something, spiking errors, causing a problem.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":44,"time":"16:37","seconds":997,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Hits production. Still not done. Still, now it's on production. Users are seeing it. Hopefully if we're a good engineer, we're not at lunch yet. We're still kind of monitoring our systems, maybe checking Datadog or Grafana. But maybe we're working on something else already. Maybe we're already having context switching costs because I've transitioned to my next feature I'm working on. Maybe I haven't found a lunch and I'm like, Oh God, what did I write earlier? Or maybe it's two days later because I didn't get a human review in time and that was a blocker in my system, or I needed a second review for some reason from an SME.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":45,"time":"17:04","seconds":1024,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"There's, there's so many ways this can go wrong. And I think, you know, we can go on and on. I think every part of this is being challenged, rethought, or bottlenecked by AI to connect it back to AI. AI, I think is really just obsessing right now about that cogeneration. Is it touching the design docs? A little bit. We're using deep research to help us with those design docs. For code review, there's AI code reviewers. We work on one. There's a few out in the market.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":46,"time":"17:28","seconds":1048,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"For tests, it's helping generate them. Running them, that's more deterministic execution of compute. So it's not changing the run of them. I do think you could do some fun stuff around ordering those tests and trying to be as efficient as possible, but mostly it's just helping us on the generation side. Merging, it's actually kind of the same problem it was before, but now we have a higher volume of code changes. This is where it kind gets interesting. It breaks down.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":47,"time":"17:49","seconds":1069,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"I'm hearing reports and I think people see this anecdotally, but you also see it in the metrics that companies are just generating a lot higher volume of code changes. I think Facebook was quoted in, you know, over the last year, doubling the internal code changes per engineer that they're seeing, and they expect it to double again really soon. We see it in our metrics because we're, graphite is used by so many of these companies. And of course we sync and we manage all the code changes. So we see the volume of code changes and it is strictly up into the right for engineers.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":48,"time":"18:13","seconds":1093,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"It's putting strain on these systems. You as an IC, you got to review more stuff. Your human time is still your human time. The merge system, Hey, maybe your company used to merge 20 changes a day and now it's merging 50 changes a day. Or maybe even with bots and all this stuff going on, maybe even a 100, and now you have merge conflicts and merge skews. These changes was funny is before","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":49,"time":"18:34","seconds":1114,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"I had reasonably good, confidence in them. Thought, Conor, I trust you. You're a great engineer. You wrote this code change. I'm double checking it, but heck, you know, like we're, we're already in a reasonably good place that you wrote this thing. Now it's like, okay, Conor, I'm not sure you wrote this. I, you might've written it. You might've just like held tab down while like staring at your iPhone. I would never do that. Okay.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":50,"time":"18:54","seconds":1134,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Excuse me, Greg, you're casting aspersions on my honor here. Exactly. You would, you would never.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":51,"time":"19:00","seconds":1140,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"Or heck maybe, maybe like no human has ever read this code before. There's like a bot that just generated it. And now I'm the first person ever reading it. So this code review, there's more of these code changes, but it's also higher stakes. I trust it a little bit less. Maybe it didn't get, maybe the original human who wrote it didn't pay as much attention.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":52,"time":"19:17","seconds":1157,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"There's also a risk of, you know, machines are gullible and we, you know, we, we hear more and more about security incidents happening with these code changes. That code review really starts mattering. Because I can't even just trust the team that had good intentions who was creating it. The context also matters too, because we take for granted that when we write code changes ourselves, we're absorbing the context of how the code base is and is evolving. And then Code Review is sharing that out a little bit. But if we're not writing those code changes with a really active mind, we have less and less context. So we better be absorbing that in code review. Cause if we're not absorbing in code review and we didn't absorb it when we wrote it, the entire engineering team might not know what's actually happening in the code base. That becomes a really dangerous problem over time.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":53,"time":"19:55","seconds":1195,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"There's more weight on this code review system. There's more weight on the merging system, deployment system. That whole outer loop of software development is getting challenged and bottlenecked. I think you've, there's been tweets and so on from the Anthropic team and others about how it's not the code gen, the code creation, the code writing side that's the issue anymore. Now it's the DevOps, the management, the good engineering practices around shipping and releasing to production. That's kind of the new bottleneck. And we can solve it. I'm, you know, I'm optimistic we're engineers, we can solve it, but that's, that's a major issue of challenge now. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":54,"time":"20:24","seconds":1224,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I think it's really interesting to look at where effort is going now because initially there was so much being poured into the CodeGen challenge. And not to say, obviously there are massive billion dollar plus companies that have built on this. I mean, Cursor, which I know you work with, has, is like the obvious success story, but there frankly so many Versus Code for us that are being successful here. You look at Winsorf and others.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":55,"time":"20:46","seconds":1246,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And now I think we're all realizing, Oh, that only gets you so far. Like this, this does, as I think anyone who's spent time thinking about the leadership side of software engineering for a long time realize, Oh, this, this the coding's only part of it. This is only a small portion of the, the work that has to happen. This inner loop versus outer loop that you mentioned.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":56,"time":"21:09","seconds":1269,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I think something else you said is really poignant and, and that's the idea of what level of context is being applied to a PR. Now, we may have an expectation of a human coworker, but we may not know the context being applied by our agent coworker now. And, and really that's what they're becoming is these like, I've been calling them junior async digital employees where it's like, you know, they're not, they're typically not senior level yet. They, they lack the context and the architectural thinking.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":57,"time":"21:41","seconds":1301,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"But God, you can unleash a hoard of junior employees at a problem. And if you give them enough context and you enable them and you manage them, they could do fantastic work. But it feels like there's still a big gap in how different companies are providing context to their AI agents to actually get them to be successful within the code base. What best practices are you seeing around actually enabling these agents and this third distinct wave of this software engineering revolution?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":58,"time":"22:16","seconds":1336,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"It's a good question. How are people getting the context into the agents so they do a good job? I think it starts with the person at the helm being a very good software engineer. You still got to hug the agent on both sides. You got to hug it on the input and you got to hug it on the output. You still got to be, it's agent in the middle, human on the in and the out.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":59,"time":"22:39","seconds":1359,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"And we need the software engineers to be really good. The people, you know, the people I think are the strongest and most effective with working with AI agents are the, are the senior people, the staff people, the really experienced Yes. Junior engineers are finding great success and I love it when I'm learning something new. I love using AI agents, but man,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":60,"time":"22:56","seconds":1376,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"the really strong engineers, the folks who've been doing it forever, they are lethal when mixed with, with, with these AI technologies. Why is that? So I think on the input side, they're, they're applying, they're, as you say, you know, the context, they're, they're maybe collaborating on a design doc with Claude code. They're creating a markdown file to start off with. They know what a good design doc is. They know what kind of questions to ask, and they're actually filling that out. They're maybe even having like","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":61,"time":"23:20","seconds":1400,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"iterative debates with the AI to create really good design doc style guides before they even actually execute the code change. Maybe they're running deep research queries. They're scanning docs. They're double checking the APIs that they're depending on. They're thinking about all of the classic software engineering principles that have always mattered. Clean code, clean architecture, dependency inversion, good abstractions, narrow interfaces. All this stuff matters. If it mattered to the, it mattered to the human, kind of still matters to the AI. And they're putting that down in the pre work. And you ask how they get the context of the machines. Again, it's simple, but a good pattern I've seen is people just are creating really thoughtful markdown file design docs and actually go into ClockCode or Cursor and saying, Hey, read this thing. Now let's, let's start working on that code change. Another thing that still matters a lot, and we obsess over this, is making sure the code changes are small and modular.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":62,"time":"24:07","seconds":1447,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"Just as, just as a design docs, you know, it helps humans and it helps the AI as well. You don't want Claude Code or Cursor or any of these tools to go and create 2,000 lines, 3,000 line PRs. They can do it pretty fast, but you don't want them to create that, put up for a poll request and hope to God it passes review in CI. There's a lot of famous studies. I think Google had one where actually the longer the code changes, and we've seen this in our data too, the longer the code changes, the fewer number of comments per line it gets.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":63,"time":"24:35","seconds":1475,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"People, just the human reviewers, their eyes flaze over it. You're way more likely to give it to LGA. You put up a 10 line PR, you're going get like five comments on it. You put them up to Yeah, line yeah, People are like, I don't know. What do you, what do you want me do with this? Same thing, if there's, if your CI fails or there's a bug, you're like, okay, let's, let's now, like, let's look through this 2,000 line code change and like, see if we can find the issue.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":64,"time":"24:55","seconds":1495,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"Much rather small modular code changes incrementally built, rolled out. If one fails, you know exactly where the issue was. And I think that this helps AIs a lot too. So this pattern I'm describing is a small diffs, stack diffs. Stacking is a great, is a great technique to, like Facebook invented, to allow you to create a small code change and then create a small code change on top of that, a small code change on top of that. The origins of this concept trace all the way back to old school git where people used to actually work on commit by commit. Nowadays, I know we all work on pull requests.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":65,"time":"25:26","seconds":1526,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"No matter how you want to describe or call it this many interdependent small code changes one at a time, it works very nicely. And you know who likes it most? AI really likes it. It's actually, when you actually start getting these coding agents to stack their code changes and create many small ones, they start applying chain of thought to those stacks. It's really funny. You can see them breaking out. They're like, okay, okay, great. I'm going to, you know, we'll create the function first, then we'll create the unit test next, then we'll create the endpoint on top of that. And they're starting to modularize it, test each one of them and roll that out. And the AI even builds it better than if you ask it to kind of one shot it in one large code change.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":66,"time":"25:57","seconds":1557,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"Then again, I said human on the ins, human on the out, the human reviewer can look at that stack of changes. They can look at many small code changes and they can apply a better human review. Heck, maybe they can review the first one while the AI is working on the second one. You can tag in different subject matter experts from different areas. That CI is being run on a more granular level. So it works really well together. And then, you better be a good engineer on the review side because that still matters. And you still got a lot of work after creating that code change.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":67,"time":"26:24","seconds":1584,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I'm curious. I'd love to unpack this concept of stacking because I think a lot of us are just really used to using pull requests and that's just the norm or, you know, maybe too used to looking at our green squares and our GitHub profile and going like, Oh yeah, look how many PR they have. Have a lot a lot of commits here. And stacking, while it's been popularized by certain companies, is is less of a an established,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":68,"time":"26:51","seconds":1611,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"approach within the industry. What is I guess, one, where are you seeing the growth? Are you seeing a lot of people adopt this or is this still pretty nascent so far? And, and two, how do you think it can be further leveraged to enhance these agent first or agent centric coding approaches?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":69,"time":"27:11","seconds":1631,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"Yeah. I will say we are seeing it get more and more popular across the industry and across the top tech companies that I really do think set the trends in DevTools. All these companies from Datadog to Vercel, to Notion, to Figma, a lot of it, lot of the engineers are starting to embrace stacking more and more. I love seeing it. This, the concept has been around for a long time. I think the biggest","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":70,"time":"27:33","seconds":1653,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"manifestation of it has been within Facebook and Meta's engineering culture. I think they had the world class tooling around creating stacks of small code changes. And it's interesting because, Meta is also one of the, one of the few companies who doesn't use GitHub. Google is one of the other ones and they also have similar patterns here. Why is that? It's a, it's a fun historical stories, but in part because,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":71,"time":"27:54","seconds":1674,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"you know, GitHub was very nascent at the time that Facebook and Google were coming to scale and new large systems. So they built in house. And when they built in house, they thought about things from first principles. They needed small code changes. They thought you could create stacks of them. It worked really nicely. So these patterns emerged. They're becoming adopted more and more throughout the industry","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":72,"time":"28:14","seconds":1694,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"for a couple of reasons. One, I think the tooling is getting there in order to support them better. We build tooling at Graphite, help stack changes. Also, there's some great open source tools and CLIs that make it easier to manage your stacks of changes. Vanilla Git never did a great job of helping you manage these. And number two, I think again, there's more and more of this emphasis on keeping developers unblocked and moving quickly. It's always mattered. We're just watching that matter more and more, and that's creating more appetite to embrace solutions like stacking.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":73,"time":"28:41","seconds":1721,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"To touch on exactly why this is like not mainstream or why this hasn't always been mainstreamed, it's such a fascinating historical artifact to me. I think the origins of Git was exploring this idea and they, they had two constructs. They had commits and branches. And what is a branch, but a chain of commits, chain of interdependent code changes that stack on top of one another.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-73","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":74,"time":"29:01","seconds":1741,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"And so they, they were kind of on this from the get go. You're coding, you're checkpointing it, you know, you're proceeding along. What differed here was the pattern that engineers collaborate on those code changes. Cause in open source Git land, you would go to a maintainer and say, Hey, I've been working on a branch for a little while, a feature branch, a fork. It's, I've gone on my own journey here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-74","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":75,"time":"29:22","seconds":1762,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"Would you pull in my changes? Stranger online. Do you trust me? Would you like take a, take a review of this and bring in my branch? Pull, I'm requesting you to pull it in. That's where the pedal comes from. And then that, that maintainer, you know, sits for a couple of days. They give it some thought. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. Depends how People won't be able to prove out crucially.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-75","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":76,"time":"29:41","seconds":1781,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"Yeah. And a lot of, a lot of, some people just squish those things. Sometimes they won't depends, you know, there's a lot of, especially when it comes to like Linux and a lot of these open source projects, they've, they're very picky about this stuff. So that was the origin, but they, how are they collaborating? They're collaborating on GitHub and the unit of change was the pull request, but the pull request was a bunch of commits.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-76","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":77,"time":"30:00","seconds":1800,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"It was a single branch, but a bunch of commits. So what ended up accidentally happening is that the unit of change became the branch and not the commit. Get started with the unit of change being the commit, and it kind of became the branch. And then all these companies adopted GitHub as the code change collaboration tooling of the day. Was just the main system lying around. If you didn't want to build it in house and no one did, they would just buy GitHub. So you start slinging PRs back and forth and people care so little about commits. You can't review the commit. You can't run CI on the commit. You review, you review and test the branch. And most all companies these days, when you merge, they just enable squash and merge, just compress that branch down to a single commit on main to keep it really clean.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-77","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":78,"time":"30:36","seconds":1836,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"And some people use, some people just rebase a bunch. They, some people stack on commits, but overall we've, we've really just centralized on that branch workflow. That's why I think that there's been an under adoption of stacking is that the Vanilla Git and Vanilla GitHub made this kind of hard to adopt in support. If you've ever tried to chain- I'm not used to it either.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-78","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":79,"time":"30:55","seconds":1855,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"Yeah. They're not used to it. Yeah. Yeah. You try, you try and chain, chain branches locally. It's really tough. You make a single change, you got to recursively rebase up the stack. It's super painful. Maybe someone's branched off a branch, maybe done it three times over, but you very quickly learn a lesson of like, Oh, that's tough to incorporate down stack feedback.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-79","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":80,"time":"31:11","seconds":1871,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"Maybe I won't do that again. You want to create a stack of 10 changes by hand? Good luck. Good luck. You're doing three point rebases all day. What you need is a better tool and you need it on the GitHub side. Need it on the local CLI side. And again, like we build stuff here, but there's, there's open source, there's a variety of open source CLIs that really help you manage those pointers, manage those stacks and recursively execute those rebases.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-80","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":81,"time":"31:30","seconds":1890,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I want to talk about your approach at Graphite a bit, but before we get there, I have a more philosophical question. You know, GitHub has become kind of the center of the coding universe in a lot of ways. Now it's not everything, but as you pointed out, like it's, it's the norm for most companies and it's where open source work really happens. Do you think GitHub","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-81","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":82,"time":"31:51","seconds":1911,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"needs to be reimagined for this new era of agents? Do they need to rethink their entire approach?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-82","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":83,"time":"31:58","seconds":1918,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"It's a good question. It depends. You know, I don't want to tell GitHub is a fantastic company with a huge Yeah. We're an engineer. I want something there. Tell them how to run their show, but Yeah. Exactly. But what do we need to do? Listen, GitHub is a tough challenge. I am deeply empathetic to GitHub because they have a tough challenge. They got to serve two user communities.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-83","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":84,"time":"32:15","seconds":1935,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"They have to serve all the open source developers in the world who have the longest tail of workflows and use cases, weird side projects and twenty year old Linux, you know, foundation versions, well as some bleeding edge new stuff. You know, all the new projects are also being hosted on GitHub. So they have the really wide user base over on open source. Then let's do step one. Step two, they have all the closed source companies that are running on GitHub. They're running on GitHub because it's kind of de facto and it's kind of the main tooling around. Microsoft does a good job of supporting it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-84","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":85,"time":"32:46","seconds":1966,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"And maybe they used to be on Bitbucket or explored GitLab, but by and large, a lot of the modern companies are just, are just using GitHub. One of the, you know, another reason is they often have a little bit open source. Even if you're a closed source company, you might have like 10% open source libraries or something. Set it off. It's nice to keep that all in the same GitHub organization,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-85","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":86,"time":"33:02","seconds":1982,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"make some public, make it, make the rest private. So decentralized on GitHub. Now you can get a re imagine this. It's tough. Take a, take a concept of AI code reviews, take a concept of stacking, take merge skews, take all these different systems that we're seeing work together to help handle lower trust, higher volume coaching is being created. It's tough because what works in one environment might not work in the other environments. The stuff that is best for closed source development personally, think is a lot of things that optimize monorepos,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-86","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":87,"time":"33:31","seconds":2011,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"trunk based development. You care about merge queues because you got 900 developers shipping every day. You have a really high trust environment because the average code review is a team of five people handing each other poll requests and saying, not, not please stranger, pull in my changes. They're saying, Hey, stamp this please. And I'm going to merge it in. Right. There's a different ownership model going on. You probably don't really have forking.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-87","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":88,"time":"33:50","seconds":2030,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"You probably don't really have long lived feature branches. Open source, invert every one of those constraints. You have, they're more strangers though. The PRs are open longer. You don't want a concept like stacking because you're saying like, Hey, don't incrementally merge in your changes. Cause what if you disappear halfway through and then my code base is screwed up? I don't trust you. I don't have a, you don't sit next to me at work. Give me the full complete working solution or I'm not going to merge this thing in. So now we get, we're back to long lived feature branches, slower review cycles cause there's less trust.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-88","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":89,"time":"34:18","seconds":2058,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"AI code review and so on, maybe, but who's footing the bill? This is, you know, you run into the same issues with CI and open source. It's a little bit less developed than the really heavy, rigorous, intense testing in closed source, partly because private companies are willing to spend a lot of money on that validation. So that diversion of patterns. So can GitHub do it? I mean, course they can. Of course, of course they can do a lot of stuff. They're a really, really strong engineering team, but it's, I empathize with the tough challenge they have in front of them. And I do think that the more they choose to lean into some of the AI","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-89","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":90,"time":"34:46","seconds":2086,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"power tools around software engineering, the more they may, offend their longtime open source communities. Cause I do think it's being adopted more fast and heavily in closed source. And if you lean into those patterns, it's gonna, you're gonna, you know, turn off some other workflows. Yeah. I would equate it to the challenge Google has faced where they had such a lead in so much IAI research, but faced this really classic innovator's dilemma where","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-90","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":91,"time":"35:10","seconds":2110,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"they didn't want to kill their search business. And I think they've kind of figured out how to approach it and it seems to be working out well for them now, but they were a couple of years there while frankly, they were stumbling a bit while OpenAI was fast out the gate and others were, you know, diving forward and Anthropic was growing and people are kind of going, Hey, where's Google? Now I think Gemini is doing a lot of fantastic stuff. They've integrated extremely well on Google products. And frankly, they've had that integration internally for a long time with a variety of LLMs","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-91","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":92,"time":"35:38","seconds":2138,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"that helped fuel, internal ad delivery and a lot of other things internally, but it wasn't really seeing the public light. And it's taken them a while to figure out, okay, how do we approach this cash cow we have in search and not kill the golden calf while we are trying to grow the next era. And GitHub's not the same level because it's not like the ads business, which is obviously a very special unique one. But it still has this, I think, challenge of how do we keep what we have here? And to your point, this, these bifurcated user group,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-92","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":93,"time":"36:12","seconds":2172,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"concerns while","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-93","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":94,"time":"36:14","seconds":2174,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"still trying to set up this next era. And you see them focusing a lot on CodeGen. I think that that's reasonable because code creation is an area where among these two user groups, it's actually pretty similar. Whether it's an open source project, closed source project, you're still going to Versus Code. You're still typing for a little while. Maybe you're using a V0 style pro style like project starter or creator. I think they have GitHub Spark, which is kind of their equivalent.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-94","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":95,"time":"36:38","seconds":2198,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"So on the cogen side, it's a little bit easier. It's, I think it's really when you get back to that outer loop of software development, how people are collaborating and integrating, you see immensely different workflows and it's a little bit tougher for them to optimize that. And speaking of outer loop,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-95","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":96,"time":"36:50","seconds":2210,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I think the work you're doing in Graphite is really interesting. The entire outer loop of software engineering is changing as we've kind of been talking about this whole conversation And Graphite has taken, I think really unique approach that is seeing a lot of success, obviously with some of the brands you're working with. I believe Anthropic backing you. Using Claude in some novel ways.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-96","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":97,"time":"37:20","seconds":2240,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Without giving away the secret sauce, can you talk a bit about the unique challenges of applying LLMs to the task of code review as opposed to just code generation.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-97","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":98,"time":"37:31","seconds":2251,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I, in many ways, for folks who haven't heard of Graphite, I can describe it a lot of different ways, but one way I can describe it on simple terms is a client on top of GitHub, helping folks execute code review and execute those outer loop steps. We help you once you have a pull request, process it, integrate it, test it, validate it, merge it as smoothly and quickly as possible. You might use an advanced email client on top of your old Gmail or Yahoo account. You might have a calendar client on your iPhone or a client on top of GitHub in many respects. And we leverage, we try to use a lot of these AI features. How are we using them?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-98","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":99,"time":"38:07","seconds":2287,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"And how is anyone honestly using, using them in this phase of the process? There's a couple of really small, no brainers you could do. You can help generate the PR title and the description, and you can give some advanced search features. These are very simple stuff. You can help run a auto linter of sorts, an AI code review. I take that diff, feed it through the LLM and try and call out mistakes, issues,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-99","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":100,"time":"38:31","seconds":2311,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"vulnerabilities in the code in line. In many ways, I mean, can, you can brand it differently. You can brand it as as you know, AI code review. It's kind of exciting. You can brand it in a boring way too, which I kind of enjoy as an engineer, which is, Hey, this is just another variant of CI. What is CI? You know, CI is I'm going take the code change, run some deterministic unit tests, and deterministic abstract syntactic tree, winter things on it. I'm going do all sorts so that I can give you a check mark or an X and I can leave some in my comments.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-100","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":101,"time":"38:59","seconds":2339,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"What is it LLM? It's kind of like a fuzzy version of that. It's like a, you don't have to configure it much. Not very brutal. It kind of is very flexible, works for any language, but it's just, it's just giving you some validation and you don't, you don't fully accept a code change just because it passed CI, but it definitely sure as heck helps. I think AI code review fits that bucket. So we","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-101","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":102,"time":"39:17","seconds":2357,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"build some of that and a lot of it, and I'm not gonna lie there. We don't do too much fancy stuff. We, of course we work hard on this, but a lot of it is just taking really smart models. We don't build our own from Anthropic or Gemini or OpenAI, any of these companies. And sometimes a mix of them. We'll feed that diff through. We'll take custom rules and style guides from the users. We'll take previous uploaded and download comments and we'll try to build all together and try and leave them some good feedback on the pull request. We personally really optimize on leaving actionable inline comments and trying to be quiet if we don't have high confidence in the issue. Because","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-102","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":103,"time":"39:50","seconds":2390,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"man, I really think trust matters a lot with all these emergent AI tools. When I see information, if it's right, that's great. If it's wrong, I get really annoyed really fast. So I'd rather, if you're going to distract me, you better, you better have some really good confidence. We try to build that into the system. Other things we do, you know, we take inspiration again from the, from some of the innovations that the Cursor team created. Cursor team added this great sidebar","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-103","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":104,"time":"40:13","seconds":2413,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"on the IDE that let you ask questions and make modifications. And, you know, Sasha's not just us look at like any productivity product in the world right now from Google docs to wherever they all now are. Sasha said as well, right. Oh, you're going have just a copilot with you. That's going to, you know, work through. Think we'll a Everyone's find chat. Yeah. Exactly. But, you know, so we've, we've brought in a chat into their product, but it's actually worked real, it's been really nice, you know.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-104","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":105,"time":"40:37","seconds":2437,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"A code review is actually a case where you want to ask questions or maybe run quick research queries on a bunch of old PRs or old You're really care programming in lot of ways. It really helps. It really helps. And also inline modifications. Sometimes you're like, Hey, this pull request looks pretty good. Just rename a couple of these variables. Now either I can check out that PR, pull it locally, modify those in my IDE, commit it, save it, push it back, or I can just ask chat, Hey, just, just fix those, those, those quick changes right here. And then we're good to go. And so we've also enabled it to make really fast early modifications.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-105","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":106,"time":"41:06","seconds":2466,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"These are the, these are starting to be the, the, the, advents of how to use AI to make the review process better. It's conversational chat to research and modify the PR. It's AI automatically scanning, looking for issues. It's helping fill out the busy work of the process. We love doing this stuff because surface. We've already spent so much time building a really powerful","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-106","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":107,"time":"41:31","seconds":2491,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"pull request UI for looking at that code change and reviewing it manually. So it's really nice and easy to kind of layer on these, these nice, features on top of it. I think it's a little bit tougher if you don't start with a UI surface area because you're trying to do everything headlessly. Again, it's why I respect that the cursor team actually said, Hey, we're not just going build a Versus Code extension. We're going to take the entire IDE and that's going to allow us to have a better UX and go a little bit deeper on our integration here. Now they, they were able to fork Versus Code. We, we were, we weren't able to fork anything. So here we had to kind of recreate it from the ground up, but in many ways, we're still just a client on top of GitHub and modifying the underlying data.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-107","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":108,"time":"42:07","seconds":2527,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"This focus on the outer loop brings, something you said earlier, which is that seniors are really the ones who are seeing a lot of gains from these They AI are deeply enabled by them. They have the personal context and experience to get the most out of them. And I'll be frank, I'm worried. I'm worried juniors are being left behind. Like, sure, maybe they can learn more easily by using AI as a pair programmer and leveraging its knowledge. Maybe that's easier than going","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-108","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":109,"time":"42:41","seconds":2561,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"through Stack Overflow page after Stack Overflow page. But the outer loop area is this area where you need a lot of context, seniors thrive, and we're seeing less junior software engineers get hired. We're seeing a lot of grads come out of top schools with engineering degrees, seemingly, at least anecdotally struggling to get jobs. We're seeing the percentages of hiring for juniors for most of the major, the Mag-seven and others,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-109","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":110,"time":"43:10","seconds":2590,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"go down. Is there a hiring gap that we need to be thinking about as an industry?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-110","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":111,"time":"43:17","seconds":2597,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"I have- okay. So, so we're going to get into like pontification land. Caveat, caveat. Yeah. We're, yeah, we're, we're guests of the future here. So let's see, let's see where these, these, you know, predictions take us, but I have a couple of predictions going on and one is a little bit pessimistic and one is a little bit optimistic. So, you know, on a pessimistic prediction,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-111","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":112,"time":"43:39","seconds":2619,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"I wouldn't be surprised if the software engineering field starts getting a little bit closer to what I've already seen happen in finance and in consulting and law, where you also get a lot of new grads from a lot of top universities and programs work really hard and really grindy and really humbly to desperately try and get a small number of opportunities at a big three consulting firm or a top law firm, or they go to Goldman and get destroyed in iBanking.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-112","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":113,"time":"44:06","seconds":2646,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"Partly because there's not a ton of value. There's a lot of people want to do it and there's, there's a little bit less value for an entry level person, but if they can clear that entry level, then they start getting leveraged. They can start doing really powerful stuff in these fields. Engineering has been an interesting anomaly for the last twenty or so years where","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-113","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":114,"time":"44:23","seconds":2663,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"entry level people can be really useful and productive in an organization. There's a shortage of them. And so people graduate college and they get, you know, high a $100,000, sometimes total comp, 200,000 plus job offers. It's pretty incredible. And they're being swept up and go to companies with incredible perks and have an amazing time. I love that. I benefited from that. A lot of people do.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-114","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":115,"time":"44:42","seconds":2682,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"But you know, if you see that regress to the mean a little bit, and it looks a little bit more like these other fields, I wouldn't be too shocked. It's a bummer. It's going to be tougher on folks graduating, but I just feel like we already have precedent for this in other fields and those fields are, they're holistically okay. There's room for improvement in some the iBanking and some of these things, but like","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-115","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":116,"time":"45:01","seconds":2701,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"the society seems generally okay with that. It's perhaps, perhaps that we're watching an anomaly kind of approach a meme here. That's my pessimistic take. My optimistic take is that if someone is a, if you're an individual and you have high initiative, and I think it really takes initiative, but if you have high initiative, man, the getting has never been so good. I really think so. When I, when I, so in high school, I had to get a job. So I didn't want to bag groceries at the local grocery store. Instead, I was like determined I was going make iOS apps, and it was like iOS three or four. I was like trying to figure out how to make iOS apps. And I'm reading tutorials online. I got coding for dummies.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-116","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":117,"time":"45:36","seconds":2736,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"I found like an old low quality, like iTunes U university course on iOS development. And I'm fighting my way through Xcode on a virtual machine on a family Intel computer. And you make it work. I think the bar is lower now. I think if I was in high school trying to make an iOS app to make money on the app store, I think I have, you know, I have incredible tutoring. Heck, I don't, I have an Oracle that'll debug every problem for me and also has a learning mode built into that Oracle that'll help me. I have coding agents. Now I got to take initiative, but I can do a lot. I can get a lot of reps in. I can create a lot very, very, very quickly. And, you know, maybe I can kind of progress through","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-117","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":118,"time":"46:13","seconds":2773,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"that junior phase of software development and I can, I can take down barriers that would have existed before then? You're right. Maybe it's hard to get hired a company, but I do, from what I can tell, a lot these companies are still running relatively normal interviews. And if you can crush a coding interview and you can crush an architecture interview and you can show an amazing project, people will still look at you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-118","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":119,"time":"46:32","seconds":2792,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"You're just, you're just gonna have to show some initiative. You're gonna have to work very hard, but I'm optimistic for folks who have that energy. It's actually gotten a little bit nicer, a little bit easier and a little bit less gatekept in many ways. So competition's higher, but there's incredible opportunity. And I just really think like over the next ten years, we're going to see so much incredible technology be built out. Is it I'm just such an optimist. I think it's the best time ever to be an engineer, you know, not the worst time. I suspect","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-119","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":120,"time":"46:58","seconds":2818,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"we're gonna see a melding of your two cases here, where yes, software engineering broadly is going to regress to the mean of, it's a little harder to get that incredible entry level role, but where people with high agency are enabled with tools and with capabilities beyond so far, so far beyond what we've seen in the past. And I think we're already seeing that with some people building companies, building iOS apps, as you mentioned.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-120","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":121,"time":"47:26","seconds":2846,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And while we're on the topic, let's just keep going into the future. I I'd love to keep unraveling from you what, what you're seeing. What's graphite strategy as you look at the next, God, it's hard to say this, but let's call it five years of software engineering, which is a lot of time in AI land. Maybe it's really two years. Like how are you thinking about these next stages of development? Do you see a new wave coming you're trying to address? Is it really all about like nailing the current level of agents? Curious on your perspective.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-121","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":122,"time":"47:55","seconds":2875,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"Absolutely. So I think about this. I have to. I'm a founder. It's my job. Step one, what are we, what are we trying to do as a company? We're trying to build the best tooling possible to help engineers collaborate on code changes. We think fundamentally code collaboration, it exists now. It's going continue to exist. Maybe some of that collaboration is with AI bots, but we're still going to be working together. I don't think the whole world moves to like individual companies run by one engineer. No, no, no. We're, we still got engineers working together, collaborating with those code changes, and we are in the business of helping them work on that. So","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-122","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":123,"time":"48:28","seconds":2908,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"now I can extrapolate that. And you know, a lot of that goes into just building classic product fundamentals. Let's build a great, great UX. Let's build great workflows. Let's take good ideas from these big tech companies that were bottled up and let's bring them out to everyone. These classic dev tool principles still apply. Now I have to, then I also have to play Oracle with AI. And when I play Oracle with AI,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-123","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":124,"time":"48:48","seconds":2928,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"I think about a couple of different outcomes. One outcome is we stall. We, wherever, wherever we currently are, you, there's always a chance you're like, Oh, I guess this, this was the peak, you know? This is as good, as smart as it gets. It's unlikely because I'm of just gonna jump here and here, even if it does stall at that, there's still so many gains to be had","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-124","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":125,"time":"49:06","seconds":2946,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"over the next few years around the infra, around the providing context. If the actual level of reasoning stalls for a year or two, which I think is possible, word or at least slows down. I think we're maybe seeing that. There's just so many games around the edges of the outer loop that you're already working on. That'd be my take at least. I completely agree.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-125","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":126,"time":"49:24","seconds":2964,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"I think we can keep I think not all the UX patterns have been invented here. No. I think not all the smart ideas have come up and I want to help find those, understand them, incorporate them into the product and keep optimizing that mission of helping engineers work in coaching. Now that's if, if it, you're, I agree. If, if we, if this is as smart as AI gets, we, we, we still got our work cut out for us. There's another question. Okay. What if AI gets so,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-126","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":127,"time":"49:47","seconds":2987,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"smart that, it really starts changing how software engineering gets done? Maybe you really are mostly collaborating with bots. We're still in a world where you're mostly collaborating with humans and people are using the create code, but you're, there's still like another human avatar user on the other end, mostly in code review and these systems. What if that really starts shifting? What if we really start getting like, like a lot of these coaches or","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-127","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":128,"time":"50:06","seconds":3006,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"AI? Okay. How do we think about the world? Maybe it looks, you mentioned like a little more tech leady or everyone's acting like an engineering manager. You're now wrangling various agents and you're, you're chatting with them, giving a feedback and trying to incorporate their code changes. And I think, and I think there's like this third level, I, I imagine if AI gets really, really good and I don't even need much of the review side anymore, if it gets so good that it listens in on all my meetings and all my feedback and it just does, it can do review better than I can and writes my tests and executes them and coordinates my AWS infrastructure,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-128","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":129,"time":"50:38","seconds":3038,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"what's left for me then? I, oh, one. Okay. Now, now we really are like wondering if we're out of a job, but I think that it starts looking like an agency model. I actually have a paradigm for this. So if, if like one step up of intelligence is you're a manager or a tech lead, The next step up is you're, you're, you're like a, you're someone hiring an agency. And if you've ever really contracted an agency to build you a website, what actually happens is you talk to them and they say, fantastic. Thanks for calling us to build a website. Step one, tell us what you want. Then they're like, okay. Yeah, yeah. But you're really bad at articulating your vision. So I'm actually gonna like interview and like pull out what you really want for thirty minutes. And they're like, I'm going come back to you in a week and I'm going show you three variants because I still think that you don't know what you want. And then we're going pick that one. Then I'm going to keep Imagine I'm going hand you a website that we worked on that I like did for you and you were annoying to work with,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-129","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":130,"time":"51:22","seconds":3082,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"and you have no idea how it works. You've never read the code, but here's your website. That's like the agency model of AI. That's like, that to me is like the upper bound of how far we approach this, where that's what happens if you stop reviewing the code a little bit. He's, he's so smart that they're just pulling the context out of you, like treating you like a, like a little child. And so that, so I think, you know, we end up on a spectrum somewhere in that world.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-130","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":131,"time":"51:42","seconds":3102,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"I think, I dunno, I'm, this is a very, vanilla take, but I think we'll end up kind of in the middle where 20% of changes are headless. Engineers are still running some of them. We're still heavily involved in code review. The very least I think about the security in the context is just such a blocker to getting out of the code review side of things. Even if these things are amazingly smart, I've yet to see people solve the gullibility problem of AI. You just, you look at these hacks and they're like, you just, you just insert a little prompt injection and it goes off the rails.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-131","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":132,"time":"52:11","seconds":3131,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"I really hope the Tesla autopilot team is still reading the code changes going into their Got it. Too. Really hoping, you know, there's high stakes engineering happening in the world. So I think it'll be milky. But I do, do pontificate about like, what happens if we just don't even review, don't even read the code ever? Oh man.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-132","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":133,"time":"52:27","seconds":3147,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Greg, I feel like we could have another hour of conversation, but we do have to wrap it up. Thank you so much for the lovely chat. It's been such a fun time. Where can our listeners go to find you and to find Graphite, if they want to learn more? Absolutely. If you want to learn more about Graphite, you just go to graphite.dev.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-133","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":134,"time":"52:43","seconds":3163,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"We have a lovely splash page. You can sign up for a free trial. You can play with it. There's no lock in. If you want learn more about myself, you can check me out on TwitterX or LinkedIn, where I'm reasonably active.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-134","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":135,"time":"52:55","seconds":3175,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Fantastic. So much fun chatting with you today. Really, really appreciate the time. And, thanks for all the insights and, and, I think mild debate, but, a lot of a lot of interesting stuff here. I think there's a lot of takeaways and I mean, threads we can keep pulling on here because there is such a transformation happening in software development and it's clear that we need to rethink how work happens, not just for today, but for the next couple of years as we look at these potential scenarios we're talking about.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-135","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":136,"time":"53:26","seconds":3206,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Thank you all for listening. That's all for this episode of Chain of Thought. Don't forget to subscribe to our new Chain of Thought newsletter on LinkedIn for more insights on Building with AI and make sure you're subscribed to the podcast while you're at it, whether you're on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, your favorite podcasting app of choice, we don't want you to miss a conversation. And God, if you are an Apple Podcasts, if you're on Spotify, if you're on YouTube, you know what means a lot to us? A comment, a like, a review, that sort of engagement really is an incredible signal to both, your human counterparts that maybe they check out the show. And you know what? It's great for the digital counterparts who are deciding whether or not to index us, whether to promote us in the feed, etcetera. So, you know, provide the context that everyone needs to enjoy Chain of Thought. And speaking of great conversations, we're always looking for more AI builders and leaders for each on the show. If you know someone who'd be a perfect fit, please reach out to us on socials or leave a comment with your review of the show. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next week. Greg, thank you so much for joining us. Ton tons of fun. Thanks for having me. And we'll get you peddling reviews.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-136","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":137,"time":"54:24","seconds":3264,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I have to. It's not just me. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-137","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster","episode":40,"guid":"1e243bbc-aa44-4c29-a3bb-72d198506b79","episodeTitle":"After Code Gen: What Graphite Is Building for the Post-AI Dev Stack | Greg Foster","publishedAt":"2025-09-24","segmentIndex":138,"time":"54:26","seconds":3266,"speaker":"Greg Foster","text":"Awesome. Thanks guys. Thanks.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/40-after-code-gen-what-graphite-is-building-for-the-post-ai-dev-stack-greg-foster/#t-138","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"On the agent in particular, this framing that I have where it's a new kind of software, but not software that's like weird, but software that we always wanted to write. Where I'm coming from is that there is a type of software that automates something that we do on a daily basis, where there is a little bit of flexibility that's needed, where that's actually quite difficult to model in software, where traditionally because you would have written these if this and that type of blocks, it's just difficult to make that exhaustive,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:27","seconds":27,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"but agents do really well on that same software, so suddenly it's super easy to write.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":2,"time":"0:36","seconds":36,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Welcome back to Chain of Thought, everyone. I am your host, Conor Bronsdon. And today, I'm joined by Malte Ubl, CTO at Vercel. Malte, it's great to see you again. Great to be here. Super awesome. Yeah. It's it's been a lot of fun chatting with you over, I guess, the last year. It was the last time we had a chance to sit down and kind of dive deep on everything happening with AI. So it's been fun to watch a couple of your talks","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":3,"time":"0:59","seconds":59,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"as you've continued to be a prominent voice in the AI space, often striking a balance between excitement and pragmatism and the ability to be actionable, which I think is something Vercel does a really good job of. And you've even described yourself as an anti hype guy at times, something which was on full display at your recent Vercel ship twenty twenty five talk.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":4,"time":"1:21","seconds":81,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And you had some fantastic takeaways there. In particular, you talked about the FOMO that people are feeling right now. And as someone who talks to leaders like yourself every week who are all doing exciting things in AI, I feel this FOMO vehemently. Every week I'm going, Oh God, here's a new thing that I haven't experimented enough with yet. And it's very common, I think, for folks who are building in a space to experience this. It's almost the default emotion of","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":5,"time":"1:48","seconds":108,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"AI builders as perpetual FOMO, because there's so much happening, there's so much hype, there's so many new and exciting things that are actually being achieved, and the space is moving faster than I think many of us have ever experienced. You've posited that AI agents in particular are a new kind of software and a new paradigm, that is something we've always wanted to create, but couldn't for economic and,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":6,"time":"2:15","seconds":135,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"you know, energy and, frankly reasoning reasons. Could you expand on how you see","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":7,"time":"2:23","seconds":143,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"agents and AI more broadly shifting the paradigm of how technology is working today? Yeah, totally. And I think the way I qualify anti hype guy is that I'm actually I'm pretty hype y about this stuff, but I try to ground it in reality. Like I think there's always this moment in when tech comes out that people kind of feel compelled, like they feel the FOMO, but they don't really quite know what the thing is. And so like, you don't really know where to start, right? And what","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":8,"time":"2:51","seconds":171,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"definitely is different in AI is that there is value though. Because I, you know, it felt like almost the entire Web3 hype cycle was like, just perpetually there. But you can never find, you know, the thing that actually would be the value was never really discovered, but this is so different, right? Like, it's, you can go try it out and then it actually happens to work.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":9,"time":"3:17","seconds":197,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"So so we're coming from a different perspective. And the the yeah, the the on on on the agent in particular, the this this framing that I have where it's a new kind of software, but not software that's weird, but software that we always wanted to write. Where I'm coming from is that there is a title software that automates something that we do on a daily basis,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":10,"time":"3:45","seconds":225,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"where there's a little bit of flexibility that's needed, where that's actually quite difficult to model in software. Where like traditionally because you would have written these like if this and that type of blocks, it's just difficult to make that exhaustive. But agents do really well on that same software, so suddenly it's super easy to write. I could give a few example,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":11,"time":"4:10","seconds":250,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"and just from the top of my head, so we've been working on, I don't like this category, DevSecOps agent. It's basically just kind of takes anomaly detection from a firewall and goes fishing for like, what happened? Like and it could be anything. It could be many, many things, and and and it can be all of these things, like, combined in novel ways. And so writing software that would do that analysis would be, I mean, at least difficult and a lot of work, and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":12,"time":"4:44","seconds":284,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"if you just take a modern frontier model and you give it a few tools to say, here's how you can query our data stream, what happened? Right? It will do a pretty good job just from the scratch. And then you can do it better over time, but it actually is able to answer that question in a way that is valuable, and you spend you know, an afternoon on it. And now you have a piece of software, again, like that used to be so hard to write and and and,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":13,"time":"5:14","seconds":314,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"you know, the now it's now it's something we can actually do. I completely agree. It's it's interesting too, because it feels like, and maybe this speaks to your anti hyppositioning, that we all overestimate the ability to go from zero to 100% of solving the problem, and maybe underestimate how much effort is required in that final you know, 20% of solving it. Because to your point, it's really easy to have a, you know, simple agent, that's working off a frontier model, you know, take your pick depending on the task, and solve a lot of this problem right off the bat. And then","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":14,"time":"5:50","seconds":350,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"we maybe are distracted and don't go through all the needed tweaks to get it to a 100% of our task. Yet at the same time, that that's incredible. We in an hour or two have solved most of this problem. And I wonder if part of why there is this, bit of a hype gap there is that while most developers are thinking about agents, not all of them are actually building them yet. And, you know, I I referenced your talk at Forsell's Ship 2025,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":15,"time":"6:25","seconds":385,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and one of the first things you asked the audience was how many of you are actually building with agents today? How many of you have actually tried it out? And, I believe you said about 5% of that audience actually had. Whereas, I know you think it's gonna be more like 100% when you come back and ask that same question next year. Right.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":16,"time":"6:43","seconds":403,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"Yeah. And the reason just is that I think we, like in our finding, like we tried actually quite a few things, and they all work. Unreasonably effective. And so I feel it generalizes to multiple categories. Now, will give one caveat, which is that the reason why and obviously, we're talking to like a software development audience who is using AI agents today in substantial fashion.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":17,"time":"7:14","seconds":434,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"Right? Maybe Cursor, but I mean, certainly Claude Code just fits that bill and is working and it's fascinating. And so the the I think the the agreed upon reason why you have these like very effective agents in software engineering and you don't have them in other disciplines, is that in the software engineering area, you can reinforcement learn on this very valuable, open ended problem in a way that's more difficult for","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":18,"time":"7:49","seconds":469,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"things that don't have source code that you can validate and run unit tests on and so forth, right? So it's a little bit easier to make these agents very good at software engineering than it is to make them really good at anything, but having said that, I think that is basically just pointing towards something that is going to be true more generally, and that's why I feel that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":19,"time":"8:09","seconds":489,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"what we see as signal today in our own discipline does most likely generalize further out. Because I am working on DevTools, I only have DevTools examples, right? Actually, let me give you one example that I thought was really cool. Please. So I live in Alameda, and specifically on Bay Farm Island, which is the same peninsula that has the Oakland Airport. And I don't hear airplanes","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":20,"time":"8:36","seconds":516,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"except for the trijets. And so I I don't love them, and they they and they, you know, not obviously no no passenger airline anymore flies them. But the but the cargo airlines do. And so I was out I wanted to wondered when are they phasing them out? And the Internet doesn't know that, so I I sent out deep research, and what JetGPT did, it looked at all the flight data of every day from the Oakland Airport that it publishes, and figured out what is the over time change in tri jet patterns. Oh.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":21,"time":"9:10","seconds":550,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"Obviously I could have done that myself, but it was like a hell of a lot of work, So I wouldn't have done that myself, and now you have this thing that does it. So that just worked, out of the box deep research task. It created novel data that was technically there, but obviously it would have been incredibly difficult to surface. We actually have a product under development that is very similar,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":22,"time":"9:33","seconds":573,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"which is we have an agent that does essentially the same as Git bisect for Vercel preview deployments. It's because Vercel has immutable deployments, you can essentially bisect them to find out where a regression occurred, and so this bot, can teach it how to reproduce a problem, and then it just does the bisect. It's a similar thing where, I mean, you can do that as a human, but it's a horrible task. We happen to be bad at it, even with a bisect helper,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":23,"time":"10:08","seconds":608,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"going to go up, down. Humans are so bad at this, it's very easy to program that thing, and so it perfectly fits into an agent. This agent, this is already different from a Clock code, right, because you're in this, in a world that is kind of outside of coding, that again just works. With relatively small effort, you have this incredibly valuable tool that is able to navigate more uncertainty than a traditional computer program have been able to. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":24,"time":"10:41","seconds":641,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"That's a really great example. And I know we we all know like, it's fantastic to have a grid pattern search, and we we wanna approach things that way. But God, when you have to, you know, bisect things yourself and recreate a problem, it can be tedious. Yep. So I love that as an example. And it sounds like you're identifying other unlocked opportunities for businesses that are embracing AI agents today. Know, obviously coding and dev tools are","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":25,"time":"11:08","seconds":668,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"clear examples here where we have a ton of public data to train off of. We have a lot of solved problems. We have a ton of people who are working on these problems who can help, you know, fine tune and improve this. But what are the other use cases that you think businesses should be embracing today for agents? Yeah. I think the clear","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":26,"time":"11:28","seconds":688,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"big one is support agents. That's where we also see kind of this entire ecosystem of kind of, let's like, call them SaaS businesses that act specifically in this space, like Decagon, Sierra, etcetera. Right? And I think generally speaking, there's this because it's now cheaper to make software, I wonder how much you're actually gonna buy software packages like that versus you're able to buy these yourself, have the perfect tailored support experience. So I think that's a that's a big one.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":27,"time":"12:03","seconds":723,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"And I mean, I just gave this deep research example. So deep research as a basically just like generalized way of, you know, going through data. That's useful, and whatever public AI is there does not have access to your company's data. So I think one one really concrete thing that you can probably work for your company is that you've built a deep research tool","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":28,"time":"12:32","seconds":752,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"that has access to your private data, right, that you don't share with anyone else. How would you suggest that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":29,"time":"12:39","seconds":759,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"engineering leaders or product leaders who are currently evaluating their own AI use cases think through these opportunities? So it sounds like one, you know, what can you unlock with your private data? I think that's a great example. Two, you know, what tasks are simply challenging to solve today that you can at least get mostly solved much faster with an agent or AI solution?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":30,"time":"13:05","seconds":785,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"What other ways would you encourage other leaders to be thinking about solving problems with AI? Yeah, think the, I mean,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":31,"time":"13:13","seconds":793,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"overall, it's all about being creative, right, and knowing your business. I think besides the categories that I've been talking about, it's worth whenever you have a workflow, it's worth looking into, and often in like, especially bigger companies, you have a process, there is some kind of routing phase in there where it's difficult to write this algorithm, like what's next, right? And that's I think where AI models excel, like finding,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":32,"time":"13:45","seconds":825,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"where you basically just write down the business rules in pros, and you basically just have the LLM execute your business rules. Right? That that works really well. The other one, the other pattern I think that is under discussed, in my opinion, is AI in the loop, because people love to talk about human in the loop. Human in the loop, the AI does the work, and then you have a reviewer. That's obviously what usually should happen. Right? It's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":33,"time":"14:12","seconds":852,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"so obviously true that I don't even think it's necessary discuss this, but the opposite also works really well. So if the human does the work, then AI is an incredible reviewer. I think what we're seeing now is that AI core review, first of all, is amazing. It has this relentless list. It doesn't forget about your past mistakes. It checks again if you make a million. Stuff like that. So I'm a fan. And so I think that is almost","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":34,"time":"14:43","seconds":883,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"like there's no way that doesn't generalize. Right? Like I think validating work product against about like about hard to like again, the the rules you wanna validate against are really difficult to put in algorithm. Right? Mean, often with human work product, it's a natural language, it's very hard to write lint rules against human output, right? But you can basically think about AI doing a similar thing where","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":35,"time":"15:14","seconds":914,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"like let's say you're in the marketing department and you have a certain policy around how language should be used, like that is something that an LLM can enforce really well, and again, it doesn't go to bed, it wake up tired, right? So it's good at these very tedious tasks that humans, the fifteenth time they do it, go low on quality. So I think those are kind of the areas that are","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":36,"time":"15:43","seconds":943,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"ripe for ideas. And again, these are just examples of so you have you have an idea in your head. The the next step then to, like, turn this into something more practical is that what I call the vibe check, where you actually do a non programming exercise to find out if the LM is anywhere up to the task. Some of the examples I just gave, they're almost trivial","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":37,"time":"16:11","seconds":971,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"to check-in that way, right? Like if I have a set of writing rules, and I wanna understand if the AI is doing a good job at forcing them, I can do that right now, right? I go to chatjibidi.com, I paste my text, I ask it, can you please check this text against these rules and see what happens, right? And if it delivers all kinds of false positives, then that sucks, and if it doesn't find the problems, that also sucks, but maybe it does. And you really quickly can understand,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":38,"time":"16:42","seconds":1002,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"am I giving the AI a task that it's just not up to, and maybe I need to wait a year, or maybe I need to do something else, or you're saying, okay, though, actually this does seem to kind of work, and great, now I can go and turn it into a program, right? Because obviously, the next day, ideally, we don't have to paste it in the JGBT","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":39,"time":"17:04","seconds":1024,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and write a prompt from scratch, but that part is like the easy part. I I feel like this is almost a a simpler version of the kind of MVP approach that a lot of folks are encouraging when it comes to building out new product features, Where they're saying, oh, well, just, you know, vibe code a quick version of that feature, see how it looks. Or, you know, of, you know, vibe code what you want the new UI to look like, and, you know, let's let's have something to work off of.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":40,"time":"17:29","seconds":1049,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And you're saying, hey, you know, that's a great step. But before we even get to that, with let's just really simply check the use case. Is this something that an LLM is kind of equipped to handle right now, or are we gonna have to add more structure and more context, or simply wait till better set up for? A 100%. Yeah. I think you're right in that it","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":41,"time":"17:49","seconds":1069,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"fulfills a similar role in the process. I mean, I'm generally the biggest fan of rapid prototyping and using an early version of the app as a discussion platform, rather than the fully blown thing. Obviously, we're making V0, which is like, that's the whole point, but I think that great for when your idea is that you're gonna ship this product, right, and it has","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":42,"time":"18:16","seconds":1096,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"an experience and you wanna experience it. So that's one thing. The other thing is that, now, if that product has an AI at heart, obviously, it might not, but if it does, like, you know, because you're building an agent, then it really helps to just kind of prompt your, you know, your way to seeing if it's if it's working, because it it just removes all these steps that are essentially enterprise process automation, right? You know, and maybe that's like only five minutes in your startup,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":43,"time":"18:50","seconds":1130,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"but if there's an SAP and Oracle and you know, whatever. Right? Like, it might be a lot of stuff. And like writing code against those doesn't hurt, but like you also you don't you know, that's I think we're all kinda confident that we could do it if we you know, if the AI at the heart kind of did what we wanted. What would be your next step? So you've started to do this iteration.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":44,"time":"19:19","seconds":1159,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"You've kind of validated that, hey, yeah, this is a real use case we could apply this to. What should builders do next to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":45,"time":"19:27","seconds":1167,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"turn this into a fully fledged agent or system? Yeah. So hopefully we we found out that the AI somehow magically actually, you know, does what we want. Then, yeah, then I mean that's the step where you go and put it in the software, right? Like that's when we attach it to the, our business systems that have the data that we wanna process. Yeah, again, it could be all kinds of different services depending on what we wanna build. But it's like, at this stage,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":46,"time":"19:57","seconds":1197,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"what we're really doing is effectively the just plain old workflow integration, right? So that step, it should like, if you're a backend engineer, you're right at home. Like, you're not learning anything new. That's what you're already doing day to day. Nothing's nothing's weird. The other stuff is that at this point, you build up the actual agent, and we actually haven't talked too much about what that means, so maybe now is a good time. Please.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":47,"time":"20:23","seconds":1223,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"There there are different architectures, but the one that feels uncomfortable, but works that which is the architecture, which is why, for example, Claude Code works as magical as it does, and and the one I would encourage using is the most simple one, which is where you have an LLM, and you you know, obviously you have some kind of trigger for why you start working, have some kind of input data and prompt,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":48,"time":"20:48","seconds":1248,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"and you give it a set of tools. And these tools should be relatively simple. So for a coding agent, would be read files, list files, edit files, create pull requests. Nothing crazy, right? Really just to kind of go figure out what's in my repository. Maybe there's a grab files in there or something like that, right? If you're you're building any form of like","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":49,"time":"21:18","seconds":1278,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"deep research agent, you'll give it as like and you wanna attach it to your company database. Maybe you give it a search functionality that hits your glean or whatever you're using, right? And maybe you give it like a generic SQL execution tool that gives it access to your Snowflake. Or maybe you're doing something more specific, but that's the type of tools you give it. And you describe to the LM, this is what these tools are good for, this is your goal,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":50,"time":"21:47","seconds":1307,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"and you tell the LM, okay, you get to make up to 10 turns using a tool that's towards your goal, and then you just let it cook. So you literally tell it, go figure it out, right? And then, okay, says, okay, this is my task. Okay, I have this tool. Okay, that seems useful. Execute the tool. It gets the response back and sees, okay, this is what happened, okay, does this help me, does it not, maybe I need to call this tool again with a different query, or no, this is actually right. So it figures out this entire sequence","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":51,"time":"22:19","seconds":1339,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"of kind of iterating towards the result in a fully autonomous fashion. And the magic is that that works. And you have to, it does feel a little bit uncomfortable. I think we all, what we've been finding is that you actually really want to make these tools somewhat atomic, rather than more high level, more specific to the task, and that just works. You have to give it a try, but that's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":52,"time":"22:50","seconds":1370,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"the architecture, and then at the end, that LM produces some kind of output, and there you go. If folks are not so familiar with how these LMs work, you have multiple turns, and technically this almost like a immutable function in the sense that the when you call it again, you just give it the previous output. And so it acts like it would be continuing on previous interactions,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":53,"time":"23:24","seconds":1404,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"the previous two calls, obviously it's processing a new tool return, but really it always goes from scratch and just does the token completion, but given the new data, right? And so that actually works. Yeah, at the end, get some good output, there was something you were going to do, right? So you do that. That's where you're back to the plain old workflow automation,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":54,"time":"23:52","seconds":1432,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"and there you have it. That's the whole program. How do you then approach optimization","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":55,"time":"23:58","seconds":1438,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"of this to ensure you move from 90% of great to a 100% or whatever it is you're looking to truly solve? Yeah. I think I mean, even maybe slightly before that,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":56,"time":"24:11","seconds":1451,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"because we have this chaotic software now, right? The core kind of business logic was kind of only expressed in words, and the LLM is figuring out its own path, given the rules you gave it. So that is, again, that's a new kind of software. It's it's very different. So we do have to put in all kinds of logging and tracing to understand what it does. Right? And if, know, if you're professional software engineers, were probably already like super deep in that topic, but if we skipped it for now,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":57,"time":"24:46","seconds":1486,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"you need tracing now. Because the trace tells you what the thing did. It's not always the same trace. It really depends. So you gotta figure out what's going on, and from there you can go and do the optimization. The optimization itself, folks probably have heard the term prompt engineering, which is basically really golfing out prompt towards being more successful.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":58,"time":"25:19","seconds":1519,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"I think one thing that isn't as intuitive is that if you give a tool to the LM, that is also an exercise in prompt engineering. So you need to explain to the LM what the tool is for, what that kind of I mean, obviously, the the signature of the arguments, but also, like, let's say you have a string argument. You need to tell it what goes in there, like, what the format is, if there's anything that cannot be expressed in the time system. Like, you have to be really expressive.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":59,"time":"25:47","seconds":1547,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"The the way I think we're essentially past this step for in g p d 3.5 step. You needed to do all these tricks with prompt engineering. Right. It's largely not needed anymore, but you really have to treat my advice is to treat it like a junior engineer who isn't the smartest kid on the block, but has incredible patience with you. So you can tell it how things work,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":60,"time":"26:24","seconds":1584,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"then it always considers it. Sometimes it ignores it a little bit and stuff, the education that you give it is actually considered every time the program runs from scratch, because it's previously stateless, it's not a learning system for now, but that also means that it's always top of mind. Your business rules are always top Right? Of So, yeah, you have to write them down.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":61,"time":"26:51","seconds":1611,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"I know, as an engineer, we don't love writing docs, that's our job now, because we're writing docs for the machine. But it feels better because the thing that listens to you doesn't feel like writing documents because other engineers also don't love reading them that they don't read. These things like read you a Yeah, at least this one, it listens you a little bit. Yeah, so that's kind of the thing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":62,"time":"27:12","seconds":1632,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"So that's how you optimize things. I don't wanna talk about fine tuning models. I think it's, obviously it does help with cost, maybe that's, but it's a whole, it's own topic. You also, I mean, there's this whole topic of evolves, which you do need to dive into to make sure your thing stays good over time, and to kind of optimize it at the edges. So, but that's kind of the loop that you have to do with the Rider guy. Initially there will be some low hanging fruit on the prompts,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":63,"time":"27:42","seconds":1662,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"then you'll test it with users, with yourself, you see kind of with those special cases that don't work, there will be some low hanging ones, and then eventually you do have to write evalts, both kind of that show you how it works in production, so basically just in production, implementation of your system, and also these type of, like they're almost like unit tests,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":64,"time":"28:09","seconds":1689,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"where you effectively just run your AI, give it a known task with known data, and you'll","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":65,"time":"28:17","seconds":1697,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"essentially write assertions that it does the right recommendations at the end. Right? Yeah. This concept of eval driven development is really starting to become talked about more similar to, you know, test driven development has been talked And, I mean, you referenced it earlier, this idea of using LMs as judges, I think, is obviously very common now within certain tasks, like writing, for example, and having it be an editor for you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":66,"time":"28:43","seconds":1723,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"But in evals in particular, there's you know, an entire field and concept around it. We just wrote a large ebook about it, actually, talking about, like, basically how to effectively do LM as a judge. And I'm curious how you're applying AI as a judge to evaluate outputs during this optimization phase, and then also within your evaluations.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":67,"time":"29:04","seconds":1744,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"Yeah, you can use it in two ways. So one way how you can do it is actually not in the eval phase, but in the actual agent. So I mentioned how for your because your agent effectively is a loop, have to write some kind of exit condition, and it's some What I would start with is to just give it a number of turns, but it doesn't need to exhaust them. Obviously, if the AI says, I'm done here,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":68,"time":"29:30","seconds":1770,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"then great, right? But what you could do is that you could say, okay, my exit condition is actually just another LLM that I give the task and the output, and and maybe the intermediate steps or maybe not, and I basically just ask it like, what do you think about this? And I think we've all had this experience ourselves that if you use Chachibati or Clotter or some other chat AI like that,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":69,"time":"29:58","seconds":1798,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"if it that tells you something in high confidence and then you're like asking, are you sure? And it's like, oh no, actually, in hindsight, right? And obviously that is because they're doing the next token prediction and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":70,"time":"30:09","seconds":1809,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"they're literally in hindsight saying this is all like, doesn't make any sense. Well, it's always fun too to pit Claude against GPT or something. Right. Like, oh yeah, GPT","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":71,"time":"30:18","seconds":1818,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"did this, what do you think? Yeah, and so you can put this inside into software, right? That works. And also because it's not bullshit, right? It's actually working, as in the model now has more data, and so that can actually make a better call than the next token prediction, which brings forward the error that it made 100 token before, where the data wasn't there. It kind of gets biased, and now it gives the wrong answer,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":72,"time":"30:45","seconds":1845,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"whereas then if you give it everything at once, says, okay, obviously this was a mistake. So you can put that into your core agent loop, but also very similarly, if you write an eval where you say, okay, given this input, produce the output, you can then ask the LLM to make sure that, or like to get an eval output, whether that's a good answer or a bad answer, And the reason why that's better than doing it in the main program loop, is that you","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":73,"time":"31:16","seconds":1876,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"avoid kind of the extra cost, extra latency from the LLM call, and you just don't need it. If you get your eval to be so good that it always does the right thing in the initial turn, then you just don't need the LLMS charge kind of in your in your primary eval loop.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-73","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":74,"time":"31:30","seconds":1890,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"For teams that are maybe not doing concerted AI development yet, or at least don't have a system that they're applying, Let's say they get really excited. They're like, Malte's really got this idea down in these phases. Where would you advise them to focus within this framework as they begin to build their first agents? Where should they be spending the most time and effort? Yeah, think the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-74","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":75,"time":"31:56","seconds":1916,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"main thing, and like, it's, so first of all, it's new software, new type of software. So it's clear that most of us don't have a good intuition for it. Most of it, like if you have a slightly larger organization, there's gonna be a subset who have maybe anxiety or just overall don't feel sure about it, and the best thing to do against that is just to try it out in a non","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-75","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":76,"time":"32:24","seconds":1944,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"pressure setting. So we, for example, just did an agent hackathon for just a week, all engineers in the company, and you know, I mean, actually it had pretty good outcomes and pretty awesome stuff, but like the bigger outcome is that now everyone in the agency has built one agent in their life. And when the business tasks come, they come a perspective that they've done it before.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-76","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":77,"time":"32:47","seconds":1967,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"We do have for the AI SDK which we're building, we do have a set of examples. We you referenced my talk, my colleague Nico had a had a session about building a coaching agent from scratch, which was super well received, and which kind of is a tutorial session that kind of goes, walks you through building an agent, and it kind of shows some of the fascinating stuff that I've been mentioning today,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-77","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":78,"time":"33:14","seconds":1994,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"where he's using not the smartest model on the block, he's giving the thing three tasks, and it's not as good as Claude Code, but it's incredibly good. And now you have built that thing yourself. There's no ingredients, right? There's no, and I think that kind of builds the confidence that you can apply the same technique to other use cases. Because you're really not, you know, the thing is used like magic,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-78","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":79,"time":"33:39","seconds":2019,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"and I think I, you know, at least the magic in me creates this kinda little bit of fear response, little bit of respect for like, I'm sure they were super smart people. You know, obviously, Anthropic and and OpenAI and Google, they hire like the the smartest kids on the block. But but yeah, this turns out to be, you know, doing pretty well if you if you, you know, just do a little bit of coding. Yeah. Speaking of things that are, I think, going well, it seems very clear that Vercel has done","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-79","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":80,"time":"34:12","seconds":2052,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"a lot of cool stuff with AI already, and is on the cusp, I think, a lot more. I know plenty of our audience are familiar with your work, but I'd love to maybe give a bit of an overview before we dive a bit more into structure and security of AI agents, of what you see as the next stages of enabling developers around the world to build with AI. What what do you see as, you know, kind of where Vercel's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-80","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":81,"time":"34:43","seconds":2083,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"AI SDK is going, and and what what's the plan, I guess. Yeah. No, totally. I think we","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-81","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":82,"time":"34:49","seconds":2089,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"so definitely it's the AI SDK at the core. We're shipping version five. So it probably has g eight when this podcast comes out. There's a very late beta right now already released. You can just search X, it's very well received, people love it. It's breaking change, but of the type that people love, because we really just listen to what people were struggling with and making it better.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-82","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":83,"time":"35:16","seconds":2116,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"It really kind of drives down and kind of making the things that people want to build for agents be easier to model with with TypeScript and and and so forth. So that's at the at the core, and I again, like I would recommend using an existing example to kind of go from. We also publish the so called chat SDK, which is really a full blown chattypt like chat app. So if that's what you're building, right, if you actually have a UI,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-83","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":84,"time":"35:46","seconds":2146,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"I agree there's a bunch of funded startups that are really just forks of this template, and I think we have our first unicorn in the books, so that's a good starting point if you want to build a chat UI because that's kind of tedious, and they're all kind of you kind of want them to look the same, so they're familiar. Right? So this has all the features built in.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-84","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":85,"time":"36:05","seconds":2165,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"What we are working on is like more infrastructure offer sell great for doing this type of asynchronous programming that kind of comes up in this core of the agent, because it does it runs for quite a while, it does all these like tool calls, so you need what you would call like very reliable, very persistent compute, where obviously if this if your fifteen minute running agent fails after five, you need to you","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-85","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":86,"time":"36:41","seconds":2201,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"need to have a way to continue from from your last checkpoint. And so this is something we're heavily investing in. So we are investing in in a queue product directly on Vercel on into a workflow management, etcetera. What people should definitely check out then is our AI gateway. So that's also directly integrated with the AI SDK, and the idea is that if you use the AI gateway","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-86","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":87,"time":"37:06","seconds":2226,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"and you have it configured, you can use every AI model from any provider without any API keys. So if you want to, you know, communicate to comes out, guys give it a vibe check with your existing applications, that's literally just you just change the string from whatever model you have in there right now to a new one, and you don't have to get, you know, go to the Chinese website and and check it out, they get an API key.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-87","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":88,"time":"37:34","seconds":2254,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"Same with Gemini, it's probably even harder, but like, you know, so it's it's really just a convenience, and that's during development, like, we we we had this like playground, we gave everyone the like, low rate rate limits, and we thought we could just give everyone this for development as well. Rate limits are super low at this point, right, but that's also where it's free, because how much would you ever need yourself?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-88","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":89,"time":"37:54","seconds":2274,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"But then if you wanna go to production, you can also access all of the same models and we bill you for market rate here. So it's really just our way to get people to really try AI in a frictionless way, because it's so difficult sometimes to get to these models. And then the final point is that we do work on we have our marketplace, so there's lots of things that agents wanna do from","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-89","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":90,"time":"38:23","seconds":2303,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"from workflows, memory, browser use, etcetera, that we are all gonna build, but we make available through the agent. As a bit of a special case, we also ship to sandbox. So this is for the case where you I mean, either you're actually building a coding agent, or what happens is that your agent says, well, actually, I'm really bad at math, but I just generated","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-90","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":91,"time":"38:45","seconds":2325,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"some source code that would solve this problem, and so you need a place to run it because it's like, know, might be very insecure code, so that's what sandboxes are for, so that you can just essentially run this like one off code in a in a in a safe manner where there's no access to any of your secrets or any of that stuff. Speaking of security, there","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-91","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":92,"time":"39:05","seconds":2345,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"are plenty of valid concerns around everything from prompt injection to personal identification leakage. How do you think developers should be considering security and privacy","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-92","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":93,"time":"39:20","seconds":2360,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"as they build AI tools? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, thanks for mentioning it. It's a it's a really important topic. Like the, there are several threat vectors, problem injection is the most concerning one. Folks probably have heard about this, like it's because it goes through the news when people jailbreak JGBT, or make some model do something that it wasn't designed to.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-93","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":94,"time":"39:48","seconds":2388,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"I think these jailbreaking use cases are, they're usually referring to someone who had access to the model type prompting themselves, having relatively full access. That's kind of the last generation. Now prompt injection happens through you controlling the eyes fully in the back end, but some user control input gets in there. Right. And what we have to understand is that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-94","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":95,"time":"40:16","seconds":2416,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"there's the the I talked to them, these tools, right? Tools maybe reading from your database. When the responses go into the prompt, and the only thing stopping the model to literally take that that data as gospel for what it's supposed to do, that you kind of tell it not to. But obviously, as we know from jailbreaking, people find ways around that. That's like, we are really, it's in a way mind blowing. So the response of my tools become part of the prompt, period.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-95","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":96,"time":"40:46","seconds":2446,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"They're not in any way like jailed from, or treated in any special way. From our perspective, this is just like the rest of the prompt. And so it's really like, it's a similar situation to a SQL injection, but with SQL injection, I think we're in a world where if you follow best practices, it's not a problem. You escape the user inputs and there's zero risk. Now, obviously people get it wrong and so that's why they're still SQL injection attacks, but in principle it's a soft thing. Versus","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-96","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":97,"time":"41:22","seconds":2482,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"on prompt injection, there's nothing you can do. It just becomes part of the prompt. Okay, I shouldn't say there's nothing you can do, but you cannot make it safe as in I 100% ensure that I escaped MySQL content. It's not like that. And so we unfortunately have to put security at a different layer. So, you can sanitize the inputs, right? You can check them against malicious stuff. Very difficult, right? Because you can prompt the checks in Spanish or whatever, right? This is actually not how, but you know, I would still encourage you to do it. But then","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-97","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":98,"time":"42:03","seconds":2523,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"the other thing is, what is the worst thing that can happen? Right? Is an important question. And so like, I'll give you an example. If I if I give my ALM a tool to make a SQL query, and I and it's really meant to only search within a single tenant in my database or a single user. Right? But the part where that's enforced is part of the tool, like it's just an argument that's supposed to put in the user ID,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-98","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":99,"time":"42:41","seconds":2561,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"then I can trick that tool into making arbitrary queries. If instead I give the LM a tool that has hard coded what the conditions of the query is, then I cannot escape that. So I need to do stuff like that where I go and make my tools so constrained that even if I consider everything that is kind of part of the AI generated part of the query, if I consider all of that attacker controlled,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-99","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":100,"time":"43:10","seconds":2590,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"the attacker shouldn't get anything that they shouldn't get. Right? So so I do have to think about these like in-depth situations rather than being able to say, like, you know, this is trusted software and I can I can I I always trust everything it does? Are there other critical security and privacy considerations","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-100","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":101,"time":"43:31","seconds":2611,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"that builders should be prioritizing when creating and deploying AI agents or other AI systems, especially ones that are interacting with sensitive data, like, for example, the customer support agents","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-101","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":102,"time":"43:42","seconds":2622,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"Yeah. Or performing other actions within enterprise systems. Yeah. The other big one is just broadly data exfiltration. So this is where you try to make the model reveal data to a third party that it wasn't intended to do. Both GitLab and GitHub actually had essentially the same vulnerability in short order, where and it's actually a good example for what I was describing, right? Basically, people just put,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-102","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":103,"time":"44:13","seconds":2653,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"I think, pull requests to public repositories, which are a tech controlled, right? And into these pull requests, they just put prompt instructions, and because the you know, now becomes part of the, what the AI does, right? And so next step is, what, you know, now this AI, let's say there was code review tool, can't do that much, and first thing you can do is make a comment.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-103","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":104,"time":"44:37","seconds":2677,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"Well, what they did is they said, okay, the comments are marked down. I get to put images, and I get to put query strings in the images, and I get to put the entire source code of the repository into the query string or whatever, right? It's something like that. And so the lesson is that you have to treat the output of the LMS and trust it. We've had to do exactly this with Galileo, where","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-104","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":105,"time":"45:06","seconds":2706,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"we have these Luna two small language models we developed to enable real time guardrailing, where we will essentially apply guardrail metrics against both the inputs coming in and then the outputs as well. Yeah. Because to your point, it's you know, if something gets missed, you need to also see, hey. Is is this leaking personal identifying information? You know, is data being exfiltrated here?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-105","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":106,"time":"45:28","seconds":2728,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And you need to be able to block that risky content on the fly, or else there is major user risks around this and potential compliance vulnerabilities that you can run into if you're, you know, a regulated company. So Yeah. I love that you're thinking about this, because I think it's really crucial that you, you know, refine the rules for your AI systems without having to constantly redeploy code,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-106","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":107,"time":"45:51","seconds":2751,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"or else you put your whole system at risk. And, you know, the the magic and the beauty of an LLM is it can do things you don't expect and can solve problems without you telling it exactly what to do, but we have to account for that in the other direction as well.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-107","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":108,"time":"46:07","seconds":2767,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"No. I I honestly agree. It's like it's and, you know, it is it's really early days. Right? Like this is gonna be, I mean, across all dimensions, right? Like we'll learn much better how to build these programs, we'll learn more about security properties. I think we but we know enough today that it's certainly clear that it's something you have to pay attention to. What haven't we covered so far that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-108","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":109,"time":"46:39","seconds":2799,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"is, you know, burning in your mind right now around agents or AI or or what builders should be doing? Yeah. I think we we we did a good overview.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-109","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":110,"time":"46:47","seconds":2807,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"My like, I mean, as as a Vercel employee, what I pay a lot of attention to is kind of just what are people building, and how can I make that better at scale? The way we do that is that we go look at the older adopters and get their feedback, and then we try to build abstractions that make doing the thing that people maybe did by hand something that everyone else can do with a few lines of code. And so we're definitely in that phase where","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-110","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":111,"time":"47:19","seconds":2839,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"that's what's going on, but but that's also that's always that's that's part of the fun part. And and in parallel, think we, like, you know, we're collecting kind of use cases. Right? Like, right now, I think we have this phase where things are pretty advanced in the codec space and other other verticals are kind of, you know, interested, but like not as advanced. And so I'm I'm I'm definitely spending a lot of time finding patterns, and and happy to very excited to share those in the future. Are there particular companies that you see doing particular let me rephrase this. Are there particular companies that you think are doing excellent work, or have","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-111","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":112,"time":"48:08","seconds":2888,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"use cases that are especially exciting?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-112","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":113,"time":"48:11","seconds":2891,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"Yeah, this this is a good question. I think the way the space is, I think, set up right now is that, you know, they have the the coding space, which I think, obviously is exciting, and I think there's more innovation to come, right? I don't think we're in any way of a steady state. No. I already mentioned that I am personally very excited about AI based code review,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-113","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":114,"time":"48:37","seconds":2917,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"and we talked about security, think that's particularly interesting insight there. So I think we'll live in a world where I don't have a winner takes all market for a review agent because I I want like the security expert. And I want security expert on this topic, and then I want the world class team on this other topic, and I also want their stuff. And like, the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-114","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":115,"time":"49:05","seconds":2945,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"marginal cost for me having two is very low, right? So I really see us being in a world where you hire quote unquote all these experts, so that's gonna be a thing. Obviously, we are quite far along on the support agent side, and I think we that's certainly the most mature side on the Internet. I'm personally super excited and investing a lot of time in agentic commerce,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-115","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":116,"time":"49:35","seconds":2975,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"which I think is gonna be the first use case in the kind of consumer side that's gonna take off beyond the the chatbots, like the the the big chatbots, right, where there there is just like so much creativity to to be unlocked, for example, in in finding like, in doing coherent closing styles between various brands and so forth, where, like, AI really really really can help in maybe that's just me. I I would love to have someone buy my clothes for me.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-116","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":117,"time":"50:09","seconds":3009,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"No. I I think there are some exciting opportunities in ecommerce. No question. And speaking of exciting opportunities with AI, I'd love to give our audience the opportunity to learn a bit more about Vercel and what you're building. Where can our listeners go to keep up with the truly innovative work that Vercel is doing in the AI space? Yeah. I think we so we","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-117","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":118,"time":"50:31","seconds":3031,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"we have a few kind of things in in the space that I think people should check out. I talked a lot about the AI SDK. That's probably it's the most tangible thing. Right? Okay. And I think, you know, we have the new version coming out. If you start today, do with the beta. If you listen to this podcast when it actually comes out, probably version five is NGA, so aisdk.dev,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-118","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":119,"time":"50:52","seconds":3052,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"that's the place to go. I also mentioned chat SDK, which is like the specific, I'm gonna build a chatbot and I'm starting with one that has already all the features. So if that's what you're going for, I definitely encourage people to go. We did drop mention of v zero a couple times in this conversation, so v zero dot dev is our software that knows how to take your idea into a working full stack app,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-119","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":120,"time":"51:22","seconds":3082,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"and yeah, I think that has been revolutionizing how people collaborate in early stages of a project, and for some folks actually bring it all the way into production, but I think what we are really focusing on that is in this in this ecosystem of of kind of folks who are quote unquote tech adjacent and people who are writing code that there's a really smooth transition between them.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-120","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":121,"time":"51:46","seconds":3106,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"And yeah, otherwise, you can always find me on the x platform, the everything app, and you know, or LinkedIn if that's your vibe. Like, we're trying to be super accessible answering questions, especially if you like my number one priority is that you guys are having a easy time deploying agents to Vercel. If that doesn't work, please ping me, DM me, etcetera, because that's our number one priority that this new type of software actually has a good place to run-in the future. Yeah. I believe it's at cramforce,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-121","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":122,"time":"52:21","seconds":3141,"speaker":"Malte Ubl","text":"if I recall correctly. Yeah. I don't wanna I don't love it, but it's unfortunately way too late to change. It is memorable, so that's good. It is memorable.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-122","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":123,"time":"52:30","seconds":3150,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Well, Malte, so good to chat with you. Fantastic to catch up, and thanks so much for joining us on that podcast today. It's been a ton of fun. Thanks for having me. It was super fun. That's a wrap for today's episode. Malte, thanks again for coming on. And as we continue season two of Chain of Thought, we're committed to bringing you even more valuable conversations","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-123","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":124,"time":"52:49","seconds":3169,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"with the brightest minds in AI like Malte, even if they are occasionally throwing a little water on the fire that is our burning enthusiasm. I think that's a really important element of these conversations. And it's one of the reasons why I was particularly excited to have Malte on is that only Malte are and the team at Vercel building incredible things like their AI SDK,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-124","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":125,"time":"53:11","seconds":3191,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"vZero, to enable developers and builders and nontechnical folks around the world to build with AI, but they're also really thinking through, know, what do you need to do to observe, to evaluate, to improve your AI applications? And our our goal is to empower builders around the world, whether they're full time engineers, whether you're someone who's learning, with the the knowledge and insights you need to build the future of AI, to build your website, to build whatever it is you want, because that is the exciting","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-125","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl","episode":39,"guid":"b53d21b3-07f2-44d9-b0ac-53f80289f557","episodeTitle":"Vercel's Playbook for AI Agents: From Vibe Check to Production | Malte Ubl","publishedAt":"2025-09-10","segmentIndex":126,"time":"53:41","seconds":3221,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"part of these AI tools is the creativity that it can unlock and the speed with which it can enable you to get to that MVP. And the best way that you can help us reach more leaders like Malte is by leaving a quick rating or review on your favorite podcasting app, you know, giving us a like on YouTube if you're watching on there. It really does make a difference. It helps us have more incredible conversations like this one. And with that, thank you so much for tuning in, and we'll catch you next week with another episode of Chain of Thought. Malte, thanks again. It's been a pleasure. Thank you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/39-vercels-playbook-for-ai-agents-from-vibe-check-to-production-malte-ubl/#t-126","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"Enterprises do not work well with open source. Enterprises need a very mature solution. When you build an infrastructure company, you need real engineering. Right? You cannot wipe code. There are many factors and requirements by enterprise companies like security, stability, and everything needs to be top notch.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:24","seconds":24,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"We are back on Chain of Thought. I am your host, Conor Bronsdon. Today, we're joined by a guest that many of you may know and who I've been following for quite a while, Aramis Gritsunis. Aramis is someone you've probably seen on LinkedIn, maybe on X. If you're interested in an AI, you've absolutely seen some of his incredible charts that he shares, these graphics","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":2,"time":"0:45","seconds":45,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and the insights that he brings around everything from the observability stack for AI to how AI agents are being built at the enterprise. He makes some really unique and interesting content and has a deep background in the trenches of data and AI, having been everything from a data analyst, a machine learning engineer, to ML Ops engineer, and chief product officer at Neptune AI. Today, he is the CEO and cofounder of Swirl AI, consulting and building agentic systems for clients. He's a prolific content creator, as we've already mentioned, and he's launched his own course, the end to end AI engineering boot camp to train the next wave of builders.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:26","seconds":86,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Aurimas, it's a pleasure to have you on the show. Welcome to Chain of Thought. Hi, Conor, and thank you for having me here, and super glad to have the conversation with you. I know we'd plan to start on some more general topics, but given that you just told me that your first cohort of your end to end AI engineering bootcamp is wrapping up right now, I'd love to hear from you. How has the cohort been? How's the new","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":4,"time":"1:53","seconds":113,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"course going?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":5,"time":"1:54","seconds":114,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"I do believe that it is going really well. There are a lot of learnings that I'm bringing away from the first cohort, and I'm definitely bringing into the second one. So first learning probably is that there is a lot to cover when it comes to AI engineering, especially end to end AI engineering. And you're covering systems from the very simplest ones, Wing to Rag, Agent to Rag, Agents, World Agents, communication","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":6,"time":"2:21","seconds":141,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"protocols, deployment, observability, evaluation, right? So probably eight weeks is not enough if you are also working full time job at the same time. So now their their realization is that, yes, you can deliver the material in eight weeks, but a commitment for a learner who is actually learning those materials should probably probably be around, I don't know, six months. So","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":7,"time":"2:50","seconds":170,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"the materials should be reviewed after the boot camp ends. So I think that's one of the realizations. But in general, it is a very hands on boot camp, and it seems like people like it. And I think that everyone is bringing a lot of hands on experience from it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":8,"time":"3:10","seconds":190,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Do you think there would be a challenge with the pace of innovation and change that is occurring though in AI if you were to do that type of six month course where, oh, look, so much has changed around the frameworks you're applying, and there may be new tools you wanna bring in. How do you approach this given that you have, like, your own day to day approach to learning and then these cohorts that you're also working through?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":9,"time":"3:35","seconds":215,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"So what what I actually meant is that the course, the cohort itself would still be eight weeks, so it will not span eight months. But if you want to get deep into the topics and properly apply them in practice, you should probably take around six months and spend another four months on top of the eight weeks of the boot camp to properly learn that. Since I am kind of providing","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":10,"time":"4:00","seconds":240,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"also lifetime access to the materials, so the next cohorts, there are I update the materials, are also available for the previous learners, and go back, get up to speed with all of the changes in the industry.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":11,"time":"4:14","seconds":254,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And you've mentioned observability and evaluations as key areas within the AI space. And increasingly, I think we're seeing more and more conversation about this. And you in fact mentioned to me that you've considered starting a company in that area, but ultimately decided against it, calling the market too packed. Could you walk us through that thought process,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":12,"time":"4:37","seconds":277,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and how you were thinking about the AI infrastructure market today?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":13,"time":"4:41","seconds":281,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"So when I decided to try and look into the space, I was leaving Neptune AI. It was kind of natural for me to try and maybe build something very similar in the similar space, more in the application layer. That's why the initial decision to actually research the space. But then kind of even after a few few of the first weeks, we kind of found 20 plus companies that are doing","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":14,"time":"5:10","seconds":310,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"observability and DDoS. Right? And apart from the hyperscalers who are also doing that as well. Right? So there are quite a lot, and all of them are covering also trying try to cover end to end because it's really hard to pinpoint what will be really important in the next few months. So I think that's why all of those companies are trying to do observability and evals and experiments and prompt registries and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":15,"time":"5:39","seconds":339,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"maybe some of them routers as well. Right? So connecting the end to end traces and having end to end observability and evals of the system. So there was really no, probably no unique space to tackle that hasn't been already kind of picked up. And then probably there are also 20 companies in stealth building those solutions. And half of them are open source and available for free to host.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":16,"time":"6:05","seconds":365,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Speaking of open source, you are one of the folks who has correctly anticipated the need for agent interconnection. I've seen you talking about it for months now, maybe even back into 2024. And that space is obviously now being tackled by open standards like A2A and Agency, which have been donated to the Linux Foundation, obviously, MCP. How do you see the open source movement within AI changing the calculus for founders","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":17,"time":"6:32","seconds":392,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"who are trying to build venture backed companies?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":18,"time":"6:35","seconds":395,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"Open source. Few thoughts here. So currently, in the first place, currently it is not easy to find a company and be successful, right? So you either build something that grabs the attention really quickly and you kind of reach some sort of escape velocity within the first months once the after you start building or you have really strong backing from the sea. So you have a lot of money and then you can actually build a big team and roll enterprise operations properly roll out enterprise operations properly.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":19,"time":"7:08","seconds":428,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"Or you have distribution day one. So I guess those are the only ways how you can easily start a successful startup today. When it comes to open source, I'm a strong believer in open source, but it is really also hard to make an open source product a profitable business. Yeah. And enterprises do not work well with open source. Right? Enterprises need a very mature solution.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":20,"time":"7:45","seconds":465,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"And that's also the reason why it is hard to build infrastructure company. Because when you build an infrastructure company, you need real engineering. Right? You cannot wipe code because there are many, many factors and requirements by enterprise companies like security, stability, being able to deploy on prem, say the support that comes with it, enterprise features.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":21,"time":"8:14","seconds":494,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"And everything needs to be top notch. And then for some of the companies also need the ability to do hyperscaling on your own side because they are big companies. They might be ingesting a lot of data. And if your infrastructure is not specifically meant for that, then you will not be able to succeed","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":22,"time":"8:34","seconds":514,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"in enterprise space. So do you see this differentiation between the capital rich folks or the folks who have at least raised a lot of capital to take on infrastructure companies, kind of taking a very different approach from people who are, as you put it, vibe coding their way to success and maybe using their own built in distribution to try to quickly generate revenue.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":23,"time":"8:58","seconds":538,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"How do you see these dynamics playing out in the market? Yeah, we'd love to explore that with you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":24,"time":"9:05","seconds":545,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"So when it comes to vibe coded tools and products, I think this can mostly be successful in b two c type of products because you're quickly capturing attention with some sort of a new idea from the broad public. And when it comes to building enterprise products, I still think that VC backed companies with large amounts of cash will be the winners. Unless you really build something really, really great really fast, and then you get a lot of money, and then you hire hundreds of engineers to refactor your vibe coded","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":25,"time":"9:42","seconds":582,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I don't know. What what's your what's your take on this? Good question. I I think you're spot on that it really depends on the space. Every time I see someone trying to vibe code their way to a business solution, I just assume, maybe unfairly, that it's not gonna scale. That, okay, sure, this may work for a certain DevTools segment, then or or or maybe a a single","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":26,"time":"10:06","seconds":606,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"iCPU, if you have the ability to just kind of put a credit card in. But once you start going up against competitors in larger deals, and there's actual frameworks being applied about, okay, like, how's your security, how are your security and compliance protocols? Are you meeting our needs in these specific areas? Do we have the role based access control we need? All the things that enterprises, or even just larger scale ups are looking for,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":27,"time":"10:29","seconds":629,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I would expect you to see some some major challenges. And I do think there's a potentially viable path, we're maybe seeing this play out a bit, Vibe code your way to a cool demo, try to raise money off that cool demo, and then actually hire engineers to create the whole thing. And I wouldn't be surprised if there's quite a few companies doing that today. I'm not gonna name names. But that also creates a lot of hidden risks for founders","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":28,"time":"10:55","seconds":655,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"who choose this kind of high intensity path where it may help you get to that raise and maybe that's what you need, but there's a lot of pressure that comes with that as well.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":29,"time":"11:06","seconds":666,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"But I guess if a really strong engineer is doing vibe coding, and usually we are not doing vibe coding, we are doing assisted coding in Fair. Efficient way, then maybe this kind of a tool coded in this kind of way could actually succeed. Right? You can build something good and you hire a team quickly once you get VC money and then you scale out. I think it's a viable approach if you have that engineering talent within the If founding","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":30,"time":"11:33","seconds":693,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"you if you are coming in and you're a nontechnical founder and you're expecting to be able to just vibe your code vibe code your way to initial success, I would be hesitant because I feel like you'll induce, or you'll introduce so many issues. Because to your point, I think you need to treat it like a partner. You can't simply just say yes to everything. It's very easy to refactor","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":31,"time":"11:56","seconds":716,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"things in the wrong direction and introduce a ton of long term challenges. So yeah, I do agree with you, though. If someone comes in and has technical expertise and understands what they're doing and they want to use AI as a partner today, I think that's a fantastic use case for it. And I think we'll see, and are already seeing, but we'll continue to see, a lot of","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":32,"time":"12:19","seconds":739,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"folks take on founding with AI as a key partner in their initial build out, their demo. And then I think the challenge will be, okay, how do you translate that to, we're a scaling company? Obviously there's a million people who've written books on that. I'm not gonna try to pretend I'm Paul Graham and say, oh, here's the approach you wanna take with But the inception point of going from","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":33,"time":"12:43","seconds":763,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"idea to MVP feels like it needs to just move so fast today. And I think it's a big opportunity for founders, but of course brings a lot of pressure as you start bringing in those VC dollars and another backing. Even if you have Raised and, you know, a successful vertical app, maybe even get to a million to an ARR, there's also this copy risk that's being introduced of, oh,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":34,"time":"13:09","seconds":789,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"this could be copied easily now. It's a lot easier to just say, oh, great. Like, let's let's take it what our our rivals doing, and we're gonna do the same thing. How do you create that defensible moat? That's where my mind's at now of It feels like having a clever idea, I mean, or an early traction. I mean, obviously it's never been enough on its own. You still have to execute. There's many things that have to go right.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":35,"time":"13:30","seconds":810,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"But I wonder if the moat of technology is actually less defensible today.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":36,"time":"13:37","seconds":817,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"It is. I guess it is. And especially you you touched this point previously, like when you're doing an enterprise sale, right? So it's not like you're just coming in solo, a single company and trying to sell. Enterprise sales process is a very kind of known, has very known patterns where you would be benchmarked against ten hours and the vest would be chosen,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":37,"time":"14:04","seconds":844,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"And then there are a few risks, either you're already entering a very hot market. So then how do you become better than others? Like even if you, like no one will pay just because you are a known person, right? They will pay because the product is good and better than ours. We have, need to have all of those features that we need and implement it in a more efficient way, way than your","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":38,"time":"14:30","seconds":870,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"competitors. And now when this copy risk exists, then a new product can very quickly be kind of coded. You could say white coded, but if you have a very strong engineering team with AI at their side, so maybe five strong engineers, you know, it's very easy to build even, for example, observability infra tool. Right? If you're a really great engineer and you're not the a single engineer in the company and then you use AI to some extent, you can very quickly build a observability and eval tool that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":39,"time":"15:07","seconds":907,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"rivals tools like Langsmith, for example, or Langfuse. Right. Or yours. Not I don't know. I I never used Galileo,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":40,"time":"15:15","seconds":915,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"but maybe Try it out. Let's know what you think. Yeah. So I guess let's make this practical then. If you were advising another founder today and they have an idea and they're like, how should I get started? How should I approach this? You know, we've talked a bit about a couple of these flash points that are now occurring where it's easier to get to MVP, it's maybe easier to copy. What would your advice to that founder be,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":41,"time":"15:43","seconds":943,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"who is coming in with a unique idea, trying to think through how should they should approach it?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":42,"time":"15:48","seconds":948,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"So I think this is also how many VCs think, is that it's not all about the product. Right? It's very it's it's a lot about the founder herself or himself. And what this really means is that can that person very quickly pivot and adjust to the changes in the market? So usually the first idea is not a great idea. So I would really try and maybe figure out how good their pivoting ability is.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":43,"time":"16:21","seconds":981,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"Then this is the first one. The next one is how do you sell the product? How do you market the product? Because that's probably even more important than the product itself, at least at the very beginning, right? The distribution and reach is key. So I wouldn't even be too strict on the idea that the person is trying to build and rather see which part of the market","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":44,"time":"16:45","seconds":1005,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"those founders are targeting and maybe looking a little bit back into their histories, what they have been doing before, and how they think about the industry in the first place.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":45,"time":"16:58","seconds":1018,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I completely agree. I'll say my most successful agent investments so far have both been instances where the founders have pivoted and said, we didn't quite have this right initially, but we saw the potential of how smart and driven and thoughtful these people were, and they've found the path. And I think that's true of most folks who aren't doing investing, is the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":46,"time":"17:23","seconds":1043,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"founder first. Who are they? Will they actually take you down this path? Do they have the the grit and determination and the, you know, mental ability to think outside the box, but then also bring order to the chaotic ideas that they are putting out in the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":47,"time":"17:40","seconds":1060,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"And, no, the real kind of decision points probably come once you actually put out your first idea into a market, and then you get the feedback, then you get maybe some paying customers,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":48,"time":"17:50","seconds":1070,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and then you kind of figure out what needs to be done next. I think that's one of the really exciting parts for a lot of entrepreneurs in the space right now, which is that it's so much easier to get to MVP and start getting that feedback faster. So you can say, Oh, I did this completely wrong. Or, Oh, great. We've got something here. Let's see where this goes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":49,"time":"18:09","seconds":1089,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And it's creating this intense market pressure for speed, both within larger companies and for entrepreneurs. How have you integrated this focus on teaching what's important and this idea of focus, which I would argue is increasingly important in a world where there's just so much happening and so much information and the cost of generating code or generating content is drastically decreasing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":50,"time":"18:40","seconds":1120,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"How do you bring that into your course and your your work as you help advise and and understand what folks should be focusing on.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":51,"time":"18:51","seconds":1131,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"So my course is really focusing on fundamentals. So it's not tool focused course, even though we are using popular tools, of course. But taking a simple example, like I'm using Lang graph throughout the entire build out of, let's say, the capstone project. But at the same time, I'm not using Lang Smith. I'm using instructor for structured outputs, and I'm using instructor","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":52,"time":"19:21","seconds":1161,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"wrappers within inside of LangRefNotes. So it's kind of teaching people that structured outputs are important. This is how you can achieve that. This is how it works. You shouldn't rely on those abstractions that hide the structured outputs that are actually achieved. Also, not using tool bindings, use the frameworks. Right? Actually prompting the LLM itself by produce tool suggestions,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":53,"time":"19:52","seconds":1192,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"by giving tool descriptions, etcetera. So anyway, so the main point is that the course is specifically about teaching fundamentals and real infrastructural patterns along the way. For example, observability is being taught day one, and then we move with observability and evals throughout the eight weeks. And I teach how to evaluate each different system. Yeah. So I think fundamentals are really important.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":54,"time":"20:20","seconds":1220,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"Now we are also seeing with the flop of GPT-five, I think it is a flop now already. Right? It's not as great as promised. Yeah. So I think that this iterative improvement of LLMs is happening, is starting to happen. Right? So AGI might not be so close. And I think the old old which are old things which are two years old are still very important in building agentic systems. Properly understanding how to context engineer.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":55,"time":"20:51","seconds":1251,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"And by the way, context engineering, I think, is a very, very important topic and very often be overlooked. Than learning how to build agentic systems, because it's not as easy as it looks like when you're building demos. You're not doing any context engineering usually. And, yeah. So these fundamental things, I think, are very important.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":56,"time":"21:14","seconds":1274,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Are there particular gaps that you're noticing in the experiences or fundamental skills of folks who are either trying to grow their skills working with you or people who are out in the market today? You mentioned observability and evaluation. Obviously, we share the viewpoint. Those are crucial and need to be day one instrumentation pieces that continue throughout the entire life cycle of your AI application or agent.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":57,"time":"21:40","seconds":1300,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"But I'm curious if there are particular gaps that you're noticing out in the market today where people aren't really paying attention to fundamental skills.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":58,"time":"21:49","seconds":1309,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"So it depends on what you, which part you're referring to. Is it the boot camp itself? Because the boot camp is naturally not for the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":59,"time":"21:58","seconds":1318,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"top, top engineers. Yeah. Think I'm looking more broadly here of like, like, what are you seeing in the market as far as potential gaps?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":60,"time":"22:05","seconds":1325,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"Definitely, evals are is still a gap, right? So this is probably it's not an emerging topic. It's already an old topic, but not everyone is adopting the practice of eval driven development yet, even though it is crucial in building these systems. Then I think overreliance on some orchestrator orchestrators is bringing some problems eventually once the systems are starting to are starting to mature because then you need to go back to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":61,"time":"22:40","seconds":1360,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"base software engineering without using any wrappers. So people are taking too long to ship in some cases. I think the first MVPs are not being rolled out soon enough. The human feedback is not getting brought back into the system soon enough. Yeah. Definitely business understanding, people are not people building those systems are not always very close to business, and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":62,"time":"23:10","seconds":1390,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"they want to build something shiny and adopting some cool tech, right, but not necessarily solving a business problem. And then projects and products start being deprioritized because we are not showing any business value. Teams are building agentic systems in the basement for","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":63,"time":"23:33","seconds":1413,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"five months, then they come out and the system doesn't solve a real business. Mean, like we just said, you have to just get out there faster and start getting that feedback. Yeah. Or else you're creating a risk point for yourself that you could be building in a silo. Most companies don't succeed that way. One","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":64,"time":"23:49","seconds":1429,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"more thing. So I think that we are still early in MCP days, and sometimes I think MCP is being overused. It brings most value when you have remote MCP servers, right? But I don't think that we are, at any point we are not yet there where we can actually utilize them remote MCP servers properly, at least without significant engineering. Yeah. So sometimes just using tools within your code is also a good idea. You don't need to have MCP for everything.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":65,"time":"24:21","seconds":1461,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. You don't always have to be using the new hotness. Doesn't have to be shiny. Sometimes fundamentals are fundamentals for a reason. You mentioned context engineering as one point of emphasis in the market today. I think there's been quite a bit of conversation around, I mean, everyone, the folks who are saying, Oh, prompt engineering is the way, and a lot of folks think, Yeah, I mean, it's a short term solve.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":66,"time":"24:47","seconds":1487,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And then vibe coding and context engineering. There's been all these terms thrown about and different approaches that have been discussed as this is the new approach that we should be taking on here. And I'm curious from your perspective, you talk about context engineering as important and using a system focused lens. What would be your advice to engineers who are maybe under utilizing this and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":67,"time":"25:15","seconds":1515,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"or haven't explored it yet?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":68,"time":"25:18","seconds":1518,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"Okay. So the first very important point is probably that I when I was thinking prompt engineering, I was always thinking context engineering from day one. Because if you are building agentic systems, you cannot build agentic systems without context engineering. Right. So for agent agent builders, context engineering equals prompt engineering, because you need to store the actions somewhere, you need to compress the actions because the context window is just exploding if you are building systems of multi turn conversations.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":69,"time":"25:53","seconds":1553,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"I don't even have like, okay, I I do have suggestions on what needs to be implemented while performing context engineering, but if you are building a multi turn agenting system, you have felt the pain, I believe. Like the agent running for too long, the context window exploding to a few 100,000 tokens per single run. And then you need to you know, have maybe five runs","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":70,"time":"26:23","seconds":1583,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"each 200,000 tokens for input, then it takes fifty seconds to complete and that's a chatbot. Yeah. So where to focus is probably the main ideas that I love in context engineering is the ability to compress the conversation history, I think, because that is definitely being able to also discard unnecessary actions or store them in so called scratch pad where you can later on pick it","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":71,"time":"26:59","seconds":1619,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"up from. Maybe writing all of the state files to the disk, but then picking only what you really need for specific nodes in your agent system as needed. Then when it when it comes to tool usage, it's just regular patterns. We cannot avoid adding those additional tokens inside of your prompt because if you don't do that, then your tool calls will start erroring out. So you will not be able to properly","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":72,"time":"27:27","seconds":1647,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"retrieve","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":73,"time":"27:29","seconds":1649,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"structured outputs correctly. Right? Yeah. Tool optimization has been a big area of focus for us, I'll say, when we've been looking at agentic reliability and observability is understanding how can we better suggest opportunities to improve tool usage within apps, because it's a super common problem, as you're alluding to here, like one of the key places what'll fall is like an agent will just try to use the wrong tool over and over, or it will get stuck in this loop of trying to solve this problem without going back to first principles and thinking it through. So, yeah, there's there's some really obvious failure patterns to address there.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-73","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":74,"time":"28:05","seconds":1685,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"And and what kind of low hanging fruits do you have to suggest to the audience?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-74","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":75,"time":"28:13","seconds":1693,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. Well, I'll say check out galileo.ai, and we can maybe maybe we'll maybe we'll contribute a we'll contribute a lecture here at your next boot camp, actually. I'm happy to happy to chat more about that. That'd be that'd be fun. Of course, let's do it. Yeah, we've been doing stuff around tool error optimization in terms of the platform. So basically looking to see if we can identify","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-75","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":76,"time":"28:36","seconds":1716,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"from an agent graph or from a project with a bunch of traces, like, okay, what's consistently happening here if we aggregate these different traces together? Can we identify and basically use our inference engine on the back end to suggest fixes to agents where we can say, oh, we're seeing this tool issue. Maybe, for example, your application is supposed to be booking you a trip, and it is looking at, you know, trivago and Expedia, and it's always trying to use trivago first even if it fails, instead it's not thinking about it's, you know, secondary option to book a hotel.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-76","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":77,"time":"29:14","seconds":1754,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"How do we change the weights in that? So, we've been doing some of that through, like, automation within the platform through the what we we're calling our insights engine, where we're basically feeding the kind of evals dataset that's people have established in the platform. So the their metrics they've created, the traces, their logs, annotations they may have,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-77","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":78,"time":"29:34","seconds":1774,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"into our our judge, and the judge is then suggesting stuff. And then you can provide human feedback on the suggestions. So it's working pretty well so far. I think there's a lot more potential there, honestly. We're just scratching the surface. It's not something where I it's like, I think our long term goal would be something where it's creating this automated feedback loop where it's just like, oh, yes, let me go","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-78","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":79,"time":"29:53","seconds":1793,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Vibe code my app through this. I'm a little not Vibe code, Vibe improve, I guess. So was just like, okay, great. Like, here's the eval, here's the improvement. Let me take a reader really quick. Cool. Great. Check. But that's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-79","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":80,"time":"30:04","seconds":1804,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"the longer term dream, I think. So this is almost like a automated","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-80","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":81,"time":"30:11","seconds":1811,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"error analysis, right? Yeah, we're trying to automate recalls analysis for errors. Good question. And it's not a 100% solved yet by any means, but we're starting to make some real strides with it. And you'll you'll see us start to do it through an MCP lens too, where you can access this, like, these different catalogs of different error types and, you know, pull in it through MZP and just do it through IDE too, where it's like, oh, here, great. We ran went and ran the eval. Here's a suggestion.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-81","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":82,"time":"30:41","seconds":1841,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"You know, awesome. Let me approve it. But that's all that's all very much on our our beta testing side of things right now. So Because the because I would say that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-82","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":83,"time":"30:50","seconds":1850,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"the observability tooling in general is great. Right? But it's not the hardest problem to solve. Right? When you're building agentic systems, the hardest problem to solve is to actually create those eval data sets. Yeah. Really, really hard. So from what I hear is here that you're not only targeting the actual improvements to the system given the eval data set, but also somehow","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-83","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":84,"time":"31:17","seconds":1877,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"clustering the traces themselves.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-84","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":85,"time":"31:20","seconds":1880,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, we've got a couple different ways we're doing it. Part of it's through just like new views. So we have like an aggregated graph view, for example, where you can look at like multiple traces at once and kind of see, I wish I had a good example handy right now, but you can just see like, okay, what paths did the agent take throughout this? How much are they overlaying? Where are their problems?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-85","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":86,"time":"31:44","seconds":1904,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And then we're trying to do that in a much more automated way, as you point out. So I'm really interested to see where it goes. It's the stuff that gets me excited about the platform. It's like, okay, observability is a base layer, get that right, okay, and then try to do evals really well, and then ideally that should feed an improvement mechanism. And right now where that improvement mechanism is AI engineers going in and kind of tuning things themselves, but okay, the more we can do to just make it really easy for them to go, oh, yes, great. We see this. It's it's identified very quickly. We can go solve it very quickly. I think that's where this whole","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-86","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":87,"time":"32:20","seconds":1940,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"evaluation and durability space is going to really expand to driving improvement.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-87","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":88,"time":"32:25","seconds":1945,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"I agree completely. Like, this is really the piece of a puzzle which is currently kind of missing because just It's nebulous. Yeah. Yeah. Too much, too much hours are going in into figuring out the eval data sets, like 70% of the entire project sometimes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-88","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":89,"time":"32:44","seconds":1964,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. We're we're getting faster at it, and I think our the fact that we have our our Luna two small language models fueling some of our, like, eval metrics. I I mean, the the challenge with those right now is maybe not by the time this episode comes out, but, like, for the moment, like, we have to fine tune those models to get them really accurate, but they're much cheaper and faster than if we're using an LLM call all across the board. So you can do this much more cheaply and much more effectively.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-89","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":90,"time":"33:10","seconds":1990,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I'll tell you, though, Adam may have to edit this out depending on when this episode comes out. Like, are going to go live with anyone can just fine tune their metrics using SLMs on platform, which will make things go way faster, hopefully. But this is all, again, is the edge of the platform. We're like, oh, we're not quite done with it yet. We're hopefully figuring it out. So that's that's the exciting stuff. That's the fun stuff. And what is your take on","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-90","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":91,"time":"33:36","seconds":2016,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"all of these OpenAI open source models coming out now so you can actually pick that one up and fine tune it? I'm a big fan. Yeah. I I think I think that we should","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-91","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":92,"time":"33:46","seconds":2026,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I'm I'm very pro open source models. And in part because, like, I think if we don't open source most models, we're gonna have a standpoint where a couple of companies are just gonna monopolize in the long run. And I think that could be really negative for the broader economic picture and broader ecosystem of software. So I I think the the opportunity with smaller models to do more specialized tasks and for fine tune open source models is huge. And I'll say, like our Luna two models were originally based off of like LAMA models that we took and redid and fine tuned. So","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-92","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":93,"time":"34:21","seconds":2061,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"yeah, I think the feature idea of having a model that is cheap to run and can run on your own hardware and really enable people to have cheap, excellent inference that is fine tuned to their tasks is very exciting to me because while I know it's not gonna necessarily, it's not gonna solve AGI, right? Much more reasoning, much more inference, way more GPUs thrown at that problem.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-93","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":94,"time":"34:47","seconds":2087,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I think it can tactically solve a lot of problems as long as it is fed initially by these broader frontier models, where we're spending all this money to get them right. But So Yeah. I don't know. What's your take? Yeah. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-94","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":95,"time":"34:59","seconds":2099,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"I believe that there's a need for fine tuning even in agentic systems. We need to fine tune for specific routes, but there's no buts, but I think that these open source models by OpenAI will be a great kind of leap forward for all of this research. Yeah. I mean, even thinking, getting my hands on one of those NVIDIA sparks, maybe putting it on my table and playing around open source myself.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-95","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":96,"time":"35:31","seconds":2131,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Also say we've been oh, sorry. Go ahead. Go ahead. Yeah. No. No. I'd say so we we did this. I don't if you saw our research about our agent leaderboard. So we did an original version of this back in February, and then we just did an update recently, basically looking at tool selection quality for different LLMs across a variety of agentic scenarios that were aligned towards enterprises.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-96","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":97,"time":"35:54","seconds":2154,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So it was like, okay, here's like a finance scenario. Here's banking, healthcare, insurance, telecoms. The idea being, okay, let's try to actually identify, like, these LMs effective within customer support agents that have to be very specialized for these different areas? And so we looked at both tool selection quality and then action completion with the idea of being like, did they actually complete what you want and solve your problem?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-97","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":98,"time":"36:19","seconds":2179,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And honestly, one of the most impressive models we looked and most recent round was Kimi K2, which came out a few weeks ago as we're recording this for Moonshot. And yeah, like Quen 2.5, they're 72B, and then Kimi K2 both did really well in our analysis. So I think there is a big opportunity for open source models to feed a lot of this. And I'll say, probably by the time this episode comes out, we'll definitely have added these new open source OpenAI models too, because it's very exciting to see that ecosystem catching up. I know Gemini and Claude and GBT are gonna jump ahead again, but it's like, okay, let's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-98","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":99,"time":"36:57","seconds":2217,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"make sure that we're not leaving the boats behind, so to speak. Well, I've taken us completely off track here as we talk about agents, but it's been a ton of fun here. I do wanna ask you a bit more about how you're thinking through the future of the space. Obviously we've been talking about open source a bit. We've been talking about the fundamental skills an AI engineer needs.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-99","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":100,"time":"37:19","seconds":2239,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"But honestly, one of the things that really made me wanna have you on the show is how good the graphics are that you make on LinkedIn. And you make these complex AI concepts accessible. And I'd love to understand, as you peek into the future and think about what's ahead, what are the big misunderstood ideas or emerging trends that you're excited to showcase to the community next? What are you thinking about?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-100","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":101,"time":"37:46","seconds":2266,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"So there are a few areas that I think are underrepresented, especially in content creation. And one of them maybe is a step back, but it is data engineering for AI applications. So connecting the data layer with the actual application layer because, no, there are there's a lot of talks. There are a lot of talks about data engineering being kind of left behind, even though data engineers are doing most of the work to make these systems actually run.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-101","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":102,"time":"38:19","seconds":2299,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"And then there is no supporting content up on that. So maybe I was thinking maybe I should actually step into that direction a bit because talking just about agentic system designs, everyone is doing today, right? It's really, really, becomes, it's becoming really, really boring.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-102","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":103,"time":"38:39","seconds":2319,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. Okay. Well, let's, let's dive in there a bit. I mean, personally, I'll say one of the things I've thought about with data engineering is that I almost feel like we are just recreating names for subtasks of what data engineering does with so much of what we've been saying about AI for the last year. What's your take on data engineering and what needs to be done to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-103","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":104,"time":"39:04","seconds":2344,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"make sure it's getting the attention deserves and also that it's being effective?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-104","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":105,"time":"39:09","seconds":2349,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"It has always always been a problem. I I was data engineer in my career for four or five years, I think, also leading data engineering teams. And even back then, machine learning was taking the center stage. Data engineering was never. So it's either system design or machine learning or now AI and AI engineering. Yeah. But now I I don't agree that I don't agree with people who are saying that AI engineering is just data engineering. That's not true. Data engineering is about","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-105","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":106,"time":"39:41","seconds":2381,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"piping the data to where it needs to live, and AI engineering is about building those agentic system designs on top of the data that you have. So it's definitely not the same discipline. How to keep data engineering in the spotlight? I don't know. To be honest, I don't know. This is a long problem that we are facing and no one is really end up talking about data engineering enough.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-106","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":107,"time":"40:09","seconds":2409,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"Maybe education, just general education, maybe just running boot camps about it because people are interested in data engineering. For some reason, it's simply not taking the spotlight because it will never be hot, unfortunately. Data engineering is not the money machine that VCs are looking. That","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-107","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":108,"time":"40:30","seconds":2430,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"that does leave it a little out of the spotlight. It's true. You've gotta find that money machine to to really get the attention you deserve.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-108","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":109,"time":"40:38","seconds":2438,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"Yeah. Because the data data engineers are saving costs. We are not really producing revenue","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-109","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":110,"time":"40:43","seconds":2443,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"in a sense. Okay. So we need to need to more clearly show, I guess, more graphs showing the money saved. But help, maybe. But yeah. But but money saved is the money saved is also not hot. Money made is hot. Right? No. It's really not hot today at all. Looking at the burn rate of some of these companies, it's like, what? Yeah. Alright. What what other predictions do you have about let's call it the the next six months of AI. AI? I don't want to make you think too far out because it starts to get really blurry at that point. But","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-110","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":111,"time":"41:12","seconds":2472,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"as you think through this massive wave of agentic conversations people are having, and I would argue some of the overhype that's happening on agents. Because I'll say personally, I'm kind of with Carpathian, this idea of like, yeah, this is the year of agents, but also it's gonna be a decade of agents. Like, we're not solving this tomorrow. But what are the things you're thinking about, though, as we head towards this next stage of AI development?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-111","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":112,"time":"41:37","seconds":2497,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"So six months a few months ago, I would have said that six months is really a very, very short amount of time. Like, a lot of things could happen, but now we are seeing the slowdown of improvement of LLM. So I think less and less stuff will be happening as we move forward in this amount of time. So in general, I think that what we will not see is definitely we will not see any big leaps in TI.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-112","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":113,"time":"42:07","seconds":2527,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"I think what we will not see, we will not see distributed multi agent systems in production yet, even though everyone is talking about A2A and how it will change the world because companies will start exposing agents as services. Not not in six months. I don't I don't believe in that. It's too hard to build multi agent systems for various reasons, but one of them being just regular observability.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-113","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":114,"time":"42:37","seconds":2557,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"It's it's really hard to instrument a distributed system, especially when it is long running agentic systems behind those distributed services. So what I'm really looking forward to is coding agency, coding CLI agents improving, Because we are already quite good. I and I I mean the agents that do not require writing any line of code. Like call call code for Yeah. Exactly. Because we are already quite good. So I'm really looking forward on how this develops. And I had a chat with a very brilliant engineer","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-114","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":115,"time":"43:16","seconds":2596,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"a few days ago about this idea of writing specifications and allowing your agents to write your code and then, you know, throwing really making microservices ideas come to life where code is useless. Right? You can throw it away and you can just rebuild your entire service with the next iteration. So I'm looking forward on the next iteration of these coding agents because I think there's something here, and it will definitely change","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-115","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":116,"time":"43:46","seconds":2626,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"software engineering as it is. Yeah. But the industry is now I think it will start moving slower, so six months is not that long the time frame. Do you think we need to basically take a new leap in scaling as far as massively","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-116","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":117,"time":"44:00","seconds":2640,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"more amounts of energy, tons more GPUs, to kind of take the next step? Or do you think this is an inherent challenge with AI hardware today, and there's a need for a non transistor based architecture, or a new architecture? What's your kind of take on what's gonna get us past this, maybe a little bit of a wall we're hitting?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-117","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":118,"time":"44:19","seconds":2659,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"So we need to take one of two sides, Right? Either you believe that LLMs will allow us to kind of move forward through this barrier that we are facing, or you need to take a side that you will even need a different kind of architecture in on the model side, which will not be LLM based. So I'm rather on the second one. I think LLMs will not bring us to AGI, it might not even be hardware problem.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-118","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":119,"time":"44:45","seconds":2685,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"It might be the actual model problem, model architecture problem. Does it mean that this new breakthrough model architecture that we will find will require as much of compute as we currently are building for? I don't know. But I think that we would need this kind of competing file power for inference anyway. It's even with these kinds of models that we currently have.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-119","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":120,"time":"45:13","seconds":2713,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"Agree. What's your take? That's a good question.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-120","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":121,"time":"45:17","seconds":2717,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I think I agree. I think we I think it's two I would I would name three challenges. So one, I mentioned energy. I think we're gonna need simply a lot more chips. I think we're gonna see a barrier in the next year or two where we just realize, hey, we need more nuclear reactors. We need more, you know, energy sources here. Like, we simply can't build the amount of data centers we want to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-121","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":122,"time":"45:43","seconds":2743,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and have the type of power grid we want to with our current setup. So I think there's a massive investment needed there. We're starting to see that with Microsoft, for example, investing in reopening the recently shuttered 3 Mile Island reactor. We're seeing folks talking about small nuclear, we're seeing people talking about investing in natural gas in different areas, we're seeing solar being brought up, but I think that's a limiting factor we have to consider, and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-122","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":123,"time":"46:10","seconds":2770,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"outside of the hyperscalers, I don't see talked about as much as maybe it should be. Maybe it's because it's not really our problems if we're not on a hyperscaler, we're not on a data center, but like, we should be cognizant of that, and that obviously aligns to the secondary problem of like, yeah, we're we are still gonna need more inference. We are still gonna need more chips. We're still we're gonna need,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-123","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":124,"time":"46:27","seconds":2787,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"you know, more data centers. And I I definitely think that's an inherent challenge today with LLMs, but I've always been a skeptic skeptic about this idea of getting to AGI just by brute forcing with LLMs. And I look forward to be prove being proven wrong. We'll we'll see, but I I agree with you. I think we're gonna need to fundamentally make some change with the architecture.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-124","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":125,"time":"46:51","seconds":2811,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"The current LLM movement is incredibly useful. SLMs are very useful. We've made massive advances, but I I don't I mean, if we if we look at the basics of it, we're not truly creating thinking machines the way that I think has been built at times. Like, we're creating machines that are doing fantastic things for prediction and have incredible memories and data sets and do unique things, but","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-125","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":126,"time":"47:20","seconds":2840,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"mostly they're predicting what should go next versus, I think, creating that new. And so it it just feels to me it's like to make a true breakthrough here and have a fundamentally different paradigm, we'll take just that, like a a new way of exploring the problem. We're gonna create a lot of business value. We're gonna create really interesting systems out of this. We can solve a lot of problems.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-126","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":127,"time":"47:45","seconds":2865,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"But I, I don't know that we're going to truly redefine how thinking works. And that to me feels like it is a different step. So I guess it's also a question of how do you define AGI? I think an LLM, I don't know, GPT six, or Gemini six, or whatever, could become a strong enough knowledge worker that it can just solve most business problems that are kind of inherent today? Sure. I think that's that's possible in the current architecture. And I think that's a huge amount of value and worth shooting for. But I don't think it's gonna create a new model of physics, I guess is how I'd put it. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-127","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":128,"time":"48:23","seconds":2903,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"There's by the way, there's one more area that I'm kind of think that it could work, but I forgot to mention. So self improving agents, right? So agents still kind of seem like they are the way to go, at least short term, as with the LLMs that we do have, right? How do we make the agent rewrite its own code? And I think this is where we also will need a lot of inference,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-128","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":129,"time":"48:51","seconds":2931,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"and this is where a lot of the nuclear reactors should be going into. But how do we make agent? So we can make it the right new agents upon new agents like evolutionary algorithms do, right? Yeah. That's that's one potential. But I think this will be an area of research, active research in the next few years, at least two years maybe. Not six months, a little bit later.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-129","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":130,"time":"49:16","seconds":2956,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"I'm definitely looking forward to this one. Yeah. I think it's really easy,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-130","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":131,"time":"49:21","seconds":2961,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"because there's so many exciting things happening in this space, particularly the last couple of years, to expect that, oh, we're gonna solve this immediately. It's gonna be solved tomorrow. And in some cases, I've been surprised by the problems that are being solved, but agent swarms, and again, maybe I'll be proven wrong on this by the time this episode comes out,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-131","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":132,"time":"49:37","seconds":2977,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"it feels like truly having self improving, self growing agent swarms that are very successful for solving an actual enterprise's problems, not doing a cool demo, it's gonna take a bit of time still to get right, because there are these inherent challenges that we're talking about, can vibe credit our way to our demo on this. We can quickly pull something together. But actually solving a business problem in a way that makes money is a different challenge entirely. So Aurimas, I just want to say thank you so much for joining me today. It's been such a fun conversation. And I really appreciated you","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-132","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":133,"time":"50:07","seconds":3007,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"kind of bringing us through your thought process and talking about so many of the things you're thinking about. Where can listeners go to in order to follow you and learn more about all the great stuff you're creating and thinking about?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-133","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":134,"time":"50:21","seconds":3021,"speaker":"Aurimas Griciūnas","text":"So you can find me on LinkedIn, You can find me on X, and you can also find me on my newsletter, which is newsletter.swirlai.com. And very soon, I will be start also starting posting out YouTube videos, so you can also start checking my YouTube channel, which is still empty. It's already there for more than a year, I think. It's still empty. So in the upcoming month, for sure, there will will be some fresh videos coming in. Fantastic.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-134","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":135,"time":"50:53","seconds":3053,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Well, I am excited to watch those, and I highly recommend to all of our listeners, definitely follow RMS on whatever platforms you're active on. His work's deeply valuable, and his his thought process is, I think, excellent. And while you're at it, make sure you're subscribed to the Chain of Thought podcast on whatever platform you're interested in here. Whether that's LinkedIn, you follow Galileo or Chain of Thought podcasts,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-135","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas","episode":38,"guid":"264fa324-c5d3-4a16-9839-3267902030bb","episodeTitle":"From Demo to Defensibility: How to Build an AI Business that Lasts | Aurimas Griciūnas","publishedAt":"2025-08-27","segmentIndex":136,"time":"51:16","seconds":3076,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Spotify. If you're listening to Apple Apple Podcasts, we love our rating or review. Makes a makes a huge difference. If you're on YouTube right now, you can see Armis and I's smiling faces as we discuss the future of AGI and everything else. And just wanted to say thank you so much, everyone, for listening. And and Armis, thank you so much for joining us today. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for having me.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/38-from-demo-to-defensibility-how-to-build-an-ai-business-that-lasts-aurimas-grici-nas/#t-136","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"These generic metrics are most of the time not helpful at all. They're way too generic. They don't necessarily correlate with actual failures in your AI product, and they don't actually mean anything. And it's it can be extremely destructive because, like, you know, people get seduced into this. Like, okay. I could just plug in this dashboard to my system and get this dashboard of metrics and can tell me, like, how I'm doing. And then you kind of have this illusion of, oh, like, I checked the box. I'm doing evals, and I am monitoring my system. In reality, like, you're not monitoring anything. Just wasted a whole bunch of time.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:35","seconds":35,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Welcome back to Chain of Thought, everyone. I am your host, Conor Bronsdon, and joining me is my cohost, Atin Drea Sanyal, co founder and CTO of Galileo. Atin, as always, great to have you behind the mic with me.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":2,"time":"0:47","seconds":47,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Always great to be here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":3,"time":"0:49","seconds":49,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. I'm excited for this conversation because it's gonna be on a few topics you and I are particularly passionate about, and which I hate to tell our audience, but they've probably heard us opine about a few times because we have a special guest joining us who's been at the forefront of applied AI, helping over 30 companies navigate the complexities of building and productionizing their products. Hamel Husain is an independent AI consultant, a luminary in the eval space,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":4,"time":"1:13","seconds":73,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and has worked with innovative companies such as Airbnb and GitHub, which included early LLM research, used by OpenAI for code understanding. Hamel, great to see you. Welcome to the show.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":5,"time":"1:24","seconds":84,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"Thank you for having me.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":6,"time":"1:26","seconds":86,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. It's absolutely a pleasure because we've chatted a couple times about product philosophy, how to approach AI products today, and you're obviously well known for","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":7,"time":"1:37","seconds":97,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"your blogs, your courses, and a particular favorite of mine is your field guide to rapidly improving AI products. You get right to the core of what actually makes AI products successful in the real world, And that feels like the perfect place for us to start our conversation. You open that guide with this concept of a tools trap that many companies are falling into. Can you start by giving our audience a bit of an explanation of this idea and why so many smart AI teams are falling into this trap.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":8,"time":"2:07","seconds":127,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":9,"time":"2:09","seconds":129,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"So a lot of times when people think about evals or measuring, you know, the reliability or performance of their LMs in terms of is it doing the right thing for the user, the first thing that a lot of people's minds go to is, like, okay. What tools can I use? Can I just, like, abstract this entire thing away to some tools? Can I just buy tool like, you know, can I make it not my problem?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":10,"time":"2:35","seconds":155,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"You know? Is there some abstraction or something that I can use to, like, have it so that I don't have to worry about the accuracy of my AI product or the performance of it or if it's doing the right thing. Like, maybe something can just figure it out for me. And, you know, until we get to like AGI or something like that, I don't think that's possible. But, you know, it is where people's mind goes goes towards.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":11,"time":"3:05","seconds":185,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"And so I think the number one question I get is, hey. What are the tools? And that's the wrong question. The question should be like, hey. What's the right process? Like, how do you how do you evaluate AI? You know, getting into tools later, but what is the right process to go through? Because no matter what tool you use, you have to go through a certain process","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":12,"time":"3:31","seconds":211,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"to evaluate AI correctly.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":13,"time":"3:33","seconds":213,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, and, Otten, I know you have a ton of thoughts about that process, and both of you, I've seen, discuss this idea of generic metrics not being enough for many companies. You know, fancy dashboards being a panacea and, you know, a Band Aid solution, not something that actually solves everyone's problems. And this idea in your guide, as you put it, Hamel, creating of a false sense of measurement and progress, or as you described it, that, Atin,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":14,"time":"4:03","seconds":243,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"you know, AI has a measurement problem. Hamel, could you give us an example of how you think vanity metrics have led teams astray? Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":15,"time":"4:10","seconds":250,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"So it's really","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":16,"time":"4:12","seconds":252,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"tempting if you're building AI tools, you know, Autin probably can provide more color around this, but I've seen this with other vendors, not not trying to pick on Galileo or really anyone, to be honest, is when you go into a pitch meeting around, hey, like, we can help you with your evals, you know, people wanna see a solution. And they want, you know, it's easy to kind of present a dashboard. It's convincing to some extent, if you don't know any better, to present a dashboard with all a bunch of generic metrics, hallucination score, toxicity score,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":17,"time":"4:51","seconds":291,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"conciseness score, you name it. It just so happens that these generic metrics are most of the time not helpful at all. You know, they're they're way too generic. They don't necessarily correlate with actual failures in your AI product, and they don't actually mean anything. And it's it can be extremely destructive because, like, you know, people get kinda seduced into this. Like, okay. I could just again, going back to the tools","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":18,"time":"5:22","seconds":322,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"discussion, I can plug in this dashboard to my system. I can get this dashboard of metrics. It can tell me, like, how I'm doing. And then you kind of have this illusion of, oh, like, I checked the box of doing evals, and I am monitoring my system. But in reality, like, you're not monitoring anything. You just wasted a whole bunch of time. You don't really know what your failures are and, like, what the most important things you should be focusing on.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":19,"time":"5:46","seconds":346,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"And so it just creates a lot of churn, and I think people are getting a lot better with recognizing that now. I think, especially six months ago, it was the cause of almost all of my consulting business, with people that were confused and hit kind of a a roadblock or a wall in terms of, okay, we plugged in this tool. We got this generic dashboard thing, and we don't really know what to do now.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":20,"time":"6:15","seconds":375,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"No. I I absolutely second what Hamel is saying. In fact, I would go to the extent of saying that this","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":21,"time":"6:22","seconds":382,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"generic metrics problem has existed in machine learning even before GenAI. Even erstwhile ML workflows, you usually have a held out test set, measure F1 scores, and just say the model is good or bad based on that score. Those approaches as well are akin to generic approaches where they treat all kinds of errors the same way. In some situations they're necessary but they're in no way sufficient.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":22,"time":"6:51","seconds":411,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"And these were also some of the realizations that personally had as well before even starting the company when we built Michelangelo at Uber, there was no one stop metric that would be the panacea for your problems, and the same patterns are emerging again. I'm curious to ask you, Hamel, what kind of patterns you're seeing, but basically, just to take an example,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":23,"time":"7:18","seconds":438,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"with agents, customized architectures are kind of the way to go. You can build agentic architectures in a million different ways, and customized architectures need customized personalized evals, which also need to evolve as your application grows and evolves and meets the new new kinds of data. So one good question to ask, think, for practitioner, for a developer is rather than, oh, what metrics do I need from a buffet of metrics,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":24,"time":"7:49","seconds":469,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"rather, what are the pains or potential risks in the workflows of my app? Let's list them down, and then author evals which are customized to those panes, and then constantly monitor those panes because those panes will also evolve, panes as in potential risks and pitfalls in your application, and then accordingly update the set of evals that you're using based on those","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":25,"time":"8:15","seconds":495,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"evolving pitfalls. But I'm curious to know if you've seen similar patterns, Mel.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":26,"time":"8:19","seconds":499,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"Yeah, so one of the things that's really important","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":27,"time":"8:23","seconds":503,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"to do with evals is to ground it in your failures. So how do you know what your failures are? And like, the thing that we harp on a lot and what we teach in evals and what I write in my blogs constantly is look at your data. But what does look at your data mean? Look at your data so what's behind look at your data is this process called error analysis. And error analysis is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":28,"time":"8:48","seconds":528,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"has been around for a really long time, even before machine learning. So it's like been around in social sciences. I recently learned it. I thought, you know, the first time I was exposed to it was machine learning, of course. But it is a kind of this process where you go through and you look at data and you take notes about what is going wrong, and you then","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":29,"time":"9:10","seconds":550,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"use those notes and you kind of categorize them. You say, okay, like, what kinds of errors am I seeing? And you can do it starts very simple, like counting those categories and seeing like, okay, what types of errors are happening the most? And then you make a decision like what to prioritize from there. And it's a very powerful technique that most people don't do","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":30,"time":"9:34","seconds":574,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"because no one has taught them to do it, I think. And it's very simple. It's like the most simple kind of thing. We like, you know, We're talking about opening a trace viewer and then writing notes and going through a bunch of traces. And there's some, okay, the same questions always come up, how many traces should I look at? So on and so forth. And there's some useful heuristics. There's this concept from social sciences","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":31,"time":"10:01","seconds":601,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"called theoretical saturation, which just means like, hey, keep looking at traces until you're not learning anything new. So what we teach is, like, try to look at at least a 100 traces just as a heuristic to get people started because they have a lot of anxiety. If you just say theoretical saturation, they get they don't even begin.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":32,"time":"10:18","seconds":618,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"They just get scared of the whole process.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":33,"time":"10:21","seconds":621,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"But 100 is, like, concrete number people can know, like, have a goal.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":34,"time":"10:26","seconds":626,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"And then, like, you know, after you begin, you don't really care about the 100. You're like, oh, I'm learning so much. I think that's the counterintuitive part of, like, going through individual data points and reading what is happening in a focused session provides immense value, and people don't know that until they do it. They're very surprised you know, at the amount of value that it provides. And so that that can inform all of your evals activity.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":35,"time":"10:58","seconds":658,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"You know, it'll, like, it'll motivate everything, like what you should focus on, what you should write an eval for, etcetera. And it's not really like this error analysis can, like, kind of bucket it into this activity of evals, but it's not even evals. It's, like, just development. So I'll just","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":36,"time":"11:19","seconds":679,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"stop there. No.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":37,"time":"11:19","seconds":679,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"That's super fascinating. I I actually kind of as you were talking, I'm drawing parallels to certain sort of opinions that we make on the Galileo platform itself, because we are an evals and observability platform, is this new notion of quantitative insights or metrics and qualitative, and the qualitative bit to me sounded very similar to the theoretical saturation workflow that you're describing, which is the error analysis process where it's less about numbers between zero and one measuring low and high, and it's more about","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":38,"time":"11:57","seconds":717,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"more abstract. It's at a much more abstract level where are you achieving what you were set out to do? And along the way, what pitfalls or errors are you seeing? Something we do in Galileo is kind of drive the developer or the user to using what we call LogStream Insights, And LogStream insights are more qualitative insights on hoards of your data, like segments of your","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":39,"time":"12:25","seconds":745,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"long running sessions, whether it's like a chatbot session or any kind of long running agent, we would analyze data in bulk and give you qualitative insights and then try to correlate them to potentially having you build some quantitative measures based on those qualitative insights. And hopefully the more qualitative insights you find, you reach that theoretical saturation","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":40,"time":"12:52","seconds":772,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"that you're talking about. So I can draw a lot of parallels and it's very fascinating to hear kind of the theoretical sort of side of error analysis and the practice of it being much beyond AI and machine learning.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":41,"time":"13:06","seconds":786,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I'm curious if the two of you think that part of the reason","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":42,"time":"13:12","seconds":792,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"this approach to error analysis hasn't really truly been popularized in current AI development circles is because we've seen this change in persona where most of the people who were doing machine learning work, like, there were engineers involved, but it's a lot of data scientists who have kind of more classically been trained on some of these error analysis techniques. Whereas software debugging","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":43,"time":"13:37","seconds":817,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"is a different approach often. And we're now seeing kind of the the marrying of these two approaches with engineers who are now becoming AI engineers and and working very differently and having to transform both how they think about the software they create from deterministic to nondeterministic, and also having to think about their approaches in different ways. Is that what's driving this kind of gap, you think, or is it something different?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":44,"time":"14:01","seconds":841,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"I think so. Yes. I mean, I I would say the first epoch or phase of AI engineering","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":45,"time":"14:08","seconds":848,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"was very much focused on, okay, like, we need to build stuff. We need to get go to zero to one really fast, and let's see what's possible in a rough sense. And, you know, now that you know, and so it was very much the narrative and, you know, also the truth. Like, you know, one of the most important skill to get started was software engineering, you know, in that. Like, you need to, you know, glue together a lot of things, use APIs,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":46,"time":"14:36","seconds":876,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"you know, kind of full stack engineering, really important. And when it comes to, okay, like, how do you know that this stochastic system is reliable? That's a whole different skill set that takes time to learn. And there's a very large intersection between machine learning, data science, and the skills you need to do evals often. And the reason you know, I tried to actually","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":47,"time":"15:11","seconds":911,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"see how how much I could get get away with in terms of, like, teaching engineers evals without data science background or, you know, the requisite, let's say, background. And you do hit a limitation really fast. And, like, for example, you know, Srain and I are teaching a class on evals. We've taught over 700 students so far of all different kinds of backgrounds.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":48,"time":"15:38","seconds":938,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"And, you know, like for example, when we get into building LLM as a judge, what we teach people is like, okay, one of the things that's important with LLM as a judge is that you can trust the LLM as a judge. And to trust LLM as a judge, you have to compare it to some human labels. There's things like the And questions always come up such as hey like why is it okay to sample","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":49,"time":"16:08","seconds":968,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"data how can you know and like we we show people, like, okay. If you wanna know how much noise there is in your judge, you can do stuff like boot strap bootstrap sampling. People don't understand that. They're like, why is it okay to, like, just continue, like, sample a whole bunch of times from a dataset to get the distribution? And so we we found that, like, we almost have to go back to classic statistics and see people that you. Which","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":50,"time":"16:31","seconds":991,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"is not super tractable, to be honest. Like, you know, not in the format of, okay. Let me teach you evals real quick. You can teach fundamentals, and you don't necessarily need all that stuff to get started, but you can you need, like, a fair amount of data literacy. That's one side of the equation. It's, like, statistics, but, also, it's all the analytical tools.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":51,"time":"16:55","seconds":1015,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"Right? So like how do you how do you like dig into data? You know, like let's say we're talking about traces earlier and like clustering those traces or navigating them or analyzing them. Like you want to be able to like really pick at data really fast and just do open ended exploratory analysis on it. And a lot of those data skills come into play again when it comes to, like, digging into a problem.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":52,"time":"17:21","seconds":1041,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"And so, like, you very quickly arrive at the very similar skill set of a machine learning engineer or a data scientist. You don't necessarily you don't need to be training models, but I would argue that you shouldn't be spending most of your time training models anyways. Like, you were looking at, you were doing a lot of error analysis and debugging and whatnot, so","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":53,"time":"17:46","seconds":1066,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"that's my spicy hot take perhaps in this podcast.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":54,"time":"17:50","seconds":1070,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Don't think it's a hot take at all. I think it's a very, very legit take on just the distinction between software engineers and data scientists, and answering that key question. Like in the new world of sort of meshed roles and the AI engineer and what is, you know, mostly, like technical people are kind of undergoing this minor identity crisis. And the answer kind of lies in what you said, which is if you were to cherry pick one skill that's needed","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":55,"time":"18:23","seconds":1103,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"for the software engineer to become the AI engineer or, you know, to be efficient in the modern era is really just the skill of understanding data and knowing the difference between good and bad data or how to take bad data and step by step move it to good data and just data literacy is how you put it. Think that is the main skill because there's the other skills which are, you know, knowing the semantics of a decision tree,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":56,"time":"18:50","seconds":1130,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"which is totally commoditized and you don't need to know. You don't even need to know how to train models or fine tune them. But to be able to understand this basic process of comparing an output with a pre generated ground truth, which is either human labeled or synthetic, but just knowing the goods and bads of the practices, that is what data literacy is, and if this skill is adopted","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":57,"time":"19:17","seconds":1157,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"by a tier A software engineer, I think they've set themselves up for the future.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":58,"time":"19:22","seconds":1162,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"Definitely, and there's lot of other related skills as well, like designing metrics, and the list goes on, how to tell stories with data, how to have a sense of when your metrics are leading you astray, all the way down to like having good product sense and having that be aligned with with metrics, you know, potentially doing AB tests, the whole suite of things is is important.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":59,"time":"19:49","seconds":1189,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"My friends and I joke that we might have a new, job title coming called AI scientist, but I try not to be the one who is coining you Wait wait a second.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":60,"time":"19:59","seconds":1199,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Job title. We're talking about AIPMs,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":61,"time":"20:02","seconds":1202,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"AI engineers, AI scientists now. Oh, man.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":62,"time":"20:06","seconds":1206,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"You know, there's always every time there's a technological shift of some kind, there is kind of this sort of gravitation towards the idea of a unicorn. So we saw it we saw it actually, like, many times. Like, you know, the most recent time we've seen it is, like, actually in data science itself, where, you know, initially at the outset of the data scientist,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":63,"time":"20:29","seconds":1229,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"we had the person that did everything, software engineering, statistics, DevOps, so on and so forth. I think, like, people realize there's a little bit too much service area, honestly, and then kinda split it into different kinda sub disciplines. Then we may be seeing that with AI engineer, if I were to predict.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":64,"time":"20:48","seconds":1248,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Speaking of AI engineers, I know one of the recommendations that you've made, Hamel, has been that when teams are making AI investments, particularly when AI engineers are helping make their decisions here, it's really important just to have a customized way of viewing their data, not necessarily a complex dashboard, so that they can approach this debugging as error analysis the right way, so they can make decisions in the right way.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":65,"time":"21:14","seconds":1274,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Because as I think as Austin and I have certainly experienced working with folks, it's very easy to overwhelm teams with too much data instead of enabling focus. Why do you think giving everyone an easy way to see what their AI system is doing","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":66,"time":"21:30","seconds":1290,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"is more impactful than some of the sophisticated analytics that I think often we're trying to reach for?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":67,"time":"21:35","seconds":1295,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"Yeah. So the guidance there is like, okay. There's a lot of tools out there that provide a good way to get started, like Galileo. Like, you know, you have a a way that you can, like, plug in your AI application and see your traces in a stream, and kind of","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":68,"time":"21:53","seconds":1313,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"go through that. A lot a lot of times in, you know, in your applications, there are a lot of domain specific things going on. Like, might have widgets that you're rendering. Your application might be writing emails. You might have external data sources that you need to reference to evaluate particular trace. You might want to have you might want to view the trace in the exact way the user is is seeing it,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":69,"time":"22:27","seconds":1347,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"For example, you might have things in your trace that by default are usually not helpful, but that take up a lot of space in terms of tokens. All kinds of, like, little nuances. So what you want to do is really dial in the data viewing experience so that you can do this error analysis and, like, review lots of data really fast in a way that is very customized to you, that is very contextualized","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":70,"time":"22:55","seconds":1375,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"to how you want to see data, all the data you need to see in one place, rendered in exactly the right way. And so the reason that's my that's our advice is just because of AI. Because, like, AI, you can vibe code. So, you know, AI is really good at producing simple applications that can render data and, like, you know, have simple yeah. Simple web applications like render data where you have, like, input fields and stuff like that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":71,"time":"23:26","seconds":1406,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"That's something that is probably, you know, below the bar where AI can clear clear those tasks very well. And so because of that reality, we recommend that people in a lot of cases like create their own data annotation apps because there's just way too much value to be had relative to the cost of doing so. Isn't that the case like 100% of the time, but it's the case like a lot of times.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":72,"time":"23:55","seconds":1435,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Atsin, I know a big part of our recent product philosophy at Galileo has been to give people more simplified views, whether it's, you know, the graph view or timeline view, which we've kind of designed with the idea of like, okay, let's give them other options to debug agents in particular as we look at these kind of more complex systems, as well as other views that, you know, may or may not be live by the time that this podcast launches.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":73,"time":"24:19","seconds":1459,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I know this is something you're thinking about a lot this is something you're thinking a lot about too, because as I alluded to, we've kind of had conversations together with AI engineers, I think, just like Hamel has, who are going, hey, I need help focusing here. I'm not really sure what to look at necessarily. I'm not sure where to spend my time in that error analysis.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-73","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":74,"time":"24:38","seconds":1478,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"What's your philosophy on how to approach this, I guess, observability and focus layer that Hamel is talking about?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-74","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":75,"time":"24:46","seconds":1486,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Yeah. I think beyond the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-75","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":76,"time":"24:49","seconds":1489,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"graph views, which is a feature that we offer, features like graph views kind of tend to point to the broader philosophy of giving the right abstractions to the user to be able to kind of do the segmented root causing of these ever growing sophistication in systems which have evolved from simple REG to agentic REG to multi agent. You want to give the users the right abstractions so that they can shine the torch in the right areas,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-76","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":77,"time":"25:24","seconds":1524,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"and that's where views like the graph view, session views, interaction views, these come in to be able to give the tools to the user to just be able to root cause effectively. And what that means what that entails is you run your application end to end, and each request may sort of touch certain parts of your application and light up the nodes there. And each request will run through a different","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-77","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":78,"time":"25:54","seconds":1554,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"sort of path in in in your application, which you can visualize as a dagger or workflow. The first step is to be able to spot the anomaly where kind of the ground level customization on the metrics, as well as the qualitative insights come in, but then these right abstractions and the right views to be able to make sense of, yeah, what's going on. And then there's the data that's associated with, because all this is really is just data flowing through a bunch of nodes and edges.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-78","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":79,"time":"26:28","seconds":1588,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"So once you spot the anomaly, you want to look at the data and what, you know, went wrong with that. So simplifying the views around the data is kind of the next step from there.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-79","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":80,"time":"26:39","seconds":1599,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"And just to be clear, like, what I described does not add odds with these things and tools. They're just, like, supplementary. Like, I I also always want a trace viewer like the ones in Galileo because this can be, like, a lot faster to search through that and just look at that without you know, sometimes I'm looking sometimes I'm looking for something that maybe by accident wasn't in the annotation tool or something else. So it it is really useful. And also, like, a lot of these platforms, like Galileo, have APIs where you can connect your annotation tool to,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-80","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":81,"time":"27:13","seconds":1633,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"and, you know, write data back and forth to it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-81","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":82,"time":"27:16","seconds":1636,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"So, you know, that's just something to think about.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-82","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":83,"time":"27:18","seconds":1638,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. And I think we all agree that's a a great best practice, is to leverage the APIs of whatever evaluation tool you're leveraging. Obviously, we we hope that's Galileo. But whichever eval tool you're using, like, using that API to bring that data into other places where you can look at it look at it in different ways,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-83","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":84,"time":"27:37","seconds":1657,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and kind of consume that information and highlight it to business users, think is a fantastic thing to do. And, Hamel, I know you've talked about this idea of empowering domain experts who may not be in an eval product every day to add their insights and help improve these nondeterministic systems. How do you think about, you know, writing and iterating on prompts","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-84","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":85,"time":"28:02","seconds":1682,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"with domain experts versus with engineers?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-85","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":86,"time":"28:06","seconds":1686,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"Yeah. So one of the biggest failure modes I see, and is also one of the biggest drivers of my consulting business, is people outsourcing evaluations to developers, which is fine if you're building a developer tool where the developer is a domain expert, but usually they're not. And the symptom there are the root cause of people outsourcing eval developers because they're thinking of AI like software engineering. They're like, oh, AI","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-86","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":87,"time":"28:39","seconds":1719,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"development is a software engineering task. The, you know, the moment you'd say anything about AI development process, they're like, this is outsourced to developers. That turns out that always goes really badly because, yeah, like, you're you're only guessing, you know, and the developers don't have enough context, so you want to involve the domain expert. It's like, you know, if you're","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-87","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":88,"time":"29:05","seconds":1745,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"working building something for lawyers, you want to involve the lawyer. You wanna involve the the legal expert at some point. And so, you know, when it comes time to doing things like iterating on prompts, you shouldn't have the prompt so removed from the domain expert. The whole point of LLMs is, like, humans can talk to computers. And so if you obfuscate everything so much that the domain expert can't talk to the computer, then you're","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-88","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":89,"time":"29:31","seconds":1771,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"kind of burning the whole, you know, the value proposition of AI to begin with. Like, because you wanna direct, you know, line of communication between your domain expert and your in, like, what's going into the AI in terms of prompting. And so what I described in that blog post is a lot of like, a good pattern that I've seen work really well is if you have a user facing application,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-89","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":90,"time":"29:59","seconds":1799,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"you know, have, like, an admin view where you expose the prompt and allow the person to change the prompt. Even if you don't want the user to change the prompt, you have the like, for your internal purposes, you have an admin view that allows the domain expert to change the prompt and and fiddle with it. It gives them, like, a more direct connection to what exactly is happening rather than, like, having conversate abstract conversations about AI, and it should do this and it should do that. It's really important that they get in there, and they are, like, experimenting.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-90","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":91,"time":"30:30","seconds":1830,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. And I think it very much aligns to what Galileo has done with our continuous learning through human feedback feature, because we feel the same way. You need to leverage this domain expert feedback. You can't simply have it just be the engineers who may be, depending on your business, you know, divorced from the bare metal of what the product's doing. Like, hopefully they are are very aligned to that, but sometimes they have business users who are translating,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-91","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":92,"time":"30:55","seconds":1855,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"you know, key pieces of that for them, or domain experts who bring a lot of context. And I know it's part of why, especially when we're looking at custom metrics, but all of our metrics, we leverage, you know, feedback from SMEs, you know, whatever type they may may be, can go in and say, okay, like, let me get feedback on these 10 traces and say, hey, this this metric feels a little off, actually. This is pretty accurate, or, you know, here's a little contextual feedback,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-92","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":93,"time":"31:18","seconds":1878,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and then use a judge to translate that and apply it and, you know, retune the metrics. It's something we're we're finding a lot of success with. But I I think there's a lot more opportunity to go deeper here, to your point. Like, it feels like too often, even in highly customized evaluation systems for enterprises, we are just scratching the surface of the human context that we can bring in.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-93","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":94,"time":"31:41","seconds":1901,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I mean, it's it's a very common problem for many organizations that there is too much tribal knowledge that's not living in documentations, that's not necessarily making its way into systems. And to your point, it's so necessary that we bring that human knowledge into our AI systems because they perform best when they have the data they need. And it can be as simple as","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-94","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":95,"time":"32:04","seconds":1924,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"friction between technical teams and understanding that domain experts have of some of the jargon of your AI systems. Like, you gave this great example in one of your pieces about translating REG to just making sure the model has the right context and really saying, hey, like, let's just put this in a term that anyone can understand, even if they're not deep in AI.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-95","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":96,"time":"32:25","seconds":1945,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"What's your advice for AI teams who are looking to bridge that gap and really bring their domain experts into the fold, so that they can be part of improving their AI systems and their AI data.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-96","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":97,"time":"32:37","seconds":1957,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"Yeah. Let me, like, clarify","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-97","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":98,"time":"32:40","seconds":1960,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"the last point with some, like, concrete failure modes, like, to look out for. Like, one is okay. There's a there's there's an aspect of, like, a prompt store or, like, a centralized place that you could put prompts, which is fine. But a lot of times what happens is folks don't build, like, properly enough around around that. They don't build, an experimentation","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-98","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":99,"time":"33:04","seconds":1984,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"environment. And so, like, you have to change the prompt there and then, like, commit it and then wait and then, like, go somewhere else and, like, try something. And that's, like, way too much friction. So that is kind of you know, that prevents the domain expert from experimenting. A lot of tools have prompt playgrounds, which are great. It's a good place to get started. However, most pump playgrounds, they don't have access to your tools and your infrastructure and your application code. So they can't call","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-99","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":100,"time":"33:33","seconds":2013,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"they can't perform rag, they can't call tools, they can't do all the things that your application is doing. And so, you know, you can't necessarily rely on that either. That's why you need this, like, integrated I forgot what I called it in the in the blog post thing. Called it, like, integrated prompting environment or something. Try to make up a name for Basically it's, you need to be able to play","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-100","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":101,"time":"33:55","seconds":2035,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"with the prompt in your user facing application directly. Because that's the only pattern, at least that I've seen, that's worked reliably in terms of bringing the domain experts in.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-101","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":102,"time":"34:04","seconds":2044,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Yeah, I'll just add a couple of points here. First, of course the need for","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-102","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":103,"time":"34:11","seconds":2051,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"easy to, sort of easy to use human feedback is critical, And some of our, yeah, like to your point, Conor, some of our human feedback features, which go much beyond, you know, just offering like binary signals, thumbs up, thumbs down, and the ability to create your own sort of feedback, kinds of feedback becomes important. But to Hamel's other point about just","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-103","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":104,"time":"34:40","seconds":2080,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"managing the prompts and offering the subject matter experts the ability to tweak the prompts to interact with the app. I think engineering wise, the matter gets a little bit tricky, especially for more sophisticated applications like multi agents where things are not necessarily driven by one prompt, might have a series of prompts which are triggered one after the other, you don't have control over","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-104","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":105,"time":"35:06","seconds":2106,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"many of them, but more often than not, it is driven by a kind of a seed query, which is kind of the natural language interface to any GenAI app. So the engineering challenge kind of becomes how do you abstract the entire application and make it available in front of the user through a natural language interface, the user being the subject matter expert, not the developer,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-105","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":106,"time":"35:32","seconds":2132,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"but being able to actually run the developer's app seamlessly, so that to the SME, it's all about, here's my input. I have pure knowledge about my input and the expected output, but all the machinery in the middle, you should be able to abstract out from me. So the trickiness kind of comes in the fact that, I guess, the challenges around how do you use our APIs and the SDKs and, of course, all the, you know, containerization","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-106","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":107,"time":"36:01","seconds":2161,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"technology to be able to kind of simulate version of the app, which may be a distributed app. It might be running on, you know, two different availability zones for that matter. It is just software. So I think that's where the the challenge comes, and we are kind of at a point where it's it's doable to simulate sort of singular monolithic applications and make this workflow available to the SME, but it gets challenging when the app","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-107","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":108,"time":"36:28","seconds":2188,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"itself becomes distributed, and that's where kind of the a lot of engineering","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-108","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":109,"time":"36:34","seconds":2194,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"innovation is going.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-109","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":110,"time":"36:34","seconds":2194,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"Yeah. It's really nontrivial. Like, have to be you have to think, like, you often can't, like, expose everything to the SME. You have to say, is there a high value thing I can expose? And you know, it just if anything else, it just helps give them intuition. So they don't think rag is a very abstract concept or prompt is even an abstract concept.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-110","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":111,"time":"36:58","seconds":2218,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"You know, you'll be surprised, like, how many people think prompt is an abstract concept because they say something in a meeting and the expectation is a developer's gonna write the prompt. That's the worst thing that can possibly happen. So whatever way possible you needed to get away from that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-111","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":112,"time":"37:12","seconds":2232,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And so what I'd love to close the conversation with,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-112","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":113,"time":"37:16","seconds":2236,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and Hamel, thank you again so much for joining us. It's been a distinct pleasure having you. It is just some advice. Like, what what would be your summation, your advice to a team that is looking to build their eval system, that is looking to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-113","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":114,"time":"37:31","seconds":2251,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"improve their AI product? What would you tell them?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-114","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":115,"time":"37:33","seconds":2253,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"Yeah. So the biggest two kind of things that I can think of is like one, error analysis, also known as look at your data. It just it can yeah. It solves so many problems. I was like, maybe 90% of the whole evals process is is like looking at your data. Like, you find so much even before writing evals. Like, just find you'll just find so many bugs, so many things, opportunities for improvement, so on and so forth.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-115","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":116,"time":"38:05","seconds":2285,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"And then the next thing that I can think of that makes a huge difference is having the experimentation mindset. And this one you have to cultivate a little bit. There's some talks that I can point you to about how you might, you know, reframe your thinking. I mean, this is something that's innate to machine learning folks and data science folks is, like, you know, you don't have, like, this waterfall","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-116","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":117,"time":"38:31","seconds":2311,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"chart of, like, how to build a machine learning system. Like, you have to you you have an idea of, different experiments you wanna try. You don't even know it's gonna work. But what you do have is a hypothesis of, like, hey. Like, this might work. This might not work. Let's try this. Let's look at this afterwards. And so you have to reorient a lot of things in order to do that. You have to kind of, you know, have a different language that you talk","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-117","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":118,"time":"39:01","seconds":2341,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"about within your teams and sort of make sure that you're not don't have those rigid approaches when it comes to this. It's hard yeah. That's probably another podcast, but","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-118","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":119,"time":"39:16","seconds":2356,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"those are my thoughts.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-119","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":120,"time":"39:16","seconds":2356,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I mean, we can definitely have you back for for another conversation, because I think there is so much more we can go into here. Ottin, how about you? Any closing thoughts from your side of the house?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-120","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":121,"time":"39:24","seconds":2364,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Yeah. I would say that, you know, erstwhile,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-121","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":122,"time":"39:28","seconds":2368,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"before LLMs, AI was considered garbage in garbage out, and now with LLMs, AI has become software, so software three point zero is AI, and now software is garbage in garbage out. So to Hamel's point, do look at your data because of garbage in garbage out. And secondly, I would say that there's three specific things that I've learned as kind of the layers of AI reliability.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-122","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":123,"time":"39:56","seconds":2396,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"The bottom most layer is the kind of the brass tacks, set up basic monitoring traceability. That's just stuff that we've solved before AI happened. Traditional observability is a partially solved problem, and there are certain things that are done well there, adopt those practices. The second layer of the three layers is set up your prompts and your metrics and consider them as your evaluation assets, they're your first class citizens,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-123","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":124,"time":"40:26","seconds":2426,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"they will evolve over time, have disciplined versioning, lineage around them, set up a good system there. And the third is the insights layer, which is the whole qualitative insights turned into customized quantitative insights. So if you practice these three things and kind of consider them the three pillars of your AI reliability, you've built a good three sixty evaluations and observability layer","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-124","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":125,"time":"40:51","seconds":2451,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"in your software.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-125","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":126,"time":"40:52","seconds":2452,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"And I'll add one more thing, is take my course. So it's a shameless plug, take the Evals course. It'd be a good way to learn about how to get set up with the Evals.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-126","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":127,"time":"41:03","seconds":2463,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I'll second that and say also check out Hamel on X and on LinkedIn, he shares a lot of fantastic content. We will certainly link both those, in the show notes, yeah, Hamel's blog as well is is a great place to to go learn. Hamel, thank you so much for joining us on the show. It's been a pleasure.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-127","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":128,"time":"41:21","seconds":2481,"speaker":"Hamel Husain","text":"Yeah. Thank you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-128","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":129,"time":"41:23","seconds":2483,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And to our listeners, if you want more fantastic content,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-129","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain","episode":37,"guid":"ef05864e-9134-4b6f-b1c3-ab9cc910ffb3","episodeTitle":"Mindset Over Metrics: How to Approach AI Engineering | Hamel Husain","publishedAt":"2025-08-20","segmentIndex":130,"time":"41:28","seconds":2488,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"from Hamel and many other thought leaders, make sure you subscribe to the podcast because we share information from industry experts, perspectives from AI luminaries, and hot takes, plus much more both in the podcasting app of your choice and on YouTube. So whether you wanna watch the conversation, listen in, or check out any of our other content here from Galileo, you can find us all over the Internet. We appreciate your support, and Hamel Ottin, thank you again for joining me today. Thank you. Thank you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/37-mindset-over-metrics-how-to-approach-ai-engineering-hamel-husain/#t-130","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"I look at the speed at which people are able to build things, and I think velocity will be a massive, massive differentiator. I think teams have got to get on this train because they're gonna be competing on the ground feature for feature, capability for capability. And if you don't embrace this, I just cannot imagine you you don't get left behind.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:28","seconds":28,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Welcome back to Chain of Thought, everyone. I am your host, Conor Bronsdon. Our guest today is Claire Vo. Claire is the chief product and technology officer at LaunchDarkly, the founder of Chat PRD, and also the host of the How I AI podcast. Claire, welcome to the show. It's great to have you here. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. I love that you've got this diverse perspective and approach across AI. Not only are you diving deeper with other folks and exploring","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":2,"time":"0:55","seconds":55,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and creating content, not only have you founded your own AI enabled application, but you're also building AI products as a leader at a scaling company like LaunchDarkly. And I have to imagine this gives you a varied perspective across the space, a unique vantage point even. And that's exactly what I wanna explore with you today. From the incredible product development velocity that AI enables to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:22","seconds":82,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"how it changes the equation for risk and why leaders need to be building their own vibe coded apps just to keep up. And by the way, I'm doing a terrible job of this, so I I'm feeling held accountable at this conversation already. So let's start, though, with this demand that we're seeing around agentic AI, something we've talked a lot about on this show, but I think it's really important to continue to dive into. And, in particular, I think your perspective is one I wanna I wanna understand deeper.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":4,"time":"1:49","seconds":109,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"With Chat PRD, you're seeing a significant demand for more agentic AI experiences over copilot like models. From your vantage point, what are the key drivers behind this growing hunger for agents within AI that perhaps didn't exist six, twelve months ago?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":5,"time":"2:07","seconds":127,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"I think there's a couple things that probably can contribute to this rise of demand for more agentic experiences. I think the foundational one is people are just much more comfortable with the concepts of generative AI and AI products. And so they're able to wrap their heads around the things that were keeping them from adopting any AI products, let alone agentic ones. You know, where is my data going?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":6,"time":"2:31","seconds":151,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"How are these responses being generated? Who can I trust? Is my data secure? Does it have enough context? Is it gonna hallucinate? If you don't have that foundational understanding of how these products work, you're certainly not gonna embrace a form factor of the product that's a little bit more independent, a little bit more asynchronous, and a little bit more connected to your data and your products. And so","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":7,"time":"2:55","seconds":175,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"I think one baseline comfort and understanding with AI definitely helps here. And then I think the second thing that we're seeing is working with AI tools is still work. You still have to, like, sit in front of some sort of tool and figure out what am I gonna prompt this thing? What can it do for me? What can it do well? It's still really coming from a push from the human","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":8,"time":"3:20","seconds":200,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"in order to get these outputs from AI. And I think, you know, what people are really wanting when they come to a GenTick experience is is I wanna discover what you can do for me. I want you to be able to do a broad set of tasks for me. And once I set you off on a path, I want you to take it to its logical conclusion. And so I think there's this form factor or UX of the AgenTic experience that is actually a little bit easier to adopt than other kind of like AI products that I've seen. And so I think it's a little bit of the user experience as well makes a difference.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":9,"time":"3:56","seconds":236,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"While the user experience may be superior and I think will continue to become superior, There are considerations on the back end as far as creation that you therefore have to take on. You've, I guess, shifted left the the challenge. Instead of having it be in the co pilot experience, it's earlier on in the development process, in the guardrailing, in how you evaluate and improve those systems.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":10,"time":"4:19","seconds":259,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And yet we're still in the early days of AI adoption. Yeah. This may not be the form factor that sticks long term. We don't know yet. Can you talk about the characteristics that you're seeing leading edge teams that are comfortable offloading more and more tasks to low supervision AI like agents? Like, what are those characteristics those teams have?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":11,"time":"4:40","seconds":280,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"Yeah. I think one is risk tolerance, and I don't think this has to do exclusively with AI. I think there are company cultures that are just much more risk tolerant and have much more of a embedded experimentation mindset. So if you're coming to this age of AI with a culture where you know what the appropriate level of risk to take, you're willing to let people experiment and fail and optimize,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":12,"time":"5:07","seconds":307,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"and you want to work towards outcomes and you're willing to tolerate learning and sort of like that growth path, through that process, you're gonna be set up really well. Because foundationally, the number one thing I see with leading leading edge adoption AI teams is they're just open. They're just more open. When someone says, hey. Can you try this AI tool? They say, already have. It's so cool, or I can't wait to do it. As opposed to other companies where they say, it's never gonna it's late. Never gonna work in our code base. Never, never, never. And you spend so much time upfront objective hand objection handling","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":13,"time":"5:42","seconds":342,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"and not enough time actually figuring out what works. So I think that risk tolerance is really important. And then I think there really is operational maturity, at least at large scale. You know, if we're talking about startups, startups have the advantage of their small, their code bases are relatively less complex, their customers are probably fewer and lower risk, they can do a lot more. But if we're talking about any company","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":14,"time":"6:05","seconds":365,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"of scale that's adopting AI in a meaningful way, they're operationally mature in a way that their engineering practices already protect for quality, already protect for velocity, are already to set up to make engineers productive. When you have that foundation, it's very easy to add in agentic engineers or AI IDEs or any of these sort of automations that then accelerate","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":15,"time":"6:33","seconds":393,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"because the same practices, the same technologies, the same operations apply to when you're adding these tools in your stack as when you're adding, you know, engineers to your stack, you're adding new tools to the stack. It all applies. And so I do see this combination of risk tolerance, operational sort of maturity, and then honestly, tops down or at least centralized","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":16,"time":"6:57","seconds":417,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"focus and accountability on adoption. So somebody has to say, it's my job to make sure we become the leading AI, you know, powered engineering organization. And we've seen this lately at the CEO level. You know, we've seen all these, like, CEO edicts. So we're now this AI company. You know, that needs to happen somewhere in the engineering organization. And LaunchDarkly,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":17,"time":"7:22","seconds":442,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"it started a little bit with me. Bless them. They're stuck with me. So AI AI native whether they like it or not. But, honestly, the the shift that made the biggest difference in engineering adoption was we made one of our most senior tenured engineering leaders and engineers the, like, sort of, like, AI czar at at in the engineering organization. And that centralized accountability","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":18,"time":"7:46","seconds":466,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"and week to week execution just makes the practical adoption of these tools a lot a lot easier. So","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":19,"time":"7:54","seconds":474,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"how did you decide who the right person was for that AIs are, and what did you do to enable them to be successful? You might be surprised by the answer, which is I picked the AI skeptic.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":20,"time":"8:07","seconds":487,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"I like that. I picked, you know, not I wouldn't say, like, the AI skeptic, but certainly somebody who wasn't as naturally pre inclined as maybe I am to be bullish on the AI opportunity. I picked somebody who had one, a really good robust sense of our architecture and code base. Somebody that I knew kinda knew everything about our core monolith, knew how our engineering organization","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":21,"time":"8:35","seconds":515,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"worked, and understands understood, you know, where there are dragons, as we say. And so somebody with good foundational understanding or a code base is really important. Secondarily, somebody senior enough with enough internal tenure to both have credibility in the organization when they say, hey, this really works or this doesn't. We trust that person, but would also be able to sort of foretell","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":22,"time":"9:01","seconds":541,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"and avoid some of the big, like, landmines in adopting AI. And then the, you know, the third the third category is I really wanted to give this person has done so much for the company, and they're a wonderful leader and they're a wonderful engineer. I wanted to give them a win, honestly. So part of it is part of it was motivated by them having the right attributes to be the technical leader for this. And part of this was a career development opportunity","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":23,"time":"9:26","seconds":566,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"I wanted to give them saying, you've been here for a while. You need to figure out what your next level, next wave of impact's gonna be. Congratulations. I am plucking you the the the the plum prize of you get to put AI all over your resume, and you get to be the leader there. And so those were kind of the three reasons why we picked this person. Zach, thank you very much for doing it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":24,"time":"9:49","seconds":589,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"And it's been exceptional because he's not, you know, overly enthusiastic. He's not gonna say everything works, but he's also opened up his mind to what does work, what doesn't. They identified some technical places where we can invest to make the adoption easier, and we know who to go to for questions. Zach, how do I get access to x? Zach, how do I figure out how to get this product to work with y? We have a centralized person that makes it easier for the team to kinda understand where to go when they're trying to adopt these new technologies. Do you think leaders broadly need to rethink","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":25,"time":"10:26","seconds":626,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"their approach to innovation and risk with AI given the opportunity that's ahead here? Yes. A 100%.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":26,"time":"10:34","seconds":634,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"I just you know, the thing that keeps me up at night is some hot upstart company with a clean code base who's just ripping through features with AI. Like, it it really it really terrifies me. I look at the speed at which, you know, people are able to build things, and I think velocity will be a massive, massive differentiator. And I think people are gonna wait too long. I'm massively","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":27,"time":"11:06","seconds":666,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"pair like, super paranoid about this. And so I think teams have got to get on this train because they're gonna be competing on the ground feature for feature, capability for capability. They're gonna be competing for talent. And if you don't embrace this, I just cannot imagine you you don't get left behind, especially when these times the teams can access massive rounds of of funding. You take the combination of, like, AI native,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":28,"time":"11:37","seconds":697,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"super high velocity funded. That makes me paranoid. And so we have an incredibly healthy company, great brand, amazing engineers. Like, imagine if we had the guts to say we're just gonna operate completely differently. We're gonna embrace this. We're gonna go as fast as possible. We're gonna build some really cool stuff.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":29,"time":"11:58","seconds":718,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I think the teams that can embrace that and say that's possible and that is for us are really gonna remain relevant in this next stage. And I think folks that don't maybe will not. I will ask about one point of what you said here. Because while I broadly agree with you and think any team that's not at least attempting to adopt AI is likely to be left behind, you did mention a team that has a clean code base and it has a high velocity of AI development. Then I'll just ask about that, given that that's one of the,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":30,"time":"12:29","seconds":749,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"key areas that I think many skeptics will will push on. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look. It is very different. You know, you mentioned at the beginning I have this diverse, you know, perspective. I get two things. I get my darling petite little chat PRD repo. I've, you know, written every line of code with with Cursor, with an I, like, I know that whole thing by the back of my hand. It's not that big,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":31,"time":"12:52","seconds":772,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"and it's built on a modern stack, and it's built on a stack that AI knows how to write for. It's just a dang delight to work in. It's so so great. And then I have LaunchDarkly, which is an amazing, scaled, proven, production grade enterprise product that has been built over the course of ten years that, you know, maybe wasn't built optimized for the languages and frameworks that AI seems to do the best with. That is complex,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":32,"time":"13:21","seconds":801,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"that, you know, has some tech debt. Those are very different very different situations. Now what I think people underestimate though in the situation where you have a legacy code base is a couple things. One, the ability for AI to accelerate cleaning up your gnarliest parts of tech debt. You know, like your front end framework used to be I promise you, I've done this two or three times. Eighteen to twenty four months of ripping out whatever JavaScript framework decided to deprecate that year and, like, move to the new hotness.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":33,"time":"13:53","seconds":833,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"I've done that almost every job of my career. This makes it a lot easier. I know somebody who, at at their startup just decided we're ripping everything out. We're replacing it with with Tailwind and with Shard CN, and we're just gonna have these, like, beautiful simple components, and I don't care. Let's just rip and replace everything, and now they can move very fast. So one, I think you can replatform some parts of your product a little bit faster","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":34,"time":"14:18","seconds":858,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"and clean up some tech debt. Two is you can do purpose built things to make your repo better to work with for AI. And the bonus of doing those things is you make your repo better to work with for everyone. If an agent is having trouble running your code base locally, an intern is going to have trouble running your code base locally. A senior engineer is going to have trouble running your code base locally. Like, if it takes three days to get your local environment set up, that sucks for AI, and that sucks for humans.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":35,"time":"14:55","seconds":895,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"And if your code base is not well documented, that sucks for AI. That sucks for humans. And so I I do think one of the most effective tactics I've heard my peers do that we also try to embrace and launch directly is do a spike on how can we make this code base better for AI to work with. And that actually pays out pays out dividends in terms of efficiency. And maybe the last thing that I would say is a lot of people a lot of people say, it'll never work. It'll never work in our disgusting,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":36,"time":"15:31","seconds":931,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"disgusting old repo. Just it's impossible. And one, say that sounds like a you problem. But two, like, have have you tried? Like, have you given it a real go? Because I think people maybe try one PR with Cursor or they try one task with Devin, and it doesn't do well. And they don't learn why it doesn't do well. And they don't take the accountability of, like, maybe my prompt was bad,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":37,"time":"15:59","seconds":959,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"and then they give up. As opposed to what I think we did at LaunchDarkly, which is I said, just go experiment and report back what works, what doesn't. And for every one total dud, we got two helpful wins. And on the net, that's that's positive. And so I do think there are things you can do in legacy or more complex code bases to make it work both technically and operationally. You just have to give it a go.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":38,"time":"16:23","seconds":983,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I completely agree. I think there's a broad expectation misalignment based off of some of the marketing of AI around this is just gonna magically solve your problems. And it actually does solve a few of them, but there's still setup work that needs to done. There's still iteration that you need to do to make sure that your infrastructure is in the right place, that you have the context provided to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":39,"time":"16:45","seconds":1005,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Devon or Cursor that you may need for it. And if you spend the time to do that, the dividends that you will receive are fantastic. And I think what you're saying out of all this is essentially that leaders are still underestimating the opportunity with AI and underestimating the risk involved with sticking with a human only engineering plan.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":40,"time":"17:08","seconds":1028,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"Yeah. I mean, what I think is people are so worried about what if AI ships a bug that they decide not shipping anything is better. And that is just such a backwards way from a business perspective to look at development and innovation. Bugs with humans. Like Yeah. We we ship bugs with humans, and we ship them quite slowly. Yes. And so I just think people really underestimate","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":41,"time":"17:33","seconds":1053,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"the opportunity cost of moving slower than than they could. And I also think leaders really underestimate how irrelevant they will become if they do not know how to do this in large organizations. You know, as as I said, I gave, the kinda engineer that is leading our AI initiatives at LaunchDark. I was like, I gave you the career gift. This is like he at LaunchDarkly and beyond. Congratulations.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":42,"time":"18:03","seconds":1083,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"In 2025, you led the transformation of an engineering organization from one that operated in a legacy way to one that's operating in AI enabled way. You have all the learnings, you know what works, you know what doesn't, you have the success stories. If you as a CTO, VP of engineering, engineering manager, staff, principal engineer are not developing those stories for yourself, I guarantee you,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":43,"time":"18:28","seconds":1108,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"in two years when you go into interviews, you are not gonna be at the top of the list. If you say, we just we didn't really worry about that. That that wasn't gonna ever work for us. Or I did a couple things, but I don't really know those tools super well. You are just not going to have the hard skills to do the job. And I really do think it's a hard skills issue right now. It is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":44,"time":"18:49","seconds":1129,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"a new type of engineering skill you need to develop. Can you say more about that? How","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":45,"time":"18:54","seconds":1134,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"like, Give me some more depth on into it. Like, what does that hard skill look like? Yeah. I think I think there's a couple of things. So one,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":46,"time":"19:02","seconds":1142,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"you know, using all the tools available to you. So I think coding is gonna go to AI enabled IDs. Just is. It's just better. It's a better way to live. Know? Happening. It's already happening. And so if you do not know how to manage context, effectively prompt, set up rules, access MCPs, all those things, if you have not set up your toolkit for how do I use this new set of engineering","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":47,"time":"19:30","seconds":1170,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"tools well into an advanced degree, you're not gonna have the hard skills to be a software the software team in a couple years because you will just not know how to use the toolkit. And so I think that's one very specific example. As a engineering leader, if you do not know how to integrate and operationalize the use of coding agents or automations, either in your","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":48,"time":"19:57","seconds":1197,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"DevOps or in your engineering operations, if you don't have a sense of how those things have or have not increased overall velocity in your team, if you have not spearheaded initiatives to, as we talked about before, make your code base better for the entire organization to work with using AI, you're gonna be sitting next to and interviewing against people who have done those initiatives, who have figured out those operations.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":49,"time":"20:23","seconds":1223,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"And so, again, I think this is just as we look at how we evaluate the progression of engineers from, you know, SWE one all the way through principal engineer. If we think about what it means to be an engineering manager or director of engineering VP, CTO, I think we need to add AI fluency into that list. And I think people need to come up with a very specific list of","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":50,"time":"20:46","seconds":1246,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"skills that they evaluate for both in terms of promoting people and hiring new folks. I'm already seeing in some of the hiring discussions I'm in where people that would be fantastic candidates, you know, two years ago are not as well rated because they haven't dove into AI feet first. Yeah. And I expect that to happen even more so over the next couple of years, and not just in technical roles, in marketing roles, in sales roles. Yep. If you are not","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":51,"time":"21:16","seconds":1276,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"embracing this technological revolution, you are at a risk to be left behind. And therefore, I think what you're doing at LaunchDarkly of building this culture, cultivating this culture where the risk reward of velocity is seen as a net positive and where AI is embraced and experimented with is so important. So, you know, you mentioned appointing an AIs are helping them to transform the organization.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":52,"time":"21:46","seconds":1306,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"What other steps have you taken to really create a culture where everyone within the R and D teams","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":53,"time":"21:53","seconds":1313,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"is enabled to take this on? Yeah. We do a couple things. I think the first thing is very tactical, which is you have to get finance and security out of the way. And by out of the way, I don't mean you don't go through finance security. I mean, you have a very simple framework for evaluating tools and getting budget for them. And so Demonstrate ROI. Yeah. I established very early on, we're gonna spend some money on AI. It's gonna be totally net positive. I know in my in my soul,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":54,"time":"22:19","seconds":1339,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"and we just gotta figure it out. And then info sec, I need, like, a fast turn evaluation, and I need you to be cool. Like, be cool, be risk aware, do not put our customers at risk, do not break any of our contracts or compliance codes. But, like, otherwise, I got you gotta be cool. Like, we gotta be able to try stuff. And so I think having those two teams deeply aligned to this being something we're gonna do is great. Luckily, we had","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":55,"time":"22:44","seconds":1364,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"no friction friction there. And in fact, the finance teams are always excited because they see the the potential efficiencies gained with these these kinds of tools. That that's the first part. Then I really believe in this building public culture when you're trying to adopt AI. So we created this Slack channel. It's called project building with AI. It's got, like, 200 people in it. And you just every time you do something with AI, when it works, when it doesn't,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":56,"time":"23:10","seconds":1390,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"related to work, not related to work, dump it in the channel. So people can see, hey. I did this PR, with Cursor, and it totally blew blew me away. It built all my tests for me. I was super happy. This is great. To, you know, public chats with with Devin or another agent where, like, really, really ate it on this one. And everybody's, like, yelling at the agent to go to sleep, and it's very, very funny. So we just put it all in public. And the benefit of putting it all in public is, one, you normalize it. You say this is not something we hide or we're ashamed of or that is wrong or is not allowed.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":57,"time":"23:46","seconds":1426,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"It's all open in public. Two, you get this nice, like, learning across the it's the best way to socialize socialize learning is across the organization. So I love that that public channel. It's my favorite channel. It's super fun. And then another thing that we do kind of related to building a public is we have kind of this like AI Friday power hour. It's basically like a Twitch stream of internal people using AI tools. So we all get on ten in the morning Friday.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":58,"time":"24:16","seconds":1456,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"Everybody's in a good mood because it's ten in the morning on Friday. And, you know, two or three people try something live with AI or show an AI workflow that that worked for them. And so that is also something where you can just kind of, like, look live and watch them in our own code base, try to figure things out, explore new tools, evaluate the quality, get some, like, champions","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":59,"time":"24:40","seconds":1480,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"out there. And so I found that to be another really effective tactic. I like them a lot. And I have to say I've I've really enjoyed the various vibe coding livestreams that I've had the opportunity to watch. There was one that Microsoft built a few weeks ago with, Brendan Burns and the team at GitHub that I I really enjoyed where they're just like, oh, we're just gonna build this reminder app for my family that I wanna do. Let's just spend two hours and kinda knock it out and and, you know, quick five code session. And I think seeing others, you know, essentially","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":60,"time":"25:11","seconds":1511,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"pair programming with also an AI with pair programming also with an AI enabled, you know, is so valuable to give the context of how how others are doing it and to to to build in public and share these learnings. But I know it can be hard. There's often hesitancy. People are are nervous about not being as good at something initially or not wanting to to show things off in public. Are you finding more hesitancy with maybe senior level engineers who,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":61,"time":"25:45","seconds":1545,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"are like, oh, I've been doing this for years, and I know what I'm doing over or are junior level engineers nervous about not excelling? What where are things sitting? You know, it's hard it's hard to quote, but my heart wants to say, like, you know, you get old and curmudgeonly.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":62,"time":"26:01","seconds":1561,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"You get stuck in your ways, and you get a little True for me sometimes. Paranoid. And, you know, the more senior you are in your career, ultimately, like, the more it becomes your problem if something goes wrong. Of course, my directors of engineering are, you know, a little bit less risk tolerant for this because you know who gets paged in the middle of night, who gets yelled at when we have a sub zero? Our directors of engineering. Like, of course, because accountability","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":63,"time":"26:25","seconds":1585,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"rolls rolls up. And so I think they're appropriately, not skeptical, but just, you know, risk adjusted for for some of this stuff. That being said, you know, I do think across the board, there does still exist AI hesitancy for a couple reasons. One, as I said, you're asking people to learn a new hard skill, and people just do not have time to learn anything new. Like, okay. I could spend two hours","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":64,"time":"26:52","seconds":1612,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"spinning up this agent and installing a new IDE, and I like VIM and blah blah blah blah blah. And or I could just, like, knock out this PR. Which would I rather spend my time on? And so it's like all l and d initiatives. You have to have the time to carve it out. Two, AI is not one shot, a 100%, totally accurate all all the time. And so, of course, you are gonna get","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":65,"time":"27:19","seconds":1639,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"these instances where you work with AI and you get you bet get bad outcomes. And that to me is expected. It's cost of the game. I think it nets positive, but that can be a real detriment to to adoption. And then I think the the last piece that I found really interesting is stylistic. Right? There are are both individual coding styles as well as organization wide","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":66,"time":"27:43","seconds":1663,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"best practices and styles that teams have just gotten used to. This is how we write tests. This is how we document things. This is how we do our front end. And when an AI says, I could do it I could do the same thing. I'm just gonna do it differently than you like. People get frustrated. So I think there's a lot of reasons for folks to be skeptical. And then I do think","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":67,"time":"28:05","seconds":1685,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"leaders have this really challenging line to walk, which is, look, we have to get more efficient. We have to get more efficient because the market is getting more competitive. And sucks to be us, but that just means we have to do more with less. And I think that has been the case for several years. Nobody is saying, like, I have way more headcount than I used to. And everybody's saying, like, just hire to solve your problems. No one's saying that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":68,"time":"28:27","seconds":1707,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"And so I do think there's this reality that there is this efficiency, you know, program to some of this. And when you say that out loud, people say, you're replacing my job with AI, and I don't like that. And so I do think it's very complex. You have to have a very healthy culture in order to, like, put your arms around this, make people feel like it's part of developing","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":69,"time":"28:48","seconds":1728,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"both their personal career as well as the value of the company, which benefits them from a financial perspective. And so I think there are ways to get over to over the hesitancy hesitancy. But you have to be really precise about what the hesitancy is, address it heads on, and then kinda say what we call, like, say the stinky fish in the room, which is people are afraid they're gonna be replaced with AI. People are afraid that they're just gonna be asked to grind out more work and more PRs and more features and more and more and more and more with less, less, less, less, less. If you can say those things and you can address them, you can hit them heads on, and then hopefully you can get over some hesitancy and get back to building. I love it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":70,"time":"29:22","seconds":1762,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I've also heard you describe, junior engineers with AI as, perhaps a loaded gun.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":71,"time":"29:31","seconds":1771,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"Can you expand on that a bit? Yeah. You look. I love them. Give me all day a like a kinda junior, early career engineer who's all in on AI, who knows every prompting trick in the book, who has tried every coding open source coding agent before you've even heard of it, who is, as I very gently say, like, too dumb to know better in terms of, like, what they can bite off and what they can't. Give it to me all day. You need those in your team. You need","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":72,"time":"30:00","seconds":1800,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"big early career energy because, you know, sometimes you get some magic out of that and it keeps the rest of the organization on its toes. And for folks that are early in their career that have those attributes, the advice that I would give to you is you have been given an incredible opportunity, and it is also wise to know what you don't know. It's just like super wise to know what you don't know. And so if you can go in and say,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":73,"time":"30:31","seconds":1831,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"you know, was bored last night, so I built an entire MCP for our app. I wanna put it on our public repo. And you know, but I'm not sure I handled auth right. Or is this gonna be maintainable for the labs team? Or and, like, just knowing what you don't know so you don't come to these, you know, code reviews or come with these proposals without a good sense of where you need to look around the corner, where you need advice, where you can learn,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-73","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":74,"time":"31:00","seconds":1860,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"you're just not gonna do well. I mean, I've I've heard plenty of my peers who have hired that sort of like cracked AI engineer who in an interview is like, can build this and that and answers the questions well, and you're fine if they use Cursor because it's great. And then you realize they're just shipping a bunch of code they do not understand and don't care to understand.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-74","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":75,"time":"31:18","seconds":1878,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"It's just a bad a bad a bad situation. And so, love early career, love a good AI powered YOLO, and, like, know what you don't know and know know how to grow your grow your own skills. You have this great, engineering tutor in AI, but you also have great mentors on how to work for the team, how to work in a big code base, how to solve scale problems, how to solve technical challenges, and I think you should take advantage of I really appreciate you bringing this broad perspective across","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-75","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":76,"time":"31:49","seconds":1909,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"how to enable an AI first team and how you've approached the transformation at LaunchDarkly. But perhaps most interesting for me is how you've been solo building an AI startup on the side, chat PRD. And you're moving at a velocity that would seem impossible to someone who was trying to do this while also having their main full job a couple of years ago. And you've said that everything you think of, you build in a week, you don't really have a product road map because, hey, I'm you're just shipping.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-76","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":77,"time":"32:28","seconds":1948,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"What's that experience been like? I think it is such an important experience. Again, it's probably the source of what makes me, as I said earlier, so paranoid. Like, what I stay up at night and think about is, like, what if there's a Claire out there that is just ripping in our product space? That makes me paranoid because as somebody who has built this myself and has a career that spans over two decades, like, I've done a venture founded startup myself. I've worked at many startups. I worked at large organizations. Like, it is different.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-77","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":78,"time":"33:01","seconds":1981,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"I raised capital ten years ago to build a product, and I swear on my life, I could probably build that product before lunchtime today again if I need to. Like, it's just totally different right now. And if you, as a leader, do not take a minute to really feel how different it is. Not can I get Cursor adopted by, like, finance and my engineering organization?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-78","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":79,"time":"33:28","seconds":2008,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"Can I get my PMs to write PRDs in in ChadGPT? Like, not that. Like, put your hands on a keyboard and feel how different it is. Put your hands on a keyboard and try to rebuild your own product. Like, until you feel that moment of, like, holy moly, it is so different right now, you really are just not gonna be prepared what for what's what's coming next. So I think that has been the most valuable thing about ChatPRD. I tell everybody,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-79","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":80,"time":"33:55","seconds":2035,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"I love ChatPRD. It's doing exceptionally well, better than I could ever expect. And if it goes to zero, it will have been worth it because I've I've learned this lesson. So this is like my number one piece of advice to people is learning how to build something like this and what it really takes and what it really doesn't take is super valuable even if you remain in larger organizations and bring those learnings to your kind of career in a in a larger org. Let's extrapolate","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-80","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":81,"time":"34:20","seconds":2060,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"this experience you've had and align it to the concern that you say it brings up for you of, hey. What if there is a Claire out there who's rebuilding our product right now? What are the biggest operational disruptions that you believe small AI native teams will cause for larger incumbent organizations?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-81","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":82,"time":"34:40","seconds":2080,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"I think, price disruption can be one of them. Right? You can offer some large percentage of feature capability for some small percentage of cost. That that can be one. I think perceived innovation velocity is another one. If you are just perceived at innovating at a lower pace than your competitors, whether or not your competitors are really operating at any scale in the market doesn't matter.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-82","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":83,"time":"35:06","seconds":2106,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"Optics, do have an impact, then you're gonna be perceived as, you know, a laggard company. I think that's something to really consider. And then talent attraction is another one, which is for as many AI skeptics as you have in an engineering organization, you have just as many people who want to build, you know, modern, best in class engineering skills. And if your organization does not provide those for them, then they're gonna go look elsewhere.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-83","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":84,"time":"35:33","seconds":2133,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. I think you're absolutely right that if you're not enabling folks to have the opportunity to learn, they will either be doing on the side and maybe not bringing those learnings to work, maybe they will, or they're gonna look for a new organization that's gonna enable them. Because the best engineers out there right now are fully aware of what is happening, and they are seeing","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-84","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":85,"time":"35:55","seconds":2155,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"this opportunity and can't afford to let it pass them by because most of them aren't retiring next year. Most of them have several years in their career, and they want to continue to be great. And many of them simply are curious and excited, if not both. So what would your advice be as we wrap up this conversation to the different categories of folks within their career? Let's say maybe,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-85","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":86,"time":"36:18","seconds":2178,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"you know, more junior engineers who are getting started, leaders who are are farther along, maybe they're director plus level, and then the folks who are that senior AIC to, like, maybe engineering manager team lead levels. How how would you advise those different groups to approach","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-86","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":87,"time":"36:36","seconds":2196,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"this AI movement? Yeah. So for early in career, I would say, you know, embrace your your natural enthusiasm for the new and share your learnings. I think the best things that maybe early in career folks bring into an organization is an experimentation mindset, a sort of fearlessness in trying things that maybe will require some work on the back end, but at least can get to to prototype version. Then really staying in touch with, like, the new hotness. What what's new out there? Share it. We we wanna know.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-87","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":88,"time":"37:10","seconds":2230,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"I think for leaders, this is the the the folks that I really wanna speak to, which is close your eyes and imagine what an engineering organization is really gonna look like in five years. What is it really gonna look like if you just cast all this forward? What's the shape of it? What are engineering managers going to do? Are we gonna have PMs? What tools are you gonna have? How is software gonna be built? How are you gonna attract talent? Cast forward to that, you know, five year future and then start preparing","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-88","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":89,"time":"37:38","seconds":2258,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"to get your organization there now. I think that's so important. It is yes. You have to worry about the day to day today, but you really need to figure out how this is all gonna shake out in a couple years and and get it figured out. And then those kinda like senior ICs, love them. My favorite group. So so I think you all are going to be the highest impact in this new era. Like, I actually have said this for a while now. I think this is the era of the super IC.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-89","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":90,"time":"38:05","seconds":2285,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"Like, you are gonna be able to get so much stuff done. You're gonna be able to have so much impact. You're gonna be able to command a very high salary because you have a combination of experience and, like, breadth of impact powered by tools. If you just lean in, like, this is your time. And guess what? Bonus. To make more money and get promoted, you don't have to manage people. What a treat. Like, what a treat.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-90","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":91,"time":"38:32","seconds":2312,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"You don't even have to have one on ones. You don't have to do, like, performance reviews. You don't have to deal with people's complaints. You can just, like, build stuff. And so I do think this is, like, the era of the super IC, especially senior ICs. I think leaders out there, you gotta figure out a path to pay them more money and give them better bigger titles without forcing them to take on teams.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-91","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":92,"time":"38:56","seconds":2336,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"And so I would say, like, embrace that era and figure out what you want the shape of your career to look like, during that time. You mentioned something","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-92","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":93,"time":"39:03","seconds":2343,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"which I wanna drill down on, which is, are we gonna have PMs in a few years? And we're already seeing this transition into AI PMs. And obviously, that's a bit of a nebulous term so far, but it certainly involves creating MVPs a lot faster. It certainly involves moving a lot faster and and changing the approach. What how do you see the role of a PM evolving","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-93","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":94,"time":"39:25","seconds":2365,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"within engineering organizations or disappearing? I mean, I famously murdered the career of PMs at Lenny's confer Lenny's conference last year, with my PM is dead talk that rattled a bunch of people. Look. I think the role is gonna change. I just fundamentally think the role is gonna change. I think there are going to be sort of two archetypes of product managers. I think they're gonna start to come from very different practices.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-94","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":95,"time":"39:50","seconds":2390,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"I think you're gonna have, like, the prototype manager that is much more of this, like, combo UX engineer PM who'd like to finds, like, product experiences and can get you to a high fidelity sense of what that product experience looks like and how it needs to technically operate very quickly. I think that's one attribute. And then I think for those that maybe are not that attribute or in in addition to attribute, you're gonna have these, like, very commercially","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-95","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":96,"time":"40:15","seconds":2415,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"minded GM style PMs who think a lot more about what market am I selling into, how am I making money, what is the positioning, All those sorts of things. And so I just think this, like, middle ground of, like, I'm the keeper of what users want. And, you know, I'm a people person, damn it. Sort of, like, I just talk to the engineers because the engineers can't talk to the designers, and the designers don't really wanna talk to the executives, and the executives don't really talk to the humans. Like, I just think that piece is just not a real,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-96","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":97,"time":"40:45","seconds":2445,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"like, a real robust enough job with enough impact when you take into consideration these tools. And so I do think the product manager role is gonna shift. I am building a product manager agent that I think can take a lot of those tasks off the plate off people's plates with Chat PRD, and then let them focus on things that I think humans are really good at. Talking to other humans, figuring out what they want,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-97","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":98,"time":"41:12","seconds":2472,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"selling, creative inspiration, unique user experiences, like special insights. I just think the more we can clear our minds of, the kinda like tactical day to day operation stuff and the more we can focus on, like, depth of creativity, better our products are gonna get. So I think it'll change. I will definitely be wrong for many years, and then suddenly I'll be right. So I look forward to that. I love confidence.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-98","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":99,"time":"41:38","seconds":2498,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I highly recommend folks go check out chatprd.ai and explore more of Claire's work. Claire, where else should our listeners go to learn more about you and to follow what you're up to? Yeah. I'm on x at Clairvaux,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-99","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":100,"time":"41:52","seconds":2512,"speaker":"Claire Vo","text":"also LinkedIn. That's my name. I'm on TikTok. We're reviving the TikTok. You heard it here first. I have chief product officer on TikTok, so look forward to that content. And then tune in to the how I AI","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-100","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":101,"time":"42:04","seconds":2524,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"podcast where I talk to other people about how they use AI. Fantastic. Well, Claire, it has been a distinct pleasure having you on the show here. Thank you for an entertaining and wide ranging conversation. I'm excited to think through some of your advice and implement it myself. So it's been a ton of fun, we really appreciate you having you on. Thanks so much. And for everyone listening,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-101","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo","episode":36,"guid":"3af0121d-f433-486a-a2ac-029967a2447d","episodeTitle":"How AI Velocity is Rewriting the Rules for Engineering Leaders | ChatPRD's Claire Vo","publishedAt":"2025-08-13","segmentIndex":102,"time":"42:24","seconds":2544,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"make sure you check out our YouTube to see so much more, me. Make sure you check out our YouTube to see so much more behind the scenes content. You can find it at RunGalileo on YouTube. There's demos, webinars, many more incredible podcasts with guests like Claire, and we'd love to have you there. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll see you next week.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/36-how-ai-velocity-is-rewriting-the-rules-for-engineering-leaders-chatprds-claire-vo/#t-102","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Marcel Santilli","text":"And what I started to realize was most people are really shitty at delegation. That's just the reality. They're horrible at sharing context. They're horrible at communicating their thoughts. They don't write or they don't write very well. So they don't organize their thoughts very well. They don't know how to bring people along. And so if you're pretty bad at delegating something to another human, you're probably going to be even worse at delegating it to AI.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:31","seconds":31,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Welcome back to Chain of Thought, everyone. If you are watching on YouTube, you have already figured out we are not in our homes recording today. We are in fact live in San Francisco. I'm delighted to be at the offices of GrowthX with their founder and CEO, Marcel Santilli. You may also know Marcel as the former CMO of Deepgram and the former CMO of Scale AI, which, I mean, if you pay attention to news at all, was just purchased by Meta, well, 49% of it was, for about $15,000,000,000.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":2,"time":"1:01","seconds":61,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So he knows a few things about scaling and building AI businesses. Not to mention, GrowthX is having incredible success. In just the first six months, they've already raised $12,000,000 from Moderna Ventures, and they've actually already scaled to 7,000,000 in revenue run rate in just six months, an incredible amount of growth. They have a unique perspective on how they're building their business with customers like Reddit,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:29","seconds":89,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Ramp, Webflow, Abnormal Security, and Galileo. You're fresh off a $12,000,000 raise. You are having so much success here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":4,"time":"1:39","seconds":99,"speaker":"Marcel Santilli","text":"Welcome to show, Marcel. It's great to see you. Yeah. Thanks. Awesome having you. This is our new headquarters,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":5,"time":"1:44","seconds":104,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I guess. You know? So it's always awesome to to hang out. Yeah. Yeah. It it's a ton of fun. We're really glad you had us down here, and always great to see you and catch up and hear about some of the incredible ideas that are percolating for you. Because you obviously have years of success, years of experience building businesses within the AI space, building businesses in general.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":6,"time":"2:04","seconds":124,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I'd love to kind of tell our audience, what does it take to build an AI native business? Yeah. I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":7,"time":"2:11","seconds":131,"speaker":"Marcel Santilli","text":"guess maybe I can go back a little bit and give a little background, right, and kind of how, what has informed my thinking. But pretty early on, I was at HashiCorp, we scaled that business open source. And so from I saw community building from the ground up and seeing the scalability of that kind of fast forward a little bit when I was Scale AI, obviously, I got this","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":8,"time":"2:35","seconds":155,"speaker":"Marcel Santilli","text":"awesome behind the scenes view into all these AI labs before things kind of started to blow up Totally. AI and kind of seeing what data they were using and whatnot. And, and scale is just a very unique business for, for different, different reasons. Won't get into, into that. But, and, but then at, at Deepgram, I was at this very unique position as well because there's, at the time, at least there's not that many companies that were,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":9,"time":"3:00","seconds":180,"speaker":"Marcel Santilli","text":"you know, had their own data centers, they were training their own models, they had their own in house data labeling operations, their own research teams, and serving their own models, having models as a service via an API. So it's a very, very unique business as well. And we built a startup program as part of that. And so I was, my team was running that startup program","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":10,"time":"3:23","seconds":203,"speaker":"Marcel Santilli","text":"and I just kind of got this view into things. And so from my years at scale and then Deepgram seeing all of that, one of the things I started to realize was there's this kind of big disconnect between, it felt like all the money, all the attention was going into these frontier models and training them more data, more compute and everything else. But from my experience doing conferences where we're interviewing a lot of these researchers and whatnot, you realize some of them actually never had a job. And what I mean by that is they never actually had to deliver on a revenue target or built a actual product. You know, these are researchers. These are amazing,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":11,"time":"4:00","seconds":240,"speaker":"Marcel Santilli","text":"super smart, smarter than you can imagine people, but they haven't actually apply and done the actual job. And so, you know, as, as a operator, you know, over the years, I think what, makes good operators is you having empathy for what does it take to do a good job, right? And what does it take to run a good company as well? And so a lot, it just felt like a lot of what was happening in AI was just building models, right? And so disconnected from actually applying that to, to real businesses.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":12,"time":"4:32","seconds":272,"speaker":"Marcel Santilli","text":"And here I am, I saw all this context. And then at Deepgram, it felt like it was closer to, you know, applying it to, to increase productivities of companies and help companies grow more efficiently. But then I think where things started to connect for me was when I just started building myself, you know, so I said, all right, let me just start stitching together. How do I go about doing great work?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":13,"time":"4:55","seconds":295,"speaker":"Marcel Santilli","text":"And I like to call it kind of the messy middle. How do I go about researching my audience? And I go and I research and ask these questions. What is the mental model that I have when I'm asking these questions? What are the sources of place or places I go for information? And then how do you process that information? How do you plan your work? How do you go execute against that plan? How do you iterate on, on that execution","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":14,"time":"5:20","seconds":320,"speaker":"Marcel Santilli","text":"and do a bunch of other things? And so what I started to realize was, as I was doing that, I was playing with the inputs. I was, you know, prompting it differently. I was, you know, adding more steps, changing how we were doing the plans and whatnot. And there was kind of this moment where I realized, well, you get to a point where actually what made me good at what I did could be pretty reproducible.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":15,"time":"5:44","seconds":344,"speaker":"Marcel Santilli","text":"Right. But it requires still a lot of work to apply these models in a way that actually can, can help you reproduce these plans. Right. And, and so for me, was the biggest disconnect was you see all these frontier models, they're gray, but it just felt like you're doing so much work to get them to be applied to more complex knowledge work. Right. And then here was seeing,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":16,"time":"6:09","seconds":369,"speaker":"Marcel Santilli","text":"like after doing a lot of this work, how it could be applied. And, and so that, you know, long story short, of led to GrowthX where at first I was just teaching people how to build these workflows and whatnot. I quickly realized there's a different way you can build companies, you know, and we can get, I'm sure we'll, we'll get into some of that. And, and so when I think about AI native,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":17,"time":"6:33","seconds":393,"speaker":"Marcel Santilli","text":"the way I kind of think about it is completely different. It's, to me, there's two principles and two skills, if you will, that are the most critical ones in, in, in how in AI native businesses. The first one is first principles thinking. And so how do you decompose things down to, to the very core foundation, the essence, and then rebuild it, but rebuild it in a different way. And then the second one is delegation.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":18,"time":"7:00","seconds":420,"speaker":"Marcel Santilli","text":"And what I started to realize was most people are really shitty at delegation. That's just the reality. They're horrible at sharing context. They're horrible at communicating their thoughts. They don't write, or they don't write very well. So, don't organize their thoughts very well. They don't know how to bring people along. And so, if you're pretty bad at delegating something to another human,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":19,"time":"7:22","seconds":442,"speaker":"Marcel Santilli","text":"you're probably going to be even worse at delegating it to AI. Right? And so if you don't have really good first principles thinking, and you don't know how to delegate, that is literally how to build an AI data business. You, if you're good at those two things, right? There is the infrastructure, there is the stitching everything together, but it's just completely rethinking every function in the company, you know, and we can go into examples how we're doing recruiting differently, how we're doing every function in the company","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":20,"time":"7:49","seconds":469,"speaker":"Marcel Santilli","text":"differently,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":21,"time":"7:50","seconds":470,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"But it comes down to those two, two things, I think. There are so many great threads to pull on from And what you just I love that. I'm like, okay, do we have more time? I, first of all, I love this insight of, look, it's great to build a great model. That's fantastic. It has a lot of value in the moment, but there's always a new frontier model coming. You're always chasing the dragon.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":22,"time":"8:13","seconds":493,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Whereas if you build a great business, you may be able to have more durability, whether or not you are always using your own frontier model. There are other models you can leverage and you can build a great workflow. You can actually understand your customers in-depth and build a great business around that. And that seems like that's the approach that you're taking here at GrowthX today.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":23,"time":"8:33","seconds":513,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"The other interesting thing you bring up here, which I think maybe relates to this point, is this idea of like, look, we have brilliant people who are enabling the AI revolution. We have brilliant researchers. Some of them have come on the show. Some are coming on the show soon. But, they may not always be the best folks to build these AI businesses. They are crucial to doing so, but you also need great delegators. You need people who are incredible people managers","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":24,"time":"8:59","seconds":539,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"who can then apply those skills to, Hey, how do I manage all these different AI workflows, AI agents? How are you approaching recruiting and scaling GrowthX differently than you would in another business? Yeah. So, I think we're set up quite differently. So, started with services and the main reason we started with services is because","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":25,"time":"9:19","seconds":559,"speaker":"Marcel Santilli","text":"services are a forcing function to figure out what does it take to do a great job And what does it take to deliver high quality work outputs at the end of the day? Right? So, someone is actually paying you for a work output, not for the tool that maybe you can do the work, but actual the output of that work, and hopefully that that is informed by good strategy,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":26,"time":"9:42","seconds":582,"speaker":"Marcel Santilli","text":"then that is what is actually valuable to businesses. Right? And so the process of doing that, what do you do? You hire a service provider, an agency, a consultant to help deliver that work output. That person normally, or company or agency, they're normally the experts, right? And so for us, the reason we started with services is because we want to understand what is that messy middle to deliver great work products.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":27,"time":"10:12","seconds":612,"speaker":"Marcel Santilli","text":"And so, just to give a very concrete example. So let's say you go to a Michelin star restaurant and you have this Michelin star chef delivers this amazing dish right in front of you. And you just look at it and it was like, this is amazing. And you take all the videos necessary, all the pictures and everything, and even come up with the perfect ingredient list and it's all right there. And then you bring someone and you say, here's all the pictures of the final product. And here's all the ingredients.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":28,"time":"10:39","seconds":639,"speaker":"Marcel Santilli","text":"Help me replicate this. You would not be able to do that. Right? So why is that? Like, it's not about the quality of the ingredients. It's not even about how much detail you have in the final output. The final output is a snapshot of something. Right? And, and so in order to replicate great, you need the messy middle, you need the try on errors, and there's not only one way to achieve greatness.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":29,"time":"11:05","seconds":665,"speaker":"Marcel Santilli","text":"And so knowledge work is that. And I think what, what we started to realize was just like how important that messy middle is to, and there's no easy, non messy way to capture that. You're not going to build this UI that some designer and product team is, you know, off in the corner designing and building for six months, then they launch and then it goes out and all of a sudden, like a new frontier model or something, some paradigm changes. And it's like, you're six months behind, right? Already. And so instead,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":30,"time":"11:38","seconds":698,"speaker":"Marcel Santilli","text":"when you think about like, forget the UI, forget the form factor by which you're delivering it, just sign up to deliver the thing. And then figure out what does it take to deliver in a more AI native way, but not in a way that's like, I want to replace humans or I only want to use AI or I don't want to use AI. It's more about like, doesn't matter to us. It doesn't, it really doesn't matter. The way we think about it is like, where are the places that you absolutely need expert interventions?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":31,"time":"12:04","seconds":724,"speaker":"Marcel Santilli","text":"Where are the places where you need to shape how to do the work? And, and then what are the places where you do need the humans in order to get higher and better quality inputs from your customers, you know, in order to deliver better work products. And over time that, that mix is going to change. And I think, you know, we have a lot in the works, but I think there's, the form, the current form factor, at least for knowledge work","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":32,"time":"12:29","seconds":749,"speaker":"Marcel Santilli","text":"is, is not there. And I think there, there's, there needs to be a paradigm shift. If you think about what's happening with coding agents, you know, Cursor, Windsurf, AugmentCode, and, and a lot of these companies like they're, you know, in the, in, in just like the day to day of our engineers and how critical these tools are. And they're truly like professional tools that are making engineers and builders more productive. And then you compare what's happening to knowledge work of copying and pasting context over to ChatDPT or Claude and, you know, and you just kind of like, it feels like you're working for a chat window. Like, it's like, I work for this chat window now. Like, and I'm constantly trying to like wrangle and wrestle it to do the thing I needed, and I have to constantly tell her the same thing. It's like, my wife like, Did you not hear what I just told you yesterday? It's like, it's like, I feel like that's me, you know? So I have more empathy for everyone who says that to me, you know? I'm joking, but Oh, man. And and I think there there needs to be kind of some kind of paradigm shift there.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":33,"time":"13:32","seconds":812,"speaker":"Marcel Santilli","text":"Well, first of all, I'll say,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":34,"time":"13:34","seconds":814,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"listeners, you heard it here, but when I, in the future, steal this great comparison to a Michelin star restaurant in order to describe how knowledge work and the messy middle works in the future, just pretend you didn't hear Marcel say it first because I'm gonna I'm gonna borrow that for sure. I'll I'll start there. But secondly, I, I just really love that you are taking us back to, as you said earlier, first principles thinking.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":35,"time":"14:01","seconds":841,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And in this case, yes, you're using services and deep engagements to understand and then build products that can help solve these problems. But more than that, you're taking on first principles business thinking of saying, we're going to be customer obsessed. We're going to understand our customer. We're going to get close to the bare metal. We're to understand what it takes to ship for them. And we've been doing that a bit with Galileo where we,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":36,"time":"14:25","seconds":865,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"you know, you may know us as an observability and evaluations platform. And you're probably hearing us use the phrase reliability a lot more. A lot of us are starting to use this phrase reliability because we've realized that observability evaluations, while crucial, are means to what we're actually solving for customers, which is that reliability challenge.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":37,"time":"14:45","seconds":885,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I see you doing exactly that for knowledge work and exactly that for growth teams saying, look, we're going to come in and figure out like what your problem is. We're going to actually solve it for you. And then we're going to break that down and say, how can we solve it better? And that is such a first principles approach as you put it. And it clearly opens up a","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":38,"time":"15:08","seconds":908,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"bevy of pathways for you in the future. What do you see as kind of the next stage of GrowthX's development as you continue to dive deeper into AI enabled workflows, AI products and much more?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":39,"time":"15:20","seconds":920,"speaker":"Marcel Santilli","text":"So, I'll, I can share a little bit of kind of how we're thinking. And I think a lot of the, a lot of these things will connect better over, over the next few months as we share more. But, so think of it as what are we trying to do? We, I worked at HashiCorp and maybe, maybe some of the audience are familiar with like Terraform, right? Like, so when you think about infrastructure as code, and Terraform, like almost like a config plan, right?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":40,"time":"15:46","seconds":946,"speaker":"Marcel Santilli","text":"That, that you're applying, And we're almost thinking of it similarly. And so, when we say workflows, I don't even know if workflows is the right word to use anymore, but for us, it's like, how do you codify what your best people do? Right? And in our case, the, our best people are the people delivering and ultimately accountable and being the drivers to delivering a work product, right? That work product in our case can be an article,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":41,"time":"16:11","seconds":971,"speaker":"Marcel Santilli","text":"it can be a landing page, it can be copy, it can be research on something, a topic, right, for, for a customer. And so when you, when you think about that, we're like, we're essentially building the engine that bill helps build those plans. So, just to kind of, you know, give an example here. What does it take to do a really good piece of content? Right. For us, as we started to break it down, it's like, first I need to understand all the context needed. So we call those artifacts.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":42,"time":"16:42","seconds":1002,"speaker":"Marcel Santilli","text":"Right. So, so then we're starting to say, Hey, Galileo, what does Galileo do? What audiences do you serve? What do your competitors do? Like, how are you positioned in the market? What do people say about you? Who are for the audience we want to serve? Let's go understand them better. What are their top concerns? You know, what's their day to day like and all those things. And then you're generating a lot of these artifacts and those artifacts are always kind of being regenerated.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":43,"time":"17:09","seconds":1029,"speaker":"Marcel Santilli","text":"Right. And so then as we go through that, we under, we saw that there's workflows that we could build to make generating these artifacts better and better. Right. Now you have the context. Now you got to go figure out where do I fetch the right inputs. So that can be retrieval based on a knowledge base we already built for Galileo, or that can be, Hey, let me go and,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":44,"time":"17:28","seconds":1048,"speaker":"Marcel Santilli","text":"not just do a Google search, but maybe I'm going use Perplexity's API and grab, not just take Perplexity's answer, but I'm going to take the 100 citations it gives me, and I'm going to go citation by citation and see if it's relevant based on the context I have and based on the job at hand. Right. So as you go through that and you formulate a plan and you execute against that plan, what we started to realize is like,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":45,"time":"17:51","seconds":1071,"speaker":"Marcel Santilli","text":"this is way better done in code. Right? Yeah. And coding agents just got a lot, a lot better. And the reason coding agents got better is because they have all the messy middle completely out in the open. So you look at a repo, you there's open source projects, every pull request, every common documentation is actually there. Like I cannot name a single, if you take a, one of the best open source projects out there and you look at how clean those documentations are for some of them. And, and then you compare to internal knowledge bases inside of companies for how things get done. Yes. I dare you to go to a sales department and find a document that actually describe how the sales process works, that even remotely","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":46,"time":"18:34","seconds":1114,"speaker":"Marcel Santilli","text":"as good as a doc for an open source project. Right? And, and good luck finding the pull request for that, or how you describe, how you go about doing good work. What are all the learnings? What are all the back and forth? The messy middle, right? Yeah. And so for us, like, what we started doing is like, we started with the service, then we build a coding agent that builds workflows in code, and then a runtime layer that can run that. And so there are steps where we might be running hundreds of things in parallel, right? Last month we did over half a million runs of workflows. And each one of those runs can be, you know, ten hours of human work, but that's not what we're focused on. What we're focused on is if you're an expert in a topic, I don't want you to spend the next hundred hours of your time","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":47,"time":"19:15","seconds":1155,"speaker":"Marcel Santilli","text":"reading a 100 articles on a, on a subject, knowing that 89 of those might not be relevant. Right. I want you to ingest that information. Then I wanted to figure out like, where is the right place for human interventions? Right? Or expert intervention, however you want to, want to think about it. And so for us, that's one of the things we're building right now is a expert hub, if you will, or it's an orchestrator layer that takes these workflows that are running in code, right? And figures out where should the interventions be?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":48,"time":"19:46","seconds":1186,"speaker":"Marcel Santilli","text":"What kind of intervention should it be? Is it an open ended thing? Edit this? Is it a comment on this? Approve or reject? Is it a multiple multiple choice? Is it a ranking thing? You know, is it more of like a reinforcement learning task or, or, or what is it? Right? Yeah. And, but then the really interesting thing is as you start to learn from that, you can start using LLM as a judge in the loop to figure out if those interventions are being good. But not only that, you can actually teach the people doing the interventions to do a better job. So let's say I give you an outline of an article that is for abnormal security, right? One of our customers in the security space and it's very technical, right? And the person doing the intervention, maybe they know something about security,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":49,"time":"20:29","seconds":1229,"speaker":"Marcel Santilli","text":"excuse me, but they might not be the ultimate expert. But you can say, Hey, by the way, here's some reminders. Here's some guidelines, here's some things you should watch for as you review this. Right? So now AI is actually, are actually helping the humans do better interventions, right? And add more value and connect the dots for them or remind them how to do it. And the opposite is also true, right? The, the right human that you calibrated and that, you know, they're an expert in something can look at something and go","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":50,"time":"20:59","seconds":1259,"speaker":"Marcel Santilli","text":"A versus B, right? And you do enough of those and now you have data, enough data to start to fine tune these, what is now a workflow into essentially task specific domain specific company specific models, or doing a mixture of expert type of approach. Right. And so, but, but the opposite doesn't really work. So today, if you go into some of these models that have a lot of chain of thought, you know, and they do a lot of thinking and you start to see them describing the thinking they're going through, you just want to hit stop, right? In Claude Code, you can do that. You can use escape,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":51,"time":"21:32","seconds":1292,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"right? And, and so like that's, those are some of the layers we're thinking about. And then the final one is kind of the, the learn engine that kind of layers on top of the whole thing. I love it. Marcel, I'm so excited to see what comes out of GrowthX NEXT. You have such an incredible team you've built here, and I've had a sneak peek at some of the products you're doing as well. And it's really exciting. So definitely make sure you're checking out GrowthX,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":52,"time":"21:55","seconds":1315,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"for all your growth needs. We're big fans of them, and you can also follow Marcel on LinkedIn where he puts out incredible content about things like the rise of voice as a modality in AI, and so much more excellent advice for folks who are building and scaling AI businesses. I also just wanna call out before we end here, like Yeah. I love that you brought up this coding example because,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":53,"time":"22:15","seconds":1335,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"as you point out, there's great documentation. There's a great dataset out there with all these different repos. And we had the co founders of Poolside on the podcast a few weeks back, and they talked about this. They're like, We think we can solve coding first because, you know, the English language is is messy. It's it's fun. It's useful, but it is not as clear. Whereas, hey, look, we have a ton of incredible code that is clear. We have good examples. We have bad examples. We have clear best practices.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":54,"time":"22:39","seconds":1359,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"There's such an opportunity though to go beyond that with knowledge work. You know, coding is just the start of where we are gonna enable people around the world to build faster, build more, and build better. And I'm incredibly excited to see what GrowthX does on that. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. It's it's great to have you on Chain Thoma. Yeah. Thanks for thanks for having me. Yeah. It's our pleasure. We're gonna have to swing back around, do another recording here once you move to your new offices after you, you know, you hit that 100,000,000 ARR mark. We'll we'll come back and do another recording. So That sounds good. And for folks who are listening, make sure that you are watching this episode on YouTube because you're not gonna get the full experience without it. I I have to say, Marcel, I you still have to have your Charlie cameo, though, which you you almost forgot to do. So","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":55,"time":"23:17","seconds":1397,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"This is Charlie. We","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":56,"time":"23:19","seconds":1399,"speaker":"Marcel Santilli","text":"Do do do we just should we just leave it as a mystery? We'll just leave it as mystery. Yeah. I Cool. Gonna mask it here. Maybe we'll do a behind the scenes telling telling people Yeah. I like it. I like story it. Behind Charlie. Yeah. Well, thank you all. Thank you everyone for listening.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli","episode":35,"guid":"bb261608-b2de-42d3-9cee-6d990723b5a8","episodeTitle":"Building an AI-Native Startup | GrowthX's Marcel Santilli","publishedAt":"2025-08-06","segmentIndex":57,"time":"23:31","seconds":1411,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"We'll see you again soon, and make sure that you have subscribed to the podcast on your platform of choice. And can you leave a review, leave a comment. We really appreciate it. It helps folks find the show. Marcel, thank you again for coming on. Thanks.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/35-building-an-ai-native-startup-growthxs-marcel-santilli/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"I think the whole sort of animosity, like, health care doesn't like technology. Oh, doctors are are tech laggards. They don't get it. I just think it's, like, super boring. It's a little bit like telling NVIDIA ten years in, like, this whole, like, GPU thing, like, you've been pretty slow at it so far. Is it really worth doing?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:19","seconds":19,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"We are back on Chain of Thought. I am your host, Conor Bronsdon. And today, I'm delighted to have Andreas Cleve, CEO and cofounder of Corti with me. Andreas, welcome to the show. Great to see you. Hey, thanks for having me. Today, we're diving into a sector where AI promises immense transformation and where Corti are already replacing single use apps with medical grade AI. That's right. We're talking about healthcare.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":2,"time":"0:44","seconds":44,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"There's unique challenges to actually using AI within healthcare, but there are amazing opportunities. The field is often cited as a high stakes environment where the margin for error is virtually non existent. We're dealing with people's lives. How do we responsibly and effectively integrate AI into such a critical domain? We often hear about healthcare as this scary place for AI. So I'm excited to unpack everything today with you, Andreas.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:14","seconds":74,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"To start, can you give us a brief overview of where AI adoption is currently here in June 2025 in healthcare?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":4,"time":"1:23","seconds":83,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"Yeah. It's a great place to start. So healthcare, as most of, laypeople, me included, knows of it is riddled with language tasks, so roughly 40% of salary dollars spent is spent on work that relates to language, so obviously talking to patients, the part we love all, especially us patients, but also writing notes, going to EHRs, writing letters, writing quotes, invoicing,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":5,"time":"1:48","seconds":108,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"it's all the lifespan of healthcare, there's a lot of language and text tasks, and obviously we have a new thing in the arsenal with all these transformer based models that are very, very decent at doing language tasks, so what we're seeing is a lot of adoption in how can we take some of the cold hands based language jobs that's like tapping away at your keyboard when you should really be focusing on the patient and trying to see how we can get these models to do some of that work. It's so interesting because","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":6,"time":"2:20","seconds":140,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I think my perception at least is that there are barriers, regulatory or otherwise, to tech adoption in healthcare. We may see surgical equipment get adopted rapidly in some cases, but often there are technologies that are coming out of Silicon Valley, for example, that maybe take longer to actually get adopted. Are we seeing that with AI, particularly with the capability of general purpose models","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":7,"time":"2:50","seconds":170,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and the opportunity for them to, you know, transform all these 40% of tasks you mentioned, how can they reasonably meet clinical and compliance standards?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":8,"time":"3:02","seconds":182,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"Yeah. It's a fair question. I'm probably going to rant now, but I think I, having lived in SF as well, I think this whole narrative about healthcare being bad at adopting technology, it's just really boring and it's riddled with lack of ambition. And I mean, I get it. If you used to build great SaaS tools for your marketing team who, as part of their work, spending all day at a computer and they're adopting stuff fast, coming to healthcare feels super slow. And I hear so many people be like, that sort of ruins this as an investable class, an opportunity,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":9,"time":"3:33","seconds":213,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"and it's like they won't adopt. But if you if we sort of stop for a moment and think about health care, you go to your hospital or your clinic, especially your hospital, but go look around. How much technology do you see? I sit here at our offices in Copenhagen where we have, what, 70 researchers doing machine learning, and I would bet you that per person there's more devices in a in a health care institution in per per room per clinic than there is here. Totally. So they adopt tons of technology, and they do it quite fast,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":10,"time":"3:59","seconds":239,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"but they have a pretty high bar for doing it. So I think the whole sort of animosity like health care doesn't like technology, oh, doctors are are tech laggards. They don't get it. I just think it's like super boring. It's a little bit like telling NVIDIA ten years in like this whole like GPU thing, like you've been pretty slow at it so far. Is it really worth doing? I think there's just such an opportunity building something like","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":11,"time":"4:20","seconds":260,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"life's worth worth that is really compounding every year. That is massive because technology is just it's a different game here. It's a game about being taken for granted. So, like, if you're lying on your bed and you're a patient, like and somebody comes in and says, hey. We're gonna do an MRI scan. Like, do you think it would be cool? I'm sure you wouldn't, so it's a very facetious, rhetorical","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":12,"time":"4:40","seconds":280,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"question, but, obviously, you wouldn't be like, hey. I wanna see your ISO standards first. So in a universe where you actually wanna take for granted that everybody is up to their absolute best, they're delivering the best work they can do, there's their lives work every time they meet you. They are doing the best thing with the best tools that are most applied to to your case, and they've been tested into oblivion. If that all has to be true, then we can't also, while we're sort of in, like, kombucha mode and we don't feel any pain, be all worried about, oh, like, health care, will it ever change? Health care doesn't necessarily need to change. It needs help.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":13,"time":"5:14","seconds":314,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"And that's, I think, sort of one of sort of the hidden secrets here is, like, healthcare is only for for for boring, stubborn people who actually wanna have impact and wanna be taken for granted.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":14,"time":"5:24","seconds":324,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I love the passion you bring to this because you're completely right. There is a lack of ambition, as you put it, where often we have another B2B SaaS product, then, oh, it can't get into healthcare because it's not needed there, or it's not a great fit, or simply because they don't wanna deal with personal identifying information and healthcare standards around that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":15,"time":"5:50","seconds":350,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And yet, there is so much technology in healthcare today. And I know you have some great statistics about where the rubber meets the road here. How many physicians or anyone for that matter are using AI on a daily basis in the medical field. So what are the real world outcomes when using purpose built models like Corti?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":16,"time":"6:13","seconds":373,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"Yeah. So so in the first generation of AI models built on us are general purpose stuff. We're seeing a lot of pickup in certain parts of health care. Now we get a little bit tedious and boring here, but a lot of people think about health care as this big sort of monolith. It's definitely not. And then they look at some of these startups and some of them amazing companies, like, well, one of my favorites is a Bridge, an American fantastic company who offers","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":17,"time":"6:36","seconds":396,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"AI scribe and AI assistant and copilot technology. They've built an entire platform to to do some of the best physician augmentation. They're seeing like, any SaaS founder would be envious of their their kind of growth, and they're, like, really, really good at outpatient care. There's also really cool companies really good like RadAI, American company doing documentation augmentation in radiology. They're a super cool company. They're really deep in inpatient radiology. I guess some outpatient as well, but they're focused elsewhere. We have a lot of like, we just saw a fantastic IPO of Hinge. I'm sure Hinge is using tons of AI. It's a completely different work zone. So the point is just the rubber meets the road a little bit differently everywhere because health care is not just one monolith trillion dollar admin market. It's a thousand billion dollar opportunities.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":18,"time":"7:20","seconds":440,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"So it's very, very different, but what we do see a lot is that in cases where there is a very large language load to get mandate, it's like, imagine you're my doctor and you wanna make sure you're sending me somewhere else. That might be to a pharmacy or it might be some more treatment. To make sure you're doing the right thing, you have a host of things you need to take care of. Insurance,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":19,"time":"7:41","seconds":461,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"am I covered or not? What's the right path? What's the right medical data, clinical data? Is there any research I need to double click on? And what's the procedures that usually offer to somebody like me with the picture of symptoms I I'm presenting? All of these things has to go into sort of one assessment, and in these cases, usually, we see a lot of notes and a lot of note bloat.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":20,"time":"8:03","seconds":483,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"In these cases, AI is really meeting a hungry group of users who are spending way too much time late at night and what, like, many cope their pyjama time thinking about what happened at 2PM today and what did I say and what happened. I had meet meet a lot of health care professionals who are in those cases where they did they had back to back to back all day, and now sitting at night, actually they should be spending time reading out stories to the kids but they're sitting there tapping away at the keyboard and those are the kind of cases that's really working,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":21,"time":"8:30","seconds":510,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"that's getting picked up where you can get a far and far and long way with with the general purpose models out there. But we're just scratching the surface still.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":22,"time":"8:38","seconds":518,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. I love this description of health care as a thousand billion dollar opportunities because you're right. So many outsiders do see healthcare as a monolith despite there being a ton of differentiation. How would you advise technologists who are interested in the space, who maybe are looking to drive AI adoption, to rethink their perception of healthcare as an industry,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":23,"time":"9:06","seconds":546,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"to address these diverse markets that are more granular across the entire scope of healthcare?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":24,"time":"9:14","seconds":554,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"I think the first thing comes down to obviously wanting to do it. It's not easy work, but that's the entire point. It's not supposed to be cheesy. It's supposed to be really hard, but it's really rewarding to do when it's working, and obviously there's some fantastic companies built in healthcare and health check and health, being among them is a very profitable opportunity, so there is both the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":25,"time":"9:35","seconds":575,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"personal part and there's obviously the vision impact part, so first off, you need to be willing to spend the time. Secondly, I think it's important to remember that when we sit here and we enjoy spending time in design and we discuss sort of what new cool design tools can I augment my Figma stuff with, it's a core part of our designers' workflow to think about which tools they're using?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":26,"time":"9:56","seconds":596,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"It's not a core part of work for a physician, hopefully to think a lot about which part of the plugins from our EHR providers have my boss's bosses bought bought. They should be thinking a ton about that. Obviously, hopefully they get what they need. The point is the the true goal here is not for you to to be sort of on the dance floor. It's to make sure the people who are on the dance floor, they have the most great time on the dance floor, and that's very different from other SaaS products which which are much more sort of high identity product for the users. So I've interviewed tons of salespeople and many of them are like very religious about do I use Salesforce or HubSpot.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":27,"time":"10:30","seconds":630,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"Obviously that happens in healthcare too because switching costs are high, but it's not because I like the physicians we meet take like a great pride in being an Epic person versus being a Cerner person. It's because they're good at it. I think that that's sort of a second part that that's really, really important. But if you sort of take those fees, it's slow. It's cumbersome. It's a delicate balance. There's a lot of big vendors. It's an integrated system. Your job is getting out of the way. Your job is to be taken for granted. Your job is to be invisible.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":28,"time":"10:56","seconds":656,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"The job is to make the best workflow tool that specialists in that workflow adore because you understand every small click, every angle, every shadow, every shade, every second. You've cut down to the bare metal of it because it ain't didn't come here for you. They came here to do work, and your job is to get out of the way. But if all of these things feel super meaningful,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":29,"time":"11:17","seconds":677,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"this last thing I would would would offer everybody to to to trust is that, yes, you're seeing fantastic companies who are scaling super fast in the application layer, workflow layer, and they're building amazing businesses, but there's plenty of room. There is so much work that isn't solved yet and there is so much work going on that is not close hearted to the Hippocratic Oath that somebody took to come and treat patients, help patients, be more for patients, and that still has to be tackled. So our what we're seeing is is a massive","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":30,"time":"11:46","seconds":706,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"explosion of more and more specialized health care tools, and they're beating many of the more general tools because they can be so much better in the workflow. There's so much more that needs to be built. This is so interesting because it","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":31,"time":"11:59","seconds":719,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"aligns with stuff I've heard you say before, this idea that the best tech in health care is trusted but invisible, that, you know, it addresses these multitude of use cases you're talking about, and yet instead of being, you know, in your face as one of the latest innovations, as I think many of us are used to, it is purpose built and specialized and quiet. How can","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":32,"time":"12:23","seconds":743,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"AI tools like Corti help to shift that perception?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":33,"time":"12:28","seconds":748,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"Where there's a lot of alpha here is a lot about making sure that the last mile is very valuable. So obviously, all these AIs allows for lower entry barriers, and we're seeing some of the health care explosion we're seeing in other markets too. There's more, I'm sure, CRMs than ever before, and many of them, as you're assuming, are being built on AI instead of classic","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":34,"time":"12:47","seconds":767,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"database structures as they used to be built in today. That's not different here. It's the same thing in health care, but the real winners here are getting very, very deep in the workflows, and I think something that people don't see a lot is they are actually growing like weeds. So we have we're big fans of a Swedish company called Tandem. There's an Australian company called HeidiHealth as well. These companies are awesome companies, and they're growing like weeds.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":35,"time":"13:08","seconds":788,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"That's because they really, really understand their users, and they're making all these decisions to make sure they get them. And I think that's sort of an important point, and it's that allows them to be much more like a PLG bottom ups motion. I think that's the fear for a lot of people thinking about doing a health care startup. They're thinking, oh, damn. Then I need to do enterprise sales and be in all these meetings and, like, go go to Minnesota","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":36,"time":"13:29","seconds":809,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"and partner up with some arcade company and all that stuff. Actually, you can build a really, really good company bottoms up in health care today. PLG works. Pickup is real. Doctors are buyers. They are tech forward. They are not the laggards you think, and there are companies around the globe in every specialty that's growing like wheat right now. We have a fantastic company we work with in Germany called Nelly. Nelly is one of the coolest company I've seen that's really owning sort of the dental revenue","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":37,"time":"13:54","seconds":834,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"cycle management part and they're growing like it's crazy growth that we're seeing. So I think it's sort of under the radar a little bit. I think some investors know, but I think generally people think that still healthcare is monolith, enterprise sales, boring, slow. It doesn't have to be. But it's obviously if if you wanna get the price for it, you need to you're stuck here for more than than average fund cycle in VC universe.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":38,"time":"14:15","seconds":855,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It's so interesting because there is this idea or maybe misconception that I think is at odds with a lot of tech companies addressing the healthcare market, where many of them think more about how how do I automate doctor time out? How do I try to cut down the number of doctors and nurses that we need by cutting away these tasks? And A, that's not going to land","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":39,"time":"14:40","seconds":880,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"super well with these extremely overworked and very busy medical professionals. But also it often misses the mark of what clinicians actually want and need in order to address the needs of their patients, and to address their own workload needs. So, it seems like there are many builders that are underestimating how little interest many clinicians may have in AI itself. They, as you point out, just want software to get out of way and work for them. They wanna solve a problem like many,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":40,"time":"15:13","seconds":913,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"many users do. But often, I think us we as builders assume, oh, you really wanna get into the details of this. No. They we wanna solve their problem. They want their problem solved. So how do you bridge this gap, especially when AI needs to work more like electricity, seamless, embedded, and invisible?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":41,"time":"15:31","seconds":931,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"Yes. So so our our job is we're we're selling AI infrastructure and models to people who wanna build healthcare applications with AI inside, but they want to be using purpose built stuff that isn't rate limited, that has high accuracy, that knows the medical terminology, that's built for embedding into these systems, that has unique endpoints and SDKs for revenue cycle management or MVN documentation, all the things going on in health care. And that's where we come in, so we wanna be that infrastructure and and do it at a price point that's super, super competitive with much less accurate general purpose models. That's what we hope. A lot of people start building on OpenAI or whatever, and OpenAI is a fantastic company. They'll build fantastic things, but at some point, they might wanna get into parts of the workflow, the problems that are daunting, healthcare specific, and there we feel we have a real opportunity to help,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":42,"time":"16:17","seconds":977,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"And I think it's led me down such a rabbit hole as sort of a builder wanting to build for builders, meeting so many of our customers' customers. So I had a case not that long ago working with some of the working with, in this case, one of the coolest, I think, biased radiology companies in the world. So they're doing radiology equipment and software. And we met a","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":43,"time":"16:38","seconds":998,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"lot of their customers, so actual radiologists. I obviously know what radiology is before coming there, but I've never, like, been in in the room where they do their work. Right? And it was amazing work. And I had heard so many startup pitches in my time both in New York and SF and in Europe, like, oh, we're automating away for, like, radiology reporting. There's no radiologist anymore. They don't have a job. I've seen that title so many places. It's just so funny getting into the room. Then you're seeing a person, and you've been told by media and startup pitches like, radiology radiologists","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":44,"time":"17:05","seconds":1025,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"wants to, like, examine these images. They just wanna get AI to do it and all that stuff. That's not my experience. My experience is that we have, in this case, a scoop of radiologists who are like Sherlock Holmes. They can glance at something, and then they go full minority report on it. They can find small, small, small nuggets of gold in there, and they do it like decision machines all day, and they enjoy it. They're good at it. Could they get AI to help them? Is there enough radiologists?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":45,"time":"17:30","seconds":1050,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"They could definitely get somebody to help them. And, yeah, there's definitely not enough radiologists, and AI could plug some holes. But the point is I think the narrative always becomes just like a plug and replace. But I think that sort of the big missed opportunity, both sort of from a capital allocation problem and from sort of a startup problem, is that if we really went out there and we're allowed in the room and see how all this works, the job is a people's job. It's health care. It's not like health task or health solve. It's health care because care is sort of the continuum. You need to do it. And a lot of people working, they actually enjoy it unlike many people in Silicon Valley thinks like it's like it's so like non rewarding to be in health care because they've read all the bylines in in in the COVID coverage. True. COVID was probably not very rewarding for many because the system was so rigged against so many providers, but I think a lot of people still go to healthcare.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":46,"time":"18:17","seconds":1097,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"I have a lot in my family at least. They went there to have impact, to do care, to make change, to spend time with patients. I think an example like this would be all just like, again, I know they're not exactly like the professionals with the most patient time, but they're really good at what they do. So the job isn't here coming in saying, you, like, you trained seventeen years to be the world's best decision machine, Sherlock Holmes here, and you're not doing like, you shouldn't be doing it. It should just be automated away. The job is to make sure that we can make them be even more productive doing it, and that might be AI doing some, they do some, it might be AI augmenting, it might be AI doing all the reporting, that's what we think,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":47,"time":"18:51","seconds":1131,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"but ultimately, it's about listening to where the market is going and how to deliver more care. It's not to sort of deliver more continue, and I think in this case, it actually impacts the capital allocation questions or the the Silicon Valley narrative as well because if we think about it, money will just flow where they get the most ROI, and obviously, ROI with BAI does all of it, but in the again,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":48,"time":"19:13","seconds":1153,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"health care is still a care continuum, so if there's a lot of people doing care, but some of them are augmented by health care, they're more productive. That means they have better ROI in their time. That means more money will flow to these departments that are more AI enabled, which in turn will mean they can hire more people, and if they can get them as prolific in AI, they will create more outcomes. More people will flow there. There'll be more money, more opportunity, better care, better pay, and all of sudden, the best people will be working there, and those organizations were AI enabled will grow. They won't shrink away to, like, some weird, like, dystopian","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":49,"time":"19:41","seconds":1181,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"future where there's no care at all. I love this example of radiology because they're such a high impact specialty, and it's clear that adoption is occurring in this area. Let's unpack this a bit more. Can you tell us more for our audience who may not be aware? What exactly is AI doing to enable radiologists today, where do you see the future? You mentioned admin work. What else?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":50,"time":"20:07","seconds":1207,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"So I can at least talk about the cases we're heavily involved in, and I, we are not specialists in radiology. We have people here who work here who really know the space, but our customers are world class. And what they come to us saying is that there's actually a host of products that are sort of last generation AIs, so classic, maybe supervised machine learning or maybe even just like brute force models that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":51,"time":"20:29","seconds":1229,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"did stuff like dictation, and imagine you're sitting there looking at a screen and a radiologist like say, field number two, put that stuff and it's an eight BAT and there is this kind of fracture, and you're talking medical language, but you're also talking to an interface. You're telling, denoting where mouse go, where to click, what to do. Obviously, that's not what the future should look like. You shouldn't be","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":52,"time":"20:49","seconds":1249,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"worried whether or not it got your comma right or whether or not it moved the cursor. DI should be cognizant enough to know that you're operating in the system and it should be agentically enabled enough to go and plug all the information you're just saying to it in healthcare language as fast as you want it, in dialects you want it, translating into language like you want it, into all these interfaces and start all these downstream tasks. That's what we're thinking a lot about what we call natural language dictation,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":53,"time":"21:15","seconds":1275,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"which is just having a blast with an LLM copilot that is AI enabled and agentically enabled to go inside all these radiology platforms and help start finished workloads. So you're not just saying move cursor to point b. You're actually just talking, and then you have something that feels cognizant. That isn't sort of an after the fact, like few shot, one shot LLM,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":54,"time":"21:35","seconds":1295,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"writing a summary that's riddled with mistakes. It's something that happens in real time that is sort of a recursive reasoning and making sure that it actually finds the facts, understands the facts, and starts the actions needed. What's a more productive narrative","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":55,"time":"21:49","seconds":1309,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"to leverage here as AI companies think about adoption then within emerging healthcare verticals?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":56,"time":"21:58","seconds":1318,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"Obviously, understanding your vertical, really getting deep in the language of it, and not trying to sort of I've heard so many health healthcare professionals talk about sort of the the health like, the tech savior complex. It's like, don't land with the savior complex of you solving anything. Like, we all humbly need to know that these are, like, these are people who usually chose their career path because they're among the smartest of us, and we're just there to serve them and make that happen. So I think the narrative is a way way here. It's just to make sure we get away from the dance floor and make sure like the food is served and the light is on and everything works. And the people who are really good at those workflows, they are the people we see growing like weeds.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":57,"time":"22:35","seconds":1355,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"Enablement, not replacement. Absolutely.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":58,"time":"22:38","seconds":1358,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"This reminds me of the conversation around AI and different creatives where, yes, in that instance, there is, I think, a side narrative of, oh, we're gonna enable everyone to, you know, do more creatively by giving them AI tools. But often expert artists don't really want AI to paint for them. They enjoy the act of creation. They maybe wanna be enabled in areas that are around their key tool sets.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":59,"time":"23:08","seconds":1388,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"Is this a fair parallel, you think? I think it has a lot of overlaps. That's for sure. And I think the respect for for the work is key, and I think that's very much sort of built into some of the critique. And so I think it's some of the the sort of the phenomenal headlines of creative sort of going away. I think Muraty at some point said when she was at OpenAI that it will replace a lot of creative work and some of those creative","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":60,"time":"23:31","seconds":1411,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"jobs should never have been there. Sorry, Muraty, if that's not correctly quoted, but I think the point was just obviously, there's a building critique here that, like, if it can be replaced, maybe it should have been in the get go. I just do think, especially for creatives, like, have never seen a chess match between two AIs. I have no plans of seeing, like, a DOTA match between two DOTA playing AIs. I have not. But a DOTA, like, world class team of five playing a tech team of five AIs, I might tune in. That might be So a","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":61,"time":"23:58","seconds":1438,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"I think this is a lot about the interplay. It's not about the pure play. Like, AI is gonna be cool and agentic AI in health care is gonna do so much work that nobody signed up to do. I promise you, very few people in the world find, like, billing coding a fantastic endeavor. Some do, and they're amazing, we need them. We will always need some. But they're rare. They're","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":62,"time":"24:17","seconds":1457,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"rare, and they should be rare because it's hard work and it's complicated. And maybe those people who are doing it today who don't love doing it, they could be doing patient facing stuff instead. But that's, think, the opportunity of health care. Yes. We'll replace some work, but for the majority of it, it's way more about augmenting or enabling.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":63,"time":"24:32","seconds":1472,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I like this idea of understanding the intrinsic motivations of professionals and people in order to tailor what we're building to them. And I think it speaks to being customer obsessed and being user obsessed in a way that too often folks who come in with a savior complex, as you put it, maybe aren't listening to the people on the ground, but instead are saying, oh, here's how I can re envision this market. And while it's great to have a vision for the market and there's significant opportunities to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":64,"time":"25:06","seconds":1506,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"enable physicians, in particular, 24 of whom think about leaving their role weekly due to overwhelming workloads. You know, clearly there's a huge opportunity there, but failing to talk to them and understand their pain points is just a huge mistake, and it is very clear to me that you're not doing that. And you're both addressing the needs of your your own clients, the builders who are enabling the healthcare providers, and then also digging into the individuals within the system. Yet there is this significant","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":65,"time":"25:36","seconds":1536,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"workforce challenge. You know, we mentioned there's challenges with admin work. There's challenges with what I've heard you refer to as pajama time and the lack thereof of folks doing notes at night. And there's a gap in potentially 10,000,000 trained healthcare professionals that we'll need by 2030 that likely can't be filled through traditional means alone.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":66,"time":"25:59","seconds":1559,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So what needs to fundamentally change in our approach to AI development and deployment for it to truly address both the looming healthcare professional shortage. I mean, frankly, is one already. And also the pains that individual providers and physicians are feeling as they navigate this challenging, high stakes, regulated environment that's extremely high stress?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":67,"time":"26:26","seconds":1586,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"Mean, such a good point, and I think the WHO actually upgraded their number of the the caveat or the delta of of the health care professional we'll need by 2030. It's hovering between 10,000,000 we lack just to deliver the care we deliver today, not the the cooler version of health care we'll have learned to do by then, but just to do what we do today, it's at least 10,000,000 we'd like globally health care professionals. So you're right. There's just a problem if you can do what we do today, but if we look backwards and we assume it's the safe curve of innovation and novelty,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":68,"time":"26:53","seconds":1613,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"well, we probably don't wanna do the health care we do today in 2030. Probably wanna do way more preventative care, longevity, all that stuff. Right? So you're right. There's a problem. I think sort of one of the things we're seeing is sort of what's the sort of the low hanging fruits like. In energy we all want like, maybe some of us want fusion, some of us want fission, some of us want something like solar,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":69,"time":"27:12","seconds":1632,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"but some things are like easier to do like solar and some of things are harder like fusion and I think in our case in healthcare, if we just look at the 25% of the workflow, so I said before that we have sort of 40% of work done is like language based. If we look at sort of workflows that are language based in healthcare, that are ripe for AI innovation, I would just take the 25%","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":70,"time":"27:32","seconds":1652,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"most ripe, and we add AI to the parts of it that could be automated, I think it's McKinsey or Accenture at McKinsey, that said, if we do that, we can actually move $1,000,000,000,000 worth of HCP salaries away from admin. That's in workflow like collecting data, process data. That's like the the catch all kind of workflows. Right? If we did, like, AI optimize","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":71,"time":"27:57","seconds":1677,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"those, we have up to a trillion dollars we can move back into care or somewhere else. Wow. But back into care seems nice, especially if we lack 10,000,000 people. And if you look at sort of the what does, like, 1,000,000,000,000, obviously, it's a very different salary curve in in parts of Europe versus US and so on. But if we sort of look at the the the gap here, it's actually possible to map quite a bit of the most critical ones by just doing the most optimal, most obvious","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":72,"time":"28:23","seconds":1703,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"reallocation of time by using AI in health care. Let's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":73,"time":"28:27","seconds":1707,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"drill down on solving this problem, because you've talked earlier in our conversation about this major opportunity around, you know, four out of ten hours in healthcare are spent on language tasks. So this seems directly applicable to AI as it stands today. And then, I mean, the scope of this is staggering, obviously, you know, potentially moving a trillion hours back into the workforce or or freeing up those hours.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-73","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":74,"time":"28:54","seconds":1734,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"How would you break down how this would all work?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-74","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":75,"time":"28:58","seconds":1738,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"We need a Cambrian explosion. We need so many more opportunities for healthcare professionals to leverage these kind of technologies. Today, we have a lot of healthcare still running on premise. I think that's sadly the truth. If we look at the big, big, big EHR platforms like Epic, lot of it is still on premise. We are seeing it move more and more to the cloud, and I think Microsoft and Amazon and many other cool companies are playing a large role in making that happen, so we will unlock more and more opportunity to add more of these types of technology as health care moves to cloud. Secondly, we need to make sure that we find better ways of enticing the big sort of systems of record to start opening up their doors.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-75","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":76,"time":"29:40","seconds":1780,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"Some companies like Epic are, like, they're doing all sorts of initiatives now to open up the doors to more AI vendors. They're writing APIs. They're opening up, and I think that's the path forward. Some of our customers like DataLoose, the world's third biggest EHR platform, they cover patients from Bolivia to Germany, like it's a massive undertaking, and they have a massive tech team that are doing a lot of this stuff to enable more and more tools to plug in. So more cloud, more plug in, more tools, more builders that dare specialize.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-76","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":77,"time":"30:09","seconds":1809,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"That, in turn, I think, will be the Cambrian explosion, and if we can then get some AI that doesn't hallucinate as much, I think the health care professionals actually wanna adopt it even in fax riddled Germany.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-77","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":78,"time":"30:20","seconds":1820,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"How are you addressing the hallucination problem? What's your approach to evaluations?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-78","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":79,"time":"30:24","seconds":1824,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"I wish that was the only thing that we lacked to make sure we we we have opportunity to hallucinate less. The the boring answer is a lot of tedious work across the factory floor. So if we think of ourselves as a factory floor where you input health data, we output health data or health reason. And and in that factory floor, we have many models, many machines.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-79","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":80,"time":"30:43","seconds":1843,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"And at all times, we need to first off, we need to benchmark, was it the quality of what the data we got in? Did we understand it? Did did it translate well? If we transcribe it, did we transcribe it well? In the factory, every component that's interacting has to have benchmarks, so we need to understand remove data, what happens, where does it happen? We also need to understand what's the contribution of this machine in the factory floor so we could plug it and play it. Oh, somebody built some really cool shit over here. We're really inspired by this company. How can we learn from it? Finally, when we output it, we always have public benchmarks, and public benchmarks,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-80","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":81,"time":"31:14","seconds":1874,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"to be honest, is for the vast majority of not very useful. If you go to Hawking Face and find some of the big sort of medical benchmarks, PubMed, there's many others. If you look at the leader, the scoreboards of many of these health data sets, the leaders are noncommercial models. I think everybody in machine learning will have a good guess at what that means. It's probably because it's not very useful in practice and there's probably really good reasons to not bend and hammer on anyone, but there's probably really good reasons why it was trained in a way that makes it really good at tests but not very good in the wild.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-81","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":82,"time":"31:45","seconds":1905,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"So I think it's not just benchmarks. It's an entire infrastructure. It's many pipelines. It's understanding, like, not all data is created equal. Not all data processing is created equal, and every component in managing this ecosystem of reasoning is a massive undertaking because we need to be able to actually explain what we do, why we did it, why we changed it, when we did, what's in the model cards, like what's in the food we're serving, what's the ingredients we used, why do we use them, when do we move them, how do we launch it, where is it hosted, at what level and what state are we encrypting.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-82","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":83,"time":"32:16","seconds":1936,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"There is so many parts of this puzzle that it's to to many's dismay if they wanna play in the infrastructure layer in health care, it's sadly not just one thing, and there's not just one benchmark. It is an entire infrastructure of solutions that has to come together. I think that's a big learning from our sake is, like, you can't win health care by being good at one thing. You have to be good at many things,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-83","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":84,"time":"32:35","seconds":1955,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"at least quite a bit, and then you can be okay at some, and then you can decide to not be good at all at some others. Like us, we're not very good at the last mile of the workflows. We have partners who are fantastic at that part, but we wanna be really good at infrastructure part.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-84","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":85,"time":"32:48","seconds":1968,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I think it's wonderful that you've found the focus of where you want to approach things. And I appreciate the detail that you're bringing to both explainability and observability, as well as customization. Because too often, I think we are seeing approaches in different verticals with AI where you just say, oh, throw a big generalized model at it. It's gonna work great.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-85","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":86,"time":"33:18","seconds":1998,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And in fact, you need to really customize the metrics you're using, the benchmarks you're applying, how you approach the task itself. You know, what tools are you calling within an agentic system? Everything needs deep customization and infrastructure work to effectively address problems in challenging industries, particularly for highly regulated ones. You know, when you introduce non determinism, there is an added element of risk. There's an added opportunity","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-86","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":87,"time":"33:48","seconds":2028,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"too, but there's there's so much to solve there. So, you know, I'll say at Galileo, obviously, we are are huge fans of this approach for customizing benchmarks and metrics and really building hybridized systems that include both that, like, expert feedback, but also, you know, leveraging LM LMs or SLMs, like our our Luna models of judges. So I so I love that Courtney's taking the same thought process of, okay, how do we make this explainable for our customers and for our users? Because without that,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-87","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":88,"time":"34:19","seconds":2059,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"it's hard to really deliver value, particularly in these very consequential workflows. And then how do we customize this to really meet their needs instead of just saying, Oh yes, here's this generalized benchmark that we can apply. Love that you're thinking I that think that's absolutely the right approach. But I also imagine there are major hurdles that you're whether they're technical, regulatory,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-88","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":89,"time":"34:40","seconds":2080,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"cultural, to achieving the level of trusted automation in healthcare that I hear you seeking to achieve. How does Cordy take a compliance","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-89","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":90,"time":"34:51","seconds":2091,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"first approach to help address these? Do you know what's really helpful? Being from Europe, we're really good at compliance. We're really good at it. If I were doing AI for many other things in the world, I wouldn't be saying this. It would be an inhibitor, but we actually have a really cool, very, very, very large US customers we're launching very soon. I don't exactly know when this has gone live, I won't name them yet.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-90","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":91,"time":"35:15","seconds":2115,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"They came to us. They had a very, very long purchasing cycle. They're a massive company, and one of the things they liked was like, okay, so you guys are on like AI Act and GPR and all this stuff, and they're actually moving towards buying from AI vendors who are more in health care. In health care. This is health care. Aligned towards stuff like AI Act, because they think no matter what the market will drift towards some of this stuff, because, yeah, some of it is like red tape. We should remove it, but there's also a nucleus of truth","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-91","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":92,"time":"35:39","seconds":2139,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"back to you wanna be able to trust it even in a high stress environment, and I think, yes, there is a lot of red tape in Europe that's not great. We all know. But there's a lot of red tape that really makes sense, and a lot of furrow people really thought about it, and I think that's something that coming from Europe, having built a company grounds up here, like our first mini mini models, we, like, we pre trained. We did all of it ourselves. So we really, really know how to make a good soup. I think that every chef knows if you can make a good soup of simple ingredients, you're onto something, but it also allows us to really control what went into the models, how do we train them, how do we, like, structure it, what do we do in post training. If you actually do the work, it's much easier to give somebody else a recipe. I definitely agree with you about the ability","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-92","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":93,"time":"36:19","seconds":2179,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"when you have already addressed certain regulations and compliance needs to then apply that approach. Being able to have that baked in from the ground up is so important. And I'll say on our end, we've seen this in financial services and banking already where, you know, because we're already working with JPMorgan Chase, because we're already working with Citi, it becomes so much easier for us to have these other conversations with major banking and financial service providers","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-93","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":94,"time":"36:47","seconds":2207,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"because we get their regulatory concerns. We know the customization needs they have. And I'm sure that's the case for you across Europe, across the world, as you are able to apply this regulatory framework that you've you've already understood and become compliant with. And it gives you such a leg up in consequential industries. I think we see this also with, you know, AI and defense and elsewhere.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-94","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":95,"time":"37:10","seconds":2230,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"But how do you get AI to a point where it genuinely is reducing workload? Like, great. We're we're complying with regulations. We're, you know, handling the different situations we need to. But how do we make sure it's invisible and reliable? There's so much infrastructure work that goes in behind that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-95","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":96,"time":"37:32","seconds":2252,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"What are you working on at Corti to support this mission? Thanks for asking. This this is where you can keep me all night. An example is in health care right now, everybody's pretty hyped about AI scribe. So these, like, ambient tools, your outpatient care. You go to your doctor, and they turn on a mic or their phone, and they start recording. And then there's an LLM listening, recording. And then when it's done, it sort of spits it into this data pipeline. It transcribes, then it summarizes. Then you blurb out some text, and here you go. Your note is done. And already today, these, like, note takers are, like, they're saving so much time. Yes. But but we we did a survey of 2,000 of the earliest adopters of these cool tools in The US, and they told us on average they spend at least three hours a week just, like, vetting and correcting their AI, and they say it's a constant worry for them whether or not the AI had, like, said, shared, or done something they, like, had mis miscollect misrecollected or or didn't change.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-96","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":97,"time":"38:25","seconds":2305,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"So we're creating workflows here that shouldn't be there. Right? That's not the promise of AI is that, like, we'll give these fantastic HTPs these new tools, then they'll sit and get worried about those tools. Like, they're burning out. We should not get them more worried. Right? So, yeah, they're great. We thought, like, that's exactly the kind of thing where, like, an infrastructure company like us built for it can make a change, so so we we offered up something called","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-97","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":98,"time":"38:45","seconds":2325,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"facts r. So it's a it's a recursive reasoning pipeline. So it's not just sort of an LLM that one shots or few shot documentation, but it actually instead listens in, so you turn on the mic or your phone. You have maybe before you build in some, like, general purpose LLM, allowable model, whatever. Now you have a query. Instead of just waiting and, like, batch processing and few shotting it, we'll listen in all the time. So you open it, and while you're talking to the patient, we are doing recursively revisiting.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-98","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":99,"time":"39:10","seconds":2350,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"We're using, like, an orchestra of LLMs, what is the sort of salient facts that are really important, and can we revisit their importance as the conversation changes? We all know, like, we've been having a conversation like this or we're having a conversation over wine and subjects change, but in a transactional conversation like in health care, you're transacting where to go, where to stay, what medication to do, there is a kernel of truth that needs to be respected","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-99","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":100,"time":"39:35","seconds":2375,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"and all of the side time revisited. But if you just do batch processing, these LLMs will spit out shit. They will anchor on stuff. They will have, like, indexed on something. It will maybe even hallucinate. We're all the time trying to make sure that there's an orchestra and there is a series of models as judges passing judgment on whether or not this reasoning pipeline gets it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-100","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":101,"time":"39:56","seconds":2396,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"What we're seeing when we benchmark it on some of the big public benchmarks is that not only will we find 49% more of what matters, the really important healthcare information, we will also reduce the verbi verbose sort of classic we all know LLMs can be pretty verbose, right? So we can reduce 88% of what doctors would deem verbose or noise in this documentation.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-101","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":102,"time":"40:17","seconds":2417,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"And if you actually try to test whether or not they, like, the doctor both find it, like, accurate, concise and complete complete being this is what something I would have written, it's, like, up to my standards When they work together with a real time flow like recursive reasoning from or affects our model, they actually feel it's as complete or close to as what they did, which is a vast difference when this LM","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-102","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":103,"time":"40:37","seconds":2437,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"spat out something that didn't feel theirs. So this is the kind of thing where we can make real decisions on the infra layer that makes the, like, the the the entire experience for our customers' customers completely different without it, like, at the end user stage feeling much different.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-103","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":104,"time":"40:51","seconds":2451,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Let's dig into this infra layer a little more. I'm curious to understand more about how you're applying judges to double check outcomes and evaluate. What what type of judges are you using?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-104","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":105,"time":"41:03","seconds":2463,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"You mentioned using multiple judges. How are you weighting them? Oh, so some of it, we actually have in our documentation right now, which is live on on on our website. You can go build it, and I think some of our customers might have an impact on how we wanna do it in some of our enterprise deals as well. Obviously, the challenge is to find a scalable way of understanding how to pass judgment on something that is a moving target, which is hard.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-105","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":106,"time":"41:24","seconds":2484,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"So we do we do need a lot of data sets. We need a lot of holdouts, which luckily, we've been here for almost a decade, so we have done a lot of that, and then it's about really understanding the workflow it's embedded into to make sure we applied in the right point at the right place. Furthermore, at the end of it, we're lucky in our workflow that a user has to pass judgment. Right? So a doctor has to say, what you did was cool. So we actually at the end get a quite cool golden label of whether or not it's as complete or as concise as somebody would actually use it for. Regular human feedback to use for reinforcement learning. That's an Exactly.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-106","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":107,"time":"41:53","seconds":2513,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"Yeah. And and what we even see is that when you normally get these, like, few shots and you sit in the end with this, like, big wall of text, like, the the quality and the feedback is obviously temporarily it's all batched. Right? Whereas if you're all the time, you can just, instead of sitting there at night, pajama time, writing it, rewriting it as you recall it, you just, like, glance your screen and you could, like, click,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-107","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":108,"time":"42:15","seconds":2535,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"then you've given it feedback. That actually adds a temporal element as well that we can stamp and use, and all of a sudden, we can stream the entire conversation for the API, understand as well the interaction with the AI as it moves, and all of a sudden, we don't just have a really good golden label of concise and completeness. We also have an understanding of, like, when you interacted with the API for your platform, what happened, when did you do it, what did you interact with, what did you change. So all these things helps a ton.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-108","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":109,"time":"42:41","seconds":2561,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Looking ahead, as AI models become more capable, where do you see the next significant opportunities to move beyond administrative tasks and begin to safely and effectively support diagnostics, decision making, and ultimately not only drive improvement and freeing up time of the clinicians, but also directly improving patient outcomes in a more, you know, regulated and compliant way while still respecting the clinician's role.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-109","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":110,"time":"43:14","seconds":2594,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"I think it's a lot about, sort of if we two by two it, there is something that's like new workflow, new market, and in that like new workflow, new market, there is stuff today that hasn't happened in health care yet because we might not afford it, it might not be obvious. That should be happening in the future, And and I think there are some cool companies out there trying to map that space right now. Some of it is like like existing workflow, existing market that might be like adding AI to automated ways sort of secretaries. I think a much more interesting workflow is like how many conversations could you have or me for that matter. Let's say I picked up a new medication. I have never taken it before, hopefully I'll never do it again, but that means I have zero contextual data.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-110","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":111,"time":"43:50","seconds":2630,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"My physicians usually don't have time to call me and say like, tell me more about that like that like weird feeling of like airiness you get in your head like, it's a soft signal, it's not probably not a leading indicator, will go away, so nobody will call you. But if your the average cost per minute of high quality medical reasoning with solutions and infrastructure like us can be like orders of magnitude cheaper,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-111","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":112,"time":"44:13","seconds":2653,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"why wouldn't you push amazing AIs at calling all your patients? If that's in pharma, that's in, like, physical rehab, if it's in, psychology, psychiatry, primary care, outpatient care, you name it, home care. Why would you spend way more time just reasoning with the patient, cautioning them, helping them, guiding them if you could and you actually had an infrastructure that was safe enough to not hallucinate away, Take all the pills, it's gonna be great, right? We all heard the, like, Google,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-112","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":113,"time":"44:39","seconds":2679,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"like, offering patients to eat one rock a day because that's, like, a fixative study from Berkeley has said that's great. Right? If we can control it,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-113","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":114,"time":"44:48","seconds":2688,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"then, like, all of a sudden, bring compute cost down will be such an unlock for, like, new workflow, new markets that we haven't thought about yet. Andreas, thank you so much for staying up late in Copenhagen today and joining you on the podcast. It's been such a pleasure having you on the show. Where can our listeners go to find out more about Corti and to learn more about your work?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-114","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":115,"time":"45:07","seconds":2707,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"Hey. Thanks, and thanks for having me. I really enjoyed the the the conversation. We're at corti.ai. Go sign up. Ping me on Twitter or LinkedIn. My handle is Andreas Cleve, or ping us at Corti. If do it on Instagram, we'll we'll we'll shoot you over some credits so you can start building. If you have a cool use case where you need something bespoke, something hard,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-115","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":116,"time":"45:26","seconds":2726,"speaker":"Andreas Cleve","text":"if you're a university hospital wanting to do real clinical research with an AI partner, we're we're not sort of the latest fad. We're here to stay, and we'd love to build cool shit with you. I love it. And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-116","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":117,"time":"45:38","seconds":2738,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I honestly have super enjoyed this conversation. It's been such an interesting look into this, I think, misunderstood vertical. As you put it earlier in our conversation, there are a thousand different verticals within healthcare, and they all deserve their own treatment. There's such an opportunity here, and it's inspiring to hear the stories of companies like Corti that are","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-117","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":118,"time":"46:02","seconds":2762,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"focusing on highly regulated consequential verticals and making deep inroads by being considered about their approach. So tons of great lessons that I think our listeners can take away from the approach of Corti, and hopefully, a few folks on the health care side of things will be reaching out to you after this. So we'll certainly link everything that we've discussed today in the show notes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-118","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":119,"time":"46:25","seconds":2785,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Super excited to learn more about your evaluations and how you continue to build out the QWERTY platform. There's clearly such an opportunity here. And for our listeners, if you enjoyed this episode, support the show by subscribing. Give us a like, a comment, a review. It matters a ton. Take a little pajama time to take two or three minutes and just, you know, drop that comment. Those drive the algorithm in our favor, whether it's on LinkedIn, whether it's on Spotify, YouTube, wherever else.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-119","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve","episode":34,"guid":"0daa4e04-d639-4a8e-8d57-fb0c84b1b992","episodeTitle":"AI's Trillion-Dollar Healthcare Bet | Corti's Andreas Cleve","publishedAt":"2025-07-30","segmentIndex":120,"time":"46:52","seconds":2812,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"We deeply appreciate your support. Thanks again for tuning in. And, Andreas, thank you so much for joining us. It's been a pleasure. Hey. It's been a pleasure, good good work on all fronts. Big fan of yours. Thank you very much. Appreciate it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/34-ais-trillion-dollar-healthcare-bet-cortis-andreas-cleve/#t-120","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"If you don't have a way of observing what these agents are doing, if you don't have a way of evaluating them, and if you don't have a way of putting guardrails around their behavior, you just don't have an agentic system that's gonna really survive.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:16","seconds":16,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Hey, folks. I am Conor Bronsdon coming to you live from the Galileo offices in San Francisco, which are our offices are about three more weeks before we move to a new location.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":2,"time":"0:27","seconds":27,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"We are here with Chain of Thought, the podcast for developers building with AI. I'm Conor, the head of developer awareness at Galileo. And we're here for a conversation about how AI is changing, how agents are evolving. And this complexity that has been introduced as we begin to build multi agent systems, as we begin to expand upon more basic reg implementations","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":3,"time":"0:54","seconds":54,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"to massive complex networks of LMs interoperating with one another, self evaluating sometimes, self improving. And there's a new urgent challenge that is being faced by companies around the world, which is reliability. And the ability to have the trust needed to put these AI systems into production. It used to be easy when this was just an experiment, when it was fun, when it was new. And now people are going, Oh, what's the actual customer value? Can we trust us to stay within the guardrails we have? How do we ensure these systems are not just powerful, but also predictable,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":4,"time":"1:29","seconds":89,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"safe, and trustworthy? So, today we're thrilled to be joined by someone at the very heart of this intersection between data and AI, Mickey Chandrasekhar, staff developer advocate at MongoDB, and someone you may know from LinkedIn. Mickey, thank you so much for joining us.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":5,"time":"1:43","seconds":103,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"So good to be here. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":6,"time":"1:44","seconds":104,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I'm excited to discuss the agent landscape, agent ops, and so much more that Mongo is at the centre of here within this evolving data and AI ecosystem.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":7,"time":"1:56","seconds":116,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So let's maybe start with that vantage point at MongoDB. I know you've only been there a couple months now, but you've obviously been involved in this space for so long. You've got this depth of knowledge about what's happening and working with developers across different industries. And what do you see as how MongoDB is going to push AI and data forward in the next couple of years?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":8,"time":"2:16","seconds":136,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"Yeah, totally. And to give a little bit of context to,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":9,"time":"2:21","seconds":141,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"you know, to that question, so, in terms of my background, like, what I like to tell people is that I've essentially had the joy and the opportunity to work at every single stage of the data to ML to now the generative AI pipeline. Of my career was working as a data scientist. Part of my career was working as an ML Ops Engineer. And then, you know, more recently my job has been in terms of developer advocacy and education","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":10,"time":"2:51","seconds":171,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"around how to build production ready systems. Any system that involves whether it's generative AI or whether it's classical machine learning or even analytics. That's kind of been the focus of my career. Bringing all that to my role here to, you know, help advocate for developers that are trying to build these reliable, production ready, generative AI applications and platforms.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":11,"time":"3:23","seconds":203,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"So that's why I do at Mongo. And one of the reasons why I joined is because, so Mongo already has a really rich history of providing one of the best document data stores in the industry. And when people think documents, they immediately think like PDFs, etcetera. But really, what you know, MongoDB was able to figure out really quickly was how to create a database that essentially, you know, has a polymorphic schema,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":12,"time":"3:50","seconds":230,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"which allows you to be very flexible with how you design the data that feeds your application and to be able to encompass any kind of data. So that's the story of MongoDB, the V1 of MongoDB. MongoDB has also started moving into how can we enable developers at all stages of maturity to not just excel with their data store, but how can we now then help them leverage that data store to, for example,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":13,"time":"4:28","seconds":268,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"support Rag applications, to support agent applications, not just from the vector store that we have now on Atlas Search, not just from the memory stores that we also have available now as modules in Landgraf and a couple of our partners. But how can we do all that to help continue supporting developers building the next generation apps. Now, in terms of kind of,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":14,"time":"4:56","seconds":296,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"you know, MongoDB fits into the industry now is we really see ourselves as the memory store for agentic applications and agentic systems. Totally. Yeah. And in terms of like what that actually means, you know, it's not just storing the data. It's not just storing, you know, vector data for semantic search and similarity in Rag, but it's also storing the chat logs,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":15,"time":"5:22","seconds":322,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"you know, things to help developers debug, trace any kind of errors, and to figure out how they can continue improving the underlying data, underlying processes to, you know, continue improving that user experience for their applications.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":16,"time":"5:36","seconds":336,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Absolutely. And I'll say that's one of the reasons Galileo is really excited to integrate with MongoDB as a data platform,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":17,"time":"5:44","seconds":344,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"is seeing the incredible stuff being built with Mongo. There's so many cool agents that I'm seeing developers come up with. Are there particular use cases or particular moments of agents in action that you've seen people build with Mongo that get you fired up about where the future is going?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":18,"time":"6:00","seconds":360,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, it's really interesting because I think, a lot of the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":19,"time":"6:06","seconds":366,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"you see kind of two schools of thought right now in terms of the, the digital sphere world, the world of the internet. And one thought is, you know, that, oh, agents are this, like, over hyped fake thing that people talk about building, but don't actually build. Meanwhile, there are tons of companies that are building production scale agents. So there's a number of customer stories on the MongoDB site","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":20,"time":"6:37","seconds":397,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"as well. But we've seen builds from both really small startups. We have a few of those partners on our site. They're built on MongoDB. We also have a lot of blue chip, well known companies that have also started building agentic systems with Atlas specifically. And more recently, MongoDB announced the acquisition of Voyage, which hosts a number of very high performing","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":21,"time":"7:09","seconds":429,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"embedding and re ranking models. And bringing them into, you know, the same house means that, you know, any team, whether you're a solo developer that's building their, like, first million dollar app, or whether you're a team at an existing, like, twenty year old company telecom or in finance, in medical, health care, you name it, they can all build, like, very similarly performing agentic systems.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":22,"time":"7:37","seconds":457,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It's interesting that you bring up similarity in performance because one of the big challenges we're seeing with agents and AI systems in general is reliability. Obviously, nondeterminism is an incredible tool, an incredible opportunity of these systems, but it comes with risks about trustworthiness, getting to production consistently, and actually delivering on the promise of AI and the opportunity therein.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":23,"time":"8:06","seconds":486,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"What has been the approach for Mongo and yourself around how to improve the reliability of these systems, especially with the incredible data layer that Mongo provides?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":24,"time":"8:16","seconds":496,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"Yeah. Absolutely. And, you it's really interesting. So I I recently gave a lightning talk at the AI engineer world's fair, It was about essentially how to solve memory for multi agent systems. So, I had taken a poll and I asked everyone, Yo, raise your hands if you","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":25,"time":"8:33","seconds":513,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"are building an agent. Okay. So basically 80% of people raise their hands. I said, Raise your hands if you, like, have an agent. Right? Or multiple agents in production. And about those same people roughly raised their hands. Maybe there's one or two less. And then I asked them like, how many of you have gotten your agents to work, like, straight off the bat, a 100% of the time? No one raised their hands. No one at all.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":26,"time":"8:58","seconds":538,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"You know? So to me that kind of it's a good cross section, especially because that conference, it represents the builders who are building at the edge. So to me that was very reflective of like, what a lot of teams are experiencing right now, which is that even if, for example, you have an agent that does a structured workflow, sometimes the answers it gives are going to be different. It might be one out of 100 runs,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":27,"time":"9:29","seconds":569,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"or it could be one out of 20 runs depending on how complex the task you have given that agent. So, I think that's a really, really big challenge because I think your users and customers of whatever app or product you build, they have such high standards now for the customer, like the user experience. And most importantly, if you're dealing with really sensitive data so for example,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":28,"time":"9:53","seconds":593,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"if you're dealing with an agent that internally helps put together financial reports, financial analyses, competitive intelligence well, intelligence is important, but actually financial reports. That is a huge thing that if you're a public company, can't get it wrong. Or even we've seen some embarrassing examples I've recently seen. So right now it's summer and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":29,"time":"10:20","seconds":620,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"every publication in the world is pointing out there, you know, here's our top 50 summer reading list. Something that happened apparently was that a few of those summer reading lists that came out of reputable sites and media channels were fake. The books did not exist. Wow. The books did not exist, and the reading lists are still published. And so when people went to go look at these books, they couldn't find anything. It's like how I mean, that's a relatively trivial example in that, you know, no one's,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":30,"time":"10:53","seconds":653,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"Yeah. The danger No one's actively harmed, but the reputation risk there. You know, those sites did actually take a ding on reputation because the common feedback people had wasn't necessarily that they used generative AI, for example, to write the copy, but was that no one did the editorial review to check if these books actually existed. So that's a relatively trivial example. Everyone knows the the story about the the guy who was able to get a, I think, a Ford truck for a dollar. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":31,"time":"11:25","seconds":685,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"A lead lead support pod. Thank you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":32,"time":"11:26","seconds":686,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"Lovely support pod. Fun story. You know, but what about, for example, a more serious case where you have an agent that is helping to put together initial diagnoses or doing triaging for, people with severe health conditions. Like, that's a or agents that put together that do underwriting for loans for insurance. Like, those are very serious","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":33,"time":"11:53","seconds":713,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"cases where the consequences can be disastrous for people.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":34,"time":"11:56","seconds":716,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Absolutely. And I will say, feel like I'd be remiss if I didn't mention, Galileo's wonderful case study with Majid, where we talk about how to solve these newsroom challenges. So go check that on our website at galileo.ai. But, hallucination is both a feature and a bug Yeah. When it comes to LLMs because we want them to create new. We want them to try new things. We want them to be able to think their way out of problems, which is form a of hallucination.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":35,"time":"12:24","seconds":744,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"But when it happens in the wrong areas, when it happens outside of the the guardrails we've tried to set Yeah. When it happens in a way that affects people's lives negatively, it's a huge issue. And there's a lot of approaches being considered about how to solve this. Obviously, we focus on the, like, observation, evaluation, guard rating side of things. And I know Mongo is thinking a lot about agent ops as well, and how do the systems operate. Can you tell me a bit about","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":36,"time":"12:50","seconds":770,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"the approach to agent ops and what your thinking is and how it's evolving?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":37,"time":"12:55","seconds":775,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"Yeah, absolutely. So it's to me, it's fascinating. So, you know, before the world of General AI came about, I was working in ML Ops, right? Way So let me approach it from kind of like two angles. So the first angle is in terms of I want to address some interesting trends that I see around,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":38,"time":"13:25","seconds":805,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"once again, the building of agents in the world. So there's one school of thought that is sort of like, well, you know, agents, because LMs are nondeterministic and all solar stuff, you should kind of just let them do their thing, and you should treat them as the wonderful magical puppets that they are. Like, box. Let it go. Do their thing. Right? And then it's okay. We'll catch the errors later and then kind of figure out something out on the, application layer. Right?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":39,"time":"13:53","seconds":833,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"But the other school of thought that I personally follow and hold on to is that agents are a software product. We have best practices that we've established with traditional software and applications and software engineering best practices there. And yeah, some things will change a bit with agents, but we should still approach them with a certain rigor. We should approach them with an understanding of, like, we have these best practices that we, for example, built out in the world of MLOps.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":40,"time":"14:29","seconds":869,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"Let's see how we can adapt them to agents, but let's not get away from the fact that they are still software products. Still code based. So in terms of, for example, how we're approaching it on the MongoDB side, of the things that we're really good at is data. You know, it's storing data. It's helping developers access data. It's helping them search it, helping them to organize it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":41,"time":"14:57","seconds":897,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"So that's one of the first ways we're approaching it is how can we store all the data that you need, not just to feed your applications, but also to help you understand how your agents are performing, what are the conversations that they're having. How can you then, for example, plug into observability and evaluation providers to then be able to understand them and do those traces.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":42,"time":"15:23","seconds":923,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"There's a few folks that are pretty, I would say, great voices or great advocates for that school of thought. So, there's Hamil Hussein and I think Shreya Shankar. And, you know, I love all the stuff that they produce because they advocate for that rigor. I agree. For that value approach. So that's one way MongoDB is approaching is we do data really well. Let's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":43,"time":"15:49","seconds":949,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"bring that excellence and expertise to developers, and then let's figure out how to build tools around it so that they can kind of leverage all those different sort of abilities, data store, a vector store, a memory store. Yeah. And then I'd say the second thing that we're doing, and this is related to both Voyage and a lot of the recent improvements and features we shipped around Atlas.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":44,"time":"16:18","seconds":978,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"For example, embedding models are obviously very important if you're doing sort of a rag style workflow. But also re ranking models are really important because you want the ability to, you know, feed the best documents, the best matches, you want to bring that quality in for what you feed into your rag system. Right? So that's another way that we're approaching it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":45,"time":"16:48","seconds":1008,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"Alasearch team has shipped some really amazing features. So now developers, for example, can not just do full text search, not just do semantic search, but also they can do hybrid search where they combine the best of full text and semantic to create even, like, better better pipelines.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":46,"time":"17:08","seconds":1028,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I love your perspective here because I completely agree with you. We can't always just let agents run amok.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":47,"time":"17:17","seconds":1037,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"We have best practices we can place. We have things we can take from prior eras of software engineering. And, you know, I I know there's this hype that software engineering is going away. And maybe someday it will. But I don't think it's happening anytime soon. I think we should be leveraging these best practices. I think we should take the learnings we already have and apply them to this current era.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":48,"time":"17:39","seconds":1059,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I'll I'll say Hamill is actually coming on the podcast So very very excited to talk","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":49,"time":"17:44","seconds":1064,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"to him and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":50,"time":"17:44","seconds":1064,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"learn quite a bit because I I feel like every time I talk to him, I I just engage in so much knowledge and approach there. And he's actually contributed to some of how we've designed some of our new features on our platform as we've thought through this problem too.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":51,"time":"18:00","seconds":1080,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"You know, one of the features we we recently launched, that we're we're very excited to have working with agents that are leveraging MongoDB are some some new interfaces to help with the debugging understanding and identification of problems in multi agent systems, including, you know, a graph view to trace, okay, like, what actually got happened within this agentic","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":52,"time":"18:21","seconds":1101,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"work through, or this agentic workflow. And then, you know, a timeline view where we can look at multi agents together and say, okay, like, who was communicating with who? When was it happening? Which tools were getting called when? It can really help with debugging and understanding where there are challenges, which you wouldn't need if you took out the brain amok, I suppose. But, again, don't think you should do that. And then a message view, so you can really dive into and unpack","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":53,"time":"18:47","seconds":1127,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"a particular string of messages and and understand the actual chain of thought of of what occurred. And I think it's so crucial to create the reliability that we're talking about in order to enable enterprises to really go to production because, you know, we can't risk people's livelihoods or their health. And yet there are so many drudgery tasks that we can automate. There are so many","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":54,"time":"19:11","seconds":1151,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"hours of human time that we can free up for creativity if we apply these systems in the right way. And I'm curious from your perspective, what are the features that you would wanna see on a reliability side? Like if you could just wave a magic wand and make us build something, like what would it be that you would want us to build to help support this ecosystem?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":55,"time":"19:31","seconds":1171,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"Oh, that's so interesting. So interesting. Let me think about that. So, in preparation for some of the research and talks that I've been doing for Mongo, especially around multi agent systems, what's so really interesting is that it's not that people aren't building multi agent systems. Whenever people think, oh, this thing will happen in the next two years, I can guarantee you it's already happening now. Someone in the world is building it. But I think the difference between people who are building the products and the systems of the future","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":56,"time":"20:14","seconds":1214,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"versus the people who are building what is available now, there's just this gulf of experience and knowledge and practices. And sometimes, you know, it takes a while for the rest of the world to keep up. So, for example, multi agent systems, right, in production. So it's just now that I think we're starting to see papers come out that are really you know, they've taken that second school of thought, which is that if agents are","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":57,"time":"20:43","seconds":1243,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"software engineering products, products, can we apply, for example, scientific analysis to understand all the ways that they break? So, there's a couple of those papers out. Some of them I had referenced in my talk at the conference. One of them was why multi agent systems fail, which I thought was great. What the paper tries to do is it tries to provide a taxonomy","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":58,"time":"21:07","seconds":1267,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"of potential failures in multi agent systems. So I think a lot of the focus around failure, oddly enough, has been around single agent systems. You know, and in thinking about memory, thinking about, like, memory for single agents, people kind of focus on, like, okay, so you need, like, you need a data store, then you need, like, a vector store, and then, you have a chat store where you save stuff, and then like, that's it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":59,"time":"21:37","seconds":1297,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"And a lot of this, like for example, chain of thought reasoning has been about improving a single agent. But what we're seeing now actually is that people are building multi agent systems. I think that's the advice and best practice that's developing now is instead of having agents try to do a single agent try to do a lot of complex tasks, have like a system of small agents, each one that is equipped to do a, you know, one","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":60,"time":"22:06","seconds":1326,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"to three tasks. Make sure that you have criteria for how to evaluate the performance of those agents. And then you look at that team or that coalition or what have you holistically. Right? Where so so going back to that paper, Why Multi Agents Fail, that I thought was so good. And there's a few other papers that I'm happy to listen, share with people Was as that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":61,"time":"22:42","seconds":1362,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"what was the implication was one, that a lot of these failures are actually pretty predictable, and you can you could kind of classify them in this taxonomy. And then I think the second part was that all the stuff around how to make a single agent better, we need to kind of extend it on how to make a system of multiple agents better. Two types of memory concepts that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":62,"time":"23:09","seconds":1389,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"we're starting to really think about and that's starting to come out in papers is, for example, having like a skills library and having like a concept of like a blackboard Blackboard memory. Yeah. So Blackboard memory is where you have agents kind of come together to post like partial solutions, and essentially it's read write, and they kind of can pick up the the,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":63,"time":"23:32","seconds":1412,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"you know, the trail and each can kind of bring their own unique sort of expertise or focus to help solve that problem. And then a skills library is the okay, once a pattern has been established, it's a little different from a cache because a cache is like you store a query result, right, that you can kind of fetch. But with skills library, it's like once agents, once your multi agent system has like","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":64,"time":"23:58","seconds":1438,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"figured something out, instead of having them refigured out each time, you essentially save that pattern to this like skills library. So going back to the question of like what I would love to see in like an evaluation observability framework is I'd like to start seeing a capture of those kinds of traces in something that's native to like those types of memory concepts, because I think those are going be really important. I don't think people are really talking about it. We've seen examples","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":65,"time":"24:32","seconds":1472,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"of people doing some kind of like Canvas, Blackboard style thing. But that's what at least what I predict is that, you know, all the existing understanding of memory for single agent systems that happen you happen to have a group of them in a system we need to evolve that to think about multi agent systems where these agents are working together in tandem and then to have","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":66,"time":"25:03","seconds":1503,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"native tracing and observability and evaluation on those agents. Because that becomes very different, right? Instead of having each agent is compared to the same criteria, instead, like each agent has a different criteria that is focused on like their kind of specific skill set. And I also kind of see people playing around with different types of agent architectures.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":67,"time":"25:27","seconds":1527,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"So most of the time we think of agents in a cooperative sense. But for example, what if you had, competitive agents? Yeah. It works really well actually sometimes. Yeah. You know, so that's that's what I would that's my wish list.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":68,"time":"25:39","seconds":1539,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I I love this. And I particularly like it because it directly relates back to something you said earlier, which is, hey, there are lot of concepts from software engineering we can apply to agents.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":69,"time":"25:51","seconds":1551,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I would even extend that and say, there are a lot of concepts from good organizational development and good management that we can apply to agents. Like, so you mentioned earlier breaking down agentic systems from, oh, this one agent that does everything to here are ten, twenty, however many agents that are doing small tasks together as part of a team. Oh, you know, teamwork, never talked about that at all. For that matter, look at software engineering. We've never taken epics and broken them down into stories Yeah. Broken them down into sprints,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":70,"time":"26:19","seconds":1579,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and, put those on on a on a board and said, okay, great. Like, here's a task we're gonna do here. That that certainly is not a concept we can understand. We don't have to break large PRs down to small PRs in order to actually get them reviewed and done. Wild wild that we have to do that. Specialization, you talked about that too. Of and, I mean, clearly, that's not something we do within the economy or within teams.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":71,"time":"26:37","seconds":1597,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"We certainly don't specify and diversify and customize our goals for those specialized people either. They don't have different goals based on their job functions, maybe. For example, like, not something we can apply to agents. Definitely can't change the criteria for those folks. You wouldn't maybe, I don't know, think of us like a sales agent, which is a crazy thought. And like a software agent is like having different goals. Just a just a weird","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":72,"time":"27:00","seconds":1620,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"example.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":73,"time":"27:00","seconds":1620,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"Absolutely. And I mean, like, you think about too, like, let's say for example, you have, you let's say for example, you have an agentic system, that is focused on, real estate. So essentially an agentic system that will help not just couples, you know, or individual people with dogs. What's funny, I actually had worked on, I tried working on my own real estate tech startup. Oh, interesting. Yeah. This was early on my a little bit earlier on my career,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-73","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":74,"time":"27:29","seconds":1649,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"I was like one of five people plus a few contractors. And I was working on like the the data engineering and data architecture and pipelines and all that. Data in real estate is wild. But as part of that, you know, we had to read how much these papers and this one paper I read was that the biggest reason for single people to buy a house was because they had a dog.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-74","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":75,"time":"28:00","seconds":1680,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"That was one of strongest indicators of someone who was single. Euphorispray. Interesting. Was to buy a dog. I always think about that example. You have real estate anyway. You have a real estate system that is helping people find homes, but it's also helping real estate brokers find listings that they can then sell to these people. And let's say that's like a multi agent system, right?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-75","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":76,"time":"28:26","seconds":1706,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"What you could do, for example, is you can then start AB testing and experimenting with each of these different agent personas. So let's say, for example, you have a listing research agent. All it does is go crawl different, real estate listings or and MLS is another place where, you could get some of this listing data.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-76","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":77,"time":"28:45","seconds":1725,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Or Or, you know, in that agent example, maybe somewhere like MongoDB might have that data. It's a weird weird place to put it. I don't know. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-77","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":78,"time":"28:52","seconds":1732,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"But let's but you let's say, for example, you wanna test out different language models.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-78","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":79,"time":"28:59","seconds":1739,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"You wanna test out different reasoning models. You wanna test out different styles of prompts. So you have five or six different of these research listing agents. You could essentially do this parameter fine tuning. You can experiment with different prompts. Obviously the data for the real estate listings you could store in Atlas for MongoDB. And then essentially like you have a","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-79","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":80,"time":"29:27","seconds":1767,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"way to, you know, pick who is the best like configuration, right? Who is the best type of agent? In order to do that, you need to be able to observe the performance, you need to be able to trace it, you need to understand why was the performance better with these agents. And then you can kind of, like, pick the the golden star. Yeah. You know?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-80","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":81,"time":"29:50","seconds":1790,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I think too much of that decision making has been purely qualitative so far. Whereas we want both quantitative benchmarks and qualitative feedback. And it's really when that comes together that you see highly customized, highly successful systems. Yeah. Absolutely. Obviously, we both care deeply, Mickey, about reliable AI systems and enabling developers to build","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-81","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":82,"time":"30:13","seconds":1813,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"this bevy of agents that they're not only building already, but building in more complex systems and have these deep reliability needs. How does Galileo's integration with MongoDB help enable developers around the world to build more trustworthy and reliable AI agents, more trustworthy and reliable AI agents? Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-82","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":83,"time":"30:35","seconds":1835,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"Absolutely. I mean, so what it comes down to is I think there's,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-83","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":84,"time":"30:39","seconds":1839,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"some important core components of a production ready, reliable agentic system. MongoDB, we cover essentially the data store for applications, both small and if people want to scale it to worldwide, we definitely cover that. We also have the vector store for semantic search, and we have the memory store. So that's all great. But at the end the day, going back to these are still products, these are still software products that are going to be released out into the wild and interacting with real people. They also might be interacting with other","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-84","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":85,"time":"31:16","seconds":1876,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"agents, but ideally they're interacting with real people who, you know, have very real kind of concerns and expectations when it comes to the products that they interact with and the kind of experience that they want. And I think if you don't have a way of observing what these agents are doing, you don't have a way of evaluating them, and if you don't have a way of putting guardrails around their behavior,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-85","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":86,"time":"31:44","seconds":1904,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"you just don't have an agentic system that's going to really survive. And it's quite possible that, you know, your company and product brand could also take a big hit. So, you know, I see the tools that Galileo offers as part of its platform, really helping ensure that, one, people can build the agentic systems that they need to, that they can scale these systems,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-86","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":87,"time":"32:13","seconds":1933,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"and they can do so in a way that continues to not just improve the user experience, but that can help continue to like grow the companies and the brands that are building these products. So it really it's enabling trust, I think, by developers in the systems that they're building.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-87","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":88,"time":"32:32","seconds":1952,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Completely agreed. And I think that's why it's so important that companies like Mongo and Galileo also align to open standards like OpenTelemetry","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-88","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":89,"time":"32:40","seconds":1960,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"so that it's easy for us to work together and easier for developers to leverage data across these different systems. How do metrics in particular for agents factor in? Obviously, something where we've developed some agent metrics. Do you view that as an important cornerstone of what AI builders should be thinking about as they evaluate and absorb these systems. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-89","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":90,"time":"33:02","seconds":1982,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"Absolutely. I mean, so","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-90","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":91,"time":"33:06","seconds":1986,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"part part of my life, I did competitive bodybuilding. And, you know, and I I'm also, generally speaking, a very growth minded person. And I think the phrase, forgot exactly how it goes, but it's the you you can't improve what you can't measure. Yeah. That's that's I think about that a lot.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-91","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":92,"time":"33:28","seconds":2008,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"What's measured is managed. There's a lot of these little Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-92","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":93,"time":"33:31","seconds":2011,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"So, I think","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-93","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":94,"time":"33:34","seconds":2014,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"vibe checks are fine, but I think at a certain point, you do need to put quantitative metrics and measures in place. Because, so what it comes down to is, for most people, they are building agentic systems for a company, and most of the time it's probably a for profit company or a for profit business. Know, an agentic system, it's not a silver bullet to building a profitable","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-94","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":95,"time":"34:09","seconds":2049,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"company. But being able to figure out what's working and then being able to make those decisions, to be empowered to say like, okay, so this agentic workflow or this agentic feature seems to be doing really well. This one doesn't. So let's really kind of prioritize what's working and then let's deal with, you know, what isn't. I think that's just that's crucial.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-95","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":96,"time":"34:35","seconds":2075,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"You know, I think people need both, you know. And I think this idea that because agents are powered by LMs or, you know, they can also be powered by multimodal models. We definitely have use cases for multimodal agents at MongoDB that we've seen. But this idea that because an LM or a VLM or whatever is like the reasoning part of an agent, and therefore you can","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-96","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":97,"time":"35:03","seconds":2103,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"you don't have to use measure like metrics to measure it because it's language, I think is totally false.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-97","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":98,"time":"35:08","seconds":2108,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I I completely agree. It's I think we get too wrapped up in this piece of like, oh, we're language prompting and we're using NLP. You know, I'm a native English speaker, but English is not a very clear language. I can say things in many different ways. It","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-98","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":99,"time":"35:28","seconds":2128,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"requires context to understand often. Numbers are different if you apply context to them. And same is true of code. And that's why I think it's important to have, like, code based metrics because there are are other languages out there that are have more clarity. And particularly as we look at, like, human language and how it's evolved, it's the contextual elements of it are are so diverse depending on what culture you're you're sitting in, what type of language you're sitting in. And so","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-99","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":100,"time":"35:57","seconds":2157,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. Using that as a a prism to to look at, you know, software and agents, we have to understand the implications of how we apply these vibe based, purely natural language pieces of feedback versus also having context via numbers and providing more systematic, more scientific approaches. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-100","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":101,"time":"36:18","seconds":2178,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"Absolutely. And you see this too, especially with coding agents or copilot style agents Totally. Where the output is code,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-101","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":102,"time":"36:26","seconds":2186,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"you can definitely measure certain things, for example, like accuracy, efficiency, lines of code.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-102","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":103,"time":"36:32","seconds":2192,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Lines of code is a terrible measure for the record.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-103","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":104,"time":"36:34","seconds":2194,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"It is a terrible measure. Absolutely. But certain things, for example, like the runtime efficiency of, like, code, all other stuff, like, you can and, like, for example, the number of times someone accepts a suggestion or things like that, that those can absolutely be measured.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-104","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":105,"time":"36:49","seconds":2209,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"Yeah. Lines of code is terrible. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-105","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":106,"time":"36:50","seconds":2210,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I I used to work at Linear B and we're a company that helps doing metrics for software engineering particularly. And they that was, like, the number one thing the founders like, anyone who said lines of code, they're like, oh, I'm gonna get them.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-106","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":107,"time":"37:03","seconds":2223,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"I know. I know. It's it's it lines of code is a it's a very, how should I put this?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-107","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":108,"time":"37:14","seconds":2234,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"It's a it's a it's a hot metric. Life's come up a lot. And I think the the typical pushback is always like, well, you know, as you get more experienced in your, technical leadership track, lines of code is not what you should be measuring. It should be impact, and sometimes that impact does not encode, and all that good stuff. But but but other things, for example, like within coding agents, like, should actually those should absolutely be enumerated.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-108","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":109,"time":"37:39","seconds":2259,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-109","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":110,"time":"37:40","seconds":2260,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Mickey, thank you for an incredibly insightful conversation. It's been so fun having a chance to to hear your viewpoint here, and I can't wait to see what you get up to at Mongo and what's next for you. It's clear that as the power of agents grows and as more multi agent systems evolve, the need for a dedicated reliability framework that works hand in hand with data platforms like the incredible work we've done at MongoDB","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-110","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":111,"time":"38:04","seconds":2284,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"isn't just a nice to have. It's an absolute necessity for anyone serious about productionizing AI. So thank thank you so much for sharing your perspective and and your research and your knowledge with us today. Thanks for coming on to talk about MongoDB and Galileo's partnership.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-111","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":112,"time":"38:16","seconds":2296,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"Yeah, thanks for having me. I mean, we're super excited about Galileo's new agent reliability platform.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-112","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":113,"time":"38:22","seconds":2302,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"I mean, there's just so much opportunity for MongoDB and Galileo to just continue deepening our partnership and, you know, enabling AI builders to scale with MongoDB and Galileo together.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-113","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":114,"time":"38:31","seconds":2311,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Absolutely agreed. And I know a lot of our listeners would love to follow along with your continued work. Where can they find you on the internet?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-114","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":115,"time":"38:39","seconds":2319,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"Yeah, absolutely. So if they want to get in touch with me, you know, please feel free to do so on LinkedIn,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-115","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":116,"time":"38:48","seconds":2328,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"Twitter, YouTube. I also I do have a Substack as well. I'm I'll share the links. Perfect. We'll link them. Absolutely. And in terms of other work that's going on, so we have an amazing developer relations, developer advocacy team at MongoDB. I have a number of my colleagues, Richmond Alec, Apurva, Jesse Hall, you name it, Anaya. So all these folks are really working on","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-116","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":117,"time":"39:17","seconds":2357,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"giving developers the tools that they need to build these systems. So I would encourage people to follow the MongoDB LinkedIn account. MongoDB has a YouTube channel as well, and we're present on Medium, Dev. Two, all that stuff. So everything that we'll be producing, including our thought leadership pieces around agent ops, around solving memory for multi agent systems, will be on those channels. Fantastic.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-117","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":118,"time":"39:44","seconds":2384,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"For our listeners, you can learn more about building next generation AI applications with MongoDB and Galileo out at Galileo's new free AI reliability platform available at galileo.ai. Check it out. Try it out. Give us some feedback. Build a great application. Build a great agent. Leverage Mongo as your data store, and, let us know how we can improve. We'll have links to everything we discussed today in the show notes. That's all for this episode of Chain of Thought. Don't forget to share it with your friends if you enjoyed it. And, Micky, thanks again for coming on the show.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-118","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar","episode":33,"guid":"4fa9748a-ccb7-4733-9cc4-ff384979b54c","episodeTitle":"Mastering Multi-Agent Systems | MongoDB’s Mikiko Chandrasekhar","publishedAt":"2025-07-23","segmentIndex":119,"time":"40:10","seconds":2410,"speaker":"Mikiko Chandrasekhar","text":"Absolutely. Thanks for having me.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/33-mastering-multi-agent-systems-mongodbs-mikiko-chandrasekhar/#t-119","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:04","seconds":4,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Welcome back to Chain of Thought, everyone. I am your host, Conor Bronsdon. And today, we're tackling one of the most urgent challenges in our industry, how we build trust and reliability into the next generation of AI agents. And this is a topic you've probably heard myself talk about. You've probably heard Galileo CEO, Vikram Chatterji, who's joining us in a second, talk about.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:24","seconds":24,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And it's definitely something we're gonna cover in our conversation and interview that will air in the back half of this episode with Philipp Krenn, director of developer relations at Elastic, as this topic is very close to all of our hearts. But first, to set the stage, Vikram, it's great to see you. Welcome back to Chain of Thaw. Thank you so much, Conor. It's good to be back here again.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":2,"time":"0:45","seconds":45,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I mean, our listeners here aren't able to access this part, but I have to say I've been really enjoying your internal chain of thoughts that you've been putting out for Galileo team members internally. Maybe we'll leak a couple minutes of some of those at some point, but it's been a lot of fun hearing your insights and your perspective. And I think that's what I value so much about these conversations is obviously the team at Galileo has been hard at work. We've just launched our free AI reliability platform for improving agents. Go check it out at galileo.ai.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:16","seconds":76,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"There's so much more information there. We think there's incredible tools that every developer and AI builder is gonna love. But we wanna highlight a few of the biggest announcements and talk about why they matter because we're using these terms reliability and trust to talk about why our suite of Luna two small language models matter for real time guardrails and scalable evaluations.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":4,"time":"1:36","seconds":96,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"We have our new insights engine, and this all means what exactly for engineering teams everywhere? So at the core of that conversation is agent reliability. Vikram, why is Galileo, and why are you so laser focused on agent reliability?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":5,"time":"1:53","seconds":113,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Overall, we're focused on the concept of reliability, right, because that's the number one problem that's plaguing most enterprise AI teams today. They it's easy to get from zero to POC, going from POC to production. It has always been an age old problem in data science, and it's no different now, especially with developers and data science teams kind of almost merging together with this and becoming this new","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":6,"time":"2:19","seconds":139,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"concept of an AI engineer, the need for understanding how reliability can actually occur, and they can sleep at night knowing that things are going to be safe for this non victimistic system is extremely important. The way we look at this is when it comes to agent reliability, it's two things. One is the reliability problem just becomes 100x more crucial because agents are more complex as a system. Like when we talk to developers in these organizations that are that have gone through, you know, prompt engineering two years ago, and that being the end all and be all of","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":7,"time":"2:52","seconds":172,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"application development to kind of Rag based architectures, and then more complex Rag based architectures with multi tone chat systems, to now, you know, using these models as essentially smart routers to plan tasks and call different kinds of models and perform actions, has done something really interesting in the industry. That is, you move from chat completion to task completion,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":8,"time":"3:16","seconds":196,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"and essentially because of that, the ideas that organizations have around what the use cases can be have just exploded. They've gone out of the realm of just a chat interface now, where to do literally completely any task. So there are billions of dollars of OpEx at at stake here to reduce within organizations. Right? And then, of course, there's all the other side of revenue increase. So given the criticality","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":9,"time":"3:40","seconds":220,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"of these agentic systems when it comes to the future of running businesses, as well as the criticality of the importance of the of the reliability problem overall, in the emerge whether these things together, agent reliability, we think is going to be an extremely crucial part of the future of AI, and that's why we've been focused on it for the last year and a half, frankly, from some earliest developers who were working on agentic systems, when they weren't even going this, they were just shocked","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":10,"time":"4:08","seconds":248,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"by I don't think I can name them here, but they were just shocked by the idea that, hey, we just use this model to call the right kind of model. We used this model router. They weren't there was no concept of an MCP based tool protocol for calling tools in the right way. There was no concept of tools that we were all galvanized on. But as that started to mature more and more, we've gotten to this point where we feel like","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":11,"time":"4:27","seconds":267,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"2025 is the year where the protocols and everything else is gonna come in place. But by the end of the year and early next, it's gonna be cats out of the bag, and everyone's gonna be building out agents everywhere. So it's extremely, extremely critical problem to solve.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":12,"time":"4:38","seconds":278,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Completely agreed. And I think we see this need for reliability in AI everywhere,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":13,"time":"4:44","seconds":284,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"both from a standpoint of building trust with customers and users, and also major examples. I mean, we just saw last week, Grok four ran wild on X- That's right. After new alignment changes were made, and they had to shut the whole thing down and kind of reassess. And I mean, that's exactly the kind of problem that we're looking to solve, and that paradigm needs to change for AI builders.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":14,"time":"5:05","seconds":305,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"That's right. And if you talk to anybody who's been building out","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":15,"time":"5:09","seconds":309,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"applications where there is some kind of massive amounts of tool calling and different kinds of paths that the application can take, which tends to happen as soon as you're creating any kind of a, like a multi turn based task overall. And what happens there when you talk to the developers is they'll tell you very quickly that debugging and understanding where things went wrong and understanding what the failure modes have are extremely hard.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":16,"time":"5:35","seconds":335,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"We've all faced this firsthand if you're building out applications, but when you're doing this in production, and the stakes are pretty high, you've got make mistakes. So yes, what happened with Rock is, and really an interesting tidbit, and then, you know, when you look at this at scale across these organizations where they have to adopt AI and they have to adopt agentic systems and they're going all in,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":17,"time":"5:55","seconds":355,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"they can't do that unless they have, reliability protocols in place.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":18,"time":"5:59","seconds":359,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Completely agreed.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":19,"time":"6:00","seconds":360,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And Galileo's previous work developing a data and measurement layer for enterprise grade evaluations at companies like Comcast and and Reddit and and many others has really enabled a lot of our new announcements here, such as the Insights Engine, which we were super excited to unveil to the public yesterday. You tell us a bit about that Insights layer?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":20,"time":"6:18","seconds":378,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Yeah, so, I mean, at the core of what we do at Galileo is we've always been focused on the measurement problem of AI. We've not built the world's hundredth first","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":21,"time":"6:28","seconds":388,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"orchestration system, and it's, you know, all of that stuff. But the focus for us has always been on building out the measurement, solving the measurement problem. At the core of that lies the developer experience, where they don't want to get to necessarily a UI where they're plowing through hundreds of metrics to make sense of it all, right? So when you talk to developers, they wanna shift left as much as possible. They wanna move towards not having to go through each and every single","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":22,"time":"6:57","seconds":417,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"node to understand what's going wrong, but instead they wanna figure out what the failure modes are early on so that they can try to fix it. Further shifting left from there is taking all of these different insights, and then actually putting them inside of the code itself, and inside of the browser, and feel like we're all gonna start moving in that direction,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":23,"time":"7:13","seconds":433,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"and that's what RCA for these kinds of agent application development is going to look like. So this is one big step in that direction where we figure out that, hey, if you want to eventually build out self learning or self healing agents, you need to have some kind of an engine that's constantly observing all the logs, constantly understanding all the different metrics, custom or otherwise, that have been built out, and really figure out from there using a reasoning engine and reasoning model","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":24,"time":"7:41","seconds":461,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"what the potential failure modes are, and give that back to the developer. So that's essentially what we've done. We've taken all the logs and all the data that we sit on, whether you build out this reasoning engine based insights engine, which helps with automatically surfacing these kinds of failure modes. And what we've seen in this, in the early beta of this application, is it really quickly becomes","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":25,"time":"8:05","seconds":485,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"very hard to live without, because now you don't have to kind of go into the weeds of every single node instead. You're just getting a bunch of insights out of the box, and the game of whack a mole becomes much easier, because now you know exactly what's going wrong. You can start to fix it and see whether that actually worked or not. So the main key components of the Insight Engine is automatically providing failure mode analysis and giving that back to the developer, number one. Number two,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":26,"time":"8:30","seconds":510,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"letting them know how often that occurred and whether that's a one off or it's a frequently occurring problem. Number three is not just telling them here's a problem, but actually telling them what's the solution, and then moving towards what they need to specifically fix as a next step. So it's extremely action oriented.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":27,"time":"8:46","seconds":526,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Completely think that is the right direction. As we've thought about this, it's really clear that, yes, like we have added new agent metrics and we can talk about that. Those are, I think, really exciting. They're helpful. Yes, we've added new observability views where you can interface with what's happening with your agent and your AI systems in different ways. Those are important too.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":28,"time":"9:06","seconds":546,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"But it's this automation to the insights layer, the insights engine that we've built, that now can take those inputs and just automatically identify failure points, help you with that root cause analysis, let you debug faster, and just give you improvement opportunities that you can then apply, and then watch for these failures in production with guardrails through our Luna two SLM models. I think this is where we see this holistic reliability story coming together.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":29,"time":"9:32","seconds":572,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And to me, it seems super clear that the insights engine is what's gonna power our next level of like, okay, now we have evaluation agents that are working for you full time,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":30,"time":"9:43","seconds":583,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and we're moving away from the static evaluation layer.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":31,"time":"9:45","seconds":585,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Yep, that's exactly right. It's a natural evolution, I think, in the world of evaluations, and this is something which has been very core to us because we've always thought of our DNA being very much about the applied data science side of things, the infrastructure side of things, and this fits exactly in that bucket, right? It's not about just the software layer and having a UI where you can see graphs and charts. That's really not what the developers are looking for. They want the algorithms. They want the infrastructure aspect of this abstracted away. Like in order to provide these insights with millisecond agencies inside of our UI or through our API,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":32,"time":"10:22","seconds":622,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"took, takes a lot of work from an infrastructure perspective. So that's exactly what we've we've been working on, and we're super excited to launch this, and this is the first step towards this direction of making sure that all these agents can be self healing and self improving over time.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":33,"time":"10:35","seconds":635,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"100%. We want developers to be able to spend more time improving the product and less time digging through logs.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":34,"time":"10:42","seconds":642,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Yep, exactly. And they don't wanna do that. They don't wanna dig through the logs all the time.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":35,"time":"10:46","seconds":646,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So this engine is great. It provides real time analytics, helps you identify root causes,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":36,"time":"10:53","seconds":653,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"evaluations at scale, but it requires some serious horsepower to do this as you try to bring this to enterprise systems. We've built Luna two, a family of small language models to help power that, to help power real time guardrails. Yep. What makes these small language models, these SLMs, the right choice for this job versus using an LLM like GPT-four for every evaluation?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":37,"time":"11:16","seconds":676,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"So just to tie the two things together, Insights and Luna, they're at different parts of the SDLC life cycle. Cycle, right? So there's the building side of things and the observability side of things, which is where the main pain point that developers have is what's going wrong? What should I do next? And I tried to fix it. Did it fix the problem? That's kind of where they sit, and that's where the insights engine is trying to set them up for success by making that entire process 10x faster.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":38,"time":"11:46","seconds":706,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Now, once you actually do identify some kind of a failure mode, let's say the insights engine says that here are three different tools that are kind of doing the same thing, especially this one tool over here seems to be messing up in this specific way. That's an indicator to the developer that they might want to just quickly create a metric, a bespoke metric to detect that, to see if that's happening over and over again. Let's say they've done that. Now what happens when you actually go into production and at scale, you want to be able to see if that's happening at scale, and if that exact tool malfunctions in that exact way, which the insights engine has already told you that it did.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":39,"time":"12:19","seconds":739,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"You want to take an action on that, and that's kind of where now Galileo is in the mix of the user experience, because before the task gets completed, if the tool malfunctions, we want to be able to block that action completely, or take a different kind of action. Now, in order to do this, you had to provide this kind of, the metric computation and inference has to happen with millisecond latencies, and with a fraction, a massive fraction of the cost of a large language model.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":40,"time":"12:46","seconds":766,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"And then we surveyed the ecosystem about a year and a half ago, and we embarked on our LUNA journey. We realized that what people were doing in production was just using an open AI model or a very large model to do this, and the question simply was, this is not sustainable. It's going to cost you millions of dollars at scale, as long as your product is at that scale,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":41,"time":"13:07","seconds":787,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"and it's going to be super, super slow. And that's kind of where our research came in around using some of the smaller language models, but also there, Garner, we realized that just using, let's say, a LAMA model or something like that, we experimented with a bunch of them, wasn't gonna be good enough, right? You have to, because they're built for reasoning. It's kind of like using a really large tank, whereas you could just use a small pistol, and so instead of","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":42,"time":"13:33","seconds":813,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"of just using these models out of the box, we had to dramatically work on some of these open source models to make them a bespoke single token generator evaluation focused version of itself, which can be easily fine tuned with data which is built for evaluations, such that they can be extremely adaptive to any kind of use case. And that's the Luna two set of models that we have now come out in the market with, which is much more generalizable","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":43,"time":"14:03","seconds":843,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"than LunaOne, which is based on the BERT models at its very, very core.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":44,"time":"14:06","seconds":846,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I think an important point of this, and what you're alluding to when you talk about stripping this model down and focusing it, is how much cheaper it becomes. This is something we've heard from major customers who are looking to scale to millions of traces a day. That gets really expensive if you're doing a GPT model for all your evals. Whereas Luna can not only enable the custom metrics you need, the lower latencies that you need, but also do it at much reduced cost. So you can actually have evaluations and guardrails in production.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":45,"time":"14:35","seconds":875,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And it's also enabling us to create new sophisticated agent metrics like flow adherence, action advancement, action completion. That's right. Why do you think both out of the box and custom metrics are so critical for ensuring agent reliability","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":46,"time":"14:51","seconds":891,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"as we go into these larger multi agent systems?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":47,"time":"14:54","seconds":894,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"The way we think of the out of the box metrics is, imagine you're driving a car, and the car stops functioning at some point. There are certain attributes of the car that are just common across most cars. They'll always have an engine, they'll always have like windshields, etcetera, etcetera. So at the very minimum, at any given point in time, you need to know the health of those specific pieces, and if it starts going south, then you want to be able to know what's gone wrong.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":48,"time":"15:20","seconds":920,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Why we, we would rather not build this. So the reason we did this is because out of the box, you need to know what's going wrong as a developer. You need to know what's going wrong in an unsupervised way because you have no ground truth at that point, right? So that zero to one problem is really, really key, and that's why we built these out. The second reason we did this is because going back to the car analogy,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":49,"time":"15:40","seconds":940,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"not everyone's a mechanic. Not everyone can go in and actually build the world's best engine quality metric for the guards, and then start detecting it constantly, build the right sensors and all of that stuff. So we realized that when it comes to RAG systems, when it comes to even agentic systems, there are certain things that you would want as a developer, can be really, really cool to just have out of the box in an unsupervised way. And the reason why we also did this and we own this versus just, you know, boning it off to a third party metric system,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":50,"time":"16:10","seconds":970,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"is because we realized that out of the box, the quality and accuracy of these metrics have to be really high. And so we have, as our listeners probably know at this point, we have a very large applied data science team, and we always have since day one because and they've been focused on the problem of measurement. And so their whole role is focused on the idea of how do you make these out of the box metrics even more","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":51,"time":"16:31","seconds":991,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"high performing? Should we use different kinds of models? Should we use different kinds of algorithms? You've published research papers on this, and that's the reason we keep pushing on out of the box metrics, but then at the same time, you don't just have the engine problems, right, in the cars. You also might have some use case specific problems. You're driving in the night, driving in the wintertime,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":52,"time":"16:49","seconds":1009,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"you might want to have some extra precautionary measures, which we have no idea about. It's very bespoke to our use case, and so that's where we've come up with this idea, this notion of making it pretty, very easy for any of our developer users, our product manager users, our subject matter expert users to do their own custom metrics for agents as well.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":53,"time":"17:05","seconds":1025,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I think this idea of, look, everyone still has a car. We can apply certain these metrics across domains","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":54,"time":"17:13","seconds":1033,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"is something that's really shown well and demonstrated effectively in our agent leaderboard. And I'll say, anyone who's listening to this episode, day of release, there's a little sneak peek here. Our new agent leaderboard v two is actually live at galileo.ai/agentleaderboard, and it includes average action completion as well as tool selection quality metrics across multiple domains. So you can actually slice and dice based off of banking, health care, insurance, investment, telecom.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":55,"time":"17:42","seconds":1062,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"We're gonna add more domains over time. We're gonna keep on adding more of our out of the box metrics. But I'll give a sneak peek and say that GPT model did top that chart for action completion, and Quinn actually made the top four. So super interesting data there. We're going to be releasing a lot more about that in the following days and weeks. Go check that out and learn more about how we approach our agent metrics and how different","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":56,"time":"18:04","seconds":1084,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"LLMs actually effectively evaluate with those metrics and how they perform in real world agentic scenarios. And we're going to keep on pushing on this because as you point out, Vikram, yes, like there's stuff we can do out of the box. There are things we can evaluate to make sure we actually understand the effectiveness of these different models, these different systems, especially cross domains, which I think is really crucial for companies are listening that are maybe in health care and they say, hey, I need something that actually works really well in this domain specifically.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":57,"time":"18:32","seconds":1112,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"But if we just take a cookie cutter approach, we're never truly going to solve the problems of enterprises that have unique customer sets, unique data sets. And that's where I think the customization element and the scaling element that's enabled by Luna two really","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":58,"time":"18:49","seconds":1129,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"comes in for us, why it's such a crucial piece of how we're approaching agent and AI reliability more broadly. Exactly.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":59,"time":"18:55","seconds":1135,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"I'm excited about the results from the agent and leaderboard, and it's also frankly very extremely crucial and important for a lot of our enterprise customers, to have a Switzerland that's kind of looking at this and has high quality data to look at it. And it's all the data and everything else and the measurement, everything else is out there","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":60,"time":"19:13","seconds":1153,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"on GitHub for people to see, so nothing's behind closed doors for this.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":61,"time":"19:16","seconds":1156,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, and, and anyone who wants to start leveraging Galileo models or our platform for observability evaluations, I'll say another key piece of the story is our integrations approach, where we want to be agnostic of whatever type of agents you may be building, whether it's CrewAI, whether you're doing something with","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":62,"time":"19:34","seconds":1174,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"LangChain, whether you're working with Lama Index, or, whether you're bringing in REG components from Pinecone or Weaviate or MongoDB or Elastic. We can help. We work with all these companies. We're partners with folks like NVIDIA and many of the people I just named. And our goal is to be truly agnostic of whatever you want to bring to the table and help you customize your system in whatever ways you need.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":63,"time":"19:57","seconds":1197,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Viktor, are there any other closing thoughts you have about our agent reliability announcements that you want to share with the audience?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":64,"time":"20:02","seconds":1202,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"I'll just say we're just getting started on this. And a lot of this is very exciting. It's a culmination of a lot of work that's been going on for the last many, many months, but then there's a lot of other very exciting stuff that's in the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":65,"time":"20:14","seconds":1214,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"hopper right now that we will be coming out to market with. So very excited for developers to just try Galileo out for free. If you're building out agents, no matter who you are, where you are, you go to galileo.ai and just sign up for free, and you could start using our platform. If you wanna help with anything, please reach out at any point in time. We'd love to hear from you. But there's a lot more coming out, which has never been seen before, so I'm very excited about that. We're we make some bold moves all the time, and so we're excited about what, what's coming up soon. And hopefully, developers love it and would love feedback.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":66,"time":"20:42","seconds":1242,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"100 agree. Definitely give us that feedback. We'd love to hear from you on social media, whether it's about this episode, about the features, or anything else. Vikram, thank you so much for setting the stage and sharing the vision behind the agent reliability platform.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":67,"time":"20:53","seconds":1253,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Of course. Thank you. Thanks, Conor.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":68,"time":"20:55","seconds":1255,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And when we come back, you'll hear my conversation with Philipp Krenn, head of developer advocacy at Elastic and a key partner of ours in that platform. Stay with us.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":69,"time":"21:06","seconds":1266,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"For decades, the search box was our primary window to information. Now, AI agents are becoming our proactive partners in discovery and action. But for an agent to be trusted and accurate as a partner, it must be reliable. The link between the information on agent retrieval and the action it takes is where the promise of AI meets that of production risk. And that's why I'm excited to have Philipp Krenn, Director of Developer Relations at Elastic here with me today. Philipp, thank you so much for joining me. Thanks for having me, Conor. Yeah, I'm excited to have a conversation about how Elastic is enabling","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":70,"time":"21:42","seconds":1302,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"incredible innovation in the AI space, how we're working together with Galileo, and so much more about building, observing, and absolutely nailing these agentic and other AI systems. Let's start with, you know, who are Elastic? Like, what are y'all doing in the AI space? People may know you as a company that's been public since 2018.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":71,"time":"22:02","seconds":1322,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"What are you up to now?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":72,"time":"22:04","seconds":1324,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"So, we've been doing search for a long time. So, if you search anywhere on the Internet, there's a good chance that you use Elasticsearch in the background without doing even knowing. So, my classic examples are if you search in Wikipedia or Stack Overflow behind the search box, we're doing the search for you. If you do anything on GitHub, almost everything on GitHub is cached or powered by Elasticsearch in the background, so they use us very heavily. I didn't know that. And many, many other places.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":73,"time":"22:28","seconds":1348,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"So now, I feel like all the excitement has shifted over to AI. Yeah. Where data is still important, you need to bring your private data or you need to bring bring more up to date data. So we're very happy to also participate in in that and bring you your data like we did before. I love it. What's next for Elastic as you continue to grow in this AI space? Right. So I feel like we have, for a long time we've been being kind of like the data in the background. But with AI, it's like the the interaction mode almost changes. Like, one of the hype topics right now is MCP.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-73","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":74,"time":"23:03","seconds":1383,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"So historically, we've always had REST APIs. But now you don't want to work against one specific REST API of your data store or whatever other systems you have. But you will let your LLMs just figure it out and say, this is the MCP connection that you need. Get the right data, see what actions you can run. So just switching that interaction mode for us is a big thing right now, having a proper MCP server,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-74","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":75,"time":"23:29","seconds":1409,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"And it's just from fetching data as the first step, but also interacting with it. So you could just say like, build me a Kibana dashboard that looks in a certain way. Things like that is more descriptive. You don't need to know the tool like maybe inside out to write the queries yourself, but you can just more talk to it or also automate away little stupid problems like generating test data. Now you could just tell that the LLM is like, oh, look at this mapping.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-75","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":76,"time":"23:57","seconds":1437,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"Generate me a 100 documents with this type of data in there. I think there are a lot of little things that we can do today to make us actually much better overall, even though each one of those might not look like a huge improvement. It's all of these combined that really move us forward, plus everything that we've been doing with Rag lately that search is just a very different game than it used to be before. So let's focus on that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-76","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":77,"time":"24:19","seconds":1459,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"If I am a builder who is creating something with AI today, whether that's an agent, someone with some sort of compound system,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-77","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":78,"time":"24:27","seconds":1467,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"or a workflow, anything else.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-78","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":79,"time":"24:28","seconds":1468,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"How would I leverage Elastic?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-79","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":80,"time":"24:31","seconds":1471,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"So we're generally best used to keep your data, your LLM like classic rag application, where you do the retrieval first, you get the right context, and then you generate the output with your LLM. We could also be used, for example, to cache results, like if somebody has a very similar question, you might be able to skip like regenerating with the LLM, but you just to get faster and also cheaper answer, you just reuse a similar question from before.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-80","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":81,"time":"24:58","seconds":1498,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"And then, of course, there is the evaluation side since we are also doing OpenTelemetry and the classic ELX stack has been doing logging, and it's doing a lot more than classic logging nowadays with OpenTelemetry. We can collect all of the data. So we we go from keeping your data and driving your answers","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-81","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":82,"time":"25:16","seconds":1516,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"to then potentially seeing how they are performing in terms of like, other quality, but also performance, cost, all of those.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-82","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":83,"time":"25:22","seconds":1522,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And developers, if you are using the OpenTelemetry standard to work with Elastic, guess what? You can also use it to work with Galileo, and bring a lot of that observability data in, and begin to evaluate it, which is why I'm super excited that we are partnered and integrated with Elastic.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-83","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":84,"time":"25:38","seconds":1538,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It's been so fun getting to know your team and and working with you over the last couple months. How do Galileo and Elastic work together?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-84","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":85,"time":"25:45","seconds":1545,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"Yeah. It's it's great to see that you're bringing that aggregation side, and we're happy to be the the data store to kind of like keep all of that. But pulling out the information the right way and then using OTLP, like the the wire protocol for OpenTelemetry, to integrate all of that, that's that's great. And that's kind of like feel like maybe this is a bad comparison,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-85","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":86,"time":"26:07","seconds":1567,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"MCP is kind of like the protocol for AI and OpenTelemetry is the protocol for all telemetry data more or less. So in a similar way, we standardize on these protocols, and then it just allows us and everybody else to partner much better together.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-86","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":87,"time":"26:21","seconds":1581,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And, how do metrics for agents with Galileo work with agents that are leveraging Elastic as their, you know, reg store and search option?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-87","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":88,"time":"26:33","seconds":1593,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"Galileo helps developers be the guardrails for your data, for your LLM generated data. So, we're happy to store the results of that and then kind of like be part of the evaluation of like how things have been going. But, we're not doing, like, the evaluation itself. We'll we're happy to leave that up to Galileo to to figure that out.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-88","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":89,"time":"26:51","seconds":1611,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"What are you excited about in this new world of AI agents and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-89","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":90,"time":"26:57","seconds":1617,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"the onrush of all these AI applications?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-90","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":91,"time":"27:00","seconds":1620,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"Yeah. I I always need to preface this. I'm European, so we are maybe slightly less excited.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-91","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":92,"time":"27:05","seconds":1625,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"But I'd","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-92","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":93,"time":"27:07","seconds":1627,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"so I I think You're laughing. You're excited. Yeah. We are excited. No. No. We are excited. AI is exciting. I think it's the classic problem of like we're often like over focused and like today and like it's the classic story. My example is always self driving cars. Like they were a big thing or everybody had high hopes like a couple of years ago and it didn't quite happen back then. Yeah. But nowadays, they're on the street. Like, I'm driving with a Waymo pretty frequently. It's just doing its thing. I think AI is a similar idea that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-93","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":94,"time":"27:36","seconds":1656,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"we have a lot of work to do and it's still early days, but there will be a lot of that coming out even though it might take a bit longer until we get to that like production. Like this is what happens in reality phase, and we're trying to do a lot of things. Maybe it takes a little longer to actually get to the end goal, but we're on that journey. So it's definitely exciting to be part of that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-94","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":95,"time":"27:56","seconds":1676,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"But I'm also sometimes cautioning people that it might just take a little longer to get to the that final result or even if you don't see today or it's more like, this is an interesting thing. It might not happen in reality yet, but there will be some major changes coming. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-95","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":96,"time":"28:11","seconds":1691,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"What about Galileo and Elastic together? How can we continue to build out what we're already doing? What what can we grow into, do you think?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-96","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":97,"time":"28:19","seconds":1699,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"Yeah. So I think along the journey of, like, LLMs becoming a more integral part of the workflow and everything, I think that evaluation side is like you don't have too many hallucinations or you can figure out, like, how good the quality is.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-97","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":98,"time":"28:34","seconds":1714,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"It will also have other aspects around like performance. I feel like initially we were very forgiving to LLMs like, it would take like five seconds to generate an answer. Maybe that will change that people will require faster answers. Cost is always a question, though I think the cost of LLMs actually is decreasing quite rapidly. So that the initial fear that it would be hugely expensive has","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-98","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":99,"time":"28:58","seconds":1738,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"come a bit less of a fear, but cost management is still a thing. Totally. For performance, like my favorite story there is always that I remember like a couple of years ago when people were using Elasticsearch and running a query, they would say like, oh, it takes two hundred milliseconds to get the response back. That's unacceptably slow. And now it's oftentimes like, oh, LLM takes five seconds to give me an answer. That's perfectly fine. So I think we're still like this early excitement","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-99","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":100,"time":"29:23","seconds":1763,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"where we're a bit more forgiving, but that will also change. Like having fast answers and faster response times, having it more real time, I think that will be something that will become more and more important, and then the evaluations are great for that. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-100","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":101,"time":"29:38","seconds":1778,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I think for me, we're seeing a lot of the same stuff here, where the challenge now is more about how do we create enough trust for enterprises to go to production with their AI.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-101","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":102,"time":"29:48","seconds":1788,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"Right. Because like, at first you have the novelty and like everything is new and exciting,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-102","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":103,"time":"29:53","seconds":1793,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"but as it becomes the standard in the workplace or also like in your private life, the standards will rise or like you need to rely on this, otherwise people will not accept it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-103","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":104,"time":"30:02","seconds":1802,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. And that's why we're talking about this phrase like reliability","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-104","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":105,"time":"30:06","seconds":1806,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"or, you know, predictability, because obviously the non determinism is the magic here, but we need to have an understanding of the bounds of when certain things will happen, particularly with agents and multi agentic systems. There's so much opportunity to solve knowledge work problems, to solve physical problems with when linked with robots. But if it goes completely off task, there are risks to that. And it's hard for","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-105","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":106,"time":"30:34","seconds":1834,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"major customers like financial service providers or other very consequential use cases to go to production with AI when we're not able to provide them guardrails, when we're not able to help them have a more reliable system. That's a big part of why I know we're focused on reliability and why Elastic is focused on data reliability as well to back end all of this.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-106","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":107,"time":"30:52","seconds":1852,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"And I feel like we have almost gone through different cycles with that already. I feel like initially when LLMs came out, like many companies put them on their website as like, oh, you have this chat interaction. And then everybody could talk the LLM into saying something stupid. Like, it's like, oh, yeah. You can cancel your flight for free. I think there was even a court case in Canada or so where somebody You lie. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-107","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":108,"time":"31:13","seconds":1873,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"Where the airline lost that case and, like like, because it was their agent, then, well, the result kind of, like, had to to stick. And and I feel like then in the next phase, a lot of companies kind of, like, took the LLM sometimes back and not not let them have these interactions because they could just be talked into doing the wrong stuff too easily. So I think today, a lot of the interactions are often more inside companies because it's more like you have you don't have malicious actors, but you have your employees who hopefully try to just do their job, but not talk the LLM into doing something weird. But I I think if we have the right guardrails in place, the LLMs will take a more front and center customer facing seat again, and if they can be trusted.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-108","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":109,"time":"31:52","seconds":1912,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So let's, I mean, let's assume that Galileo and Elastic together will be able to help these LLMs be trusted and guardrail and set up right. Oh, you know, we'll get back to that. Let's assume we do. What's that picture of the future look like? What does it look like when we have reliable production grade agents and systems that are in place? How do you think our, our day to day will change?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-109","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":110,"time":"32:17","seconds":1937,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"I hope I will never have to call any hotlines again. Oh, please. Or I have to wait on some chat system or like some agent to answer my questions. So I think there is just like from the interaction mode will become nicer and easier for And we we don't have to have abused people on like some phone hotline to to take one angry customer call after the other. So I think there is something for everybody to win.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-110","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":111,"time":"32:47","seconds":1967,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"And then I hope to free these people up to actually, I don't know, solve the problem in the background rather than just taking the call and then forwarding it. So, it's Some people are very pessimistic and are like, oh, people will get lose their jobs and things will change. I feel like we've always had that since the industrial revolution people have been oh automation is bad and everybody will lose their job. Doesn't seem to have happened yet. I don't think it will happen now.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-111","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":112,"time":"33:10","seconds":1990,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"I just hope we can shift our work a bit. Like initially you had to do a lot of manual labor, then that shifted. I think now there are a lot of very repetitive tasks that can be automated away, but there is still a lot of other work to do in the background. So I'm not afraid for people to lose all their jobs, but just to move us to the next way of interaction and how things are going.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-112","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":113,"time":"33:37","seconds":2017,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Speaking of background work, a lot of that is happening through things we've already talked a bit about, like guardrailing, evaluations, observability, so that you can actually ensure the reliability and trustworthiness of these systems that everyone's building. What would be your advice to developers who are building with agent frameworks, are experimenting with AI, who are trying to go to production about how to approach","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-113","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":114,"time":"33:59","seconds":2039,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"all the work that goes into making that magic happen.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-114","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":115,"time":"34:03","seconds":2043,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"Yeah. It's it's interesting because I feel like it's very easy to get started and build, but really getting it to production is a is a hard problem. Yeah. And I think guardrails are like a very important part, and you really need that evaluation side of saying like, okay, it is actually doing what I want it to do. It is also kind of like in within the expectation of cost and performance","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-115","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":116,"time":"34:26","seconds":2066,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"because nobody wants to put out a system that gives you a bad user experience. Totally. So I think going to production is like you need to have the right tools. Having been in the observability space for a while, it's like oftentimes it's an afterthought. It will be the same for AI, but people will figure out sooner or later that it shouldn't be an afterthought and you need to actively work on that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-116","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":117,"time":"34:49","seconds":2089,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"Maybe AI even puts you in a better position there because like with the hallucinations and giving wrong answers, like you have an even stronger business impact. Yeah. Or like business drive to give the right answers.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-117","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":118,"time":"35:01","seconds":2101,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Are there particular areas about what's coming with AI or what's happening today that you think people aren't paying enough attention to?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-118","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":119,"time":"35:08","seconds":2108,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"I think evaluations have been one of these areas that have been underserved. So I was last year there sorry, last week, there was AI. Engineer, the big conference around everything AI. And they had a track on evaluations, but it was one of the areas where people were excited and very interested, I would say, just because we've been building for a while. And the building initially was great, but now we're really is like, how are things improving or changing? The same for search that you can","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-119","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":120,"time":"35:38","seconds":2138,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"you have like with vector search and with the LLMs generating the output, you can do a lot of things, but is it really improving the answers overall? And like oftentimes people don't have like any system in place to figure that out. You just throw something out, you hope it's better, but you don't really know. And as we are progressing, I think that that feedback loop will need to become better because you have now so many options.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-120","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":121,"time":"36:01","seconds":2161,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"But options also force you to make the right choice. And finding or making better decisions is an important part of that. I've been passionate for technology for a long time. Yeah. I think it's now it's an exciting phase. Totally. Being at Elastic, or working on Elasticsearch, search was oftentimes, like, not an afterthought, but it was not a fancy problem anymore because search was never solved. But it wasn't, like, so center as it is nowadays.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-121","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":122,"time":"36:31","seconds":2191,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"Search is suddenly interesting again and also has budget Yeah. Which almost surprised us. Or no. It doesn't surprise us, but it's like we always thought it should have the budget that it suddenly now has, but people have like this expectation that you can get much more out of search again and the data that you have. So that is there's a good change. And I think just like as AI gets into other areas,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-122","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":123,"time":"36:54","seconds":2214,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"has a rippling effect into many other things like observability just interacting with your data and figuring out what what you have in all the observability data that you have collected. It just gives you great new options. And I always hope that we can get out of some of the more boring work and figure out more of the exciting work. It's like I think there's always this saying in data science, you spend 80% of your time cleaning up data. Yep. I think LLMs have actually added some interesting tools to make that a lot better and faster,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-123","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":124,"time":"37:23","seconds":2243,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"so we can focus more on the exciting stuff rather than the boring stuff. I hope that the same will happen to observability data in general or just to give you better tools to do things that were hard before or were very not necessarily even hard, like were boring.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-124","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":125,"time":"37:39","seconds":2259,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Well, you brought this up earlier, which is this idea of change and how constant it is and the shift from so many folks working in farming and fields and hard physical labor to where we are today. And we're seeing this new paradigm shift occur, but there's always little paradigm changes. So I'm with you on A, like I think this broad systemic change is going to continue to happen and we have to continue to adapt and like,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-125","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":126,"time":"38:04","seconds":2284,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"that's just a constant. We can't expect the job will stay the same. I'm also optimistic that many of the drudgery tasks are going to be automated out. I mean, you brought up one earlier, which is like, I don't really write tests anymore. Like I might edit them, but like, I don't love writing tests. Also, let's be honest, I've said this on the show before, I'm not the best dev out there. There's a reason I talk about things for a living. I'm not always building things for a living and and working production environments all the time. So it's nice to not have to spend as much time on that. And I think there's plenty of other examples of this that folks are using.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-126","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":127,"time":"38:35","seconds":2315,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"Oh, yeah. I I think there have been many boring tasks that were hard to get rid of in the past.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-127","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":128,"time":"38:42","seconds":2322,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"But it's like, yeah, before we had the right machines, we had to do the menu labor. There was no way around it. Now we hopefully can do more of the interesting stuff. I think there this is like a a great example of the partnership that Elastic and Galileo have. What models does a company build? And at Elastic, we're not building large language models. The models that we build are about inference and then re ranking. And then we rely on our partners to provide either a large language model to generate the answer or like in Galileo's case with the new LUNA models on the evaluation side.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-128","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":129,"time":"39:15","seconds":2355,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"So I think that is one of the interesting aspects of like these partnerships that you can build so many things. And as we're building more, the small language model is actually an exciting space because of cost and latency that you want to build more of these. That I think there is a big area that is a bit underserved right now or where we're exploring more, like how can we just go from like these huge general purpose models to something that is more","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-129","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":130,"time":"39:43","seconds":2383,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"specialized, easier and cheaper to run, and has a much lower latency to get you to the results that you want to have? Because, yeah, a while ago people were very forgiving for latency because it's like this novelty, but that might not be the case anymore, and of course we want fast answers. So building more specialized models and give you what you want is a great space to explore.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-130","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":131,"time":"40:05","seconds":2405,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I completely agree, and we're really excited about launching our Luna two models to enable real time guardrailing and evaluations for things like private information leakage,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-131","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":132,"time":"40:15","seconds":2415,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"toxicity, prompt injection attacks, and prompt injection attacks. This real time guardrailing is so crucial to help create reliable, trustworthy AI systems. And it's really exciting to see Elastic also investing in small language models and the clear opportunity for these to dovetail and work together in building reliable multi agent AI systems is very exciting.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-132","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":133,"time":"40:40","seconds":2440,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Can you tell us more about Elastic's small language models and how developers can leverage them?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-133","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":134,"time":"40:43","seconds":2443,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"Yeah. So we we have","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-134","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":135,"time":"40:46","seconds":2446,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"we have built something for Elastic re ranking. It's like you retrieve a larger set of data and then you have a model that is more expensive than the regular ranking that you have to re rank like a subset. So we can run something a bit more expensive on a smaller subset of all the data. So let's assume you have a million documents and then you retrieve in the first step the first thousand, and then you run the re ranker, which is more expensive and a bit slower per document on that top thousand document list. That was a use case that was not really possible before, but now with a fast and efficient small language model for re ranking,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-135","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":136,"time":"41:19","seconds":2479,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"we give you that option. The same thing for creating the embeddings or the doing the inference. Right now, we heavily build on e five, which is a multilingual model. To do that in the dense vector space, we also have a custom model for the sparse vector space, which is basically keyword expansion to find related keywords. So there's a lot of excitement about doing these, and you don't need a general purpose large language model. They would be too expensive, too slow","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-136","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":137,"time":"41:46","seconds":2506,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"to do that anyway. So you need to find the right models. It's actually almost surprising. Feel like we haven't found that much in the more tuned or specific area for language models. So, example, if you have observability data, I remember people were already a year ago talking about like, we'll have something that evaluates that observability data and gives you the right output for that. I think to a large part, companies are still using general purpose large language models because they can do that and that's what's available.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-137","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":138,"time":"42:16","seconds":2536,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"I guess we'll have to see when people build more specialized models or maybe it's just too expensive to build more specialized models and we keep relying on the large ones. But that's an exciting space. But yeah, for something like the evaluation side, your latency requirements, your cost requirement will be pretty","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-138","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":139,"time":"42:35","seconds":2555,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"constrained, I guess. Yes. Yeah. That's why you need to build your own models to do that. Totally.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-139","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":140,"time":"42:40","seconds":2560,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And and we've worked with a lot of enterprise customers on this, and that's exactly what they come to us for is they say, hey, look, you know, this LM is a judge concept, we're using it, it doesn't scale to millions of traces necessarily. That gets really expensive. Latency becomes a real issue if we want to go into production.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-140","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":141,"time":"42:53","seconds":2573,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So I love that Elastic's also investing in small language models to help with key effectiveness and tasks.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-141","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":142,"time":"42:59","seconds":2579,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"Think it's very In our specific area,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-142","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":143,"time":"43:02","seconds":2582,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"that's and that's where all the partnerships kinda are coming from. I feel like I always describe this as like almost like a lasagna, like you have these little layers in the the AI lasagna. Yeah. So So you have these layers and everybody kind of like partners with the other layers. So we're happy to do the the storing of the data and then having the retrieval there.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-143","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":144,"time":"43:20","seconds":2600,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"But then you need the others for maybe for the evaluation side and give us a different frameworks. And there are so many layers in this AI lasagna right now. There are a lot of components. Yeah. So it's great to be able to build that lasagna","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-144","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":145,"time":"43:36","seconds":2616,"speaker":"Philipp Krenn","text":"or cake. Amazing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-145","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn","episode":32,"guid":"fb437799-f6ca-4d02-866b-82dfee4b8b56","episodeTitle":"The AI Agent Trust Gap: Bridging Risk to Reliability | Elastic’s Philipp Krenn","publishedAt":"2025-07-16","segmentIndex":146,"time":"43:37","seconds":2617,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Well, thank you so much for joining Really, us really enjoyed chatting with you. It's always good catching up with you, and I'm so excited to continue to build with Elastic. Everyone who wants to out there, you should check out our documentation, see some the examples we have built out, and give it a try with Galileo's new free AI reliability platform. There's so much you can build using Elastic for your search, for your reg, and it's a huge opportunity ahead, and we can't wait to build more together. Sounds great. Thanks, Philipp.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/32-the-ai-agent-trust-gap-bridging-risk-to-reliability-elastics-philipp-krenn/#t-146","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:05","seconds":5,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Welcome back to Chain of Thought, the podcast that positions builders to put AI into production. I'm your host, Conor Bronsdon, Head of Developer Awareness at Galileo. You may notice if you are watching on YouTube, we are not at home today. I'm not sitting in my office. I am delighted to be at Cisco's office on Santana Road in San Jose. And we're going be diving deep into the fascinating world of agent interoperability","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:31","seconds":31,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and the infrastructure that will power the next generation of AI systems. I'm thrilled to be joined by Giovanna Carofiglio. She's a distinguished engineer and senior director at Outshift by Cisco, where she's at the forefront of building the internet of agents. And we're delighted to be part of their agency collective effort with Langchain and with Galileo leading the steering committee alongside Ouchip by Cisco.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":2,"time":"0:56","seconds":56,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Giovanna brings an in-depth perspective to this conversation. She's one of Cisco's youngest distinguished engineers. She has an incredible research background, a background in mathematics, originally from Italy, based in Paris today, very jealous, with a remarkable background that spans from reinventing internet protocols with information centric networking,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:16","seconds":76,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"to now architecting the open standards that will enable AI agents to collaborate seamlessly across the enterprise and across what we think will be an Internet of Agents. Now, she's working to reinvent how the Internet's communication protocols will work with agents in particular. Giovanna, welcome to Chain of Thought. My pleasure. Thank you for having me. We really appreciate you making the time. I know you're only in The States for a couple weeks, and so it's fantastic that we got a chance to sit down with you. The timing really couldn't be better for this conversation","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":4,"time":"1:47","seconds":107,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"coming off the heels of Cisco Live and some of the really cool announcements there. Though this recording will likely go out in a couple of weeks, so if you already heard the announcements, pretend it's happening live for you right now. And there's so much momentum building around the agency collective, the open source collective that you are helping to lead.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":5,"time":"2:06","seconds":126,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"We're witnessing the foundation for this emerging agentic stack for a world where agents are embedded throughout the enterprise, throughout organizations. Giovanna, let's start with that big picture. What is agency? What is this collective we're talking about? And why is an Internet of agents what you think the future will be?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":6,"time":"2:27","seconds":147,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"Sure. So Agency is an open source collective that Cisco, Galileo and Langchain as founding members launched in March. And that's because we believe that in order to have agents coming together and collaborate, even when developed with different agentic framework and deployed remotely, that really calls for a new internet revolution as the one Cisco pioneered","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":7,"time":"2:58","seconds":178,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"many years ago, where we really provide the developers or the enterprise that deploys these agents the tooling for interoperable, large scale, distributed, agentic communication. And this is what agency is about. If you want to go through the main pillars of agency, essentially it's around identifying and discovering agents. We think that there will be agents specialized,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":8,"time":"3:31","seconds":211,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"bit like subject expert matters that we have in our teams in given domains or for doing given tasks or attached to tools. And for that to come together, what's important is that we enable a discovery. So this is what we call in agents, agent discovery and we have recently launched a week ago, the service that powers agent discovery and this is where we're going to be able to go and search agents","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":9,"time":"4:03","seconds":243,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"based on skills, based on publishers, based on compatibility with given tools, and based on their reputation, which is something that Galileo really helps build. So this is discovery phase. The second one, which is very important, is the compose and deploy. So once you have located these agents, what's really important is that they come together, again, where they are, they can be served as a service, they don't have to be deployed, which is most of the case these days.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":10,"time":"4:38","seconds":278,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"And they will interact again across the internet. For that to happen, what's important is that we rethink the agentic protocols. So we have seen a lot of protocols coming out these days, especially for agent to agent. ACP is a protocol we have worked on with lung chain as an extension of agentic protocols. A2A has been proposed recently by Google, and we want to support all of them. MCP","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":11,"time":"5:06","seconds":306,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"is a very popular protocol these days for agent to tool interaction. This happens at application layer, but for that to be efficient, and when I say efficient means secure, low latency, interactive, that also calls for a transport layer protocol, which is funny because this is what we were working on days ago with information centric networking. And this is what we are doing in agency","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":12,"time":"5:34","seconds":334,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"with a protocol named Slim that was recently announced in the past days, where that enables group based low latency secure interactive communication. I love That's one aspect, but I really want to go into observability and evaluation. Our favorite topic. Our topic that we work on with Galileo. I think this is really key to unleash the power of agentic application, because we need to help developers. So the the first step there, we are working together again with Galileo,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":13,"time":"6:09","seconds":369,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"LangChain, Traceloop, Pydantic and many other of the 50 and plus agency partners is to define an interoperable standard schema for agentic communications. This is the underlying layer for agents to be instrumented and to reconnect all the metric events, log traces, so the MELT telemetry that comes out of them, and we are trying to do that extending open telemetry standards, because of course agents will come within application","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":14,"time":"6:53","seconds":413,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"and we want that to be as open as possible. And so there we are driving the communication standards. We recently released two days ago, the SDK that supports the schema and we are working with partners such as Galileo and the collective. That's the foundation, but what really excites us is that it really opened then to doing a bit more than just providing visibility.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":15,"time":"7:25","seconds":445,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"So the next step, and this is something that we really think is important, is to be able to explain this agentic communication. So today, we have seen a lot of in agent observability or even evaluation. What we want to do next is really to provide the visibility of the agentic graph. Know Galileo has released these days a way to reconstruct the agentic graph.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":16,"time":"8:02","seconds":482,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"This is very important. We want to have that in agency released one of our next components, because this will give both the developer and the enterprise deploying the application in production the way to understand how the agent communicate, how the data are passed between one agent and another, how the tool are called, and this opens to much deeper analysis.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":17,"time":"8:32","seconds":512,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. Absolutely agree. I think it's crucial that we make debugging and understanding agent interactions much easier. It's why we released our graph view so that you can see the basic trace and understand it in a different way much more visually, which I think is especially great in order to enable not just developers, but business users and other folks who are are building agents or seeing agent interactions.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":18,"time":"8:55","seconds":535,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It's also why we're adding other views like timeline view, which we recently released. So you can actually see on a timeline, as different agents are working together, how are they communicating? Where are they calling tools? How do they work together? And then messages. So you can see the full trace within how that agent will will experience it and how an individual will experience it at other end. And I think it's really important we have all these to use and more to come because","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":19,"time":"9:20","seconds":560,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"the interface for agents is so based around natural language right now, but it's rapidly expanding to include multiple different mediums. And I would expect we're gonna have a variety of ways that we need to interface with these agents and which they need to interface with each other. And so being able to understand that communication, make it more predictable, make it more reliable,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":20,"time":"9:42","seconds":582,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"is crucial. And it's why we've released our AI reliability features and are excited to bring a lot of to the agency collective as well. Totally. I think this is a key point if we really want to see this application in production. So these days we see a lot of single agent or some talk about multi agent. We want to go to the next level or really see business application","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":21,"time":"10:05","seconds":605,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"adopting these agents in a trustworthy way. And so for building that confidence, it's really important that the evaluation goes deep into explaining how this system works because they are much more complex than normal application. And this is something that we want to drive in agency and that also companies such as Galileo are driving. So there I would say that there are a few aspects that are really important. So first of all, the selection of good metrics","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":22,"time":"10:43","seconds":643,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"and not too many, because we don't want to confuse the users. We really need those metrics that are key to capture the dynamic of these multi agentic systems. I want to recommend the user which one to use and think this is one of the themes that we are also working on. We want that evaluation to be done in a cost effective way. So today it can be a lengthy task.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":23,"time":"11:11","seconds":671,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"It can involve a lot of models and dataset creation. We want to have that as a seamless process that is really integrated into the development and that builds this trust on the agentic system. Absolutely agreed.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":24,"time":"11:31","seconds":691,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"We need to start bringing the metrics for agents, the observability for agents to developers versus forcing them to always go somewhere else and, you know, pull that information into their platform of choice. It's why we're doing things like it may be live by the time this releases actually, using MCP to bring agentic metrics and visibility into the IDE. So you can simply prompt your way through using Galileo","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":25,"time":"11:58","seconds":718,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"by ingesting our docs, ingesting the agency docs, and any agency related agent can easily add observability with OpenTelemetry with Galileo. That's why we're really excited about the AI reliability features that we are are rolling out with as part of our AI reliability platform specifically built for agents. And I know that's something you're really passionate about is this idea of creating predictability","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":26,"time":"12:21","seconds":741,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"for agents because, obviously, the nondeterminism is the magic. Right? It is the opportunity. But we have to have structures within an operates. Have to have some predictability. We have to have some explainability and reliability. I'm an easy one of ability phrases here, but it matters, I swear. Tell me more about your perspective on how to create predictable agents that do what we need them to do and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":27,"time":"12:48","seconds":768,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"have enough trust to actually go into production. Yeah. Yeah. We all love the fact that this model seems kind of magically doing their job. But maybe because of my background, I think it's really important we get to explain because even the stochastic nature can be explained. And so what we are working on and in the collective, also at Cisco with Splunk, it's really to make","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":28,"time":"13:18","seconds":798,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"the agent or the agentic collaboration predictable. That means that we want to explore by testing all the possible state of solution or space of solutions that these agents will work in and try to characterize patterns, make sure the output is consistent where the agents are provided with similar input. It also goes into recreating, reconstructing the normal behavior","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":29,"time":"13:56","seconds":836,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"that for these systems is not so trivial. Doing that I think is going to be very important, for enterprise to have confidence about the output of the systems.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":30,"time":"14:12","seconds":852,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And so this is something that is really important in my in my view. Yes. Absolutely. And there's also the challenge of latency, which we were talking about a little bit before we started recording. Because we have this expectation of of real time, often LLMs will not fulfill all the needs of evaluation systems. Often, human feedback will not fulfill all the needs of evaluation systems.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":31,"time":"14:38","seconds":878,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Now there are places for those. LM as a judge is a, you know, at this point, kind of well known technique, continuous learning through human feedback. Galileo has it. Many other folks are are starting to bring in human feedback. I know Cisco's leveraging it, And and leveraging those SMEs while also creating your digitized SMEs with an element of judge can provide a lot of excellent observability and evaluation feedback to AI systems and agents in particular.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":32,"time":"15:05","seconds":905,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"However, if you need them operating in real time, you also need guardrailing. You also need lower latency metrics. Do you have any insights onto how you think that should be approached by teams?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":33,"time":"15:19","seconds":919,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"Sure, sure. I think you're touching upon very interesting aspects. So we I would say that we have been working on the low latency from an agent communication perspective. As I was mentioning before, we're working on this group communication where you can think that multiple agents with different skills will, when provided with a question will be able to answer and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":34,"time":"15:51","seconds":951,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"combine their output and that really calls for a low latency communication protocol because otherwise it's really unusable. So this is very important. Think in terms of evaluation of this system, we also want to monitor latency, but I would say that the step farther that I found really exciting is to be able to provide recommendation for improvement. And so doing what we can call an active evaluation. So not just observe and score","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":35,"time":"16:24","seconds":984,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"the existing, but really trying to quantify the margin for improvement and provide recommendation, whether it's to the developer, the composer of this application, or even the enterprise running in production to optimize, optimize for latency for sure, optimize for costs and costs, as you mentioned before, related to running this application and costs related to the evaluation. I think what they're doing is absolutely","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":36,"time":"16:55","seconds":1015,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"awesome and key if you want to have this three sixty degree evaluation, must be cheap and fast if you want to have it. And so yes, to me, the frontier which I found really exciting is that to go beyond just evaluating and really providing remediation and helping root cause analysis and fixing errors even in real time when the application is running. So I think this is where we should go next. Completely agreed. And obviously,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":37,"time":"17:28","seconds":1048,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"we've done a lot of research on that with our team here at Galileo as part of creating our Luna family of evaluation models. Folks who have checked those out may know that they enable lower latency evaluations. They enable real time guardrailing for things like EII, toxicity, prompt injection attacks, and more. And we have actually now released Luna specific","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":38,"time":"17:58","seconds":1078,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"metrics for agents as well. So tool selection quality, action advancement, is the agent actually taking actions to move forward, action completion, it could actually fulfill the task you want, tool airing. We now have a family of LUNA metrics that are fine tuned with these SLMs we've developed so that we can have significantly lower latency agentic evaluations and feedback as well as that guardrailing to enable that production challenge that you're talking about here. And we're really excited about that and excited about how that's also fueling our insights engine,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":39,"time":"18:29","seconds":1109,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"where we can say, hey, great. Like, here, based off of these, extremely low latency real time metrics, here are the insights that we have. Here are suggestions for changes you can make. And to me, that's the magic. I see this huge opportunity to keep leaning in there.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":40,"time":"18:43","seconds":1123,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"Yeah. Especially think about it if you're you're gonna be able to do it live. Yeah. If you're gonna do to be able to embed this evaluation with the systems and provide recommendation as it goes, that would really, I think, check all the boxes from giving transparency and control and even the margin for improving these systems. I really","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":41,"time":"19:06","seconds":1146,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"hope that that they're getting there. I I think we're I think we're there, which is really, really exciting. The the next step for me is gonna be, okay. How do we now enable rapid implementation of that? Do we do it, like in the ID through MCP that we talked about earlier, where you can say, okay, here's my, I I've like, I'm, I'm building this application. I'm experimenting.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":42,"time":"19:28","seconds":1168,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Oh gosh, like here's a problem. Great. Let's hit complete. We're good to go. Do we do it through integrations with agent providers and, folks who are building agents? Like, an example of this might be like n eight n, where you can look at our agent graph and say, oh, like, here's where tool layering is happening. Suggestion is to move this step later. Great. Just hit accept, it flows back and then and then your agent changes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":43,"time":"19:51","seconds":1191,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Now we're not quite there yet, but I think that's where things are going. And I'm really excited about that, what that future looks like, especially once we can solve these protocol challenges around actually having great communication. Because imagine these self improving agents that folks are working on. And I think there's so much opportunity for self improving evaluations, self improving agents that say, hey. Let me take the inputs out of these these evals,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":44,"time":"20:15","seconds":1215,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"these observations that are coming through these small language models, these Luna models that we have, and then apply them in real time to improve myself based off of whatever guardrails have been suffering. Which implies","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":45,"time":"20:25","seconds":1225,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"other AI. Yeah. And reinforcement learning. Yes. That that that's also great. Yeah. You were mentioning about the the the Luna models. I think what's also interesting there is that Galileo calls for custom metrics. It's really important that we do this evaluation in a way that is really targeted to what is the intent of the agentic system. So this is something that we also want to open source as example to the And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":46,"time":"20:54","seconds":1254,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"so one of the things that again is coming in agencies, this metrics computation engine, where a few example of important metrics related to the evaluation of the agentic communication, agentic framework, the task delegation, workflow efficiency","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":47,"time":"21:10","seconds":1270,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"will will will be there. I absolutely agree with you. And it's the same reason we've added automatic insights and metric suggestions within our platform as well. And we're really excited to work with agency to bring some of that to the collective because, I think it's so essential that if I come in and I have a customer support agent, like, yeah, I can suggest four or five metrics from the Galileo platform","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":48,"time":"21:33","seconds":1293,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"are already in there and likely will work. And probably a couple open source ones with agency that, yeah, you should probably have context adherence and tool selection quality. But maybe we have four custom metrics that we've developed or that we can suggest that we develop with you, that you do you can do it live with an LMS Judge or an SLM or by code. And I think that is where we can really start this data flywheel moving.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":49,"time":"21:59","seconds":1319,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"As we get customization around these different systems, I mean, enterprises have such complex internal systems that not everything is gonna run on open source. Not everything is gonna be simple. So how can we enable the base standards to work together and then customization based off of the direction that each system goes. Absolutely. What else are you thinking about when it comes to agents right now? What is top of mind for you when it comes to making sure they succeed? Beyond evaluation?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":50,"time":"22:26","seconds":1346,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"Well, I mean, we can dive deeper into evaluation I'm just so that's really thinking about bringing the evaluation in a different way, Observability and evaluation. So today we are going through the standard route of instrumenting and collecting data and computing upon, which is required. And as we said, there are a lot of things already there to do, a lot of challenges.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":51,"time":"22:50","seconds":1370,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"But I'm thinking whether it's possible, I mean, is just a thought these days to really embed these observability and evaluation as agents within the genetic that would be able to work in a localized manner while the application is running. I think there is a lot of AI that will help not just in terms of what we observe, but how we observe. So yeah, I think the future will","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":52,"time":"23:28","seconds":1408,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"bring a lot of new opportunities for this drafting also how Another we're","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":53,"time":"23:34","seconds":1414,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"doing","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":54,"time":"23:35","seconds":1415,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"thing that really passions me is the capability to do evaluation without a lot of ground truth data. I mean, you know this better than mine, Galileo, you're trying to remove this need for good ground truth data set because in many cases you","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":55,"time":"23:54","seconds":1434,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"just don't have them. Well, it's also why we have synthetic dataset. Yeah. So, I mean, I a, I agree. Like, we're not always gonna have ground truth to work off of. And it's part of why we've added synthetic dataset generation to our platform so you can generate your ground truth. Especially when you're creating these custom metrics, it may be like, oh, we want this idea.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":56,"time":"24:13","seconds":1453,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"But I think part of this too, it comes down to continued fine tuning of your metrics and of your ground truth. Because what you may initially establish may may change over time. You make an SME feedback. You can use auto tune metrics, Galileo, for example, to provide that human feedback and auto tune the metrics, go back to the SLM or the LLM and say, hey. Great. Like, adjust based off of this.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":57,"time":"24:34","seconds":1474,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"But I I think it's a really interesting challenge to your point where we increasingly have, I mean, like datasets built on datasets and AI built on AI datasets. And I'm I'm really optimistic about what we're doing with synthetic data sets, not just at Galileo, but all all over the world. Yeah. Also to to to reduce the need for human feedback. Yes. Because this is there, but it doesn't scale as small as we need Right. It's crucial to having certain points, but if you try to do it across the board,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":58,"time":"25:03","seconds":1503,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"not enough time, not enough humans. What else are you thinking about as far as observability evaluations when it comes to agency? Where do you see the next six, twelve months go? I think,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":59,"time":"25:13","seconds":1513,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"first of all, I think we should succeed in making this interoperable agentic schema an instrumentation standard and this is something that is happening in OpenTelemetry to me is the key to Because for sure agents will be developed with multiple frameworks and interconnected the entire Internet of Agents principle lies upon that. So this is something that I see happening because","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":60,"time":"25:45","seconds":1545,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"again, accelerated by the agency collective that we see a lot of partners and companies in general pushing for that. And the other thing that again, companies such as Carlyleo are promoting is really the capability to have this evaluation done in a compact, effective way. This will, I think, foster the development or more complex application because people would be less scared about the complexity of this system. So this is to me something that is hopefully coming in the next six months,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":61,"time":"26:27","seconds":1587,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"while of course after that, we'll see the evolution, I will try to adjust even observability and evaluation","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":62,"time":"26:35","seconds":1595,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"with the very rapid development of this agentic system that we are observing. Let's get specific for our audience. I know a lot of folks listening are familiar with Agent Connect protocol. A lot of folks listening are familiar with model context protocol. But some aren't. Some may only know one. And I think it's important to set the ground truth of this conversation.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":63,"time":"26:58","seconds":1618,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"What are the differences between the agent connect protocol and the model context protocol? And how can they work togetherwhen should they be used?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":64,"time":"27:07","seconds":1627,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"Yeah. First, let me say that with protocols, and this is true in general, beyond the genetic, you see the emergence and you can have multiple protocols trying to achieve the same thing before a few of them really become the reference. So I see this happening today and in agency we want to support them all. Now you mentioned specifically MCP and ACP. Well, they're trying to achieve two very different objectives here. So MCP is really aimed at","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":65,"time":"27:44","seconds":1664,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"agent to tool interaction, which is very important. And with that, especially when the tools are remote and not integrated within the agent. So this is a protocol that we want to support, we are already integrating and supporting an agency also in terms of observability. Now, again, this is to me related to agent to tool interaction, it's coming sooner and is very popular","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":66,"time":"28:19","seconds":1699,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"because it's much simpler for these agents to use tools and for tools to provide you a way like an API to be used by agents behind MCP servers. That's MCP, it's really becoming popular. And again, we want to support it. Agent to agent communication, this is trickier one. We have tried even there to start from existing protocols at the time, the agentic protocol from","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":67,"time":"28:52","seconds":1732,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"lung chain. Now we see the emergency of other protocol, A2A for instance, but there many others. I think that there we really need to progress and see what's really required. But to me what's really important is that we power that with a lower level transport layer that supports them all. It's a bit like what TCP has done in the internet protocol stack for a long time. We want to have that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":68,"time":"29:32","seconds":1772,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"good foundation. And this time, I would say, again, based on my past work, we want to make it secure by design, low latency and group based. Because when I think really beyond in agents, we're really beyond this agent to agent communication in most of the cases, especially when the communication is driven by natural language question,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":69,"time":"29:56","seconds":1796,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"multiple","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":70,"time":"29:59","seconds":1799,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"agents will collaborate. And this is also one of the frontiers of identity communication. We want these agents that today we are stitching into agentic graph to be able to autonomously collaborate. Yeah. And that really calls for a bit more than just one protocol or a point to point connectivity.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":71,"time":"30:22","seconds":1822,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It's a great point. And, Yavanna, I'd love to understand more about that vision of the future. As we move from a couple agents interacting to thousands, millions of agents, What are the biggest technical challenges that you're anticipating and how is agency seeking to solve them?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":72,"time":"30:40","seconds":1840,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"Well, you know, as Cisco, we always say this in three connectivity, and this is what we're just talking about, the transport layer protocols that we are pushing with Slim should be able to scale. That's why it's going to be a data centric protocol that by definition is not connecting points. So this is something that has proven to be a good fundamental principle for the design of protocols.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":73,"time":"31:14","seconds":1874,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"The second one is security. So there as well, there is a lot to come. We haven't touched upon that, but it is definitely a lot of work that starts with identity. It goes into being able to connect in a secure way, even in enterprise with zero trust, agentic concepts, agents. And three, we are always coming back to the observability one,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-73","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":74,"time":"31:43","seconds":1903,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"that we need to make it work at scale. We did not pay her to say this. I promise.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-74","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":75,"time":"31:48","seconds":1908,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"It's really something that that that is close to my heart these days because we are working and I think a lot of potential there. But as we said, also as a requirement. There we need to make this, the availability and evaluation, they are all part of the same dimension be scalable.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-75","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":76,"time":"32:09","seconds":1929,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"You mentioned security. Wanna I actually had that as my next question, so I'm glad you brought it up. One of the most compelling things happening around security is agent identification and frameworks around ensuring agent identity. Otherwise, hey, how good is a communication protocol if agents are lying to one another and stealing information? Why is identity such a critical challenge for autonomous agents? And how do Cisco and the agency collective plan to solve that problem? Yeah, it's good to mention. We just released an agent identity component in agency.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-76","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":77,"time":"32:45","seconds":1965,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"So all started for us, first of all, from defining a schema for identifying agents, we call it OSF, is one of the components of agency, we call it like that if you want to replicate what OCSF with open cyber security schema framework has done for security becoming this lingua franca for defining cybersecurity data. And so in this case, we want to really characterize,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-77","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":78,"time":"33:19","seconds":1999,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"we pushed a first version of OSF, a really welcoming contribution there about what defines an agent. Also because the definition of agent itself, as we were mentioning before, can be challenged. And so we want for these agents to be uniquely identified, to have a clear provenance, whether it's for the agent and the data, to have a clear way to spell out their skills,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-78","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":79,"time":"33:49","seconds":2029,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"so that can be discovered based on skills and that can be evaluated or you can have a reputational touch the skills. And beyond that, we want to have an identification of agents, of tasks, then there's a lot more work coming, but this is definitely one of the important","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-79","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":80,"time":"34:14","seconds":2054,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"dimensions for agency today. Absolutely. And we're excited also to release a new agent leaderboard. That's we have an open source one. You may have seen our first version. That is going to include a lot of focus around agent success with certain verticals and tasks because we we agree there there's a huge opportunity here to understand success, to define what we want out of predictable,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-80","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":81,"time":"34:37","seconds":2077,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"hopefully, agents, and there's a huge need to secure and observe that. I'm curious, what do you wanna see from Galileo as we build for the next few months? Like, what are the things that we would would or could or are building that would be exciting to you and and useful?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-81","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":82,"time":"34:55","seconds":2095,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"Well, you know that. I want for Galileo to push some of these awesome work you are doing in defining metrics, especially for multi agentic system and agentic context and communication intertwelve agency in an agency. I think this is very important. We can have a few sample medics and the metrics computation engine as one of the elements that we want to provide the developer to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-82","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":83,"time":"35:24","seconds":2124,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"start, help him through this journey of putting together a genetic application. So this is coming and I know we are working on that. Yeah, are really excited about Galileo bringing all these expertise in defining metrics and recommending metrics into agencies so that really together we can have a more predictable and reliable agentic system.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-83","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":84,"time":"35:54","seconds":2154,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"How can Galileo's Luna models unlock more opportunities for lower latency evaluations?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-84","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":85,"time":"36:02","seconds":2162,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"Well, I think evaluation should be constrained in budget because you don't want to have it too expensive and constrained in time. So what Galileo is doing with the small language model in Luna, it's amazing. This is a key step for having a deep evaluation, a thorough evaluation of this system. So kudos to that. Well, we're hopefully excited to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-85","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":86,"time":"36:29","seconds":2189,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"bring some of that to open source as well. So I think there's gonna be lot of fun coming here. Thank you so much, Giovanna, for the conversation and for bearing with me as we knock out a couple last things here. I think we're all set, honestly. Absolutely agreed. I think there's a major opportunity for us to collaborate with Cisco and others within the collective,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-86","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":87,"time":"36:48","seconds":2208,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Wama Index, Langchain, so many other folks who are there to create systems for AI agents that help them to stay as reliable as we we need, stay on task, and succeed. Because, really, in the end, we have a trust problem to solve, and we want to enable every enterprise, every business, every, hopefully, builder around the world to leverage AI agents in a way that helps make their lives easier.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-87","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":88,"time":"37:14","seconds":2234,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And as you've pointed out throughout this conversation, there are keys to that. There are there are basic layers we have to solve. And I think we're we're starting to get there, but there's so much opportunity to build upon that. You know, we talked a bit earlier about the the small language models Galileo's using, LUNA models, which we just released new ones on.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-88","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":89,"time":"37:31","seconds":2251,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I'm really excited to see, like, are there open source opportunities around that? Are there opportunities to extend that? How can we make things more real time so that guardrailing is more successful? And, you know, some of this I'm sure will stay within the paid platform. Some of it will will come to agency and and be fully open source, but, it's just such an exciting time. I there's really nowhere else I'd rather be than than part of this as we we build, I mean, I think the future of the Internet and the future of knowledge work, which","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-89","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":90,"time":"38:01","seconds":2281,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"I see your excitement about it too. Really agree. Let's go back to work.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-90","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":91,"time":"38:06","seconds":2286,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Giovanna, it's been such a pleasure. Thank you for joining us all the way from Paris. We're so glad we could snag you while you were here in the Bay Area. This has been such a fascinating deep dive into the future of agents, frankly, the current situation with agents, and the infrastructure that is going to power the next generation of AI systems. Thank you for sharing both the technical vision for Agency","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-91","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":92,"time":"38:29","seconds":2309,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and the practical lessons that you're learning from building these systems. Where can our listeners go to learn more about the Agency Collective and to see the work of the steering committee with Outshift, Galileo and LangChain.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-92","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":93,"time":"38:41","seconds":2321,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"Well, it was my pleasure. First of all, thanks a lot for this very interesting conversation. I think it really shows that that we have a path ahead of us and we want to get there very quickly. So for everyone who wants to know about our work in the collective, I would say go to agency.org and specifically on some aspects such as observability and evaluation, we're a working group. So I will encourage people to just go there and participate to the meetings","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-93","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":94,"time":"39:12","seconds":2352,"speaker":"Giovanna Carofiglio","text":"and take these journeys with us. Absolutely.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-94","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":95,"time":"39:15","seconds":2355,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And you can find links to all that in the show description, as well as at galileo.ai, if you wanna try any of the features we've talked about today, and very much check out the GitHub as well. Agency.org will have links to all that. There's a lot of opportunities to contribute, and we're so excited to continue to include developers from around the world, and and very excited about the the opportunities to keep building these protocols and collaborating with A2A, MCP, and everyone else. To our audience, if you're building agents or thinking about agent interoperability,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-95","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":96,"time":"39:44","seconds":2384,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"evaluations, observability, predictability, reliability, all these phrases, all the abilities. This is a community. We want you to join. And the Internet of Agents isn't this distant future. I know it kind of feels that way sometimes as we talk about the future, what it looks like. It's being built right now by teams like Cisco, by team folks like Giovanna. And the Open Source Collective","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-96","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":97,"time":"40:06","seconds":2406,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"needs you to help shape the future. So thank you so much for tuning into this special open source focused episode of Chain of Thought. Be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And if you know a developer, a builder, whether they're a data scientist, someone else, someone who can contribute and you think would be interested in The Collective, send them a link to this episode. Have them check it out. We'd love their thoughts, their feedback,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-97","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective","episode":31,"guid":"e819e134-3e07-466d-91b2-2c5a6bcb1a2f","episodeTitle":"Architecting Reliable Agentic AI | Cisco’s Giovanna Carofiglio on the AGNTCY Collective","publishedAt":"2025-07-09","segmentIndex":98,"time":"40:28","seconds":2428,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"their PRs if they wanna make a submission. And you can always find way more content like this, much more in-depth, everything from AMD's perspective on open source to so much more on the Galileo YouTube channel for more episodes and deep dives into the world of productionizing AI. This has been fantastic. Really, really appreciate you sitting down, and thanks for letting us steal your time. Nice meeting you. Nice meeting you as Thank you. Yeah. We'll definitely have to stay on time.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/31-architecting-reliable-agentic-ai-ciscos-giovanna-carofiglio-on-the-agntcy-collective/#t-98","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:06","seconds":6,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Welcome back to Chain of Thought, everyone. I am your host, Conor Bronsdon. And today, we are thrilled to have Bharat Vasan on the show. He is the founder and CEO at Intangible. Bharat, welcome to the show. Thanks, Conan. Excited to be here. Yeah. I am loving your background. Anyone who's not watching on YouTube right now is missing out. It's a sunny day there, and we've got a a very fun background for you. So, definitely, if you're listening on your podcasting app of choice, that's great. But, you know, you should really check out the Galileo YouTube where every episode of this comes out","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:37","seconds":37,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and where you can explore so much more about Bharat's journey from founder to VC, back to founder, again, intangible, or as he likes to refer to it, he is a recovering VC. And to kick things off, I wanna dive into what drove him back into founder mode. What was that specific spark or observation about the current AI landscape that convinced you that now was the time to build intangible","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":2,"time":"1:00","seconds":60,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"and dive back in? Well, first, thank you. Excited to be here. I've been listener of the pod for a long time, so this is special for me. What brought me back to being a founder here? I think the number one thing was it's a very exciting time to be alive in technology. And what I mean by that is, you know, we've lived through many platform shifts when it was packaged goods software, and then, you know, the Internet came along, and then there was SaaS, and there was containerization,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:31","seconds":91,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"and AI is honestly changing hardware and software, and so the kinds of things you can build if you're a builder type are going to be pretty unique, pretty special. And one of my beliefs is that the best way to do it is to actually do it, and that's kinda how you learn in these early messy phases where, you know, it's not exactly clear how it works. It's not really clear how it'll get fleshed out. And in a few years, all that will be, you know, clean and sanitized and, you know, it'll evolve on a more predictable path. But right now, it feels like we're living through the very early days of the Internet.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":4,"time":"2:11","seconds":131,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"And I was in college when, you know, I came to this country from India, and I'd only heard of America, and I don't my exposure was mostly pop culture. So it was like an like a a child in India that was a, you know, a phenomenon of American pop culture. And the first time I came here, I remember just having access to the Internet and Telnet and FTP and stuff that people don't use anymore. And even though it was super niche,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":5,"time":"2:36","seconds":156,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"right, like, your, like, your hunger to be like, oh my god. This could be my conduit to the whole world It was just so exciting. And AI AI has that same vibe, you know, whether it's giving billions of people access to collective knowledge throughout the world or, in my space at least, you know, you're trying to create films, movies, games, thing people just do to entertain each other.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":6,"time":"3:01","seconds":181,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"It feels like another desktop publishing revolution is what my cofounder would call it, where it expands the human pool of creativity because now everyone can unleash that, and and that is pretty cool.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":7,"time":"3:13","seconds":193,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. I think we see a lot of skeptics push back and say, oh, so much of what's being generated is slop. And I think that ignores how much of any person's creative process is fine tuning and figuring out what the right things to build are, and we've made it so much easier to just build a quick MVP and get it out there. Now does that mean we have a lot of things coming out that aren't fully finished products? Sure.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":8,"time":"3:39","seconds":219,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"But as we've seen in these last twenty years of the Internet era, we have this idea of building in public, and we are very much enabling everyone in the world potentially to create AI generated content and code and to bring their ideas into reality or at least into digital reality so far. What do you see as the evolving role of human creativity and human generated content as this","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":9,"time":"4:07","seconds":247,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"inference revolution is occurring?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":10,"time":"4:09","seconds":249,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"I see it as making it more accessible. Right? I I always think anytime so as far as creative tools go, as long as there have been tools, every time you know, I think the benefit of technology is it makes things easier, and it makes it more accessible. The Internet made knowledge more accessible. Google made, you know, the Internet more searchable. So every wave of technology that comes builds on top of something that came before and expands everyone's access to that pool of knowledge.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":11,"time":"4:38","seconds":278,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"And when I think about human created content, you know, I I think about the fact that human beings fundamentally do it because it's fun. Right? And it's a play is a really important part of our species, and so this notion that human beings are gonna get completely displaced because production of the content gets easier, in my mind, is misreading the situation.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":12,"time":"4:59","seconds":299,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"And I think one reason people misread that is because it takes so much effort to make a game or a movie at this point in time. You know, it's hundreds of people, many years, sometimes hundreds of millions of dollars. GTA might cost as much as a billion dollars. You know, these are very, very large numbers, and they just feel so inaccessible. Like, you have to be a Christopher Nolan or a David Cameron or sorry, a James Cameron or, you know, an EA to make these big things.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":13,"time":"5:28","seconds":328,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"And every so many years, that clock gets reset in technology. And I think what's interesting right now is the film and game spaces are a little bit beaten down. You know, the agency space a little bit as well only because production sucks up so much of the time. There's very little time to do the fun part. What's fun about this piece of content? You know? It can be workshop. It can be build different iteration.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":14,"time":"5:52","seconds":352,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"It's kinda like, no. We need to green light an idea. It's rush, rush, rush production. Movie didn't work. Oh my god. Panic. Go back. Try it again with something else. And my hope my hope with AI is it rebalances that equation so you get more time to let the idea bake because creativity is is not this linear process. It's a lot of exploration, just kinda like, you know, improv comedy.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":15,"time":"6:14","seconds":374,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"And the AI allows people to explore those paths more rapidly. And so, hopefully, what we get out of this is better content. More ideation, more experimentation. More ideation, more experimentation, more talent being discovered. Where's the next field bird gonna come from? You know, because these are the tools that become accessible to them. And I would say that's happened throughout. You know, when the, you know, the Handycam came out and you could have a camera in the palm of your hand, that was a big deal. When phones had a camera come in you know, going to smartphones had a camera come in, that changed the game.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":16,"time":"6:47","seconds":407,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"And I think we're just seeing that next wave, you know, that next evolution of, like, if you can if you've got good taste and you've got concepts and you're willing to work at your craft, you can become a mister beast too. Right? And many years ago, that would have been hard to do. You have to have a network deal. You have to have producers. You have an have agency involved.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":17,"time":"7:07","seconds":427,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"You wouldn't be a guy in North Carolina who just works at this craft so hard, and then he has a distribution platform like YouTube that gets so big that that becomes the thing that he broadcasts on. And I think the this wave of AI is gonna invent new things like that that change the space that you can't even anticipate right now. So if the marginal cost of","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":18,"time":"7:27","seconds":447,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"digital creation, whether that's writing code or creating content, is trending towards zero, as I know you and others believe it's going to in this new era, what will the second order impacts be for our audience and for everyone who's seeking to build companies or create","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":19,"time":"7:45","seconds":465,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"today? I think it's gonna be about taste and distribution. Like, do you have the taste to create content for a particular type of audience, and can you find distribution? So I do believe marginal cost of writing code is gonna go to zero, and the marginal cost of creating content is gonna go to zero as well. So in a world where you can create as much content, you know, as","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":20,"time":"8:06","seconds":486,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"people can consume, the question becomes how do people even differentiate between that? How do they even discover your content? And, you know, what you've seen with, you know, vibe coding to some degree on Twitter, some other places is, you know, people just putting their idea out there on a distribution platform. Right? And telling their story, in public, and eventually it grows a user base that goes, oh, that's really, really cool. I wanna support this person. Mister Beast is a great example of that phenomenon.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":21,"time":"8:34","seconds":514,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"And I think this AI revolution is gonna bring other creators to the fore, and whether it's YouTube or some new new distribution thing that comes in, you know, out there, I think taste and distribution are really gonna drive adoption. And I think one thing that that people building companies and, you know, this is my advice to founders out there, take it for what it's worth, is think carefully about what you wanna represent in a world that is flat.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":22,"time":"9:01","seconds":541,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"You know, where distribution, you know, everyone has it, but your goal is to be crisp enough, compelling enough to communicate to an audience that goes, oh, that's, you know, that's my tribe. That's my that's my people. Whether you're building a podcast or a company yeah. No. Salesforce is still Salesforce. What do they do? They're all about sales. Right? And they'll include AI. They'll include whatever the new flavor of technology is coming, but what do you use Salesforce for? It's sales.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":23,"time":"9:29","seconds":569,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"And, surely, there'll be better tools that come out, but Salesforce brand is about one thing, and Apple's brand used to be about one thing. And I think as you think about building these software companies, the brand is the thing that that translates the most to people, and figuring out how to make it relatable to people or find it compelling to people is actually really hard. And it's a language problem. It's a zeitgeist problem. It's a what's the product problem.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":24,"time":"9:55","seconds":595,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"And every founder needs to be balancing those three things, whereas I think most, you know, founders feel like, you know, if you just make a product and put it out there, it'll somehow work. But what you actually see is sometimes that works, but often startups are about bending the world to this thing that you wanna come alive, and the world doesn't owe you followership.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":25,"time":"10:17","seconds":617,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"And so you've gotta generate that followership by talking about it and talking about it crisply and why it matters. And that generates the energy that people go, you know what? Sure. I'll give it a try. Oh, wow. This really is cool. Oh, you know, I didn't like it last week, but they shipped this, and now it's really fun. And I gave them some feedback. They did something about it. All of those things play into kinda how the company is perceived, and that's when you go from building a product to building a company as a founder. Yeah. I've thought about this idea for a long time as an individual in my career of trying","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":26,"time":"10:51","seconds":651,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"to treat my career and how I approach it as if I were a company of one. And, okay, like, who do I need to sell to? How do I market? What kind of product am I building with my own personal differentiation? And it kind of dovetails nicely with this idea of, you know, what's your personal brand? Right? That's something we've heard from every LinkedIn creator for a long time.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":27,"time":"11:14","seconds":674,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And you've suggested, and I think very accurately, that software companies, because of the reduced cost of creation of software and content, are essentially becoming brands and taste makers where we need to have great distribution, we need to have great differentiation, and you need to have taste to establish this and and strategy. So what does it mean to be a brand,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":28,"time":"11:39","seconds":699,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"whether as an individual content creator or as a company in this new era? Well, it depends on what part of the stack you're in. You know? I think, you know, NVIDIA's brand is about we have the best AI chips, and our promise is we'll have the most innovative stuff. Things that, you know, Intel has left by the wayside and let them claim, but you have a few new chip companies like Grok and others that are coming up. In this new AI era, I think about it as they're chipmakers. Right? They're putting their the foundries. They're putting them you know, they're making the things that basically are the the the metal that power this revolution.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":29,"time":"12:14","seconds":734,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"Then there are the infrastructure providers providers. Right? The a dub the AWSs, the Google clouds of the world that are basically the layer on top of that on top of which you can actually build. Then there's model companies, right, the OpenAI's of the world, and then there are application companies. I think the interesting thing if you say like this is a, you know, if you're building an application company, I think brands matter. I think brand matters all the way up and down the stack, but I think it especially matters at the application layer.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":30,"time":"12:42","seconds":762,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"And I think the more you get to building silicon, right, like you've got foundries, there's much more of a moat, there's a lot more forgiveness. I'm not saying you should take it lightly, but I'm saying there's a little bit more of a moat. Whereas in the application space, there's no loyalty. Right? You're building in public. Your product's no good. People can just easily turn off a few product. And so,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":31,"time":"13:04","seconds":784,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"you know, asking your audience, cultivating your community to give you a little bit of the benefit of the doubt as you continue to build this very ambitious thing that serves them, and them believing that you will actually do that and you actually showing that they're gonna do that ends up becoming the relationship between you and an audience, and that compounds over time. And that's kinda how I think about it for my company. Right? We're not building this product for ourselves.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":32,"time":"13:30","seconds":810,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"We love using the product, but we're not the audience. If it doesn't work for users, you've gotta spend every week, every hour sitting and looking at it and going, why don't they use it? What makes sense? It's not their job to tell me what's wrong with my positioning or why the product doesn't work for them. I've gotta go through and figure out all of that stuff. I think one nice thing about","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":33,"time":"13:51","seconds":831,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"this new era we're building in company is AI can help with all that stuff internally, and then you can start to refine what you wanna mean within this space. I also think fundamentally, fast can build more ambitious companies in this day and age. Definitely agree. Coming out of VC and moving to becoming a founder, like, you know, I think one thing becoming a a venture capitalist gives you a lens for is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":34,"time":"14:15","seconds":855,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"how big a company needs to be to generate returns for a fund. And, you know, man, you know, when my first startup, you know, I had an exit. Again, that was life changing kind of event for me. You know, a 100,000,000 was I was like, it was a lot you know, it was a big exit. It was a lot of money. And now most venture investors are looking at it saying, hey. Listen. Valuations have gone up, but we hope in the AI space,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":35,"time":"14:42","seconds":882,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"there's, you know, a $10,000,000,000 exit. And, yes, maybe I'm paying a little bit more, but every company that's taking VC money, I think their VCs are in hoping you're like a fund returner, right, which is, you know, your company sells whatever percentage they own, 20%. Yeah. It returns all the fund. They're hoping for something that is gonna do, you know, five x, 10 x the fund size that they have.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":36,"time":"15:06","seconds":906,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"And I just felt like if you're gonna build a company and you're gonna take venture capital, let's focus on something that is that big. And I can't think of a a bigger opportunity than catering to human creativity or building new productivity just given the sort of functionality, the kind of, you know, productivity gain that AI is gonna unleash in all of us.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":37,"time":"15:30","seconds":930,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I wanna talk more about this idea of unleashing creativity and kind of dive into the details of what does this mean for incumbents who have established distribution versus startups who have taste and vision. But you've brought up a really good point that we should dig into first, which is, you know, having been on both sides of the table as a founder and a VC,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":38,"time":"15:52","seconds":952,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"what's your current assessment of the venture capital landscape for AI startups? It sounds like what you're hearing is VCs are seeking those outsized returns and are willing to pay that premium because they believe in this idea of, hey. You can build a bigger company faster","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":39,"time":"16:08","seconds":968,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"and and maybe more broadly, based off of the tooling that's being established with AI. Well, I think the VC business is really interesting right now. I think, you know, the Zurp era, the free capital spawned a lot of allocation into the space. I think the lack of exits has caused a lot of people who did pull money into this space to pull back a little bit. I also think it's a craft business, it doesn't scale as well as people thought. And so if you're going to be in the venture business,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":40,"time":"16:38","seconds":998,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"you're either gonna be a really big fund, right, and you're gonna be able to index many of the opportunities in the market. So, you know, you're gonna see most of the market, you're gonna place a lot of bets, some of them will work out, you you accept slightly lower returns in exchange for not missing out on the five or 10 companies that are market making in any given year.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":41,"time":"17:02","seconds":1022,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"On the other side of it, you've got the craft business, you know, the way venture capital used to be, and that business is a sort of a lone wolf business, you know, where you have to be a really good picker, you have to have some advantage network, some advantage source of deal flow, and you have some thesis whether it's about the founding team or the future, and you tend to be quite a lot. Right? And you can actually win those deals.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":42,"time":"17:30","seconds":1050,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"And that business has changed a lot as well just because the number of funds out there. It's brutally competitive. It's still pretty hard, I would say, to raise unless you're an AI. And I think in AI, one reason every you know, there's so much interest is because people don't feel like this is a trend for a few years. You know, it's not like the VR space or anything where everyone piles into, but, like, you know, everyone's not gonna walk around wearing VR devices.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":43,"time":"17:55","seconds":1075,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"But AI is one of those few technologies, but because it's not just hard software, it's human eyed robots helping you at home using some of the same algorithms that, you know, full self driving in Tesla was able to do. And so the implications for that kind of technology and what it could do for everything from human longevity to chores to population aging, like really big structural things that help the economy grow","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":44,"time":"18:19","seconds":1099,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"are just truly profound. And so if you're a VC, you're thinking, listen. I'm gonna invest in the company. I really like the founding team. I really like this idea. I think there's gonna be a great business over here, but, man, I'm just getting less ownership or, you know, I'm like, I I don't have as much of it as I'd like. And you've gotta weigh that against just not having any of it, right, or missing out one of those deals. And that's sort of the tortured space that, you know, investors live in right now, which is, am I paying too much for this deal and owning too little of it versus am I missing out completely? Am I investing in the wrong thing? So I know a lot of people think VC is a cushy job, and, you know, maybe it was when every company was going public and it was easy to make money in SaaS, but all of those safe harbors within VC","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":45,"time":"19:04","seconds":1144,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"have really started to disappear over the last three years. And with the end of free money, you know, from the Fed, I think it's really, really, you know, returned that business to what it should have been, which is, you know, very specific focus on a very specific strategy that that investor is executing in the market. It's still easier than being an, you know, an actual operator, I will say, as a founder,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":46,"time":"19:28","seconds":1168,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"But it's not an easy business. It just takes a really long time to find out if you're wrong. That's the one thing about the VC business that it's just different from founders. You know? It's very hard to to hide the fact that you haven't built a great product and, you know, your users are trading off or whatever it is. And I think investing is different because you do get these ten year funds, and and you're investing them over three years, and it takes anywhere between seven and fifteen years to see any returns.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":47,"time":"19:55","seconds":1195,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"So imagine you and I have jobs where it's like, you know, it's seven years before anyone figures out it for any good. And we're farther from the bare metal, so we're not getting the immediate customer feedback.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":48,"time":"20:05","seconds":1205,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Exactly. What about on the founder side? What actionable advice would you give to other founders who are also navigating the fundraising process with this new environment that's been established over the last couple of years and specifically the AI boom environment?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":49,"time":"20:22","seconds":1222,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"Depends on what your business is and why you got into it in the first place. I would first and foremost say this is my third venture backed startup. You know, my first two were acquired. So, you know, I started this company because I had a space I really liked, right, which is the media and entertainment space. I have a cofounder that I deeply respect and really like being in business with, going to work every day. We have a team that's really, really great. Then I have investors in my cap table who are great and are not drama.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":50,"time":"20:54","seconds":1254,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"Right? And so for me, a lot of those pieces came to fit. And everything else about it, you still gotta do the work. You know? As as YC says, like, you've gotta make, you know, something that people love, and that is all about digging trenches. And if you don't like digging trenches, then I suggest you don't become a founder in this market or any other market because it's not this high concept that gives it to you. I think some some founders certainly end up becoming better storytellers","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":51,"time":"21:21","seconds":1281,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"than other founders, but it doesn't take away the pain of like, okay. You know, we're trying this out. Nobody responded to my product. What part of it doesn't work? It's a very, very creative enterprise. Like, what should we try differently? And the speed at which you uncover and turn over those cards is really, really important. So I don't know that my advice to founders in the AI space","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":52,"time":"21:43","seconds":1303,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"it's certainly easier if you have an AI startup, by the way. I I will say that. But, you know, e even if you didn't, I would say the speed at which you can ship clarifies for you whether you have a business or not, and it clarifies for the world and other investors whether you have a business or not. And so my religion at every startup has always been ship as quickly as you can. It's okay if it doesn't work because if it doesn't work, you learn something. And if it does work, you learn something.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":53,"time":"22:10","seconds":1330,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"But not shipping, you get to live in your little bubble and vision of what it's gonna be five years from now, ten years from now. And it's really easy as a founder to fool yourself because your team doesn't wanna hear the bad news. You don't wanna hear the bad news. You have this huge bias around it's going to work. Right? And I think the you know, as Andy Grove said, like, only the paranoid survives. So maybe that's not the right philosophy for every founder, but it's it's been helpful to me. Like, you know, the moment you're like, oh, that's it. It's really exciting. Oh, that's it. That's who we need. These people love our product. We found our little tribe. How do I find more people in that community?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":54,"time":"22:48","seconds":1368,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"How do I build more stuff for them is just such an exciting moment. And that clarifies, by the way, everything about your culture, who you hire, how you go to market, what features you build. You know, everything becomes so much easier when you get that moment. But most founders gets between, you know, the idea and that product market fit phase. I think I read a stat something like only 15%","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":55,"time":"23:13","seconds":1393,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"of companies are getting to series a. Maybe it's 30%, but it's a pretty it's a pretty low number. There are lots of seed stage startups getting funded, but fewer of them are making it to the series a. And I think that's a reflection of, you know, the AI boom. People are willing to write small checks into a large number of companies, but then it's not really clear. So I I always think one round ahead to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":56,"time":"23:37","seconds":1417,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"where does my company need to be in order to receive that funding or be profitable? Basically, I gotta be default alive.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":57,"time":"23:46","seconds":1426,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. I I think I've definitely heard that phrase default alive from from other great founders, and I think it's also interesting to look at the impacts that AI is having on the relationship between incumbents and startups, where it's so much easier to get started with a startup now, where it's like, yeah, I can vibe code an app in an afternoon and have a demo, and I can maybe go out and start pitching.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":58,"time":"24:08","seconds":1448,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"But this also means that major incumbents who have established distribution, who have established communities, can much more rapidly adapt in certain areas. How do you see the current move of, hey. It's easier to code. It's easier to write. It's easier to create, or at least at the basic levels, even if getting from, you know, 80 to a 100% may still be very hard,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":59,"time":"24:31","seconds":1471,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"impacting both the incumbents who threaten startups and the startups who are attempting to carve out new niches?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":60,"time":"24:39","seconds":1479,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"That's a great question. I I it's probably easier than ever before to start a company, and any good idea is gonna get copied. Yes. And I think the difference between the companies that sort of get through this uncanny valley of like, you know, we have a good idea to we have a company with customers that's a real business that's, you know, generating profit or at least is fundable by the world.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":61,"time":"25:05","seconds":1505,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"I think the big difference is they discover something that is uniquely theirs. Like, mister Beast discovered, like, you know, there was this whole other way to produce content, relate to an audience, and build it out. It's not like there weren't YouTubers before that, but he had a vision that was just bigger than everybody else. And he had the ability and the skills, and he put in the time and the effort to build it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":62,"time":"25:28","seconds":1528,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"And so I do think AI is a vertical technology. It's just like the Internet being, you know, incorporated into all software. That's gonna happen with all of the incumbents, and they will have distribution. But incumbents are have a bunch of disadvantages. And, again, I worked at a big company, then went to start my own company, so I have some lens of this. One, they're slow.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":63,"time":"25:51","seconds":1551,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"Speed is the advantage of every startup. You have nothing that you're so attached to in the world, whereas if you ever worked at a big company, you know, the product that you have, the p and l you have, the public reporting, the review cycles, you know, the HR cycles you've got to go to replace talent or recruit any talent. Like everything about a big company is slow. So in other words, it's it's very big and it can crush you, but it's very, very slow moving. So one advantage a startup has is speed.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":64,"time":"26:21","seconds":1581,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"I think the second advantage a startup had is just creativity. Right? There are things that you can capture for a new generation of users that the last generation of companies wasn't really focused on. But for exam and and can be in super boring spaces too or spaces that you know, because those users really care about it. You know, as an example, there's a tool many of us use in startup land for","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":65,"time":"26:44","seconds":1604,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"our bug tracking feature request, like just how development work gets done. It's called linear. Right? And linear does pretty much the same thing that, you know, Jira did. And before Jira, there were other tools that did it. Shortcuts and other ones doing it now. Yeah. Yeah. And so you get fresher takes in the world, and they build something that's so insanely great. You're just like, you know, if I'm gonna start something today, that's what I'm gonna be on. Right? I'm not going back to the old way. So there's always a new generation of people. You know, Canva and fig Figma were the same way. Right? Like, Illustrator existed before. Photoshop existed before.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":66,"time":"27:20","seconds":1640,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"But when Melanie Perkins, you know, the founder of Canva, came to the Valley, she met with every VC, and they told her, like, this is probably not a big market. Market. You know, Canva is orders a bigger a magnitude bigger than Sigma, which is based right here in San Francisco. And it's really because she had an insight that the rest of the market simply overlooked,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":67,"time":"27:41","seconds":1661,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"and you would be surprised at the number of times that happens both in startup land and with big company. So the second advantage is some key insight you have that the world, for whatever reason, is like, yeah. That's really not a thing. Like Airbnb. Yeah. Sleeping in strangers' beds at home, not a thing. Getting into strangers' cars, like, you know, that's not really a thing. And so the market systematically","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":68,"time":"28:01","seconds":1681,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"underestimates these things until it worked, and then everyone piles into it, but it's a little too late. So the second thing is I would say insight. And the third thing I would say with really big companies is, I don't know the best way to say it is sometimes, you know, it's like it's you've you've been a Lannister for so long, you forget how to fight or something.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":69,"time":"28:25","seconds":1705,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"Yeah. Right? The walls are really high. Everyone's really rich. Like, you know, life is really comfortable. You got people waiting on you. You're manning a post on the wall. Yeah. Yeah. You're not talking about the White Walkers in the wall, and it's really, really cold, and you're trying to find food. And that's kinda what founders have. They have that, you know, that that hunger, that, you know, that little dog in them, which is like, I gotta figure out how to make this thing work","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":70,"time":"28:47","seconds":1727,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"every single day. You know, if I as as a founder, if me and Charles don't get out of bed and we're moving things forward, I'm not saying our our team doesn't do that. Our whole team is like that. We're you know, like an entirely but the culture is very different from you know, when I worked at a big company, if I got up and I didn't do anything, I took a week off, two weeks off, a month off.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":71,"time":"29:07","seconds":1747,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"It wouldn't be out of because, you know, the business has revenue. It's profitable. Like, you're not you as a person are not gonna break a business. Right? And I think startups are, like, a little bit like pirates. They're like, they got into this leaky boat with a bunch of fires burning on board, and, like, you're off looking for treasure. And, like, you know, most likely you won't find it, but eventually you hope to upgrade to something a little bit bigger and then bigger and then hope someday you end up like the US Navy, right, with the sailors standing on the deck and it's aircraft carrier. But in the beginning, it's just a boat with usually like you know one to three people as founders","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":72,"time":"29:41","seconds":1781,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"just rowing away and then be like well you know there's gonna be treasure over there, let's go check it out, or we have this vision and literally nobody should follow a bunch of pirates, but it's also where all the good stuff comes from. Something new comes into the world.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":73,"time":"29:55","seconds":1795,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. And I think another aspect of this idea around insights too is that even if you have the insight, if you don't execute on it, if you don't Yeah. Create a differentiation, if you don't establish taste around it as you brought up earlier, and you aren't relentless about it, it's so easy to fail. As you mentioned, there are so many competitors that will clone you today. And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-73","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":74,"time":"30:20","seconds":1820,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"if you rest on your laurels, it's very easy to fall back there. So while it's both easier to start a startup, I also think it's becoming hyper competitive. And every startup has that hits any sort of success has multiple clones. And so any, you know, taking your foot off the gas too much as as some folks may have learned to do at larger companies will, you know, leave you open to these pirates to come rate you. And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-74","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":75,"time":"30:47","seconds":1847,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"you've been talking, I think, throughout this interview so far around this idea of approaching the new paradigm of AI building, and building for this new AI era. And I know that you've set some rules as well for brand marketing and how to approach it, particularly for software companies in this new area era when a startup trying to cut through the noise may theoretically have someone copycatting its features very next week at unprecedented speed.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-75","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":76,"time":"31:19","seconds":1879,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"How do you act differently in this extremely agile, fast paced, AI enabled era?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-76","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":77,"time":"31:26","seconds":1886,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"Gosh. That's a good question, man. I think the first thing is there's multiple paths to victory. Right? Like the people who are the loudest on Twitter aren't the ones crushing it. There's somewhere, you know for every one of those, there's probably 20 founders who found some niche that they can tackle, they're building a large business, you'll hear about them like many years down the line,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-77","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":78,"time":"31:50","seconds":1910,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"because right now like they're not the noisy ones on Twitter. So I think the first thing is just doing the work, right, at the brand level, at the relating to a user level, figuring out if it's actually working and just really being customer obsessed is really, actually really hard. Because as a founder, you have VCs, you have conferences, you have all the stuff that sort of distracts you. It's designed to distract you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-78","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":79,"time":"32:17","seconds":1937,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"And one big piece of advice I have, it's not brand. Your brand is gonna be built if your startup is successful. And I think too many people get into it because they can get to the NFL. And they don't realize getting to the NFL is different level of competition. Every round you raise isn't more glory. It's more pressure to Right. Perform at an even higher level. And and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-79","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":80,"time":"32:40","seconds":1960,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"investor dollars are not some sanguine type of thing. They're expecting a return out of them. And so this is a long winded answer. Right? But but your question was, how do people go about building a brand? My advice to founders would be, one, do the work and be relentless about it. Just customer obsessed. Be creative about it. It's not just about the grind. It's like, you know, how do I communicate differently? Even if it's the same customer, how do I do this differently? What makes it relatable?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-80","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":81,"time":"33:09","seconds":1989,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"But nothing solves for hours spent with customers as opposed to conferences, VC parties, whatever. I think the second thing is if you can get good at language and AI is leveling that a little bit, figure out what's the best way in which you can communicate your vision. It is very, hard for startups to cut through the noise when the founder has a great idea, but they don't have a cofounder","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-81","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":82,"time":"33:32","seconds":2012,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"who, you know, has that gift of language to translate that for the world. And, you know, this is why I like two founder systems, you know, because there's at least two of you and you have a way to bounce ideas off of you. So I think language, figuring out what format you communicate the best, how do you best put the message out there. Because the thing you can change about it is yourself.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-82","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":83,"time":"33:54","seconds":2034,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"Right? Like, you're the limiting factor. You are who you are. You do the things you do well. And so figuring out how what modes you communicate well, I think, is the second piece of advice. And the third thing is I would say take some risks. I think, you know, people it's like a frog boiling type of thing. You come out of a big company or, you know, I believe you've had a failed startup. Like, you don't know what that age is like where you're like, never again.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-83","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":84,"time":"34:17","seconds":2057,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"And so you just start taking risks that don't feel, you know, like, oh, what's gonna happen to my brand? Like, nothing's gonna happen to your brand. Nobody like, nobody knows you exist. Like, nobody knows that my company exists. It's a really big world. And so take the advantage of this time to take some creative risks and see if that cuts through the noise. Those are probably the three things, and I think founders tend to be very conservative about those. They either don't put in the word","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-84","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":85,"time":"34:42","seconds":2082,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"or they end up being too conservative on the message, and then it doesn't cut through a noise where it's a pretty noisy world. And this isn't new, by the way. You know? Jobs said this at Apple. It's a noisy world, and actually the hardest thing to do is simplify and make your company about one thing. Focus, clarity. Focus, clarity, and it takes a lot of effort to polish a company down to, like, one thing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-85","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":86,"time":"35:06","seconds":2106,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"Because when you start, you have, like, a million ideas, and then you see your competitors, and you're like, oh, maybe you we should be doing that. Oh, the VCs want this, and I need to raise my next round. Maybe our story should have some of this. And what that does is it confuses the brand around you know, are you this, are you that, and there's not enough fidelity around it. So","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-86","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":87,"time":"35:24","seconds":2124,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"that's probably my number one thing, believe in what you're trying to do over the long run and focus on that one thing and have the data from users kinda be your north star as opposed to all of the noise in startup land. Always make your customers' beer taste better. Right.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-87","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":88,"time":"35:41","seconds":2141,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I know that this layers of distractions that can occur, these can really take builders off track, whether that's, as you pointed out, the narrative that's being pushed to raise that next round or conferences, something else, it can leave startups in a position where maybe they get commoditized, where they're not actually out innovating their competitors,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-88","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":89,"time":"36:10","seconds":2170,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And everyone seems to be building similar rappers, similar agents in some of these areas. How do you think founders today should be avoiding","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-89","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":90,"time":"36:20","seconds":2180,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"this trap and building something that's truly defensible, as you put it earlier? I think shipping clarifies. The number one thing I found helpful to me is if you have a thesis, you ship it, and then you get to see if it works. Or I should say differently, you can see what parts of it worked, what parts of it didn't work. Right? And I think people imagine this is one big event. You do your open beta or you close beta, and then this huge thing happens.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-90","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":91,"time":"36:47","seconds":2207,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"I think with startups, it's more like you have hundreds of these things that, you know, happen every you know, over time, and then you get very very good in your judgment about oh this is the thing, you've built a lot of conviction. When the gap between those ship periods is pretty long, you just have too little data, you live in your own head, know everyone's got a roadmap, everyone's got this future they want to build, But I think, you know, shipping, I would say, clarifies","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-91","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":92,"time":"37:12","seconds":2232,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"because it tells you exactly where you stand. And then you're and if you know where you stand, you can do something about it. I've always said startups are not a test of intelligence, by the way. If startups were a test of intelligence, this all the smartest people would be doing startups. Right? Like, no startups would ever be founded by anyone except the smartest people. But what you find","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-92","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":93,"time":"37:34","seconds":2254,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"to start a business, to have it be successful, it's a test of resilience and creativity and persistence and all of the stuff that you know, and it turns out like 90% of people whether you play a sport or you do start up, they just don't have what it takes to get up every single day and, you know, and grind away. Right? With no reward. You're working on your craft,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-93","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":94,"time":"37:57","seconds":2277,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"and the work itself has to be reward enough. And I just don't think this isn't like a criticism of matters. It's like like most human beings don't have that. What person would wanna if you could have a great job that pays you really well at a tech company or any other company and you could have vacations and you got a family and kids, you know, why would you wanna work Memorial Day and, like, Sunday and Saturday and schedule meetings and have this just be normal? And everyone's looking at you like, why are you guys doing this? You don't","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-94","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":95,"time":"38:25","seconds":2305,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"get paid that much. Like, you don't even know if it's gonna work. And so it's really not a test of intelligence. If if we were smart, we would just not do it. But you've gotta want something so badly that, like, you know, the best people to build it is you, and you wanna, you know, recruit other people to your cause. So I I always think about it as, like, it's a little bit of a cult, like, a little bit of a a mission, a little bit of religion you're creating.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-95","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":96,"time":"38:51","seconds":2331,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"We're like, this is the thing we're gonna do, guys. And when we do, it's gonna be awesome. And by by the way, that pirate analogy still holds. Right? There's always, like you know, there's always some Jack Sparrow who's like, god. It's gonna be amazing. What's gonna get there? There's gonna be treasure. Right? And just imagine how awesome it's gonna be, but that works, you know, with getting people","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-96","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":97,"time":"39:10","seconds":2350,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"to you know, they're I think Steve Jobs said, when you ask for help around something compelling in the world, you will find the help. People will come out of the woodwork to support your particular thing. You just don't know where it is. But you've gotta keep at it every single day until that message gets through. And so, you know, that's my whole thing. I don't think there's, like, one answer for how a startup becomes successful or one type of founder.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-97","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":98,"time":"39:37","seconds":2377,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"I don't think there's any point worrying about competition. I heard Paul Graham say, like, you know, the thing that startups enjoy is the same thing airplanes in the sky enjoy, which is it turns out there's a lot of air separating all these airplanes. There's plenty of room to support many different types of companies. And sitting in your Twitter feed or your LinkedIn feed and be like, oh my god. This thing shipped yesterday. It's gonna destroy us.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-98","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":99,"time":"40:00","seconds":2400,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"It's a moment of panic, but it mean it's a blip in the grand scheme of things. You don't know how they're really doing. You don't know how hard they're working. You you don't know what's wrong with their company. So I think shipping always clarifies because users tell you, yeah, I like it, but I don't love it. And you're like, cool. What can I do to fix that? How do I get people to love my product?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-99","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":100,"time":"40:20","seconds":2420,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"And, you know, there's that moment where, like, you get those little bits of encouragement, long plateaus of nothing happens. And then one day you're like, oh my god. This really worked. That's crazy. And in sports, it's like that. If you've ever played sports, like, you know you know, I was a tennis player. It's like, it takes hitting a lot of hitting against the ball to get your forehand, and you work in your backhand, and you work in your smash, and your volleys.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-100","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":101,"time":"40:43","seconds":2443,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"But if you like it and you really wanna learn, you know, your sport, and it's true for any other sport or music or anything else, it just takes a while to to master it. So, you know, for folks that wanna master this and wanna be in the grind, it it actually is kinda fun. And when you're doing something in AI, you have the knowledge of knowing, look. It's all new. Yeah. Like, I have the same advantage some, know, 20 year old kid, 15 year old, you know, kid does as someone who's 50 years old and has education, but the it it's just a matter of we're all navigating the same market, it's all new.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-101","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":102,"time":"41:17","seconds":2477,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And we're all being enabled to ship faster, whether that's writing that extra LinkedIn post, building your next feature, whatever else it might be. There is an opportunity to leverage AI to help us ship faster. Seems to clarify for me that, okay, great. We have to constantly be shipping. You have to constantly trying things. You have to be taking that data back in, iterating, experimenting as we've talked about throughout the episode.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-102","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":103,"time":"41:41","seconds":2501,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"But how do I build that resiliency of taking on that grind, and how do I build that, I guess, cultural optimism into the DNA of my AI company as I as I build it? What do I need to do to ensure that not only am I obsessed over it as a founder, but also everyone I'm bringing on board is joining me in that obsession and wants to solve customer problems and is excited and fired up to do that? How do I get them to work on that beforehand?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-103","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":104,"time":"42:09","seconds":2529,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"I think it's really hard. I think the first thing is, you know, you lead by example, so you you've gotta be willing to do it. And so, first of all, I would say being a founder is not the right answer for everyone. In fact, I would say it's not the right answer for most people, just like being a pro basketball player. It's not the right answer, you know, for me, for most people.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-104","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":105,"time":"42:28","seconds":2548,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"And so I don't mean to suggest founders are in a different category. It's just that they're optimized for a different thing. They're optimized for, like, you know, we're just in the grass while the elephants are fighting, and some people are better for running things at Google scale, right, than a founder might be at that that stage. I think one, you've gotta be interested in the problem long run. I think two, you've gotta be","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-105","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":106,"time":"42:51","seconds":2571,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"wanting to be in business. And I would say not just like, you know, you can work with someone, but it helps if you admire someone. Like, I really admire my cofounder, and that keeps me wanting to do better. Right? And he has the same level of things as those mutual admiration society of like, oh my god. It's so cool. Because that's all you have, this little when you start, it's just like two of you. It's so cool that I get to work with this person. Maybe you can build something great. It's like you're starting your little pride.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-106","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":107,"time":"43:17","seconds":2597,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"Right? You gotta be excited about the little things, and if you're not, then it just becomes, oh, we're just gonna add more engineers. We're gonna add more people. That will all come, but you've gotta want to work with people around you. Same thing with investors. I think third is you gotta want you gotta like your customers. I think one thing I learned across companies as an investor and even my first couple of things is think my second startup, which was, like, in the smart home business,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-107","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":108,"time":"43:44","seconds":2624,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"it was like it was a we're building smart locks. Right? And it's a company called August. Super cool. Loved it as a customer. I don't know if I ever woke up a day as a kid and went like you know, I love gadgets, which is why I got into it. But I don't know that as, you know, like, 12 year old, 15 year old Barat could go, oh, man. I wanna be in the lock business someday.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-108","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":109,"time":"44:05","seconds":2645,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"It was just never like a thought he had. Like, oh, man. I'm gonna be in the video game business, you know, someday, and that that came true for me. I worked with EA for many years. And so you've really gotta like your customers. That's who that's who you should be spending the most time with. And I think when you don't have that affinity right? If you love payroll, it's fine. You just gotta love working on payroll for the you know, for your customers. Not everyone does. But when you don't,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-109","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":110,"time":"44:27","seconds":2667,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"it sort of becomes like an intellectual problem. Right? Like, oh, the product manager will work on it. The engineer works on it, but you're not setting that tone of everyone ought to care about this. Like, Parker Conrad at Grippling is great at this. Like, that bad guy cares about benefits and, like, payroll and all of these little details so much that everyone that works at the company just knows that they have to care about it at least","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-110","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":111,"time":"44:49","seconds":2689,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"somewhere close to the ballpark because the CEO is reading customer support ticket. Jamie at Ring, you know, the doorbell company, you know, the camera company, Jamie had like his email on all of the Ring boxes for a very long time. So, you know, when your CEO takes customer support seriously at that level, it leaves no excuse for the rest of the organization because they're not focused on some project meeting they went to. They're they're they're getting emailed every single day about and Bezos had the same thing in Amazon. So, you know, I I think that does set the tone. And I think the last thing I would say, decide what kind of business you wanna be in. There are plenty of businesses","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-111","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":112,"time":"45:26","seconds":2726,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"that don't require taking venture capital. And, you know, venture capital is really rocket fuel. Right? It is meant for rockets. It meant like, if you take it, the assumption is you're a rocket, you're gonna go to space. Like, you're gonna fly high up in the air. But most businesses are not venture capital businesses. So it's just helpful to figure out, you know, this is a lifestyle business, which in in in the AI age, you might actually be able to create entire lifestyle businesses,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-112","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":113,"time":"45:53","seconds":2753,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"you know, that pay your bill for the rest of life. You can have a very good life managing a ton of people, and you can learn a few skills and keep evolving it. You saw some of that in the SaaS days, but I think you're gonna see a lot more of it in this AI age. You're gonna see it from all parts of the world. But venture capital is this pressure to grow if, like, we're trying to build a 5,000,000,000, $10,000,000,000 business. So if you're that type of founder and that's your capital base, you've gotta realize that that's the game you've gotten yourself into.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-113","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":114,"time":"46:20","seconds":2780,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"And you've gotta figure out how to build that type of company, attract those types of people, and generate that type of outcome. So I do think capital puts that pressure on you, so be careful as you go through these rounds of what you're seeing in your data and also just be honest about do I really wanna build that scale of company, or am I happy with something much, much smaller?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-114","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":115,"time":"46:46","seconds":2806,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And it sounds like, 16 year old Bharat may have been really excited about the idea of you building a company that is enabling creativity in three d Yeah. And art. And as we talked about earlier with this idea of, you know, inference and coding and writing all becoming so much easier to access for everyone on the world and easier to get started with, I can tell you're fired up about this idea of,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-115","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":116,"time":"47:14","seconds":2834,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"hey. Let's help collaboration for film, for games, whatever else we're building, become so much easier with intangible. And I I do very much see you taking those lessons too from Canva and Figma, which they clearly did around, this huge creative market as well. I'm I'm excited about","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-116","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":117,"time":"47:32","seconds":2852,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"technology expanding that creative envelope for people. And and I think the one of the reasons I resonate so strongly with it is, you know, I grew up in India. There wasn't a lot of import export type of stuff. So but I had two sets of LEGOs. One was like a space LEGO, and then I think one was like a construction LEGO. And as a kid, that's that's all we could afford, and I forget who'd given it to us. I would create all of these things with the LEGOs.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-117","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":118,"time":"47:58","seconds":2878,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"Right? And as an introvert, like, you spend a lot of time, like, building things and constructing things about how the future is gonna be. You see that technology has done that for successive generations of kids and builders. Right? Like, kids are building on roadblocks right now, and those kids are gonna grow up and become engineers or build something cool and interesting and different.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-118","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":119,"time":"48:17","seconds":2897,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"And I do think these cultural influences have a huge impact on the future, and I'm very excited about AI being able to orchestrate things that were previously very complex. Like those Lego blocks, right, the fact that they fit exactly right and it was that easy, and then you had time and you figured out how to create a building, and you're like, well, I'm gonna a tree or a space station.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-119","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":120,"time":"48:40","seconds":2920,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"But you were just figuring things out, and it was just fun. And so my hope is, you know, someday, you're sitting in you have the same resources that a James Cameron or Christopher Nolan or the world's best game makers do, and, you know, there's expert, and you you're sitting in a room, you're like, you know, should we do the cinematography this way? You know, what about a drone shot over here? Wouldn't it be cool if the car jumped over this bridge? And you're just telling stories.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-120","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":121,"time":"49:03","seconds":2943,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"Right? And you're able to create something, and you're able to put it out in the world, and people go, oh, that's really, really cool. And even if it it's not, you know, it's not for, like, commercial appeal, it's just fun. Even if it's just for your group of friends, even if it's, you know, something fun for your parents or your family you did or something you showed off at, you know, Thanksgiving dinner or Christmas.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-121","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":122,"time":"49:24","seconds":2964,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"Those are, like, the little moments where I'm like, you know, it's not about some big corporate thing where you're producing big commercials and stuff. It might actually bring the fun back to those micro moments. And so I'm very excited about the fact that, there are all of these models out there right now, right, at least in my space. So what Intangible does is we're building the world's simplest three d creative tool to communicate better with all of these AI models that have incredible power,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-122","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":123,"time":"49:50","seconds":2990,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"but you've gotta communicate with them through typing. So imagine you had, like, the world's most, you know, gifted cinematographers, production crew, lighting people, whatever it is, and you have Christopher Nolan, like famous director on the other side. And the only way he can communicate with them is by text. He's gotta do an entire movie by text. Move the camera to the left. I want this. And then they you know, it takes a few minutes, and then he you know, it shows up, and he's like, no. No. No. That's not quite right.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-123","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":124,"time":"50:19","seconds":3019,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"And that's kind of the state of art right now, you know, with with ChatGPT and tools like that, at least in the media space. Right? If it's just text based reasoning, research, totally makes sense that text is the right interface and, you know, prompting is the best thing. You want the thing that's in your head as a human being to be the thing that you see on the screen, and text is just not the right way of doing that. So the promise for Intangible,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-124","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":125,"time":"50:43","seconds":3043,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"at least, is can we build something that allows human beings to get the vision that's in their head to a machine which, you know, is orders of magnitude more powerful and can give it to you, but it can translate that if all you're doing is texting it little bits of context. And if you can simply show it, you know, in three d in this interactive world, this is what I mean, and even if you do a rough sketch of it, it can take it and run","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-125","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":126,"time":"51:09","seconds":3069,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"and create a whole production grade environment. Right? And that's that speed and control that you want in these early stages. And I think of Legos like that. It's speed and control. I can control every little piece of it, but it's also really, really fast to put things together. And the more you do it, the more it builds your confidence. And I feel like that's what Canva did. That's what Figma did. So in this world of, you know,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-126","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":127,"time":"51:31","seconds":3091,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"models that are starting to do film and games and, you know, campaign commercials and all this stuff, is some way to create virtual cinematographers and other people that you can have conversations with. And you can get good at this craft if that's something you're excited about. I'm I love it. I'm super excited to see what you build with Intangible,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-127","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":128,"time":"51:51","seconds":3111,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and everyone can check it out at intangible.ai and request early access. Plus, make sure you follow Bharat on LinkedIn where he shares a ton of incredible insights. Bharat, is there anywhere else that our audience should be going to check you out and follow the work that's being done in Intangible? Twitter as well.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-128","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":129,"time":"52:07","seconds":3127,"speaker":"Bharat Vasan","text":"And, yeah, if people are curious about it, curious about the space, happy to tell you more, at least my point of view,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-129","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":130,"time":"52:14","seconds":3134,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and thank you for having me on. Yeah. Thanks for coming to share your point of view with our listeners. It's been a fantastic conversation. Everyone who is listening, make sure you keep up with the latest AI news and expertise from folks like Bharat here on the podcast by subscribing in your podcasting feed. Let's say maybe you're on YouTube, maybe you're on Spotify,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-130","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era","episode":30,"guid":"f6eb4e29-bc0f-4330-85e3-76881e4f3a96","episodeTitle":"Taste Is The New Moat: Why Customer Obsession Wins in the AI Era | Bharat Vasan, Intangible","publishedAt":"2025-07-02","segmentIndex":131,"time":"52:34","seconds":3154,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"maybe you're on Apple Podcasts, you're consuming this. Hey, a like goes a long way. A comment goes a long way. A rating or review goes a long way to helping us get more incredible guests like Bharat and so many more that you've hopefully listened to here with Chain of Thought. Thank you all for tuning in, and we'll see you next week. Bharat, thanks again for coming on the show. It's been fantastic having you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/30-taste-is-the-new-moat-why-customer-obsession-wins-in-the-ai-era/#t-131","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"I wanna say it's it's shaking up everything. It's shaking up the stacks. It's shaking up the protocols. And maybe I'm going too far here, but it's it's shaking up the market. A bunch of, like, companies that were quote, unquote coasting, like, and now everyone is, like, in the trenches and, no, no, no. This is it. This is the real deal. Like, this thing can change the market in a way that's meaningful.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:29","seconds":29,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Welcome back to Chain of Thought, everyone. I am your host, Conor Bronsdon, and I'm delighted to have my cohost, Vikram Chatterji, cofounder and CEO of Galileo. Vikram, great to see you on this Friday. Thanks, Conor. Happy Friday to you. Yeah. And it's an especially exciting conversation we're about to have because we are lucky to have João Moura, the founder and CEO of Crew AI joining us. Joe, so good to see you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":2,"time":"0:52","seconds":52,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"Hey there. Thank you for having me. Very excited to be here and chatting today.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":3,"time":"0:56","seconds":56,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"So many stuff for us to go over.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":4,"time":"0:58","seconds":58,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Oh my god. No kidding. The AI agent space is just undeniably electric right now. We've got people trying to create new frameworks. We have enterprises scrambling to find their agent strategies, as I know a lot of folks are talking to you about. Developers are, I think, both excited and maybe a little overwhelmed by this year's pace of innovation.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":5,"time":"1:18","seconds":78,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And you, Joe, are right in the eye of that storm building Crew AI. So we're very keen to talk to you today and to discuss how to make great AI agents, whether it's at a startup, whether it's at an enterprise, and to explore this emerging AI stack, what it looks like, where we're headed, how companies can build reliable agents that deliver on the promise of customer value.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":6,"time":"1:41","seconds":101,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And we also want to get your thoughts on interoperability. There's so many different frameworks being discussed, whether that's Google's A2A, agent the agency effort with Cisco that we're both a part of, governance, and broadly how agentic workflows may reshape how software works and what we're doing on a day to day basis. So let's start with this broad piece of","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":7,"time":"2:04","seconds":124,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"what is the AI agent stack, and how would you define it and its core components today?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":8,"time":"2:12","seconds":132,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I love that. That's such a great question.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":9,"time":"2:13","seconds":133,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"And by the way, given the scope of what we're covering, it's gonna be a five hour episode. This is gonna be pretty chill. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":10,"time":"2:18","seconds":138,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I hope you don't have a hard stop here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":11,"time":"2:20","seconds":140,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"No. But I I I gotta say that this the idea of a stack is something that I I started thinking about after I actually spent three days in kinda like another company off-site.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":12,"time":"2:34","seconds":154,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"This company is huge, right? It was like 900 people in there and I was invited because they were a partner and we're about to coach them on sell Kure AI so they could resell us, our enterprise, kind of like licensing. And in there, I was I was talking with these people and I was trying to understand like, alright, like these these guys are closing these insane","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":13,"time":"2:56","seconds":176,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"deals, like $20,000,000 deals. And I was trying to understand like, what is that product? And I started to realize a little bit about their product, and then I started to look at agents, and I was like, well, that's very similar. And you if you look at the market right now, it's actually it is very similar. Like, you you look at all these companies, they usually start on this","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":14,"time":"3:18","seconds":198,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"discovery process where they have this, like this desire to get enabled or educated, and with that comes a bunch of interesting technical questions. Like, oh, memory, or how about graphs versus events, and all the open source projects. And now those are interesting questions, but honestly, they are a commodity. Like, yes, you're getting memory. There's 20 different ways that you can do that. Like, that doesn't really matter at the end of the day. But once those companies start to think about,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":15,"time":"3:51","seconds":231,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"alright, we're gonna be agentic native, right, and that's just a fancy way of saying, like, I'm gonna have hundreds or maybe thousands of agents running in production in x year's time, then the real questions pop up, and you start to thinking about, well, how am I gonna provision them? How am I gonna think about authentication? How am gonna evaluate them? How am I gonna measure them? And and that,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":16,"time":"4:12","seconds":252,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"for me goes into this idea that it's not like one thing like this companies will need a suite and is a suite because of the stack is that is many different things. And it's for all the genetic resources, not only the agents, The agents, the tool, the authentication, the authorizations, and everything's in between. So I think it starts on the bottom on the, you know, like, data management level. So your Databricks or Snowflake or BigQuery, and then you work away","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":17,"time":"4:39","seconds":279,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"through MLM orchestration, authentication, connectors, and stops at, like, this idea of agentic apps where you have a natural UI that you can actually interface with these agents. But, sorry. I'm gonna leave at that because it's something that we can talk about, but that alone is a huge topic.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":18,"time":"4:58","seconds":298,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"I'm also curious, Joe, when you think about stacks generally, right, with the if you if you go back to cloud time frame, it goes back to that IPA framework and sense that there's infrastructure, this platform, and then all of that allows you to build applications on top. We are starting to hear a lot from the the cloud providers, as well as a bunch of others around how this IPA framework almost changes for agents. Like the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":19,"time":"5:25","seconds":325,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"infrastructure that you need for this, it's obviously there's the there's the there's the compute side of things, but then there's also the whole idea of like, how do you actually build out these these agents at scale very soon? And then there's a platform side of this where Crew plays a very big role there, but how do you help people build out these agents quickly? But to your point, the platform piece also starts to include what does auth look like, and what does the communication protocols look like.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":20,"time":"5:49","seconds":349,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"How much of the how much of the stack, the IPA stack, so to speak, and you think is gonna stay the same as what it was for the cloud versus it's gonna have to change fundamentally for multi agentic systems, which I personally think is, like, literally, by the end of twenty twenty five, you're gonna have those agent marketplaces. We're gonna all be talking about","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":21,"time":"6:07","seconds":367,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"don't recreate your own, I don't know, agent for travel booking. Just use these five agents out there. And so there's gonna be a marketplace. What what changes and what doesn't change from a stack perspective, you think?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":22,"time":"6:19","seconds":379,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"I mean, that's that's happening. I mean, heard I I heard it's happening. It's coming. There's many people like, we have our own marketplace by now when the episode comes out, but there's other companies they're also launching their own. So I think it's it's right on the corner. Yeah. If I got to choose,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":23,"time":"6:36","seconds":396,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"I wish more stayed the same. I'm a simple kinda, like, guy. I like protocols that work, that have been around for forever. Like, HTTP and RAST is just, like, it's my bread and butter. But I think, like, honestly, there's a there's definitely a push for new pieces out there. Right? And and that is changing a little bit. So I think some of the infrastructure remains the same. Yes. To some extent. But we're seeing even, like, companies questioning their infrastructure choices.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":24,"time":"7:04","seconds":424,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"A lot of companies calling back from the cloud. Like Yeah. I don't want a SaaS. I wanna self host. And some companies are like, I don't wanna self host. I want on prem. I want a physical server. Like, you run some of this math and there are companies that are batting on this and this is the way that things are gonna go, I honestly I I'm not a 100% sure that one way or the other yet, but there are big companies batting that, like, on prem and physical servers are gonna be the thing for the next ten years, because, like, if you're running this at a huge scale and you can save 60%","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":25,"time":"7:36","seconds":456,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"by running this cycle, like, in a physical server, it might justify you doing it. I'm not sure yet if that's the way that things are gonna go, but I wanna say it's it's shaking up everything. It's shaking up the stacks, it's shaking up, like, the preexisting, it's shaking up the protocols with all the new protocols coming. And and honestly, and maybe I'm going too far here, but it's it's shaking up the market.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":26,"time":"7:59","seconds":479,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"I mean, our you look out there, a bunch of, like, companies that were quote, unquote coasting, like you're winning, like you you don't come out of the woodwork like like like the Sergei, right, from Google. When you saw that guy like come up in like in the news and give interviews like it has been forever like and now everyone is, like, in the trenches and, like, no. No. No. This is it. This is the real deal. Like, this thing can change the market in a way that's meaningful so everyone is out there. You see Benioff out there. You see, like, all the big players getting in the dirt. So to your point, going back to your questions, I think there's a lot a lot of the things that will change.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":27,"time":"8:37","seconds":517,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"I think the new protocols definitely MCP and a two a kinda, like, had a a a head start, and that's kinda, like, pretty interesting. I think MCP has, like, a wants to expand now to also include agents. So it's very clearly gonna be, like, AWS against, like, Microsoft and Google, it seems, kinda, like, battling for that protocol there. But I think, a proper standards is gonna take, like, years to establish.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":28,"time":"9:02","seconds":542,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And interoperability has to be a priority here because as you're both highlighting, the opportunity here is to have thousands of agents potentially working together. And that doesn't necessarily mean only internal. You're often gonna have to interact with other companies' agents. You're gonna have, in fact, you probably already are in some cases on the Internet today. So","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":29,"time":"9:25","seconds":565,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"how do we ensure that this ecosystem actually has the right frameworks and the ability to deliver on this promise instead of becoming even more chaotic?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":30,"time":"9:38","seconds":578,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"The hyperscredders are gonna play a a role in this. This is very clear. So there there there are integrations with them. So for example, Crea is natively integrated now with Badrock Agents in Azure AI Studio. So we just announced it with with the Microsoft folks on the build event in Seattle in a few weeks ago with AWS. But I think the hyperscalers are gonna play a role. But beyond the hyperscalers,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":31,"time":"10:05","seconds":605,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"there are companies that are gonna have their own agents. Right? So if you really think about it, like, ServiceNow was a big one, SAP is a big one, and and Salesforce is another big one. And Yep. Companies are gonna use those agents. There's no way around it. Right? So right now, a lot of the work that we do is working with this company, figuring out those connection points.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":32,"time":"10:25","seconds":625,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"And some companies are not ready to kinda, like, settle on the framework on kinda, like, a protocol, and they just wanna kinda, alright. Let let's do, like, HCP, and and that's okay. So I think as long as, like, as long as there is interoperability, I think how we get there, the customers don't really care. But interoperability does need to exist. I mean, that's the one thing that we hear from everyone in the market is no one wants to get them their lock anywhere in the stack. They wanna change LLMs at any point. They wanna change frameworks at any point. They wanna change, like, memory at any point. They would just wanna have flexibility.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":33,"time":"11:03","seconds":663,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Yeah. And actually, to that point of flexibility, let's if we go from if we transition from the enterprise down to the actual developer that's trying to build stuff. Right? We're seeing for a while now that the software engineers have finally gotten all these tools that they can just use and build stuff. But going back to that, like, age old question mark, which they all have around, like, I I can build out these these pilots really quickly, and I can I can I can do really cool things in a hackathon? But as soon as we start talking to even startups here in San Francisco around, like, great, but this is this is a massive business that you can build. You can build agents to try to to completely,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":34,"time":"11:42","seconds":702,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"you know, upheaval the entire supply chain market. They're like, yes. That's what we're do. Day three of that, they're like, it doesn't quite work. We need to kind of figure out how to make this work. It has a 100 more failure modes than than than we thought before with a simpler Rag based system. This is the big bottleneck that I'm always very curious about because there's a whole build stack, but then there's the actual productionization","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":35,"time":"12:03","seconds":723,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"stack. And there's something to do with the new SDLC process almost for for these nondeterministic systems. So maybe something to talk through is, like, what what should developers be thinking about with the like, can can you use your own existing IDE, your your your existing testing frameworks, etcetera? And but where do you change things up in your SDLC process such that you can actually build at scale in a very reliable way with these multi agent systems?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":36,"time":"12:35","seconds":755,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"Yeah. I think, honestly, like, it's as you said, it's a different mental mental model. Right? We're talking about, like, this idea of, like, nondeterministic kind of, like, framework. So if you think about traditional software engineer, independently of, like, whatever language you use, you're talking out of very strongly typed systems, where you very clearly","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":37,"time":"12:55","seconds":775,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"know what it is coming in, what are the transformations that are happening, and what's coming out, and with agents and like AI apps, you don't. So writing deterministic tasks become a problem, and things like LM as a judge become way more important in here. So I think like that's where like things like some of the folks that you some of the things that you folks are doing are like very important because","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":38,"time":"13:17","seconds":797,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"if you're not measuring, like, you don't know if, like, it's working. What we see is, like, people sometimes struggles at different points. They struggle to get it started because they've never done something like this, and usually we help them quite a lot, but then they also struggle to get it better because they get into, you know, like a kind of like a short kind of blanket kind of thing where they fix one way, then the feet go out and scold, and they fix the feet and the blanket's short to get on top. So, like, in some they're operating without having, like, the regular","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":39,"time":"13:52","seconds":832,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"CI, CD, texting that you would do and more, like, mature things. So I think there's, again, there's a stack out there. There are tools out there that can help with you. But I think a lot of the engineers out there, they're not like you and I. They're leaving and briefing them of the day to day. They're still catching up, honestly.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":40,"time":"14:10","seconds":850,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So let me posit this to both of you then. You've both alluded to some of the edge cases, some of the opportunities here. And and obviously, Karru's doing some incredible stuff to increase the accuracy and reliability of agents, and Galileo is taking our own approach of, like, how can we provide evaluations, observability, and reliability tools for folks who are building agents.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":41,"time":"14:33","seconds":873,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"But what are the other areas where significant innovation needs to occur for agents to realize their potential? Are there particular layers where that are very nascent still or need additional standardization? I'd be curious to get both your opinions on this.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":42,"time":"14:50","seconds":890,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"Now I I can tell you that, like, for for me, there's a few big layers. I think authentication is one. Very clear there's there's a lot of people working on this. Right? Like, Okta is launching their own thing. Microsoft launched their Entra integration and all that. But it's still not very clear. Like, it it feels a lot of, like, smoke mirrors. Right? Like, yes, you now can fingerprint and you can authenticate,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":43,"time":"15:16","seconds":916,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"but there's like, this problem runs way deep. It's not only authentication, it's the scope of the access and then dynamically changing that scope of access as the execution goes, depending on who is running this. Like, I mean, just a few days ago, right, GitHub that the huge, like, instant where their new MCP server was giving access to private repos and it shouldn't. So I I I think, I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":44,"time":"15:41","seconds":941,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"I think, Vikram, you kinda hinted into this, like, bringing the systems in production creates so many new vectors of attention, that you gotta have that you you don't watch for.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":45,"time":"15:49","seconds":949,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Yep. 100%. I feel like the the there are a couple of these layers, Conor, but it does require cross across the industry adoption of certain standards for this to actually happen. The one weird parallel that I talk about, and I'll do this in thirty seconds just to keep it short, is in the financial services space, honestly. Because,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":46,"time":"16:10","seconds":970,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"you know, it was it's really there's a big interoperability problem in amongst banks for sending money from one bank to the other. Right? And in in in Asia, across China and India and a a couple of other countries across Europe, they built out an interoperability network across the all the states and across the EU, across countries, and that was adopted by everybody. What that allowed you to do is send money from one bank to the other bank by just, like, using a very simple protocol.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":47,"time":"16:37","seconds":997,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"I'm I think the same thing needs to happen here because once you you know, we you have to have these protocols for being which everyone can just agree to. The worry that I have on that side of the stack, on the protocol side of the stack, is the same thing that happened with models where people are thinking of that part of the stack as something that I can own as a cloud provider. Right? And and this is gonna allow me to become to have the wedge such that I can own the entire agentic market. I think that's the that's a very shortsighted way of doing things. Right? It's kind of like how OpenAI just came out with a closed source mark. They're just gonna own this and monetize the hell out of this. Google came out with BERT way back, which was the right way of doing this in my opinion, and I am biased because I was part of that. But I feel like that was that was good because now go, builders. Let builders build. Let let people do more with this. So I feel like the now the same thing is happening with frameworks where you have a two a and a bunch of others, and the ones which start to get","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":48,"time":"17:31","seconds":1051,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"where you're taking a cross industry approach to this. So you bring everyone together and start to adopt everything around this one framework. And that's gonna be very important on the at just the communication protocol side of things. So I think that's one side of the stack, which is, hopefully, by the end of this year, we see something kind of come up where everyone just galvanizing around one standard. I think that's gonna be huge.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":49,"time":"17:55","seconds":1075,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"But the other piece is to Joe's point before, I agree with him. There's something around authentication, which is really gonna be important as well, where you might see Okta coming in, but you're also starting to see certain security players come in because now there's nonhuman identities from a security perspective, which is becoming a bigger and bigger thing. Again, Okta is playing there. A couple others are playing there. But if you if you look at it, it's kinda similar. Again, I go back to cloud because it cloud brought in the advent of Okta","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":50,"time":"18:21","seconds":1101,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"actually had to be built out for that. Datadog had to come in for observability. You had to have see, all sorts of cloud security companies came and got bought by Cisco. So the same thing is gonna happen all over again, I feel like. The whole stack is completely free. But the biggest thing which worries me is this is the communication protocol where I'm starting to see people get a little bit greedy around, like, I own this now. I own this. It shouldn't be that way. Somebody has to come in and say, like, we all own this. Let's work together as Switzerland, and let's come up with something which everyone can own as open source.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":51,"time":"18:48","seconds":1128,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"Yeah. I feel the protocol for sure. And we had people ping us about, like, hey. Let's lounge like this. Let's do that. And and and, honestly, like, yeah. It's interesting to see. It's definitely there's there's a sentiment there, you can tell that people feel like if they launch the protocol, they they get to the market a little bit, and honestly, I don't think that that's the way that it would work. I think, honestly, even whoever launches a successful protocol,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":52,"time":"19:15","seconds":1155,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"I don't think, like, this person is gonna get much of an edge. If anything, they're gonna spend a lot of time working on this while other people are building.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":53,"time":"19:22","seconds":1162,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Yep. Exactly. It's I feel like it should just be some kind of an open source protocol. The MCP piece is interesting, but that's not the same as these communication protocols. I I'm I was very excited about the MCP's piece because at least that allowed some standardization around tool calling, which is great.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":54,"time":"19:40","seconds":1180,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"That that was a huge unlock. That was such a big pain point, but I feel like now the next pain point, which has not been completely faced by people, honestly, is the multi agentic communication protocol. If anyone very few people I think Joab alluded to this before. Very few people in the enterprise are actually building on multi agentic systems, true multi agentic systems. And so the pain hasn't been felt. But I feel like by the end of the year, with these marketplaces coming in, so many people will face that pain that we are gonna have to start working towards some kind of a communication protocol that we can all agree to and then start to say no to a bunch of these others.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":55,"time":"20:12","seconds":1212,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Agree. Agree.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":56,"time":"20:14","seconds":1214,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"What about the governance side of this? As we start to unleash more and more agents into our businesses, into our day to day lives, particularly as they get more complex with these multi agent systems that are capable of more than maybe some of the the junior coding interns that we started with in certain cases. There are so many second order and third order impacts that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":57,"time":"20:38","seconds":1238,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"can potentially occur here. And, you know, Vikram, you brought up financial services here and the, you know, the idea of the the swift network approach. There are also a ton of regulations that come come in there, and banks in particular need to consider that. But most industries have some regulatory frameworks to concern themselves with. What do you think developers and organizations that are building AI agents","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":58,"time":"21:01","seconds":1261,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"should be thinking about when it comes to governance and, I guess, the actual not just observability, but also,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":59,"time":"21:11","seconds":1271,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"maintenance of these systems?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":60,"time":"21:11","seconds":1271,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Joe, I'll be very curious to get Joe's thoughts on this, especially given where Drew sits in in this space. And I know that you probably are talking to a lot of financial services too. I it's actually fresh in my mind right now because I just before this kind of a call with one of these with the top 10 bank in The US, and they're first of all, they're they're building agents. Like, they're they're I take that back. They've built a multi agentic system for their internal use cases already, which is amazing to see, first, from just an adoption perspective, first of all. I just take a second to understand this. Like, it's this is new technology. This is a top 10 bank in The United States, and they've already built a multi agentic system. So it's here and now and and then some. But the second thing was their question was,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":61,"time":"21:52","seconds":1312,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"about governance. Their question was, how do I I have all these policies from my moderate risk management team, from my other teams, and I and my other stakeholders. I have auditability, and I have all of these other responsibilities to uphold you. How can I take all these policies and actually bake that into my system so that I can actually show them exactly how this this these agents made their decisions, number one, which is more of a visibility protocol? And the second one is more about how do I bake these different policies into my system in the form of different kinds of","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":62,"time":"22:26","seconds":1346,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"different kinds of evaluators. And that's kind of where, you know, Galileo has been playing quite a big role. We've been thinking a lot more about this. We don't believe the future of the system of this industry is going to be a set of magic metrics, which has been, I feel like, very much generative AI one point zero observability, which is like, I have these 10 metrics and I have these 15.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":63,"time":"22:46","seconds":1366,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"That's nonsense. Like, we keep coaching people about how it's all about your use case and your business and how you can bring those policies and bake that into the system in the form of really high accuracy custom evaluators that you can build out. And I think that's where that's where things are gonna go. And I think it's gonna get more and more solidified from a product process perspective in these companies","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":64,"time":"23:09","seconds":1389,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"around, you know, how do you build these high accuracy evaluators, and how do you bake that into your SDLC process and your CICD process? And that's very that's to Joe's point before about education and coaching. That's generally the coaching that we give them as well. Like, don't come don't don't come in asking for, I don't know, a faithfulness metric. It is, again, like, it's ludicrous.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":65,"time":"23:29","seconds":1409,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Like, you ask the question of, like, what's important for your business, for your use case? Let's let think about that more deeply, and then we'll give you that metrics IDE for you to be able create that in two minutes, and then take that into your CICD. As I said, it's high quality, low cost, low latency, and scalable. That's that's why I feel like that that move has to be made for the auditability, traceability, and governance side of things. But I'd be very curious to hear your thoughts, Joe, in terms of, like, when you're talking to these banks and telling them that, hey. You can build all these crews.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":66,"time":"23:58","seconds":1438,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"I'll bet that their eyes light up in terms of the thousands of use cases they can unlock. But then their eyes probably get into the side of, like, wait. But how do I get through governance and security and everything else?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":67,"time":"24:08","seconds":1448,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"Yeah. I gotta say it's interesting because I think, like, highly regulated industries are moving exceptionally fast on this. Yep. I mean, financial industry for sure, but also insurance companies are moving exceptionally fast. Like, there's a bunch of industries that traditionally move slowly,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":68,"time":"24:24","seconds":1464,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"and they are jumping on this. And I think it's because, like, they see the potential, right, for, like, the the efficiency gains that they can have on some of these. Because usually, by the way, the industry means a lot of back office work, so that means a lot of potential for automating. We're seeing again, we're talking with some of these banks, and we might be talking with the same bank, and they're","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":69,"time":"24:44","seconds":1484,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"they're building quite a lot, and it's interesting to see because I agree with you, and and you see that even on the use cases. Right? When someone come to us and, like, they they ask us, hey. What should I be doing or what are what are other people doing? Usually, like, we disqualify them as a customer, and we don't spend too much time with them because they're not ready. Right? And even if they show up with a use case, if they don't know what a success looks like, then what's the point? Yeah. So you you gotta have you gotta you gotta know,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":70,"time":"25:12","seconds":1512,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"like, what are you gonna do first, then what a success looks like for that, and then then we talk about how we're gonna measure it. Because if you don't measure it, again, like, there there's no point in kinda, like, viewing this out and not being able to tell if it's being successful or not. So I agree with you. I think, like, a successful metrics here, you you can do a few things with LMs that judge, but you're gonna say, what is the quality and what is the hallucination? Then it's pretty good that it takes you far enough,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":71,"time":"25:38","seconds":1538,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"but you gotta go custom. There there's no there's no way around it. Right? For certain use cases, they're gonna be more taking actions and be measuring that. For other use cases, you might actually be in measuring tech on the bottom line and and how you're gonna measure that. So I do think that knowing what a success looks like and then making sure that you implement measurements for that is what unlocks people to move faster. And this goes to your point","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":72,"time":"26:07","seconds":1567,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"way, way, way, way above, like, traditional kind of, like, evaluation for LLMs where people are basically doing traces. Right? Like, oh, I do traces and I collect nectars around those traces. Well, that falls very short now when you're talking about agents. There's so many more layers in there that you wanna have observability on and that you could measure and evaluate things on that, that, yeah, you're missing out if you're selling just for, like, traditional kinda, like,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":73,"time":"26:33","seconds":1593,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"LLM like tracing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-73","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":74,"time":"26:35","seconds":1595,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. We've actually recently released new capabilities around that as well, particularly targeted at trying to help builders to identify and unpack these more complex use cases that you're alluding to here, Joe. And then also on the customization side, we recently released a family of additional Luna models based on our our in house research team's proprietary work that are designed to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-74","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":75,"time":"27:03","seconds":1623,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"to create custom SLM evaluators that are especially useful for these kind of high risk production deployments you're talking about and can enable customization at a high level and an in-depth focus for large enterprises like FSIs, and in particular, we're seeing a lot of help from that when it comes to banks who need to create these custom metrics and these customized evaluation frameworks","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-75","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":76,"time":"27:29","seconds":1649,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"that not only include the LMS judge, but custom SLMs that they fine tuned with us, and then also feeding in expert feedback from humans to auto tune these metrics and provide continuous learning through that human feedback. I'm particularly excited by this hybrid approach that we're seeing evolve and that we're seeing a lot of these major enterprises really start to think through and build out because to me, that seems like the direction to go to enable these vast multi agent crew systems","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-76","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":77,"time":"28:00","seconds":1680,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"to really go into production as we get through the rest of the year.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-77","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":78,"time":"28:03","seconds":1683,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"Great. I agree. I agree. And this idea of liking having, like, SLMs kinda, like, validating and, like, playing a role here, I think, like, that's huge.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-78","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":79,"time":"28:10","seconds":1690,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"The one other thing I would add, Conor, though, is with the adoption of a 100 crews across an enterprise, right, the the what that does is it allows these developers to be able to build these systems that massively reduce operational expenses, right, at the bare minimum. Obviously, then there's an entire revenue component to this as well. So the value this unlocks is massive.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-79","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":80,"time":"28:36","seconds":1716,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"We've also heard, and I'm curious to get your thoughts on this, Joe. We've heard about how because of this, the this the complexity of the software system itself for them is just much more than what they've had before. But at least earlier, I feel like they could wrap their head around the fact that there's a prompt, there's a model, there's context, there's chunks, and I get it. And it's, like, four or five things I can check for. I can they figure it out. Now it's like, which tool was called? What was the quality of the handoff? And which tool was not called? And why? Was there did the action actually get completed in the end or not? And the bar for whether action got completed or not is much higher than the bar for did the chatbot actually respond to the right thing or not. And so, you know, what we're starting to see is the number of Helium words that increased.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-80","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":81,"time":"29:20","seconds":1760,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"And so I I feel like the other transition that's starting to happen or needs to happen now, at least from our customers, we keep hearing this, is you can't just even custom evaluators and stuff are not enough. You have to almost start to give them insights into, here are the five to 10 things that are going wrong across all your crews potentially, or not even wrong. It's more like, here are the five to 10 optimizations you can make across all of these different crews, across all these different agents.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-81","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":82,"time":"29:44","seconds":1784,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Maybe you're calling five tools which are doing basically the same thing. This happens to me all the time when I'm building out apps. And I would love it for some some my dev tool to just tell me that this is what's going wrong. It's almost like a cursor, but for my reliability of these tools. So we're starting to see that transition also starting to play out, and that's something which we just, frankly, launched ourselves as well. We call it our insights engine, where we automatically tell developers, like, here are the five to 10 things that are going wrong that with which you it's probably gonna take you two weeks to notice if if that and here's what you can do about it. I feel like that's gonna be much more important going forward than asking people to just try to figure it out, especially the system is getting so complex. So curious to get your thoughts about the complexity of the system and how developers should think about that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-82","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":83,"time":"30:28","seconds":1828,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"Yeah. I mean, the systems are definitely getting more complex because in the end of the day, like, these agents, they're they're at the layer on top of everything and you can have them perform rag and they can have them using these tools. So I agree with you that there is values of metrics that zoom in,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-83","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":84,"time":"30:44","seconds":1844,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"like, but there's also maybe even more value in metrics that zoom out. Right? And we do add some of that on on our platform as well where you can zoom out and see overall like, alright, let me see what this executions are looking like. How are my agents behaving? What are my best agents? What are my worst? Why are my agents that elucidate the most? What are they want to do least? What are the tools that are breaking the most? What are, like, my cash retake on some of these tools? Right? There's a lot of metrics in there that I think can be very helpful. But I agree with you. I think right now, what people are realizing is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-84","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":85,"time":"31:21","seconds":1881,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"one thing is is, like, playing and building the systems, and as you sound like you prototype something in a half a ton is very exciting. When you think about it's not even about getting this to production. It's more about scaling this to hundreds and even tens. Like like that that comes with its own complexity. I think some of, like, our most advanced and, like, customers now,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-85","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":86,"time":"31:45","seconds":1905,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"they're putting around five use cases in production a month. What for me is insane. And that was up pretty fast. Like, honestly, if math and, alright, Like, I did five one month. That's okay. And now I and add another five. Now who is controlling this? Like, how big is this seam? Who is monitoring this? Who is making sure that this is working or not? So I I think there is a layer thereof, like,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-86","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":87,"time":"32:13","seconds":1933,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"I there is a stack, and part of the stack is this control plane features Yeah. That they are getting lead to have in order to control your operation of agents as a whole. Yeah. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-87","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":88,"time":"32:28","seconds":1948,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Agreed.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-88","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":89,"time":"32:30","seconds":1950,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Joe, is this part of why Crew has been leaning into no code as this rapid proliferation that we're seeing and how many use cases folks are building and particularly as folks are building more coding agents too. It sounds like from what I've heard you say, crew is really thinking about this as a, okay. We're gonna be an orchestration control plane versus","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-89","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":90,"time":"32:57","seconds":1977,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"always be helping build the individual agents. Maybe we're gonna make that really easy for you to do with workflows that don't require you to to do a ton of coding. But I'd love to understand more about that strategy and how Cruise approaching this.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-90","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":91,"time":"33:07","seconds":1987,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"Yeah. I think some of our thinking is if you really wanna transform, like, companies like that, you you need to democratize access to this. Right? It can be something that just a subset of people is doing. You need to make sure that everyone in the company is empowered to do it. And right now, even if you give, like, a and, like, no code twos out there for people,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-91","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":92,"time":"33:28","seconds":2008,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"it's weird. You look at them using it. And I don't know if you ever had this happen to you, but you probably have, like, some elder in your family. And do you know, like, when they, like, they point you to the control, like, the remote for the TV, and they're like, is it okay if I press this? Like, they're not sure if they should, if there's something that'll break, and they're gonna con this configure the whole thing. So, like, that's kinda, like, what I see sometimes, like, there's nontechnical people trying to use these systems.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-92","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":93,"time":"33:56","seconds":2036,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"And I I think we can do so much better than that, like, as an industry. So I think a lot of our focus now is if you really think about it and you democratize the access for people to do these agents, if you can viewed, to Vikram's point, 50 amazing agents and you can put them in a repository that this company can now reuse, there's so many different combinations that you can put them together that you can automate","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-93","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":94,"time":"34:22","seconds":2062,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"a lot of their processes. Right? And I think, like, then that gets, like, these companies on the on the follow-up stage that we are too far to steal, but I think it's gonna be somewhere in the future, and that is, like, less about automating the process and not about rethinking them entirely, And, like, realizing that some of the steps in there are not even necessary anymore","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-94","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":95,"time":"34:43","seconds":2083,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"and what that means. So I I think that's gonna be exciting, but we're definitely our thinking there on no code is, again, our crew has the open source promo code where we have a dedicated team. We we look at that as a product, and we keep investing on that. And that is very important for us. I think it's the main kinda, like, asset. It's a huge way for us to give back the community.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-95","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":96,"time":"35:06","seconds":2106,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"At the end of the day, like, if you really wanna, like, transform the market, you need to democratize access even further.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-96","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":97,"time":"35:12","seconds":2112,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So as we democratize access to agents and unleash these hoards of interns and, you know, sometimes PhD level folks on businesses. There's this massive need, as you've both talked about, to observe them, to understand their impact, to identify the, you know, the pros and cons of what they're doing and improve and iterate on that. With that in mind, what's the philosophy","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-97","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":98,"time":"35:39","seconds":2139,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"that you both think developers and other folks who are building these technical systems should take when it comes to testing and ensuring the quality, reliability and value of their agents.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-98","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":99,"time":"35:52","seconds":2152,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"Yeah. I gotta say it's something that, it's funny and and Decrean will probably tell you the same is like, on day zero, they might not care or not spend too much time on it. They're just so excited. And then they deploy it, and then that's okay. But then what happens is, like, they have this thing ready in production, then someone deploys and breaks. Yep. It is not that it breaks like the new thing that they're doing, the new thing works","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-99","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":100,"time":"36:19","seconds":2179,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"and it breaks like something that it used to work before and now they have to roll back and now they go into that like oh now we need to run like 10 prompts to make sure that this works before we deploy it, and then becomes a manual process, and that's the point where they like, alright, we need some help here, either two or people, there's something that is gonna help us with this. So I think like that's kinda like where where things are tracking now. People are moving fast, very excited,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-100","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":101,"time":"36:47","seconds":2207,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"and then they realize that as they start to regenerating fast, they start to break. And they start break because they don't have measurements in place. They don't have, like, observability in place. They don't have all those things in place that help them. Kinda like to to your point, kinda like a see this come from a mile afar. Right? And even preventing those from happening, and that gets in the way sometimes. But I think it's gonna be a a key","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-101","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":102,"time":"37:11","seconds":2231,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"aspect. Like, I keep telling people this, like, some people, like, sometimes some customers, especially on the first call, they might ask, like, the the infamous question, like, why should I why should I buy your enterprise solution? I can use OpenSearch. I was like, well, imagine why they're running a thousand agents in OpenSearch gonna look like. And, like, how are gonna control that? Right? So there I get it. I don't think open source is competitive","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-102","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":103,"time":"37:39","seconds":2259,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"with enterprise. I think they're complementary. You still use open source. Right? And you can use any open source. That's the beauty of it. So that would be a little bit of my take. I think there's definitely, like, component here of, like if people don't start thinking about data from day zero, it's gonna come back to haunt them pretty fast, and they're gonna need to go around and figure it out.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-103","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":104,"time":"37:59","seconds":2279,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Yeah. I 100% agree. It gets the day zero first principles thinking.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-104","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":105,"time":"38:04","seconds":2284,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"From a software engineering perspective, it's still the same concept. So you have to go back to thinking about what's the use case, and therefore what are the different tests I need to build out, and therefore and then what's and do some kind of ski testing, preproduction, and then also obviously in production. The difference, though, that I feel like is what is interesting is all of this is still","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-105","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":106,"time":"38:25","seconds":2305,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"data science. Right? We've just lost the science in data science because now it's we've gone so far away from this being called machine learning to now AI to now agents. We've forgotten that this used to be all machine learning, literally a year and a half ago. And so the data scientists in the room look at all of this, and they're like, of course, you need to look at the data. Of course, there are rapid feed lab feedback groups. You talk to the software engineer, they're like, there's no way in hell we're look at the data. There's we we once we productionize this, that's done. My CICD process should take care of that. So it's a little bit of, like, that education and coaching, and, like, that's why these the term evals is becoming really popular among software developers, but a data scientist is gonna be like, welcome to the club, man. This is something we can bring for for years, and now everyone's all about evals. But this is the same thing. And so I feel like we're just layering on the the age old concept of data science, but educating developers globally about how to do it how to do that in a faster way as they're building these systems, because the ability to build these systems has become much, much faster because of tools like Rue AI.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-106","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":107,"time":"39:26","seconds":2366,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"I I just think the feedback loop piece, Conor, of going from identifying failure modes when you're trying to do some kind of even the minimal scale testing, because as soon as you put something out there, the age old thing in data science is, as soon as you put something out there in production, out of distribution starts on day zero. New kinds of queries start coming in, new failure modes are detected, and then you have to kind of fix it. So I think where this industry has to move very quickly is how do you start to identify those failure modes quickly and then auto","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-107","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":108,"time":"39:56","seconds":2396,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"correct the prompt or the tool call and all this other stuff, which is honestly all software engineering? How do you auto improve that? And that's the piece which is different than where what we had before, where in circa machine learning world one point o, you had to go and contact, like, name your labeling as provider, get the data there, train, retrain your model with it. It used to take three months. Here, I think that it can it's it's possible for us to just quickly have those feedback loops come in. I I think that's gonna start happening sooner, but that's gonna be the big unlock for people to feel like, I can actually rely on this thing because my feedback loop automation system is just working fine. And that's that's the that's where Galileo's goal is as well going forward. It's not about magic metrics. It's more about automatic feedback loop creation.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-108","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":109,"time":"40:40","seconds":2440,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So as everyone in this market continues to build more agents and, you know, work with crew to build out new agents with low code or expand upon their CICD processes with, automated evals, There is just a massive amount of work that needs to get done. And a lot of that we expect to be done by these agents. But it also means we are on the cusp of a major transformation. In fact, we're already","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-109","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":110,"time":"41:10","seconds":2470,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"transformation. Joe, you brought this up earlier, but even established enterprise companies are are kinda freaking out. They're trying to figure out their play in the agent space. And the adoption curve of this technology is so fast compared to some other previous waves. What does this mean for innovation in the next I I don't even wanna say beyond the next year, let's say through the next year, like, does the things look like? Because I I think they're adapting so fast. And in particular,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-110","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":111,"time":"41:39","seconds":2499,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I'd be really curious, Joe, if you wanted to share a bit with us about kind of Cruise approach and strategy for this next stage of the company and this next stage of the agentic revolution. And then Viktor might be curious on on kind of where you see Galileo","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-111","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":112,"time":"41:54","seconds":2514,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"fitting in with that as well.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-112","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":113,"time":"41:55","seconds":2515,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"I think, I think, yeah, you you bring a a a good point. I think it's very clear that this is gonna be a a massive industry. I mean, the potential is there. It's not me and Jensen saying it is again, it's all the signals that's out there. Right? There's people getting out out there. You go into anyone's website, these agents all over it. Like everyone's trying to capture some of that attention.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-113","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":114,"time":"42:18","seconds":2538,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"That contributes to some of like the agent washing that is happening where people are just like calling the agents that they're not, and that makes like everyone that is not educated yet, life's harder, so they need to grasp some of that information. But I mean, this is changing the industry. One example that we are feeling, I mean, we because of the open source,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-114","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":115,"time":"42:39","seconds":2559,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"we get a lot of traction into our website. Right? And now going from, like, nothing to number 14 and growing, ChatGPT is the fourteenth biggest source of traffic and growing. Like, people are not even they're not searching on Google. They're chatting and getting a link from CrewAI and jumping to our website. So, like, what that means. Right? And then, again, as as these models got better and better, if you really think about it, like, hey. You have an agent that is doing a planning, like, for a feature, and then you have agents that are coding it. Well, what happens to Jira in that way? Like, why you need cards? Right? Like, again, I'm I'm, like, extrapolating","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-115","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":116,"time":"43:20","seconds":2600,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"here to extremes, but you can see how, like, some of these automations and these processes, they have, like, a very heavy impact on kinda, like, what what business used to be and how business have been run. So I I think from from our point of view, one, it's a race to bottom in terms of models' prices. Models' qualities keep getting better and better. It feels like whenever it feels like we're hitting a ceiling, someone comes up with a breakthrough in one way or another.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-116","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":117,"time":"43:50","seconds":2630,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"Right now, like, I'm CrewAI is building to the future. Like, we're building features that said, like, people might look at it as like, this is not gonna work. Well, it might not work today. It was gonna work two months from now. So we're very much bidding for the future, a little bit until, like, on the cutting cutting edge, until, how those things are gonna go. And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-117","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":118,"time":"44:11","seconds":2651,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"I think that's a little bit on overall the vision that we're seeing in the market. And the potential is right there. I think this is a unique time window for companies that are operating in the industry, given how hot the market is. And what that means for crew is land grab. It's like literally closing as many customers as we can and help them to get to success.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-118","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":119,"time":"44:35","seconds":2675,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"So a lot of what we're doing is is helping these customers getting this use case out there and see the value and step up. And education plays a huge role in that, and that's why we do so much content and courses and things like that. So I I would say that's, like, part of our strategy. What is some of our culture is just, like, holding no punches and making sure that we are, like, putting ourselves out there and, like, shipping as fast as we can.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-119","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":120,"time":"45:00","seconds":2700,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Love it. Vikram, I see you nodding along to a lot of this. I I know that resonates with you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-120","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":121,"time":"45:07","seconds":2707,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It does. It definitely does.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-121","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":122,"time":"45:07","seconds":2707,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"I agree that we are in a very unique time and place right now, and I think the, the responsibility like, it seems like like, you know, all of, like, true AI is doing a very specific thing, which is extremely crucial for the foundation of agentic development. Right? And our Galileo's goal for the last four years has been to solve the measurement problem in AI, specifically unstructured data AI. Companies started, like, twenty months before the GPT moment even happened. So we've been dreaming about this moment, like, around where language models can actually be used by developers because it unlocks so much.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-122","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":123,"time":"45:40","seconds":2740,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"However, our the the push and pull, I think, tends to be that how much should you build for what customers here and now or developers here and now are asking for versus also looking at where the puck is going and start to build for that. Our thesis has always been, like, it has to be, like, a sixty forty. And so, you know, from a reliability standpoint, it's we we see this world going in this direction where it's gonna be moving from","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-123","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":124,"time":"46:04","seconds":2764,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"magic metrics towards insights. It's gonna be moving from, you know, like building out test driven development towards actual automatic feedback loops from production. And, you know, having scale is gonna be really important. And people aren't talking about that enough, I think, on the reliability side. It's very much on offline evals. It's, you know, here's a playground, here are some metrics,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-124","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":125,"time":"46:27","seconds":2787,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"drive five different models, they'll work. But very quickly, you're gonna have, like to Joe's point before, you're gonna have a 100 different agents, talking to each other. That's one final form of load testing and scale testing that's gonna start to happen. You're gonna have millions of different, tasks that need to be completed all the time from all of your users. How do you scale reliability and how do you scale these tests to that extent becomes extremely important, and what is how do you control that kind of an ecosystem and sleep at night knowing that your brand is gonna is going to be safe, knowing that your users are gonna be safe? So that those are the things that we've been we talk about all the time at Galileo, that's why we launched our Luna two, a family","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-125","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":126,"time":"47:07","seconds":2827,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"of of models of a lot of research, which is specifically focused on agentic evaluations, as well as our insights engine instead of the metrics engine, we can automatically give developers the failure modes before they even know that that's a problem, as well as automatically tell them what to do next. Right? And the next step from here is do it for them. So it's that's the phased approach that we see, and we I feel like it's not even an if question, it's a when question, and that's why we invest so much in AI research and infrastructure and not just a software stack reliability,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-126","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":127,"time":"47:38","seconds":2858,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"but that's the future that we see coming coming through for developers, and I feel like we all have our part to play in pushing the envelope so that the this reality of multi agentic systems can happen much, much faster than otherwise could have. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-127","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":128,"time":"47:49","seconds":2869,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I love that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-128","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":129,"time":"47:52","seconds":2872,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Well said by you both. It's such an exciting time and such an exciting space to be in. And I'll say personally, I am incredibly stoked to have crew as someone that we're doing a lot of work with, whether it's our agent next event series where Joe, it's so excited to have you be a part of that. When this episode comes out, it'll actually be tonight, and then we'll have more to come after that, whether it's, you know, our our planned webinars,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-129","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":130,"time":"48:17","seconds":2897,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"the the integration work we're doing, the content, you know, having you on this podcast. It's just such an honor to have you involved with the work that we're doing here at Galileo, and we are, I think, just as excited as you about the potential as industry and, you know, the work we can do together in the coming months. So, Joe, thank you so much for joining, Vikram and I, to share your perspective on Chain of Thought today. You called it at the top of this episode. We really need at least another hour or two for this conversation, so can't can't appreciate you enough for joining us.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-130","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":131,"time":"48:43","seconds":2923,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"Yeah. I love that. Thank you so much for having me. This is very exciting. And, yeah, I mean, excited for what we'll be cooking together.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-131","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":132,"time":"48:49","seconds":2929,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-132","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":133,"time":"48:51","seconds":2931,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and definitely go check out Crew AI if you haven't listeners. Crewai.com is the place for everything. You can find so much there. And and Joe has so much interesting content he shares on his his Twitter account, on his LinkedIn, and all over the Internet. They are doing some incredible stuff. Really interesting use cases you can find, fascinating blogs, technical depth. Definitely","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-133","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":134,"time":"49:12","seconds":2952,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"keep an eye on them. And if you're you're looking to build agents, check out CrewAI. They are fantastic. To everyone listening at home, be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and check out the Galileo YouTube channel for more content like maybe a weapon Earth CrewAI coming soon. Events, deep dives, and of course, every episode of this podcast where you can watch us interact with all of our incredible guests like Joe. Joe, again, thank you so much. Been a pleasure having you on.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-134","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura","episode":29,"guid":"e4415c0b-2b6f-4241-8d68-2f196a6e98b7","episodeTitle":"The Emerging AI Agent Stack | CrewAI’s João Moura","publishedAt":"2025-06-25","segmentIndex":135,"time":"49:37","seconds":2977,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Thank you. Have a good one. Thanks, Joe. Thank you. See you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/29-the-emerging-ai-agent-stack-crewais-jo-o-moura/#t-135","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:05","seconds":5,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Welcome to Chain of Thought, the podcast for developers and leaders navigating the AI revolution. We are broadcasting live today from AMD's Advancing AI twenty twenty five event here in San Jose. There's a palpable energy in the air for improving AI developer experience for an open AI ecosystem. I am your host, Conor Bronsdon, Head of Developer Awareness at Galileo, and we have a very special guest joining us today. In fact, we have a second special guest as well, but I'll tease that later. Directly from the heart of the action, Anush Elangovan,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:34","seconds":34,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"VP of AI Software at AMD. Anush is at the forefront of building the software ecosystem to power the next generation of AI applications on AMD hardware. We're delighted to have him here today. Anush, thank you for making the time to sit down with us, and thanks for joining us here on Chain of Thought.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":2,"time":"0:48","seconds":48,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"Thank you for having me. I'm super excited to be here and talk about all what we announced today, the AMI three fifty's and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":3,"time":"0:56","seconds":56,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"the hardware innovation and the software innovation that goes with it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":4,"time":"0:58","seconds":58,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"For folks who are actually watching on YouTube, I am like so excited about this because we just came off this incredible keynote with Anuj, Lisa Hsu, Sam Altman at OpenAI, so many folks coming and sharing the incredible announcements that AMD has, some of the incredible partnerships that they're going after, and some of the amazing investments they're making into infrastructure.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":5,"time":"1:21","seconds":81,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"As AMD has transitioned from being not just a hardware company, but one that is shipping software all the time, there is so much going on and you and the team here at AMD are right in the middle of it all. So let's just dive directly in. Let's talk about scaling. Let's talk about performance. Let's talk about those new chips. AMD has made major announcements across the board, as you said.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":6,"time":"1:43","seconds":103,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"The new MI three fifty GPU series with incredible performance, continued customer momentum, and so much more, such as the developer cloud, new Rocum seven, all of which is extended and aligned within a core vision of an open developer ecosystem.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":7,"time":"2:00","seconds":120,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"What is the single takeaway that you want developers and leaders to have coming out of this event?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":8,"time":"2:04","seconds":124,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"The speed and innovation with an open ecosystem is unmatched by any proprietary closed system. And it's not one vendor trying to sell you what they have to move AI forward. Here everyone is welcome, both at the hardware layer, networking layer, CPUs, GPUs, and in the software layer, right, and we partner with everyone","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":9,"time":"2:25","seconds":145,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"to make sure that overall there's a good experience for the end customer, you know, deploying AI.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":10,"time":"2:30","seconds":150,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I love that idea of open partnerships because we've seen open source win in so many cases, whether it's pre AI and we're seeing a lot of success within AI obviously as well. But powering all of that is the hardware layer. And that's what AMD is probably best known for.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":11,"time":"2:48","seconds":168,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"The MI350 GPU series that was announced today represents a significant leap of up to 20 FP4 performance. Can you walk us through what makes this new architecture fundamentally different and why developers should be considering","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":12,"time":"3:05","seconds":185,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"AMD hardware as their choice going forward?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":13,"time":"3:07","seconds":187,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"Yeah. So at the hardware level, there's, you know, the speeds and feeds, right? Like 20 petaflops of FP4 is mind blowing. Right? That's like you're talking petaflops. And there have been innovations at every layer, even in the hardware, at the microarchitecture level, at how they're brought together in the interconnects,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":14,"time":"3:28","seconds":208,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"way the system is put together, the chip is put together, power efficiencies across chips because we have a very unique chiplet architecture that's very good for, you know, distributed software system, right, so you can do Numa load balancing etc, and it's got power benefits built in because you could turn off chips that you don't use, you only power on what you need.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":15,"time":"3:52","seconds":232,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"And so the Mi three fifty really brings the cDNA four architecture into the forefront and that's it's like decades in the making, right, like it's an experience that has been built over the last few decades, but now it's come to a point where AMD is able to provide the cadence required to keep up with AI, right, so we want to be able to deliver hardware every year.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":16,"time":"4:20","seconds":260,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"So we did the MI 300, the MI three twenty five, now we have the three fifty series and like Lisa mentioned, the 400 series is right around the corner, that's less than twelve months. And executing on that hardware cadence is just, it's a machine that you need to have it well oiled and buttoned down, So I'm incredibly proud of what the hardware team has been able to pull off,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":17,"time":"4:46","seconds":286,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"in executing on that, hardware mission.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":18,"time":"4:48","seconds":288,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I think what's particularly exciting is to see AMD also start to have, you know, a biweekly software cadence that is extremely well oiled as well. We're going talk a lot more about that. But before we do, I want to ask about this cDNA four architecture and what makes it special and important","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":19,"time":"5:04","seconds":304,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"as it fuels AMD's advancements around GPUs.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":20,"time":"5:06","seconds":306,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"Yeah. So the cDNA four brings new data types that are key for AI workloads. We have FP4, we also have FP6 and one of the key innovations in the cDNA four architecture is that the FP6 throughput is as, it's almost, it's like an FP4 data type, so what that means is you can do FP4 or FP6, but it gives data scientists the ability to go from FP8","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":21,"time":"5:35","seconds":335,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"to FP6 as an intermediary before you go to FP4 and so you can move parts of your model, your training algorithms down to FP6 before you go to FP4. But you know FP4 is the future in terms of like where things are headed and I think the CDNA4 positions us really well in terms of supporting these advanced data types. And memory capacity and memory bandwidth these are two","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":22,"time":"6:05","seconds":365,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"cornerstones of AMD's portfolio and we continue to dominate in that area, right, both in the 300 series and three fifty series and then when we go to the 400 series, we have a very clear advantage over, you know, our competitors' roadmap. Getting to the three fifty series is at two eighty eight gigabytes, that's, you know, you're starting to get into like 500,000,000,000 parameter models that can run on one GPU,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":23,"time":"6:31","seconds":391,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"right? And then you have eight or you deploy at scale, you're getting to very large deployments and like Sam and others on stage had alluded to, we have deep partnerships with seven of the 10 top AI companies, and it's really exciting to see the generational investments that have been made now come to fruition where it just clicks and now we're like, we got that hardware.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":24,"time":"6:56","seconds":416,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"And obviously we'll talk about the software, which, you know, I'm super passionate about too.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":25,"time":"6:59","seconds":419,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, I do think it's interesting though to talk about this infrastructure investment as laying the groundwork for all the software innovation that is occurring. And I'll say like, I'm losing track of the numbers already. I know I need to have a better sense of them. But hearing, you know, Oracle be on stage with y'all and say, you know, Zeta scale, I'm kind of like, okay, wait, remind me what the heck is, like, what does, what does this mean for it? So, I guess my question would be, what do you think will happen with this next layer of infrastructure? What is it going to unlock","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":26,"time":"7:30","seconds":450,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"for developers that isn't possible today? Right.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":27,"time":"7:33","seconds":453,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"So I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":28,"time":"7:35","seconds":455,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"view AI very transformational. It's like electricity. When we first had electricity and the first transformers were put up on your street corners, people were like, oh, I don't know, what will you do with that? You just had your oil lamps and that you were thinking of replacing a bulb, but then you realize it's transformational because entire industries move to it and entire","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":29,"time":"8:00","seconds":480,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"workflows get automated or differentiated and humans can do something else, right? So to the point where even electric cars are just, it's recent, right? So the innovation with the investment in the infrastructure and the AI impact will take, and it'll be a few generations before you know the entire impact of what all it could affect, but we should view it as transformational as electricity.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":30,"time":"8:32","seconds":512,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And part of what's going to be fueling everyone to build upon this transformational layer of new architectures, new GPUs, massive scale, is going to be ROCCM7. It's going to be AMD's Developer Cloud. Two big announcements coming out of the conference today. And it clearly follows along this same route that AMD is charting themselves down, which is, Hey, we're going to be an open source focused company. We're going to ship regularly and we're going to engage developers around the world to help improve and speed up our innovation.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":31,"time":"9:06","seconds":546,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"What does DayZero support for leading models like LAMA4, GPT, DeepSeek,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":32,"time":"9:11","seconds":551,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and others. How does that change the developer experience for this open source layer for this AMD developer cloud?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":33,"time":"9:17","seconds":557,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"Yep. Yep. That's a very good question. The way I look at it is, you know, even a few years ago, Rokum support always was like a port two platform, like someone would launch a model and then you go in and you try to make it and someone's like fixing it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":34,"time":"9:33","seconds":573,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"All the models that were launched this year and last year, all the Frontier models, Deepsea, Llamas, Quen's, all of them, day zero, it's fully supported natively as much as it is on the competitor platform. What this means for the developers that they can rest assured that they can work with their developer flows on the latest models. What it means for customers is that they're not left behind in the AI revolution,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":35,"time":"9:58","seconds":598,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"AMD's invested, the customers are invested, the developers are invested, the model builders are invested. And so one of the pieces of what we didn't have good coverage on was cloud access to AMD GPUs, which is why we launched the AMD Developer Cloud, and it's really really very easy to just use your GitHub ID, you get in, spin up an instance, and we even have twenty five hours of free credits for anyone attending AI,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":36,"time":"10:32","seconds":632,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"and if you don't have it there's a little request credits, so we will give it to you, if not tag me on X and I'll make sure you get some credits, but it's also gives you a good life cycle of trying it out, getting familiar, and then you can even deploy it there, right? It's a real instance. So we just wanted to make it we wanna make ROCCM","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":37,"time":"11:02","seconds":662,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"be available everywhere and for everyone.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":38,"time":"11:04","seconds":664,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Speaking of X, it was interesting to hear from XAI on stage earlier during the keynote as well, and about how AMD is helping fuel everything happening with Grok and so many of these other incredible companies we've mentioned already. They'll say, if you're someone at XAI, you want to come on the show, you let us know.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":39,"time":"11:22","seconds":682,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"What does it take to shift the culture of a legendary hardware company like AMD from, Hey, we're only fueling this hardware layer to now, I mean, across the board, everything from hardware through the software layer. There's, there's so much going on. It gets extremely complicated. It's very different shipping schedules, very different concerns. Some are more high consequence. Some are more less consequence, depending on where things are being created.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":40,"time":"11:49","seconds":709,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"What what did it meant to make that cultural shift?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":41,"time":"11:52","seconds":712,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"The way I look at it is, there there were two things. One, you know, when AMD was acquiring Nord dot ai, which is how I came to AMD, Lisa called me to the side and said, Anush, think of it as Nod as acquiring AMD, not AMD as acquiring Nod, and to this day, you know, the principles of how I ran the startup for ten years is how I'm doing it at AMD and it is resonating with developers, we're moving fast and, you","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":42,"time":"12:21","seconds":741,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"know, to work hand in hand with like the xAI folks, we, you know, I'd seen that deployment from like go till live and we worked really fast, really quick and the deliveries were like instantaneous and a lot of that software delivery mechanisms I'd built in Chrome and Chrome OS when I was working in the Chrome OS team in the early days of Chrome OS from 2010 to 2013.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":43,"time":"12:53","seconds":773,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"That's when we were like, hey, Mainland has to be shippable, you ship every night, weekly you make some updates to it, you test, and your quality bar increases as you deploy in scale, and then you get to the GA candidates. It's not the other way around where your waterfall, you're tied up in. So it's very interesting to kind of like move the culture from one to the other, but then once you get to the other side it's fast moving and everything is data driven, right? It's, oh, that thing failed, that thing, you pull that out, ship the rest, right?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":44,"time":"13:33","seconds":813,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"So it becomes very responsive and the way I think of how AMD is looking at software now is software as a product, right. Until now it was like oh, MI 200, MI 300 is a product and then it came from the lineage of BSPs, like hey here's a hardware piece, here's a software piece that goes with it, go do what you must with it. But now we're thinking of it as like ROCCM and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":45,"time":"13:59","seconds":839,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"the other piece that we launched today was the ROCCM Enterprise AI, which is ROCCM seven, we got ROCCM Enterprise AI on top, we can do cluster management capabilities, it's got ML operations capabilities, and then you got vertical integrations into verticals like health sciences, etc. And putting all of them together, in the end, if you don't give a solution for the customer, it doesn't really matter. You're you're building some parts of the puzzle and it doesn't matter. So now we're taking a holistic view that covers the entire stack and we want to bring AI to the footsteps of the end user.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":46,"time":"14:31","seconds":871,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And part of that strategy is an intentionally open approach.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":47,"time":"14:37","seconds":877,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Building on open standards, OCP design, ultra Ethernet, ultra accelerator link. What does this mean for AMD's vision of the future of AI to focus on open source so far?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":48,"time":"14:47","seconds":887,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"Yeah, so open source software is one, but also going to open source,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":49,"time":"14:53","seconds":893,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"open ecosystems is the next level up where we are not making an announcement saying, Hey, NVLIC a fusion, right, and it's like oh everything is open but the chips will be built by us and you can you know you can connect your thing in the periphery or something like that. When we say open we truly mean open and so we have chip companies that are building like switches,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":50,"time":"15:18","seconds":918,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"switch companies that are building NICs, unique companies that are building unique connector technologies, we want the innovation to happen at every layer of the stack. We're not trying to stifle that innovation in terms of increasing our bottom line for that particular case, but obviously everyone's in the thing to make money and everyone to be successful, but we wanted to be a holistic,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":51,"time":"15:44","seconds":944,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"open ecosystem approach rather than a like it's our way to move the industry forward and you have to follow our way or you're out of the system.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":52,"time":"15:55","seconds":955,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So if I'm a developer and I'm building with Rockem, can I then contribute to this open source repo and say, Hey, look, maybe this is gonna end up in something that you're actually building with AMD?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":53,"time":"16:06","seconds":966,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"Yep. A 100%. So one of the key things that we've done in the past few weeks is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":54,"time":"16:12","seconds":972,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"the internal source repositories and external source repositories are exactly the same. It is all external, right? And so what that means is, as an external developer, you can contribute any code changes you want and we actually take that seriously and merge it in. For example, we'd launched the Strix Halo laptop and our team was trying to get the Windows build of it ready, but then we had a couple external contributors","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":55,"time":"16:41","seconds":1001,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"contribute Triton on Windows, contribute PyTorch on Windows to the point where it accelerated our ability to like get PyTorch on Windows ready because of these external developers who just they just bought a Strix Halo laptop and I just want to do this and that's the power of open source. If we had if we had flipped the script, we'd be like, we got a plan for 10 engineers that are gonna sit in a corner and try to make this work, but here's one engineer half time, he's just like, oh, I just want Windows Triton to work and I'm gonna do whatever it takes and over the weekend he fixed all of that and we're like, great, now everyone's happy.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":56,"time":"17:14","seconds":1034,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Okay, what's your PR review process for this?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":57,"time":"17:17","seconds":1037,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"Very good question. So the PR,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":58,"time":"17:20","seconds":1040,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"so I do pull requests and press requests.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":59,"time":"17:25","seconds":1045,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"But","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":60,"time":"17:29","seconds":1049,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"wearing my engineer hat and reading it as a pull request, we're moving all of that review process externally, so every developer who's working on that area actually just reviews it. So it can be from an internal developer or an external developer, yeah, and so that gives us incredible velocity and we haven't even unlocked that potential yet, we're just like getting the foundational layers with the Rokum seven,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":61,"time":"17:54","seconds":1074,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"but once Rokum seven hits, you should see like Rokum eight, nine, 10 be like six weeks release cadence, It's like how Chrome, you don't care whether you're running Chrome 138, it's just Chrome, you get the best, you get the fastest and then Chrome 139","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":62,"time":"18:13","seconds":1093,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"something happens and it happens at night and you're like, great, I'll take that. Right? So we want to get ROCCM to that point.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":63,"time":"18:47","seconds":1127,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I love this comparison you made earlier and this, I guess advice, it sounds like Lisa Su gave you, saying, hey, look, we're not acquiring you. You're acquiring us. You need to bring your DNA here and change our company. And it's clear just from this discussion that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":64,"time":"18:47","seconds":1127,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"you've made such an impact on how AMD is thinking from a product velocity standpoint, from a philosophy standpoint. And something I've heard you say before is that software is a product that far outlives any single generation of hardware. Even the, I mean, because it evolves, right? Because, you know, Chrome is now whatever number it is. And that AMD needs a software plan for the next decade, not just a hardware plan.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":65,"time":"19:01","seconds":1141,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"How does this philosophy of software longevity shape your open ecosystem strategy with ROCCM and the other investments that you're making?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":66,"time":"19:09","seconds":1149,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"Yeah, very good question. So","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":67,"time":"19:13","seconds":1153,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"imagine you're building something for the next ten years or fifteen years, right? It the investment required for it, just to do it in a closed, like, hey, only we're going to do it, it'll be like funding the high speed rail in California, right? Nobody else can do it, only the government can do it, but what if we said, hey, you can build this part of the track, can build this, you can build this, as long as you know, the CICD,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":68,"time":"19:40","seconds":1180,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"the train can keep running safely, we're fine, you just keep building it as long as you want to go and you know, build it where you want to go. It really does unlock the ability to build at scale but build for longevity, right, because you want to have the platform far outlive generations of compute. So MI three fifty, yeah, it's the new hotness, two years, three years, four years down the road people will be like, yeah, MI 250 is like historic, that's fine,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":69,"time":"20:13","seconds":1213,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"but the infrastructure that you've built on it will continue to along, right, and yeah, it evolves and you want to make sure you got backwards compatibility, forwards compatibility. So people are investing in ROCCM as a product.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":70,"time":"20:29","seconds":1229,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I love this idea and this philosophy that you're bringing because I think it's so interesting to see how these different strategies are being approached by various companies in this new AI era,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":71,"time":"20:44","seconds":1244,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"where we're shipping faster, hardware does become historic faster, And we're all simply in the midst of this insane revolution. You mentioned electricity as an example. Folks compare it to the early internet. How are you going to foster this community led innovation that you see unlocking the next level of velocity and success","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":72,"time":"21:07","seconds":1267,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"for AMD around software?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":73,"time":"21:08","seconds":1268,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"Yeah, again, a very good question. The, you know, it kind of goes to how people say, Hey, the only, constant is change, right? But it's I would take it a step further and say and the rate of change too is going to continually improve.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-73","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":74,"time":"21:27","seconds":1287,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"It's not just that, Hey, it's going to change.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-74","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":75,"time":"21:28","seconds":1288,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"Course it's going to change. This Anusha is a lot. I know that important, you know. But my philosophical","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-75","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":76,"time":"21:36","seconds":1296,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"view is the rate of change is going to change too, and not the way you think it is it's going to accelerate. And being prepared to address that speed and the velocity in which you're going to be accelerating towards that, you want to be able to be prepared to maneuver and that maneuverability comes from an open ecosystem because you alone cannot drive that train that fast, you're","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-76","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":77,"time":"22:06","seconds":1326,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"gonna need everyone lifting all boats, right? So that that's how that that that's the general philosophy of how I think the tip of the spheres should be.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-77","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":78,"time":"22:17","seconds":1337,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-78","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":79,"time":"22:18","seconds":1338,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I think if you talk to anyone in the AI space today, we'll at least mention agents like I'm now going to force in here. Because we all see it as a huge part of what that future looks like, at least for the next couple of years, right? There may be a paradigm change. There may be a change in how we interface with these AI tools. But for now, agents are what everyone is starting to build and or is already building. And we're building multi agent architectures.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-79","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":80,"time":"22:43","seconds":1363,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"We're building massive groups of agents that, you know, solve problems together and can do cohesive tasks and solve strategic challenges for businesses. So, being able to address and improve and align to this agentic future is really important for most AI companies today. So of course it was part of AMD's keynote earlier. Your benchmarks now show that there's a 3.8x","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-80","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":81,"time":"23:08","seconds":1388,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"generational improvement for AI agents and up to a 4.2x improvement for summarization tasks when leveraging AMD infrastructure. How are you achieving those gains? And what does this mean for the performance for the performance per dollar that AMD is looking to deliver for customers and partners?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-81","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":82,"time":"23:27","seconds":1407,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"Yeah. I I think let's start with the performance per dollar, right? Like,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-82","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":83,"time":"23:32","seconds":1412,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"with the three fifty series against the competitors' latest Blackwall platform, you're looking at a 40% tokens per dollar savings, right? 40%. That is just huge, and and 40% adds up pretty quickly when you're doing $250,000,000 tokens a day or a billion tokens a day, that translates to significant savings and then that can be backed by anything, it can be on prem deployments, can be CSP deployments.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-83","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":84,"time":"24:02","seconds":1442,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"But coming back to your question on agentic future, I think the agentic way of framing the problem is more about us understanding it in a way because an agent is like autonomous in some way, it's a way of doing something, but if peel all of that back it's how you're building intelligent autonomous systems that could take the form of physical robots, it could take the form of virtual robots, which is the agents, and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-84","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":85,"time":"24:38","seconds":1478,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"we're starting to see that future where you know, you don't want to be sitting on kayak and clicking you know plus minus three days, tell the GPU operator to go do it or the agent to be watching kayak through your MCP server and say hey whenever it goes down this, do this, right? And then add a natural translation layer, a voice translation layer and you're just interacting with","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-85","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":86,"time":"25:04","seconds":1504,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"this agent and then once it embodies itself into the physical thing with the robot then it starts blurring the line of like what exactly is this agent, right? And so it's an exciting future, but what all of that come down to is immense compute infrastructure that AMD is investing in significantly right now, and the immense software infrastructure required on top of it, which is also something that we're,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-86","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":87,"time":"25:35","seconds":1535,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"you know, doubling down on.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-87","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":88,"time":"25:36","seconds":1536,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I wish we had time for another hour of this conversation because you've shared so many great insights and there's a lot of exciting things happening with AMD. But I think we have a perfect question to close on here, given what you just said about enabling software and infrastructure investments. AMD announced today landmark $10,000,000,000 agreement with Humane, Saudi Arabia's new AI enterprise, to deploy 500 megawatts of AI compute capacity over five years, spanning from Saudi Arabia to The United States.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-88","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":89,"time":"26:08","seconds":1568,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"How does this fit into AMD's sovereign AI strategy? And what does building, as I believe was said on stage, the world's most open AI infrastructure mean in practical terms for global AI development and deployment,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-89","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":90,"time":"26:23","seconds":1583,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"especially aligning to these deep open infrastructure investments that we've been talking about?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-90","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":91,"time":"26:27","seconds":1587,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"Yeah. So I think the philosophy of like the deep open infrastructure investments are we actually are bringing a consortium of innovators and companies that have the ability to execute on different parts of the stack, but then we validate everything together to make sure that you do have the ability to execute the end vision of what it is that you're trying to stand up, right?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-91","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":92,"time":"26:54","seconds":1614,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"And then the investment shows a long range plan, right, like because you're not just saying, hey I'm just buying some GPUs, it's you're investing in infrastructure and infrastructure build out takes time and infrastructure build out affects people's lives, right. Similar going back to the electricity investments, you know, do we do AC transmission lines or DC transmission lines? Yes, the first twenty years,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-92","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":93,"time":"27:19","seconds":1639,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"it took like 10% of the GDP to put up all the transmission lines.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-93","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":94,"time":"27:22","seconds":1642,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Well, new electricity investments we have to make for this AI infrastructure for that Yes, that too.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-94","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":95,"time":"27:25","seconds":1645,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"Yeah, now it goes back. It's a full circle. It's like, oh, I got to go back to my original thesis of like, how am I going to generate this power?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-95","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":96,"time":"27:33","seconds":1653,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Maybe we do need whale oil lamps after all.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-96","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":97,"time":"27:36","seconds":1656,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"Well, I'm sure, you know,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-97","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":98,"time":"27:39","seconds":1659,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"we push human creativity in terms of like solving problems, we do come through, and so you know when we see the value that AI unlocks and we know that we need more of it and if power is what we need to you know figure out new ways to do it, it'll be new geothermal, new power, new you know whatever the way we're going to go push the envelope and find that power, we will. And then,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-98","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":99,"time":"28:06","seconds":1686,"speaker":"Anush Elangovan","text":"you know, tie it into forward progress with, innovation in AI.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-99","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":100,"time":"28:09","seconds":1689,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Absolutely. It's a very exciting time. And Anush, I really appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule and taking time out of this incredible event to join us here on Chain of Thought. We appreciate you and the team at AMD giving us a look behind the curtain here at Advancing AI twenty twenty five and sharing your vision for the future. Thank you for tuning into this special episode of Chain of Thought. We'll have more for you very soon. You may hear it in a couple minutes after this interview wraps. Anush, thanks again, and thank you for hosting us at Advancing AI. We're","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-100","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":101,"time":"28:38","seconds":1718,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"broadcasting live again from AMD's Advancing AI twenty twenty five event, where there is so much energy about improving the experience for developers with AI and about the open ecosystem. I am your host, Conor Bronsdon, Head of Developer Awareness at Galileo. We have a very special guest joining us today. It was a fun surprise for us, actually. Directly from the heart of the action, we have Sharon Zhou. Sharon is the former CEO and co founder of Alumni","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-101","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":102,"time":"29:03","seconds":1743,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and now vice president of artificial intelligence at AMD. Thank you so much for joining us on Chain of Thoughts, Sharon.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-102","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":103,"time":"29:08","seconds":1748,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"Thanks so much for having me.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-103","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":104,"time":"29:10","seconds":1750,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It was so cool seeing you come out during the keynote earlier. I was like, wait a second, like, I'm pretty sure I follow you on LinkedIn. And I know the AMD team is particularly excited to have you joining, and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-104","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":105,"time":"29:22","seconds":1762,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"the knowledge that you bring from teaching over a million people about AI is so important to the DNA of a company like AMD that is going so deep into the open source ecosystem, so deep into what is going to be a lot of education, engagement, community work. What are you going to focus on as you dive deeper into your time here at AMD?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-105","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":106,"time":"29:45","seconds":1785,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"Yeah, so it's a combination of AI research and teaching,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-106","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":107,"time":"29:50","seconds":1790,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"which is kind of what we were doing at Lam and I as well. I think the thing I'm really excited about on the teaching front is making, you know, Rock'em and all the software that we've been building at AMD much more available and accessible to developers. Yeah. And I think that's going to be a combination of showing, hey, all the latest AI stuff, whether it be vibe coding agents or reinforcement learning, all of that runs on AMD just fine. And not just fine, it maybe is optimized on it, right? So I'm really excited to show show that and do that with some of the biggest names that we've been working with already, like Andrew Ng at Deep Learning AI.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-107","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":108,"time":"30:27","seconds":1827,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. If you have not had an opportunity to hear about what AMD is up to with deep learning and what sharing is up to with deep learning, There's a lot more to come there and maybe Phil tease a bit of that here. We'll see. But if nothing else, this focus on teaching and on research and on understanding developers and other AI builders, data scientists and what they need, it is so important to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-108","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":109,"time":"30:51","seconds":1851,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"fueling this increased product development velocity that this intentional open source strategy AMD is taking is meant to fuel. As Anuj shared with me in an earlier conversation, you know, we have developers who are already contributing to the repos that are driving AMD's Rock'n Forward. What does this mean to actually enable the community though, and make it easy for them to contribute,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-109","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":110,"time":"31:16","seconds":1876,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"have them feel a desire to do so, and to see it pay off for AMD's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-110","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":111,"time":"31:23","seconds":1883,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"actual product. Right.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-111","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":112,"time":"31:24","seconds":1884,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"I mean, I think the first step is listening. First listening to the community and hearing what they want, and then, helping also on the other side, building out what we call a happy path or kind of a, these are the three steps to succeed on AMD so that people can see that success or moment really quickly. And I think that's really important, right, to be able to see something working immediately in AI. I actually think","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-112","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":113,"time":"31:49","seconds":1909,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"attention spans have gone down quite a bit with AI. I think we just want a prompt. I think my Cursor prompt is literally the minimum number of tokens is like a question mark. And I just, know, that's it. A question mark. I got to do that Yeah, exactly. So I think, you know, we're a little bit less less patient on that. So, being able to show the, roll roll out the red carpet or show the yellow brick road to follow,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-113","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":114,"time":"32:14","seconds":1934,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"I think that's really critical. Yeah. So, that's what we 'll doing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-114","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":115,"time":"32:16","seconds":1936,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Moment to wow is so important because it's Yeah. It's really easy. I know I've been guilty of this. I'm sure everyone listening has been, where you go, oh, this product sounds cool. Let me go try it out. And like, oh, I don't actually want to spend thirty minutes setting this up. I just need to try it. I need to get going. And you jump off and do something else and you maybe forget about it. You maybe pick a competitor that's easier to, to jump into.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-115","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":116,"time":"32:38","seconds":1958,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And so, love that you're starting with listening and with, I mean, qualitative research into what your users, what developers who are building on AI actually want. How will you approach that listening tour?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-116","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":117,"time":"32:52","seconds":1972,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"Oh, so many different ways. I think there's so many different formats to listen. One is, through talks. I had given over 50 keynotes last year through Lammini. Yes. So I think talks actually afford the ability to then, as you get off stage talking to people, people reacting to what you have to say, asking clarifying questions. I think teaching very much gives that dialogue, that opportunity to have that dialogue as well. So these are kind of the different avenues.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-117","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":118,"time":"33:21","seconds":2001,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"And of course, through the repositories, can open up issues, etcetera. But what we're really focused on is almost the framework of pre believers versus pre buyers. So, you know, first you have top of the funnel pre believers, people who don't yet believe, and getting them to become a believer. And then once they're a believer, can become a pre buyer, give you a shot, and become a buyer, become a customer. So really focus on the pre believers and listening to them, hearing what will it take for them to have that bit flip switch and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-118","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":119,"time":"33:51","seconds":2031,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"just say, I'm going to give this a shot because this will make a very big difference to my business, my workflow, whatever it may be. And something I'm really excited about is that AMD is very actually differentiated in the market, not only from the open standpoint, right? So, engaging with the open source community enables this whole new strategy of accelerating","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-119","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":120,"time":"34:11","seconds":2051,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"their ability to catch up, but also having a different heterogeneous compute fabric between GPU and CPU. And as we build out more tools, for example, a lot of people are using agents these days. These agents, right, they are LLM calls. They run on GPU. But the tools they use through MCP model context protocols, for example, many of the tools they use are actually running on CPU. So how do we actually balance those loads effectively","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-120","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":121,"time":"34:40","seconds":2080,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"moving forward? And I think AMD is in a really interesting position to balance that effectively because they own and can do a lot of the integration work between","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-121","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":122,"time":"34:50","seconds":2090,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"those types of compute. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-122","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":123,"time":"34:52","seconds":2092,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"That vertical integration opportunity is so interesting and it's such a unique perspective to have in the space. I'm curious to see how the open source contribution side of things factors into this integration with GPUs and CPUs and the customization offered there. Are you already seeing the benefits of opening up the AMD software stack","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-123","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":124,"time":"35:15","seconds":2115,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"to the open source community and developers around the world?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-124","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":125,"time":"35:17","seconds":2117,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"I mean, a 100%. You know, first, first things first, from the course perspective, this makes it a lot easier for people to even learn or even show a demonstration of how are you gonna even learn GPU programming. If there's nothing open to look at, you're you're kind of, like, touching around a black box and not really learning what's going on. So even just understanding what's going on inside of it and getting people curious about this technology, I think I think that is that is number one. That's something that's on my mind at least. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-125","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":126,"time":"35:47","seconds":2147,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Let's dive in there a bit more. I'd love to understand your thought process or strategy around how do you drive that curiosity? How do you enable that curiosity? And as you brought up earlier, how do you lay out that yellow brick road for them so they can learn and build their first agents?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-126","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":127,"time":"36:03","seconds":2163,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"Yeah. No, I mean, I think it comes from understanding what trends there are today in terms of what developers are building, but also what trends that those will evolve into, like what workloads realistically those will evolve into, and then kind of matching those with internally where we've been able to shine as AMD, right, from the hardware and software perspective. So right now, there's a lot of focus on inference","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-127","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":128,"time":"36:29","seconds":2189,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"and being able to actually make that workload really effective and reliable and efficient. And so how do we actually engage developers on that specifically today? It's more ready than training right now. So how do we engage them on that where they will succeed, be more likely to succeed, and go from there? It doesn't have to be boiling the whole ocean all at once, but finding where you're going to see that moment, that wow moment","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-128","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":129,"time":"36:54","seconds":2214,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"soonest.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-129","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":130,"time":"36:55","seconds":2215,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And do you have a thought process so far on kind of the key areas to drive that moment? Or are you still feeling fairly nascent in your research there?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-130","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":131,"time":"37:07","seconds":2227,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"Yeah. So, I have a few different thoughts around what will help drive it. But I think right now, it's a combination of the three different audiences that we're looking into. One is AI developers. That's probably number one. The second is AI researchers. AI researchers are helpful because they're a little bit lower level and more willing to try something experimental.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-131","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":132,"time":"37:31","seconds":2251,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"So, that's where we're touching training workloads, for example. And then the third is what I call AI leaders. But anyone who's kind of thinking about it, maybe it's someone within an enterprise leading AI, how are they thinking about their infrastructure, budget, costs, etcetera? So these are the three audiences that I really think about, these personas that I really think about how do we serve them? Because ultimately,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-132","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":133,"time":"37:55","seconds":2275,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"they're going to be the ones making decisions on compute. And they're going to be making decisions on, at every single layer that will impact what kind of compute should be built to serve them.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-133","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":134,"time":"38:05","seconds":2285,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"What does differentiated teaching and learning about AMD's open infrastructure, open software ecosystem look like for those different audiences?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-134","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":135,"time":"38:14","seconds":2294,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"Yeah. So, the developer one is very easy to talk about because we're already working with Andrew and his team. We already have been over the past year. In fact, at Lam and I, we were running on over 300 AMD GPUs, and we're actually serving multiple courses, three of them with Andrew and one of them in partnership with Meta, that were being served up with those GPUs. And that was both inference and training, actually. So, that's been really cool to see, and that's tens of thousands of developers","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-135","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":136,"time":"38:47","seconds":2327,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"already hitting AMD GPUs over the past year. So, that's been really exciting to see. So, it's doing more of that with the things that are new today, probably around agents, probably around that, you know, maybe MCP like thing. Totally. The second audience around researchers, it's engaging largely with the different labs, whether they be commercial or university,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-136","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":137,"time":"39:09","seconds":2349,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"to be able to start testing maybe new hardware, etcetera, and starting to run their more nascent workloads there, or even their experimental ones, maybe a new model architecture, for example. I'd like to see, for example, a new model architecture be invented on AMD. That would be really cool, and taking advantage of the benefits and the differences of AMD hardware, for example, larger HBM. Don't know. So that's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-137","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":138,"time":"39:36","seconds":2376,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"another thing. And then for AI leaders, been working with Lam and I, for B2B Enterprise. So we talked to a lot of Fortune 500 executives. And as a result, we have a lot of those relationships. We have a lot of relationships with SIs that are kind of in between. We have relationships with different platforms there. And so I can't speak to some of the brands there yet, but they're big and we're working with them as well.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-138","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":139,"time":"40:02","seconds":2402,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Sounds like the base advice though for developers go to deeplearning.ai","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-139","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":140,"time":"40:07","seconds":2407,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and check out these courses with AMD.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-140","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":141,"time":"40:08","seconds":2408,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"That is that is, that is the base lesson. Okay.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-141","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":142,"time":"40:11","seconds":2411,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"That's a good base lesson. You mentioned MCP and it's obviously kind of the new hotness, right? Anthropic released it to not a lot of fanfare, No, end of last not in the beginning.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-142","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":143,"time":"40:23","seconds":2423,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"No.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-143","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":144,"time":"40:23","seconds":2423,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"But by March, April, we really started to see this momentum. Yeah. And, you know, now mid June, it feels like it's on everyone's lips. Do you think MCP is going to win out as one of the frameworks of choice in the next year or two?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-144","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":145,"time":"40:35","seconds":2435,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"So, one, I think it's really, really important to highlight MCP as an open protocol,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-145","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":146,"time":"40:42","seconds":2442,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"and therefore, can be a standard. So, the benefit of open in general is that it can be a standard. When we had worked a lot with Meta at Lam and I, that was their big thing. They're like, This is so that we can actually set a standard for the community. So I think that's one thing that MCP has been able to show a glimmer of. And I think because it's taken off in the sense that the community was itching for a standard since things were so customized,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-146","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":147,"time":"41:09","seconds":2469,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"it did take off, and OpenAI also has endorsed it. And I think that's a really big deal with big model players endorsing it, it being open so that everyone can contribute to it and see into it. If there's only a closed option, you don't really feel like you can, one, be able to see into it at all. It feels locked inside of a certain company. And then I think the second thing is, I know developers were talking about like, well, this enables us to really customize it for different security needs, for","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-147","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":148,"time":"41:39","seconds":2499,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"that will emerge and change and evolve over time as AI continues,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-148","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":149,"time":"41:44","seconds":2504,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"to grow and evolve as well. So, I think it's really important that there is an open standard, and I think this is really good, really good first shot at one.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-149","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":150,"time":"41:51","seconds":2511,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I completely agree. It's going to be really exciting to see what one's out, but I agree it has to be an open standard to truly succeed. And to me, that speaks to this philosophy that AMD is taking of saying Exactly. We're going to be very open too, and we're going to align with these open opportunities.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-150","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":151,"time":"42:08","seconds":2528,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And it also speaks to the partnership development work that has happened. There are a lot of incredible partners that were on stage earlier today with these huge keynote announcements. You know, seven of the 10 largest AI companies in the world are are working with AMD. Yeah. And I'm curious if there's a particular partnership that you think aligns best to this philosophy of listening to developers,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-151","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":152,"time":"42:33","seconds":2553,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"enabling developers, and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-152","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":153,"time":"42:36","seconds":2556,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"moving forward together in an open standard?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-153","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":154,"time":"42:38","seconds":2558,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"That's such a good question. So, I think for the big Foundation Model Labs, that's largely the problem with the AI researcher persona. For the developer persona, I think it might be closer to some of the AI native startups out there and what they're building and how they're scaling things up. So, maybe they're not doing crazy pre training workloads, but they are doing substantial","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-154","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":155,"time":"43:01","seconds":2581,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"workloads that will eventually, I think, affect GDP quite substantially Totally, yeah. I think that'll be a really important set of folks who are building at the bleeding edge, and they define what the next trend is, too, of how to even use these models based on what's easy for them to build and what the needs are in the market. So, I think it's really critical to be listening to them and building for them there.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-155","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":156,"time":"43:26","seconds":2606,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And that's where I think that alignment with LAMA and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-156","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":157,"time":"43:29","seconds":2609,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Meta is really interesting as an opportunity. But there's so much more that was talked about. As you look towards 2026 and beyond, are the bottlenecks that we may experience while we're trying to build this incredible open infrastructure?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-157","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":158,"time":"43:42","seconds":2622,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"So, of the big challenges of building in the open is that, you know, when I said happy path, you want there to be a happy path, something prescriptive, so people are actually doing the thing that gets them to success versus frantically trying a bunch of things, just seeing documentation and getting a little intimidated and not knowing where to start even. And it might not even be up to date, etcetera. So it's just knowing what the right path is is really important. Now, the challenge of Open is that you're inviting the whole community to come contribute.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-158","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":159,"time":"44:11","seconds":2651,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"And as a result, you can create almost monstrosity of way too many features tacked on and trying to go in too many directions and not having one direction that's opinionated and correct. And I think that can be challenging for generally for Open. I think we've seen that with AI projects in particular because things can move very, very quickly in the space. So I think that's one of the challenges, candidly, and that will be one for us to monitor and to balance out with this idea of happy path and making sure we","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-159","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":160,"time":"44:36","seconds":2676,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"articulate that very well and kind of usher people towards that happy path or learn what the happy path should be and then usher people there. Totally.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-160","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":161,"time":"44:43","seconds":2683,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And Sharon, you've obviously been a big part of the AI research ecosystem for several years now.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-161","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":162,"time":"44:50","seconds":2690,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"You've been a big part of the open source ecosystem for several years now, and obviously teaching as well, which we've talked extensively about. Are there predictions that you have from your position as somebody who's embedded within the industry and also a thought leader for what the next year or two of AI development and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-162","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":163,"time":"45:09","seconds":2709,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"change will look like?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-163","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":164,"time":"45:10","seconds":2710,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"Yes. I've seen a lot of glimmers of this in very different ways. Some are research papers of showing, you know, a smarter model, maybe, you know, distilling it down to a smaller model, but teaching the other model things. At Lam and I, we really care about this mission of self improving AI, so getting these models to improve themselves, edit their own training data, and improve themselves.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-164","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":165,"time":"45:34","seconds":2734,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"So I think there's this growing trend of that process being more and more automated. So, getting these models to actually improve themselves over time and getting that flywheel out based on what direction or objective that we want them to go towards. So, I'm really excited about that, and I think that can happen at every layer of the stack. And with AMD, that could happen even at the lower layers, being able to optimize kernels, for example, being able to optimize all those different things to make the model itself more efficient and more efficiently use its own compute. I find that really, really exciting","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-165","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":166,"time":"46:06","seconds":2766,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"because I think that can take us to the next generation much more quickly than if we were just developing on our own with a limited number of AI researchers out in the world.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-166","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":167,"time":"46:15","seconds":2775,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I get excited about that idea of continuous","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-167","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":168,"time":"46:19","seconds":2779,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"learning loops and But self improvement I think it's also something that maybe makes some skeptics nervous and probably not a lot of them are listening to this podcast, but I know there are a couple. What would you say to the folks who hear, Hey, we're creating self learning AI that get nervous about that idea of like, Oh, we want human direction. What would you tell them?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-168","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":169,"time":"46:40","seconds":2800,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"Oh, I see. I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-169","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":170,"time":"46:44","seconds":2804,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"would say that I think as these models get better at listening to us and what we need, which we can already see, like the way you prompt a model can be more and more casual, right? The question mark works, for example, or yeah, something way more casual works before you couldn't misspell things actually. And you had to even before ChatGPT with just GPT-three, had to be like, question answer, question. You had to format it a certain way, but they're much more","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-170","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":171,"time":"47:08","seconds":2828,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"malleable now. And I think as long as we kind of keep that as a UX, the user experience, the interface, it provides this interesting opportunity to give what I like to call vibe space feedback. So not just vibe coding, can we like vibe tune, vibe train these models? But vibe based feedback so that we can actually give our natural language feedback and direction in a way where we know it's not as strict, in a way where it's much closer to how we teach each other different things or how we direct each other to different things as humans, but also to these models. So, I feel confident that we'll find a way to nudge those models in the right way, where it won't go off in flywheels. You can actually intercept it just like a person who's learning and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-171","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":172,"time":"47:49","seconds":2869,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"redirect it in a bit, and do so with that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-172","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":173,"time":"47:52","seconds":2872,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"prompt, with that natural language.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-173","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":174,"time":"47:53","seconds":2873,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I think your point about natural language is important to understand here because we need both qualitative and quantitative measures around this. And I love that you're thinking in both directions. Sharon, I wish we had more time. It's been so much fun chatting with you. And I know our listeners would would love to know where they can follow your work and continue to watch what you're up to in the AI space. Where can they follow you?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-174","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":175,"time":"48:17","seconds":2897,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"You can follow me on X or on LinkedIn, or tune into some of our courses with Andrew.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-175","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":176,"time":"48:22","seconds":2902,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Fantastic. Well, we will certainly link those in the description for the episode.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-176","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":177,"time":"48:26","seconds":2906,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Thank you so much for joining us.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-177","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":178,"time":"48:27","seconds":2907,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"Thank you so much.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-178","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":179,"time":"48:27","seconds":2907,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Thank you to AMD for having us once again. Sorry to cut you off. I apologize.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-179","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":180,"time":"48:30","seconds":2910,"speaker":"Sharon Zhou","text":"No, it's okay.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-180","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":181,"time":"48:31","seconds":2911,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It's been a ton of fun being here at AMD's Advancing AI twenty twenty five. We're excited to see what's next and to see this continued open source ecosystem develop. If you are a developer who's tuning in, we'd love to hear from you. What are the pieces of the ecosystem that you want to see more open? What do you want to contribute to? I know AMD would love to know. I know Sharon would love to know as she continues her listening tour. Yes. And, obviously we love hearing from our folks who","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-181","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou","episode":28,"guid":"4e25225b-b5a2-46a2-868f-825a5a6f74ab","episodeTitle":"AMD's Challenge to NVIDIA: The Open Ecosystem Bet | Anush Elangovan & Sharon Zhou","publishedAt":"2025-06-18","segmentIndex":182,"time":"48:58","seconds":2938,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So, let us know what you're thinking. And if you enjoyed this episode, share it with a friend. They probably wanna hear Sharon. So thanks so much, y'all.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/28-amds-challenge-to-nvidia-the-open-ecosystem-bet-anush-elangovan-and-sharon-zhou/#t-182","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"Oh, it's lovely.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:02","seconds":2,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It's not my opinion of it. I'm why are you pulling the host? Dang it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":2,"time":"0:08","seconds":8,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"Conor, you just you you you you made it too easy for me. It could've gone either way, but it didn't.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":3,"time":"0:13","seconds":13,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. Yeah. We'll go there. We'll go there.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":4,"time":"0:21","seconds":21,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Welcome back to Chain of Thought, everyone. I'm your host, Conor Bronsdon, on the road at Microsoft Build. And today, I am delighted to have Greg Statton joining me. Greg serves in the office at the CTO and as vice president of AI solutions at Cohesity. Greg, welcome to the show.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":5,"time":"0:36","seconds":36,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"Great to see you. Thanks a lot, Conor. I'm really excited to have this conversation with you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":6,"time":"0:41","seconds":41,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. I'm excited to chat with you. It's really appreciated that you made time in between your busy travels. You were just in The UK. I know you've been all over the place talking to customers, talking to folks in the AI space.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":7,"time":"0:52","seconds":52,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And so we're delighted to be able to dive into the critical challenge that is facing nearly every enterprise looking to build with AI, harnessing the vast, often siloed doors of internal data they have. Cohesity started by tackling the massive scale of enterprise data management and backup and and is now at the forefront of helping organizations unlock that data","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":8,"time":"1:13","seconds":73,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"for the AI revolution. Greg, Cohesity manages staggering amounts of data, hundreds of exabytes globally, much of which traditionally sat as a kind of insurance policy and backups. But you've embarked on a fascinating journey to turn that passive data into an active asset, especially for AI. Let's start there. You've mentioned that Cohesity started with building an","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":9,"time":"1:42","seconds":102,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"infinitely scalable distributed file system, but focused initially on those backups we mentioned. Can you walk us through the key evolutionary steps that Cohesity has taken moving from this initial focus towards enabling broader data intelligence and now AI?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":10,"time":"2:00","seconds":120,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"Yeah, absolutely. And I think you said a pretty critical word there. Fascinating. It is really a fascinating story, I think, especially looking outside in. But but from from the inside, it's kind of been a destination where we've we've been heading towards or a stop along the journey ever since we we founded the company. Like, like you said, we started off building this infinitely scalable distributed file system. And a lot of us came from that pedigree of hyperconversion.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":11,"time":"2:27","seconds":147,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"So now we had this file system. We wanted to bring workloads onto it. And we took a step back. We said, Hey, you know, the world of data management, data protection hadn't been, you know, enhanced or revolutionized in a very long time. So we said, Hey, this is something that companies all have to do. They have to back up and protect that data to ensure the integrity and the resiliency of that data last resort.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":12,"time":"2:51","seconds":171,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"But if it's stored on an intelligent file system, there's a lot more that we can do with it. And I think that's kind of where we started to coin this, this phrase of enabling our customers to re leverage their data for operational efficiencies. So we built this, this backup suite of tools that ran right on top of the file system. It could connect to every single major enterprise application,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":13,"time":"3:12","seconds":192,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"both on prem and in the cloud. And we started off by enabling a really easy means for customers to back that data up and then send it to wherever it needed to be. If they needed to replicate to another site, they needed to archive for long term retention. They wanted another copy in the cloud made that extremely seamless and extremely efficient in the way that we transport and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":14,"time":"3:33","seconds":213,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"save that that data. And I think one interesting anecdote around this this time is we built the backup software and we really wanted to jump towards this, you know, enabling customers to gain additional insights from the data. And we started off if you've been a customer since the beginning, you would remember this. But we had this analytics workbench where we enabled customers to go out and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":15,"time":"4:00","seconds":240,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"use the clustered file system with all of the CPU and memory in there, plus the distributed data to be able to run MapReduce queries on the data. And us being a whole bunch of nerds, we said, Oh yeah, everyone's going to love to do MapReduce queries on the data. And it's super simple. You just write your own custom mapper and reducer and Java and upload the the jar files to the cluster,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":16,"time":"4:22","seconds":262,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"pointed at files in a way it goes. Well, shocking, I think literally nobody in the enterprise, but shocking to us was was that was hard to do. So we kind of pushed the pause button on that and focused on kind of the next evolutionary step of backup, then security, then accessing as a file system. And then now kind of in this new phase of generative AI, being able to to bring that data generative AI to help unlock that data's future potential.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":17,"time":"4:53","seconds":293,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So I really like that Cohesity and you, Greg, are both talking about how do we releverage this data that we already have, but maybe isn't being used. As you start thinking beyond backup use cases into test automation, security, how did you pave the way for turning passive data into active data?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":18,"time":"5:16","seconds":316,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"Yeah, it I mean, it really started at its core. You know, I think traditionally a lot of the data management, data protection companies before us focused on the cheapest way to store data in a proprietary fashion on the cheapest medium possible. And there'd been a lot of advancements in compute and in storage and in memory. So, and we wanted to be able to kind of tap into that and harness that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":19,"time":"5:42","seconds":342,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"So, what we what we did is we said, hey, you know, this data is sitting there and our file system is this snapshot based file system. You know, we can very easily by leveraging the way that we structure our metadata within the file system, instantly create kind of redirect on write clones of that data. So we can go in and say, hey, you have these backups of these hundreds or thousands of VMs or this NetApp filer or or this S3 bucket in in AWS.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":20,"time":"6:13","seconds":373,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"How can we how can we instantly reprovision that backup? Not only for recovery. That was kind of the initial phase for this is like, hey, how can we help our customers not only back up quickly, but recover quickly? It's how we do these cloning of it. But then also that allows access to the data. And I think that was kind of a little bit of an moment is like, hey, if we can back this up and if we can then reprovision this back out, it becomes extremely useful.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":21,"time":"6:41","seconds":401,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"And, you know, companies are dealing with these these literal truckloads of of data and trying to shift around these raw bits, these ones and zeros. But data in and of itself isn't necessarily extremely useful. You know, I think within I. T, our job is to be able to apply context to data, to turn it into information for the business. And then the business can take their understanding","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":22,"time":"7:06","seconds":426,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"of that information and turn it into into knowledge. And so by being able to help in the context collection through traditional metadata, advanced metadata, it allows us to be able to help customers not only find the raw raw information that's useful to them, but the correct version, the correct point in time, you know, and be able to kind of help enable this governance layer on top of it to more efficiently move that data for use with with with with other applications.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":23,"time":"7:40","seconds":460,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Let's kind of unravel this point you made just now about efficient use of data. What do you mean when you say that?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":24,"time":"7:46","seconds":466,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"I spent a lot of time in","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":25,"time":"7:49","seconds":469,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"in in IT earlier on in my career, and we were responsible for for caring for and feeding for the data that that drove the drove the business. And there's lots of it. And I think if you talk to anybody in the enterprise, no matter the size, if you point to any given file anywhere in their environment, chances are there's three, four or five copies of that piece of data, that file, that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":26,"time":"8:17","seconds":497,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"object. And there's going to be different permission structures for all of them. There's going to be different information inside of it from from different versions. And so when you're looking forward now in today's world, trying to hop on and leverage AI efficiently in your in your organization, you have some like really tough questions to be able to answer for. And it's not very efficient to back up a truck","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":27,"time":"8:42","seconds":522,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"load, you know, hundreds of petabytes of data into it virtually or physically and ship it off to like AWS or Azure or GCP. Now, the cloud providers will love that, but it's extremely costly. It takes a lot of time because physics haven't changed. You know, we're still bound by by laws of physics. So the time it takes, then you're extending that time to to value.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":28,"time":"9:07","seconds":547,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"So the more that you can do in preparation of that data for your end goal. So again, like, you know, Cy bringing all that data onto a single platform so that you can start munging it to make up a word maybe or to use a word differently here, munging it. All those words.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":29,"time":"9:21","seconds":561,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"You can have you got that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":30,"time":"9:22","seconds":562,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"Yeah, I love it. So you're going to munch that data. You're going to be able to sift through traditional metadata's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":31,"time":"9:29","seconds":569,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"and then through CoECI, we can kind of help create some more advanced metadata's on top of that, but allows the enterprise to to have a governance view into this data that they've never been able to easily have before. And it's not like going and buying another piece of software and then creating another copy of this. This data is being reused. It's it's primary purposes for backup. And with backup, you hope you never have to use the data again. And if you kind of think about it, it's, it's pretty wild to spend money on something that's holding something very important to you that you hope you never have to use. So that's why we decided, hey, why not when it's not being needed for, you know, a full data center recovery or your boss needs to recover an email, let's start doing more with it and help the enterprise become more efficient with managing their data.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":32,"time":"10:18","seconds":618,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"One of the key ways that Cohesity is leveraging this backup data on behalf of their customers is with this shift towards security intelligence, detecting malware or ransomware within backup streams using, anomaly detection. How has successfully applying machine learning for security influenced the roadmap that you have been building for more advanced AI applications?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":33,"time":"10:46","seconds":646,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"Yeah. Yeah. I think it touches a little bit on on what I was talking about before around being able to collect more information about that raw data, applying more context to it. So we launched a suite of of security tools because, again, this is this is data that touches everything in your enterprise. So this is every application, every endpoint at times across all different locations physically and and virtually.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":34,"time":"11:15","seconds":675,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"And so while this isn't set up to replace, you know, all of a company's security tool sets, it can help augment and provide richer insights to help them make decisions. Like, for instance, we're backing up this data and this this data changes over time. So, you know, the first time you, you go in and do a backup, it's a full backup. So it's a copy of everything from that point in time. But then going forward,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":35,"time":"11:42","seconds":702,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"we're looking at the change in data between time, which provides a really interesting insight, being able to look at and model the change of data over time allows us to create fingerprints of this. And so, one of the first things that we did in the machine learning space was like, hey, we can actually put in some anomaly detection into the backup stream as we're ingesting the data to be able to start helping our customers flag data that could be potentially infected by malware. And this is a very fast in line method of being able to look like, hey, does this data like dramatically fall outside of this, of this linear regression line? And maybe this is something that, that a customer should go look at and can more quickly","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":36,"time":"12:27","seconds":747,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"alert upstream, you know, sec ops tools or, or security teams or socks that, Hey, this application now, the entropy has changed dramatically. And when there's a larger entropy change, it more often means that there's some bad actors in there encrypting all of the data or wiping out the data. And so, and we've seen that very be used very successfully by our customers.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":37,"time":"12:53","seconds":773,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"There's been a couple of cases where our anomaly detection engine, because of when the backup was running, actually caught the malware before the SecOps tools did. And the SOC was was alerted. And so they received the alert from Cohesity and they were able to start implementing their security procedures to help safeguard the company. But again, this is all now about collecting","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":38,"time":"13:17","seconds":797,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"more metadata, more meta information about this data and how it's changing over time. So this this this then now provides a lot more context to help organizations or or AI turn that information into knowledge.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":39,"time":"13:32","seconds":812,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"Let's drill down there.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":40,"time":"13:32","seconds":812,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"As orgs are looking to, as you put it, turn this information into knowledge, great phrase, what's the next step look like? What what's the next thing that you think should be built? I'm I'm so curious to understand more about what the roadmap looks like for you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":41,"time":"13:49","seconds":829,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"Yeah. So right now, today, customer go out and buy a Cohesity. Hopefully, they buy a lot of Cohesity, but what but they they'll buy some Cohesity, and and they're oftentimes, you know, optimizing their their backups, and they're fully integrating the security suite and they're starting to remove some of these extra applications and fees and contracts that they have because now they can consolidate","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":42,"time":"14:12","seconds":852,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"on there. It was about two years ago when when we launched our first generative AI applications. Hey, let's let's kind of tap into this and provide some retrieval augment a generation or rag pipelines to this data. You know, we focus on the information retrieval pipeline, creating a semantic index of that data. Our customers can then open this up to other business lines of business in their organization,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":43,"time":"14:36","seconds":876,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"and they can use that own data to to apply context to this. But then if you go back a little bit further in the conversation we had, this is additional meta information. Like I can't even call it metadata. It's not like a file size or ownership. We're now capturing semantic information. We're capturing topic and theme analysis of this data. This is yet more information, applying it as context.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":44,"time":"15:00","seconds":900,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"And so, you know, as we kind of look further forward, one of the key areas that we want to be able to solve for and what we're building now is how can it help companies either build micro SaaS AI solutions for their industry or for their line of business through very simple API access to data? How can it help empower ML teams? I think like you probably know if you if you're new joining","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":45,"time":"15:30","seconds":930,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"an ML, AI or data science program within an organization and you need data for your for your models, there's not really any great cataloging of this. You go find the person with the most tenure in that organization and ask them where they can find this data. And that's madness. And so I think as we're looking forward is like, hey, how can we make it just stupid simple","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":46,"time":"15:51","seconds":951,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"to find the exact piece of information and data you are looking for to help you solve your business problem? And so think of it like a global data catalog that encompasses traditional metadata, kind of augmented traditional metadata with security enhancements. And then now a new world of semantic metadata and that change over time. And this can empower lines of businesses. This can empower security teams to be able to do like deeper forensic analysis.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":47,"time":"16:21","seconds":981,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"And I think, again, it's using that single data fabric where all that data's already been collapsed into.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":48,"time":"16:27","seconds":987,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. I I think it's really interesting to to think about this idea of where data flows and where you have these reuse opportunities. And I I like that everything you're describing thinks kind of through this stage one of, like, okay. Let's leverage the data here, and then, okay. Here's how we evolve it to next. And my understanding of that is that, essentially,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":49,"time":"16:56","seconds":1016,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Cohesity's use of GenAI started by tackling an internal problem, actually. Yeah. Using GPT three and Cohesity Cohesity data, you essentially created an early reg system before it was widely termed. Could you share more about how that initial experiment and the moment that you experienced realized or I guess help you helped you realize the potential for leveraging backup data this way.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":50,"time":"17:22","seconds":1042,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"Yeah. No. That that is a really fun story. So I've I'm a tinkerer. I always love tinkering with with new things. And and while, you know, I don't hold a Ph. D. In in in machine learning or A. I, I've always been curious last fifteen, twenty years in this space. And this was probably about three years ago now. I was running a team of global field experts. So these were deep technical experts in our product that helped our","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":51,"time":"17:52","seconds":1072,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"our sales teams win deals with large customers and then help those large customers be successful. And because this team was very knowledgeable, all of the new sales engineers or new people coming into the company would always ask the folks on my team questions over and over again. And oftentimes it's the same question. And what was hard for them while they always wanted to say yes and they always wanted to help,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":52,"time":"18:17","seconds":1097,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"it was tough to then constantly context switch, answer a question they probably answered 10 times already and then go forward. And when I started questioning a handful of the folks on the team, I said, Well, did you tell the person to read the documentation? Yeah, Greg, we told them the documentation. They still ask the question. Yeah, I still ask the question.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":53,"time":"18:34","seconds":1114,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"Did you tell them to read the frequently asked questions that we constantly spend time updating? Yes, Greg told me, told me to answer the or read the fact. Did they still have a question? Yeah, they still have a question. And then it dawned on me. Was like, Hey, everybody's going to ask a question slightly different. And it's there. The way that they're asking the question is the way that the way they understand the information that they know about today,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":54,"time":"18:57","seconds":1137,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"trying to fill in gaps. And so there's a semantic divide between what we think are frequently asked questions and what a new person actually has. And it was right around this time when I saw, I think, probably a Reddit post of OpenAI providing access to the GPT-three. I was like, Well, this is pretty interesting. I hadn't really spent too much time with NLP because words are hard at times.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":55,"time":"19:22","seconds":1162,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"And I said, well, is interesting. So I signed up and I got a bunch of free credits. I was like, oh, this is sweet. Let me play. With the model, I could send it text and it could send me new text back. Oh, this is interesting. Transformers are really cool. And I already knew that coming into it. But what I was, what I started doing is like, well, Hey, if I send it some text and then I also pack in some more tokens of like some additional context,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":56,"time":"19:50","seconds":1190,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"I can help frame the response from the model, even though the model wasn't trained on this data. So I quickly whip together a little web UI where I, I created a like a semantic index. I just loaded it in memory using TF IDF vectorization and cosine similarity to find paragraphs of text or chunks of text from our internal docs that were semantically relevant to the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":57,"time":"20:19","seconds":1219,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"user's question. Pass it all to GPT-three and it answered. And I was like, it was an moment for me. I said, well, this is great. So then we kind of hosted our little internal prototype after running on my laptop and started opening up to some SCs. They were like, well, this is, this is great. Like, you know, it's not a 100% accurate all the time, but like, this is, this is great. And, and then I started providing reference links back to the files that we used to answer the question. They said, this is great. I can get my answer. I can go verify it with the docs.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":58,"time":"20:51","seconds":1251,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"And it was at that point in time, our founder and our new CEO caught wind of what I built. They said, can you show it to us? Yeah, of course. Showed him. I said, we're going to move you into our R and D organization and we need to build this into the product. I said, well, yeah, it makes total sense. Cause all the data we were using was being stored on Cohesity to begin with. If, if we had this problem, if I had this problem, my team had this problem,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":59,"time":"21:17","seconds":1277,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"more more than likely, there's a lot more people that are suffering the same problems. And so we kind of started to unlock this knowledge discovery problem, to solve internal problems that that we're also now helping our external customers with.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":60,"time":"21:32","seconds":1292,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I don't think I realized that you were on the SE side of things at that point when you joined Cohesity.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":61,"time":"21:38","seconds":1298,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"That's such an interesting journey. I have had several jobs, you know, the way I like to describe myself, because it's it's my ten year anniversary coming up at Cohesity, and I think I've worked in almost every single department except for finance. And I think we're a better company for that decision for the company, not put me in the finance department ever.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":62,"time":"21:59","seconds":1319,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"But I was I've been on the marketing side. I've been on the the sales side, both in an architect role, an SE role, a global resource, now in core R and D.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":63,"time":"22:11","seconds":1331,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"Love it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":64,"time":"22:11","seconds":1331,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, it's really cool to look at your career journey. Think folks who feel pigeonholed, maybe go check out Greg's LinkedIn, which we'll certainly link in the show notes because it's very inspiring to see how you've, you know, continue to expand your technical skills and then also apply them in different domains, whether it's, like, starting as an application developer to now being a VP of AI solutions today and doing core r and d. So, very, very cool to see. So, obviously, mastering retrieval is so critical","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":65,"time":"22:43","seconds":1363,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"before even getting to the generation part because as you mentioned earlier, you know, like, it's great to have something that works most of the time, but the more accurate you can get it, the better. And particularly in large complex organizations that have lots of data to unlock and to leverage, there's huge opportunities here. So what's your thought process around","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":66,"time":"23:05","seconds":1385,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"how organizations should be approaching retrieval for their","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":67,"time":"23:09","seconds":1389,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"AI solutions today?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":68,"time":"23:10","seconds":1390,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"A lot of companies will come and ask questions like, Well, Greg, you know, we want to start leveraging Gen AI internally. We're reading all the blogs and they're saying that I'm going to save, you know, 10x my investment in just 90 days or or I can create this new application with just five lines of Python code and it scales to infinity. You know, how how do I get that tomorrow? And I said, well, let's let's hold on.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":69,"time":"23:35","seconds":1415,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"Put a pin in that for a second. I said, there's there's a lot of hype around this, but there's also, there's a ton of truth to what people are talking about. There's a ton of value to be, to be gained. But I feel like a lot of people skip over the hard part. It's less fun. It's less exciting. It's less sexy. But I think for those of those that have been in the in the world of machine learning and data science know that it kind of it starts with with data. And so I'll talk to a lot of folks, say what you need to first do. This is a nontechnical thing,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":70,"time":"24:11","seconds":1451,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"but get to your peers cross functionally within an organization and and all agree on a governance model. So you need to first figure out where all your data lives. Now that you've got this mapped out globally, you say, all right, what version of this data is going to be important to us to be able to kind of get to our end state now that you've got that identified. It's like, well, of this data,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":71,"time":"24:39","seconds":1479,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"there's probably some data that some people shouldn't be able to see. There's some data that people should see. There's probably some datas that you just don't want ever interacting with an AI model internally or externally. It just could be way too sensitive for you right now. So, you need to be able to then go and say, all right, now here's the data that we want to be able to use. Here's the access controls we want to be able to put on top of that data.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":72,"time":"25:05","seconds":1505,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"And this is kind of a stepped phase data readiness, data preparedness, data hygiene. It's something that I think we as an organization or an industry have put aside for far too long because it's hard. It starts with consolidating the data into one place, then applying that governance layer that you've hopefully talked with all of your peers cross functionally,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":73,"time":"25:28","seconds":1528,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"which no shocker, nobody has. Definitely. Yeah. No, there's not a single person when I say, oh, if you talk to your marketing, your HR, your engineering, you guys have a governance model. Start with that. Start with a governance model around the data.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-73","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":74,"time":"25:42","seconds":1542,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Well, Greg, I hear you can just ask you that since you've been in all those departments.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-74","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":75,"time":"25:47","seconds":1547,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"I can. And I just say, give me the access to the data.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-75","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":76,"time":"25:51","seconds":1551,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"But it's it's it is by far less exciting than saying, well, I want to go test out, you know, the the top of the leaderboard language model or I want to then play with this new agentic flow. You can, you can spend all of your time doing that, but it's still going to give you garbage if you give it garbage. And so that adage of garbage in garbage out is still totally true. But once you've got that foundation,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-76","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":77,"time":"26:17","seconds":1577,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"then then there's like some great steps that we spend a lot of time thinking about around, you know, how do I extract how do I extract the raw data, raw text, image, video, whatever out of that payload of of raw data? You know, how do I embed this? Like we had some some serious challenges around just simple, you know, embedding of this data at massive scale.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-77","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":78,"time":"26:40","seconds":1600,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"You know, how can I re rank this data to to kind of ensure that my I'm getting the kind of the best blend of precision at K and recall across my across my data state to help answer this question? And then at the very end, say, well, what what's going to be the best language model for this? But there's a lot to get to before you get to play with the the LLM on on the other end.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-78","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":79,"time":"27:03","seconds":1623,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I feel like one of the themes of this show, and anyone who's listened to a few episodes will probably notice this, is this discussion of the magic bullet versus the actual infrastructure work that needs to be done. Yes. Because usually, AI is marketed as this magic bullet's gonna solve your problems. You just apply it and bang, you're off the races.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-79","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":80,"time":"27:22","seconds":1642,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"And there's a little bit of that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-80","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":81,"time":"27:24","seconds":1644,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"There is some magic there. No question. But anyone who's played D and D knows that, if you're a wizard, you're trying to harness the the power of the universe,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-81","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":82,"time":"27:34","seconds":1654,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"you have a lot of studying to do. You've got a lot of work to do. And if you just decide to go the sorcerer route and make some pact with, some entity as a warlock or something like that, that comes with risks. And, to to apply this to AI here, if I think about, like, hey. Let's just let's just throw an LLM at it, and things will figure itself out. There are risks to that, and you are not gonna get the accuracy you want all the time. You need to test. You need to evaluate. You need to understand your data pipelines. You need to have the infrastructure in place and do the work in order to get that fully constructed wizard spell that you want.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-82","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":83,"time":"28:06","seconds":1686,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And then, yes, it is magic, and you can apply it, but it it comes with all the upside and all the downside if you don't actually think through your approach to data. And so I appreciate you talking about how Cohesity and how you have have thought through this approach because so often enterprises have data spread across various sources, various formats, and unifying that access or providing a consistent way to query and retrieve relevant information for AI regardless of where or how it was originally stored, I can imagine is quite challenging.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-83","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":84,"time":"28:38","seconds":1718,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"It it it really is. No. I was chuckling as you were saying that because because, yeah, I think and I think me being in the industry on the vendor side, we have to take a lot of the blame here. But our enterprise customers are starting to believe that it's magic. And it's funny, whenever I give I always ask the audience and it's mostly IT folks. Now we're getting some of the data folks. But I was saying,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-84","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":85,"time":"29:03","seconds":1743,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"can can anybody give me a simple definition of of artificial intelligence, machine learning or generative AI? Just the simplest. And then it's usually like dead silence. I'm like, Hey, it's okay. Just tell me what you think it is. And people will try to give me these complex definitions of trying to, in their words, describe neural nets or deep learning. I was like, No, no, no, simpler.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-85","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":86,"time":"29:27","seconds":1767,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"I was like, it's, it's not magic. It's statistics at scale. It's all math. It's using information from the past to predict a future event. And that future event could be the next most probable token or word in a sequence, or now tokens. Now we're doing multiple token predictions or it can be a forecasting model, linear regression, like linear regression still works great today for for certain tasks. And I think we're in a world now where where people are also throwing LLMs at at everything.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-86","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":87,"time":"29:57","seconds":1797,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"Let's say, you know, I want to do I'm just going put an LLM at this data. It'll figure it out. Or I'm going to put an LLM, you know, in my life sciences or within in the hands of my doctors and it'll figure it out. And there's a couple of major problems with this too, like like you touched that like we had talked about the data problem on the other side, but there's probably certain problems that that you don't want to use an LLM for or sometimes you don't even want to use AI for. And you have to understand like as a as a as a product owner in the enterprise or","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-87","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":88,"time":"30:30","seconds":1830,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"creating products, you have to understand the end use and what like a sufficient F1 score is going to be like, is it okay that it's going to get potentially get it wrong 15% of the time? Or do you want it 2% of the time? And so being able to disclose those evaluation scores as well as understand the use case, what's going to be acceptable is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-88","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":89,"time":"30:54","seconds":1854,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"kind of also something that we're not necessarily talking about.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-89","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":90,"time":"30:57","seconds":1857,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It's a great point to take that product owner mindset of what do we actually need to deliver here, because it can really vary. What's acceptable on an internal document retrieval use case is extremely different from what, a financial services provider needs in order to, put a customer service bot in into action.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-90","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":91,"time":"31:17","seconds":1877,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And and that's my you know, we were obviously worked with a lot of Galileo and have dealt with a lot of our enterprise customers. And, it's a it's a very complicated, customizable, deep field. And I I know that you're dealing with that with a lot of your customers. And I've heard you kind of critique this common approach, of of using one model to evaluate another as turtles all the way down. LM as a judge, I think, has a lot of pros, but there are definitely some cons.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-91","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":92,"time":"31:46","seconds":1906,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Why do you view this approach as insufficient, especially for high stakes enterprise use cases?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-92","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":93,"time":"31:51","seconds":1911,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"I think it's tough. Although, you know, I've been I've been thinking a lot about this because I say it a lot like it's turtles all the way down. You should never do this. I don't know if you should never do this. I think if it goes back to what I was talking about getting evaluations for this, like, do we have proper evaluations on the evaluator model? Like, how do we know that it's giving us a good result? There may be some use cases where this is this is completely valid, but I think we initially started doing this pretty heavily. If I look a lot at like the birth of some the open source projects around evaluations","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-93","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":94,"time":"32:22","seconds":1942,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"and using an LLM is because it was hard. The cognitive load on the humans to evaluate, you know, five pages of text is a lot, especially when you kind of look at it, you know, on the opposite end of the spectrum. You know, we collect email metrics to to help retrain AI models all the time, either like I put a shirt in my shopping cart or I don't. I buy something or I don't. I give a thumbs up or I don't. That's a very low cognitive load","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-94","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":95,"time":"32:53","seconds":1973,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"that needs to be applied to be able to get good, good feedback or good evaluations. But if I word vomit up, you know, a 10,000 word response to a simple question, it takes an expert in that. It takes somebody reading through it. And an LLM might be good at it, But I think it's also disingenuous for us to throw away, you know, twenty years of of NLP evaluations.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-95","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":96,"time":"33:18","seconds":1998,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"There's probably a good mix mix of both. And I think there's uses for LLM's in this. Think about it. LLMs are great at summarization and kind of like first draft generations. And if I'm if I start to use the LLM for what it's good at in these pipelines, like you start to get some great results. Like recently, I was doing I kind of had this this notion or an idea, and I'm sure it's been done out there,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-96","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":97,"time":"33:45","seconds":2025,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"but it's saying, you know, a lot of people are looking at emails with with alarms or rags saying the answer is either wholly good or bad. And again, because that's an easy path and we're as humans, we're like really lazy. It's simple. Yeah. Yeah, it's simple. But, you know, when we're having a conversation, you know, an individual will question a single statement or a single thought. You know, humans, we decompose","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-97","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":98,"time":"34:13","seconds":2053,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"whatever is being said to us into kind of facts or claims or assertions. And we try to evaluate internally. Is this do I believe this? Do I have evidence for this? So like I've been doing a lot of work and taking the generations of an LLM, decomposing it using an LLM in the claims because, again, being able to identify parts of speech or phrases and extracting them is a is an NLP task that LMS can do pretty well. And then I can use some other models to like classify","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-98","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":99,"time":"34:44","seconds":2084,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"a claim and assertion along with retrieve context to say like, hey, is this is this valid? Do I support this? Do I not support this or do not have enough information? So I think there are great uses for LMS in any bells,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-99","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":100,"time":"34:57","seconds":2097,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"but it can't be taking exclusively LMs. It can't be exclusively,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-100","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":101,"time":"35:01","seconds":2101,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"and it can't be the model that you use to generate the response.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-101","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":102,"time":"35:04","seconds":2104,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Oh, yeah. I see this a lot where I think a lot of the folks are having success when we work with enterprise customers today is like, hey. We're applying multiple judges that are different LMs or maybe waiting the responses and then using those to flag things, then you go have humans look at. Because, yeah, at a certain scale, we can't have humans look at everything.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-102","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":103,"time":"35:24","seconds":2124,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"That's just where we are with automation today. But, like, it doesn't mean humans shouldn't be involved in the process and that human validation shouldn't occur. We call it continuous learning through human feedback, which is kind of how we've integrated in our platform. Yep.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-103","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":104,"time":"35:36","seconds":2136,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"And that is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-104","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":105,"time":"35:38","seconds":2138,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"huge. Being able to get human feedback into the process. And you're right, humans are not going to be able to get everything. It's same with like with like synthetic data generation. If you start with something that humans have created, it's a good foundation. If you then, you know, randomize your distribution of responses and start spot checking.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-105","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":106,"time":"35:57","seconds":2157,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And that can be reinforced into the model to then say, oh, like, let's improve how we approach this. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-106","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":107,"time":"36:02","seconds":2162,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"And being able to code in reward functions for for correctly identifying","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-107","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":108,"time":"36:07","seconds":2167,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"these are great practices. But I've seen some people say, well, I used GPT-four or five to to generate it. I'll just use GPT-four or five to say, is it good or not? And that's, you know, that's just that's the inmates running the asylum. It's like walking into a a room of thieves as a cop and saying, you a thief? No. Thief thief's gonna say, no. I'm not a thief. No. Of course, I'm not.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-108","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":109,"time":"36:30","seconds":2190,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"One of my favorite, prompting techniques, I don't even know if you call it a technique, is to like, if I'm just writing some stupid copy and I I, you know, I use GPT four for it first. Mhmm. It's to go to Claude and be like, GPT four came up with this. And, honestly, I think it's kinda crap. Like, you know, I I really need you to make it punchier. And Claude's gonna be like, yeah. I'll do it. I got you. And I I think it's the same comparison where you want to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-109","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":110,"time":"36:55","seconds":2215,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"almost pit. I don't want to say pit them. It's it's adversarial.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-110","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":111,"time":"36:59","seconds":2219,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. No. It's some adversarial. No.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-111","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":112,"time":"37:01","seconds":2221,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"And I think that, you know, using using adversarial techniques is becoming more and more popular in this because you're especially if you're going to go then use reinforcement learning to to retrain. You don't want to overfit towards like, oh, you know, but open a for bias because then everything it says is going to be perfect. You're going to have F one scores of one across the board, and you know that's not going to be right.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-112","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":113,"time":"37:27","seconds":2247,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. And I think, honestly, we we maybe don't make these comparisons enough to how you think of human fully human organizations versus human plus what I think of as, like, async digital employees, a k Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or LMs. And, I mean, like, it's the same way if I have a coding intern who I'm working with, like, as would I be using Cursor to vibe code is, like, hey. Yeah. They're they're very enthusiastic. They'll go do things. You have to check their work. You have to. Like, you don't have time to check all their work, but you have to get the feedback. You have to let them learn. You have to give them, you know, rules and guardrails to approach it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-113","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":114,"time":"38:05","seconds":2285,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And this can change depending on the sophistication of different AI systems of, like, how much feedback they need, how much can be handled by other async AI employees. It like, just like you would for, you know, training any team member, you can't ignore that work and just assume that the team member has come to you fully trained, fully coached. And I I think that folks who are","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-114","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":115,"time":"38:30","seconds":2310,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"great managers of people are going to have skill sets that are valuable for managing LLM systems. At least that's my opinion.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-115","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":116,"time":"38:40","seconds":2320,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"I was literally just going to say, I think all of us have had experiences with great managers and terrible managers. And if you think of it the same way, like and those of us who are people leaders out there, there are times where we feel like we're doing really, really well. And it's a lot of that like feedback. It's it's being able to look at the work and provide, you know, great feedback or areas for for improvement. But it's it's our job to be able to inspect","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-116","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":117,"time":"39:13","seconds":2353,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"flag if something doesn't look right and then help coach and guide people or or autonomous","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-117","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":118,"time":"39:21","seconds":2361,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"async employees. I kind of like that eight and async employee.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-118","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":119,"time":"39:23","seconds":2363,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I that's how I've been, like, thinking about it in my head because I I was trying to frame, like, what is an agent to me when it's, like, accurately and well applied. And to me, it's like, it's probably a junior employee. I I I don't I I know there are some folks who are getting really incredible results, and they're saying, oh, this is PhD level research happening here. And in some cases, I think they're getting specific results, but I I don't think it's consistent necessarily all the time yet. There's a there's a lot of hype around agentic AI systems. And while there's a ton of potential,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-119","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":120,"time":"39:54","seconds":2394,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I know a lot of us are expressing caution about teams jumping in too quickly without robust evaluation, without robust testing, without observability Yeah. Because it does feel like you're letting a hoard of junior employees loose, and they can do a lot of great things, and they can also make mistakes that are crucial.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-120","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":121,"time":"40:11","seconds":2411,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"Yeah. I mean, we're we're still working on on trying to get, evals right for, like, a a simple rag pipeline. And now you you open it up to a to an agent that could have access to fifteen, twenty different tools that it's calling. Get it right early and then you're going to be able to. Mean, it's just like we were talking about with with data. It's garbage in garbage out. You can build these really complex and beautiful agentic systems.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-121","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":122,"time":"40:35","seconds":2435,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"But if you can't trust it, how useful is it?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-122","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":123,"time":"40:38","seconds":2438,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I feel like I have to shout out Galileo's own agentic evaluations and our, reliability platform building for agents today and say, hey. Check it out. galileo.ai. I can sign up for you to try it out. Yeah. There's more information on there. I won't spend too much time on it. But, yeah, there are lot of foundational steps to your point around data preparation, data lineage that needs to occur.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-123","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":124,"time":"40:59","seconds":2459,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And as we come to the close of this conversation, I'd love to get your thoughts, Greg, on on kind of where you see the needs for data professionals and, you know, engineers in the next six months, year. Like, what do you think they should be focusing on? Is it data lineage, and is it evaluations? Is it, you know, the rigor they're applying? Where should their heads be?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-124","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":125,"time":"41:22","seconds":2482,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"Yes. Everywhere and everything all at once. No. But in in in all seriousness, I think there's there's kind of two different camps. And I think I'm, you know, I'm very fortunate to be able to take the career path that I that I have and have had the the the trust for my leadership to kind of let me go go explore. But I, I think it's for one very specific reason. We'll get here, get to a second. But I think if you're sitting there today as a as a as a data professional or an AML professional,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-125","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":126,"time":"41:54","seconds":2514,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"you know, it's it's being able to to have a better grasp of the of the data demand more from yourselves, your organization and the industry to help ease the access to the correct data more rapidly. A lot of these folks, you know, they want to increase performance in their models. You need more data, more data equals more better. But it's really hard to find that data today. So I think as an industry, we need we need to to step that up. But I think on the other side of the coin,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-126","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":127,"time":"42:26","seconds":2546,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"and this is the tough thing, I think, for a lot of us to kind of start grappling with is you're you're building a tool to solve a problem. Try to understand the problem that you're solving for. You know, if you can spend time in that particular industry or that particular job role or function, whether it be actually doing the job, you know, interviewing tons of people that work in that function or bring those people, I think more importantly, bring those people into the fold and you both can kind of co learn from each other on this.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-127","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":128,"time":"43:00","seconds":2580,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"I think if if if we can get more people thinking about the business problem that they're solving for, we're going to we're going to really rapidly increase the pace of of innovation and problem solving.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-128","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":129,"time":"43:10","seconds":2590,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I love that. I think that is a great indicator of empowered product and r and d teams everywhere is they think obsessively about the problem they're solving. They talk to their users. They talk to their customers, and they bring that feedback in. And absolutely, we have to apply it to AI. And I think it's really easy when we're using this incredible technology to just get excited, as you said, to, like, oh, I wanna just build the newest thing. Let's try the newest one. And there's nothing wrong with doing some of that, but to really get into production with customers takes effort, takes work.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-129","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":130,"time":"43:39","seconds":2619,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I definitely recommend everyone who is listening to check out Greg's LinkedIn for incredible insights he shares and cohesity.com for everything Cohesity does. There's so much opportunity in the AI data space, and Cohesity is definitely leading the way. Greg, thank you so much for joining me today. It's been a ton of fun. Thank you so much. It's been a blast chatting with you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-130","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":131,"time":"43:59","seconds":2639,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. Absolutely agreed. I feel like we could go on for so much longer, especially once we start getting into soccer, though I I really don't wanna talk about how good LAFC is right now because my sounders are getting killed. So we're we're gonna actually skip that one, hold out for another episode where, hopefully, we'll have a win to show for it. For another MLS after dark conversation.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-131","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":132,"time":"44:19","seconds":2659,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"God. Yeah. After dark indeed, four zero.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-132","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":133,"time":"44:23","seconds":2663,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"Oh, it's lovely.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-133","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":134,"time":"44:25","seconds":2665,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It's not my opinion of it. I'm are you bullying the host? Dang it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-134","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":135,"time":"44:31","seconds":2671,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"Oh, Conor, you just you you you you made it too easy for me. It could've gone either way, but it didn't.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-135","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":136,"time":"44:36","seconds":2676,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. Yeah. We'll go there. We'll go back.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-136","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":137,"time":"44:39","seconds":2679,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Anyways, Greg, thank you so much, man. This is a ton of fun. We'll link everything you've talked about in the show notes. Any parting words for our audience? Always be curious.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-137","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":138,"time":"44:49","seconds":2689,"speaker":"Greg Statton","text":"You know, I think always always ask yourself, well, how does it do that? Why does it do that? Should it do that? Can it do something else? Being curious is is what life's all about.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-138","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":139,"time":"45:02","seconds":2702,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I love that. That is a fantastic approach to life, and I can very much see it in your career and your mindset and and how you've explored. I it makes things a lot more fun, and it gives you a lot of opportunities. So thank you so much, Greg, for sharing your insights and wisdom with us. And that's all for this episode of Chain of Thought, everyone. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you are listening, wherever you get your podcasts. We're on YouTube as well. And you can check out our YouTube for so many more deep dives onto building with AI,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-139","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton","episode":27,"guid":"aa7e440b-dcd3-43c5-9303-84f4c3d5ca13","episodeTitle":"Your Key to AI Success is Hiding in Plain Sight | Cohesity's Greg Statton","publishedAt":"2025-06-11","segmentIndex":140,"time":"45:32","seconds":2732,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"our webinars, and much more. So be sure to subscribe. Greg, thanks again. It's been a ton of fun. Thanks, Conor.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/27-your-key-to-ai-success-is-hiding-in-plain-sight-cohesitys-greg-statton/#t-140","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Honestly, I'm just struggling right now because I I am in my head now picturing Bowser with a French accent, and I'm gonna have to go find this after the show. So","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:08","seconds":8,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"I just made it up, but that would be hilarious.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":2,"time":"0:20","seconds":20,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Welcome back to Chain of Thought, everyone. I am your host, Conor Bronsdon. And today, I'm joined by Carly Taylor. Carly is the field CTO for gaming at Databricks and founder of g g AI. Carly, welcome to the show. It's great to have you here. Thank you. It's so good to be here. It's really honestly exciting for me to have this conversation because similar to you, I have always been fascinated by the field of gaming,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":3,"time":"0:44","seconds":44,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"both tabletop and digital. And as you've noted to me before, gaming has driven the advancement of GPUs, graphical processing units, and it's really the tech that has built the current AI boom as we understand it today. I know most people understand at least a little bit of this story, and I'll recommend the incredible acquired episodes on NVIDIA if anyone wants to go much deeper,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":4,"time":"1:10","seconds":70,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"from a podcast format. But can you start by connecting the dots a bit for our audience? How did the video game industry enable today's AI boom? Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I could talk on this for an hour, and I actually have before at conferences","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":5,"time":"1:25","seconds":85,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"to the the nerds who are interested in things like this. But, you know, it really goes back to even before the first GPU hit the market, which was invented by NVIDIA about twenty five years ago, gamers have been pushing the limits of what their computers can do since we started making video games on computers. Right? I think back to Roller Coaster Tycoon, which was written by","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":6,"time":"1:50","seconds":110,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"Chris Sawyer, I think is his name. For the record, one of the best games ever. One of the best games of all time, still. And it has staying power. Right? And what's crazy","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":7,"time":"1:58","seconds":118,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"oh, sorry. Go ahead. No. I was just gonna say I picked it up on Steam recently and played it for a day, and it's just like, yes. Still good. Nostalgic. It's still fun. Yeah. What's crazy about that game is that he wrote that entirely by himself in Assembly.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":8,"time":"2:12","seconds":132,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"And Wow. The reason that he did that and anyone anyone who programs will know, like, Assembly is, like, the nerdiest of nerds languages. You know, you're basically talking straight to the to the machine at that point. And the reason he did that was because the CPU at, like, power at the time couldn't handle the types of things he wanted to do with, like, guest interactions and the way that he wanted this game to work. So in order to hyper optimize this game, he just wrote, like, pure machine level code so that he didn't have to deal with any abstractions or anything that would slow down, like, what he was trying to build.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":9,"time":"2:45","seconds":165,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"And I think that kind of encapsulates the gamer mindset, which is, like, your only limit is your imagination in what you can build, and they won't let things like compute power slow them down. And so I think that, you know, that mindset set up a trajectory for gamers to continuously push the limits of what compute could do. When the first GPU hit the market, like I said about twenty five years ago,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":10,"time":"3:07","seconds":187,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"I think it was called the GeForce two fifty six. It had the processing power of, a potato nowadays. Right? Like, it Yeah. It was very rudimentary from what we consider today. But over time, as GPUs started to become more used in gaming, you know, they really accelerated graphics processing and the ability to make worlds richer and look more vibrant and look more realistic.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":11,"time":"3:32","seconds":212,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"You want more polygons? You want things to look more real? Like, you need a better GPU. And, you know, that that consumer drive forward not only, you know, made NVIDIA the company that it is today and allowed them to innovate and be the best in the world at doing what they do, But it drove the price at every point of those GPUs down. And you can actually see this trend over time when you look at basically the cost to do a calculation on a GPU. The best way to normalize it is, what does it cost to do some sort of matrix calculation?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":12,"time":"4:03","seconds":243,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"And the cost for each calculation over time has just gone down continuously. So now we're at the point where we have these insane data center GPUs that are used primarily for generative AI. They're not really used for gaming. Although, that would be sick.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":13,"time":"4:20","seconds":260,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Oh, I mean, I can only imagine what that You're right. Use all the capacity, but it should be fun. Running it, everything at, like, the highest setting possible.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":14,"time":"4:30","seconds":270,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"Your electric bill is, like, $80,000. You know, now we're we're at this point where it's it was possible to build those data center GPUs at the price, the point that they're at today. And that's not to say they're not expensive. I think one of those is, like, $70. Those aren't for people to buy. Those are enterprise level. But, you know, without the push, the consumer push for GPUs and the acceleration in that development and making things cheaper, making each of those calculations cheaper over the years,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":15,"time":"4:56","seconds":296,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"I don't think that we would have been primed for the AI revolution that we have today. Because the compute power necessary is just incredible.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":16,"time":"5:03","seconds":303,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Absolutely agreed. And it's interesting to see how the Kudo ecosystem and everything NVIDIA has built there really set the stage for this last ten plus years of development in AI. And as you mentioned, you've gone deep on this topic before, and maybe we'll have to have you back for another full episode where we just on that. But I love that you've been able to carve out such an interesting niche for yourself here as a director of engineering at Activision, then Microsoft, a founder,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":17,"time":"5:28","seconds":328,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"an influential industry voice with over a 170,000 LinkedIn followers today. You've obviously done a ton of public speaking, and you're one of the lucky folks who gets to talk about video games and their impact on AI and data every day. What first made you fall in love with gaming? Was it roller coaster tycoon, something else?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":18,"time":"5:47","seconds":347,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"I think that was definitely part of it, if I'm being honest. That was one of my favorite games. But I I guess I've identified as a gamer ever since I was really young. I started playing video games with my mom when I was probably too young. Nowadays, they'd say, know, don't let your kids sit in front of screens, but I was, like, this far away from, like, an old CRT TV","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":19,"time":"6:07","seconds":367,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"just with my nose straight up against the glass. You know? And I think that as an only child, like, experience of not just playing with someone, playing with my mom later, gaming on you know, like, sitting next to each other on the couch, playing video games with your friends was, like, such a just such a vibe. And then growing up into multiplayer online games,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":20,"time":"6:29","seconds":389,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"I think that it's just been something that has been part of, for me, like, recreationally, but part of my life since I was young. And then it really exempt like, I think the role gaming played in my life was really exemplified for me during COVID. Like everyone else, I was stuck inside. But also like everyone else, I was playing Warzone basically constantly with my friends, and it was a great way to talk to people because we were all so isolated.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":21,"time":"6:57","seconds":417,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"So we'd all sit down, make a drink, hop on, you know, and just kinda just, like, talk crap with one another and hang out. And, yeah, it was a really good time, and it was at that time that I saw the job posting at Call of Duty, and they were looking for a data scientist. And I remember talking to my squad on Warzone and saying, they're looking for a data scientist for Warzone. Wouldn't it be crazy if I got this job? And, like, the rest is history.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":22,"time":"7:25","seconds":445,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"Yeah. Love that. I think I've just been a gamer. I don't know anything different.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":23,"time":"7:29","seconds":449,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"That definitely resonates with me as well. I'm right there with you with Roller Coaster Tycoon. And then for me, like, my first time really getting into coding, like, I'd I'd started to do a little bit, helping refurbish computers on, you know, basic stuff around getting, using a command line to, actually refurbish them and, you know, update the software. But then it was like building websites for a RuneScape clan I was running. I was like, honestly, for my first time doing, like, quite a bit of coding. So,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":24,"time":"7:56","seconds":476,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"it's funny to see how gaming will drive folks to take on these new challenges. And, you know, you mentioned the social collaborative element. I was doing a ton of Among Us during the pandemic, where it's like my friends and I would get together and be like, let's do a little murder mystery together. So I I totally hear you on that. And it's it's really cool to see how you've not only been such a integral part of the industry and seen it up close,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":25,"time":"8:19","seconds":499,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"but have applied your background as a as a coder and data scientist, and looked at uniquely, I think, how traditional game development has has a kind of a data problem. So let's set the stage for this conversation with some grounding in how game development happens, plus how game data is captured, since I think that'll help inform this whole conversation around applying AI to gaming and how it flows","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":26,"time":"8:47","seconds":527,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"into one another. So we'll dive into the intersection of AI and gaming a bit later, but can you walk us through how games are traditionally built, particularly focused on how data and telemetry fit into that process?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":27,"time":"8:59","seconds":539,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"For sure. Yeah. I think it it really it depends. Like, the traditional game development process is gonna vary based on if you're at a startup, if you're bootstrapping things yourself, if you're a triple a game studio, it might look different. I think the unifying theme, though, is that game development is creatively driven, which is good. Right? Like, that's how we get these immersive worlds and these really enriching stories.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":28,"time":"9:24","seconds":564,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"The issue with traditional game development though is that when you're coming at things purely from a creative standpoint and you're translating that into engineering requirements for how the world needs to be built, you're thinking about data, but you're thinking about data to accomplish a singular goal, which is to get the game out the door. Right? Everyone wants to make ship. Like,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":29,"time":"9:47","seconds":587,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"that's the goal. Right? And you see when things get pushed back, like Grand Theft Auto just got pushed back again, like, there's reaction, and there's a cost to not shipping your game. And so, like, these deadlines are taken very seriously. And working in gamedev, I can tell you that, like, you are constantly counting down the minutes until you go to alpha, until you go beta, and then until you go to ship.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":30,"time":"10:11","seconds":611,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"And, again, driving that process is this creative iterative process. There's green lights. There's all sorts of things that studios are balancing and juggling and trying to get just to get the game out the door. And from what I've noticed, oftentimes data ends up becoming a second class citizen in those conversations. Because while critical to the game development process and specifically to the live operations process, which is how you support your game once it's out,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":31,"time":"10:40","seconds":640,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"you can still ship a game without data. You just won't know anything about what's going on. You know, there's things in telemetry that you need to know. And as the game is being built, engineers put this in because they need to see if things are working properly. Right? They want to capture, did you or did you not kill that boss at the end of the level? Right? Like, those things are very critical to know. There's other things that might not seem","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":32,"time":"11:04","seconds":664,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"important until you realize they're extremely important. Things like the session length of a player, if they got stuck in some onboarding step somewhere. Right? If your controls or your mechanisms or your game design has something that's too hard for people to pick up or something that's unintuitive. Those are things that you can answer with data, but you have to be extremely purposeful about how you're defining the scope of what you're trying to understand","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":33,"time":"11:34","seconds":694,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"and how you're gonna reflect and look back upon the decisions that were made. And the unfortunate reality is that when you're coming up against ship, the first thing to slip is like, well, you know, whatever. We'll figure it out when we figure it out. Or we'll see it in game reviews if people can't get through onboarding. You know, we'll hear from the community.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":34,"time":"11:51","seconds":711,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"And there is some piece of that that's part of this. But the in game telemetry, again, often just ends up becoming a second class citizen because shipping is the most important thing. And it's never unless it's something extraordinarily important or some financial metric, it's never a block to ship a game. It's just a really nice, nice to have.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":35,"time":"12:12","seconds":732,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It's such an interesting, I guess, illuminating fact because, you know, from the outside looking in as someone who's just a casual game player not working directly in the industry, you know, obviously, the term AI has existed in gaming for decades and, you know, referring to NBC behavior. And so my expectation was just, oh, of course, there's so much data being collected because they have to fuel these,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":36,"time":"12:35","seconds":755,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"you know, nontraditional actions, potentially deterministic potentially nondeterministic based off of, you know, how a player is interacting with the game and, you know, the settings you have applied. So it's it's almost confusing to think, oh, data isn't a first class citizen when it comes to gaming? So, I mean, you mentioned this pressure to ship as a big part of","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":37,"time":"12:56","seconds":776,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"why telemetry sometimes kind of gets forgotten here. Is part of the challenge here that studios aren't really having the conversation in advance about what do they actually want to leverage that data for, until after the game is live because they're just saying, hey, we gotta ship this thing? Or why do you think these kind of crucial data strategy conversations are happening","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":38,"time":"13:21","seconds":801,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"often too late in the process?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":39,"time":"13:23","seconds":803,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"Yeah. I think that that's a really good a good question, and that's a good guess. I think that there is a lot of data. It's not always an issue that the data isn't even being collected. So that is definitely part of it. If you're not actually instrumenting the telemetry, like I said, if it's a second class citizen and it's not there, it's not there. But the question then becomes, even if it is there,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":40,"time":"13:46","seconds":826,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"what are you doing with it? You know? The gaming industry is world class in a lot of things that they do, but I will say that the data adoption curve for most gaming studios is probably behind where you would consider most tech companies in terms of best practices for where the data needs to go. And a lot of that has to do with every game is so different, and a lot of them have these extremely complicated,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":41,"time":"14:11","seconds":851,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"especially for online games, like server client architectures. How often are you putting data where it's going? Are you saving all of your data? Are you sampling it? Where are you putting it? How are you transforming it? And then that's just the question of where does it go? Then you have all these other questions about how do you transform it and get it business ready?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":42,"time":"14:31","seconds":871,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"And those aren't always immediately obvious answers, especially since the people handling the data are game devs. They're not business analysts. Right? Like, they know what they care about in their game, but that might not align well with what finance or marketing cares about. Right? And in order to find a harmony where you have everything captured that everyone could possibly care about. You end up in a space where you're doing a lot of trial and error. And, unfortunately, in the game space, trial and error is expensive.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":43,"time":"15:01","seconds":901,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"Dev time and time to get things into the, you know, live build. Like, we're talking six, eight weeks sometimes. You know? So missing something is very expensive. And I think it's really just now becoming so obvious that gaming not only is a huge opportunity in terms of the number of people who play video games. I think we probably had this idea of the industry from twenty years ago, where the only people who play video games are like, you know, the kids in Stranger Things were also playing","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":44,"time":"15:35","seconds":935,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"D and D. Like, it's like this weird nerd habit. And I don't think that that has proven true. I think mobile games have opened up a whole new world for people. And so when you have anything that's being massively adopted across the world, you're going to have behaviors that you don't understand. Even if you've played your game a thousand times, there it's nothing like having a thousand different people playing your game once. Right? Like, the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":45,"time":"16:07","seconds":967,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"possibilities, like, the feature space of things people can do, people break things very creatively. Or, like, you know, and that's just part of the human experience. And I think, you know, unless you've done it before like, these triple a studios are getting a lot better with data because they have to do it all the time. But it's still been in the past maybe five years that data's become something that's taken more seriously and that has a proven ROI.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":46,"time":"16:33","seconds":993,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"But if you're not set up to you might be even capturing your data. If you're not set up to act on it, then you have another problem. Like, are you prepared to do experimentation? Are you prepared to make changes if you see that people don't like some mechanic? Like, are you prepared to just, like, rip something that you like out of your game based on feedback?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":47,"time":"16:52","seconds":1012,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"It sounds obvious, but some people are not willing to do that because they feel like they understand things in a way that data can't capture. So if you don't have a data first mindset of the people who are looking at it, it doesn't matter what it tells you or if you're capturing it or if you're seeing anything, because no one's gonna listen to it. You're bringing up so many good points here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":48,"time":"17:13","seconds":1033,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I think where I wanna start is maybe the most basic example of this idea where we're always designing for how we think a customer is gonna interact. No matter the business, whether whether it's it's gaming or something else, we think, oh, they're gonna do this. And there's always a creative way that they break it, and they do it differently from us. And I I wanna talk about this difference between","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":49,"time":"17:36","seconds":1056,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"QA ing and testing and games and game design versus how things happen in actuality as players actually get exposed to it. But to me, it almost is simpler. Like, there's this very common video, we've probably all seen it, of a cup with little holes for shapes in it. And it's like, oh, like, what what shape do you put in which hole? And every shape goes in the square hole. Because like, oh, they all fit in there. It's we don't need to put it in these design holes. And I always think of this image. People who have listened to me in different podcasts have probably heard me reference this before, because it's just the one that always sticks to my mind when we talk about this, like, design problem of how is a user actually going use this? It's like, oh, they're going to find the basic use case. They're going to apply it,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":50,"time":"18:19","seconds":1099,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and they're going to go, oh, I can spam magic missile in this game. I'm just going to keep hitting people with magic missile. Don't need to try these eight other things, I can just hit them with more magic missile. And this comes back to that difference of of QA teams playing a game versus how the general public plays it, and like how a thousand weird gamers like myself are gonna go break things in different ways. How does this gap impact","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":51,"time":"18:39","seconds":1119,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"the the usefulness of data collected before a game hits beta or a full launch compared to once you have, you know, all these different folks trying and breaking the game in unique ways?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":52,"time":"18:50","seconds":1130,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"It's crazy because you don't realize your own blind spots or your assumptions until they're tested by people who have who are coming at it completely, like, with brand new eyes. Right? A lot of this can be circumvented if you have, like, a good user testing framework. Right? So a lot of the big studios will bring in random people literally off the street for","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":53,"time":"19:13","seconds":1153,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"playtests to see how they play. And I've seen some of these playtest areas and they're crazy like they do eye movement tracking across the screen and see how you interact with things. And that's very high-tech and can get you a lot of the way there. But it still cannot account for regional differences. Right? Like, are you doing play tests in every market you're in? Like, probably not. Like, you try to get good demographic data, but it's hard to. So, like, are your translations in game landing in some","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":54,"time":"19:46","seconds":1186,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"country where something is not a norm and people kind of don't understand what's supposed to be, like, a well understood social interaction that leads to some mechanic. Like, it's easy to take those things for granted. And it's also easy well, not easy. It's hard to truly test the resiliency of your infrastructure at scale. So companies will obviously do stress testing of their data pipelines, of their servers, of all of their architecture to make sure that they can handle what they would expect at, like, a launch capacity.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":55,"time":"20:21","seconds":1221,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"You know, they'll stress test all their systems and make sure that they're not gonna completely implode. But there's nothing like a production environment to truly test the things that you've built. I posted this on LinkedIn the other day. It's it's like a funny joke, but it ends up being true in more industries than just gaming, where you have users saying like, hey, can we hire more QA,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":56,"time":"20:42","seconds":1242,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"you know, to test the product before it goes out? And the company just says, we have QA. They're called users. Yes. And the sad truth is that it ends up being, like, a lot of weird mechanics, bugs, holes in the maps, like, you know, just stuff that is kind of hard to find doesn't get caught until you unleash thousands and thousands of people who are getting into crazy positions and taking vehicles where they were never meant to go, and just doing all the wild stuff that a bunch of roving bands of lunatics are gonna do. You know? But as you mentioned earlier, this also creates a secondary problem of","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":57,"time":"21:18","seconds":1278,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"how much are you actually going to react to that user data. Mhmm. And it sounds like there's a lot of disparate approaches across the industry and maybe hurdles that have to be overcome to push an update and actually react quickly if something is buggy and broken.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":58,"time":"21:35","seconds":1295,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"It's hard. Yeah. So, I mean, you're thinking, like, a lot of gamers don't realize this, but let's think about a game that is on PlayStation, Xbox, and PC. Right? Like, the standard stack of platforms. To get a game update, let's say, like, just on PC. You know? I worked in security. Let's say I wanted to do an update to a kernel driver that's only on the PC version of the game. So I don't have to touch PlayStation or Xbox, but I need to send a PC patch out. How often do you think the, you know, in this case Microsoft for PC updates, like, how often are they gonna let me make everyone","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":59,"time":"22:18","seconds":1338,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"who plays my game update just to get a security patch on? Like, can I make people download an update every day? What if I have to do it across all the platforms? You know? Like, how how much of an update is worth updating for? I'm gonna ask someone in rural Australia to pay, like, a crazy amount because they went over their data cap this month because I forgot to put a piece of telemetry in the game, so I have to ask them to download date.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":60,"time":"22:47","seconds":1367,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"Like, there's certain things that just are not critical enough to justify the user friction to push out things like that. Not saying security. Security is a really big one that is justifiable, but there's other things that are, like, nice to haves that sorry. I'm not gonna make, you know, millions of people around the world download an update because you forgot to get a session length telemetry marker in the game. Like, it's just not gonna happen. So, like, you'll get that data when you get it, but it'll be maybe in a couple weeks. And that's if you can get, like, a fast patch out. For other things, I mean, we're talking like a build process.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":61,"time":"23:23","seconds":1403,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"Six weeks usually is the time frame you're looking. Like, you're looking at your new content for a season update. Like, you're months ahead. You are testing early. These build pipelines are long because you have to make sure you're not gonna break things with PlayStation. You're not gonna break things with Xbox. Like, they have to all play nice together. It has to get into their store. Like, you know, this actual pipeline for development,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":62,"time":"23:47","seconds":1427,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"we have to do our own internal QA. PlayStation has their own QA for certain things. Like, there's a lot that goes into making sure a patch is safe and is okay to be put into a game. And data's usually not one of those things that you can say like, hey, can we spin up overnight QA resources because I forgot this piece of data? Like, we're gonna need to pay people overtime to work overnight","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":63,"time":"24:10","seconds":1450,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"because we have to change this patch, and everything has to be QA tested before it goes out. Because you never know. You can put a piece of data in, and it could break something. I've broken games before with data update. Actually, one I did really badly because I'm I flipped a greater than, less than symbol. That was a fun one. But you the simple mistakes. Oh my gosh. Always. So you have to I mean, you have to test that stuff. Right?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":64,"time":"24:34","seconds":1474,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"And so the pipeline for that is long. And if it's not an immediate thing that needs to be done because it's a breaking change, like, you gotta wait.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":65,"time":"24:44","seconds":1484,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So from your perspective, what does it look like for a game studio to actually unlock the full potential of their data? How can they more effectively design their games to get the data they need from the start and then leverage that later?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":66,"time":"25:00","seconds":1500,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"You know, I think it starts with really the question that everyone wants to know. Right? Not just in gaming, everywhere. How do I get value out of my data? Everyone has too much data, and everyone wants to know how do you get value out of it. Nobody wants to just ignore it and leave it on the table. Right? I think in the year 2025, very few people are like, no, I don't use data. I just go off vibes. You know? So if we start from the question of how do I get value out of my data if I'm a game studio?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":67,"time":"25:29","seconds":1529,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"Well, you need to figure out what kinds of questions you're always asking yourself, what kinds of things that you feel like you have a good handle on, and what kinds of things you feel like you have no idea about. Like, when you last shipped something, what were you completely blindsided by? Was there something people loved or something people hated that you should have probably seen coming?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":68,"time":"25:48","seconds":1548,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"Was there something that broke that you probably should have been prepared for? These kinds of things will come up the longer you do it. And the more you realize like, okay, the more postmortems we do, the more retrospectives we do, the more we look at what every executive is asking after every single time we launch, we'll realize, okay, these are the low hanging fruit questions that we're always trying to scramble","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":69,"time":"26:11","seconds":1571,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"to answer. And then you start incorporating data, people, whomever that is, that could be your data engineers who are handling getting the data somewhere, that could be your head of data analytics who's for, who's on the hook for actually answering the questions once the data comes through. It should be all of the above. And you should be including these people in the development process probably pre green light. Like, before every green light session, you should have at least one debrief about like, how are we looking with telemetry? Are we gonna have the things that we need to answer the questions that we deem are important?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":70,"time":"26:43","seconds":1603,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"Like, what are we trying to accomplish with this game? Right? Or is it a sequel? Are we trying to get new people? Like, it might seem obvious, like, you want people to play it. Right? But I think every game probably also has some other things they're trying to do. Are they trying to further some IP? Are they trying to tell a new story? Are they trying to reach a new market? Are they trying to change from hyper casual games to more, like, you know, serious games? Like, what's the studio trying to accomplish with this game? And then what kinds of questions do you think we're gonna answer? You'll never get comprehensive, but if you start","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":71,"time":"27:15","seconds":1635,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"asking yourself that early, you won't find yourself caught flat footed. And I can tell you the worst time to be caught flat footed is often during your beta. Because for players now, it used to be that beta was like, well, if it's, you know, broken in beta, we'll fix it before we ship. Right? Like, beta is where stuff's supposed to be busted. But what you'll find is that you are asking the questions","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":72,"time":"27:43","seconds":1663,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"of your beta cohort that you're gonna ask in the live game. And that's great if you're like, oh crap, we can't actually answer that. That'll happen. But you shouldn't go in totally blind and say, well, we don't have any data. These are all the things we wanna know. We won't know because we didn't have it for the beta, so at least we'll know by the time we get to live.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":73,"time":"28:03","seconds":1683,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"Because you can't act on anything you could have learned in the beta. All you're learning is that you weren't prepared from a data perspective. And then players also have an expectation of betas now, a bit more polished. It's gonna set the stage for how your pre orders are gonna look. It's gonna set the stage for what people's expectations are. It's gonna set the stage for reviews.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-73","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":74,"time":"28:24","seconds":1704,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"And so if you are going into beta thinking beta is when we're gonna make our data decisions, like, you are way too late. Like, even alpha probably. Like, it's a good time to have those questions if if you've waited that long, but that might also be too late. Because depending on how much telemetry you're missing, you're touching a lot of pieces of code, and that's risky.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-74","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":75,"time":"28:47","seconds":1727,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"You know? You really wanna be doing this as you're building so you can kinda derisk it and kind of build gradually as opposed to, like, a mad dash at the end.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-75","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":76,"time":"28:57","seconds":1737,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. You're you're absolutely right that there is, I think, too often, not not just in gaming, but many industries, this mad dash at the end of, like, oh, shoot. We have to go fix this thing that we kind of knew we were gonna have to do, and we didn't plan for it necessarily. And as we've alluded to throughout this conversation, one of the key trends that is reshaping how we leverage data today in gaming and beyond is AI.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-76","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":77,"time":"29:20","seconds":1760,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And while AI has existed in gaming for, as we've referenced, things like NPC behavior for for years, there's obviously a lot of new stuff here with generative AI. How does this traditional game AI contrast with the the new generative AI wave and the updates that have happened to machine learning as it's exploded over the last twenty years. How are you seeing","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-77","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":78,"time":"29:45","seconds":1785,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"all these changes in game data and these improvements in telemetry intersect with the, I guess, the opportunity for gaming studios from new AI technology?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-78","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":79,"time":"29:56","seconds":1796,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"You know what is so funny about this conversation about AI is that as a someone who was involved in both the industry side and now on the vendor side at Databricks, you know, one of the biggest companies in AI, I've seen I've personally witnessed these conversations happening where I'm kinda just a bystander. And the way that came studios and vendors are talking","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-79","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":80,"time":"30:22","seconds":1822,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"past past each other without even realizing when they talk about AI is, like, hilarious to me, but also, like, an easy area for me to make an impact at Databricks because I'm like, hey, guys. Here's where we're completely missing the mark when we talk to them about this. Like, I can tell you you are having three just completely parallel conversations, and no one is actually talking about the same thing. And you think you are, but that's why there's so much friction. Like no one's understanding each other. And that's because of exactly what you just said.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-80","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":81,"time":"30:53","seconds":1853,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"Game studios, developers, gamers have been talking about AI forever. We were probably the first people. Not only did we set the stage for, you know, AI as we think of it today with GPUs and adoption there, we also set the stage for people to even use the word AI. I mean, maybe not, but, like, come on. We popularized it. We're the ones that used it colloquially the most. Right? Even calling someone an NPC now is like a meme. Right? Like, gamer culture is everywhere. And so","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-81","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":82,"time":"31:23","seconds":1883,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"when you have a vendor come to a game studio and say, like, we're gonna help you build intelligent AI, they're first of all thinking in game AI. That's all they're thinking about. They're like, okay. So you're gonna make our NPCs not so stupid. That's great. You know? That's feedback we get all the time. Like, yo. You know? You're we love the game, but, like, how could it be more immersive if so and so didn't have, like, a specific talk track? Like, make it a bit more free form.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-82","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":83,"time":"31:51","seconds":1911,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"That kind of thing is good. But the issue becomes when you come to a game studio and you say, yeah, we're gonna make your AI, like, you know, do x, y, z. Even if we're talking about in game AI. We're gonna make it so smart. It's gonna be able to talk to the player. It's gonna be able to remember everything they did. It's gonna do blah blah blah blah blah blah. All these lofty promises.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-83","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":84,"time":"32:11","seconds":1931,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"What no one, except for me, to toot my own horn, in the vendor space has been able to tell anyone is like, okay, well, how are you gonna do that? Like, you realize we're resource constrained. Where show me. Like, is the compute to do this in the room with us? Like, how? You know? Every in game AI has been, like, hyper optimized to run because that's what game companies that's what gamers have to have had to do going back to Roller Coaster Tycoon.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-84","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":85,"time":"32:40","seconds":1960,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"You gotta make this actually work with what you got. Right? And not everyone has the $70,000 NVIDIA GPU ready to go to rock the latest game that you I wish I had that. Right? I know. Right? Like, we're dealing with min spec, like, the minimum specifications to play the game. So not only that, but the question of LLMs within gaming is super interesting to me because it's like, okay.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-85","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":86,"time":"33:06","seconds":1986,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"In games, traditionally, you have two choices. You will run something on someone's client, so, like, on their PC, on their PlayStation, whatever it is will be locally computed, rendered, whatever. Or you'll run it on a server if you're in a client server architecture. That will be run-in some data center that everyone is connected to that server, and then whatever the server does will talk to the clients and tell them what it decided. Right? Those are your only two options for where to run things, usually. There are constraints on both of those, to your point. A 100%. Right? Like, normal NPCs run client side. Right? Like, they just have to, like, walk around the map and whatever. And some of them are running on the server, like, depending if it's a bot. But if you're playing an open world single player game, most of that's local.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-86","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":87,"time":"33:50","seconds":2030,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"If you're like now we're introducing, let's say, okay, yeah, we'll just put an LLM on it, someone's proprietary LLM that we train to make the NPCs have cool conversations. Where are you going to do that inference? On the client? You could, I guess if someone had a really good GPU. But what are you going to send your trained model to someone's computer and just give them your IP?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-87","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":88,"time":"34:16","seconds":2056,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"Model weights for LLMs are worth hundreds of millions of dollars, billions maybe. Think of OpenAI. Are they gonna give you their trained model weights for ChatGPT? That's their IP.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-88","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":89,"time":"34:29","seconds":2069,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Like I guess they probably never do that. Realistically have to use, like, a local instance of, like, a LAMA model, for example, as, like, really the only real Like an open source something? Yeah. Like, and that's cool. So then how do you","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-89","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":90,"time":"34:42","seconds":2082,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"integrate into that? How do you make sure that it is gonna respect your IP? That it's gonna maintain the voice of the character that you like. Does that feel good? Okay. Well, let's say then you're gonna fine tune it on your own data. Well, now you have an IP issue again. Right? Because now you're leaking your IP back by giving it to people to run locally. Okay. Then you say, well, then run it on the server","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-90","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":91,"time":"35:04","seconds":2104,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"and just send the information down. Game surfers don't typically have GPUs. They don't need them because they're not rendering anything. They don't have screens. It's a server. So, like, where are you so the question becomes, you're telling me you can do this thing, but you're not actually giving me any ideas for how I can realistically do this. Now there's another option.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-91","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":92,"time":"35:28","seconds":2128,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"It's not just the server or the client. You know, you can have something else in the loop. Like, we have this all the time. We have VMs that sit next to servers with the data. Right? Data comes out of the server, goes somewhere else. Like, those aren't the only two options. You can run things and send them down to the client that doesn't come from the server, or you can send information to the server to send to the client.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-92","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":93,"time":"35:48","seconds":2148,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"That's all reasonable. But no one's really talking to game studios about that. They're just saying, oh, yeah. Just put an LLM on it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-93","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":94,"time":"35:55","seconds":2155,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. I think this speaks to the kind of common problem that's happening in a lot of, call it, AI marketing today of just considering LNLLM as a magic bullet instead of a really useful tool that has constraints, to your point. And it feels like the opportunity with gaming for the moment with AI beyond the MPC piece already, which has obviously been there for quite a while, is more about like, okay, how are we leveraging all the data we collect","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-94","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":95,"time":"36:25","seconds":2185,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and applying AI to our analytics? Or are there QA opportunities with LMs, and and throwing them at games earlier so that you can have that user experience of, like, all these disparate testing? I'm I'm curious if there's much happening in those directions so far.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-95","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":96,"time":"36:42","seconds":2202,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"See those as being much easier problems to solve and much more realistic problems to solve. So specifically with AI with your data, right, the good thing about modern data infrastructure, Databricks in particular, but every good data provider and product suite is offering something similar, is that once you have your data in a place where it is centralized, it's governed well, so you're legally compliant,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-96","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":97,"time":"37:10","seconds":2230,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"you have everything a place that needs to be, You have all of your reporting built on top of it. You're understanding your business cases. You're building your business ready, gold standard, gold layer of data. Principles handled. There are tons of products that are integrating directly into your data warehouse, directly into your data catalogs, like with Unity Catalog and Databricks, like, getting directly in there and you can get AI natively within the platform.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-97","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":98,"time":"37:42","seconds":2262,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"So if you have good enough metadata, which is just a description of what all your data actually is, which is actually harder to come by than you would think in gaming. But once you have good metadata, you can ask AI to almost anything about your data. Right? Like self-service analytics is here in a big way. Like, in a way that even a year ago, I wouldn't have believed it would have been possible and it had accelerated this quickly.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-98","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":99,"time":"38:07","seconds":2287,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"So, like, we're opening up doors for nontechnical people, people who don't write SQL every day, to ask questions of their data in plain language where they can say, like, hey. How did, I don't know. How did that skin sell in the in last week's, like, you know, 04/20 sale? Like, Google, we did a collaboration. You know? Did people like it? Or, you know, what types of skins are people loving?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-99","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":100,"time":"38:35","seconds":2315,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"Or what was our most popular game mode in the last week? Did we see any crazy things pop up on Steam this weekend? You know? Have we seen any data outages? All of that stuff can be somewhat automated and somewhat self-service, which is crazy and incredible. So that's part of the AI that when you go to game studios and you're like, We're going help you build AI. They're thinking in game AI.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-100","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":101,"time":"39:01","seconds":2341,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"They're not thinking, oh, I can have an exec self-service their small data questions so that my data team can continue answering the big ones and putting together the long form financial reporting, putting together these really intensive deep dives and experimentation, like a b test, causal inference things that we're doing. And they can just ask the silly question that they had about, like, do people like the new, like, you know, map?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-101","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":102,"time":"39:26","seconds":2366,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"Like, the things that are, like, interesting but, you know, kind of derail conversations when you're talking about longer term analytics projects. And then the other one you brought up is very interesting, which is a bit touches on the NPC conversation kind of, but it also touches on machine learning and advances in machine learning, advances in in game bots that we've had going back probably ten years.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-102","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":103,"time":"39:50","seconds":2390,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"And reinforcement learning is big here, and I'm talking about how do you help your human QA team by building more automated QA and reinforcing all the work that they do with automated QA bots. And that's also not an easy question to answer because you have to have a really tight pipeline. Because, basically, what you're doing is you're using your human QA testers","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-103","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":104,"time":"40:20","seconds":2420,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"to train the reinforcement learning bots, how they do their jobs. But then every time you introduce an update, the human testers have to take the lead because these bots don't understand these mechanics on their own. They learn from people. And they need to learn from QA because you don't wanna have them learn from players playtesting because now you're backwards. You're having Yeah. Players jumping","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-104","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":105,"time":"40:45","seconds":2445,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"The players are lunatics. Also, you don't want your users to be your testers. Right? You need to test this stuff before users ever see it. And so this ends up being a really interesting question and an interesting problem space. I've seen a lot of movement in the, like, automated QA. I don't even know what other people are calling it. Yeah. Just automated QA","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-105","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":106,"time":"41:03","seconds":2463,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"arena. I haven't seen anything yet that's, like, fully compelling to where I'd say, okay. I'm willing to, like, smoke test with a fleet of these bots and trust it. I definitely wouldn't trust it for a full QA pass. But I do think where it's gonna help is, like I said, if you have these crazy, you've gotta do an overnight test, and you have to just get good enough, and you need these bots to run through along with a couple of humans, and you don't have that many people online.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-106","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":107,"time":"41:34","seconds":2494,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"I think that that would probably be the best use case scenario right now. Where as long as it's not fully breaking something, it has to go out because it's some sort of critical patch. But yeah, I think there's gonna be more advancements there as well. You just have to be mindful of like, anything, what does your what does your pipeline look like? Are there other","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-107","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":108,"time":"41:55","seconds":2515,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"use cases or opportunities that you're seeing for AI and modern gaming today?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-108","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":109,"time":"42:01","seconds":2521,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"Oh, tons. I'm building something right now with a group of people where we're pulling in Steam reviews. And not only are we, you know, leveraging that to try to do some of our localization, so, like, can we train an LLM or just use a prebuilt one? Can it understand the colloquialisms of gaming, and can it effectively translate different languages, understand sentiment of reviews?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-109","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":110,"time":"42:27","seconds":2547,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"But also, can you then generate reports based on those reviews regardless of the language, but including localization information so that you know, like, oh, hey, there's something wrong with, like, the French version of the game, into, like, emailed reports for execs. Because that was something that we saw a lot was we had our community managers online basically twenty four seven","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-110","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":111,"time":"42:51","seconds":2571,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"having to scroll through Twitter, which, like, they should get a bonus just for having to spend time in there. And having to scroll through Reddit, which again Maybe a bonus again. Yeah. Yeah. Double bonus. And having to just, like, scroll through all these things and try to synthesize the information on their own. And the way a lot of that used to work is you'd have your community managers doing that. And then they'd say, okay, a lot of people are talking about,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-111","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":112,"time":"43:18","seconds":2598,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"like, I don't know, the French version of, like, Bowser. Like, he sounds weird. And then they'd have to set up listening on their social listening tools for, like, French Bowser. And then they can go through the data that they're scraping and find instances of that. But someone has to know that they need to look for French Bowser to begin with. You end up in this chicken and egg scenario that you kind of have to know your problems in order to look for them in your massive data.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-112","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":113,"time":"43:43","seconds":2623,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"And where LLMs succeed a lot here is that you don't have to give it any pre you don't have to say, Hey, go look for Bowser and tell me, like, where you see an issue here. You can just say, what are people talking about? What do they care about? Has there been any emergent conversations that seem different from what you're used to seeing? Are there any topics that seem like they're gaining traction?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-113","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":114,"time":"44:03","seconds":2643,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"And then it can say, oh, yeah. People are mad about this French Bowser. Like, he does not sound right.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-114","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":115,"time":"44:10","seconds":2650,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Honestly, I'm just struggling right now, because I I am in my head now picturing Bowser with a French accent, and I'm gonna have to go find this after the show. So","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-115","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":116,"time":"44:18","seconds":2658,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"I just made it up. But that would be hilarious. Ooey.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-116","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":117,"time":"44:24","seconds":2664,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So I'm curious. As we're wrapping up here, do you see gaming continuing to push AI forward as it enables as it has enabled the GPU revolution or in other ways in the coming years? Maybe it's gonna simply add French and Spanish Bowsers, and we can experience those for fun. But, you know, what other ways is gaming gonna impact AI development going forward?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-117","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":118,"time":"44:47","seconds":2687,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"I think, you know, in the ways that it continues to or has always historically. Like, gaming is really, for me, the the space that I think humans probably other than, like, writing. It's like the open world where humans can be as creative as they want. Right? Like, it's where you're the only limit to what you can accomplish is your imagination. And so as we want to be more and more imaginative","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-118","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":119,"time":"45:12","seconds":2712,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"with the worlds that we occupy, as we wanna do more and more with our technology, as we want more and more people to experience things simultaneously online, like, that all happens in games. Right? You think of, like, Fortnite, the events that they have. They've basically built best in class online networking systems. I've gone to concerts in Fortnite, which is weird to say. Yeah. No. But, like, when you think about the feats of engineering that it takes to put those concerts on, you realize, like, nothing would have ever propelled","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-119","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":120,"time":"45:51","seconds":2751,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"the needs of real time online networking and multiplayer experiences if it wasn't for gaming. Right? Like, who else would have been innovating in that space? Zoom? Like, maybe kind of, but they still can't even really handle big webinars. So, like, it's it's gamers who, like, they wanna do this stuff, and they're like, can we now? No. Can we figure it out? Hell yeah. So","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-120","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":121,"time":"46:15","seconds":2775,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"it's that spirit of just like, this is what I wanna build. This is what I wanna create. This is the kind of world I wanna see, and we're gonna do it. And it's so funny because I I see a lot of people talking about, you know, there is this inherent friction between creatives and engineers where they're like, wouldn't it be cool if we could, you know, whatever? And, like, my one of my favorite engineers I used to work with would say, like, yeah. If only it wasn't for the pesky speed of light. You know? Like Sure. Like, that's always the limit. Like, there's always some inherent friction.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-121","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":122,"time":"46:44","seconds":2804,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"But the good thing is is that, like, the creatives I've worked with, like, their goals are so lofty and not grounded in things like reality or the speed of light or, like, you know, physics or where the rest of us live That, like, they force us to, like, constantly push forward. And while we might joke about it, like, there's so many things today we wouldn't have if it wasn't for gaming, and I think it's gonna be who knows where we're gonna end up? I think it's gonna be crazy, though. Is a great note to end on. And honestly, for anyone who wants to see where this all goes, I highly recommend following Carly on LinkedIn, where she shares so much interesting content and perspectives","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-122","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":123,"time":"47:20","seconds":2840,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"on the industry and what's happening with AI. Carly, I am deeply appreciative that you joined me for this conversation today. It's been a ton of fun. Where else can our listeners go if they wanna learn more about you and about your work? You can find me, like,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-123","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":124,"time":"47:34","seconds":2854,"speaker":"Databricks' Carly Taylor","text":"on LinkedIn, for sure. And I also write longer form content on Substack.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-124","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":125,"time":"47:39","seconds":2859,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Fantastic. I'm gonna have to subscribe to that as well. And definitely check out all the incredible stuff that Carly is doing both with g g AI and Databricks. There's a ton of really cool AI and gaming things coming down the pipe, and we'll link everything, including Carly's LinkedIn and all these other links, in the show notes today. So Carly, it's been a distinct pleasure. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-125","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":126,"time":"48:01","seconds":2881,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And to everyone who is listening, if you love video games as much as we do, maybe drop your favorite games in the comments. If you're watching on YouTube, we'd love to hear from you. Is there a game that got you excited about programming and technology? Or is this something where you're just kind of interested and you're following along? Are you a Stardew Valley person? Stellaris, that's me. Mario Kart, what playing? Are Is it are you Warzone here with Carly? French French Bowser.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-126","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor","episode":26,"guid":"5d6ae02f-6602-4820-8daa-1fb82cce9ab5","episodeTitle":"Why Gamers Paved the Way for AI | Databricks' Carly Taylor","publishedAt":"2025-06-04","segmentIndex":127,"time":"48:27","seconds":2907,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Honestly, I may have to put French Bowser in like I'm gonna have to like sneak a French Bowser I'll in some find him with little beret. I mean, feels I will say if it's probably already a thing that I can just go look up. But if not, it's absolutely something I'm going to have to generate from So here's an AI use And while you're leaving that comment, make sure to like, subscribe, and follow Carly on her Substack and or her LinkedIn. Thank you so much for tuning in at Chain of Thought. We'll see you back here next week. And Carly, thank you again. It's been great. Thank you. Bye.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/26-why-gamers-paved-the-way-for-ai-databricks-carly-taylor/#t-127","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:06","seconds":6,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I'm delighted to welcome you back to Chain of Thought and to welcome two of my co hosts back as well. We've got the co founders of Galileo. Well, two out of three today, Vikram Chatterji, CEO and Atindriyo Sanyal, CTO. Gentlemen, thank you so much for being here with us today and for sharing your insights with our listeners. Of course.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:23","seconds":23,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Great to be here, Conor.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":2,"time":"0:24","seconds":24,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":3,"time":"0:24","seconds":24,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Likewise.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":4,"time":"0:26","seconds":26,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I think it's a particularly poignant time to have you both here because not only is there a lot going on for Galileo on the product transformation side as evaluation and reliability have become key themes for AI in 2025. But we're now a few months into the year. We're recording this right at the end of April, and the pace of AI innovation hasn't slowed. In fact, it's,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":5,"time":"0:50","seconds":50,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"maybe to no one's surprise, sped up quite a bit. Every week brings new models, new techniques, new conversations about where this technology is heading. Vikram, let's start with you. What key themes are you paying attention to thus far in 2025, and what are you seeing for the next few months?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":6,"time":"1:04","seconds":64,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"I think the big theme for 2025 has been the move from generative AI being this tool that was used for just, you know, chat completion and generation towards actual task completions","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":7,"time":"1:18","seconds":78,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"and actions. And in my head, that means a lot for the enterprise because it elevates the conversation from being all about just building a bunch of chatbots to actually automating tasks in the enterprise or actually getting higher ROI overall from an OpEx and CapEx perspective. And, basically, I am talking about agents. It's an overblown term to some extent, and we can talk more about that. But the idea that these these language models are basically becoming, like, these operating systems that are powering these","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":8,"time":"1:50","seconds":110,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"these actions are being adopted for this use case very rapidly. So number one, that's brought in a lot of excitement and interest, but that also in the beginning of the year brought in a lot of skepticism around, like, how real is this? Can these tasks actually be completed by these AI agents? What does this even mean? You're seeing a lot of definitions flying around by, you know, all sorts of founders around, like, this is my definition. This is my definition. But at the end of the day, it's basically task completion. What's really interesting from a secondary theme is because of this huge emphasis on wanting to move towards task completion, just given the amount of","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":9,"time":"2:23","seconds":143,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"value that can be uncovered for the enterprise using this over the course of the next decade. There's a huge gold rush from the middleware providers around that, can we build the right orchestration system for this? Can we build out the right kind of frameworks for this? You're seeing this huge rush from the you know, OpenAI came out with this agents SDK. You have","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":10,"time":"2:43","seconds":163,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Anthropic came out with MCP because working with tools was tough. You have the, you know, the a two way from from Google recently. Some of them are they don't mean anything. They're actually just shallow libraries. But from a marketing perspective, everyone just wants their stamp out there around, like, you know, we have something to from a middleware perspective. But what this means in my perspective is it's it's all coming. When everyone's working really hard, the entire industry is working very hard to make something happen, it means that the entire system is coming in place to make the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":11,"time":"3:13","seconds":193,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"the top level applications around task completion become more of a reality. I that being said, third observation has been that's not there yet, but we're seeing this in fits and starts. So some startups have already managed to do this in a really effective way, and some enterprises, some of the largest banks I'm talking to, they've also managed to actually build out, you know, these","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":12,"time":"3:35","seconds":215,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"AI applications powered by different kinds of tools. They build their own internal tools. They've built they use their own build their own MCP servers around that. It's becoming more of a reality, and that to me is a big, big shift, which by the end of the year is gonna become much more like how we talk about maybe RAC based systems or prompt engineered solutions","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":13,"time":"3:56","seconds":236,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"now, which is, you know, very much the norm. This is the next level up in that in that in that journey. And I think this is this is the biggest shift and biggest unlock from an AI value creation perspective. Atin, what's your perspective?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":14,"time":"4:10","seconds":250,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Yeah. I kinda echo what Vikram is saying for sure. I think there's a lot of, you know, just overall high energy and excitement around emergent infrastructure,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":15,"time":"4:22","seconds":262,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"around the LLM, which was kind of the center of the solar system. And but we've moved far beyond that to to Vikram's point around actually doing things, doing tasks, taking action. But what's most exciting, I think, for me is the we kind of have a standard of data exchange and communication kind of being set up, the advancements in MCP with MCP servers, etcetera. They are this attempt to sort of standardize communication around the LLMs.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":16,"time":"4:52","seconds":292,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"And we've already seen very early sort of early success with certain frameworks. There's already a lot of MCP servers, which are open source out there, and they host a whole bunch of these tools which are augmenting the LLM to actually take action. But then the question becomes what is the accuracy of the action and whether the the action whether we actually achieved what we intended to do or not. So a lot of","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":17,"time":"5:20","seconds":320,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"great advancements made just in the last four months, agentic frameworks, of course, being the biggest of them, but also, you know, a lot of multimodal launches with g p t four v and deep s e c v l. It was a paper they wrote in 2024, but they recently launched it a couple months ago. So all this will kind of come together to just give a more enhanced sort of experience around","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":18,"time":"5:43","seconds":343,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"language models in general, but also kind of set the standard for how to build a good, robust, reliable, generative AI applications in a more centralized manner.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":19,"time":"5:56","seconds":356,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And multimodal evals are increasingly a topic of conversation as well, which is obviously something we are are working on internally here. I I'd love to get thoughts from both of you around the direction that Galileo is planning to go adapting to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":20,"time":"6:12","seconds":372,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"leveraging some of these new frameworks, whether that's ATA a A2A agencies, ACP that we're obviously partners with Cisco and others on, or MCP. Atin, I know you've been experimenting there. You're already talking to the team about it. And then, obviously, we have plans to launch more on the multimodal front coming soon. What are the key things that people should be looking out for as far as Galileo's product and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":21,"time":"6:39","seconds":399,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"the vision that the two of you have for it?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":22,"time":"6:41","seconds":401,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Yeah. Maybe I can take a first stab at this. So so multimodal will happen. I think there's enough proof of just very high quality agentic frameworks already being released that support multimodal. These models have a significantly better understanding of multimodal data, and we're already seeing even in the enterprise, are seeing","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":23,"time":"7:06","seconds":426,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"image based q and a systems sort of prop up in sort of in the prototypical phase. There'll be a lot of acceleration on this front in the remainder of the year. What it means for evals, I think it means a bunch of things. Firstly, how do you adapt to sort of this new landscape of how people are building end to end applications? That includes the ID itself in which you are actually sitting and building the app. Right? There's already in the zero to one phase, there's a lot of potential for errors","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":24,"time":"7:40","seconds":460,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"and performance issues and, you know, we'll probably talk about white coding a bit in a bit, but there's a whole host of compounding issues that lead to the proclivity of errors in Gen AI apps right from when the developer is building. So from an eval standpoint, it's all about how do you adapt to this new pattern of development going beyond, say, standardized logging and getting insights on a UI.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":25,"time":"8:11","seconds":491,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"That's why I personally talk a lot about evaluation tools and evaluation agents. These are these composable sort of functions, you will, that sit right where you are. You can install an, you know, eval agent as a as a tool in your IDE in Cursor that will automatically fix the potential issues for you. So eval kind of expands itself into this broader idea of AI reliability","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":26,"time":"8:39","seconds":519,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"because in the erstwhile world, you talk about evaluations and observability. And with the era of agents, there's so many new components and you truly see end to end systems building. Evals and observability sounds like a point in time activity. And what you really need is a sort of a broader reliability story where these metrics and these little evals, they're kind of means to an end, which are,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":27,"time":"9:04","seconds":544,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"in the end, want high quality end to end applications built. But the form factor it takes would be in the form of things like tools, things like agents, where you have a separate MCP server, for example, that only does evals, which you can point your app to and will automatically start fixing and taking action on on your application.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":28,"time":"9:24","seconds":564,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Absolutely agreed. And we're seeing this increasingly as these new roles begin to be established at different enterprises,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":29,"time":"9:32","seconds":572,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"whether it's partners we work with like HP and Databricks or elsewhere. We're seeing people who are focused on evals, who are focused on reliability as, you know, maybe even we're going to see AI reliability engineers. We're seeing AI PMs come to the forefront. And while observability and evaluation are crucial to how they're getting their job done, really what we're delivering with that is helping them to create effective applications,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":30,"time":"9:55","seconds":595,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"create continuous learning and continuous iteration loops, ideally ones that can be fed through automated systems, and have reliable applications that users can trust. So think I that's a great point, Aten. And, Vikram, I know that's something you're hearing a lot with the enterprises that you're talking with as well.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":31,"time":"10:10","seconds":610,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Yeah. Because if if you think about at the end of the day, what people","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":32,"time":"10:16","seconds":616,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"care about, what AI leaders care about, AI engineers care about is they just wanna be able to build out AI applications, whether it's agentic or otherwise, at scale in a very reliable way. To your question before about multi model, whether it's speech, video, image, or even if it's with basic text, I think what's happening right now is the systems are these are to use the word from Databricks. Right? The compound AI systems","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":33,"time":"10:43","seconds":643,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"that that are being developed. These compound AI systems are getting more and more complex. But Dave from Databricks had coined that craze of compound AI systems maybe about a year and a half ago, and that was when we were in the world of prompt engineering, and we just had a model and a prompt, and Rag came about, and he's like, this is a compound system now. But, you know, if he if he looks back at this right now, and it's compounded even more. So the systems are becoming more and more complex. And the reason I bring this up is because from a developer's perspective or from an AI leader's perspective in the enterprise,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":34,"time":"11:16","seconds":676,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"they're looking at this compound system and thinking of it as comprising of a bunch of different things all in one. Right? Where you have you have a multi modal model there, which is doing some kind of image to text generation, looking at a PDF, the and next one is gonna be taking taking desks and kind of summarize that, and then it's a third and the fourth one. So there's a there's a series of different kinds of steps that are being taken, and there might be some multi modality in there. There might not be. There might be some rag in there. There might not be. There'll be multi torn applications from a chat perspective. They might not be. So the systems are extremely complex.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":35,"time":"11:50","seconds":710,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"But to your point about multi agentic systems and how do we look into those, I see that as, like, you know, one aspect of this entire compound system, which is why, like, from a from a developer's perspective and from a leader's perspective, at the end of the day, they care about how do you build these reliable, super complex compound AI systems now, which includes all of these different pieces,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":36,"time":"12:15","seconds":735,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"which is very hard to debug, very hard to observe, very hard to understand, and there are maybe 40 different failure modes here. One small aspect of that is, like, one one aspect of that is real time experimentation, real time monitoring. One aspect is, like, can I have real time protections? Can I have complete cost transparency? Can I have a governance engine in place here? So there's a bunch of different stuff here, like, which which comes in place, which is why the the overarching narrative from an enterprise perspective has always been, like, what's the what's the AI reliability platform I can use, which can be a partner for the long term for these super complex alarm systems that my team is building and make sure that this works at scale.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":37,"time":"12:57","seconds":777,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"That's where Galileo sits, and that's where we've been helping some of the largest enterprises in the world, and we'll continue to do that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":38,"time":"13:02","seconds":782,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Absolutely. And it seems clear that as enterprises create multi agent systems, compound systems across different multimodal use cases, there's this increasing need, as you've mentioned, and as Aten's highlighted, for not just evals as a point of time solution,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":39,"time":"13:21","seconds":801,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"but as a mechanism that works throughout the AI development life cycle and whereby you are causing improvement flywheels to occur, and you're creating systems that work better than they did three months before or four months before. And I love that product vision for the company as this reliability platform for AI engineers, AIPMs, AI builders, whatever their names may be.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":40,"time":"13:46","seconds":826,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Are there particular parts of that product vision that you would wanna highlight that you expect to see come true for Galileo over the next six, nine months? Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":41,"time":"13:54","seconds":834,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"I can I'm gonna get a quick stab at this spread. Like, there's some core beliefs we have, Conor, just based on what we're seeing in the enterprise and we're seeing across our customers. And those beliefs typically translate into products","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":42,"time":"14:09","seconds":849,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"eventually. One of them is this notion of, you know, just overall AI reliability in production, and that aspect means more about it it pertains more to the enterprises that already are in production that require real time scalable guardrailing. They require a wave such that in regulated industries, especially every single query that's coming going that's coming into the system as well as every response that's coming out and everything in between needs to be guardrail based","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":43,"time":"14:37","seconds":877,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"on specific kinds of guardrails that are built for their specific use case and do that at millisecond latencies and a low cost. So there's definitely that aspect, which is one core belief that we have there. You know, AI reliability and production is gonna be a really, really big thing, and it's gonna become even harder and harder as a problem to solve for enterprises","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":44,"time":"14:57","seconds":897,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"as we go along. So that's that's one as big aspect of things. The other thing that we've been thinking a lot more about from a belief perspective is there is a big measurement problem in in the world of AI. We've always thought about that as our north star since the very beginning of the company. And I mentioned this in every single time I talk to an enterprise. Like, we there is no f one score that we had in the NLP world for classic classification tasks in the world of generative AI, and even the f one score wasn't a very good metric.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":45,"time":"15:24","seconds":924,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Right now, with generative AI, it's it's all of that is gone. So how do you actually build a high quality system if you can't measure it properly? So a very large part of what we'll be building out is gonna is gonna revolve around tripling down on our on our LUNA metrics engine that we've built out, which is basically, like, this entire factory where you can, like, create metrics. You can test metrics. You you can make them low latency very easily and make sure that they're high quality at scale auto adapts. So there's a huge emphasis around just r and d and algorithms","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":46,"time":"15:54","seconds":954,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"and infrastructure on the metric side, and all of that collectively is our LUNA piece just to solve this measurement problem of AI. Right? And all of that is gonna power the your point of the SLDC of the AI application life cycle all the way from, like, offline experimentation to CIC, to online, to real time. All of that is powered by this core platform. That's the core of what we're trying to solve. That's the the that solve the measurement problem at scale. That's the second belief that we have. The the third belief that we have is these complex AI systems need to be tamed. Now what does that mean? Like, if you look at most","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":47,"time":"16:28","seconds":988,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"systems today, the focus of the industry is becoming more and more on the output. Like, is the output good? Is the output bad? Is the system fine? Is it hallucinating? What's happening now is because these systems are getting so complex and compounded, it's also becoming very important to have helped the developer understand the shape of their system and understand where the failure boards are. If you think of a multi agentic system where you have, like, hundreds of different traces,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":48,"time":"16:51","seconds":1011,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"dozens of potential tools to be called, No one's gonna go trace by trace by trace and try to look for where things are going wrong. It's just not gonna happen. It's it's it's a fool's errand to look for that. So the question becomes, like, can you start to build algorithms and build systems in place such that you can tame these very large complex systems. And we're working on a lot of very interesting solutions there from an algorithmic perspective to just automatically","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":49,"time":"17:14","seconds":1034,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"take in these millions of of traces, millions of different input signals from all the way from the code to the output generation, etcetera, to automatically give the developer an overarching, you know, bird's eye signal of exactly where the failure modes are and then take action on those signals and actually tell the developer what the actions should be just to truly uplevel the nature of of their development life cycle. And I think that's very necessary with multi agentic systems because if you think of it that way, and I'll pause right after this, but if you think of this, what what's happening is agents are like workers in a room. Right? You have the managers, you have the workers, and then now they're all going and doing things,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":50,"time":"17:51","seconds":1071,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"and there are these tools that they can use. But, you know, if you if you ask somebody about, like, what's where's where are things going wrong? It's not gonna be, like, you're gonna stop a worker and be like, show me everything you've done over time. And now that we figured this out, you need a summary overall and some kind of a metrics dashboard and an overall summarization dashboard of here's what's going wrong quantitatively. Here's what's going wrong qualitatively. And that's the only way you can then start a root cause analyze. I think all of that's gonna be necessary","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":51,"time":"18:15","seconds":1095,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"to aim the complex system. You're saying we need a Jira for agents?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":52,"time":"18:18","seconds":1098,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Because that's kind of what I'm hearing here. Hopefully, Jira plus plus plus.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":53,"time":"18:23","seconds":1103,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Yeah. True. I had a couple more points, to what Vikram was saying. Certainly, the measurement problem, I think we discovered that this right at the onset of the company which was years ago which is, you know, in general AI has a measurement problem.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":54,"time":"18:38","seconds":1118,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"The other thing that we realized was there is no one stop shop metric that fixes all your pains. And this was a realization which we made early on in our journey which is why we've gone down the route of baking in things like auto adaptation into into frameworks like platforms like Luna that we've built. And in the modern world, it's kind of taken this form of","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":55,"time":"19:04","seconds":1144,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"evaluation agents really because they're adapting, which means they're doing the task of getting better, figuring out mistakes on their own, and adapting to your data. So that's one aspect of it, the adaptability, which makes them agentic in nature. The second aspect to the point about taming a complex system, it is true that there's a million different parts to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":56,"time":"19:27","seconds":1167,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"an end to end GenAI app, but it's also that it can be built in a million different ways. There's no limited set of 12 ways that you can build an end to end app, especially with the advent of a two a and any kind of agentic framework that you take. What they're allowing the user to do is giving the power back to the users. That's inversion of control. So now the developer has a lot of composability power to be able to construct","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":57,"time":"19:56","seconds":1196,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"a system the way they want. What does that mean for evals though? For us, it's not only to adapt our metrics to to, you know, be accurate over time and constantly be accurate. That's one aspect of it. But also think just to point to one feature of Galileo, is we have a very powerful SDK, which not only takes the shape and form of Python libraries or TypeScript libraries,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":58,"time":"20:23","seconds":1223,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"but also, of course, APIs, but also tools and agents there, which can fit into the modern workflow of, say if you're building in Cursor or any kind of IDE which gives you this Copilot like experience which is automatically fixing your code. How do we take all the the goodness of things like Luna, etcetera, and shape it in a form which is composable, which meets the user where they are, and it takes action","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":59,"time":"20:50","seconds":1250,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"at every stage of the life cycle. Where it's zero to one where they're building the app, we want them to not make the early level mistakes, so you want to use our agents there. Then there's the CICD bit where your application's moving from dev to staging to prod. And then there's in the prod where you want more real time guardrailing and observability, but it's the same sort of ingredients behind the scenes which are sort of pow part of this one powerful platform, and that's what Galileo gives the user.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":60,"time":"21:17","seconds":1277,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"In an era of vibe coding and increasing","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":61,"time":"21:21","seconds":1281,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"LLM generation of software, it feels like this need for observability, this need for robust testing and evaluation is more important than ever to ensure reliability and to ensure trust in applications, particularly as we're building these multi agentic systems. I have to say, I'm really excited by the fact that people can also now try the platform for free and can have enterprise grade evals,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":62,"time":"21:49","seconds":1309,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"can test it out, can give us feedback over at galileo.ai. I think there's a massive opportunity for us to help developers to increase the reliability of their applications while also getting the feedback we need to continue to hone in on how we solve this measurement problem. I wonder if either of you is seeing, maybe Atin, if you want to start, any sort of increase in the need for these reliability systems,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":63,"time":"22:17","seconds":1337,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"whether it's the observation piece, the evaluation piece, or otherwise, based off of the shift to LLM driven or at least assisted cogen?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":64,"time":"22:27","seconds":1347,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"What Wipe Coding has done is is it's made developers 10x more faster at getting to a particular outcome. You know, it would take you, you know, a few weeks to build something that you can build in an hour. So props to, you know, all the innovation that has happened towards it, even though wipe coding has a bit of a negative connotation.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":65,"time":"22:48","seconds":1368,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"It is true that if you completely blindly wipe code, you will end up with a pile of crap and which is not deployable. It will be a suboptimal application.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":66,"time":"22:56","seconds":1376,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Please nobody here look at my GitHub.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":67,"time":"23:00","seconds":1380,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Yeah. I mean, same here. So it's great for prototyping, but there's certain standard sort of thoughtful design patterns. I always say that we've kind of gone back to the era of 2019","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":68,"time":"23:15","seconds":1395,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"or even 2009 or even fifty years ago where we discovered there's a limited number of ways where you can build very high quality applications. And the same sort of design patterns are reemerging in this new era with the LLM in the mix. So wipe coding allows you to be efficient at the lowest layer of coding, which is just brass tacks writing boilerplate code. And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":69,"time":"23:39","seconds":1419,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"any developer worth their salt will probably tell you that. Over time, people have discovered ways to efficiently wipe code or thoughtfully wipe code by prompting the LLM back and making making sure it doesn't make the same mistake, etcetera, etcetera. Even then, there's only a limit to how much you can scale a very high quality application with white coding, which really","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":70,"time":"24:04","seconds":1444,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"accentuates the need for evaluation and reliability in general. And that that's where we kind of come in. I think for us, it becomes more important to, like I've been saying, adapt to the new sort of world in which we are in, which is developers are using Copilots. We need to be, you know, in line with them and meet them where they are. But the fundamental problem,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":71,"time":"24:31","seconds":1471,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"like Vikram said earlier, is still the same whether you ask a developer or a leader, which is that I just want to build a high quality application that is deterministic, which is reliable, which gives me outputs that I can expect, and an efficient way to root cause it and take action on whenever things go rogue.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":72,"time":"24:48","seconds":1488,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"How should developers or technical leaders who are building AI systems","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":73,"time":"24:54","seconds":1494,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"think about balancing, seeking reliability while also leaving in the magic that is hallucinations and iterations, that the AI is creating? Because it's a fine line to walk depending on the type of application you're developing and, you know, with the agents that you're you're putting loose in the world. But at the same time, if we completely try to eliminate this creativity,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-73","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":74,"time":"25:19","seconds":1519,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"we are also getting rid of some of the secret sauce behind AI. So, Vikram, I'm curious from your perspective how you're seeing enterprises that we're working with adapt to this problem and solve for solve for reliability while also keeping the upside of of leveraging nondeterministic systems.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-74","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":75,"time":"25:36","seconds":1536,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"If you talk about wide coding along with the AI reliability problem, I I do think there's they're trying to solve two different two different things. That one is for","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-75","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":76,"time":"25:47","seconds":1547,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"speed of building AI systems, and the other one is quality of the AI systems. And I think both of those are going to be important, and both of those are going to be continuously accelerated from an industry perspective. I think the idea of wide coding is gonna come from the idea, like, you know, you have to build these AI apps faster. A lot of the context for building out these AI applications","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-76","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":77,"time":"26:10","seconds":1570,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"turns out is, as has always been, right, the business logic side of thing has always been a very big part of software development, right, in different shape forms. It's interesting how, like, now the the business logic is coming up even closer to the, you know, the actual coding layer by using wide coding, where, Atin, it's, like, incredibly technical, like, on our maybe for you and me, you and I can actually build out","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-77","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":78,"time":"26:32","seconds":1592,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"apps much faster now with just using our knowledge of the world and just, like, figuring things out quickly using, I don't know, Level and a bunch of other tools. So that's interesting from a speed perspective. I don't, but that's that's separate from to Althin's point from thinking about this as, like, a production AI application out in the world where you have to have the right kind of guardrails in place. You have to have the right kind of safeguards in place for making sure that it's actually reliable.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-78","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":79,"time":"26:59","seconds":1619,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"As an example, with agentic systems, right, it's much more about just better software engineering principles all over again. You just have to make the right kind of tool calls. You have to have the right kind of, you know, functions and different kinds of conditional statements to make sure that you're calling the right stuff, and now increasingly making sure that you're giving the right kind of instructions to the to the model to choose the right kind of prompts.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-79","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":80,"time":"27:21","seconds":1641,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"And and so, you know, from a reliability perspective, it gets back into what are the best practices that you're using over there. If you're just white coding, then are you are you missing out on some of the robustness that you might need as in the enterprise to actually make sure that this can see the light of day as a as an actual AI product. So I do think they're two different problems. You as much as white coding can help in accelerating from going from the zero to one,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-80","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":81,"time":"27:47","seconds":1667,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"that one to production is still gonna be something where, to Atin's point, you you need an expert in the loop where you can actually help get to the other side. But that doesn't preclude the idea that you absolutely need AI reliability. To your second part of the question, Conor, which is about, like, nondeterministic systems, that era is very much upon us, right, at this point. I think about a year and a half, could have said that,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-81","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":82,"time":"28:10","seconds":1690,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"is this like is this like Bitcoin or Web three, which never made any sense to me, still doesn't as a market. But for but is AI like that? It's absolutely not. It's actually showing a bunch of value in the enterprise. Has it absolutely arrived in the enterprise and everybody's seeing a bunch of ROI? Not yet. Lot of OpEx reduction, not a lot of increase in revenue from use cases perspective. I think that's gonna change, especially with agents now.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-82","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":83,"time":"28:35","seconds":1715,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Given that nondeterministic systems and nondeterministic software is already a here and now thing, where the buck has moved to is this question of, as an enterprise leader, should I or should I not adopt AI? Right? And the ones who are saying I'll not adopt AI are gonna go the way of the rotary form. They all know that. So given that they're all gonna be adopting AI at some point, now the pucks move to this question of how do I make sure it's reliable?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-83","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":84,"time":"29:01","seconds":1741,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"And that's kind of where these platforms like Galileo come in, and it's gonna get more and more important for us to be able to think of solving their problem in a very holistic way.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-84","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":85,"time":"29:10","seconds":1750,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"I think I'd love to give my two cents on this one because it's an interesting question. I know creativity versus determinism was this one of the first questions that was asked when ChatGPT happened and LLMs were upon us.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-85","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":86,"time":"29:26","seconds":1766,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"I think in the agentic era, that question is a bit dated. It makes less sense in terms of, number one, with the innovation on the model side. On the LLM side, they're actually much better at language. And, like, if you, you know, rewind the clock maybe twelve to fifteen months ago, someone could easily detect that, oh, the output has come out of OpenAI versus Anthropic. They were distinctly different. And now these models are a lot better to you can ask them to write in any style, and, you know, they will adapt to your style. So there's a very marked improvement","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-86","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":87,"time":"30:03","seconds":1803,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"in the ability for these models to spit out language. But in the agentic era, it's less about the language itself. It's more about the actions and the outcomes of the application. And what people are really trying to do, the modern developer, is build an end to end system which is primarily software, and you wanna inject LMs at the right places to be able to do the right things for you,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-87","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":88,"time":"30:30","seconds":1830,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"which were not possible erstwhile. And in the end, your system is compound in the sense of it has traditional software components, it has LMs in the mix doing just the right things where you don't want hallucinations, etcetera. And the outcome of the end to end system can be language if it's a Q and A system, but it can also be something else. You have many long running agents where the output is not a piece of text. It's something else and it's more about actions.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-88","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":89,"time":"30:57","seconds":1857,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"So in this new era, think of the creativity question kind of becomes a bit myopic in the sense of, yes, you want if the application, say, is a marketing writing tool, yes, you want that element of creativity, which is actually a lot more controllable and deterministic, and you can actually rely on the LLM itself to be creative in language. But the problem is entirely different for the vast majority of the more end to end applications,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-89","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":90,"time":"31:21","seconds":1881,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"which are sort of this mix of traditional software and LLMs.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-90","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":91,"time":"31:25","seconds":1885,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"What are the specific use cases or problems that you're hearing enterprises you talk to come up with and and say, hey, we need help solving x. So, like, we have this broader reliability challenge. We have, you know, evaluations that we need throughout this process. But are there specific use cases, Vikram, that you're hearing more of this about? Or are there other needs that you're hearing from these enterprise customers?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-91","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":92,"time":"31:54","seconds":1914,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"If you think of the shape of an enterprise, it's typically like a 20 to 30,000","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-92","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":93,"time":"32:00","seconds":1920,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"organized person organization or oftentimes even larger than that. In the world of retail, manufacturing, aerospace, banking, telco, right, Massive number of people, massive number of operations to actually keep that alive and thriving. So you have sales, marketing, all of these are the size of like a 100 different startups in the Bay Area, right? Each of these organizations are. So a large number of their use cases have been internal facing,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-93","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":94,"time":"32:25","seconds":1945,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"which we sitting over here might poo poo on that, that it's internal facing, it's not external facing, who gives a shit. That's not how they're thinking of that, right? A lot these enterprises, they've built out dozens and dozens of these AI applications and agentic systems, because number one, the bar for the need for it to be super high accuracy is a little bit lower because it's internal facing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-94","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":95,"time":"32:51","seconds":1971,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"So they can experiment really rapidly, but at the same time, the flip side of that, the ROI from an OpEx perspective is massive. So the number of these enterprises that have been building out AI based tools and applications for their entire sales fleet on the ground, The number of them are that are building out stuff like telcos are building out these systems such that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-95","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":96,"time":"33:14","seconds":1994,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"outage detection can happen faster so that their analysts can work better. Wealth management teams at large banks are building out ways that they can generate reports faster for their analysts. Customer support is obviously a massive use case across every enterprise globally. Don't even get me started on accounting and then the finance department, and it's massive. So you have dozens and dozens of these. So the question mark in the enterprises becomes,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-96","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":97,"time":"33:37","seconds":2017,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"I have a 100 different use cases. I want to centralize this in one singular place so that the entire platform, the shape of my entire platform is centralized, maybe with one team. But then now can I get a single pane of glass view of exactly what the risk vectors are across the entire enterprise, wherever the models are being used for, let's say, Conor, you're sitting in accounting at a large aerospace company and you start asking questions, which just breaks the system?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-97","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":98,"time":"34:01","seconds":2041,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Some centralized AI platform team should know about that, that, hey, this is a risk vector and this could break the system for others. Or somehow your question is like, Generated this massive report for me and it starts to take up a lot of huge number of tokens in the output, and now there's a huge cost spike from where you're sitting. So now they need to know about that. Or they might want to guardrail the response so that you don't get the response.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-98","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":99,"time":"34:22","seconds":2062,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"That's kind of what we were starting to hear a lot more about, that internal operations, massive, massive use case, and some of these organizations, especially more on the retail side, they started to move more external facing as well, but the bar for accuracy is even higher, and that's where real time guardrails and real time systems become much, much more of","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-99","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":100,"time":"34:44","seconds":2084,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"a need at scale. Right? Like, has every single query from millions and millions of queries has to go through a bunch of different customized guardrails that they've built out, which fits to their use case.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-100","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":101,"time":"34:53","seconds":2093,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"This makes total sense because we've already seen teams not only go through major code transformations and change their customer support features, but also","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-101","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":102,"time":"35:05","seconds":2105,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"limit the intake of tickets on customer support, and all these other options that are happening at the enterprise level. So thank you, Vikram, for highlighting several of these these ways that enterprises are already seeing value and already pursuing this. I think it's really interesting to consider this because so often when we talk about AI, we talk specifically about the exciting things coming out of fast shipping startups","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-102","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":103,"time":"35:27","seconds":2127,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"without considering that for companies that have thousands of employees, tens of thousands of employees, you can aggregate such significant value from something as simple as, helping people find docs internally. You can save hundreds of hours a week, if not more, across the organization from some of these simple fixes that can be enabled by agents or chatbots and a variety of other workflows.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-103","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":104,"time":"35:51","seconds":2151,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And in particular, I think it's interesting, Vikram, to hear about some of the industries that you're talking about here. There's multiple highly regulated industries you've mentioned here, healthcare, finance, and others that are already seeing value. And a lot of naysayers externally, I think, were initially looking at these highly regulated industries as areas where","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-104","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":105,"time":"36:15","seconds":2175,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"transformational impact, wasn't necessarily gonna be a huge driver. And it seems like that's not the case with growing needs for AI reliability engineering, AI observability engineering to correlate with things like security teams, governance, platform teams internally. It very much feels like there's an opportunity for every industry to realize these benefits.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-105","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":106,"time":"36:37","seconds":2197,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I would almost say, and I'm I'm curious if you agree with this, that companies that already have a history of successfully dealing with regulations, dealing with, you know, higher customer trust bars are more prepared to actually take on the what you need to do in order to have highly reliable AI systems and leverage them internally.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-106","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":107,"time":"36:59","seconds":2219,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Yes. There is also a direct correlation with the, like, the pre AI era of for what those industries were doing. For an as an example,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-107","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":108,"time":"37:10","seconds":2230,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"a lot of the healthcare companies have been very slow to adopt these newer models, which are over a billion parameters. A billion parameters is small, but like, a lot of organizations kind of cut the model size for small versus large at that point right now. We're seeing that with financial services as well, right? But model risk management teams used to audit different kinds of","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-108","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":109,"time":"37:36","seconds":2256,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"models, like their different version of BERT models, and they used to say, This is fine. But now they're living in an era where if they give acceptance on a very specific model, the teams are gonna come back the next week and say, There are five new models that you need to look at. So that's almost like MRM needs to move almost on a real time basis, so they're adapting really quickly.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-109","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":110,"time":"37:57","seconds":2277,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"And so what we're seeing with financial services, with healthcare, and some other regulated industries like that, is if there are a 100 of these organizations, it's maybe five of them that are at the forefront right now, because they've been able to adapt, because they already have the compute layer, the data layer figured out. And so now it's they just have to get out of their way by creating the by figuring out the ops layer internally,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-110","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":111,"time":"38:21","seconds":2301,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"and their MRM teams are moving really fast, and we're working directly with them to figure out what the future of their, of the shape of AI adoption in those companies looks like. And they're very, very open to working with us on that side. And those companies, just looking at that, the general, what's it called, the diffusion of innovations graph, if you will, like where The early adopters versus early majority, etcetera.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-111","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":112,"time":"38:45","seconds":2325,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-112","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":113,"time":"38:46","seconds":2326,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Exactly.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-113","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":114,"time":"38:47","seconds":2327,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Yeah. So you have the innovators and the early adopters, and these folks are definitely on the innovator side. And what happens is like one person in the financial services side of things, they figure out how the MRM should work. They figure out how all this other stuff should work, and they see this massive amount of impact, and then that just has this domino effect across the entire enterprise. And we're seeing the same thing happening now with some healthcare businesses","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-114","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":115,"time":"39:10","seconds":2350,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"where all the others are having this massive amount of FOMO around like, Oh crap, they figured this out. They're seeing massive amounts of optimization efficiencies. We're going to be left behind. We used to do data science. We can do AI. We have developers here. And the same thing's happening in retail, in manufacturing, in aerospace. And so it's gonna That's what typically takes a while. And it's exactly the same thing that happened with cloud as well, right? Where everyone was like, there's no way me as an aerospace business, we're not gonna put all of our data on Amazon servers.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-115","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":116,"time":"39:39","seconds":2379,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Some folks are still doing it, so it's a little Yeah, bit","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-116","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":117,"time":"39:43","seconds":2383,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"exactly.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-117","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":118,"time":"39:43","seconds":2383,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"And so it takes a little bit of time, but then they'll look at the next aerospace company, and they're like, Oh, they did it and they're moving faster now, so we got to do this too now. And then there'll be a new CIO and they'll just do it. So it's the same thing that's happening here. It's happening a little bit faster than the cloud, but I do think there's a little bit of the whole, like, which industry is seeing the innovators already come about and how much are those innovators advertising themselves, and then that just leads to this domino effect.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-118","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":119,"time":"40:07","seconds":2407,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I love it. Thanks for these great insights, Vikram. Atin, I am curious if you have anything to add on this front.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-119","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":120,"time":"40:12","seconds":2412,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"I mean, I'll spare the kind","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-120","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":121,"time":"40:15","seconds":2415,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"of Vikram covered the pretty much the entire gamut of the the use cases in the industries and nothing more to add on that particular front. But I guess, I would say that the yeah. I mean, the cloud analogy is pretty pretty spot on except that this is like, the access to this technology is so much easier. Like, to port an application on the cloud, say, even if you rewind the clock to twenty fifteen, it's a lot. Right? You have to figure out fundamental infrastructure and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-121","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":122,"time":"40:45","seconds":2445,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"too many impediments to say. But now that, you know, there's already enough appetite for the cloud, a lot of these the fundamental technology, is powered by the LLMs, they're on the cloud. As long as you have enough compliance for that, I think the rest of it is just on your fingertips. Pretty much anyone can, you know, write two lines of code and get a lot of intelligence baked into their system.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-122","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":123,"time":"41:09","seconds":2469,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"So I would say that this adaption will adaption will happen a 100 x faster than the cloud.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-123","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":124,"time":"41:15","seconds":2475,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It's interesting you bring that up because I do think one of the big differences we're seeing is that inherently consumer facing LLM products have led this wave where, I mean, ChatGPT went extremely viral, has continued to do so regularly, gaining massive market share,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-124","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":125,"time":"41:35","seconds":2495,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"over 5% of the world. Sam's claiming 10 points, are using it with some regularity. So we we have this major, you know, moment where people are simply aware of this technology. They can try it out for themselves. They can see that it may give them better information than a a Google search in some instances if at the most, like, basic use case. And there are simple use cases that individuals can solve. And so the the comfort with the technology","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-125","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":126,"time":"42:00","seconds":2520,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"is often quite high because people are just able to use it day to day if they want to. So it's gonna be really interesting to see how that and the the infrastructure that's already been built out accelerates this trend. Vikram, thank you so much for this conversation. It's been fantastic getting a chance to hear what you guys are hearing from the enterprise.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-126","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":127,"time":"42:18","seconds":2538,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I'm curious if there are any customers or or particular folks you wanna shout out here as we as we wrap up because I I know people always love to hear that they're being impactful in these conversations.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-127","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":128,"time":"42:27","seconds":2547,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"There's there's a whole bunch of customers that I would love to thank and talk about, but it's mostly in the these Fortune 50 telcos and banks and others, as well as","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-128","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":129,"time":"42:38","seconds":2558,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"a lot of others in the fast moving AI space. Like, there's the amazing folks at at at Twilio, at at HP, and many, many more that we'd love to thank. So we have dozens of these folks that we are closely closely working with, and many more who are who we are working very closely with that we can talk more about maybe in the next one or two months. But it's amazing to build with them to see how the our markets move really fast and actually","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-129","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":130,"time":"43:02","seconds":2582,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"make sure that we can add a lot of value because their systems need to be much more reliable than they are right now. Still things still still break, when when things do, you know, Dalai Leyv has to just be there to make sure that they can sleep at night knowing that there's their AI systems are nondeterministic, but reliable at the same time. That's the only way this this entire industry is actually gonna see","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-130","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":131,"time":"43:23","seconds":2603,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"not just the light of day, but actually start to shine.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-131","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":132,"time":"43:24","seconds":2604,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Well said. And we'll certainly be talking to you both a lot more in the coming weeks and months as we continue to shape the future of reliability for AI systems. Atin, Vikram, thank you so much for helping us navigate the complex and fast moving currents of AI in 2025. For all of you builders and leaders who are listening","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-132","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":133,"time":"43:44","seconds":2624,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and looking to stay ahead of the curve, I highly recommend subscribing to the Galileo YouTube channel. It's full of fantastic content, including demos of our reliability platform, our observability and evaluation features, how tos, and so much more, along with discussions like this episode that will help keep you informed and inspired. Plus check out Atin and Vikram on LinkedIn.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-133","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":134,"time":"44:03","seconds":2643,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"They post a lot of great stuff there. Atin, in particular, I wanna shout out for constantly sharing his insights and kind of thoughts on on what's moving forward in AI and some great papers that I I certainly enjoy reading. You can also always find more info at gala.ai/blog for everything we're writing. Gents, thanks again for coming on the show today. We'll have you back again soon for another check-in on all that's happening in world of AI. Thanks, Conor.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-134","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders","episode":25,"guid":"0b69225f-c80d-4c23-a2f0-5bf1e7495c2d","episodeTitle":"The 2025 AI Shift: From Chat to Task Completion & Reliable Action | Galileo Founders","publishedAt":"2025-05-28","segmentIndex":135,"time":"44:28","seconds":2668,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Appreciate And thanks, everyone, for listening. We'll see you next week.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/25-the-2025-ai-shift-from-chat-to-task-completion-and-reliable-action-galileo-founders/#t-135","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"When you get those three things right, clear alignment, cultural onboarding, empowerment, that doesn't mean that it's gonna be perfect, but I've seen a significantly better outcome when those things are all true.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:18","seconds":18,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Well, welcome back to Chain of Thought, everyone. I am your host, Conor Bronsdon. Today, we have Wade Chambers, chief engineering officer at Amplitude joining us. Wade, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. It's our pleasure. In preparation for this episode, I had the chance to chat with you, and honestly, it got me so fired up for our conversation because you said something I really enjoyed among multiple things you'd covered, which was","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":2,"time":"0:42","seconds":42,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"the pace of innovation, how fast AI is moving. And you said that anybody that thinks they've got it figured out is probably wildly off. And honestly, I think that's just such a healthy perspective, especially in the context of what Amplitude does. You're not just providing a tool, you're helping companies navigate this evolving landscape to understand their users, to make better decisions. And Wade, you're in a unique position at Amplitude helping to lead engineering through this AI revolution, something we've talked a lot about on the show with recent guests like Charity Majors.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:15","seconds":75,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So let let's jump right in. How is Amplitude leveraging AI to solve its core mission?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":4,"time":"1:22","seconds":82,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"Well, I mean, first and foremost, Amplitude, for those of you who don't know, is this digital analytics platform. We we help companies understand their customers so they can build better product experiences. And and you have to think about that in all the various aspects of it, right? Like you have to understand what's going on, you have to make decisions, then you have to be able to act on the other side of it. Each one of those is,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":5,"time":"1:45","seconds":105,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"an entire thing we could talk about. But if if you think about AI, AI, considered the heart of each one of those things, whether it's understanding, deciding, or acting on it. We can use AI based insights to reduce guesswork. And I mean, like this brilliant person probably can use 20% of the data about a 100% of their brain. Well, maybe not even a 100% of their brain.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":6,"time":"2:10","seconds":130,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"But imagine if you had something that could use a 100% of the data to give you more accurate insights that accelerate the decision making process and could even make recommendations associated with that. And then could allow you to act on that in a way that I may want to try something or I need to change the wording or, even that I need to put a guide or a survey or some other experience in place.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":7,"time":"2:37","seconds":157,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"We leverage AI in a lot of different ways that helps accelerate, across all of those various areas for thousands of customers. Is there a particular area where you're seeing the most promise so far? I mean, if you just think about, history, right, like there has been so much emphasis over the last ten years or so on gathering up the data and trying to process it. And then comes the Herculean task of I need to make sense of this. Need to understand what it's telling me because it could be conflicting,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":8,"time":"3:09","seconds":189,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"there could be dirty data in there, there could be a lot of different things. And so I think that the ability to accelerate the understanding of what's going on is really one of the key value propositions that early on Amplitude solved, and I think we've we've expanded beyond that. But I still go back to that core. I think anything that helps me understand what's going on then allows me to to move forward at at a faster pace.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":9,"time":"3:35","seconds":215,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"And regardless of whether it's an insight or a chart that helps you understand what's going on, You may even need a lot of different things stitched together, but that ability to accelerate understanding, then the the rest of it becomes much more manageable.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":10,"time":"3:52","seconds":232,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I think this perspective speaks to your experience and the knowledge you've developed over the years, whether that's VP of Engineering at Twitter, at Proofpoint, Yahoo, all these other places that you have helped develop the engineering teams, develop their approach. And now this new AI enabled age has dawned, and you've obviously been involved with Amplitude since before then, with, you know, eight years now as an advisor before,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":11,"time":"4:20","seconds":260,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"becoming the chief engineering officer. How have you seen the industry shift around you, and how has it shifted your perspective on the work being done by engineering teams as AI tools become","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":12,"time":"4:35","seconds":275,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"almost table stakes? I think we're still mid transition. Matter of fact, not even mid. I'd say we're very, very early stage, on a lot of that. I think that there's still a lot of organizations that understand the value of data to accelerate that understanding, deciding and acting, but they haven't figured out how to really tap into that. And now they're feeling a lot more pressure","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":13,"time":"5:00","seconds":300,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"to take and leverage AI in a real way. And so it's it's struggling with both of those things at the same time is pretty hard. I have seen a lot of my peers, you know, really struggle and same with me. I'm not saying that I'm I'm somehow not experiencing the same thing at the same time, but it's like, how do you help your teams both work from a historical point of view where they built up all these skills, competencies, capabilities,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":14,"time":"5:37","seconds":337,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"and know that that's changing in real time. Right? When your source code base can talk back to you and tell you what's going on, or you might want to accelerate your understanding of a problem and potential solutions and how quickly can I get to an answer leveraging AI? That's a lot to sort of take into account and I think that there's a lot of companies going through that same process right now","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":15,"time":"6:06","seconds":366,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"and the amount of data that is going to be available to them is only just going to multiply in the years in front of us and yet the pace is going to be moving faster and faster. How do you take all of those very skilled engineers that you've got in your organization and use them to their highest potential while all of this is going on? It it is a very big challenge in in today's,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":16,"time":"6:32","seconds":392,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"market. It's exciting. It's fun, but it's challenging all at the same time.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":17,"time":"6:39","seconds":399,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"This is also where I see Amplitude as really well positioned because of the the data that you provide to your users and the ability that Amplitude has to help identify friction points in funnels. So this feels like a great opportunity given where AI is going to say, hey, look, we have this already built data funnel, this analytics platform. We're helping you unlock your data already. Let's just take this next step with it. It's exactly right. We feel very fortunate.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":18,"time":"7:11","seconds":431,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"I mean, a lot of it is what are people doing on their site? They are voting with their actions. But the more that you can understand where there's frustration in your platform, like who's rage clicking or who's having a lot of frustration on a single page, where are there multiple mistakes being made over and over and over again? You know, Amplitude has put together a lot of products to complete an entire platform","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":19,"time":"7:38","seconds":458,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"that allows you to engage these users where they're at, from session replays to experimentation to even activating things outside of the platform that I want to go and market to users moving forward. There's a lot of different places that we can help accelerate the understanding and then the action on the other side of that by using data. I mean, we've got years worth of understanding the value of both qualitative and quantitative","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":20,"time":"8:07","seconds":487,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"data in all of this and and how it can help you make better product decisions.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":21,"time":"8:12","seconds":492,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Do you see unlocking that customer data and the years of experience Amplitude has around building that data infrastructure as a competitive advantage compared to other companies that are more so building thin wrappers on top of LLMs. How are you going to position in this new era?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":22,"time":"8:33","seconds":513,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"I mean, I I think you really have to think about differentiation in what sort of sustainable advantage do you have and what proprietary data do you have. I mean, we understand a lot of how users are engaging with the product. So those usage insights, and we've established feedback loops that we can take advantage of and so that you understand the behavioral data inside of your system, not just the stats on one side or the other,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":23,"time":"9:02","seconds":542,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"but like what active cohorts do you have and how are they behaving different and where do they have friction and what can you do about it? We have the ability to take all of that data and unlock it for you. The advantage of doing it for a long period of time is you find the the low hanging fruit, and then you start to look beyond that and you start to discover deeper patterns that you can use to unlock it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":24,"time":"9:28","seconds":568,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"And so as we can leverage that domain expertise, and we have those data sets and we continue to improve and build upon that and we've used that iterative learning on top of that, we've we've built this deeper intelligence, I think is is pretty hard to replicate.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":25,"time":"9:46","seconds":586,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Tell me more about this. How does Amplitude incorporate feedback to refine its own AI and Identical AI offerings? And then how are you doing that for customers?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":26,"time":"9:55","seconds":595,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"We do it in a bunch of different ways. There is no substitute substitute for customer interaction. And so we spend a lot of time making sure that we understand our customer pain, more friction, or where they're trying to go. It's commonplace that you will find Amplitude engineers deeply embedded in an account, making sure that they understand. It's not an abstraction for them. They they actually can talk about what Jill is doing","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":27,"time":"10:25","seconds":625,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"on the customer side and the challenges that they're having. So therefore, they they can kind of work through that. We dog food a lot internally. So we're using our own products where we have a bunch of metrics that we set quarterly goals against annual goals against, and we're tracking it on a weekly basis just to see how we're moving against those goals and objectives.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":28,"time":"10:51","seconds":651,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"We go out and we talk on a weekly basis around the theses that we're seeing in the market and like how we should be responding to them. And then we set up customer panels to go and talk to them about those same things. And so we'll have executive advisory boards. We'll have customer boards, all to make sure that, like, it's just not a inside of Amplitude echo chamber, but it's actually accurately reflecting what we're seeing in the market.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":29,"time":"11:20","seconds":680,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"This speaks to that qualitative and quantitative combination that you spoke to earlier. There's still this challenge around, as you push the boundaries of AI, as you try to leverage your data more, how do you ensure responsible implementations and effective implementations in production and not just in testing?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":30,"time":"11:37","seconds":697,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"How are you addressing that? There's a few different things that come to mind just just as we're talking through that. One is we've tried to establish guidelines for ourselves. And so we've said we need to maintain transparency just around model decisions and data usage and allow our customers to say what we can or cannot do with data. Then we've tried to put guardrails in place to prevent harmful or unintended outcomes and we're constantly measuring to make sure that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":31,"time":"12:08","seconds":728,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"the thesis matched the results on the other side of it. And then we do a lot to make sure that we have to have long lived relationships with our customers to be able to do this. So we need to demonstrate ethical standards for the long term around what we do with users and make sure that they're completely on board with that to do that. So we've tried to make sure that we're setting guidelines,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":32,"time":"12:37","seconds":757,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"we're behaving responsibly associated with that, and just act with full transparency","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":33,"time":"12:44","seconds":764,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"as we move forward. How are you evaluating these outcomes and ensuring that there's not this challenge that comes in with a nondeterminism from AI tooling of hallucinations, mistakes that are made. Of course, we also, I should add, do have mistakes from humans as well, but we already have mechanisms in place to address those. What do you do with AI? Inspection,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":34,"time":"13:07","seconds":787,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"a lot of inspection internally. So we have a thesis on what should come out on the other side and we're constantly internally using the product to make sure that we're seeing what was intended associated with that. We've got an AI agent internally that we can use ask Amplitude. And so you can ask it a lot of different things and we're constantly monitoring to see what it's being asked and the sort of responses that it's creating to make sure that we're not seeing","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":35,"time":"13:36","seconds":816,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"hallucinations. Do you have an evaluation platform in place or how are you approaching this? We do and we have tried to measure against synthetic results as well. And so we'll go through and generate synthetic results and then compare and contrast to that as well as previous norms and what we've seen coming out of that. And so between the two, you've kind of got a historical view and one that's been generated on the other side. And so then you can compare to the two models.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":36,"time":"14:07","seconds":847,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I think this speaks to something we discussed a couple minutes ago, which is this incorporation of qualitative and quantitative, where you both have, in this case, automated evaluations happening through elements judges with synthetic data sets, and then continuous learning from human feedback. Talk to me more about how you're incorporating these approaches into","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":37,"time":"14:27","seconds":867,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"your evaluation and testing process.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":38,"time":"14:30","seconds":870,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"It's a variety of different ways that we do that, but each team is, the way that we've built the organization is to make sure that organizations feel like they have ownership around long term goals. And so then they are able to sort of build inside of that domain expectations of what good looks like or where you might be off base. That can go both from an output perspective, but also from a cost","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":39,"time":"14:59","seconds":899,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"or performance or latency perspective as well. And you wanna make sure that you've got the right frameworks that can measure all of those things and so that each and every rev that you've got going out. I wouldn't say that we're golden across the board on every dimension. I don't know any company who's absolutely perfect in all of it, But we are using more and more frameworks","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":40,"time":"15:21","seconds":921,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"to make sure that we know the delta from one version of the product from the previous.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":41,"time":"15:29","seconds":929,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So if I'm understanding correctly, depending on the organization within Amplitude and the goals of that part of the product, you're actually setting different KPIs around what you're looking for from your evals, from your observability, from your AI tooling, whether that is, you know, speed and low latency, as you brought up earlier, reducing cost, or hitting actual outcomes against a ground truth dataset that you've kind of established from the start. That's exactly right. And you you can imagine infrastructure teams","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":42,"time":"16:01","seconds":961,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"having very different goals and ways of measuring it, like uptime availability, even down to, like, disk utilization and are we getting ready to run out to data teams throughput performance? What's the latency from receiving a record to it being live on the site? You want that as as fast as possible to the cost of processing all of that to platform capabilities","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":43,"time":"16:29","seconds":989,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"to even end user features. Each and every one is gonna have a slightly different way of looking at it with different frameworks in place to to test for it and monitor against it. This is a really interesting example because","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":44,"time":"16:43","seconds":1003,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I think there's still a lot of organizations that are largely building internal AI use cases, And Amplitude's been aggressively saying, no, we're going to be one of the leaders in externalizing these use cases for our customers so that we can actually deliver additional value to them and not just speed up internal processes. And we're gonna take the time to ensure they're accurate,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":45,"time":"17:04","seconds":1024,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"ensure that we evaluated them, ensure that we understand ground truth and are are tracking how these can deliver for our customer base. What's Amplitude's perspective on continuing to grow this and building more with AgenTik AI, as in the Ask Amplitude agent that you mentioned earlier?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":46,"time":"17:21","seconds":1041,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"Yeah. I I love the question and I love where AgenTik is going. And I think we're big fans of its possibilities. I mean, if if you think of it, it turns it from a passive or reactive to a very proactive capability in inside of this. If you can take and break down your product into all of its various pieces, And it's almost like having a PhD or a group of PhDs working on each","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":47,"time":"17:49","seconds":1069,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"isolated part, of your problem. AgenTic, I think applied to this space gives our customers the ability to accelerate their understanding, deciding and acting and actually have an active participant in so doing. So anytime that we can provide our customers that sort of active partner for their product teams or marketing teams, you've got a dynamic system that can not only flag friction but can also suggest,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":48,"time":"18:21","seconds":1101,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"test, refine solutions in real time. So instead of simply waiting for analysts to sort of dig through these dashboards, these intelligent co pilots, for lack of a better term, can proactively surface insights and tailor next steps based on both qualitative data conversations, experiments, things like that you've seen in the system as well as qualitative feedback","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":49,"time":"18:49","seconds":1129,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"inside of a customer reactions, product usage patterns, etcetera. And we feel like if you've got those agents doing those sort of things on a customer's behalf and you've got the humans still remaining in control because of guardrails, we preserve the judgment and strategic thinking that only people can bring to this while letting AI handle a lot of the heavy lifting of pattern detection and rapid iteration.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":50,"time":"19:16","seconds":1156,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"I think that creates an awful lot of real power in the future that emerges, you know, from this domain expertise that Amplitude has built up over time. Our years of analytical experience should fuel agentic models that understand where to look for friction and why it matters and I think that result is a platform that grows smarter with each and every interaction and evolves from a reactive data tool to into a trusted ally for shipping better products, experiences","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":51,"time":"19:47","seconds":1187,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"faster.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":52,"time":"19:49","seconds":1189,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I love the excitement I'm hearing from you about this idea of an agentic future where humans are managing teams of agents to extend their capabilities and let them be more strategic. What's convinced you that this is where we're going as, I guess, a tech industry, but just broadly within the way we work? I mean, so one, listening,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":53,"time":"20:13","seconds":1213,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"hearing, seeing. Would say that largely, But I would say I was on the cynical side of things for a while, and yet I can look out there and experience entire companies that have remade themselves. And so it's, and then as you dig into those companies, mean, one of the benefits of being around a while is you've got a pretty wide network that you can talk to, hey, what are you doing and how are you seeing it?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":54,"time":"20:43","seconds":1243,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"And it's not a toy anymore, right? Like people are actually able to do all the things that we're talking about. So for me, it's not a leap of faith. It's more of a recognition of a truth. And so when you can see it applied in action and as you dig into it, can see lots of people being successful with it. Then the real question is is like, how can I better understand it and harness its abilities in much the same way?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":55,"time":"21:10","seconds":1270,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"And so I think that over the last year, especially, right? Like the speed and the clarity and transparency of decision making, doing research and able to build the genetic solutions on top of it has broken through from a novel idea to, no, it's ready to do some things in production.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":56,"time":"21:35","seconds":1295,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I know part of Amplitude's strategy to succeed in this new era has been to acquire AI talent, both through hiring and through some acquisitions. How has Amplitude's experience been with acquiring AI talent, particularly given the Command AI acquisition, and how has it influenced Amplitude's AI initiatives internally?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":57,"time":"21:59","seconds":1319,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"Anytime you can infuse different thinking, into a company, right, I think you get to benefit that. And if you can get enough of the AI genetics together in a group, like I think it multiplies. The Command AI team is, you know, just amazing. Like their leadership down to every single individual inside of the group, great talent inside of there, highly motivated.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":58,"time":"22:28","seconds":1348,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"Now when you can take that and overlay it with amplitudes mission and where we're going, when there's high alignment and there's high ownership inside of that, you find that, like, the the glue forms and, like, they're able to come in and do great things. Then it's really, you know, can we help set them up for success? Can we give early wins? Can we give them true ownership","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":59,"time":"22:54","seconds":1374,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"in the company moving forward? And so they feel like part of it and they feel like they're not subordinate, but they've actually were better together. And we're winning because we have a lot of benefits to provide to the team and they have a lot of benefits to provide to the greater organization. And we've seen that be very true even in a short period of time. The Command AI has already","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":60,"time":"23:19","seconds":1399,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"both embraced and extended the culture internally. They've had a real influence on the roadmap. And those leaders are, you know, future leaders in the organization and already showing up that way.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":61,"time":"23:32","seconds":1412,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I feel like the topic of avoiding the, I'll call it, organ rejection, when you're making these acquisitions, to follow your metaphor here of, accelerating the company's AI genetics, when you are making this adaption, often you'll see people that thrash out after time. They're saying, you know, this company, I I joined this much larger company. It's not what I expected or it's not the the work style I want anymore.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":62,"time":"23:56","seconds":1436,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"That can be a challenge that it's hard to avoid. You've obviously had to do this at multiple points throughout your career. What strategies are you applying today to ensure alignment and make sure that these incredible talents that you've brought into the company, these amazing engineers, are able to do their best work and are excited about Amplitude.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":63,"time":"24:17","seconds":1457,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"Yeah. I mean, it it I feel like it's a truism that, you know, belief systems strive behaviors and behaviors help develop competencies, whether it's cognitive, personal or social capabilities in there. So I I always pay attention to a lot to the belief systems. And so step one for me is their clear alignment. Are there shared objectives and success metrics that everybody believes in? Whether you're on the acquiring side or on the being acquired side,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":64,"time":"24:53","seconds":1493,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"first and foremost, do you believe and align with those shared objectives and goals? Secondly, then you have to like almost do a cultural onboarding. You have to clear lines of communication, clear ownership, clear wins in the early stages, ensure new teams under understand existing processes, move as fast as possible to a system where everybody can execute as fast as possible on shared code bases, doing those sorts of things.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":65,"time":"25:28","seconds":1528,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"And then really it's around empowerment. It's like can I grant them autonomy to execute on the vision that they were brought into advance and also give them the resources to be able to do that? When you get those three things right, clear alignment, cultural onboarding, empowerment, that that doesn't mean that it's gonna be perfect, but I've seen a significantly","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":66,"time":"25:49","seconds":1549,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"better outcome when those things are all true, over my career.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":67,"time":"25:54","seconds":1554,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Often, it seems like the most challenging part of this three step recipe you've provided is that empowerment piece of making sure leaders and individuals who come into an organization actually have responsibility and ownership, and are truly empowered to go out there and make the results happen. How are you fostering an environment where not just folks who are coming in from acquired companies and but any new talent","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":68,"time":"26:25","seconds":1585,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"are able to thrive and contribute to Amplitude?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":69,"time":"26:29","seconds":1589,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"I think that you're gonna find similar themes. It's like you're constantly looking to set people up for success. Give them a chance to win, but then give them the ownership. Like, there's a difference between ownership, accountability, and responsibility, and I think you just need to be clear. I it's a cheeky way of saying it, but I oftentimes talk internally about like a a point system. You get one point for flagging a problem.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":70,"time":"26:56","seconds":1616,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"It's important. Right? Like, if you don't know about it, you can't do anything about it. And so the absence of that information means it it will go unnoticed. But if you get one point for flagging a problem, you get 10 points for getting to the root cause of a problem. You get to a 100 points if you can accurately, from first principles, define a solution that maps best.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":71,"time":"27:20","seconds":1640,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"And then you get a thousand points for actually delivering the impact associated with that solution. The reason for saying that out loud is that the further you get into that stack, right, like you just wanna continue to bet over and over. So first is just giving people access to get as high up in that chart and then coach and train, provide context, help make sure that they're talking to the right people","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":72,"time":"27:47","seconds":1667,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"and also help make sure that other people know that you're holding somebody accountable or you've given them ownership of a specific area. And I think that when you can also act in accordance with that, it no longer feels performative. It doesn't feel like, oh, this was a thing. It feels like, no, we are actually trying to onboard people, give them opportunities","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":73,"time":"28:10","seconds":1690,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"to excel and then remove roadblocks from them. And when that works out, new people that have just joined see that happening and like well if it can happen for them, can also happen for me. And once they've done it a time or two, they're gonna tell their friends, hey, like this is a place that actually believes in empowerment and ownership, come do something cool.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-73","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":74,"time":"28:34","seconds":1714,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"Slowly but surely, that's the culture that, you build in internally, and that's kind of culture at Amplitude.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-74","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":75,"time":"28:41","seconds":1721,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I'm a big believer in the idea that this social system has to be integrated tightly into the technical systems, the sociotechnical system theory in order to be truly successful. And I think you've done a great job throughout our conversation here talking about both the data and metrics side of like, okay, we're setting goals, we're finding places of impact, we're creating this feedback loop, and then now bringing in, here's how we're building a culture where people feel unable to actually go out and solve problems and encouraged to do so. How do you meld those together","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-75","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":76,"time":"29:17","seconds":1757,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"so that everything actually works in concert, and so that leaders and individuals feel enabled to actually go out and solve problems?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-76","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":77,"time":"29:26","seconds":1766,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"Yeah. It's not one thing, probably a system of things. But first and foremost, it it always starts with the customer. You you have to be clear on where the pain or the friction or the the gain is, And it can't be about ego, right? It has to be that the customer is greater than the team and is greater than the individual and all of your behaviors, reward systems,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-77","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":78,"time":"29:53","seconds":1793,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"everything needs to kind of start along those same lines. As you get into it, then you can start decomposing that into where's there the biggest opportunities internally. And I like the concept of NCTs, narratives, commitments, and tasks. But on the narrative part, three key sentences are very important for me. Number one, today, comma, visceral painting of problem.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-78","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":79,"time":"30:18","seconds":1818,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"When we deliver this, comma, visceral painting of solution that highly contrast from problem so that anyone can look at it and go like, ah, I get why we're doing this, and they get what the it comes on the other side. And then the third sentence is, to get there, comma, you must crawl then walk then run. And if you can paint that, that's not so baked that it's beyond the ability to debate and discuss. And so then you actively engage in that debate,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-79","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":80,"time":"30:48","seconds":1848,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"to say, where are we off? Who has the con on this being the the most visceral problem or this being the right solution. There's a a thing that happens as you go through that debate. People still start to feel ownership in this. And when they feel ownership, they'll they'll use discretionary effort to go figure out new ideas, and they'll be thinking about it in the shower the next day and best ideas should win. And so as they come back and you start thinking about it, right, you'll see more and more people's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-80","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":81,"time":"31:18","seconds":1878,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"DNA show up in the results. And as you get to that, right, like you have this sense of, you know, I have ownership in this solution. And so the cultural sort of blends the technical and the human aspects of this in a way that everybody's able to show up as their best self contribute. But it's assumed that like we're going to debate and inspect ideas, no one gets a free pass on this. It's gotta be best idea wins.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-81","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":82,"time":"31:48","seconds":1908,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"And so we've done a lot to try and build systems that encourage that and have people show up and celebrate when when people, do do that. The data, qualitative, quantitative can help you figure out where there's an error in judgment or the debate is not set up well, as well as on the other side. Let's go move fast. Let's ship something quickly to figure out whether it's working or not. And the data should should also help show you that you were right,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-82","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":83,"time":"32:18","seconds":1938,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"as well. And so it really is building like like that sonar inside of all of this that that allows you to call your shot, but also, debate it and and test it in increasingly shorter periods of time.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-83","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":84,"time":"32:34","seconds":1954,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So this is an interesting part of the conversation because I think there is this idea that the best idea should always win as you bring up. But very often, a good enough idea with great execution wins. I Strongly about to enter a new era with these agentic systems that you're mentioning, where execution is gonna become less of a differentiator for this. And actually having the great idea, and then being able to have strong enough execution because you are enabled by these agentic systems,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-84","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":85,"time":"33:09","seconds":1989,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and you're familiar enough with them to basically execute the technical side of a sociotechnical system, will hopefully lead to better ideas rising to the top. I don't think we're quite there yet. There's still this big gap between maybe even a larger gap right now while people some people are leveraging agents and getting doubling down execution advantages, whereas others aren't quite yet. But hopefully, we're gonna get to a point where this is a broader","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-85","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":86,"time":"33:35","seconds":2015,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"suite that people are able to apply that they're trained to use. How do we actually kind of move from crawling and some people running because they figured it out to everyone running and beginning to leverage this suite of technical tools? And how do we retrain or or or teach the the next generation of team members to take this on? I wish there was an easy answer to that question. I was hoping you'd have it, Wade. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-86","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":87,"time":"34:02","seconds":2042,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"No. I I I found that it's again, it's a kind of a system of things, but, like, I one, I strongly agree with you. Right? It's like how quickly can you test a thesis and iterate on it is going to determine the quality of the solution that comes out out the other side. From a belief systems perspective, right, like if you can change the way that you work, you have a much better chance of just, like,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-87","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":88,"time":"34:27","seconds":2067,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"going through it much, much more quickly. And so I think that you need to build that at the top. Right? Like all leaders of the organization, you need to build ownership behind the idea, buy into it, they need to practice it, they need to actively engage in it. So as a leader at the top of the organization, like you have the responsibility of creating a structure like that that exists","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-88","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":89,"time":"34:54","seconds":2094,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"and that you can test against and you can see who is truly aligned versus kind of going through the motions. You want to coach those people and you want to help them move through that as quickly as possible or you know, change them out if you have to, but I I I prefer to grow people, if at all possible. So if you do that, what you'll find is that kind of layers through the organization more and more, as you build a belief system,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-89","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":90,"time":"35:21","seconds":2121,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"you will then want to coach others on the same and get them to buy into the same and especially if it's working and there's benefit and doing things along those lines. I also think that you can attack it from the bottom up. Right? Like if you're engineer, technically minded, like you want the best tools. You want to be on the leading edge of things. And so unlocking them","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-90","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":91,"time":"35:45","seconds":2145,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"is genuinely just like giving them access to, giving them a little bit of training and then a chance to practice on it. I love the model of you know, you go from unconscious incompetence to conscious incompetence to then I get to declarative knowledge and then it has to become practice. Well, that's really just an opportunity to practice, hopefully with a believable, credible coach that can whisper in your ear and, like, help you understand how it actually works.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-91","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":92,"time":"36:14","seconds":2174,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"Twenty hours of practice, you get good at something. Maybe it takes ten thousand hours to be an expert or a master at something, but like just being conscious about working people through that cycle in the shortest period of time generally works. If you've got it coming a belief system from top down and then you've got skills that are being built up, that state of flow, right, is the how big is the challenge versus the preparation if you're constantly preparing","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-92","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":93,"time":"36:40","seconds":2200,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"people and the leadership is believing more and more, there will be more and more challenge associated with that. Then you see the dry kindling catch fire and okay, that's probably a bad metaphor given, you know, what we've experienced in California in the last few years. But right, it does catch. And I think that as with most anything, anytime you can remove friction or increase the speed,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-93","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":94,"time":"37:07","seconds":2227,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"generally there's an embracing of the idea and the concept as long as it's ethical, to do so. So try and build systems that do that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-94","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":95,"time":"37:18","seconds":2238,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"What other advice would you give to leaders who are listening right now as they think about how to grow their org's capabilities and grow other leaders within the organization, and then conversely, folks who are not looking to be people leaders, but are looking to have this upward influence, what would you advise them?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-95","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":96,"time":"37:42","seconds":2262,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"Let's start with the leaders first. The unpopular answer is I think you have to look in the mirror first. You have to put your own oxygen mask on first. And so, to that degree, right, like, you know, everybody's talking about vibe coding. Have you done it? Have you tried? Interesting. Which LLM did you like the best and and why? As you start to work through some of these things and feel friction associated with it and have to work through, you'll have empathy for other leaders and, like, what they might experience and and how to help,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-96","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":97,"time":"38:17","seconds":2297,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"coach them through their growth cycles as well. And then I would say, you know, as you start to think about each leader on on your team, where are they truly at on this? Can you have an open conversation with them that feels safe? Are they worried about their job? Are they worried about where this is all going? Or they're they they don't know that much about it yet and so they haven't learned","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-97","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":98,"time":"38:40","seconds":2320,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"how to harness it. Right? Like all of these things are overcomeable, but you have to be able to to have those conversations with them. Everything's learnable. Everything's teachable. Right? It's just being clear on what the gap is between current state and desired state and then like building up that that criteria. And then pushing as many people through it as at the same time helps because you have a pit crew. You have others that are experiencing the same thing that you're experiencing. So I think the shorter window that you can go through with lots of people, right, like","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-98","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":99,"time":"39:17","seconds":2357,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"everybody will have shared experience as they go through that, and that will be a culture defining moment in an organization. I would just put your own oxygen mask first and then be very deliberate about the way you're you're engaging your your leadership team.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-99","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":100,"time":"39:35","seconds":2375,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. I think there has to be intentionality around actually creating space and influence and resources within the org for this up leveling to occur, because some folks are able to find the time to do it naturally or do it naturally through their work, but many more are buried in tasks and are having trouble, you know, getting their head above water, or getting their mask on, as you put it, in order to say, okay, like, how do I plan for this future? How do I build this next layer?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-100","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":101,"time":"40:05","seconds":2405,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I also think this is true of a lot of individual contributors who are building incredible things and are looking to take the next step of influence, but maybe may not be wanting to step up as people leaders. What's your advice to them as they seek to influence the sociotechnical circuitry of their organizations to be more enabled by AI tooling, or to have space to take a course, or whatever else it may be people are looking to do? I think there's overlaps in the answer here and the previous. It's like,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-101","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":102,"time":"40:41","seconds":2441,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"I think you look at the mirror first if you are an engineer and you truly There are a lot of people who get to a certain escape velocity, so to speak, and right? Like they learn, they become very competent, they become very good at something and then want to leverage that competence for as long as they possibly can. Which puts you at a disadvantage in that like you are trying to maintain","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-102","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":103,"time":"41:12","seconds":2472,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"that thing that you think is your worth as opposed to, no. I can problem solve. I can learn things. I can apply new technologies based on new challenges and things along those lines. You think people get stuck and don't evolve as much as they need to? I think there is a large portion of that. I mean, look at me, I'm late 50s, right? And so like this new technology","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-103","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":104,"time":"41:41","seconds":2501,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"that's in front of us, that could be very scary or it could be the most exciting thing. And I think you have to choose, which one of those those statements are true. As an individual contributor, I think that you need to understand this new tool. Right? Like you need to test it, you need to play with it, you need to see where its limits are. And what you'll find is that it's not everything.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-104","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":105,"time":"42:07","seconds":2527,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"It's not one solution is not everything to you. You're going to figure out how to use Windsurf. You're going to use different LLMs because different ones are going to be good at different things. The context windows are increasing in size. What does that mean? And how are you going to leverage that? As you, get into it with a beginner's mindset, I think it helps you a lot more. And you should expect that over the next five to ten years,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-105","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":106,"time":"42:37","seconds":2557,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"you are increasingly going to be less and less competent because there's going to be more and more rapid change that you just need to catch up with. And as you come to to grips with that, those that can actually move through that fairly quickly, there's a whole new world of of capabilities and results that can be produced because of that. And so it it it's constantly","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-106","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":107,"time":"43:05","seconds":2585,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"trying to identify that gap between your current state and the desired state and like how quickly can I learn and grow through it? And it is the testing and playing with and trying to use it in production as much as you possibly can, that's gonna teach you all those things.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-107","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":108,"time":"43:23","seconds":2603,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"What closing thoughts do you have about what an AI enabled future looks like?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-108","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":109,"time":"43:28","seconds":2608,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"I am truly excited about what I think this means. I think that up to this point, I am like, I I've I've talked about like, I I've worked with a bunch of intellectual bullies that on the engineering side, you know, use technology as a shield for just doing the things that they wanted to do. You know, they they would talk past people and make it sound intellectually","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-109","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":110,"time":"43:55","seconds":2635,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"too hard or things along those lines. And I think what is happening more and more is product engineering and design are all coming closer and closer together and sort of the things that separated them over time are losing their hold. And so that ability for you to do market research, come up with an idea, be able to get to base level requirements, generate a design,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-110","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":111,"time":"44:26","seconds":2666,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"build a working prototype, you're still gonna have to have problem solving skills inside of that. But I think that's going to be more and more approachable over time by lots of different disciplines that come into it. So I'm really interested to see whether we just get, you know, a ton of new lightweight apps that are out there or whether we're truly going to get new innovation that happens at a very deep level","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-111","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":112,"time":"44:55","seconds":2695,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"where companies are building or individuals are building SaaS solutions that are industry strength and can do really great things. My guess is it's all of the above but the technical barrier is going to be largely reduced as a result. So anybody that's out there, if you've had a great idea, I think your ability to bring that to market is going to get easier and easier.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-112","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":113,"time":"45:21","seconds":2721,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I completely agree. I think that's a really exciting feature of what is coming and how the world is being transformed. We're already seeing this happen for many folks, and it just seems like that impact and that effect is accelerating. Wade, thank you so much for this fantastic conversation and coming on the show. It's been a distinct pleasure having you with us today.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-113","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":114,"time":"45:41","seconds":2741,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"Conor, I've I've really enjoyed it. Thank you so much for inviting me on. Hopefully, we get a chance to do it again sometime. I think we can make that happen. Absolutely.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-114","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":115,"time":"45:50","seconds":2750,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"For the moment, though, where can folks go if they wanna learn more about you and follow your work and or learn more about Amplitude? I would still point people at LinkedIn for for me specifically.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-115","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":116,"time":"46:01","seconds":2761,"speaker":"Wade Chambers","text":"And then I would say that for Amplitude, we're pretty active on all the socials. And so if you want to know about culture or new products, LinkedIn, X,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-116","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":117,"time":"46:12","seconds":2772,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"others, like pick your favorite social and we're probably on it, and we're pretty active about it. Excellent. And we will, as always, be linking that all in the show notes. To keep up with the latest in AI and hear more from industry experts like Wade, be sure to subscribe to the podcast on your favorite platform, whether it's on YouTube if you're watching us, whether you're on Spotify,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-117","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future","episode":24,"guid":"dffa9e09-17a0-460f-a73c-a03711decbfa","episodeTitle":"Amplitude's AI Playbook: How Wade Chambers Builds for the Agentic Future","publishedAt":"2025-05-21","segmentIndex":118,"time":"46:35","seconds":2795,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, wherever you are listening to this, we would love to have you with us for future episodes and check out our back catalog. And if you wanna go deeper into the world of AI and check out how tos, demos, webinars, and much more, don't forget to check out that YouTube channel. IGalio YouTube has so much more on the podcast, and I think you'll enjoy it. That's all for this week. Thanks again, Wayne. Thank you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/24-amplitudes-ai-playbook-how-wade-chambers-builds-for-the-agentic-future/#t-118","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"Poolside is an AGI company. We're going after AGI because we wanna build intelligence on a compute. And we saw that there was an opportunity to become one of the four or five companies in the world that could possibly achieve that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:16","seconds":16,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Welcome back to Chain of Thought, everyone. I am your host, Conor Bronsdon, and I'm delighted to be joined by two titans of the AI industry, the co founders of Jason Warner, CEO, and Eiso Kant, CTO. Poolside is taking a unique approach to building AI for software development, moving beyond general purpose models towards something that is fundamentally different.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":2,"time":"0:39","seconds":39,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"They've raised $626,000,000 to accelerate the journey towards AGI by focusing on code specifically, and we're gonna dig into that approach. Jason, Eiso, thank you so much for joining me. I know it's been ages since you two have been on a podcast together, so it's a unique opportunity for us. It's fantastic having you both here. Thanks for having us. Thank you, Conor. Looking forward to it. Let's dive in. It's really fun having you both here because not only can we dive into some of these deep topics, but I used to listen to you both on your engineering leadership podcast together.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:09","seconds":69,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And so I know that you two have a great dynamic here, so I'm I'm counting on you guys to crush it and, you know, really share your perspective on the AI landscape, what it takes to build critical AI systems. So let's just start at the beginning of Poolside. What was the core problem or opportunity that you both saw in the AI landscape that led you to found Poolside in 2023?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":4,"time":"1:30","seconds":90,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"I'll get to 2023 in minute. I promise I'll answer this question, but you have to remember, ISO and I met in 2017. So we go all the way back to there where ISO had probably the world's first AI for source code company on the planet. It was called Source, and they were doing something unique and novel and new in the world at the time. And I had just taken over the CTO job at GitHub with an ambition to turn GitHub from basically a collaborative code host into an end to end software on the platform.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":5,"time":"2:01","seconds":121,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"Very importantly, this next part infused by intelligence and the intelligence was going to be key. So Isilon and met when I tried to acquire his company, didn't work out. We went to go do the podcast later, but we basically bonded over neural networks and their applicability to software because that's what we care about. That's what we think about. That's what we had kind of obsessed over.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":6,"time":"2:21","seconds":141,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"And it didn't work out from a GitHub perspective in terms of what we wanted to go do. And then obviously GitHub gets acquired and in the office of the CTO with several folks, we ended up incubating GitHub Copilot under a very, very different mandate and very different structure and all sort of stuff. But you go back to that time to speed run over back to 2023,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":7,"time":"2:40","seconds":160,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"which was, you know, everything in the world was playing out the way we thought it might. And we looked at that and said, we want to go in or do we want to sit in the sidelines still and can basically learn to paint and sail because you could see the end game starting to emerge from there. And ISO and I had always said we wanted to build intelligence on compute. That's even Poolside. Poolside is an AGI company. We're going after AGI because we wanna build intelligence on compute.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":8,"time":"3:07","seconds":187,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"And we saw that there was an opportunity to become one of the four or five companies in the world that could possibly achieve that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":9,"time":"3:12","seconds":192,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"And and there was a if you take back the kind of post to the post chat GPT moment, the world at the beginning of 2023 had the point of view that kind of generally was held that to reach human level intelligence and capabilities,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":10,"time":"3:29","seconds":209,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"all we have to do is just scale up next token prediction, scale up model size, provide more data, and we are, quote unquote AGI, and we held a very different point of view at that moment in time. We said that yes, skill matters incredibly, scale of compute matters immensely, but the scaling access that we were most excited about was the scaling access of reinforcement learning.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":11,"time":"3:54","seconds":234,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"And if you go back two years ago, that was not a widely held belief. Actually, a lot of people thought we were kind of crazy for having that belief. So it wasn't just that we saw, Hey, the world is on a trajectory of closing the gap between models and human level intelligence and capabilities. It was also that we realized that we had our own unique point of view on how to get there.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":12,"time":"4:15","seconds":255,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"And, and kind of that over many conversations, Jason and I had over, over quite a few months culminated into, into deciding to create poolside.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":13,"time":"4:25","seconds":265,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"I think one thing to reinforce on this is is always funny to me because in '23, when we went out, we were talking about, starting this company with others. People thought we were nuts. Again, just to scale up the cluster. We already understand how to do this. And we","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":14,"time":"4:42","seconds":282,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"knew there was a different path, but, you know, more efficient, more structured, whatever you want to call it, but it was going be different. And the access, as ISO likes to point out, was very different in this way. In '25, it looks more than prescient. It looks like, holy shit. What did we miss in '23? We saw this. And I think this kind of goes to the the ideas","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":15,"time":"5:04","seconds":304,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"around poolside in general, but just generally speaking, what we're going to need to do to scale up to achieve this. Here we are sitting almost midway through 2025. And I don't think I could be more convicted in our approach, but I couldn't be more convicted in the future because it's super clear. Basically, what happens from here to the next, to the next, to the next. And it does involve scaling up compute, but it you need to understand","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":16,"time":"5:28","seconds":328,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"what these things do to understand how to scale.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":17,"time":"5:30","seconds":330,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So you mentioned this conviction,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":18,"time":"5:33","seconds":333,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"this belief in this is what happens next. And a lot of that conversation is around this term AGI. But often in those conversations, the people who are on different sides of it may not have the same definition of what AGI means to them. Eiso, I'd like to ask you, what does AGI mean when you and Jason are talking about it here?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":19,"time":"5:52","seconds":352,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"So, we try to always be careful with the term because it's moving target. It's got 50 different definitions.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":20,"time":"6:00","seconds":360,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"And so, the, the one that I think is most useful for the moment we're in is the world getting to a point where we have human level intelligence and capabilities for the vast majority of knowledge work that we do behind a laptop. And if you break those things down into the three parts of it, I think we are still very much in a moment in time where AI is not yet embodied.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":21,"time":"6:23","seconds":383,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"We're very early, excitingly, we're early in robotics, we're early in those fields. So the first horizon really is all of the the world of bits that, you know, that we operate and do so much of our work in, and their model. Then if we take it from an intelligence perspective, we have seen early models, you know, with great capabilities and and understanding a lot of knowledge and building this kind of world view and world model","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":22,"time":"6:48","seconds":408,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"as represented by knowledge, but really poor reasoning and thought over long time horizons and complex tasks. Software development is kind of this proxy task for intelligence, Right? It requires you to be able to understand the world, have a lot of knowledge because software development touches everything, but you also need to be able to, you know, go from a high level objective all the way to a full system build that require a lot of reasoning and thought, you know, to get there. And then there's the actual","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":23,"time":"7:15","seconds":435,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"ability to interact in an environment. Right. So the ability to use a computer, the ability to use tools, the ability to really, you know, get to the point that's our ability to be intelligent also is our ability to act. And so I think those three components are the horizon that we're on right now. So I try to usually shy away from the term AGI because it's probably a moving target for the next decade.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":24,"time":"7:40","seconds":460,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"But I do think if we look at economically valuable work in the world that drives the cost of goods and services down, that pushes the frontier science and technology, that's something we're on the knowledge work side, we're on a trajectory now in the world for solving for that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":25,"time":"7:57","seconds":477,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I've heard you both talk about this","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":26,"time":"8:00","seconds":480,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and the rationale for why you're focusing on code, and the fact that there is this massive database for code that is out in the world. There's a lot of good code. There's a lot of bad code out there. But there's so many parameters that can be leveraged to take on this problem. And your approach at Poolside has been different than a lot of your competitors. Jason, you've you've used this compelling analogy","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":27,"time":"8:25","seconds":505,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"saying everybody is building a four door sedan, but we're building a truck. What makes Poolside's approach fundamentally different from the sedans of the AI space?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":28,"time":"8:36","seconds":516,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"Well, I think that obviously it goes into as a reminder for folks, if you're not familiar, again, we are in the pantheon of the open AIs and the anthropics of the world and that we are pretraining models from scratch. So there's a lot of things that we do that other folks might not do if they were fine tuning somebody else's model or just using somebody else's model behind the scenes. And so we make very principled","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":29,"time":"8:59","seconds":539,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"day zero decisions on a lot of things that are different than what others would do. And I think going to the analogy, it just means that we're fundamentally thinking about this different because we think about the use case very differently. So, you know, if you want to allow me a second to abuse the analogy of the four door sedan to a truck, you can't slap the brakes from a sedan on a truck. It just won't work.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":30,"time":"9:24","seconds":564,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"You can't, you can't based upon the same chassis, it won't achieve the results. And so far with general purpose models effectively, what we've been doing is abusing the four door sedan for truck like utility. You know, we've been putting the tow hitch on it. We're putting it on the farm or the work, work site or whatnot. It's because we didn't have a truck. We don't, we didn't know what that looked like. And largely it's indistinguishable","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":31,"time":"9:47","seconds":587,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"from 50,000 feet because they got four wheels and a chassis, you know, so it's hard for some people who might not understand that, but when you use it, you know, difference.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":32,"time":"9:57","seconds":597,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"If I, if I now throw out another analogy, but I think it's, it's, you know, one of the things that we've always taken from day zero at Poolside is that we we've really tried to look as an intelligence in a human inspired manner.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":33,"time":"10:13","seconds":613,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"And I think the truck, you know, versus the sedan analogy applied to humans is that we have very different types of intelligence areas where different people are far more knowledgeable, but also have, you know, really sit on different ends of the spectrum of where their skill sets lie. And one of the things that we've really looked in that is that a lot of that has to do with","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":34,"time":"10:38","seconds":638,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"when in your training, when in your learning, you start really branching off and really focusing and making sure the data and the feedback, which is where reinforcement learning work comes from, starts focusing on software development capabilities. So in a world where we have infinite compute and infinite data, we're all the same model, right? We're all at, we're all at this super intelligence model that everything could apply, but we don't live in a world of infinite data or infinite compute.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":35,"time":"11:05","seconds":665,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"We actually have constrained resources. We can't make a parameter, you know, 10 train parameter model and serve it to users because it, you know, can't, no one can afford to call it. So we're all in a compute budget, compute budget and inference time that people can use. And then at the kind of frontier, we make sure we try and make sure we have similar compute budgets for training. Now, the reason I'm going on this tangent here a little bit is that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":36,"time":"11:30","seconds":690,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"at the very early part of our training, it looks extremely similar to how you would train any general purpose foundation models. And actually our models share a lot of the data as general purpose foundation models. They're great at planning your trip to London or writing a poem or a bedtime story. They're not just about code or software development. You have to understand the world and build up knowledge and intelligence.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":37,"time":"11:51","seconds":711,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"But then about a third into the training, we start biasing them massively towards software development. And then once we get through the parts of the training that are really around learning from the data that's out there, what's represented on the web and in data sets that we've built and increasingly more synthetic, to be honest, like very much so, that our view is that, you know, in the future it will likely almost all be synthetic.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":38,"time":"12:17","seconds":737,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"And then towards the end of the training are really strong efforts in reinforcement learning for code execution feedback, giving models time to think and reason to over complex software tasks across what is now almost a million repositories that we have fully containerized with their full test suite in this huge diversity of domains and languages and getting these models, chance to do tasks and learn from when they're right and wrong. So it's really about like from an infra perspective,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":39,"time":"12:46","seconds":766,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"a lot of things that initially look similar. If we tomorrow chose to change a couple of dials in our pipelines, the models would become much more like general purpose models. But we've decided to really apply our compute and our efforts to really pushing them towards our software development capabilities.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":40,"time":"13:01","seconds":781,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"It's not that similar, like maybe a bad, bad way to think about this. It's not dissimilar to whatever budgets we all have in other domains in our life.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":41,"time":"13:11","seconds":791,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"So we all have time budgets. We all have energy budgets. We all have whatever budgets. So you apply them. So this is a compute budget. We have a, we have an understanding of how we have to apply it, but there's this concept. And again, everyone knows me knows I'm really good at just throwing analogies out there. But kids in life are supposed to be general purpose for a long time. Athletes, kid, athletic kid is supposed to be general purpose. And at some point, if they want to specialize,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":42,"time":"13:38","seconds":818,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"you do it. You should go pro essentially. Keep keep doing this. But the more the the sooner you overly specialize, you can have you'll have collapsed. You basically have over specialization and all that sort of stuff. But then the late if you never specialize, you basically end up with no advantages. And so you have to actually build this out. So, you know, baseball players are you're supposed to be an athlete than a pitcher. Football players are supposed to be football and basketball and soccer players, and then you could specialize.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":43,"time":"14:05","seconds":845,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"Yes. And continue to do this. It's actually similar in this way. We all have budgets. They have time budgets, energy budgets, and all that sort of stuff. And at some point, they need to figure out what they're going to go do.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":44,"time":"14:14","seconds":854,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So let's get really clear for our listeners here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":45,"time":"14:19","seconds":859,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Poolside is purpose building models like Malibu, specifically for software engineering. And you're using this approach of reinforcement learning via code execution feedback to do it. But what advantages does that specialized approach actually offer developers and technical leaders who want to leverage poolside compared to using more generalized AI coding assistance or models?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":46,"time":"14:41","seconds":881,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"I think it's a, it's a really good question.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":47,"time":"14:44","seconds":884,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"Our view is that for, for us to succeed as a company, we only succeed if we are constantly pushing the frontier of, of capabilities. At the end of the day, you don't want to work with the dumb model, the dumb agent. It's just that straightforward. So all of us at the end of the day are in a race to human level capabilities. So there's a lot of overlap in the work that I think we all do, but we really push that towards software development. Now the other thing where that we focused on from day zero is we said,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":48,"time":"15:15","seconds":915,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"we lived in this world, you know, over the last couple of years of models, APIs, applications, all of these things that are kind of being put together. It felt a little bit like the Android world to me, but there hasn't been the Apple equivalent where everything is built from end to end to seamlessly work together. And that's what we've been doing. We've been building the model, we've been building the context engine, the ability for it to adapt and learn from its environment,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":49,"time":"15:41","seconds":941,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"and the application experience is always one thing. One of the things that my favorite thing to see is when you see someone on the product engineering side coming up with an idea, trying it out, and then realizing, Oh, the models aren't very good at this. And then you see someone from the applied research team jumping in and saying, oh, we can actually improve that in the next iteration. And twenty four hours later, you see a new version coming out.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":50,"time":"16:01","seconds":961,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"And so it's, it's that deep integration that we focus on. And on top of that, we've taken a first approach to that to try to deliver that kind of experience in the enterprise. Over time, it will become available to everyone. It's our mission and has always been to try to affect every line of code and every developer in the world, everyone who wants to build software.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":51,"time":"16:20","seconds":980,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"But it's that Apple like end to end building together,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":52,"time":"16:25","seconds":985,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"that I think is quite unique in our culture and our approach that we've taken.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":53,"time":"16:27","seconds":987,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I love the grand ambition of what Poolside is trying to do. And and I so I remember hearing an interview from you where you talked about this race and how you didn't want to regret not running as fast as you could in it, which speaks, I think, to how you and Jason are pushing Poolside forward.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":54,"time":"16:46","seconds":1006,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yet there's this dirty little secret that I've heard Jason talk about, which is that the AI industry, hey, we all pretty much have access to the same data. So how much can you really differentiate on your approach and, and what you're doing at poolside if the actual inputs are largely the same?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":55,"time":"17:06","seconds":1026,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"So,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":56,"time":"17:08","seconds":1028,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"think we live in a, you know, two years ago, and, and, and at least probably when we were talking about this, know, we, you spoke about this world where, yes, we all use the web and variants of it and such, and that's that same dataset. But as we are increasingly moving to scaling up more and more compute into reinforcement learning for our models to learn, We're increasingly living more and more in a world of synthetic data, and where it's about giving the model complex","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":57,"time":"17:35","seconds":1055,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"tasks with lots of diversity, where they can go and explore towards a correct solution. And everything from the thoughts and actions that they take, all of this becomes data. And so you end up in a place where you end up building quite a large mountain of proprietary data that really becomes yours as you're, as you're building models. It's not just us, I think that's for everyone in the field.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":58,"time":"17:58","seconds":1078,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"So it's on one hand, you know, if you think about a model at the end of the day, it's a compression of a data into a neural net. And that forces this generalization that we look at as intelligence. Where now I think at the limit, a lot of us will look very similar over the course of five plus years. I think we'll all get good at the things that each other are better at and have advantages on over time.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":59,"time":"18:23","seconds":1103,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"But so it is not just about the model. I think it's the model is one part of it. I think the product and everything becomes really one thing. I think we're starting to see that a little bit in our space as well. But I don't want to understate what happens when you have a team just focused with an immense amount of compute on becoming the world's best in in one domain,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":60,"time":"18:46","seconds":1126,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"and you build out the scale of engineering for that, it becomes a compounded set of advantages. And now two years in, we see these advantages have really stacked up.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":61,"time":"18:54","seconds":1134,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"What you're saying about synthetic data really resonates with me as well. We've seen the same success","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":62,"time":"19:01","seconds":1141,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"with our evaluation approaches here at Galileo, particularly when working with enterprises to create feedback loops that drive improvement through reinforcement learning. So it's exciting to hear you're seeing the same at at Poolside, and I'll say, would love to to learn. Jason, how many folks are working at Poolside today? How much does the company scale at this point?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":63,"time":"19:21","seconds":1161,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"We have over a 100 people,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":64,"time":"19:24","seconds":1164,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"decent sized go to market team, very large. Most of our folks are obviously in applied research and distributed systems because every if you listen to what we've said also, it's not just a model problem as you understood it to be, but it's a model plus systems problem. And then we're building the middleware and applications as well. So it's all of those things. But, you know, we're two years in. We expect to grow more. We also don't wanna go","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":65,"time":"19:47","seconds":1187,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"massive in terms of the team. We're a small but mighty team. We we believe very, very, very much that a small set of highly opinionated mission driven people are going to outperform other people in this market.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":66,"time":"20:00","seconds":1200,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Absolutely. And as Issa mentioned, this opportunity to compound the advantage by this extreme amount of focus is a really interesting approach that has huge potential. And I've also heard both of you express concerns about the focus as an industry on low consequence systems and flashy demos and the danger of applying these learnings directly to banking or healthcare systems,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":67,"time":"20:26","seconds":1226,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"enterprises that are where b to b businesses actually make money. Jason, why is this distinction so critical and what are the risks engineers and leaders should be aware of when evaluating AI tools? Iso, I'd love for you to chime in as well.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":68,"time":"20:39","seconds":1239,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"I'm probably one of the,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":69,"time":"20:43","seconds":1243,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"maybe weirdest people to comment on this to a degree too, given my background, CTO at GitHub, VP of engineering at Heroku before that. Same thing at Canonical people make a bunch of Linux. So Ubuntu, Heroku, GitHub. If you look at the history of those companies, most of them started as incredibly virally popular is what they were. And they, all of them were trying to jump to enterprise at some point with varying degrees of success, including varying degrees of success.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":70,"time":"21:12","seconds":1272,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"But with a great go to market team, they were able to. And what I'd see happening at the moment is people are making the mistake of a Flappy Birds clone or an asteroid single shot is saying this is the same thing as building the underlying systems that control money movement, MRI machines, drone software. And it couldn't be further from the truth, in terms of all of those things. The mistake,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":71,"time":"21:39","seconds":1299,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"this is a massive mistake that Silicon Valley has always made in my opinion. And I made this in my own history, which was you could get every single X, you could go to the Y or if you could go, you know, this and you'd always jump over. It's hard to do both of those things. Our, my job, our job, and we'd always said poolside is going to affect every single line of code on the planet, every single developer on the planet. And we're going to start fundamentally","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":72,"time":"22:03","seconds":1323,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"with the hardest possible place to achieve that, which is these very large enterprise environments. And you in those environments, if you intimately understand them, you understand that they are not looking to quote unquote vibe code their way to a solution. What they're trying to do is they're trying to achieve an outcome underneath all of these different regimes, whether they be safety or regulatory or compliance or all these internal mechanisms that need to be taken into consideration.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":73,"time":"22:34","seconds":1354,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"And so it's not, has nothing to do with words. It has nothing to do with even like emotions or whatnot. It has to do with this idea of understanding the customer and understanding the user and what happens every day for them. At the, at the root of it, what it is is if someone says, oh, look what you can do with flashy thing in thirty seconds and a one shot over here,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-73","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":74,"time":"22:56","seconds":1376,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"massive defense contractors should just do this. It shows a, a, such a staggering misunderstanding of that customer and user that I want you nowhere near them because my I want to sleep well at night. Hot take.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-74","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":75,"time":"23:11","seconds":1391,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"But I I think, you know, if if you put that in context where models came from and and where we're heading to with AI, Now we we came from from code completion to chat to now early agentic, and we're on a trajectory to to truly autonomous agents, right? That that look like you're adding to your workforce, like you're adding to your team.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-75","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":76,"time":"23:32","seconds":1412,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"And in that environment, we're not far out in the world. It's likely less than three years where you truly have human level capabilities in software development, and you have agents that are collaborating with you in your organization, and in high consequence software environments, the software that, as Jason said, essentially, allows our world to operate on from electricity","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-76","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":77,"time":"23:56","seconds":1436,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"to banking, to healthcare, that's a huge shift from where people are today. And more so than that, agents are not a static model call. They're going to have to learn from your data. They're going to have to get access to all of your systems. They're going to build up a history of thoughts and actions that they've taken that will be centrally available and other agents can access.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-77","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":78,"time":"24:22","seconds":1462,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"That data will be used for versions of models to be fine tuned and to improve. So, we're on this trajectory of AI, in our view, really becoming a coworker and becoming part of your organization. That is where the rubber meets the road in the real world. Now, doesn't mean Jason and don't get equally excited about and have fun vibe coding it out, you know, like it's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-78","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":79,"time":"24:46","seconds":1486,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"a 100% there, but where we probably spend more time obsessing over is on the model side on really, how do we push the intelligence and capabilities? How do we allow these models to continually learn in enterprise environments? And then on, on everything that's built around the model, how can you bring this safely behind the firewall of a customer? How can you bring the data?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-79","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":80,"time":"25:07","seconds":1507,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"You know, can you bring the model to the data instead of sending off the data to the model somewhere else? Because at the end of the day, this is becoming a highly, highly critical infrastructure for our world and for organizations to use.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-80","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":81,"time":"25:19","seconds":1519,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"And I think that's the key thing is that this, this is the end here in the limit. What these things look like is that critical infrastructure and you have to have a certain orientation around it. So, as I said, we use poolside all the time to, to vibe code our way to stuff. It's fine. I do it all, you know, maybe maintain very side projects or things that we're doing. And it's not like it's not good at that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-81","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":82,"time":"25:40","seconds":1540,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"But what I call these these high consequence environments in computer science, there's this term called NP hard. And it's a set of category of problems that if you solve one, solve all. Well, if you solve these environment problems, you solve you can make it work for these folks in these spaces. You can make it work for anyone in those spaces. But if you would just solve","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-82","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":83,"time":"25:58","seconds":1558,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"the the I wanna vibe code my way to something, the no code, low code is shorter replacement sort of thing right here. You've not solved that or the problem. You still have to do it. But if you can do it over there, you can do it anywhere.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-83","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":84,"time":"26:10","seconds":1570,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Jason, I've also heard you talk about this idea of a a devil's trade that the industry is making, where companies are asked to send private data like their source code to AI providers with this promise that it won't be misused.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-84","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":85,"time":"26:24","seconds":1584,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Given that source code is often a company's most valuable asset, how should the developers, the technical leaders listening, evaluate the privacy and security implications of different AI solutions that maybe don't have an enterprise focus yet?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-85","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":86,"time":"26:40","seconds":1600,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"Well, I've always said at the when you're when you're in a selling motion for something like this, which is, in my view, this is probably the most important digital technology of our lifetime. So when you're talking about enterprises adopting this, it's very different than a developer signing up with a credit card call and going to try something and stuff they just don't care about.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-86","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":87,"time":"27:01","seconds":1621,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"And maybe they care, but they don't really care. But if you think about what enterprises are doing in this motion, as you're really understanding it, you have three people that you're selling to. Three peoples whose requirements you have to satisfy. You've the CTO and CIO, effectively a primary buyer, but you also have the general counsel or the GC, and you have the CISO,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-87","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":88,"time":"27:22","seconds":1642,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"the security officer. And there's decisions across the board on what you build and how you expose it. I need to satisfy all three of those people. And it's going to become incredibly more critical in the future as people become aware of what's actually happening as opposed to what they think might be happening. But, you know, the devil's trade I've talked about is I never want to ask a customer","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-88","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":89,"time":"27:46","seconds":1666,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"to have to send me their most valuable asset, essentially their source code And to quote unquote trust me. I want to show them that I've understood their concerns and I'm meeting them where they need to be, and all of that sort of stuff. Because we've all seen what happens in this space. And it's like, yo bro, trust me on this. And we're going to earn the right. Working with enterprises is earning the right every day to continue to to satisfy them. Earning with developers is not dissimilar, but a developer is an individual. There's no homogenous set of developers and enterprises are the same, but they they typically boil down to similar sets of concern.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-89","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":90,"time":"28:24","seconds":1704,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"And so we just need to earn the right to satisfy them and do this. I don't want to ask them to send me a source code. Thankfully, from a technical perspective, this is something that how we're unique. We don't need to get the source code to continue to train better and better models. That goes back to the previous techniques of reinforcement learning, synthetic data. We don't have to ask them to do this. But from a satisfied customer perspective, I don't want to ask them to do this.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-90","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":91,"time":"28:46","seconds":1726,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"I also think there's a, there's a second thing here, which is very few products in the enterprise that are products we love.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-91","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":92,"time":"28:56","seconds":1736,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"A lot of the products we love are the consumer products. And one of the things that I, I'm, you know, I think is inherent all of us developers is we only want to use the product we really love. We know it doesn't matter if we're at home or if we're the enterprise, like wherever we are, we want to use the product that we think is best that we love. And so by kind of obsessing over, you know, all sides of this, the intelligence in the model,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-92","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":93,"time":"29:20","seconds":1760,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"but the user experience is making it work end to end apple like, but then still being able to deliver that in these like highly complicated environments that have, you know, the data locality and security boundaries and, and all of these things that come with it, but what has kind of been our, you know, our, our dream and, and, and what we've been working towards. And it's, it's really nice seeing all of that come together today","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-93","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":94,"time":"29:43","seconds":1783,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"in these places because it's, it's that trade off is one that you don't want to make. I think the best products are the ones that, you know, you're happy to use anywhere. You're to use them at home and you're happy to use them at work. And I do think that if we fast forward, you know, a couple of years, the form factor is going to drastically change for AI. Yeah. Whatever","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-94","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":95,"time":"30:04","seconds":1804,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"the form factor is today, which, you know, is heavily, you know, built around editor extensions and editors and CLI tools. The reality is, as AI gets more and more capable and closes more of the gap between what we're capable of doing behind our laptop and what models are capable, the form factor will evolve. But what will actually stay is, is the full system.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-95","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":96,"time":"30:26","seconds":1826,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"Everything that lives, that becomes the substrate inside an enterprise, the access to all of the data that's there, the model that is learning from, from the interactions that people have with it, the management of the agents, like all of these things are starting to become that layer while the form factor on top will probably be changing every six months for the next couple of years. And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-96","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":97,"time":"30:48","seconds":1848,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"there will be incredibly new form factors thought of by people that are not poolside and that are others, and you want to make sure you can empower them. So it's it's gonna be, it's gonna be a really exciting and and and weird time at the same, the same moment.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-97","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":98,"time":"30:59","seconds":1859,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I think weird is a really good description.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-98","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":99,"time":"31:03","seconds":1863,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It's very exciting to see us overcoming some of the underlying technical challenges, parameter budgets, the model serving, and progressing along this road towards human level intelligence at some of these tasks. And Poolside is taking a kind of two lever approach here, leveraging compute, but also focusing heavily on data via reinforcement learning, as you've mentioned, synthetic data generation.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-99","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":100,"time":"31:32","seconds":1892,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I'd love to understand a bit more about how this two lever approach potentially accelerates progress compared to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-100","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":101,"time":"31:39","seconds":1899,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"just throwing more compute at it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-101","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":102,"time":"31:40","seconds":1900,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"So, so I think there, there are two levers we talk about publicly. So I think that that's, that's one thing unless you want to spill some secrets. I, I, that, that won't be But, but I do think, I do think there's a, and by the way, in the last four or five months, I think the world has, has woken up to reinforcement learning very much so. We've seen it in the first reasoning models that others have brought out. And so","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-102","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":103,"time":"32:05","seconds":1925,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"I think we are very, very strong believers that the more compute that we can drive towards reinforcement learning for both verified rewards, code execution and math and the things that really push those capabilities and having the world's largest environment there for code execution by several orders of magnitude is this huge advantage. We've also been doing a lot of work in non verified rewards. You know, how do we just truly improve the model's capability of thought","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-103","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":104,"time":"32:32","seconds":1952,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"and reasoning as a subset of thought? And so, so our view is, is that that's really, that's a scaling axis. That's where the majority of compute will go. But you mentioned, you know, not just throwing more compute at it. I think we've said this before. If you are not investing at training compute at the same scale of of your peers in the frontier, you will fill. And we're we've always been very open and and aware of this reality and and have spoken about this. There is a direct relationship today","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-104","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":105,"time":"33:06","seconds":1986,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"between intelligence and models across any measure and breadth and the amount of compute that was required to produce them. But the question is where are you applying that compute? Are you just making the model larger? Are you just training it on another epoch of 10,000,000,000,000 tokens? We don't think that's the access while scale and size of model does help quite a bit. Don't get me wrong. And so does more data, but our view is, is that compute is best spent on reinforcement learning. And we've been building that for two years to get us to a place where we'd have the world's largest environment","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-105","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":106,"time":"33:39","seconds":2019,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"and also have the bread and butter foundation model building really well done. And so now we've got something still to prove. I want also be very open. Like I have a lot of respect. Would say right now I look at, you know, the latest cloud model and say, there's areas where they're stronger than us still. Now our job is to make sure that that in twelve months from now and even earlier is is not the discussion.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-106","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":107,"time":"34:02","seconds":2042,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"But we also feel quite a privilege that we get to work on this and that we get to have the resources to scale up.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-107","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":108,"time":"34:10","seconds":2050,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I I love that. And I do think there is a really healthy competition happening right now. As you mentioned, you know, Cloud CloudSonet is really good at some things. Poolside is extremely good at other parts of, software engineering. And I think it's so interesting to look at this in the context of this bet, this conviction that you two had back when chat GPT had its major moment in 2023.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-108","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":109,"time":"34:36","seconds":2076,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"You both said, hey. Look. This is the future. We see where this is going. We see this event horizon you've talked about. And Jason, you brought this up earlier. You have this even deeper conviction today about what the future looks like and what happens next. Tell us about that vision.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-109","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":110,"time":"34:51","seconds":2091,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"This is where","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-110","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":111,"time":"34:53","seconds":2093,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"you can start to be one of those people that talks a little bit too ethereally about the future too. And we always like to root in the moment and practical. But as I alluded to earlier, I do think that this is the most important digital technology. Neural networks are the most important digital technology of our lifetime. The application to solve societal problems, the application to solve hard,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-111","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":112,"time":"35:14","seconds":2114,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"interesting problems for us is within our grasp in a short order period of time. We solve a known set of problems today. We can do a certain set of things, and that's fascinating and it's great. But what the potential here is is profound. And so it's it's similar to how you might think about this in a way, which is I have X before me. I know exactly how to solve it. I'm going to go do that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-112","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":113,"time":"35:41","seconds":2141,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"Well, it's the unknowns, you know, I don't know how to solve that problem. Can I apply some compute budget to it effectively? Do I have a, do I have one of these things that allows me to apply some compute budget to it to go after that problem and have it be solved? It's remarkable that we're even talking about this. And that's weirdly where I think of the convergence is happening in the future. That's what we're all talking about here. The privilege of a lifetime is to work on something like that, something so profound that it matters at the societal level. And that's what ISO was alluding to.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-113","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":114,"time":"36:11","seconds":2171,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"And I think that this is for us, one one of the most interesting, maybe the the most, impactful things is that you can see viscerally what that means. There's some event horizons out there where none of us can see past, but I look at that set when we start to, you know, even approaching the event horizon, you know, obviously we're working in the domain of software right now. It's pretty obvious what happen will over the next couple of years as you build this out.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-114","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":115,"time":"36:38","seconds":2198,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"But you can see the effect in other industries and other other spots too. And I don't know, it's beyond humbling to think that you're one of the five on the planet that's allowed to go after this using these various problems in that way. And, you know, we're just gonna keep doing it one foot after the other on towards the event horizons. Jason talks on it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-115","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":116,"time":"36:56","seconds":2216,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"I really like this notion of known compute budget problems and unknown compute budget problems.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-116","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":117,"time":"37:02","seconds":2222,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"And so I think if we play it out over the next three, five, ten, fifteen years, everything today that is a broadly known compute budget effort, doesn't matter if that's accounting, software development, work that we do in large groups of people, many of us do it, and we do it behind a laptop, and in the future, embodied in robotics in the real world. All of those things will lead to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-117","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":118,"time":"37:28","seconds":2248,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"perfect automation. I think, I think that's now what that does though, and I think this is where it gets exciting, where it's like, there's that you can just spin up compute, you know, to tackle it is that it leaves an entire field open for us of unknown compute budget problems. And the unknown compute budget problems is this infinite frontier of technology progress.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-118","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":119,"time":"37:50","seconds":2270,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"We will never not find more science, more technology that we can build, more exploration that we can do if that's the oceans or the stars. If that's the next, you know, breakthrough in biology, if that's in healthcare material sciences. And so I think what we will see is human level intelligence as a skill up on compute is going to be a resource for all of us that we can get access to and use and scale up.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-119","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":120,"time":"38:15","seconds":2295,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"Once we are through the things that drive the cost of goods and services down to their raw material cost, we will start increasingly more and more spending on the frontier science where we don't know how much intelligence it takes. And we will also start building, taking this first primitive of intelligence as human intelligence and really applying it to very specific areas.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-120","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":121,"time":"38:38","seconds":2318,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"I think Alpha-four is an amazing example of this, where it's a very specific type of task. I think the combination of human level reasoning and thought and capabilities, combined with some very concrete goals that humans could never figure out. The next breakthrough in material sciences or the drug discovery problem. That's where that combination is going to get very interesting. So I think we will look back on this in ten years and say, oh, it's so cute that we solve human level intelligence.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-121","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":122,"time":"39:06","seconds":2346,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"Look at what we now have these super intelligences that we can apply to healthcare and to all of these areas of science. And along the way we will, we will find it very deeply integrated in our lives. It will be normal that there will both be knowledge work done by AI as robots will be doing construction and manufacturing,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-122","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":123,"time":"39:25","seconds":2365,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"and and we will find our meaning amongst all of this.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-123","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":124,"time":"39:27","seconds":2367,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I do think it's interesting to think about this philosophical question, and it's increasingly one that the industry is, I think, beginning to grapple with as we see the first order impacts that are coming and start to project into some of the second order impacts this could have on society. One of those first order impacts","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-124","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":125,"time":"39:47","seconds":2387,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"is clearly on software development, the area where poolside is explicitly focused. And I'd love to understand what is the trajectory, Jason, that you're seeing for what the day to day for software engineers","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-125","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":126,"time":"40:04","seconds":2404,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and technical folks will look like in the next couple of years as this transition occurs?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-126","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":127,"time":"40:08","seconds":2408,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"So as we you know, first order effect, that's effectively how you ask this. What is what are those first sets of dominoes to fall? And another way to ask this question might possibly be, do software developers exist in the future? Because we get that question while I'm sure you I think yes for the record. Well, so so I think this is this is not one of those yes or no questions. There's a whole nuanced conversation around this.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-127","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":128,"time":"40:31","seconds":2431,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"My simple answer to this without going into too much time on a podcast is going to be developers exist. The relationship to the tasks and jobs change. Totally. We've had this throughout history, throughout all of development history, we've had this. It's no different here. The tool is different. It's massively different, but it doesn't mean necessarily developers go away. But what does change though, I think enterprises themselves, the actual amalgamation of all the people, the enterprises, there's, there's more change there than there is for some of the developers.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-128","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":129,"time":"41:04","seconds":2464,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"But what I give recommendation for developers is many software developers' whole identity is wrapped up in the fact that they're software developers. And a lot of folks in that way are, I am a software developer, I'm a Java developer, I'm a Ruby developer, I'm a Python developer, I'm a distributed systems engineer or ML or whatever. And a lot of them are, you know, that I have perfectly memorized or know the ins and outs of the SDKs or the APIs or whatever.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-129","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":130,"time":"41:31","seconds":2491,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"Those types of things go away. Those are not the skills that are necessarily the valuable ones in that that future world. But the ones that still allow you the taste, discernment, and judgment, the ability to understand the unknown possible implications, the ask the questions of, like, hey. Does this cover x or y or z? Does this satisfy the customer? That sort of stuff. That stuff exists.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-130","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":131,"time":"41:54","seconds":2514,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"And I think that this is kind of one of those big changes. And I also think their day to day looks different. This is where, again, a lot of the things that happen in the moment don't matter long term. So let's just take the moment like poolside of the full stack model middleware applications that sit on top of it. A lot of the application surface area that happens is just this call IDEs today.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-131","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":132,"time":"42:17","seconds":2537,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"A lot of that application surface area as developers use AI via them, that surface area in the IDEs is there because model gaps exist today. So as models themselves and the systems that help support them become more capable, the surface area available to the IDEs diminishes. But it's also because the people who are spending the vast majority of their time are not consigned to IDEs the way they were they once were. They move that time to something else. Because if you have 10 developers on a project, you might have 10 human developers, but you also might have a thousand digital developers working on something. It's a very different interaction mode. So this is one when we're talking to enterprises or even developers every day,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-132","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":133,"time":"43:03","seconds":2583,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"which is you have to understand the implications of x to understand what's gonna happen for y. And pulling this all apart is a is kind of an interesting overall conversation.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-133","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":134,"time":"43:14","seconds":2594,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Iso, what about you? How do you see the the role of technical folks like like yourself changing in these next couple years?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-134","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":135,"time":"43:22","seconds":2602,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"I look at","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-135","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":136,"time":"43:24","seconds":2604,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"AI getting more capable and and and reaching human level capabilities as we're adding to the global supply of of software development. People can build software. But I also think that, you know, software eats the world has barely started. There's this huge surface area and you can just walk around anywhere or walk into the DMV or like anywhere. And you realize that there's so much more software to be built,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-136","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":137,"time":"43:52","seconds":2632,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"to actually create a world where we have more automation, we bring down the cost of goods and services for everybody. And so I think the surface area of software can definitely use more software engineers. Now the question becomes is that there's going to be a lot of tasks that are part of a day to day software developer. Where the AI can, can now do it for you in a second that before would have taken you, you know, twenty minutes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-137","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":138,"time":"44:19","seconds":2659,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"And so the, now we are inherently lazy as software engineers, right? Like it's it's in our blood. If I know a system can do it for me in ten seconds and it would take me twenty minutes and that system's offline, I'll go make coffee for thirty minutes. Right? Like, and and so, and we're already seeing that with AI assistance today. Right? If the AI is down and now you have to go do that thing before that, you know, the model can do 10 times faster, you're not touching it anymore.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-138","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":139,"time":"44:47","seconds":2687,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I am guilty of that for sure.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-139","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":140,"time":"44:48","seconds":2688,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"And I think we all inherently are. And so it's entirely, so that gap will entirely close.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-140","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":141,"time":"44:55","seconds":2695,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"And then it becomes about your agency. Your agency to go tackle problems, to go build things, to find new surface areas where software is valuable. As Jason said, the construct, the change at enterprises and company structures is probably larger than it is for you as an individual. And it's true if you really have held your identity on to the fact that you are the world's best person at optimizing,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-141","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":142,"time":"45:19","seconds":2719,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"you know, CUDA code. And now one day you wake up and you realize that that optimization can be end to end, you know, done by AI faster than you. You have to change, you know, you're, you have to let go and change your identity on that. And, and so I think more people will create software. I think the surface area of software will grow still a thousand X. I think the nature of the day to day role will look increasingly more of one where you have agency and are delegating. That's to a single agent or if it's two dozen or a 100, it has to a variable number that you're scaling up and down as, as you're tackling something.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-142","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":143,"time":"45:53","seconds":2753,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"You, you find yourself less time in the editor. And I think it was sucker work on the interview this week. I just saw the snippet. I didn't listen to interview yet, but, you know, you look a little more like a tech lead. And I think that's frankly, a","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-143","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":144,"time":"46:06","seconds":2766,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"nice starting point to talk about it. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-144","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":145,"time":"46:07","seconds":2767,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I I definitely hear what you're both saying here. And I think there are these distinct traits that are important ones for great engineers that maybe haven't been focused on necessarily by the industry broadly. So, you know, agency obviously is one everyone's talking about, like, you know, just going and doing things, leveraging the compute you have access to. Creativity is obviously one. How are you thinking through a problem? How are you problem solving?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-145","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":146,"time":"46:33","seconds":2793,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And then, Jason, you mentioned one that I've been thinking about a lot lately, which is taste. Paki McCormack wrote an article about taste in reference to one of his portfolio companies back in, I think, 2022 before AI had really exploded. And I've been thinking about it a lot lately from the standpoint of really having that defined sense of what does good mean and how to create it is becoming more and more important tied in with the agency that you're talking about, ISO.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-146","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":147,"time":"47:01","seconds":2821,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I think that's one thing that poolside is really optimizing for. You're saying, hey, we're gonna focus on large enterprises. We're gonna nail this. We're gonna have taste in our problem solving. We're going to really make sure we're solving the hardest problem here. But I also know you're planning to make solutions, more generally available with Poolside Cloud. What's the roadmap look like for Poolside Cloud, and how do you see","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-147","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":148,"time":"47:26","seconds":2846,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"your Poolside's truck becoming accessible to a wider range of developers and organizations.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-148","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":149,"time":"47:32","seconds":2852,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"Global ambition for Poolside in the near term is every line of code affected or every developer affected some way somehow. So when Poolside Cloud launches an example, power applications of all variety around the world with our state of the art models and things of that nature, as well as give people access directly to our own full stack. So everything that we do all the way up to the editor.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-149","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":150,"time":"47:52","seconds":2872,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"But if they've someone wanted to use somebody else's editor,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-150","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":151,"time":"47:56","seconds":2876,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"but powered by poolside, great. They can do they can do that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-151","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":152,"time":"47:58","seconds":2878,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"And I think that this kind of goes to, again, what we think is important in the long term is that you understand what's happening in effect, the the the idea of number of lines of code created or manipulated or, number of places where people are actually doing interesting work. Don't mean to talk about it too much. I think it's kind of obvious there. But I also also pointed out that there's a philosophical difference","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-152","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":153,"time":"48:20","seconds":2900,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"to approach, and we do talk about this internally quite a bit, which is we want to be Apple when many other people might be Android. And so we're not, we're, we're taking a very opinionated approach to this. I mean, the first opinion is expressed in that the domain is important, which does not, let's do general, let's go specific in software to start. And we have very specific viewpoints","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-153","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":154,"time":"48:44","seconds":2924,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"on how to build out the full stack on top of it. At the end of the day, it's all about customer preference. It's all about users and developers, and developers are highly opinionated. And again, they're not a monolithic block. The Ruby developers versus the Erlang developers versus the Python, very, very different types of communities. So you have to understand","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-154","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":155,"time":"49:03","seconds":2943,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"how to satisfy some and, all in different ways. And then you have enterprises and everything else in between. So in, in, in some ways it's a massive problem to, to go undertake. But this is also why you build upon twenty years of experience from myself or others in the industry. And you've this, you've dedicated your entire life to developers. You understand exactly what I'm saying, that they are very different than dedicating yourselves to accountants or,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-155","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":156,"time":"49:29","seconds":2969,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"dentists or doctors. And it's understanding the people themselves and what they care about at the end of the day.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-156","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":157,"time":"49:34","seconds":2974,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I I love it. It's a great note to end on. And and Jason, Iso, thank you so much for both sharing your perspectives on Chain of Thought today. It's been an honor to have you both together for your first podcast interview together since you started the company. I think that's a really cool opportunity for us. For everyone listening,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-157","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":158,"time":"49:52","seconds":2992,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"where can they go to find more information about Poolside and follow the work you're doing?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-158","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":159,"time":"49:55","seconds":2995,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"Poolside.ai","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-159","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":160,"time":"49:57","seconds":2997,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"is our home page. It's got information on how to, get in touch with us. If you're interested in installing Poolside and trying us, it's first of all,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-160","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":161,"time":"50:06","seconds":3006,"speaker":"Jason Warner","text":"thank you. The other is going to be that, just get in touch.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-161","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":162,"time":"50:09","seconds":3009,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"We'll figure out how to to to get you in the pike. Thanks so much, guys. We'll link everything, including Poolside's website, in the show notes. I really appreciate you both for the long ranging discussion. I feel like we could have gone for another half hour. I knew I should have booked more time. So to everyone listening at home, we will be sure to have these two back at some point. So be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, and check out the Galileo","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-162","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":163,"time":"50:31","seconds":3031,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"YouTube channel for more content like webinars, events, deep dives, and, of course, every episode of this incredible chain of thought podcast. And you can watch Iso and Jason and I interact. You can maybe see a little, feature of Iso's dog who, who joined us pretty very briefly on the YouTube. And, obviously, check out the rest of our episodes with our lovely guests. Gentlemen, thank you so much again. This was a ton of fun.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-163","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k","episode":23,"guid":"c7840db4-d44e-4dc0-b7db-3580ba613d5c","episodeTitle":"First Code, Then AGI: Software’s Event Horizon with Poolside Founders Jason Warner & Eiso Kant","publishedAt":"2025-05-14","segmentIndex":164,"time":"50:52","seconds":3052,"speaker":"Eiso Kant","text":"Thank you, Conor. Appreciate it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/23-first-code-then-agi-softwares-event-horizon-with-poolside-founders-jason-warner-and-eiso-k/#t-164","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"Unequivocally, it is important for you to take into account like, what are you doing? Are you running the risk? Well, first things first, record everything. Log everything. So then you know or at least even if you made the mistake, you can backtrack and figure out what the heck you did.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:23","seconds":23,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Alrighty. Welcome back to Chain of Thought, everyone. I am your host, Conor Bronsdon. And today, joining me is my favorite data nerd, Denny Lee, the product manager director of developer relations at Databricks. Denny joined Databricks all the way back in 2015 originally, and he's also a longtime contributor to Apache Spark, MLflow, cornerstone open source platforms for the machine learning life cycle. He brings years of experience in the trenches of data and AI as well as a curious spirit that has seen him write about everything from coffee to data labeling.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":2,"time":"0:54","seconds":54,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"Denny, great to see you. Welcome to the show. Conor, really appreciate it. Thanks very much. Super excited. What do we wanna dive into, whether it's on coffee or actual, you know, God forbid, we talk about Gen AI and machine learning. Well, I know if I get you started on Taiwan's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:09","seconds":69,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"coffee scene or, you know, tea importation, we'll never get back to another topic and let let's definitely start with not on that topic. Otherwise, we'll end on that. Yeah. Yeah. We'll end on that. Yeah. We start that this this entire episode was probably gonna go a little sideways. I have to admit that. I don't know. If if folks in the comments wanna get in here and tell us that that's what we should have recorded, can always come back and do another follow-up. But you know what? In in our pre call, Denny, we were chatting and and you laid out this fascinating perspective","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":4,"time":"1:37","seconds":97,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"describing kind of the two extremes of the AI conversation today. So let's start there. On on one hand, there's this critical importance of foundational work, tracing, logging, standards, like your work with MLflow. Then on the other hand, have the push for frontier tech for cutting edge advancements and efficiency, like what Databricks is focusing on with reinforcement learning and making high quality models more accessible.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":5,"time":"2:03","seconds":123,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And you noted to me that both extremes ultimately aim to make AI cheaper, easier, and more usable. I'd love to unpack that a bit and explore those perspectives and how they connect, starting with that essential foundation of the fundamentals. You emphasize that tracing and logging are crucial to how we approach AI, whether you're an individual developer who's building","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":6,"time":"2:27","seconds":147,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"an agent for the first time or a large enterprise. In the rush to build with GenAI, why is establishing this robust logging and tracing from the very beginning so critically important for evaluation and feedback?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":7,"time":"2:39","seconds":159,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"Oh, no. I love your that you bring that up because for a lot of folks, they consider this almost like boring. Right? They're like, okay. You're just logging some files and you're just tracing. And so this goes back to, for that matter, like good old fashioned ML Ops and why we even created ML flow in the first place, which was you and I are guilty of building machine learning models. And in the process of building those machine learning models, we keep the hyper parameters in some like XPEL spreadsheet or CSV.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":8,"time":"3:07","seconds":187,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"And then you have like, you know, the v one of the version of the hyper parameters, the v two, then golden, and then golden v one, golden v two, and then golden go underscore golden underscore v one and then golden and and so forth and so forth. And then you forget which set of hyperparameters were associated to which model. Right? So then you try to remember, oh, wait,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":9,"time":"3:26","seconds":206,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"most of these hyperparameters that I was using in order to run this? Oh, oops. Okay. And then even worse still, what dataset was I actually using? What version of that dataset? So think about it from the perspective that it was already complicated enough just when I'm going doing classic machine learning. Okay? What happens when I'm trying to do with Gen AI when","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":10,"time":"3:51","seconds":231,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"I'm looking at the problem where I don't remember what data I was using in the first place? What were the assumptions that I made when I did such a thing? What were the hyperparameters that I used? What was the lineage of the different sources of data? What was the architecture I used? And so forth and so forth and so forth. And so this entire idea of saying, if you're just playing","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":11,"time":"4:19","seconds":259,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"and you're goofing off and you're just trying to like you've got like a couple experiments. Sure. Sure. Sure. Yeah. I mean, you probably don't need to really do it in all seriousness. That's that's this this could be literally like I've got a notepad somewhere that I wrote down the numbers and like, this is how I ran it. It's comments in a in my Python script, I'm good to go. Right? But the reality is you're not doing it one time. You're doing it you're doing iterations","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":12,"time":"4:42","seconds":282,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"in the hundreds, thousands, millions, especially if you're automating the process. Right. And so then the turnaround statement was like, well, then how do you go ahead and make sense and evaluate which one of these is actually effective? Don't forget, like, if you look at even just benchmarks, and we all know benchmarks have their problems. So we're not pretending","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":13,"time":"5:02","seconds":302,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"like, oh, the be all end all. We know that when folks are building foundation models, they're obviously designing them for the benchmarks that are in play. But then for example, when you look at even like the Mosaic research set of benchmarks, that's actually 35 different benchmarks that we're putting together. Let alone LMSYS, let alone the arenas, right? Let alone all these different ones. Also some good ones out of the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":14,"time":"5:29","seconds":329,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"AI too, right? The reality is, how do you track all that? Well, you need to record all this information and you can so you can actually evaluate it. Well, how can you do that? You actually need to record all this stuff and in a format by which whatever tool you're using, it doesn't matter. Like, we're there's always gonna be folks that are gonna come up with a newer idea, better idea, better product.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":15,"time":"5:55","seconds":355,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"And so we actually need a standard around how we record all these things, what information is actually important. So that way, whatever tooling you use, doesn't matter which tooling, like you should have the right to choose whatever tooling you want, you can go ahead and actually figure out, oh, okay. Well, based on the tooling that I'm most comfortable with, I can evaluate","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":16,"time":"6:15","seconds":375,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"how well these hyperparameters, how well this model, how well basically, evaluate how well this model's working. Right? And then whether you need to fine tune it, ragify it, build an agent, whatever it is you need to do, be able to evaluate also how well that agent ends up working, how well that rag ends up working. And so the in the end, it's about evaluation feedback.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":17,"time":"6:39","seconds":399,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"Right? And so the most crucial or fundamental component of doing that is by being able to log it. So, you know and again, this is a standard machine learning engineering, AI engineering, data engineering problem. Like, for that matter, even if you want to just go back to good old fashioned running a service software engineering. Right? You need to record it so you can actually make sense of it. Right? And so you can claim it's just, oh, it's an AB test. And that's fine. You can do that if you'd like. But the reality is it's an ABCDEF","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":18,"time":"7:14","seconds":434,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"umpteen test. That's actually what it really is. And so, know, again, a bit of a diatribe, and so I'll slow down and stop a little bit. Yeah. It does for us to breathe here. But in the end, we need a standard to make sense of this stuff. And we're hoping, you know, whether it's hotel, whether it's MLflow, whether it's what some other standard. Honest to God, we don't really care which one it is. We're hoping people, like, will definitely check out MLflow to be that standard. But if it's hotel, if it's something else, that's great too. We just want one.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":19,"time":"7:48","seconds":468,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"Or or heck heck, for that matter, a few. Like, we're we're not even that too I need to know the surrealist though. Yeah. But we we just don't want 15. Like Yes. Yes. You know you know the Angel Labs, like, okay. We have 15 standards. Well, let's just create a new one. Now we have 16 standards. Like like, no. We we would like to reduce the number so that way but so there's only a few. And key thing standard.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":20,"time":"8:10","seconds":490,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"There's a standard for us to record so that way, whatever application you build, whatever models you work with, whatever tooling you use, we'll be able to be read this information so you can properly evaluate. That's what it boils down to. Absolutely. This standardization","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":21,"time":"8:29","seconds":509,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"of recording and accessing data, is crucial for the health and progress of the AI ecosystem, and obviously, it's a huge reason you've been so involved with MLflow for years now. And then also, have this challenge around data quality and data lineage as well, things you Of course. Kind of touched on here. How does the quality of the underlying data encompassing everything from ETL and analytics to feature engineering fundamentally dictate the ceiling for success even with powerful models like LLMs? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it goes back to the usual. I mean, the reality is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":22,"time":"9:02","seconds":542,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"this is the classic ML problem all over again, which is you're only as good as your data. Now, there are mechanisms by which we can label or need to label it because we can actually have algorithms come in place to actually pre label for us. But the reality is, even if you have that, right? Even if you tell me that I'm going to generate synthetic data instead of actually use real data, cool.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":23,"time":"9:28","seconds":568,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"Problem is, how do I generate synthetic data? I have to generate it based off of real data in the first place. Because people often think of synthetic data as fake data. I had a really good conversation, for example, Mikhail Katosta, president of Replit. And we were discussing and for that matter, also the same conversation with Jeff Meyer. Gretel's a a great synthetic data company. Right? And but the things like the belief that synthetic data is fake data. I'm like, no. That's the wrong statement. Synthetic data actually allows us to ensure privacy while actually having the key patterns","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":24,"time":"10:03","seconds":603,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"that are required for you to generate data that's actually useful for your model. That's actually the whole premise of it, right? And so it's not fake because if it's fake, then you have a completely different pattern. You have a completely different set of math that goes with it. Right? And so ultimately, the problem still comes down to what is the quality of the data that you have. If you've got high quality data, you've got something to work with. If you don't have call high quality data, you don't have something to work with. Right? But then how do you extend from there?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":25,"time":"10:32","seconds":632,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"Right? It's also not just the data that's generated. It's also the feedback you provided. Right? So when you talk about like, hey. Okay. I'm evaluating something. That's cool. Evaluating gets what? I was like, okay, well, I'm just gonna use another foundational model to assess it. Don't get me wrong. There are automations like that that are actually extremely helpful. And I'm not saying don't do it. Right? The old LLM is a judge concept. Right? I love the fact that I'm saying old and it's like, what? Not even a year old or whatever it is. Something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Whatever it is. Actually, by the time this podcast is out, the the people recording, maybe this will be longer, but you get my drift. It's not that in","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":26,"time":"11:09","seconds":669,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"in the frequency things, it's relatively relatively short. But to us, it's like, it's been around for a while, so that's fine. And so that's what was the context. Right? Well, sure. But again, it's based off of how good your feedback is. Well, how can another model be the judge unless it self actually had good data in the first place to properly give you feedback. Otherwise, you're getting a lot of really interesting feedback that basically is incorrect. And we've seen that happen time and time again. Right? You you can literally ask models like the old school, like you're asking models for math and it's wrong. Now, most of those models have that fixed, so we're good to go. But then you could ask it to do this, ask the same question over and over again, and you'll literally get different answers. And then some people are going like, well, that means it's hallucinating.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":27,"time":"11:54","seconds":714,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"And then my response often more times is, well, that's why you have an L in the first place. It has to hallucinate a little bit to to have that form of creativity. If you have no hallucination whatsoever, you've got a search clause. All right? So you have to have that balance of how much hallucination you want versus how much you don't. Well, then it goes back to, okay, well, how much do want? Well, that means you need to evaluate it. Well, how do you do evaluate? You need to provide feedback. And how do I do that? I need to record everything in a log coming back full circle. Right? The the reality is we can only do better","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":28,"time":"12:26","seconds":746,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"in these systems when we actually can understand the efficacy, the effectiveness of these models. And the reality is for any company, any organization that's out there, it's not like a one size fits all. It's very much in the vein of, okay, maybe company x department a has a very different problem than company x department b. Ironically, x department a is actually much more similar to company y department f than","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":29,"time":"13:00","seconds":780,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"company x department b. Right? There's all these type of scenarios. So this is also the reason why open source is so interesting and important because just like we do in open source, in data engineering, which is obviously my background, where we will often, even lower competing against each other, will often work together because we're recognizing we actually have very similar problems. So there's a bit of coopetition where we're definitely gonna compete, but we're actually definitely gonna cooperate.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":30,"time":"13:26","seconds":806,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"And exact same thing's happening with models. Exact same thing as when you're building on top of these models. Right? We actually have very similar problems. If we go ahead and try to do them solo, guess what? It's not gonna be as effective as when we all work together. But again, after saying everything I said, how do we work together?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":31,"time":"13:44","seconds":824,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Gotta record it. Simple as that. And and that speaks to the importance of data lineage of these open standards. I'll say it also speaks to why we're so excited to be partners with Databricks and to have Databricks both invested in in Galileo and also a native integration. So huge shout out to the Databricks team and and to Denny for coming on the show to talk about that. Let's shift focus a little bit and dive into","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":32,"time":"14:08","seconds":848,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"this idea of how do we make AI cheaper and easier to use, finding value faster without prohibitive costs. What what are some of the key strategies or technological shifts enabling this democratization of AI development?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":33,"time":"14:24","seconds":864,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"Well, I mean, I think the first thing is to recognize that, especially if you were just even asking me the question a year and a half ago. Right? A lot of people were saying, well, let's pre train our way out of the problem. And my response is, cool. You have a few million dollars to go ahead and run your own on your a 100 or h one hundreds of the time. Sure. I'm sure you have all that money handy. Right? And then reality, of course, people are like, oh, didn't realize that expensive. That is correct. First things first. Like, if you think about this as sort of a Gen AI ladder, right? Start with the standard inference,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":34,"time":"14:54","seconds":894,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"which is, okay, let me go ahead and take a good solid model and make sense out of it. All right. Then you start saying, okay, maybe I can rackify it or build agents around it. We're basically a surround the model with other systems, Right? So for example, the the scenario often try to explain is like when you I know rag is no longer the term involved, but because it's it is a rag scenario, I forgot I would still use it or Still extremely useful. Yeah. Find find the marketing terms agents now. Okay. Fine. Whatever. But the context is, okay. Like, for example, I wanna ask my LM,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":35,"time":"15:29","seconds":929,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"for my my company's LM, what is the, salary of my CEO? Okay. Alright. So I asked that question. Right. So for starters, if I want that LM to actually have that information most up to speed, that means I'm constantly retraining the sucker to have the latest information. And the thing is it's a p it's a point piece of information that doesn't need to be hallucinated. You can't hallucinate that number. That","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":36,"time":"15:54","seconds":954,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"compensation value is exact. So instead of actually going ahead and trying to have the LM figure it out, I'm going like maybe, just maybe you can refer to some other database or a vector store or hell at this point, a lake house, somewhere that solidly says what the actual value is. Perfect. So then that's the combination of saying, okay, I'm having my LM actually refer","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":37,"time":"16:21","seconds":981,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"to an external sourcing. That's the old tooling of your LM whatever else. Okay, cool. Perfect. That solves one part of my problem. But then the most other obvious part of the problem is this one. Are you even allowed asking that question? So should I even let the LM receive that question in the first place? Or do I have an authorization that kicks in like, no, you're not even allowed to ask that question. So that question can't even get to the system. So that's why it's a natural evolution or natural step to go ahead and say, okay, just build an agent, build something around it first before you go ahead. So that's going up the Gen AI ladder. Okay, perfect. Well, now you're saying, okay, but no, no. Now forget about the CEO compensation. No, it's about policies, procedures for the company. Okay, cool, cool, Actually, I'll use an even better example.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":38,"time":"17:08","seconds":1028,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"It's the coding specific for your company, okay? So you're using like Databricks for example, just because I'm from there and you're connected to Uni catalogs, you can actually go ahead and extract the metadata directly from there. And so you're generating code, that's a really good look, whether it's a Claude or Codeloma or whatever model you're using to generate the code, don't care. All right, fine, perfect. So you're going up the GNAI ladder to say, okay, I agentified it or ratified it, cool. But now I'm saying, I want to build just for me. So let's fine tune this a little bit. Okay, do I go ahead and now just pre train the soccer? Of course not. No, you start with a thousand shot, just","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":39,"time":"17:48","seconds":1068,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"toss a bunch of questions and bunch of answers right from the get go, see if you can improve it just all its own. And then you slowly go up the ladder to basically say, now do I need to fine tune it? So that's what was the context I'm trying. I was saying, go up the ladder step by step before you think the need to pre train. So that already is giving everybody this understanding that I don't need to have the largest model to do this. In fact, I can probably even take a 5.3 at this point, or 5.4 to do it, because all you're trying to do is you're just trying to improve the model step by step. That means I don't need as many GPUs in order to perform that trick.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":40,"time":"18:28","seconds":1108,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"Just as long I have the tooling and I have the data, then I can actually go ahead and improve the model. And then that becomes your IP. And so that's actually how you reduce the cost because from where we're sitting from and also from Galileo's perspective, right, the reality is we don't want you to go ahead and pre train unless you need to. Don't get me wrong.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":41,"time":"18:50","seconds":1130,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"If you need to pre train, yeah, we're here to help you with that. Like, don't get me wrong, but let's not start there. Let's start at a basis of saying, what is the most cost effective way for you to actually get the most out of these systems? And ultimately, that's the key thing. Right? And so, again, what you brought this up right before we we started you know, had this wave of conversation. Why did we invest in Galileo? That's precisely the point. Right? We see","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":42,"time":"19:19","seconds":1159,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"this type of mechanism being the most important for all of our customers. And so provided that we can make it cheaper for you, then boom, that's the value add. And that's why we're talking to you guys. That's why we invest in the other companies we also invested. Why? It's all with that 100% belief that we can make this cheaper so it's actually valuable to you right away. As opposed to like, let's wait eight months,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":43,"time":"19:46","seconds":1186,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"pre train our way to the problem. Oh, good. So glad it didn't work. Yeah. And I'll say Databricks has had a really smart partnership","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":44,"time":"19:54","seconds":1194,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"strategy here, you know, partnering with Anthropic, for example, around approaches to adaptive optimization using reinforcement learning to get high quality models with less data. What's the intuition here of how to unlock the potential for AI, and how is Databricks leveraging these partnerships and these collaborative opportunities that you mentioned, even when there's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":45,"time":"20:18","seconds":1218,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"maybe some conflict? It's like, hey. Let's let's build this bigger ecosystem.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":46,"time":"20:22","seconds":1222,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think the key intuition basically is number one, you need high quality data, and you need the mechanism by which to ensure that you have that data and ultimately lineage for that data. You know where it came from, you know what it's going into. That's the first intuition. The second intuition unequivocally is that no, you're not building one model.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":47,"time":"20:47","seconds":1247,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"There isn't one Uber model for your company. You're building many smaller models. So the real value isn't to try to take, you know, Lama four, four fifty or whatever the size of that sucker is now. Okay? Right? Or or four forty. Whatever whatever the number is. Or I don't remember. It might have changed the time that comes out. Let's be honest. That's true. That's true. Exactly. That that's fair. That's fair, actually. By the time this podcast comes out, it'll probably a different number anyways. But you get my drift like, it's not about that. Like, this whole reason why deep sea made ever it was so exciting for everybody. And don't get me wrong. I I I think everybody thinking all of a sudden we no longer need GPUs.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":48,"time":"21:25","seconds":1285,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"That's also the wrong assumption DeepSeek by every stretch of the imagination. It's like, no, they talked about v two of reinforcement learning, which we actually a bunch of us were already talking about in the first place. They just showcased it very well v three. Hats off to them. They did an amazing job. So no no knock on them at all. This is really, really, really good what they do. I use DeepSeek myself. So yeah, yeah, yes. By the same token,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":49,"time":"21:48","seconds":1308,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"the whole point is like, yeah, you could take a smaller model. You can agentify it. You can ragify it. You can then go up the ladder to fine tune it before you ever need to do all these other things. And that's really that second intuition, is saying, no, you're not having one model, you're having many models. That's actually how you solve the problem.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":50,"time":"22:10","seconds":1330,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Speaking of GPUs, what about the hardware side? What are the current bottlenecks that you're seeing, and how does solving for them push us forward? Or or what's the perspective?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":51,"time":"22:21","seconds":1341,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"Unequivocally, the reality is we really only have two GPU makers right now. K? We have NVIDIA, which is by far the biggest one. Right? And then we have AMD. And, like, I gotta give AMD a lot of credit. Like, back in December, the semi analysis folks called them out on all the hardware problems and the the software issues that they had. Lisa Su actually literally jumped on with Dylan to talk about like, for an hour and a half to talk about all the different problems. So give AMD credit where there's credit due. Like, they really are trying their best to to catch up and they've made some solid","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":52,"time":"22:54","seconds":1374,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"strides in their software. Like really, they actually have, I got to give them lot of credit. But let's not also pretend that Nvidia is not way farther ahead. Okay, we know that. Everybody's talking about Nvidia in terms of chips that they're slowing, like, can we produce them fast enough? Right. Okay. So without die going to diatribe or TSMC and the fact that they're already producing five nanometer wafers out of that Phoenix. If you wanna start talking TSMC","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":53,"time":"23:18","seconds":1398,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"and digging into that, I am very onboard. So so right there interested in Taiwan, let's go. Yeah. Yeah. Let's let's do it. Like so so the the problem unequivocally is like, okay. You've got all the h one hundreds, a one hundreds, h all the different variations of these of these chips that are being made. Right? And then you've got the weird ones that are going to China that are","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":54,"time":"23:39","seconds":1419,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"which I won't get into. Okay? So but, like, the fact is, like, the Arizona plant already is producing producing five nanometer wafers, which is amazing. I wasn't expecting to spin up five nanometer already. What meanwhile was it Taiwan's already on what? Three look. Sorry. They're they were already doing the three nanometer. Now they're doing 1.5. I I I personally think it's a marketing spiel to call 1.5. For that matter, three was already a marketing scheme, but whatever. But the point is that it's smaller. Okay? The real problem is that when it comes to the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":55,"time":"24:12","seconds":1452,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"North American European markets, we don't have enough power. We just don't have enough power. That's Microsoft invested so much and then stopped and then Oracle took over and they're basically running the bank specifically to get Stargate and the Abilene data centers up and running. You know any great nuclear experts we should have on the show? I would love to talk to someone about it. Oh my god. No. No. Right now, they've god. Was it Microsoft when they had and actually are gonna reactivate","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":56,"time":"24:44","seconds":1484,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"one of the towers from 3 Mile Island? Yes. They are. Specifically, they go ahead and support gonna be three years until it's actually Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Three years. Again, by you know, depending on when you are listening to this. But Exactly. China doesn't have that problem. China basically produces a shit enough ton power, so the way they announced, like, 10 new nuclear plants last week too. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So they don't have they don't they literally produce the in ten years or so, they produce the same amount of power all of America produces. Like, it's insane the amount. So","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":57,"time":"25:11","seconds":1511,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"they're they're they don't actually need to go down to three nanometer or 1.5 nanometer because China's good at power and good at networking. Okay? That's what they're good at. And and the reason I bring up networking, I love fabric. Okay? Literally is because what is NVIDIA super chip? NVIDIA super chip, like, for example, the Grace Blackwell and their upcoming Vera Rubins.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":58,"time":"25:32","seconds":1532,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"It's basically a CPU, Vera, Rubin, their GPU, and then basically a fabric that's like 10x, 20x, whatever magic number it is right now. Faster that allows basically the data stream from the CPU to GPU fast enough. And so this is exactly what the Chinese are good at in terms of building these type of network fabrics. So they can just basically say forget power consumption, we have no problems, we'll just add more chips. That's it. Maybe they're not as fast individually, but in parallel, we have that many more chips all connect by fabric, so boom. And and yes, the it's a power consumption is horror like, efficiency is horrible, but we got enough power, so who the heck cares? Versus in The US, like","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":59,"time":"26:18","seconds":1578,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"and for that matter, North America Europe in general, the Western what's happening, we have to be more and more efficient because we we have power capacity problems. We can't build the data centers fast enough. We've under invested in actual We've under invested massively. So ultimately, what it comes down to is like, when you look at where we're going, everybody talks about the software.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":60,"time":"26:39","seconds":1599,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"I'm not saying that's a wrong thing, but why is OpenAI dumping so much into Stargate in the first place? It's because we're running out of power. We're running out of capacity. And so it's not like I don't oh, I would love to see AMD, like, up the game just so that way we can it's not even about competition, Nosdagon. It's literally about we need more chips. We need more power supply. We need we need more of everything in order to be able to support all this. Right?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":61,"time":"27:11","seconds":1631,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"Yeah. And people are talking about the idea of AI winter, and I think the really limiting factor is gonna be energy for the next couple years until we can start getting reactors online and really have this up leveling effect. Like, that that to me is where I'm more concerned than I am about, like, inference. Like, we're we can just keep on like, inference will get cheaper. We can keep throwing things at that. Energy is harder to solve. It takes more time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Even like from inference, like the reality is, especially when you start going to multimodal models. Right? Even inference, like people are saying like, oh, inference, I only need a single GPU. I'm like, well, yeah, if you're doing text, you could probably shove everything. You can put shove an entire booking memory and you can do the inference off that if all I care. But I'm like, okay. When I start needing to do a bunch of windowing functions off of video,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":62,"time":"27:53","seconds":1673,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"off of sound, all of multimodal AI, a single GPU is not gonna handle that anymore. Maybe now it can, but over time, no, it won't. So I'm going, okay, cool. So that means I need distributed inference all of sudden or something close to that. Okay, great. Right? So how am I supposed to support that? Oh, I need more power. Except I'm using all the GPUs to train the thing in the first place. I cannot use the GPUs for inference. So exactly","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":63,"time":"28:22","seconds":1702,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"to your point, like, there's there is a serious issue around power capacity. Before I even talk about chips, before I even talk about software, it's good old fashioned. Like, I don't have racks. I don't have power. That's it. It's a really interesting. By the way, if you learn nothing from the diatribe, log in and take a look at the semi analysis blog. They are excellent about providing","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":64,"time":"28:51","seconds":1731,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"really good assess on power consumption about like, yeah, if you wanna geek out on power consumption hardware capacity, these oh my goodness. These guys are good at this stuff. Yeah. So unequivocally, if you're into that into that at all, semi analysis is the blog that I definitely would check out. We will definitely link that in the show notes here. They are Please do. Yeah. I want Dylan to like me. So I'm joking. I'll keep to you. Yeah. Dylan, if you wanna come on the show Yeah. Yeah. There you Yeah. You wanna go to show? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":65,"time":"29:19","seconds":1759,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"We'll have Denny back. We can have a great conversation, talk coffee and tea first, and then we can dive into everything else power. So let's zoom out a bit here. We've gotten really into the details, which I love. But I think there are folks listening to the show who are saying, okay. This this Denny guy, he's really smart. He he's given me some insights here, but I I'm not sure how to apply that to my team.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":66,"time":"29:42","seconds":1782,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"How should I be taking actions to evolve our approach to data governance, to our our privacy,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":67,"time":"29:50","seconds":1790,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"to making practical grounded decisions about our about our approach to data and AI instead of just chasing the latest trend, which we're all guilty of sometimes. What what would you tell them? Okay. First of all, thank you for calling me smart, but let's not pretend that I am. Okay? So I just I'm Well read. Well read. I I I'm a well read person. That's all I am. Okay? And if I was the sales guy, then I would just say, hey. Check out Galileo. Okay. Check out Databricks, we're done. No. But by the same token, the also while that's completely true, the the real answer is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":68,"time":"30:18","seconds":1818,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"the reality is stop for a second. Figure out what your actual business problem is first. I've had time and time again people come to me, ask me, like, I wanna build this blah blah blah blah, like some gigantic thing. And I turn around saying, okay. Can you tell me the value prop of what you're doing? And their response is like, what I built, they will come. I'm like, look.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":69,"time":"30:44","seconds":1844,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"Unless you're Open AI, unless you're somebody huge, you're not building it and they will come. You need to actually tell me what the business value of this thing is. And this is anybody from a department to them running a startup. It's the same difference, honest to God, which is like, tell me I'm a geek, as you can sort of tell. But literally, that's my first question, which is like, it's not the, oh, I wanna play with this tool. Don't get me wrong. I do. Okay?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":70,"time":"31:13","seconds":1873,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"But it literally is the first question is, what is your business value? What are you trying to solve? And so don't start big, start small. Start figuring out, okay, I have a specific issue. Then, yes, lineage is gonna come next. And so then you're gonna plug in something like a Uni catalog to do it. It doesn't help that if if you are watching this, I literally wear a Uni catalog shirt too. So just just for fun Yes. Check us out on YouTube for the record. Yeah. Exactly. Just for funsies. Okay? But the the reality is, yeah, you do need to track. You need to know what datasets are being utilized for this. You need to know what data you're processing. You need to know what models you're using. You need to know what the lineage of the models, what version of the models. Right? That's what all this UC stuff is for in the first place. Okay? That's great. And then you say, okay. But now I wanna care about privacy. Okay. What do you mean by privacy? Do you mean security or do you mean privacy?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":71,"time":"32:02","seconds":1922,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"If you mean security, it's authorization. Do mean privacy? Are you done with differential privacy? That's a whole other thing not to get into now. Right? Not saying you can't get into it, but now you're actually basically like, with differential privacy, long story short, you're adding noise to the response of every single answer that you're getting. Cool. How does that translate to text? Okay. That's literally another diatribe that will be another podcast for us. Oh, no. I'm gonna get you into privacy immediately after this, Denny. I'm so sorry. Perfect. Well, I get but see that that but that's almost the context. I was like, each step is its own gigantic","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":72,"time":"32:37","seconds":1957,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"rat holes that you're gonna get into. Yes. And so as opposed to trying to rat hole and cover everything all at once, unequivocally start with your actual business problems. So then you can understand. What is the actual MVP? What's your goal? What you're trying to solve? Now, I don't think what I just get the advice that we we just talked about here is specific to Jenae at all. This is basically any software engineering endeavor, which is stop looking at the whole thing,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":73,"time":"33:05","seconds":1985,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"focus on one small thing, do this a bunch of times, get your other teams to learn, then you can start looking at the whole thing when everybody's actually talking the same language. Right? And so this is the exact same play we have to do with Gen AI. We have to because everybody's so going like, oh, this I'm I'm witnessing this really cool research that I'm gonna go run into. That's great.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-73","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":74,"time":"33:30","seconds":2010,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"Like and we're guilty of it too. I agree sometimes. Yeah. If if you listen to Jonathan Frankel, she's a chief scientist for Databricks. That's smart. From Mosaic. Right? He he he constantly talks about the fact that when we work with these models, like when he looks at the research, he'll tag it, but he'll wait three months. Maybe three months is a little long, but you get my drift. He'll he'll wait. And the whole reason he says he's waits is that he's going like, I don't know what's sticking.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-74","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":75,"time":"33:57","seconds":2037,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"There's too much stuff. Like, as as a company, in our case, we're Databricks, where we have enterprise customers, we can't just simply jump to what the hottest thing is. We actually need to go ahead and know what's valuable to our customers in the first place. So we wanna know what's valuable for our customer in the first place. We have to see what's sticky and then do the research, have our researchers actually analyze,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-75","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":76,"time":"34:22","seconds":2062,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"see, is it actually effective? So now it's sticky. Now people are hearing about it. Great. Is it even effective or not? A good example of this is model context protocol recently. Anthropic announced it at what? End of November. Then Correct. It got really hot","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-76","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":77,"time":"34:36","seconds":2076,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"early March, end of March kind of thing, and suddenly it's exploding. It's everywhere. But it took a few months to really set in for people to get used to it. And and then now you can't escape it on LinkedIn. Right? No. No. No. No. I agree. Now now the biggest problem with MCP and don't get me wrong. I'm a I am a backer of MCP as well. But I was thinking biggest problem is now everybody's like, MCP. I'm like, do you know what you're using it for? Yeah. And use the and so goes back to you. Hey, this is actually makes sense for this use case that I have. Exactly.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-77","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":78,"time":"35:02","seconds":2102,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. But it's a lot of fun to say, hey, I have an agent and it's using MCP because those are the terms people are using right now. Exactly. Exactly. Buzzword buzzword's big goal all over again. Exactly. Yes. Yeah. And I think this is I mean, honestly, Denny, you've given us so many great topics of conversation here. Feel like I could spend an hour with you on each one of those. And sadly, we are time limited today. But No. It's okay. The the great thing about","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-78","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":79,"time":"35:25","seconds":2125,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"what you're sharing here probably is any business user, any builder, they can come in and say, okay, this is my specific use case. These are the key points I need to apply from this conversation, and then dive deeper into their next piece of research. And you mentioned something that I I said I wanted to touch on, which is the privacy element of this. We we've kind of briefly alluded to it, but there's this impulse","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-79","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":80,"time":"35:51","seconds":2151,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"often for, and I'm guilty to be clear, shove everything into an LLM and treat it as omnipotent and have it, you know, do the thing for me. And hell, I do this with, you know, first drafts on a blog sometimes. But this approach often comes with limitations and risks around things like access control, potential IP risks. What's your perspective on how we should be thinking about privacy in this current era?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-80","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":81,"time":"36:15","seconds":2175,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"Okay. So I'll give you a specific set of examples to provide context and we can grow up from there. Okay? So I was fortunate where I actually, back in 2007, I think, I was at Microsoft and actually worked with worked on differential privacy back then with privacy preserving algorithms. And basically long story short, doctor Latanya Sweeney, she developed a paper called K anonymity.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-81","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":82,"time":"36:44","seconds":2204,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"And the whole premise was that she took the public voting records from Massachusetts and the what was what was considered at the time and may still even be considered currently as PII medical records. Okay? And she joined them together. May she has pay had to pay $25 because she had to get the CD of the voters record. Okay? That's that's that's what she had to do. Okay?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-82","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":83,"time":"37:08","seconds":2228,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"She combined the data together and she asked three three questions. That's it. She asked three questions and then discovered then governor William Weld's medical records. That's all it took. Okay? And so what she observed was that and this is back in this is like back in like late nineties, early two thousands. Something like I'm I'm probably I'm I'm pretty sure the number's not quite right. I'm because I'm trying to do it from memory here right now. But something like 83%","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-83","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":84,"time":"37:39","seconds":2259,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"of The US population was uniqueified. In other words, I don't wanna say identified, but uniqueified. You can uniquely determine that that is an individual, was uniqueified by simply birth date, five digit ZIP code, and gender. That's all it took. So think about when you have an LLM and you're throwing the entire Internet in there. All it took, like I said, five digits ZIP code, gender, and birth date, and I'm actually able to unicify that individual.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-84","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":85,"time":"38:15","seconds":2295,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"That is ultimately the reason why when you look at large language models, when you look at people are there's all sorts of people who we have I'm not claiming we're successful at all, by way. I'd be very careful about this. Okay? Like, I hope by the time, you know, people listening to this later time, but it will have been successful. But the reality is because we shove so much data in there, we we actually can't guarantee","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-85","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":86,"time":"38:37","seconds":2317,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"the privacy of an individual. So we actually have to do things like proper data lineage, be able to go ahead and track what hyperparameters we're using, the whole kit and caboodle so that way we can act and this is also part of the reason why synthetic data is actually so important. So that way we can actually try to have some form of control to minimize the likelihood that we're exposing individuals.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-86","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":87,"time":"38:58","seconds":2338,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"Basically, that's what it boils down to. And differential privacy in its most simplistic form in terms of privacy preserving histograms is more like when you in aggregate are asking a query, say, hey, okay, how many people are diabetic in the state of Oregon in this county? Okay? The answer is some number, let's just say twenty three. Okay? Sure. So we add some","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-87","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":88,"time":"39:27","seconds":2367,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"noise to it. So now the number becomes 26. Okay? And so this is what the Epsilon noise, we just add a little tiny bit of noise. And so the idea is that as you ask questions, more noises added to each to each one. And if you add even more questions, in fact, more noise is actually added. By doing this, there's mathematical guarantees to preventing, to basically,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-88","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":89,"time":"39:51","seconds":2391,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"protect the individual underneath that data. That's when you're looking at the query in aggregate. Now I wanna emphasize that point. I said in aggregate because guess what? When we're asking LMs things, we're not getting an aggregate answer. We're often getting very specific answers. So now how do you guarantee that? Which means the only way to protect the individual underneath the data is that we actually do things either one, which is to go ahead and generate data","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-89","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":90,"time":"40:20","seconds":2420,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"that actually already protects the individual underneath that data, or two, develop various techniques and algorithms which actually remove information from the LM in the first place. There's various levels of success with doing that. But typically, I prefer the other one, which is basically the data you generate. In other words, if you know that there are three Seahawk fans","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-90","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":91,"time":"40:44","seconds":2444,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"in these eight people. So you still attribute three Seahawk fans, but not necessarily to the same three people, but still across the eight. Right? But they're the Cartesian on that or permutation on that becomes insane. So that's why there's only so much matrix gouge about you can do before this entire thing. Entire statement I just said falls apart, right? But that's more or less the context. The context basically is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-91","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":92,"time":"41:07","seconds":2467,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"understanding there is a problem. There are some techniques that are actually very helpful. In fact, the Grennel folks and I have been having some very good conversations exactly about differential privacy for for LM. So I definitely would check out the Gretel stuff in terms of what they've been able to go do. But that's more or less the context. I'm saying like, we're still infancy.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-92","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":93,"time":"41:30","seconds":2490,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"But you as a person who are building these applications or building these models, unequivocally, it is important for you to take into account like, what are you doing? Are you running the risk? Well, first or first things first, just to wrap right back to the beginning of our entire conversation. Record everything. Log everything. So then you know, or at least even if you made the mistake, you can backtrack and figure out what the heck you","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-93","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":94,"time":"41:56","seconds":2516,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Fantastic. Thank thank you so much, Denny. This has been a wide ranging conversation, but not only have you managed to wrap it up with a nice little bow, but you've given us a lot of different areas to dive in deeper. We'll have to have you back for another deeper conversation on a couple of these topics, and our listeners should have a lot of follow-up material to dive into. So thank you so much for sharing your experience and perspective. It was a pleasure having you on the show. Where can listeners go to find out more about you and about your work? Where can they follow you?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-94","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":95,"time":"42:21","seconds":2541,"speaker":"Databricks’ Denny Lee","text":"Oh, honestly. First of all, thank you very much for writing me. Really appreciate it. Our pleasure. Honest to God, you could just find me at databricks.com. Like the the YouTube. The one little shout I would do is the Databrew by Databricks podcast. That's where a lot of our JIT AI stuff comes from in the first place. Great show. Definitely listen to it. Yeah. Please please join us there too. So Fantastic. Well, we will make sure to link all of this in the show notes. Denny, great to see you as always. Looking forward to seeing you in a few weeks at Data and AI Summit,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-95","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":96,"time":"42:47","seconds":2567,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"in San Francisco with Databricks. And thank you everyone for tuning in to this episode of Chain of Thought. If you enjoyed Denny, definitely check out his podcast with Databricks. And, of course, you can always check out Galileo's podcast, Chain of Thought, on YouTube or your favorite podcasting app of choice. So make sure you have subscribed. Make sure you've liked, you know, maybe given us a review if you love us on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. We always love those, and it helps other folks find our show as well.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-96","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee","episode":22,"guid":"d57b6a4d-3d92-409f-ad88-f7d9c55c859b","episodeTitle":"AI's Two Extremes – Foundations & The Frontier | Databricks’ Denny Lee","publishedAt":"2025-05-07","segmentIndex":97,"time":"43:11","seconds":2591,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So thank you so much for tuning in. We'll be back next week with more insights in the world of AI. And, Denny, thank you so much again. It's been a pleasure. Thanks a lot. Appreciate it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/22-ais-two-extremes-foundations-and-the-frontier-databricks-denny-lee/#t-97","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"And I started seeing white coding as a kind of analogy would be a fast food thing where, okay, it's fantastic. You can eat something really quickly. You can get hold of your burger or sandwich in, like, matter of minutes, or even seconds. But then it has to be done in moderation. It has to be used carefully.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:24","seconds":24,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Welcome back to Chain of Thought, everyone. I am your host, Conor Bronsdon. And today, are joined by Siva Surendira, CEO at Lyser I AI. Siva, welcome to the show. Thanks, Conor. Happy to be here. I'm excited to have you here in particular because 2025 has rapidly become the year of Identik AI, or at least the year so far. So many of our guests here on Chain of Thought are now either experimenting with agents","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":2,"time":"0:53","seconds":53,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"or already building with them. And you might be ahead of the game there, as Lyzr is an enterprise agent framework that helps businesses build AI agents. It seems like the perfect moment to be leading a company that's an agent builder. So I gotta ask, did you foresee agents becoming the thing in AI here in 2025?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:13","seconds":73,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"I always saw the power that an agent had, like what it could do, for example, a task repeatedly over and over again, which is exactly what lot of us humans do in our daily work life so that the agents could replace. I was able to see that. But I never thought it going to blow up the way it has happened now. We had concepts like RAG and fine tuning, which got popular. They had their own hype cycles.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":4,"time":"1:41","seconds":101,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"But I think the way agent became mainstream, more like database and more like cloud, how they became mainstream, agents have become mainstream. I never thought it'll have this level of adoption, but but cannot complain because we were one of the early movers and we are sitting pretty in this whole agent train so called. Absolutely.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":5,"time":"2:02","seconds":122,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It's great timing, certainly, and very cool to see the success is having. What's the core problem that you see LyseR solving for developers and enterprises who are looking to implement AI agents?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":6,"time":"2:16","seconds":136,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"Now, I've spent the last ten, twelve years of my life working with enterprises, working for enterprises, working for GSIs, also known as global system integrators. Like, if you look at companies like Accenture and IBM Services, they all come out of that bucket. And the developers there are not the ones who would normally spend their time on a framework, on a command line interface, and go through Python packages and modules.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":7,"time":"2:46","seconds":166,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"So given my background, I thought, okay. This is very powerful. The the frameworks the open source frameworks are very powerful. But how do we make it enterprise friendly, rather more importantly, enterprise developer friendly? How do we get the developers in these enterprises and these GSIs build agents and manage agents at scale? So that was the line of thought","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":8,"time":"3:09","seconds":189,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"which led me to build a framework back in July 2023. And whole of 2024, we were just a framework company comparable with Autogens and Crew, AI and Landgraf. But then we realized that, again, we are getting into the same trap because developers are not building necessarily on frameworks. They need a UI. They need a Versa like platform, an AWS like platform, which led us to build the LyseR Agent Studio,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":9,"time":"3:40","seconds":220,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"which went live, in December 2024. So, that's been the journey, the primary line was this. How do we bring the agent framework experience to an enterprise developer via a a beautiful UI for them to build and manage agents.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":10,"time":"3:57","seconds":237,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I think it's really interesting to see this different approach that you're taking to the agent market because, as you noted, a lot of frameworks have gone broad. And you've made this decision to say, Hey, look, we're going to focus on enterprises now. We're going to focus on enabling trustworthy AI as, as some folks would put it, or responsible AI, as I saw one of your modules calling it. I'm curious how that dovetails","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":11,"time":"4:25","seconds":265,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"with this incredible innovation that's happening around vibe coding, where people are able to enable builders around the world to create applications. Even bad devs like myself can build really cool things now. But it's become a lightning rod because, obviously, there are all kinds of positives and negatives to this. Yes. We're creating a lot more code. We're building a lot more applications. We can build agents way faster,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":12,"time":"4:53","seconds":293,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"but they're also often sloppier. There may not be the best CICD processes. And a lot of enterprises in particular who have their highly consequential use cases where if their customers have an outage, there's major money lost or or even lives in the with health care providers and other folks. They have different standards. So how do you set up an agent framework, which I think most people see as something that's like, oh, quick moving. Let's let's go. Let's go. Let's go. To,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":13,"time":"5:26","seconds":326,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"you know, face this enterprise challenge, particularly as these low code or almost no code just simply done by, you know, ChetubbyT or Claude or whoever's doing the coding for you, Cursor, windsurf, or whatever. How do you reframe agents for this new world of both speed, risk, and opportunity?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":14,"time":"5:52","seconds":352,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"Yeah. There's there are two parts to this. Right? Let me handle the white coding thing first, and then I'll go back to, what's the other problem that we started seeing in the market, especially with enterprises. So on the wipe coding part, it's fantastic. Like you mentioned, where like, I don't code I don't know React. I know Python. I know databases. I was a Teradata developer. I know all the back end systems. React never had a time to learn about it. Same. But, yes, thanks to platforms like Bold, Lovable, Cursor, Windsurf, you don't have to know you don't have to know React now. We can just build the whole thing via white coding. But","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":15,"time":"6:32","seconds":392,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"can I go back and edit? Can I go back and make it production grade? Can I go back and make it something that can scale up to, say, a million users? No. And and I started seeing white coding as a kind of analogy would be a fast food thing where, okay, it's fantastic. You can eat something really quickly. You can get hold of your burger or sandwich in, like, matter of minutes, or even seconds.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":16,"time":"6:57","seconds":417,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"But then it has to be done in moderation. It has to be used carefully. Andrei Garpati had a very good take on this. He was the one who termed the term who termed wipe coding in the first place. And then I think he came back and made a pretty, interesting tweet. He said, it's not I mean, even for you to white code and build something, you need to know the architecture of what you're building. You need to have a plan in place. You need to figure out the modules are still in your control. You need to first plan the modules out so that you can use wipe coding in moderation.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":17,"time":"7:34","seconds":454,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"Now that will be a strategy that'll take help you move farther rather than trying to build the whole thing via white coding. I don't know if you came across the one of a Twitter user who actually built and launched an app purely via white coding, and then he started I think he got started getting attacks from all over the place including as he told Yes. The Twitter universe that he had vibe coded it. Some lovely","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":18,"time":"8:00","seconds":480,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"folks out there were like, oh, let's see if you're exposing any endpoints. Let's see how tracked your how your data is set up here. Let's, let's see what's going on. So Good. I mean and enterprises are not going to take this risk at all. No. I Certainly not.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":19,"time":"8:15","seconds":495,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"I was have been speaking with enterprise. We we are working with some of the biggest banks in the world, some of the biggest insurance organizations in the world, some of the biggest airlines in the world. But mostly, the focus for Lyzr is, the financial institutions because they are the most regulated. They are the most worried in terms of data and AI. So, we started going to the deep end of the problem on day one instead of trying to do all the other stuff. And there,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":20,"time":"8:43","seconds":523,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"we did speak to them about using Cursor and Bold and Lovable. They have very few subscriptions, and that too only for the product teams and some marketing teams to build some prototype UIs. They are not allowed to export the code anywhere. They can only take screenshots of whatever they build. They do allow people to go and be creative, but you cannot push that code to production. You're not allowed to take that code to production. So, is how enterprises are reacting to white coding. It's a fantastic, I","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":21,"time":"9:18","seconds":558,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"would say, tool for startups, for SMBs who can get a lot of things done, but enterprises have a very different take on white coding. And, so going back to the second aspect, it's the exact same mindset enterprises have towards open source agent frameworks. The other problem was the productionization of these agents. 95% of all AI work today done by enterprises remain as proof of concepts. They don't move into production.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":22,"time":"9:50","seconds":590,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"And when we kind of started digging into it, aspects around safe AI and responsible AI were the primary concerns. Enterprises are worried. They don't want to get sued by their customer. They don't want to, by mistake, approve a $100,000 refund to their customer where it was just a $10 refund. So these are all the hallucination issue, the toxicity issue, the prompt injections. These are all the issues that bothers them, which prevents them from taking their agents to production.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":23,"time":"10:20","seconds":620,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"And that's the other problem that we started tackling. How did we tackle it? Since we wrote the core framework ourselves, we were able to incorporate the SafeAirresponsibly guardrails natively to the core agent architecture. So, LISR agents are responsible by design. They are not an afterthought. They are not a third party API that you integrate. And that allowed us to go to enterprises and say that, Hey, now you have a viable alternate","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":24,"time":"10:48","seconds":648,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"where the agents are they have built in guardrails. And you don't have to worry whether you are building 10 agents or 10,000,000 agents. You can centrally, enforce the guardrails to the entire organization. So that is how we started tackling the problem number two, which is how do you get your agents to production?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":25,"time":"11:09","seconds":669,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And one of the key things that may impact that is gonna be multi agent orchestration. Obviously, as you alluded to at the beginning of this conversation, a lot of the first agents we saw were very simple. And now we're starting to move towards multi agent systems that can potentially solve much more complex tasks, but most of those aren't in production To actually deliver value, it's critical that enterprises have complex multi agent orchestrated workflows.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":26,"time":"11:39","seconds":699,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"What are the key challenges in achieving effective multi agent orchestration? And what are some promising approaches you may be seeing to address them? Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":27,"time":"11:49","seconds":709,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"A multi agent so there are three types of orchestration that we provide to our customers. Option one is the managerial orchestration, which is quite popular. I think Crew AI made it popular initially. Not Crew. I think Autogen was the first one to do that, the managerial orchestration, where you have an agent as a master agent and you have worker agents. The master agent can call the other agents at will based on what it is supposed to deliver, and then it completes the whole job. The master agent is responsible to complete the whole task.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":28,"time":"12:20","seconds":740,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"So, that's the manager agent concept. Then you have the DAG, which is a concept. DAG has always been around but LangGraph was the one to launch it from an HEDG point of view, directed acyclic graph, which allows you to have a workflow and execute step by step. I think flow wise GUI is a beautiful GUI where you can see how agents can stack one after the other. And Flowwise was not calling it as agent initially. They called it as just a, it was just prompt chaining basically.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":29,"time":"12:53","seconds":773,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"But that is where DAG comes into picture. Now, the more we started working with enterprises, we realized that it's not an eitheror. It is a combination of managed real orchestrator agent, but plugged in into a larger DAG orchestration of multi agent system, but still it was not solving the problem in very critical use cases. We realized that you cannot go production","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":30,"time":"13:17","seconds":797,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"for high complex use cases or scenarios like a customer refund agent, or a customer onboarding agent, or a say, retirement planning assistant agent, etcetera. You cannot go, especially when your agents had to transact or speak to a database system or an internal system of record, etcetera. We realized that we may have to bring in deep learning agents, machine learning agents, or code agents, or SQL agents into the mix.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":31,"time":"13:45","seconds":825,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"That improved the deterministic nature of the entire workflow. So that's where Lyzr came up with the hybrid flow approach where you're not restricted by a DAG or a managerial orchestration. You can now also bring in your deep learning, machine learning, and code agents and secret agents as well. So we built those connectors to platforms like Azure ML Studio or Amazon SageMaker,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":32,"time":"14:10","seconds":850,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"so you can run your ML models, DL models there, and integrate. That allows you to have a far more deterministic system. What about limitations?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":33,"time":"14:18","seconds":858,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Where are there still challenges that you're seeing with the current approaches to multi agent orchestration?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":34,"time":"14:26","seconds":866,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"Integrations is a very big challenge still. There are these fantastic API platforms like Merge and Composeo and Pipe Dreams of the world. They have few integrations available. But enterprise, if you go to enterprise, any enterprise above a $100,000,000, be it a mid market enterprise above $100,000,000 revenue or a large enterprise above $1,000,000,000 revenue,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":35,"time":"14:49","seconds":889,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"the number of custom applications that they have completely outweigh the standard service nodes of the world, SAPs of the world, Oracles of the world. So now integrating with these custom applications is a bottleneck today because there is no documentation. These are all ten, twenty year old applications running in these organizations. So documentation there without any documentation, you'll have to sit and figure out what is happening. Because even when you can build an API integration pretty fast. I mean, you have OpenAPI standard. You have MCP. You have Cursor. Throw everything into Cursor. It'll do something. That's okay. But","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":36,"time":"15:27","seconds":927,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"it's about actions. What actions can the agents take via the API on that software? So, someone has to define those actions. For platforms like Salesforce and SAP, those are already defined easy. But when it comes to these custom ones, it's not defined. So that becomes bottleneck number one. Bottleneck number two is the availability of tribal data for these agents to work on because they have to be LLM ready in a way. They are not LLM ready. They are scattered all over the place. They are of various","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":37,"time":"16:02","seconds":962,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"types. So, now you're thinking about building a semantic model on top, which is what Glean is doing pretty well, to be honest. They are able to bring all the data to one single place and build a semantic model. But organizations are not even there yet in order to even supply data to platforms like Glean. So that becomes bottleneck number two, data readiness for agents to really work on. So we've seen a lot of organizations,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":38,"time":"16:27","seconds":987,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"starting with agents that don't require a lot of internal data. So they're starting with those use cases rather than trying to, clean up their data. In a way, they it's kind of a fresh start, beginning of a new tech debt season all over again with AI agents coming in. But these are the two major bottlenecks that we see. The third one and the last one is capability or skills required to build these.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":39,"time":"16:53","seconds":1013,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"Because most of the enterprise agent platforms, as you may see today, are closed platforms. They are not developer friendly. It's either built by the startups themselves or it is pure no code. So when it's a no code builder, you can only tackle low complexity stuff because you cannot build high complexity ones like you build on Landgraf, for example. So, which is where","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":40,"time":"17:17","seconds":1037,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"the skill set and the training comes into picture. And we've been focusing on that's all the customers that we work with. Mandatorily, we actually do technical sessions for their engineering team, for their system designs team, etcetera, so that they can do things themselves. So these are the three major bottlenecks we see with enterprise adoption.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":41,"time":"17:41","seconds":1061,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It also sounds like you don't think low code or no code is gonna necessarily unlock the next level of agents.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":42,"time":"17:50","seconds":1070,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"Low code, yes. 100%, yes. You don't have to go through. For example, if you want to add, say, memory, short term memory and long term memory modules to an agent, you don't have to sit and code your way through the whole thing. You should be able to just enable memory in one click. And that's what you do on Lyse today. If you want to enable groundedness as a fact checking mechanism,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":43,"time":"18:15","seconds":1095,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"you don't have to sit and integrate and build the whole thing just in one click enable. So, low code specific is definitely yes, because it takes all the unnecessary repeat tasks and it helps you focus on the business logic because you get an API endpoint for the agent, which you can stitch together into solving the business logic with the multi agent system.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":44,"time":"18:36","seconds":1116,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"No code has its place. I won't say no. I think make.com is fantastic. NADIN is fantastic. We have a customer who has chosen two technologies as their go to automation platforms, make.com and Lyse. Make.com is for all the no code builders within their organization, which automates a lot of marketing, CRM, enriching, etcetera. And Lyse for all the business automations, their core business automations. They are an analyst firm, So we are looking at automating research and analysis, including,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":45,"time":"19:09","seconds":1149,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"structured data analysis and so on, and generating a final draft, etcetera. So these are I think this is how organizations will move forward. They'll have a combination of Make plus N8N on the no code side, and then probably an open source side like Landgraf, Autogen, AG2 or Crue, and then an enterprise, platform like Lysere. So that is what even I recommend because","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":46,"time":"19:34","seconds":1174,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"it's it's, horses for courses. Anything deep and highly complex. It's super complex. Go ahead and build your own thing from scratch. Don't even work build on any of these frameworks. Just build it from scratch. Get some best engineers and build it from scratch. But otherwise, we are looking at pockets. These are the pockets that would, be there in larger enterprises as we move forward.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":47,"time":"19:54","seconds":1194,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"How are you thinking about inter agent communication? Obviously, the standards here are evolving. Transparently, we're involved with an effort with LangChain and Cisco and Glean and a few others around agency trying to establish inter agent communication mechanisms. I'm curious how you're thinking about that. Yeah. No. I've been following the Cisco. I think Cisco initiated the whole,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":48,"time":"20:17","seconds":1217,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"thing, and and we're we're also, getting in touch with them. That is definitely one standard. But I can tell you this, all the big hyperscalers, they are going after this market. Yes. We've been in touch with AWS. We've been in touch with Google. They are bringing their own standards now to the market. Microsoft, as you know, will always be slow in these things.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":49,"time":"20:37","seconds":1237,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"But go AWS and Google have already started. There are few announcements that are coming out shortly. And there is an angle to this, and I'll I'll bring this out here. When you go to a large enterprise and when you say, hey. Where do you want your API integration to run? Are you gonna run it on a startup, or do you wanna run it on AWS or Azure or Google Cloud? They always prefer the hyperscalers because of the built in compliance and security measures that are in place. If at all they want their data to hop through a channel,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":50,"time":"21:07","seconds":1267,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"be it agent to agent or agent to system or agent to human, they want to rely on some platform that is far more, reliable and been around for a long time. I think AWS and Google has picked that, and they are now doubling down by building their own, agent to agent communication protocols. What Cisco I mean, I think that project is also quite interesting because,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":51,"time":"21:31","seconds":1291,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"it needs a lot of traction, a lot of adoption from the open source world, as you may know, for it to become mainstream. But I think these are a few interesting options that are coming out in the market. Time will tell which agent to agent communication standard protocol will win, but it's a very good start.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":52,"time":"21:52","seconds":1312,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"What's coming next as we enable agents to work better together? What are the new problems that are gonna start getting solved?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":53,"time":"22:00","seconds":1320,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"I mean, you see Jason Lemkin of SAST AI speaks about agents replacing SAS to some extent. He speaks on both sides. Sometimes he would say it doesn't. Sometimes he would say it is. But there is, I think, a much wider talk that, okay, agents are going to replace SAS to a large extent. And we've seen that in pockets as well. There was a deal that we were working, probably a few months back, even before we launched our studio.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":54,"time":"22:27","seconds":1347,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"It was a very large media organization and they wanted to move or they wanted to have ServiceNow agents. Interestingly, they decided to go with Moveworks and not ServiceNow themselves. And now those are good examples of how agents eat into software layer. But to me, the biggest unlock is always going to be agents replacing the mundane work that humans do. I'll give you another example. This is a large,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":55,"time":"23:00","seconds":1380,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"food delivery company in the world. They have 15,000 plus employees. And every June season, they had to do performance reviews for 15,000 employees. So just for those two months, they would hire a bunch of contract HR team, about 30 of them, just to do this job. Go speak to the employees, collect their self review, self assessment, go to their managers, collect their assessments,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":56,"time":"23:29","seconds":1409,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"compare them, prepare a report, come up with a detailed report. So now today, agents, which took three weeks for us to build and deploy, is able to operate at scale for 15,000 employees. So that is it's a mundane job, and I would say the biggest opportunity for any agent company here is not to go after the SaaS platforms, go after the human layer, go after the mundane work that teams are doing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":57,"time":"23:58","seconds":1438,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"And the next stage for these agents is to become a lot better at reasoning and start moving up the ladder towards some high skill work. Currently, they'll go after the low skill work, which is just doing these follow ups, etc. But the stage two, like 26, 27 will be more on taking it further up a notch and go after the high skill work. So, this is something that we are seeing,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":58,"time":"24:21","seconds":1461,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"glimpses of it already happening where agents are doing some high skill work as well. And as we move further along, the human in loop normally goes down and out, and agents become like agents would end up running 80% of an organization over a period of time as the maturity matrix improves.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":59,"time":"24:41","seconds":1481,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"As we rapidly expand this agent infrastructure, as we have organizations that are more and more reliant on agents, How do some of the concepts we've talked about already in this conversation, like low code, no code approaches to agent building and agent orchestration come into play, especially if you're trying to do things like ensuring governance, reliability,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":60,"time":"25:09","seconds":1509,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"transparency for AI agent development and deployment?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":61,"time":"25:13","seconds":1513,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"I think for the first time, we enterprises are spoiled for choices. There's never been a scenario before like this. If you think of CRMs, yeah, there are a few CRMs in the market. If you think of databases, you would always choose within, say, MySQL or Postgres or a SQL Server or Oracle. You know your choices. It's not a big deal. But in the agent side, because everything still is an LLM eventually end of the day, a prompt call to an LLM in and out.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":62,"time":"25:40","seconds":1540,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"Organizations like us, we have tons of opportunities to build complexity over and above. To give you an idea, we had, one of the, again, one of the largest bank who came to us with a problem. How do you handle agent entitlements? What if a finance agent is somehow, by mistake or by intention, the developer connects a marketing agent with the finance agent, and the marketing agent goes and writes a blog post by","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":63,"time":"26:09","seconds":1569,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"wherein it uses all the financial projections of the of the company as an internal data. How do you how do you prevent the finance agent from sharing this data with the marketing agent? Even though the developer who's a creator, who has all the admin rights did that. So which led us to build what we call as an agent entitlement policy. Now age, when you enable that, agents are now context aware. So their context aware,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":64,"time":"26:36","seconds":1596,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"access control aspect kicks in and their context aware, they understand which is the other agent. Can I share the data with that agent? And so these are the newer problems that we are tackling already. The other big problem that we're tackling is what happens when you share a feedback, be it a human feedback or a system feedback, to a multi agent setup. Think of this multi agent setup","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":65,"time":"27:00","seconds":1620,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"which has DAG and I would say managerial orchestration, etc. So, how can a feedback agent interpret and send individual updates to individual agents, to the respective agents, and then automatically run all the test cases. So, it has to pass all the test cases, and then the new version of agents get updated. But if test cases fail, now you need a conflict resolution","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":66,"time":"27:26","seconds":1646,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"agent to kick in and it has to go and check why the conflict, how to resolve it and appropriately change the feedback. So this whole loop keeps running for several times. You won't believe such loop cost us $300 Just the amount of LLM calls it had to take and it had to complete the whole loop. Did it still fix? Answer is no. After $300 of spending, we had to stop the whole loop because we wanted to see if there is a self healing or an auto healing thing. We are not there. So these are the newer challenges that we are already facing as we get into the multi agent system, right, like feedback handling, agent entitlement policy, and so on.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":67,"time":"28:10","seconds":1690,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"And that's where the opportunity is. I see that organizations will end up choosing multiple frameworks, multiple technologies for various use cases. That's not going to be one thing that fits all. So, Lyzr, like I said, is going after the deep end of the problem. We are starting there because if we could solve it, obviously, you could solve the whole thing else. But we are going after the deep end of the problem. But there are N8Ns and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":68,"time":"28:38","seconds":1718,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"make.com will be very prominent, if you ask me, because that gives power to a lot more business users to build automations on the fly.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":69,"time":"28:48","seconds":1728,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So, yeah. So that's the world that VC would evolve over a period of time. Yeah, it definitely feels like there is this amazing opportunity for self learning or self healing agents, however you want to find them. But creating that continuous learning loop is still challenging without human feedback right now. Yes. Because often they'll hair off in the wrong direction and the actual result may not be completed. And also that's something we've done with our own metrics here around agents is tracking","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":70,"time":"29:15","seconds":1755,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"things like action completion, it's like, did the agent actually finish what you needed it to do? And sometimes the answer is no. So it's always interesting to have that kind of visibility, and I would argue very crucial to enable an observability layer and start to set up those metrics so you can actually sufficiently and effectively solve these self healing and continuous learning challenges. How are you approaching","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":71,"time":"29:41","seconds":1781,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"evaluation with agents today? Yes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":72,"time":"29:44","seconds":1784,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"Very good point. This opens up to another major trend that we are seeing. You see the usage of local open source models versus third party frontier models like GPT and Claude.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":73,"time":"29:59","seconds":1799,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Absolutely. Much cheaper in many cases. That's for sure. Much cheaper.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-73","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":74,"time":"30:03","seconds":1803,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"And it gives you it gives an enterprise an option to run thousands of loops if you want, thousands of experiments, and the data still remains within your organization, more importantly. And your cost of experiment is like 100 times cheaper compared to running it on, GPT or clouds of the world. And we're we're seeing this big shift happening. For example, we're working very closely with the Amazon,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-74","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":75,"time":"30:29","seconds":1829,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"the AWS team, the Bedrock team, where NVIDIA NIMS model and the MetasLAMA models are the highest, the number one, number two models preferred by banks and insurance at this point in time when it comes to local models. And enterprises are also realizing that the local models are the ones which will be their IPs as they move forward, because you continue to fine tune them and they become your IP, which is not going to be available with frontier models.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-75","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":76,"time":"30:56","seconds":1856,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"Or you don't want to share your data to frontier models to fine tune those models, actually. So, these are two aspects that allow now the eval part coming out really well. So, evals, there are two types of evals here. That is, obviously the accuracy, groundedness, and, the hallucination index, evaluating that part of an agent. The second one is test cases, the entire test case itself. Okay. Because all these agents are solving a business problem. How well are they solving the business problem? That is the second type of, eval, that happens.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-76","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":77,"time":"31:28","seconds":1888,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"And, and the cost of experiment comes down when you use local models, number one. And, this, this actually increases the case for companies like us because we want to push agents to production. We want the customer to get comfortable to run as many wells as possible, both at an agent accuracy level and also at a business level, so that they can take it to production with more with higher confidence. It's gonna be an evolving and the most important aspect as we move forward because with 30 wells, you are not going to push to production tomorrow. You don't wanna be that developer or engineering manager who pushes something and then something crashes and gets questioned and even gets fired. Don't wanna do that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-77","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":78,"time":"32:09","seconds":1929,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Relates directly to something we just released with Galileo, which is our updated agent leaderboard, looking at different datasets for different LLMs, different open source versus private models, looking at which ones are most effective for agents, and particularly most effective in consequential use cases like healthcare, finance, and banking, but across a broad set and multiple different metrics, multiple different data sets, multiple ways to slice and dice that. And I think it's really important that we continue to have open conversations about this because otherwise it's so easy to default to,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-78","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":79,"time":"32:46","seconds":1966,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"you know, a Claude 3.7 SANNA, which is a great model, fantastic reasoning model, does a lot of stuff really well. But if you're doing thousands or tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of calls to it in a couple of days, it gets really expensive. And so it's important to actually identify what your use case is, how intensive it's going to be, and figure out, do you need a custom trained SLM?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-79","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":80,"time":"33:12","seconds":1992,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Do you need that Frontier LLM because you're trying to push through and do some really heavy reasoning? Is an open source model maybe the right approach for you? It can really depend, and I appreciate that nuance that you're bringing to this because, particularly what we've seen in our research, and I'll link the Hugging Face leaderboard we have up. If folks haven't seen it, definitely worth checking out.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-80","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":81,"time":"33:33","seconds":2013,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"There is just such a variety in which models perform well, depending on which circumstances. And especially as we get to the customization piece that you're talking about with enterprise, it's so crucial that in order to build trust, in order to make them cost effective at scale, you really think through those architectural decisions and don't just default to, oh, this is the model that I expect because,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-81","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":82,"time":"33:55","seconds":2035,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"you know, Gemini 2.5 Flash came out, it's so much more powerful. I should just go use this.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-82","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":83,"time":"34:00","seconds":2040,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"It it is. And good that the benchmark report is coming out from your end because that will help organizations choose wisely. They don't have to they they will not end up blaming the LLM rather. They will know that it is their design and not the LLM's, in fact, to be blamed. And interestingly, the way I recommend to our enterprise customers is, hey, look at eval platforms like Galileo, for example, as the antivirus","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-83","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":84,"time":"34:25","seconds":2065,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"equivalent for your system because you need to have these checks and balances. If you don't have them, there is no way for you to explain when something absolutely goes wrong. Now, obviously, enterprises do ask us, okay. But you guys have safe, responsible AI in build. But we do cover the core the basic aspects of the very important aspects of it. Like, think of a MacBook having an antivirus software on top, which is good. The MacBook is secure by nature,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-84","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":85,"time":"34:53","seconds":2093,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"but having an additional, antivirus doesn't hurt you because it's gonna even catch things that probably the core, agent doesn't catch, which is exactly the kind of architecture that enterprises are looking at. They don't want, anything to be taken for granted. We are working with another very large organization automating their marketing functions all the way from blog post generation, ebook generation,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-85","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":86,"time":"35:20","seconds":2120,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"white paper writing, etcetera. It's a very custom mega workflow that they are building. And, for a smaller SMB, they will not think twice. They will like build something, chat GPT, copy paste, etcetera, and move on. Large enterprise cannot do that. They need their keywords to be there. They cannot allow competitor names to be there. All of these aspects come into picture. So in that scenario,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-86","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":87,"time":"35:43","seconds":2143,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"they are better off using or having a two layered approach. Okay, Lyzr handles something, but then Galileo handles over on top of it. So they are far more the architecture is architected better. And now in addition to that, like you mentioned, if they have the right LLMs to choose from for the right workloads, and if they give and fine tune some of them, it just increases the overall,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-87","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":88,"time":"36:07","seconds":2167,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"I would say, output in safe and secure manner, but also the quality of output increases a lot. So this is kind of the architecture, today as of now that we recommend, but, and we'll have to just wait and see how it moves from here on. But definitely, Evals are here. Evals are going to stay. Evals are how the AI engineers can keep their jobs safe because you have explainability at the end of the day. Can go and explain","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-88","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":89,"time":"36:34","seconds":2194,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"what happened, why it happened with eval logs, basically.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-89","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":90,"time":"36:37","seconds":2197,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Well, I don't think there's a better point to end it than on that wonderful note. For folks who are listening, you can absolutely find lyser.ai's entire suite on their website. They've got some amazing stuff on there. And I have to say, Siva's a great LinkedIn follow as well. So highly recommend it. I will check it out. We'll we'll link that in the show notes. And,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-90","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":91,"time":"36:57","seconds":2217,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"well, as Steve has said here, like, eval is crucial. They'll help you keep your job. They'll help you get your next job. So maybe check out galileo.ai. I'll take the shameless plug. Let's do it. Maybe it is.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-91","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":92,"time":"37:09","seconds":2229,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"We we've been following Terrelio AI for a long time, and I really like what you guys do. You're one of the three stacks I always recommend to our enterprise customers as well when they think about evals. So, yes, I would recommend the audience to check it out, and you can integrate and play around and try and break it. Right? That's the best way. Yes. Try and break and see and get your confidence going that way. I mean, with this kind of support, you're back welcome back anytime, Siva.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-92","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":93,"time":"37:38","seconds":2258,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It's been fantastic having you on. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Thanks, Conor. Thanks for having me. Awesome. Well, we will include links to everything in the show notes. And as always, listeners, watchers, if you're watching on YouTube, thank you so much for listening to Chain of Thought. If you are only listening, you really should consider checking out our YouTube. There's so much more content there, including great how tos, more webinars, and so much more,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-93","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":94,"time":"38:02","seconds":2282,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"over on the Galileo YouTube channel. Episodes drop every Wednesday at the same time they drop in your podcast feed. And if you prefer this audio format and you're just enjoying Spotify or Apple Podcasts or wherever you happen to get your podcasts, you know what? Drop a comment. Say hi on LinkedIn. Drop a comment in the Spotify feed, whatever floats your boat. We just love hearing from our listeners,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-94","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":95,"time":"38:23","seconds":2303,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and we couldn't thank you enough for everything you do for us. It is so much fun creating this show for y'all and having incredible guests like Siva on. So, Siva, thank you so much for today. It's been a distinct pleasure, and that's all for this week, everyone.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-95","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira","episode":21,"guid":"3f75206b-4922-4a4d-8300-7c4115eda969","episodeTitle":"Why Enterprises Need a Different Approach to AI Agents | Lyzr’s Siva Surendira","publishedAt":"2025-04-30","segmentIndex":96,"time":"38:36","seconds":2316,"speaker":"Siva Surendira","text":"Thanks, Conor. Take care.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/21-why-enterprises-need-a-different-approach-to-ai-agents-lyzrs-siva-surendira/#t-96","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"You could not even imagine the scale and the passion of the debate that's taking place in the translation industry at the moment. I think just looking at the metrics that we are able to capture as an industry and in my company, that trajectory towards human parity is it goes upwards like this. For some languages,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:20","seconds":20,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"less. For some languages, more. But I think language barrier as we know it is going to be erased. Welcome back to the Chain of Thought podcast. I am your host, Conor Bronsdon, and I'm excited to introduce today's guest, Olga Birgabaya, vice president of AI at Smartling. Olga, welcome to the show. Hi, and thanks so much for having me. So let's jump right in. Olga, can you catch us up on what's been happening in the language AI space and how it's changed over the last couple of years?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":2,"time":"0:47","seconds":47,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"Well, I think obviously the last couple of years, right, ever since that pay per attention is all you need came out in the world. The world will never be the same, and large language models are called language models for a reason, right, because they're built on natural language and all manifestations thereof, and we'll talk about it when we get to multimodality.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:05","seconds":65,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"But, obviously, a lot of exciting things have been happening since the introduction of transformer models. What I want to start from start with is though when we talk about language AI, I think we should be fair to rule based natural language processing and NLP. Right? And, maybe talk a little bit about, okay, so we start from rule based NLP. Right? Then we go to statistical methods,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":4,"time":"1:27","seconds":87,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"and then we get into the realm of actual machine learning that gets introduced into into into the world of natural language processing. There are a lot of instances where good old NLP, good old traditional rule based and statistical NLP is still working. Right? It gives us, like, we still have fantastic libraries and they definitely give us a lot of predictability.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":5,"time":"1:46","seconds":106,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"So I think what really I mean, the most exciting things that have been happening is the opportunities that we now have at scale processing natural language, and developing applications and tooling for processing natural language at the lightning speed that we could not have before. I mean, I come from the world of syntax parsers and rule based machine translation,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":6,"time":"2:08","seconds":128,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"and obviously took a lot of time to phase in one language. Right? If you look back to the days of AltaVista BabelFish. And what you can do now is exceptionally phenomenal, and I hope we get a chance to talk about challenges of individual languages. But at the end of the day, it's the pace, the accuracy, and, again, the scale at which we can process natural language, which I think is is absolutely truly phenomenal. Having said that, the Turing test is still a thing. Yes. It is.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":7,"time":"2:36","seconds":156,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Honestly, I think you gave us a great jumping off point here, which is challenges. I mean, we can talk about opportunities. I think a lot of conversations cover that. I'm sure we will. But I I'm curious what challenges you're seeing in this current era of translation and what what's coming next.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":8,"time":"2:52","seconds":172,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"Okay. So, I mean, again, there are tons of opportunities, and we'll touch on them later. The challenges, if I were to rank them in order of appearance, that would probably be first one would be lexical and domain coverage. Like, that would be the first one. And, maybe we would focus on Gen AI, but please take me away from the world of Gen AI because I definitely don't wanna be stuck there. And if there are other things, other techniques you want to talk about, be delighted to.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":9,"time":"3:20","seconds":200,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"But sometimes if you think about it, the models, the foundational generative models are trained on the plethora of world's knowledge, and that world's knowledge can be noisy. But even then, it can still not have the knowledge for specific domains and even less so in long tail languages. So I would say lexical domain coverage and accuracy of translation for specific domains,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":10,"time":"3:43","seconds":223,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"long tail languages, right? And there is huge, I don't know what color of elephant in the room, but there is this huge thing with most of these models are still English language and English phenomena centric, right? So as you get into longer tail languages, under resourced languages, this is where the challenges are. And for instance, me working at a company that provides translation technology","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":11,"time":"4:06","seconds":246,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"and human translation combined, AI powered translation, we cover every language under the sun. And this is where Language AI still falls short. That would be the next one. The other one obviously is biases. I know that we speak a lot about biases, but the less covered and less represented the languages in the model, the higher the odds are that biases will be introduced.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":12,"time":"4:29","seconds":269,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"There are cultural I mean, there are unintentional biases. We all know what they are. There are cultural biases, are historic biases, factual biases, all sorts of things. And they are magnified to extreme magnitude when you talk about multiple languages. And then we have good or good new hallucinations. Models do hallucinate and dealing with natural language, obviously want to have the most predictable","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":13,"time":"4:55","seconds":295,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"and most accurate output, even more so if you service different industries and some of them extremely sensitive to errors. And the model, it's like, I do horseback riding and it's like riding a stubborn horse with a mind of its own. And I mean, yes, you do have some controls in place, but at the end of the day, model seems to be making its own decisions as much as you think that you crafted the most accurate and most prompt that would drive the most predictable outcomes. So these would be my top four challenges. Oh, yeah. No. Sorry. Forgot. Inference time and latency. Apologies.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":14,"time":"5:28","seconds":328,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Apologies. Yeah. There is another one. I mean, there I think to your point here, there are a multitude of factors that impact our success here, whether it's purely with translation or with AI more broadly. And one of the key factors you mentioned that I think is maybe underrated is how English centric, a lot of this work is. And, there's incredible research being done in China and elsewhere, but so much of the business world, so much of the AI AI world is functioning based off of English focused models.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":15,"time":"5:58","seconds":358,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And obviously, that's great for folks like ourselves who are fluent, you know, very telling that I think this podcast is is an English language podcast. But it also means there are edge cases, to your point, where we have other languages that we're trying to translate with or trying to create in, and there are major blockers around that, or biases that that can come in. Can you expand a bit more on how this English centric nature of","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":16,"time":"6:24","seconds":384,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"today's AI models, particularly LLMs, is impacting your work?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":17,"time":"6:29","seconds":389,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"Absolutely. So first, it's very funny because sometimes you can have the lexical coverage. You can have the right word. But when the model starts describing a phenomenon Let me try and see how I can explain it this. So you can, for instance, read an article by an Italian researcher who was receiving, give or take, fluent and smooth Italian, but the phenomena that she was trying to translate into Italian were 100%","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":18,"time":"6:54","seconds":414,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"American culture centric. So first things first, you do lose on factual accuracy and anthropological and phenomenological local phenomena. So that would be one thing. The other thing would again be the accuracy of translation. Right? The accuracy of translation and sometimes you get completely random translation. Quite often, neural machine translation would do much better","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":19,"time":"7:16","seconds":436,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"than a large language model would do. So it impacts our work also, actually models do not react well or do not often react well to prompts that are written in languages other than English. And sometimes you would have linguists and sometimes you would have bilingual linguists, of course, but sometimes you would have a linguist creating a prompt in their native language,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":20,"time":"7:39","seconds":459,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"hoping for the best result. But then you quickly find out that a carefully crafted prompt in English will render a better result in the target language. So I think there are, yeah, there are multiple things. And again, factual inaccuracy is probably one of the biggest challenges. We also find ourselves fine tuning models with language specific data and domain specific data because that allows us to expand the language coverage","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":21,"time":"8:05","seconds":485,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"and domain coverage. Right? And this is where we are in the world of purpose built, purpose built models or models fine tuned for purpose.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":22,"time":"8:14","seconds":494,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. I think this is a really interesting conversation because while there's incredible value from English centric models and, they obviously have in like, these deep capabilities that can expand outside of English language, it also points to the edges of what's possible today and and where there's a lot of opportunity for AI in the future. And I think there's been some I'll say personally, I think it's been overblown, this idea of AGI. Like, if artificial general intelligence","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":23,"time":"8:43","seconds":523,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"is only working in a single lane language, is it really general? Is it general? Yeah. How general is know. Yeah. So I'm curious. You know, we talked a bit a bit about some of the challenges, the critiques, the the areas for improvement here. What about the opportunities, particularly with AI translation? Where where are you seeing these major, you know, successes recently or opportunities for growth?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":24,"time":"9:07","seconds":547,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"Okay. First, maybe we'll talk about industries or domains or verticals that benefit and so far have benefited most from, introduction of language AI or rather evolution of language AI. And the opportunity those industries are usually the ones that need instant translation, instant, reasonably high quality translation for shorter shelf life content, right, content that needs","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":25,"time":"9:34","seconds":574,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"instant immediate publication, informative, and actionable content. And this is where we would probably talk about industries like opinion portals, right? Or like Reddit, for instance, phenomenal successes with AI based translation. So industries that have slightly higher risk tolerance, Those industries have definitely experienced the biggest successes. Obviously, multilingual chatbots are a thing,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":26,"time":"10:01","seconds":601,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"but having said that, you need to properly train your multilingual chatbot, properly fine tune it. Otherwise, it's gonna for instance, if use it instead of or in addition to your knowledge base, it can quickly start giving inaccurate advice, but there are likely multiple techniques of training your multilingual chatbots on your multilingual knowledge based content.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":27,"time":"10:20","seconds":620,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"So successes, main successes, as I said, be shorter shelf life, higher risk tolerance. Now this is all without human in the loop. So these would be the main successes that we've seen without human in the loop. Now when you introduce human in the loop, I think the biggest opportunities are around the way translators work these days. If we think about the evolution of translation, we go from pure human translation,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":28,"time":"10:44","seconds":644,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"right, to computer assistant translation, or what we call in translation universe, CAT tools. From there, you go into computer assistant translation as a human performing the translation. Right now, I think we're in the age where AI does the heavy lifting, introduces predictability, does a lion chunk of the work, takes us much closer to human parity than ever before.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":29,"time":"11:09","seconds":669,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"And the human translator or fact checker or validator really compensates for the delta that AI is not able to cover. Now, what does it mean? It means productivity. On average, a translator can deliver 2,000 words a day. That's the metric. Now we're talking about, I mean, AI and the language model, fine tuned model performing well. We're talking about magnitude and order of magnitude.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":30,"time":"11:35","seconds":695,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"And then also, if you think about it, the well trained and well prompted model will give a very predictable output and reduce the potential for human error. So here you are in a package, get lowered costs, higher productivity, and much more predictable quality.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":31,"time":"11:53","seconds":713,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I appreciate these insights into the opportunities at UC, Olga. And I'd love to dive into the technical side of this a bit. What are some of the key architectural evolutions or innovations","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":32,"time":"12:07","seconds":727,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"that are driving progress in Language AI today? I would want to be very careful about limiting Language AI just to, large language models. Right? So I'd probably say that, I mean, first of all, one thing that the whole world, not just language AI is I wouldn't go with struggling with, but problem that everybody's solving is obviously the, computational cost,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":33,"time":"12:29","seconds":749,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"right, and the GPU consumption. I mean, that's, that's that's not that's not a secret. So I would say what's obviously driving innovation and the challenge that we're always solving is how do we minimize the computational cost and how do we what can we do? And for instance, we have a researcher on my team who manages to run and get amazing results with smaller models running them off her laptop. We're not going to be exposing her to that for much longer. She's actually she's getting a she's getting a big machine, but I would imagine that whoever manages to get the best outcomes","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":34,"time":"13:02","seconds":782,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"from the smallest models that consume least GPU power is probably going to win. And that, again, that's something that we deal with every day. Right? And that obviously drives latency. And one of the biggest innovations, for instance, in our platform and kudos to our engineering they managed to introduce queuing, caching, multithreading, and everything else that helps reduce inference time. Because I I would imagine that, again, it's not just us, but it's many other industries that deal with inference time, model inference time, and latency.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":35,"time":"13:34","seconds":814,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"So once that has been overcome, we actually that opened infinite opportunities for us to introduce generative AI and large language models into our tech stack. Because initially we service a lot of industries that, as I said earlier, require instant translation or instant turnaround. And then we say, yeah, hey, you know, we're gonna write the world's best prompt. It's gonna be X number of tokens. And by the way, it's gonna take five minutes to run. That's obviously not gonna fly. So solving for that issue was huge. Smaller models,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":36,"time":"14:05","seconds":845,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"latency solving and inference, great opportunities. Again, ability to fine tune, right? Because initially models were not trainable and fine tunable. And now different fine tuning techniques is definitely it's it's it's a huge it's a huge thing for us. It's very pleasant to see consistency in presence of availability of tokenizers for different languages. Because initially, again, if you feed Swahili and all you have at your disposal is an English tokenizer, it's not gonna get you far. It's gonna give you the most disastrous results.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":37,"time":"14:38","seconds":878,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"So, I would say tokenization from technology perspective and availability of tokenization. Same applies to multilingual vector space, right? If you want to phase a language, you obviously need to be sure that this language can be vectorized. So these are all They may sound like smaller things, bigger things, but if you look at them in Ensemble, that actually,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":38,"time":"14:57","seconds":897,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"these are the great opportunities that help us drive language AI forward. We operate in the world where tone and voice is everything. And you have a style guide and style guides can be a 100 pages, right? You have what we call translation memory. I don't know if you are familiar with translation memories. That's basically legacy translation, right, compressed into a database and existing in the as a parallel corpus, as a bitext.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":39,"time":"15:22","seconds":922,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"So you have translation memories, you have dictionaries, you have to not translate lists and style guides. And yes, you can feed it into a prompt, waste of fortune, make no money, you know, or you can actually apply Rag techniques and only fetch what's relevant from external sources. So I would say that Rag was a huge, huge, huge availability of Rag was a huge game changer. And we're definitely making the best of it in","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":40,"time":"15:45","seconds":945,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"our platform because we manage all those linguistic assets within the platform. And that's one of the examples. Yes, you can go out to external sources or you can actually have it all beautifully validated, clean, well prepped, well processed, well curated data, living all in the same platform at the same time, having to invest into expensive fine tuning or building 30,000 token prompts.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":41,"time":"16:09","seconds":969,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"These would probably be the main drivers that I would call out. Again, language expansion, course, coverage. The more languages are covered, the better. What have you found has driven success with Reg architectures and maybe what have been some of the challenges that have been experienced? As I would say that what has driven success for us specifically, and maybe I'm speaking a little bit from","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":42,"time":"16:31","seconds":991,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"myopic narrow space of translation technology and translation, But what has been very successful for us is exactly this, the availability of external data sources still confined within our platform and being reliable. So I think that's the best, like, that's probably the best advantage for us, Right? When you combine, generative AI with retrieval technology,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":43,"time":"16:54","seconds":1014,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"that's basically where you get get the best bang for your buck. Right? Because it retrieves and there are some fun things you can do there. Like, you can retrieve based on keywords. Right? You can retrieve based on concepts. Greg is a great way of mitigating biases and hallucinations. So that's another thing when you can obviously, when you can reference a reliable curated external source that's not inherent to the model itself, that obviously adds","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":44,"time":"17:18","seconds":1038,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"another level of assurance. A lot of great things come from combining generative AI with knowledge graphs, right? Where again, I think it's probably a face of a wreck where again, you get the best of both worlds because not only do you retrieve external information, but you retrieve it from a structured, organized environment.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":45,"time":"17:38","seconds":1058,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So I hope that answers your question. Yeah. I think that's a a great call. It makes me think that we should do like an end to end REG episode at some point. Because I while it's been out as a technique for a while, there's just so much you can do with it. And so you're giving me a lot of personal inspiration here, which I am appreciating. Another thing that stuck out to me about what you were saying,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":46,"time":"17:57","seconds":1077,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"a couple minutes before that, was you mentioned multilingual vectorization as something that's both an opportunity and a challenge. Can you expand on that and maybe define it a bit more for our audience so we can understand the problem and and and or opportunity there?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":47,"time":"18:12","seconds":1092,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"Oh, the problem is very simple. The problem is if you add a language that is not covered by a specific model, you can only hope that that model can actually vectorize this particular So you a vectorization. Yeah. Yeah. And if the language is not covered, you basically yes, you will still get it. You'll get an outcome, but it will be to a great extent. There will be, as we call it in the linguistic world, maybe called in other world, in other universe as well, upload and pray. So","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":48,"time":"18:36","seconds":1116,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"you are like, unless you have predictable vectorized output, you're really in the upload and pray territory. So I think that's the challenge. That's the challenge. And again, it's great for us to see that a lot of models and equally open source models and commercial models are getting really, really good at being able to vectorize multiple languages. The other opportunity is obviously how much information you can retrieve and the quality of translation you can get if you can actually have a multilingual or interlingual","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":49,"time":"19:06","seconds":1146,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"vectorization, where you can actually pull information across different languages.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":50,"time":"19:10","seconds":1150,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Is part of the challenge here around, I think, the English centric nature of models again, and how that drives translation, and then essentially that, the, like, the pre processing, pre vectorization of, like, the the chunking that's occurring is incorrect, and therefore the vectorization is off? Correct. Correct. It would be off, and then subsequently, everything else the model would be performing would be off. That makes total sense. Yeah. I I hadn't thought about that kind of","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":51,"time":"19:36","seconds":1176,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"preview of what would happen here. So but, like, it I think it's similar to when you see a hallucination introduced earlier in a system, and that kind of flows throughout because every piece of the workflow after that, if it's referencing that same data, can be Correct. Inaccurate. I'm curious what's been happening on another hot topic, of this year is agentic AI, obviously. How has that been interacting with the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":52,"time":"20:01","seconds":1201,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"translation space?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":53,"time":"20:03","seconds":1203,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"I I was so ready for this question. I was like, why I was even wondering, like, how how come it took us so long to get in touch with I got excited. Got a lot of other things to talk about. Was like, oh, go for No, actually I saving it for Ladder because obviously the whole world is talking about agents, right? Whole world is And capitalizing on when we're talking about opportunities,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":54,"time":"20:22","seconds":1222,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"I maybe deliberately separated linguistic nature of translation of translation AI and language AI, and maybe more workflow and processing nature of, translation AI. We absolutely are working with agents and agentic AI, and I think we all know, right, that agents are give or take new phase of robotic process automation perhaps, right? Individual agents that are built for individual purposes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":55,"time":"20:49","seconds":1249,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"And quite often we ask ourselves a question, what problem are we solving here? Does it call for an agent? Or do we are we doing just fine with rule based approaches?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":56,"time":"21:01","seconds":1261,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"First If things I need to raise money off this, I have to call it an agent. Sorry.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":57,"time":"21:06","seconds":1266,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"Okay. Call it an agent. So Okay. Great. So there are two things as we obviously know, there is agentic AI, which acts much more independently. And then there are individual agents that are fit for specific tasks, specific purposes. And obviously you introduce much fewer risks with just individual agents. And I'll bring one example in a second. Then if you actually trust your entire translation process with an agentic process, with an agentic independent workflow.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":58,"time":"21:39","seconds":1299,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"So I would say that maybe let me use one example, self healing. There are two vectors, two main vectors in the translation space and two main things people are working on. Thing one, quality of translation, getting as fast and as close as we can to human parody. But how do you know? How do you know whether you got there or you didn't get there? And that's where you go into the whole quality estimation,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":59,"time":"22:05","seconds":1325,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"automated quality evaluation space, which is absolutely crucial in our translation industry, right? Because we take responsibility, whether it's a B2B sector or B2C, we take responsibility for an factually accurate, actionable, and usable response. So if you combine the two, what happens? Say you've delivered the best prompt engineering or more conventional NLP techniques, and you've delivered the best output,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":60,"time":"22:30","seconds":1350,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"but then you run quality estimation on top of it and your quality estimator can say, Hey, you actually made mistakes here, here and here. And this is pretty inherent for instance, to our platform. Now, what a smart agent would do, would just say, Hey, let me go and self heal the whole thing. Let me execute on the task. We identified such and such errors and we would be dealing with stylistic,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":61,"time":"22:52","seconds":1372,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"grammatical, factual, and so on and so forth. Let me actually go back and let me actually heal everything that I've just identified. So that's something, there'll be an example that would be happening in the actual translation quality estimation and linguistic field. But it is much broader than that. A lot of decisions are made. For instance, how do you route your content?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":62,"time":"23:12","seconds":1392,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"How do you route it? Does it require human translation? Does it require AI with human validation? Or can it completely go through machine translation and translation with generative AI? And again, this is where you have a perfectly trained, perfectly fit for purpose agent that can make this independent decision and actually route it in the right direction. And then there are so many other things like","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":63,"time":"23:35","seconds":1415,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"translator assignment. There are a lot of things you can do where an agent can actually make an independent decision based on has this translator delivered quality? Has this translator delivered on time? Has this translator made him or herself available? And again, this is where an agent can make an independent decision and it takes a lot of burden off supply chain management.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":64,"time":"23:56","seconds":1436,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"So I would say that impacted the trajectory and the areas of impact are probably very predictable and shared with other industries.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":65,"time":"24:06","seconds":1446,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"But this is what is specific to us, basically decision making. I appreciate you drilling down on that. That's super useful. And I think illustrative of how complex the decisions around, you know, when to implement authentic workflows or or when to focus on other areas of the technology. How important do you think access to large datasets for continued advancement","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":66,"time":"24:28","seconds":1468,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"is gonna be in the field of translation,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":67,"time":"24:32","seconds":1472,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"and are there challenges around data privacy that may come into play? I would say maybe we'll start from, again, generalized foundational model. I think we've kind of solved the problem of accessing large datasets. Again, give or take, it's different for different languages, but give or take, we know how to scrape, we know how to, I mean, we know where to get that data. And I think now we are at the era of clean","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":68,"time":"24:55","seconds":1495,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"datasets and smaller datasets. And there are a lot of experimentations and a lot of successes actually, like say taking LAMA and building only language specific with very clean dataset and a smaller dataset, smaller language model that for instance would be specific to a particular language. So I would say that I'm a big proponent and probably the entire industry is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":69,"time":"25:16","seconds":1516,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"maybe I mean, there are obviously thresholds, right? Like for instance, you cannot fine tune a model unless you have like your 100,000 strings. It's not gonna get you anywhere. But I think we are at the threshold where we need to strike the balance between how much data do we need, but most importantly, how clean data do we need. So I think access to cleaner datasets and curation, data curation techniques are probably even more important in the modern time and day than access to larger but potentially noisy dataset. And probably what you've seen, and I'm sure you've seen it in other industries, yes, you have all the data under the world, You start curating, you start trimming, you start pruning. And before you know it, you land with a smaller dataset,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":70,"time":"25:59","seconds":1559,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"but it's absolutely fit for purpose. And it absolutely is going to address your needs. Actually, ironically, was just speaking just today, I was speaking to a colleague of mine about what kind of labeled dataset do you need to feed into the language model so it can help translator with quality predictions. And her biggest struggle is complete inconsistency because between what you have in your bite text, what you have in your glossary","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":71,"time":"26:23","seconds":1583,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"and what you have in your style guide. So dataset harmonization and dataset curation is probably more essential for our success than actual access to huge datasets. And we see smaller models becoming more and more successful, right? If you see, if you look at the recent models being released, you have X parameters, X parameters, and X parameters, and sometimes you see better performance on a smaller model.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":72,"time":"26:46","seconds":1606,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So similar to this question around data sets, where it sounds like really it's more the nitty gritty of how are you labeling data, how are you explaining data that matters more, Do you think that there has been an overfocus on massive, broad models that are maybe less explainable, less interoperable, versus this opportunity for smaller models that maybe have higher degrees of explainability,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":73,"time":"27:16","seconds":1636,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"to be leveraged with language AI? Well, it depends on what you want. Right? I mean, the whole idea I mean, we we touched a little bit on AGI. The whole idea between, behind generalized language models is they would do everything, right? They will give you a super recipe, they will summarize your legal proceedings and everything else under the sun. And obviously they are there for a reason and that was fantastic start. But I mean, when we come to explainability,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-73","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":74,"time":"27:43","seconds":1663,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"we quite often see again, you think you wrote the most predictable prompt, you think that you have the most predictable fine tuned dataset. And then the model spits out the least expected output when you think that you did your absolute ultimate best. So how far did we get? Mean, are we at the age of complete AI, Gen AI explainability? I wouldn't say so. I think there's quite a bit of black box and the bigger the model, right, the larger the model, the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-74","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":75,"time":"28:10","seconds":1690,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"more of the black box factor do you get. Now, with chain of thought, well, pun intended, but obviously with, who is chain? Obviously with chain of thought techniques, you get a little bit more visibility into what the model does because at least it explains its behavior. But, and obviously, like the reading of the latest generation of reasoning models are even more explainable, but I'd agree with you a 100%.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-75","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":76,"time":"28:34","seconds":1714,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"Purpose built single purpose model would provide much more predictable outputs and its performance and its behavior would be much more explainable because you build it for this particular task and for this particular domain.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-76","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":77,"time":"28:48","seconds":1728,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I'm really interested about this idea that you're bringing up of smaller purpose built models being more successful here, because it kind of goes against the long term bitter lesson of AI research, right, which was that general methods that leverage major amounts of computation are ultimately the most effective. That's what we were kind of taught for years in AI research. Now,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-77","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":78,"time":"29:12","seconds":1752,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"because we've hit a I don't wanna say a ceiling, but we've we've kind of reached a certain level, now we're finding so much more success with these purpose built models, these fine tuning techniques. So it's it's very fascinating to see something that I think we all expected would be true at some point starting to become true when it comes to things like translation.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-78","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":79,"time":"29:34","seconds":1774,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I I guess my my question would be like, do you think that's the case, or do you think we're just kind of at a a pause moment before the next more generalized model? What's your perspective on what the future looks like here? I think we are we possibly are","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-79","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":80,"time":"29:47","seconds":1787,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"at a pause and see what's next. As we, again, notice we follow the news, there are new models released every day. But you probably have read the same research which suggests that the more tasks the model can handle, the more the performance degrees on those individual tasks, right? Because at some point, the model becomes a jack of all trades, right, and the master of none if","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-80","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":81,"time":"30:10","seconds":1810,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"my English is not deceiving me here. But at the same time, obviously, nobody's resting on the laurels here. And I think that maybe the smaller models, smaller purpose built models, probably just a thing that will be outperforming generalized model in the foreseeable future until the developers of larger foundational models actually have mastered language handling, translation tasks, mitigating hallucinations,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-81","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":82,"time":"30:39","seconds":1839,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"and all the usual suspects. So I think it is an even a simple thing like language coverage. If you're following the trajectory of different AI models, we started fairly small, right? We started with like a specific model would handle well eight to 10 languages, eight to 12 languages. Right? And now when you look at latest releases from the technical giants that are probably I would not name, but we all know who they are. You see that the language coverage expands and we are extensively testing performance across different languages. And we do see that things that are now serviced better, but by smaller purpose built models are also being fixed in the larger models because they learn their lesson. And the more AI is being implemented","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-82","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":83,"time":"31:24","seconds":1884,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"in the translation space, the more feedback the researchers and the developers get from the field and the better they know what to fix. I also think, I mean, you touched on dataset size and number of parameters. I think we're overcoming that excitement about sucking every data that you can possibly find and whatever you do not find just augmented with synthetic data. I think that people are becoming much smarter with curation techniques.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-83","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":84,"time":"31:50","seconds":1910,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"So I think eventually, probably we will again, it's only my opinion, but I think eventually we'll migrate again from, okay, the smaller purpose built models are gonna, they're gonna be there, and they're gonna be there for a certain time, and they're gonna deliver,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-84","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":85,"time":"32:03","seconds":1923,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"but eventually the larger models will catch up. Let's switch gears a bit and talk about multilingual, multimodality, something we mentioned briefly at the the top of the episode. Can you explain for audience what that means and how it's developing?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-85","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":86,"time":"32:18","seconds":1938,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"So multimodality is obviously multimodality. Right? And we need to remember that the models can handle not just text and asterisk translation is not just text either, but models can equally handle images. Right? Certain model can handle videos. We, in our universe, for instance, we need to feed PDFs into the model, and sometimes it are flat PDFs. And there are a lot of","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-86","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":87,"time":"32:42","seconds":1962,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"different other modalities that models are now capable of handling, right? And many of them, some would be, again, purpose built models and sometimes would be general models that can actually handle multiple inputs. So that, again, opens infinite opportunities for the translation space. Let me give you one example, image generation, multilingual image generation.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-87","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":88,"time":"33:03","seconds":1983,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"For years and years, a lot of money was spent on what we refer to as desktop publishing, extracting text and, like, translating images. Now all you really need to do is just say reproduce this image in a target language. Right? Obviously, again, provide some certain translation guidelines to, how exactly you want to translate it, persona, tone, voice, everything else. And voila, there we go. You do not need to spend tons and tons of money on desktop publishing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-88","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":89,"time":"33:30","seconds":2010,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"Then there are multilingual digital humans. And we do see, maybe it's a big statement, maybe work. No, would say we're quite there yet. I mean, I would say that we're already quite there in terms of being able to support digital humans in multiple languages within a single model. If you look back in time, for instance, if we look at automated speech recognition and then text to speech, it actually took four steps,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-89","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":90,"time":"33:56","seconds":2036,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"right? You recognize the text, you run machine translation, you render the target translation, and then you generate the actual speech, the actual target speech. And now multilingual multimodality, you actually can conveniently fit it all within a single model. You don't need these three or four transfer Right. Okay. So that that again again very complicated because you have all the different potential routes to go down. Yeah. And every time, every step you introduce, you introduce potential fine error. Right? You're gonna have poor ASR, they're gonna have poor machine translation,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-90","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":91,"time":"34:27","seconds":2067,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"then you can potentially have like completely synthetically sounding generated rendered text. And now I think the multilingual and multimodal AI again presents tremendous opportunities, both for simplification of processes and for the quality of the output.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-91","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":92,"time":"34:43","seconds":2083,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"As we get much better at this multilingual automatic speech recognition, as we get better at the translation steps related to that, what will that enable when it comes to, as you put it, multilingual digital humans? What are we gonna see those leveraged for? Here we are in","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-92","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":93,"time":"35:02","seconds":2102,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"a territory where I would want to thread very, very, very carefully because we are in the territory of ethics, right? And we do see, we obviously, and ethics and regulations around AI implementation. Because where it would be applicable, I mean, obviously the territory of the universe of commercials, the universe of global communications, right? The universe of pretty much, I mean, in the entertainment industry,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-93","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":94,"time":"35:25","seconds":2125,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"I think the avenues where this multimodal, multilingual AI can make an impact, I think they are almost obvious. A lot of places where you would traditionally require human talent can now just be delivered with the help of AI. We have the most amazing in our industry, we have the most amazing examples and most amazing companies that deliver voices and not even synthetic voices and potentially of course by consent, voice cloning. So there are a lot of things that you can actually do that would traditionally require human talent. Again, I really want to thread very carefully there, The opportunities are there, but the fine balance between what is ethical AI","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-94","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":95,"time":"36:06","seconds":2166,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"and what actually can what the impact can be. I think that fine balance is something that we need to establish and need to establish rather sooner than later. Completely agree, especially as there are","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-95","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":96,"time":"36:16","seconds":2176,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"a multitude of perspectives on on what's allowable here. And, yeah, I think this is another one. You're you're giving me a lot of great full length episode ideas here. Well, I'll have to to have you back talk more about ethics. I think there's a a whole conversation here, and we can do a panel, and I I think it's a a conversation that needs to be had. Olga, thank you so much for this insightful conversation.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-96","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":97,"time":"36:37","seconds":2197,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I I've thoroughly enjoyed it, And it brings to mind a kind of capstone question for me, which is where are we headed? Will we soon live in a world where translations are happening seamlessly, instantaneously, wherever we need them, and language is gonna be removed as a barrier to communication. What what do you think the future looks like for translation enabled by AI over the next, call it, couple of years?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-97","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":98,"time":"37:04","seconds":2224,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"I I think I need to be very honest here. And, it's my opinion. And there's you could not even imagine the scale and the passion of the debate that's taking place in the translation industry at the moment. But I think just looking at the metrics that we are able to capture as an industry and in my company, that trajectory towards human parity goes upwards like this. For some languages,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-98","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":99,"time":"37:28","seconds":2248,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"less, for some languages, more. I mean, obviously, and actually one thing that we need to be very mindful of, one thing that changed now, we really started thinking about languages in groups, in language families, and manage expectations around language families. They're not perceived as individual languages anymore. We really know, Hey, here is what I can do for my romance languages. And probably","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-99","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":100,"time":"37:49","seconds":2269,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"we're gonna hit human parity for those languages much faster. And then you take a highly agglutinative language, or then you take like Finno Yogurt Group, which doesn't render itself that great to any kind of natural language processing. And probably the path to human parodies be, is gonna be slower and longer, but everything in research and implementation suggests that eventually we will get there.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-100","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":101,"time":"38:14","seconds":2294,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"And that eventually is around the corner. And it can be three years, it can be five years, but I think language barrier as we know it is going to be erased back to multimodality, not only as text, but obviously as a shared space for different modalities, be it spoken modality or video or text or anything. Now, the question is where's the role of coming from translation industry, where's the role of a human in this? And I think","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-101","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":102,"time":"38:41","seconds":2321,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"until biases and hallucinations have been completely solved for and until we have even language coverage, there will obviously be a role for linguists to help produce those datasets and even more importantly, fact check and validate. So I think it's a fine balance between, yes, we definitely are going to hit human parity at some point, both meaning wise and surface","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-102","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":103,"time":"39:06","seconds":2346,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"representation wise. But it's a question of what are we gonna do with it, and then we're again, what are we gonna do as humans? What are gonna do with language as industry language language industry professionals?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-103","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":104,"time":"39:16","seconds":2356,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"But are we getting there? I mean, yeah. Olga, thank you so much for this amazing wide ranging conversation. Where can folks learn more about your work and follow you and the work you're doing at Smartling?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-104","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":105,"time":"39:27","seconds":2367,"speaker":"Olga Beregovaya","text":"You know what? Actually, my biggest recommendation would be just literally, follow Smartling on LinkedIn. My colleagues and myself, we publish a lot, we speak a lot, we host webinars. So literally the best way to follow it would be, I mean, first of all, feel free to add me on LinkedIn. And second, the best way is just literally follow Smartling on LinkedIn. We're very, very diligent about keeping the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-105","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":106,"time":"39:52","seconds":2392,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"universe appraised of our progress on LinkedIn. I love it. We will make sure to link Olga's LinkedIn and Smartlings in the show notes. Everyone, thank you so much for checking out this episode. If you are enjoying it, make sure you're subscribed on whatever platform you are listening to. It always helps us to have your ratings, have your reviews, have your comments. We'd love to hear from you. It gives us a lot of great feedback, a lot of great data we can then feed into how we think about the show, and it helps us bring more incredible guests like Olga onto the show. And if there is someone else that you think we should have on, please reach out to me directly. You can find me on LinkedIn at Conor Bronsdon.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-106","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya","episode":20,"guid":"234eeec5-f216-4d01-9a70-f480a10117e0","episodeTitle":"Breaking the Language Barrier: Smartling's AI Translation Pipeline | Olga Beregovaya","publishedAt":"2025-04-23","segmentIndex":107,"time":"40:25","seconds":2425,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"That's it for this week. Olga, thank you again. I really enjoyed this conversation. Thanks so much for having me.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/20-breaking-the-language-barrier-smartlings-ai-translation-pipeline-olga-beregovaya/#t-107","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"Now you can ask someone what they want. You do it live and you have in seconds a prototype of what the person told you they wanted. The fact that you can do these iterations in seconds in a meeting room, it completely changes the way you work. So I think that's one of the great superpowers of these new technologies, is the ability they give you to iterate very fast and therefore innovate much faster.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:30","seconds":30,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Welcome back to Chain of Thought, everybody. I am your host, Conor Bronsdon. Today, I'm joined by my fantastic cohost, Atin Samuel, co founder and CTO of Galileo, and our guest, Rodrigo Coutinho, co founder and AI product manager at OutSystems. Rodrigo, welcome to the show.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":2,"time":"0:46","seconds":46,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":3,"time":"0:48","seconds":48,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Absolutely. I think Ottin and I are really excited for this conversation because","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":4,"time":"0:52","seconds":52,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"you co founded Ottin Systems nearly twenty five years ago now. In 2001, you've been the driving force behind Ottin's product vision, the focus on enterprise applications, which I know is something that Ottin thinks a lot about as well. And now you're obviously responsible for leading the charge in bringing AI to the OutSystems platform and helping your customers take full advantage of AI in the process.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":5,"time":"1:16","seconds":76,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And there have been so many changes that I know you and Aten have both seen in the AI landscape over those years. What are the big ones you've been seeing as you've evolved your work at OutSystems?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":6,"time":"1:28","seconds":88,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"Yeah. So so so it's been it's been terrific the way things have been involved on the AI side in the last few years. So when we began our journey at OutSystems using AI, we we already envisioned this future where AI could be used to help developers be more productive, to help them create better applications, specifically enterprise applications. And so we started investing that as you mentioned back in 2018.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":7,"time":"1:54","seconds":114,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"At that time, it was the era of deep learning neural networks. We also have some some other learning abilities that we added to to the the algorithms that we have. But it was essentially those old technologies, you know, that are seen today as old technologies that were helping us add these capabilities to the product to help developers. And some of the things we added","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":8,"time":"2:18","seconds":138,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"included things like trying to understand what's the next thing the developer wants to do. So give suggestions while the developer is building the application, what should they put there next. Other capabilities we've added were validation capabilities. So we would look into the, well not the code, we use a visual model to develop applications. So we had a mechanism that used automated reasoning to look into these applications and make sure they fit the standards in terms of security,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":9,"time":"2:49","seconds":169,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"in terms of performance and all of that. But it was pretty much what nowadays would be called old school AI, let's say like that. And then LLMs showed up. So these new large language models and specifically with the release of OpenAI that changed completely the way we think about these problems. And it was super interesting because very early on we saw the potential","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":10,"time":"3:17","seconds":197,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"of these technologies and we added a capability to our software that would enable a developer to add the sentence in English and it would translate into a database access. So that was the first time we tried to use these LLMs to help developers be more productive. This was before all this craze, so OpenAI wasn't open yet. It wasn't available for everybody, so we actually had the large linkage model running in house in one of our we had an instance here, everything was tweaked by us to to work, and so this was our first dive into this modern GenAI technologies. So it was obvious for us that this would change everything.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":11,"time":"3:56","seconds":236,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"So it was a huge step that we took. And today that feature is still there, by the way, so it's something that you can still use. But then of course things accelerated and we started to make even more use of it until we came to the point where we are today with with Mentor, OutSystems Mentor is our AI technology, where just by adding a prompt or giving a requirement document,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":12,"time":"4:19","seconds":259,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"you can build a full fledged enterprise application in just a few minutes. So it's really amazing to see where all the advances we've been having just a couple of years using these technologies.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":13,"time":"4:33","seconds":273,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, Aten, I feel like I've seen you have a similar journey over the last several years as AI has evolved, where you've had these distinct experiences across different companies, and obviously now on your founding journey at Galileo, where I'd be curious to just hear how your experience parallels or or intersects with the effects that Rodrigo's talking about.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":14,"time":"4:58","seconds":298,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Yeah. I think in many ways, my journey is almost eerily parallel to to Rodrigo's, especially with being in Galileo because we kind of started our journey with the old technologies that Rodrigo was mentioning, more from a data quality perspective. So, you know, the definition of evaluations in the erstwhile era before LLMs meant that, hey, you're training some kind of a language model in house and you have","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":15,"time":"5:28","seconds":328,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"training data that with labels and a lot of mistakes and noise in the data, which is dragging the performance of your model down. So which is what we primarily worked on before LLMs hit the scene. You know, we would build algorithmic ways to detect noise in your training and evaluation data to help to improve the quality of your in house models. Of course, those things, like Rodrigo said,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":16,"time":"5:53","seconds":353,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"the workflows have changed now where you can just prompt and get a very smart output from an API or an easily hostable, very large language model. But the problems have kind of evolved to the point where you're now trying to basically manage the quality of your inputs and outputs, whether it's the prompt quality that's leading to better or worse outcomes, or just the quality of the output itself, whether it's grounded in the context or whether it's complete and relevant to the input.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":17,"time":"6:27","seconds":387,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"So the problem the baseline problem remains the same, but, you know, just how you measure it and what you care about has changed. And in that line, actually, question for Rodrigo. Have you kind of seen the same trends when it comes to evaluations and thinking about the quality of these systems?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":18,"time":"6:45","seconds":405,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"Oh, yes, definitely. So one of the things that we are proud of is that whatever we generate is a valid application.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":19,"time":"6:55","seconds":415,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"So when it's done, it needs to compile, it needs to do something that's useful, it needs to be valid. And so we do all of those checks. So we use these tools in margin language models and we play with a lot of different models, now I was kind of smiling when you were talking about the evaluation, we keep testing and changing what's going on even without making that public. We're just testing it out and using","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":20,"time":"7:19","seconds":439,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"different models. But then we always do this validation. We use, as I mentioned, a model language. So that helps because we can in one step validate if the model is alright. But more than that, we also use other AI tools to validate if it's secure, if it's fast, if it's doing the right thing. But that's a big part of it because, I mean, we we we've all heard the funny stories of AI hallucinating, producing things that don't make sense or or the horror stories where it actually produces","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":21,"time":"7:47","seconds":467,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"problems in security and so on. And and so we have all these steps in the pipeline to avoid that type of thing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":22,"time":"7:53","seconds":473,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. And obviously, this aligns directly to OutSystems'","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":23,"time":"7:57","seconds":477,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"long term philosophy around both low code and AI of empowering developers to deliver custom apps in an easier way and empowering folks who maybe aren't senior developers to do more. Something that's really happened here in last couple of years is so many more folks are now enabled as builders, both through low code tools, like what AltiSim has done, and through AI powered coding and these other opportunities.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":24,"time":"8:21","seconds":501,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"How have you seen this current explosion of tooling and, you know, new reasoning opportunities align to your long term internal company philosophy, and how has the company transitioned over those years to adapt to these new technologies?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":25,"time":"8:37","seconds":517,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"The good news is that these tools are totally aligned with our vision. So our company vision is to allow every company to innovate through software,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":26,"time":"8:46","seconds":526,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"and so the faster you can create this software, the better the software is, and the more people can create it, the faster you get to innovation. So this ability that these new tools provide for you to experiment very fast, and that even allow you to improve the communication between the people building the software and those that are going to use it, Because what used to take months is before where you had the endless discussions and meetings writing up requirements.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":27,"time":"9:14","seconds":554,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"Now you can ask someone what they want. You do it live and you have in seconds a prototype of what the person told you they wanted. And so you can immediately validate if that's the because well, let's face it, sometimes communication fails, right? So so a lot of times what happened was people would ask for something, a month goes by, the engineers come with something that's totally different or that doesn't make sense. The fact that you can do these iterations in seconds in a meeting room, it completely changes the way you work. So so I think that's that's the actual one of the great superpowers of these new technologies","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":28,"time":"9:50","seconds":590,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"is the ability they give you to iterate very fast and therefore innovate much faster. So for us, this was amazing. This was terrific news. And we were really in the right place because having this low code capabilities, as you mentioned, enables you to have people that don't have that many knowledge about software development to also create applications. Now, we still believe that the tool is for pro developers and that they are the ones that that will reap the most benefit from it. But now other people can also participate in the loop. It's not an exclusive","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":29,"time":"10:24","seconds":624,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"benefit of pro developers. But most of all, this helps pro developers focus on the important things. So the old things where you you would take a very long time just trying to understand how small details of the technology work, being it tweaking CSS or or doing integrations or or doing that type of low level things, now that's instantaneous, and developers can really focus on what matters.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":30,"time":"10:52","seconds":652,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"That is, how can I help my end users use these to innovate and to bring the the business to a new level? So I think all of these things together are completely aligned with the vision that we have since 2001, because this is something we've been wanting to do since 2001 and allowed us to give this big jump with OutSystems Mentor. So we're very excited about this.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":31,"time":"11:13","seconds":673,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Rodrigo, on those lines, I kind of have a question for you from a quality assurance standpoint. I'm sure you think about, you know, how end to end,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":32,"time":"11:24","seconds":684,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"you know, the the user behavior of your application gets affected by the quality of the outputs. You mentioned the point about faster iteration. Couldn't agree with you more. Now it's much easier to, you know, have choices of LLMs, choices of tools, really it kind of comes down to how can you find the ideal combination that makes up your application in the least time possible.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":33,"time":"11:47","seconds":707,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"But of course, there's a penalty you pay from my perspective when it comes to speed, which is you have to figure out how to effectively, you know, quality control and evaluate these systems. So my question for you is, have you seen this trend that now with the more and more powerful models, the the inherent mistakes in the models are low, but the the onus has kind of shifted to the the surrounding components of the software and, you know, mistakes in those kind of lead to bad outcomes. The focus for quality is more around that and less around the specific LLMs","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":34,"time":"12:28","seconds":748,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"making mistakes. But I'm curious if you've had the same observations from your experience or have you observed something else?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":35,"time":"12:34","seconds":754,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"We did, but interestingly enough, more when we use these tools or when our partners use these tools to generate traditional code. So so we have this great benefit of having a language model that that abstracts a lot of the complexities","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":36,"time":"12:51","seconds":771,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"of what's happening in the details, which means it's also much easier to validate and make sure everything is alright. But we have witnessed some situations and we have some partners that even went to the to the lengths of of turning off these helper tools to generate code, because in the end, if you're only generating code, then you have a problem, which is who owns that code. So they had","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":37,"time":"13:18","seconds":798,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"an accountability issue where they had a lot of generated code that nobody understood or knew exactly what it was doing and it worked in the situation and suddenly stops working and there's nobody to maintain it or fix it because it's like nobody's responsible, nobody understands that code. So I think that's kind of a limit situation, but it does show that there's kind of this promise where with AI anybody can do applications.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":38,"time":"13:47","seconds":827,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"Not yet, right? You still need that expertise, as you mentioned, to be able to look at the code, understand it's doing the right things and be able to tweak it and to make it unique. And ensure it fits your architecture, ensure it fits your compliance requirements. All of this becomes much easier with the low code, so I think the combination of the two, it's really the secret here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":39,"time":"14:08","seconds":848,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"So now we generate full code, which means it's much easier to read and it's much easier to validate if it's okay. But yeah, we've been seeing all those requirements of looking, okay, so this was generated by AI, how do I make sure this is what I want? And and in in, and there are several ways to do that. On our side we do all the pre validations. We also do something that is when we finish generating an application,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":40,"time":"14:33","seconds":873,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"we also use the AI to generate sample data. Because that's also a great way for users to validate immediately if that's the result they want, right? So when you build an application, you run the application, you don't have just tables saying no items to show. You actually have a lot of data so that you can check it to see if it's alright. And then of course we have also AI doing the validation for the security and all of that stuff that I mentioned earlier. But yeah, definitely","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":41,"time":"14:58","seconds":898,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"the role of the developer right now, it's much more about being a team leader and doing code validation and making sure everything is alright, doing the communication with the business and orchestrating all of these parts rather than being a big pusher trying to make an integration work.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":42,"time":"15:16","seconds":916,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Can't help but kind of throw a shameless plug here. This is something that Galileo","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":43,"time":"15:22","seconds":922,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"focuses on day in and day out, to think of us as an evaluation co pilot. And like you said, there's two aspects to this. There's the quality of the generated code itself. A lot of people are using Cursor and similar tools to pretty much prompt their way into an application. So a lot of code is just auto gen by MLMs. So how do you validate the code that's being generated? Almost like a real time evaluation","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":44,"time":"15:48","seconds":948,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"on a copilot that can not only validate and give you insights on the generated code, but also create unit tests for you automatically for that code. So that's one aspect. I see it as like the micro benchmarking aspect of Evalves. And then there's the macro benchmark, is testing out the end to end quality of the application. Like you said, data sets are a big part of it. You're rating the data that you want to test your app with. We are kind of in the business of automating a lot of this, not fully, but really assisting the team leader,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":45,"time":"16:19","seconds":979,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"being able to do this efficiently. Create datasets, test your system end to end, and also test the quality of the code that's being generated. I know Google had, I think, put out this, statistic and this is dated at this point, probably like eight, ten months ago, that about 20 to 30% of Google's code was generated by an LLM, which is kinda crazy to think how big, you know, Google's code base must be. And this trend is only going up and up. So the need for, you know, robust real time evaluation as code is being generated","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":46,"time":"16:52","seconds":1012,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"is much higher than what it was yesterday.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":47,"time":"16:55","seconds":1015,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Well, and this is where I think Rodrigo's point about low code and AI is super interesting because not only are we seeing just more code be generated in general, but as I talked to Charity Majors about on the podcast last week, we are seeing this shift that Rodrigo is also alluding to around devs who are even at like a junior or mid level are kind of moving into the role that was formerly taken","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":48,"time":"17:20","seconds":1040,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"almost exclusively by senior principal staff engineers who were, Hey, I'm solving business problems. I've moved from just being a cogeneration person to, I am thinking about the business problems and I'm solving those problems. That's obviously always been an aspect of software development, but often as you were more junior, you would be supporting a team in doing this. And now you're seeing developers,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":49,"time":"17:42","seconds":1062,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"whether they're individual devs who are just building their own apps, who are being enabled to do that faster and actually really go solve a problem, or on a team level, they're being challenged to really up level themselves. And this is where I think you also see a lot of startups hiring a lot more senior engineers and saying, Hey, look, I want folks who are great at solving business problems because,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":50,"time":"18:04","seconds":1084,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"you know, we already knew that elite teams didn't have a problem generating code, and that the problem was more about the life cycle of software, identifying the problem, aligning the problem. But increasingly, we're seeing that be even more true with these tools that are enabling us to generate code faster, generate applications faster. This is where I'd love to ask you a bit, Rodrigo, about Mentor. Obviously, this is another take on how to approach AI application development and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":51,"time":"18:28","seconds":1108,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"building applications from the ground up. This falls under this idea of aligning low code with AI tooling, and this this mission that OutSystems has been on for a long time. But I'd love to understand a bit more about it, and and how you see Mentor","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":52,"time":"18:43","seconds":1123,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"playing within this ecosystem of AI tools that are enabling people to build applications today.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":53,"time":"18:48","seconds":1128,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"Mentor is essentially the umbrella for the AI tools that we made available on top of the OutSystems platform. It targets several stages of the process. We have first a tool that with a simple prompt or a requirement document, it will go from zero into a generated application.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":54,"time":"19:08","seconds":1148,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"And the way it does it is is in it interprets everything that you you type or that you send it and then kind of gives you a summary of what will happen. And this is an important aspect because we are true believers that the magic occurs when you mix AI with humans. So at every point in the process, we believe the human should know exactly what's going on and should have control to change or to influence the result. So this is like the first step where they can go there and influence that result.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":55,"time":"19:38","seconds":1178,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"Once you're happy with that, you just click a button and a full fledged enterprise application is created for you. So this includes the UI, it includes the business logic, it includes the database, everything is ready and it's ready to publish. So we make sure the application is valid, you have what we call the one click publish. You can click one button, we generate the container for you with the application ready, with the database ready, all the sample data all ready to go. So this is like the first step.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":56,"time":"20:07","seconds":1207,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"Now of course we know that, I mean, people forget to write stuff on the requirement documents or or the AI might miss it. Yeah, I know. Right. We all do. Or even as as I mentioned before, because you can do this in in the middle of the meeting with your business user, they can look at the application and they say, Oh, I just had a great idea. I wish we had this type of data so that we could add more capabilities to the app. And so we have this other tool that allows you to do this also using AI.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":57,"time":"20:39","seconds":1239,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"And here, I think that there are a bunch of innovations. It's visual, so that makes a lot of difference and all of that. But one of the things I love is that it gives you suggestions. So instead of demanding that the person knows exactly what they are going to do, so the developer needs to tell the machine exactly what he or she wants, we give suggestions. So based on the context, based on your factory, based on the application,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":58,"time":"21:06","seconds":1266,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"we we have an idea of what you wanna do next. So you can of course type your own thing and do your innovative thing, but for the usual patterns, it's already there. You just have to click it. It does it all for you. And each time you do one of these iterations, the application is ready to run. And so this is like the, let's call it the design in the iteration parts of of building the application.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":59,"time":"21:29","seconds":1289,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"And then I'll also, as I as I mentioned before, what what we did was we added a whole validation step on top of this. So when you finish building an application, your application is running, we have AI agents that validate for performance problems, security problem, compliance, all of that stuff. And so you have a report that you can go there, check what's working good, what can be improved, and then improve it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":60,"time":"21:54","seconds":1314,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"And then the final thing is, it's not only about using AI to build applications, you actually want to add AI to your applications. So we have what we call the AI agent builder, which is a tool that allows you to, by connecting to several models, OpenAI, Bedrock, Google, all of that stuff, you can create agents that then we we transform into a a low code element. So you have the visual element where you can plug AI throughout your application","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":61,"time":"22:26","seconds":1346,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"to do simple tasks like summarizing things or even so we we had this this scenario where we actually put an AI controlling a business process where based on it, they they would decide if something is approved or not. So we also make it very easy for you not only to use AI to build applications, but also to put AI on your applications to benefit your end users.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":62,"time":"22:47","seconds":1367,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And so I know you mentioned","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":63,"time":"22:50","seconds":1370,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"OutSystems had your own in house LLM that you were developing. Is that what's powering this, or are you leveraging, you know, an API from OpenAI or something else to kind of drive the creation behind this?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":64,"time":"23:04","seconds":1384,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"We use multiple models. So we do use our own models, but we also use OpenAI. So but but this is one of those things that maybe in a week this answer will be outdated, because we keep testing and validating and making sure which one works best and we keep changing it to give the best possible results. So this is something that the team is always looking at improving.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":65,"time":"23:25","seconds":1405,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Rodrigo, a related question to what you just said because I found it very interesting that you're kind of one of those rarer organizations which do both in house model building as well as leveraging what's out there. From a cost perspective, how do you see the trend moving towards? I mean, you're trying to figure out that, at least in my experience, we've seen this triad between cost, accuracy,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":66,"time":"23:51","seconds":1431,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"latency, and different combinations of those kind of suit different applications. But you've seen both sides of the coin. You know, the cost of training and fine tuning an in house model with GPU resources, etcetera. And then there's the cost of shipping your data to a different cloud and having rate limit impediments and all of that. Having seen both sides of the aisle, where do you see the trend going? Are you more seeing more bang for the buck,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":67,"time":"24:19","seconds":1459,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"you know, in house and seeing efficiency there? Or you feel like we're going to move to a place where, you know, fine tuning may not potentially be a thing that most organizations do?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":68,"time":"24:30","seconds":1470,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"So it depends a bit on the problem that we're solving. Whenever we can, we try to use this more public models. Because of what you mentioned, right? The fact that we don't have to host them, the fact that we don't have to train them and all of that,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":69,"time":"24:44","seconds":1484,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"it's it's it ends up being less expensive, mostly because also of the investment we need to make in people to make sure that those things happen. But then there are models that either because they use sensitive data or or because they are very tweaked and specific to our systems that then we need to make them in house. But again, it it depends a little bit. We we","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":70,"time":"25:05","seconds":1505,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"we tend to focus more on than the result that we have for our customer rather than the cost. The cost is something that's also changing a lot, funny enough, because our AI team is really very creative in finding ways to save money. It's something that they are always thinking about and so this is something that we've been able to shift back and forward. But I would say right now, whenever possible,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":71,"time":"25:28","seconds":1528,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"we use these public models because of the way they've been evolving. It's amazing how how you go from from Chattypiti 3.5 to four and suddenly there are a whole set of problems that that get amazing results, you know? So we want to take advantage of that and the capabilities of big corporations to train these models. But then of course, whenever we have compliance issues or more specific things, that's when we go in house.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":72,"time":"25:52","seconds":1552,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Got it. Got it. And also, would like to clarify that when I said fine tuning,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":73,"time":"25:58","seconds":1558,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"I meant in house fine tuning, not just fine tuning in general. I usually wear a T shirt that says fine tuning is a big part of the future. So I just want to clarify that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-73","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":74,"time":"26:08","seconds":1568,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Love to get some of Rodrigo's thoughts about the future as well, because it's it's very clear that OutSystems sees this opportunity to enable people across the world to build. Obviously that's been a huge part of your mission, you know, the entire twenty five years the company has been in existence. But what are the key challenges or opportunities that you see, Rodrigo, in the intersection of kind of AI, software development and creativity, which we're talking about here?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-74","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":75,"time":"26:35","seconds":1595,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"I see a bunch of opportunities in this ability to to change","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-75","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":76,"time":"26:41","seconds":1601,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"completely how how you think of software development. So this idea that you can do things immediately, so when you start thinking about this, right, when you can build applications almost instantaneously and have the right feedback and improve them on the fly, I think that's really going to change the way people relate with building software, right? Because right now it's seen as something that's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-76","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":77,"time":"27:04","seconds":1624,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"it takes a long time, it is expensive, and many times it's not seen as a possible solution. But if you truly want to be innovative, if if you truly wanna be unique and differentiating, you need to go that route. Because if you're using packages or something that everybody else is used, you're never gonna be able to to stand out from the crowd. And I think these tools, low code, together with AI,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-77","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":78,"time":"27:29","seconds":1649,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"bring this to a whole new level where creating software is much faster, much cheaper, and allow companies that before thought that custom software was prohibitive in terms of cost and time, Now it becomes a possibility and they can go that route. So I see a lot of promise in this new world where it becomes much easier and faster to create the software. And also because","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-78","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":79,"time":"27:51","seconds":1671,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"even companies that already were building, suddenly they can start experimenting much faster, which is also a big part of this. So if you can do five different softwares for the price of one, then the cost of failure becomes acceptable and you can start experimenting and doing crazy stuff. That's hard to see into the future exactly where that will bring us, but I'm very curious because I'm sure it will bring some very exciting things.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-79","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":80,"time":"28:18","seconds":1698,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"It will keep getting better","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-80","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":81,"time":"28:20","seconds":1700,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"as these models start.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-81","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":82,"time":"28:22","seconds":1702,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"So I'm very excited with this ability of models, take several types of information where you can get prompts together with requirements, together with drawings, together with photographs, together with, I don't know, a recording. It would you can have a meeting with someone from the business recorded, give it to the to AI and get an application from there, you know, or you can just catch on a whiteboard what an application would look like, send it to AI and create those applications. So I think this this multi model ability","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-82","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":83,"time":"28:55","seconds":1735,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"of these models will grow to accept different types of inputs more than they can accept nowadays. And that will also completely change the way in which you think about and ideate around software. I see a really bright future here in terms of what you will be able to do. I think the major challenges, one of them is this that we already talked about and the team was also addressing, which is when you are able to build a lot of things, it's also easy to do a lot of not so good things, you know. So it's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-83","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":84,"time":"29:30","seconds":1770,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"much faster to do the wrong things also and not in terms of wrongdoing, but really people being very well intentioned, but suddenly for some reason creating software that doesn't help or that spoils things. So this attention to quality, this checks and balances, making sure the software is properly done and secure and all of that, I think that will grow in importance.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-84","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":85,"time":"29:56","seconds":1796,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"And finally, I think another one of the big challenges is human nature. So we are in It's one of those situations where things change faster than people can manage. And so, yeah, great. So you can make five pieces of software in five days, but who will adopt it? Ability to then take these great pieces of software that are being created and these awesome ideas and get them adopted and used, I think it will also be the next step on","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-85","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":86,"time":"30:25","seconds":1825,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"the challenge of then making true use of these AI technologies.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-86","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":87,"time":"30:28","seconds":1828,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"I'm personally very excited about multimodal. Like Rodrigo said, this is just the beginning and there's so much that's already kind of the foundational layer of multimodal at the LLM side has kind of taken shape quite a bit as agents have picked up more at the application layer. So it's going to happen in the next ten to fifteen months. We'll see the first set of true multimodal applications","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-87","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":88,"time":"30:57","seconds":1857,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"to see the light of day, a lot of interesting technologies which have been developed, multimodal embeddings being one of them, you know, trying to make sense of information which is kind of baked in with text and images and video and building like a question and answer system. I'm personally very excited about those kind of sort of augmented Q and A systems, retrieval systems, leveraging multi modal.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-88","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":89,"time":"31:27","seconds":1887,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"But also, think, like Rodrigo said, we're moving fast. In fact, I would say there have been instances in history of technology where things have moved fast. But my personal take probably is like, it's the first time that the foundational layer, like the ingredients are truly so good that, you know, the pace at which we are moving on top of it is almost like very real. Like we're trying to build something that truly works. Often we've seen, you know, back in the day with the cloud technologies,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-89","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":90,"time":"32:01","seconds":1921,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"they they they kind of had step function increases over the years. But here it's like you you have the ingredients ready to truly build something super exciting. Again, like we're just getting started with with agents and multimodal. All this will come together to truly create something that we've never seen before. And to me, that's the most exciting bit.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-90","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":91,"time":"32:23","seconds":1943,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I'd be curious, Rodrigo, how","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-91","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":92,"time":"32:26","seconds":1946,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"OutSystems is thinking about incorporating these multimodal AI capabilities or or what your approach is there.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-92","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":93,"time":"32:33","seconds":1953,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"From a software development perspective, the idea would be to, as as I mentioned, to extend what we do now in terms of application generation and in the application changing, to allow, instead of just prompting in a text based requirement, to also allow you to add things like hand drawn designs or or a recording of the meeting or even a video. So so you could make like an animation showing exactly how you want an application to behave or you could record an application. Right? So so I could record myself,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-93","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":94,"time":"33:05","seconds":1985,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"I don't know, using a CRM and then I'll say, look, I want something like this, but now make it specific for for this industry. So that's the type of thing we are we are considering is is how can we use this multiple elements, put them all together, and in the end create something that's an enterprise application ready to go. More on the side of of how our customers can use it, what we are thinking is that there are a lot of amazing examples specifically with vision that have been happening","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-94","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":95,"time":"33:38","seconds":2018,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"more in the old tech that we think it can be bring, and so the let's call it traditional AI that we think we can bring to new world. So there are a few, for instance, we have customers that use AI on top of video images to understand the condition of a specific warehouse and make sure if it's full, if it's empty, how much storage you have and all of that type of thing. But it was a very manual process and with the training that Etienne was mentioning and all of that, so I think there is an opportunity to improve those models and to make them more accessible to more people.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-95","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":96,"time":"34:13","seconds":2053,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"And so it would be super interesting to see if if you had if you were able to build an enterprise application where you send, I don't know, the photograph of the building and immediately it understands what needs repairs, for instance, or of a warehouse and it knows what needs to pack. So this type of ideas. The same thing, of course, for audio and all of these things. So I think there is a lot of possibilities here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-96","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":97,"time":"34:36","seconds":2076,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"And also, so most of the real world is not text, right? And so as soon as you can have this video audio sensors, that also brings the door to something we haven't mentioned here yet, but that's also on the rise, which is the Genetic AI. So having AI actually be proactive on some of the things it does. So instead of just being a question answer type of thing, where you ask for something and it gives you the result, it could actually based on","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-97","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":98,"time":"35:05","seconds":2105,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"something that's happening in the world be proactive. So going back to the example of the warehouse, I mean, it should be able to detect that something's missing and immediately put a purchase order for toilet paper or or whatever. So so this is the type of thing that we are thinking about. How can we combine all of these pieces that are showing up and bring value not only software development, but also for our customers.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-98","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":99,"time":"35:28","seconds":2128,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"That's super interesting. Actually, I had a question on that note. So you're already offering frameworks and tools like AgentBuilder to your customers so that they can create their own agents and From your perspective, I'm curious to know some of the challenges that you're seeing both from a customer standpoint where customers are hitting certain challenges using AgentBuilder,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-99","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":100,"time":"35:53","seconds":2153,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"for example, but also you offering an agentic platform. What are the top of mind challenges for you?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-100","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":101,"time":"36:00","seconds":2160,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"The biggest challenge for me is funny enough, the fact that so this was a very particular technology revolution in the sense that it kind of mimicked the old technology revolutions where technology was more important than use cases, and that's kind of happening.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-101","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":102,"time":"36:22","seconds":2182,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"The biggest challenge right now for a lot of our customers is, okay, we know this is important, we know this is the future, but we still don't know how to use it or how to what are the use cases that can really benefit from this type of technologies? And this of course depends on the level of maturity you have regarding AI. We have a few customers that of course already know and are using in things like","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-102","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":103,"time":"36:47","seconds":2207,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"for ticket deflection on their support processes or for automating processes, having agents deciding if if a specific thing is approved or not. We have some interesting use cases of customers matching information between things like job offers and CVs, you know, that type of thing. But a lot of them are still trying to find the use case that will truly make this technology shine.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-103","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":104,"time":"37:14","seconds":2234,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"So funny enough, biggest challenge that we have is this need to educate people on exactly where this technology is shining and what they are good for. Because sometimes there's also this wrong perception that these technologies fix everything, which is not unfortunately correct. But they they are better at some things than others. And and so we need to give that education and then work on them in ideation","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-104","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":105,"time":"37:40","seconds":2260,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"to come up with use cases that actually benefit their their business. So the big right now, the biggest challenge is not the technological. It's it's actually this this ideation process and coming up with great use cases where they can can benefit from the technology.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-105","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":106,"time":"37:54","seconds":2274,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I think that's a fantastic note for us to close out on. And, Rodrigo,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-106","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":107,"time":"38:00","seconds":2280,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"we're very excited to to see what OutSystems continues to do in the coming years as you as you build upon this mission of enabling people all over the world to build. Where can folks who want to follow that mission follow you or follow the work that you're doing in OutSystems?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-107","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":108,"time":"38:15","seconds":2295,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"So you can visit our website, www.outsystems.com.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-108","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":109,"time":"38:20","seconds":2300,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"You have there the ability also to to try the platform and and to try Mentor on your own, so you can see it working and build your own application. And and if you wanna follow me, of course, I'm available on LinkedIn. Just just connect with me. Amazing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-109","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":110,"time":"38:33","seconds":2313,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Rodrigo, thank you so much for coming on the show today. This has been a ton of fun.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-110","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":111,"time":"38:37","seconds":2317,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"Thank you so much. It was a pleasure. Loved the conversation. Absolutely.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-111","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":112,"time":"38:40","seconds":2320,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And, Atin, thanks for chiming in with all these fantastic insights from your end as well. Always great to chat with you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-112","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":113,"time":"38:46","seconds":2326,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Likewise. It's it's very fascinating to talk to industry leaders Yes. Founders who are, you know, at the cusp of this incredible moment. It's quite amazing to be a founder in this this era because you get to have a front row seat to all the innovation that's happening. And, yes, people are figuring it out, but that's, I think, part of the fun part of the story.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-113","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":114,"time":"39:08","seconds":2348,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Absolutely agreed. And I I think this conversation really parallels","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-114","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":115,"time":"39:13","seconds":2353,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"one we had last week with Charity Majors, CTO and co founder at Honeycomb, talking about how you have to change, how you build teams for this AI era, and how you have to think differently about like where the bottlenecks are, the same things that Rodrigo is alluding to here, think, around The way you put it, Rodrigo, with like ideation is now this bottleneck, and Charity's saying about like the life cycle of code. To me, these really mesh well together with the workout systems are doing. So if folks are listening and they haven't checked out last week's episode, I think it parallels really well for this as a great follow-up to kind of broaden your thinking through this. And why don't you just leave us a quick rating and review while you're here, while you're listening? Those matter a ton to us. Everyone's laughing at me because I say this every week pretty much. But, seriously,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-115","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":116,"time":"39:56","seconds":2396,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"we we appreciate y'all listening immensely. We appreciate everything you do, to share the show. And more than that, we appreciate our guests. Rodrigo, thank you so much for joining us today. It's been fantastic.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-116","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":117,"time":"40:05","seconds":2405,"speaker":"Rodrigo Coutinho","text":"Thank you so much.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-117","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho","episode":19,"guid":"e8971e87-1166-4803-a933-c057d0fc1dd4","episodeTitle":"Low-Code AI: From Requirements to Apps in Minutes | OutSystems' Rodrigo Coutinho","publishedAt":"2025-04-16","segmentIndex":118,"time":"40:06","seconds":2406,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Awesome. Thanks, y'all. And we'll see you next week.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/19-low-code-ai-from-requirements-to-apps-in-minutes-outsystems-rodrigo-coutinho/#t-118","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"The superpower of engineering is doing and always has been. Software engineering is not about writing code. It is about solving business problems with technology.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:16","seconds":16,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Welcome. We are back on Chain of Thought, and I am your host, Conor Bronsdon. Today, I am joined by a powerhouse in the world of engineering and observability. You may know her Charity Majors, the co founder and CTO of Honeycomb. Charity, welcome to the show. Oh, thank you so much. I'm getting all excited. Powerhouse. I mean, I think it's a really fair phrase. I have been delighted to have the chance to chat with you before and watch a ton of your content, read quite a bit of your content. You're very well known for your strong opinions,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":2,"time":"0:46","seconds":46,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"for your insights on everything from DevOps to observability and the software industry as a whole. And many of them musings, you've been kind enough to post at your website, charity.wtf. It is the best domain. Right? I am kind of jealous, actually. It makes me think of changing it every time I see your domain. I'm like, oh, should I have conor.wtf? Like, haven't Yes. I done that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:06","seconds":66,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"You should. So you're inspiring me. I mean, this time we'll actually go through with it. This is gonna happen. Alright. Sidebar. I'm just curious now. What what inspired the .wtf","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":4,"time":"1:14","seconds":74,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"domain for you? I mean, as soon as I saw it, I knew it must be mine. It's like Romeo and Juliet. You know? You see each other. Your eyes meet. You're like, I must have you forever.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":5,"time":"1:24","seconds":84,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And and honestly, there are too many good posts to list on your website. You've been writing for ages. You clearly use that as a way to not only express yourself to the world, but, like, organize your thoughts and kind of teach. And if you're a listener to the show and you haven't already, you should absolutely go check out Charity's website. Again, .wtf,not.com.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":6,"time":"1:45","seconds":105,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"You will not only learn something new, but come across plenty of colorful language in the process, great reading all around. But today, I wanna start by talking about a piece you wrote that was also posted to Stack Overflow's blog titled generative AI is not going to build your engineering team for you. And too often, AI, for all its importance, has a way of taking up the oxygen in any room where it's being discussed.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":7,"time":"2:09","seconds":129,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"But as you have pointed out, it won't solve every problem that we have. And it's changing what it takes to build a great technical team in today's environment. So let's start simple. What was the inspiration behind that article in particular?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":8,"time":"2:24","seconds":144,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"There's this great book that was written recently, and I'm blanking on the name of it, but it was for developers who are interested in writing, just like kind of pitching them on why should you write. And for me, like, I did a little blurb for their book. And so I've been kind of thinking about this recently and realizing just how much I figure out about my own thoughts. I crystallize them when I'm writing. Like, there are things that I didn't realize I thought until","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":9,"time":"2:48","seconds":168,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"I put it down and I looked at it and was like, well, that doesn't seem quite right. You know? And I feel like I'm I always have like three or four things that are overdue. So like, why do I sign up to write anything for anyone else? Well, it's because if I'm writing for Honeycomb or writing for myself, it's like topics that I chose. And and when someone else asks you to write something, they typically have a prompt. And that often, I feel, tickles. It shakes something","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":10,"time":"3:15","seconds":195,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"loose in me. It it break like, I never would have thought to write this if Stack Overflow hadn't reached out to me and been like, would you like to write a post? And I gave them a few ideas. So I appreciate that about the writing process. It's like, figure out what I learn. I figure out, you know and and the one that you know, this was this was oh my god. This was almost a year ago now that that this was published.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":11,"time":"3:38","seconds":218,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"And it's crazy. It feels like the industry changes so much, like, every six months. Like, it's an entirely different industry. But you asked what the inspiration behind the article was, and it was really just kind of trying to unpack what does this mean for hiring? Because because a year ago, there was so much excitement about can we replace engineers? You know? And can we automate them out of jobs? And I sit in this weird place where I'm kind of in the cross","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":12,"time":"4:09","seconds":249,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"section of worlds between, know, there's engineers, there's SREs, which I very much identify as, and then, you know, founders and and VCs. And those are very different conversations.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":13,"time":"4:22","seconds":262,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"How do you think that conversation has evolved in the last year? And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":14,"time":"4:27","seconds":267,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"would you change anything that you wrote today? Or I guess what's your perspective today on it? Well, the other the other thing about that article was it was kind of a Trojan horse to just like it said AI in the title, and then it just talked about all of my strongly held beliefs about why you should hire junior engineers and build great, You know? Because I because I honestly don't feel there's so much about the present moment","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":15,"time":"4:47","seconds":287,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"that is not actually new. It's just intensified and accelerated. There are so many sentences where you could just replace AI with automation and be like, Oh, it's the same thing. Only a little bit faster and more intensely than before. It's 100% true. It's like nine times out of 10, you can do that. There are novel elements. But so much of it is think that engineers I think that people are being disingenuous when they say, oh, it won't replace people. I mean, automation","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":16,"time":"5:16","seconds":316,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"always the point of automation is that it replaces people. And so you need to pair it with, you know, what are people doing with that time? You know? And I feel like I this was especially true a year or two ago. I see it less now, but I was seeing creative folks go like they had so much fear about losing their jobs that they were refusing to use the new tools. Yeah. And that is like","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":17,"time":"5:41","seconds":341,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"that is the fastest shortcut to not having a job. You know, you can't you can't do that. You have to learn to embrace the acceleration, the, you know, the the amplification, the what can I do that's exciting and new with this? Like you that that's the number one tip I would take for people is it doesn't matter. It's the same with AI as it was with automation.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":18,"time":"6:03","seconds":363,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"The fastest way to make yourself irrelevant is to not embrace the new.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":19,"time":"6:07","seconds":367,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I can definitely hear this historical context you're applying, this understanding of the Wild West of of old tech, as you put it, and these different waves that have come before. What are the other lessons that you would advise folks who are navigating this new hiring environment, this new team building environment to take as they try to both leverage AI in their day to day jobs and understand how to differently move","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":20,"time":"6:32","seconds":392,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"in the world?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":21,"time":"6:33","seconds":393,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"Oh, it's such a good question. And the answers are all over the place, depending on whose perspective I'm supposed to be answering or representing. Right? Well, let's think maybe with the developer side first, and then maybe let's talk also about the CTO leadership side, since those are the two worlds I see you at the cross section of, as you put it. If you are an engineer and you're a senior engineer, let's say, I think that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":22,"time":"6:56","seconds":416,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"the superpower of engineering is doing. It always has been. Software engineering is not about writing code. It is about solving business problems with technology, which has historically included a lot of writing code. Right? But I think taking a step back and being like, it's about solving problems and how can we but like, it's also been something we've known for decades is that engineers are the value generating","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":23,"time":"7:23","seconds":443,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"engines of modern businesses. We have a lot of power. And I think sometimes we don't inhabit that power or recognize it or flex it in the ways that we should. And I think it's increasingly like we have to. We have to represent, you know, we have to go to bat for junior engineers because they don't have the power yet to go to bat for themselves. Right? Like, we have to be the ones that point out this is how you build high performing teams with the range of levels. You build organizations that are continuously learning,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":24,"time":"7:52","seconds":472,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"working on interesting, hard new problems, pushing their boundaries, like the work that you and then I and I feel like senior ICEs are the ones with the most power and relevance and context, and we can't abdicate this responsibility. Know? On a personal level, I think if you hate AI, you should really embrace it. Like, get to know it. Like, get to know it up close, right? Nobody cares about the critique of somebody who is, like,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":25,"time":"8:22","seconds":502,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"way away from it. They care about the critique of people who are who are knowledgeable, who are in the midst. Right? So the more you hate it, the more you you should embrace it. Absolutely. And it's an overdone phrase, but knowledge is power and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":26,"time":"8:36","seconds":516,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"engineers need to flex that power as you put it. So one thing I hear a lot of, and I think it's a fair take is that senior engineers and up are best positioned to leverage AI to accelerate their impact. But there's this risk happening where so many companies now seem to be just hiring senior engineers, just trying to find the most senior people because, oh, they're gonna be the most effective.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":27,"time":"9:00","seconds":540,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And as as you have alluded to here, that that feels like a potential weakness, not only for the industry, but individual teams.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":28,"time":"9:06","seconds":546,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"This is an apprenticeship industry, full stop. You know? Whether you've got a CS degree or not, like, over the course of your career, almost everything you learn, you learn at work. And and we learn from each other. Right? And I feel like it this isn't a new thing, but it's like, again, more so now than ever that people are looking for the most senior engineer that they can get for the least money, which is, I think,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":29,"time":"9:34","seconds":574,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"so shortsighted because it's really about the ability of the engineering team to ship. And that does not actually correlate tightly. I don't know. I feel like the best engineering orgs are the ones where everyone is leaning in and interested and curious. And the systems that you're building are rewarding that curiosity. And the highest performing teams that I've ever worked on were the ones with a range of levels where people were growing. I worked on some teams that were staff plus engineers,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":30,"time":"10:07","seconds":607,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"and they cut corners. And they're bored a lot of the time. And and nobody's asking the really interesting hard questions. Because, like, if you're implementing a login page for the thirty thousandth time, you're on autopilot. You're not actually that interested in it. Right? Yeah. It's not like when you do your best work. You do your best work when you're deeply interested in what you're doing. It sounds like,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":31,"time":"10:30","seconds":630,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"in your viewpoint, this narrative that's out there right now of, like, oh, we need just need more senior leader in teams is overblown.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":32,"time":"10:39","seconds":639,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"I also think that, like, today's juniors are sharper, more educated, more skilled than juniors have ever been. You know, when I was a junior, it was like, oh, can you drive the unit's command line or write some HTML? Cool. We'll drop you into the deep end and you'll figure it out. Right? Today's juniors, they can write tests. They know multiple languages. They are more And the thing is that AI can be really valuable to juniors too. I have a junior engineer, Roozy, who has written a great blog post about how they spend all day in the old chat GPT window just asking questions like, what about this? As long as they don't ask questions of the senior engineers next to them. But like by the time they're ready to go to the senior engineer, they have tried a bunch of like easy things. They've crafted a really great question.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":33,"time":"11:27","seconds":687,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"They're growing and learning faster than I think I've ever seen junior engineers learn, because you have the ability to iterate so much faster. You have the ability to have like your own personal coach. You know, I feel like there's this perception in the industry that if you hire a junior developer, it's going to be a net negative for the next who knows how long? And who can afford that? And I agree. No one can afford that. But that's not actually the reality. Like, the reality is when you hire anyone,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":34,"time":"11:56","seconds":716,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"they're going to be a net negative for a period of time. It takes a while to train and to transfer skills and to teach people the ropes. You know, if you if you hire a senior engineer who's seen these problems before, it might take you a couple of months. You hire a junior engineer, might be a couple months more. Like, honestly, most of the problems that most engineering teams have to solve are not that hard. You know, a lot of it just needed to get done. Hey. Hey. We can't say that on the podcast here. We gotta","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":35,"time":"12:25","seconds":745,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"don't reveal that to the industry. I know. Right? And and this is not uniform across companies or industries. Yeah. You know? But there's a lot of work out there that just needs to get done. And I've said before that intermediate engineers are often the workhorses of the industry if you're measuring productivity in terms of shipping features, responding to customers, because they come in in the morning, they put on their headphones,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":36,"time":"12:48","seconds":768,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"and they crank all day. And your staff engineers, your principal engineers are in meetings. They're doing cross team collaboration and coordination and which is what they want to be doing. Typically, they spent ten or twenty years in that with their headphones on cranky and they're, you know, they want to solve new problems now. But like, you need people who can just put their headphones on, write code, ship shit all day long.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":37,"time":"13:14","seconds":794,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"And then often your intermediate engineers are the ones who can really be, to use your word, the most powerhouses.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":38,"time":"13:21","seconds":801,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Let's say someone comes to you and they say, Hey, I'm just going to build, I'm building a startup and I'm just hiring senior devs. Of these AI code gen tools, they can just ship so much faster and then I can have them solve these big business problems because they have this broader context understanding.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":39,"time":"13:38","seconds":818,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"How would you advise them to build their team differently? What would be the How do we write? I don't think I would advise them to do anything. Interesting. When Honeycomb was small, when we were starting, the first two engineers that we hired are now our only two principal engineers. You know, the first three engineers we hired were solidly staff plus principal engineers. Right. But there comes a point because the biggest risk that any baby startup has is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":40,"time":"14:01","seconds":841,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"that they're going to go out of business because they're not going move fast enough. Your time horizon in a startup, you can measure in weeks or months, you know, but like you can't plan for more than, I don't know, six months if you're doing great, right? You can't see around that corner. You don't know what you're going be working on. And trying to bring a junior engineer into that environment isn't actually serving them. I'm generalizing grossly, but like, typically","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":41,"time":"14:23","seconds":863,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"but by the time you're planning not for weeks or months, but you're planning for years in advance, you should be able to bring some juniors along. They're an investment in the future. They are not an investment that takes years to pay off, but they are an investment. You know, they need a bit more stability, you know, in the same way that like you don't have four zero one ks matching for, you know, you're","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":42,"time":"14:48","seconds":888,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"you're not paying them much, you know, money. You're paying them in. You know, there are a lot of things that are kind of weird about early startups that we know are not how you build a long term sustainable company.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":43,"time":"15:01","seconds":901,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I think this is an important piece of nuance is a lot of folks who are giving us advice of like higher senior plus Yeah. Are coming from, oh, I'm just building my first app here, and I want to run quickly with it. I'm building Everything a small","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":44,"time":"15:16","seconds":916,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"when it comes to advice. It should come with, like, a mandatory disclosure label. This is my background, and this is where I'm coming from. Honestly,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":45,"time":"15:23","seconds":923,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"we would be a smarter world for that. It wouldn't be nearly as good for hot takes. So you know it's not going to happen. True. And I've heard you talk about this idea that this is something I think a lot of us feel, which is as people accelerate to, let's call it, IC leadership, the senior plus, the staff, the the principal, you know, they start solving these new problems because they have the context.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":46,"time":"15:48","seconds":948,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Maybe they don't want to spend, you know, eight hours a day in front of their keyboard or they want to spend a couple hours a day. Like the way they solve these problems changes. They try to, multiply their impact in different ways. And part of that is is something you've said, which is that writing the code is the easy part.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":47,"time":"16:05","seconds":965,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"Can you expand on that? It's a little spicy. It's a little, you know, it's it's not always true. But I always said I come from ops, right? So that's my bias. It's my background. It's my context. And the fact is that writing code compared to like maintaining it, operating it, instrumenting it, you know, extending it, tracking down really weird bugs, you know,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":48,"time":"16:30","seconds":990,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"writing the code, greenfield code is typically the fastest, easiest part of the lifecycle. And I think it's no accident that, you know, new technology always reaches for the, you know, the lowest, lowest hanging fruit. What's the fastest, easiest place that I can like show big impact and get raise a lot of money? Well, of course, they reach for code generation because","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":49,"time":"16:49","seconds":1009,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"generating code is a lot easier than owning it over the fullness of time. You know, it was the entry point that was easiest and made the most sense. And I think that, you know, Gen AI is what, two, two and a half years around now. Like, I think you're start we're starting to see companies start to, you know, change their focus to what happened after the code has been deployed. And how can we help people understand it faster and make sure it makes sense. You know, and I do think there's going to be this enormous sort of split. I think there's going to be an immense flowering of effectively disposable code where no one's ever going to understand it or be expected to understand it. It's just going to be","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":50,"time":"17:29","seconds":1049,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"generated despec. And if they don't like it, they'll destroy it and generate 10,000 more, you know? But then there's the code that runs the world. Right? The code that is itself like a big risk to mitigate. Right? The banks and delivery companies and anything with transactions. Right? And at the end of the day, somebody's got to understand that shit. Like, I can't really see past five years out. I don't I don't I'm not a proclaimer. Right? But, like, I don't see a path within the next five years to just be like, cool. Nobody's gonna understand my banking code. Like, I don't I don't see that. This is interesting because I I I do think there is this evolving","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":51,"time":"18:06","seconds":1086,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"difference between, like, consequential systems and less consequential systems. And a lot of the narrative we hear in media and online circles is around con or non consequential systems. Because it's it's more spicy. It's more provocative. Move fast. Yeah. You know, let's break some things. Wow. We're we've been trained to. Yep. Yep. But I mean, like, the advice you'd hear from the CPO of Databricks would be, yeah, build for the startups, but sell the enterprise. And to do that Love that quote. In a B2B industry you might might be in, like, obviously, you need to understand the consequential piece. You need to understand governance. You need to understand security. You need to understand the whole life cycle.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":52,"time":"18:47","seconds":1127,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I guess I would wonder, as we start to bring in all of this AI generated code, as we start to just adjust how the speed of code generation works, speed of certain parts of our team works, What are you seeing around changing team dynamics to adapt to these new pain points?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":53,"time":"19:08","seconds":1148,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"Yeah. That's interesting. Changing team dynamics.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":54,"time":"19:13","seconds":1153,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Can can you say more about that? Yeah. I I guess what I'm thinking about is, you know, like, I think we've for a long time, at a business level, it's you know, the reason to hire a bunch more engineers has been, oh, I have a lot more code to generate. And like, yes, I need some of them to be like solve these business problems because I do hire principal staff for a reason. But like, I need to generate all this code. I need to create more features faster. And now, like the actual code generation part doesn't appear to be as big of a problem. Yeah. I think we're seeing that pretty rapidly. Like, sure, debugging, it might be a bigger problem now depending on how you're generating that code. Yep. But, like, the where we have","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":55,"time":"19:50","seconds":1190,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I guess we've we've shifted right in this case on, like, where the problems are. Yeah. Is now it's like it's like, oh, post cogeneration. Yeah. Because now we're having these challenges. Yeah. Like, how do we have to rethink solving that? Yeah. I think that, like,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":56,"time":"20:05","seconds":1205,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"the teams that I think of as being really good, high performing engineering teams, for for them, this is not a new thing. But I think Right. That's not most teams, to be perfectly honest. I I think that the center of gravity being production, not preproduction, not your IDE, not your test, not you know, but like what's happening in production is like pretty central. Right? And the phrase","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":57,"time":"20:31","seconds":1231,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"test and prod or live a lie, which I have a T shirt that says that, it's like everyone tests in production, but a lot of folks have denied it for a very long time, which means that they haven't invested in it. And you can try that. I feel like you can often tell where a company's real priorities are if you read their engineering job ladder. I know of so many big companies that I will not name where it was just known that if you really wanted to be an E7 or a principal engineer, you needed to ship a lot of features and give zero fucks about whether or not they actually did anything. Right? You didn't stick around for the long run.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":58,"time":"21:06","seconds":1266,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"And I mean, there are risks on the other side too. If you if you overemphasize operating stuff, then you can, you know but they're one not ones that are as common, you know? And so like you really do need you need a balance. And and the problem is that when you try to codify something that is as nuanced as this, it always comes a lot of it will always come down to individual judgment, which makes it fragile","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":59,"time":"21:32","seconds":1292,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"as a system in a different way and in a way that business types really are less comfortable with. Right? It's a lot they're more comfortable with being wrong, but like solidly wrong in a direction that's fairly predictable than with like you're being nuanced and well, you have to make sure that the people you hire are good. But I actually think that this is sort of related to why","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":60,"time":"21:52","seconds":1312,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"the expectations of engineering managers have really shot up in the past few years. I think there are a lot of reasons for this. There are a lot of different ways. You know, for a while, was like, well, engineering managers do the people problems and engineers do the technical problems, which does not work because you can't actually disentangle or distinguish them. Right? So like our expectations of managers and their technical abilities has escalated. Our expectation of managers and their ability to, like, create an emotionally safe environment.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":61,"time":"22:21","seconds":1341,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"And, you know, they've escalated pretty rapidly. And I think that this is kind of part of it because we're just I think socio technical systems are extremely complex and that some of that complexity is irreducible.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":62,"time":"22:37","seconds":1357,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"As we rely on AI assisted tools, as we rely on AI agents and, you know, these other AI workflows to do different roles for us to automate different parts of what we're we're looking seeking to do. We're abstracting ourselves away from some important aspects of of different key delivery points. And I've heard you mention this concept of the cognitive decay. Others have talked about this and the risk around this with overuse of AI tooling without structure around it. What do you view as the implications for the long term development of","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":63,"time":"23:11","seconds":1391,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"engineering of the discipline? Yeah, there's a lot of science around this that shows that, you know, if you move from doing the work to just supervising the work, your ability goes down, like your expertise decays. This is not like an inevitability, though. It's something that, again, this has been around as long as automation has been around. Right? And, you know, I'm writing this talk right now for SRECon later this week because SREs","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":64,"time":"23:38","seconds":1418,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"sit in this interest they're risk managers. Right? And my pitch to SREs is like, we, with our elevated awareness of risk at all times, we need to make sure that we are like good lawyers. We don't tell you no. We tell you how to get to yes. Right? We help you choose tools with workflows that will help make you a better engineer because it's bringing you along with it. Right? You can imagine like an SRE agent agentic AI thing that's like supposed to be your SRE.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":65,"time":"24:09","seconds":1449,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"By the way, this is good, right? Most engineers don't have access to world class SREs. If you bring an agent that's only 20 or 30% as good as, you know, a great world class SRE, great for the world. But you can imagine an agentic SRE thing that's like, does it for you. Right? And you not only don't become better as an engineer, you weren't asking the questions, you become worse as an engineer. And you can imagine ones that like are like, Here's what I'm seeing. Have you tried this? And sort of bring","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":66,"time":"24:39","seconds":1479,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"you with it so that the longer you interact with it, much like if you're interacting with a great SRE, you'd be learning things about service discovery and exponential back off and retries and monitoring alerts and paging alerts and, you know, so much of software. You you touched on this a few times, and I don't think we really said it out loud, but like, software systems are feedback loops, right? The whole solution of your technical system is a big feedback loop made up of a lot of other feedback loops. And feedback loops can be dampening or leveling or amplify. And most of these are amplified, which means that the farther upstream you find it,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":67,"time":"25:19","seconds":1519,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"the bigger of an impact it has downstream. Right? Co review is feedback. Right? Deploys are like the grandfather feedback. Right? And the more you can tighten these feedback loops, the less cognitive overhead it takes, the faster you can move. You know, I use and observability is really like the feedback loop because it's the meta it's always feedback looping while you're feedback looping. Right? And like analogy I use a lot is like glasses. Like I'm whole blind. Right? So when I want to go driving down the freeway, I put on my glasses. Right? So that I can make course corrections","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":68,"time":"25:54","seconds":1554,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"it and doesn't even feel like a woah,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":69,"time":"25:56","seconds":1556,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"what?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":70,"time":"25:57","seconds":1557,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"You're just driving, right? And great source of your technical systems have good observability and good tooling. It feels like you're just building, right? Doesn't feel like you're off down rabbit holes just trying to you know, there's so much toil involved. And I feel like part of what gets missed in the discussion of who we hire and why we hire them is that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":71,"time":"26:22","seconds":1582,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"our company is our feedback loop. They're sociotechnical systems, too, right? It's not like the person enters and they are who they are. They will always be that person, you know. And yet we talk about it that way. Instead, it's like someone enters","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":72,"time":"26:37","seconds":1597,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and they become someone else while they are there working. And they change the social techno systems that are occurring in there potentially, too. Every person that changes, like, the melting of the technical systems and the social ones can change. Yes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":73,"time":"26:51","seconds":1611,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"Exactly. And and there's this, like, there's this internal incoherency in most hiring managers' minds where they really want a senior engineer to show up on their doorstep who's already done all these things before and could just be dropped in, pick it up immediately at the drop of a hat. But actually, really long term, they want to hire people who don't just want to do the same thing over and over","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-73","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":74,"time":"27:15","seconds":1635,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"and don't just want to be faced with the same you know, those are not your high performers. Your high performers are people who push themselves, who are you know, in the last time I was going out looking for a job, I got so pissed off because everybody wanted to hire me to manage an engineering SRE team that it was using MongoDB. And I'm like, I just spent three years doing that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-74","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":75,"time":"27:38","seconds":1658,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"You just it's just really what you want people to just that's not who I want to hire. I want to hire people who are restless, people who learn, people who aren't satisfied and comfortable with they're doing. Right? And so I feel like you kind of have to pick. Do you want to hire people for their potential and their hunger? Or do you want to hire people who want to do exactly what they're doing? Right? Because","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-75","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":76,"time":"28:01","seconds":1681,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"I think I'm being a little bit binary. It's not actually that binary. A little bit of both, as you said earlier. You want to hire people who are fast learners, who wanna do new things, who are up for new challenges, who are who are energized and excited by that, not not not frightened by that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-76","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":77,"time":"28:19","seconds":1699,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. And and I think it's something we often forget in these conversations, that are occurring right now about how to change teams, how to adapt to AI. Like, often it focuses on the leverage you can get from adding these technical systems to the social system of the, like these senior engineers. And there's a ton of leverage you can deliver there. No question. But","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-77","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":78,"time":"28:41","seconds":1721,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"if you want multiplicative leverage, you're probably gonna find it from bringing someone on who is more junior, who has an opportunity for more growth in their career Yeah. And giving them a technical system that can also multiply that leverage. 100%. Much more cheaply too.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-78","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":79,"time":"28:55","seconds":1735,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"100%. And if we're talking about really squishy things and the loyalty and the energy and the like, these people aren't coming in just like, well, I'm gonna put in six months here, get my blah blah. Like, if you invest in them,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-79","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":80,"time":"29:11","seconds":1751,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"people often want to invest in you back. Yeah. And one of the crucial things to enable them with is something you brought up earlier and something we've kind of touched upon in this conversation throughout, which is observability into their system so they can understand how to grow, how to improve, and and how to set up their team for success. And, obviously, you and Honeycomb have been leaders in this space.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-80","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":81,"time":"29:31","seconds":1771,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"But the concept of observability and engineering is evolving, especially in the context of AI driven systems. What are you seeing? You know, we talked earlier about how the center of gravity is shifting from preproduction to postproduction.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-81","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":82,"time":"29:44","seconds":1784,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"Like, the source of truth is what is happening right now. And I think that a lot of software engineers haven't really fully internalized that. And they feel very comfortable in their IDE, in their editor, running tests. And then, oh, that's someone else's. But I feel like in some ways, one of the biggest challenges that is being generated by this influx of generated code is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-82","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":83,"time":"30:08","seconds":1808,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"teams are used to debugging using one path, which is, something just changed. Who changed it? And who knows exactly what happened and why? I will go find the expert in this thing that just happened and they will figure it out. And what if there's no expert? What if no one actually understands it or ever understood it? And what if, you know, what if you need to understand production on its own","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-83","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":84,"time":"30:32","seconds":1832,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"terms? And that's all you've got. And there are some really interesting things, implications here for instrumentation and for what metadata you attach and all this stuff. But like, this was kind of the founding story of Honeycomb almost a decade ago because Christine and I met at Parse, mobile back end of the service, million mobile apps running on it. And every day, you know, we had developers all over the world just like writing snippets of JavaScript and uploading them. And we just had to make it all work.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-84","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":85,"time":"31:01","seconds":1861,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"We couldn't track them down. You know, and these are you know, some of them are interns, some of them are principal engineers you didn't know. Right? And like, what you need to understand that code when it hits your system is very different. And this is, I feel like, really what the entire world is grappling with at this moment.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-85","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":86,"time":"31:19","seconds":1879,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I'd love for you to dive a little deeper here in your perspective on these AI driven systems and how we need to do more on the observability side or maybe adapt. Obviously, adding this element of nondeterminism adds a lot of complexity. What's your perspective on what's right for this future of AI systems?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-86","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":87,"time":"31:43","seconds":1903,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"You put your thumb right on the pressure point there, which I said so much of this is just like automation. Know, we've seen the story before.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-87","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":88,"time":"31:51","seconds":1911,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"For that 10%, know. Except for that little bit about nondeterminism,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-88","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":89,"time":"31:55","seconds":1915,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"right? Yeah. And like the whole premise of APIs is that you put in the same thing, get the same thing out. And I, you know, my my coworker, Philip Carter, wrote this great blog post about I think it's called All Under Weird New Kind of Computer. I don't know if you saw it, but it's incredible. It's been like stuck in my I owe him rent for sure. It's been stuck in my head for like two weeks now. But like, it's so true because, you know, where traditional computers are really good at very precise things and very bad at fuzzy things,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-89","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":90,"time":"32:26","seconds":1946,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"OLMs are like really bad at pretty very precise things and really good at fuzzy things, which is a lot more human shaped than traditional computers. And like that intersection of determinism and nondeterminism, I don't have any great answers here. If I did, I would probably be a multimillionaire. I am not. But it is definitely the interesting thing to be watching over the next couple of years.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-90","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":91,"time":"32:48","seconds":1968,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Definitely. Yeah. Our our research team has been doing a lot of work around like essentially trying to increase the efficiency of LLMs being used as judges within this context. But it's it's so important to not solely rely on these, like, automated nondeterministic judges, even as they judge other nondeterministic systems. Yeah. You have to have that continuous learning loop with human feedback inserted. Yeah. In order to, like, really effectively evolve these systems, I think. Pitching it as an","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-91","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":92,"time":"33:17","seconds":1997,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"analog to analogous to the advent of the computer is I think, you know, a lot of engineers out there are pretty grumpy about AI stuff. They're sick. You know, they're hit the hype, the you know and like, I get it. But like, it's kind of a reality that in tech, the scale of the hype often correlates with the eventual scale of impact. I think there's a reason people compare it to the Internet. Right? There's a reason people compare it to the Internet or the advent of the computer. And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-92","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":93,"time":"33:43","seconds":2023,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"not dealing with it or writing it off as just type is not going to help. It's not going to be you know, and I feel like for me, I've come a long way on this. I started pretty grumpy about it. And now I'm like, it is an opportunity. It is a massive opportunity. And it is one that if people are choosing to ignore, they should have their own very good reason for it. But I feel like some people, a lot of people are writing it off because they're cranky about it or tired of hearing about it. I don't know that that's a good reason.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-93","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":94,"time":"34:14","seconds":2054,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. I I think it's really easy for us to get stuck at a certain point, whether it's in our careers or in our lives. And this to me speaks to I know it's very common to use this phrase of lifetime learner or growth mindset. But I think it's especially crucial in this current era where we're seeing this massive transformation","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-94","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":95,"time":"34:34","seconds":2074,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"once again from major technology. It's not going be the last time we see this either. There's more waves coming here. And I get it. I did not grow up with a growth mindset, and sometimes it's exhausting. Sometimes you need to be able to get it. And it's tiring, you know? I get it. And and also this is I feel like why it's important to be a well rounded adult with other life skills, like cats","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-95","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":96,"time":"34:55","seconds":2095,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"and family members. And, you know, you've got to be able to turn it off. You've got to be able to ground yourself because if you want to have a long career in technology, this is what it takes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-96","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":97,"time":"35:06","seconds":2106,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Absolutely. And as a brief aside here, if you're listening to us right now and you're not watching us on YouTube, you're absolutely missing some incredible cat action in the lower left corner of my screen where you can't quite see, but you can maybe a little bit there there we go. Oh, hello,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-97","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":98,"time":"35:22","seconds":2122,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"Pretty. Oh, a pretty kid. Oh, anyways.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-98","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":99,"time":"35:26","seconds":2126,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"All right. Back to the upside. Charity and I get completely distracted. So as this as you've put it before, unprecedented influx of new software occurs as we enable everyone in the world to build software more easily, even more easily than we did with like low code tooling. Now it's just like, hey, I, I have a buddy I can talk to that's going to do this for me. I have that co founding engineer. How does this affect","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-99","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":100,"time":"35:55","seconds":2155,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Honeycomb's mission the kind of goals of what you're seeking to do next?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-100","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":101,"time":"36:01","seconds":2161,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"Yeah, it's a great question. You know, I think that over the next five years or so, you know, we talked earlier about this sort of bifurcation into like disposable code and the code that runs the world. We have always been for people who need to understand the code. Right? I think the big question mark in my mind is around I'm still trying to wrap my head around agentic stuff. Like, I think it's interesting. Philip and I have had a bunch of interesting spirited conversation and arguments about whether or not I think it's entirely possible that the action will move out of browser","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-101","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":102,"time":"36:33","seconds":2193,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"based SaaS, Right? And into I don't know. Previously, I was like, maybe I'll move into the IDE and we'll be able to just like, as we're writing code, see what the impact would be on production if I made this change. That would be super interesting. I agree. But now maybe it's moving out of the you know, I don't know. I don't know. What I'm not scared about is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-102","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":103,"time":"36:54","seconds":2214,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"a future where people who understand software are not valuable. Yes. Yeah. I don't know exactly what it's going to look like. But if there's anything I am sure about, it is that understanding how to fix software and and garden it and care for it over its life cycle is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-103","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":104,"time":"37:15","seconds":2235,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"still going to be needed. And observability is, I think really the broad term for what you're saying here is this ability to understand what's going on and the tooling that Honeycomb provides and that startups like us are working on for AI is going to be continually valuable, no matter whether you're an engineer or a product manager or whatever else. There is an opening here for sure. And I think like the trajectory of like the observability industry, I think, is going towards, you know, instead of all these really expensive little pillars, we're going towards, you know, a single consolidated","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-104","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":105,"time":"37:50","seconds":2270,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"data lake shaped storage where engineers interact with the data, but also it sort of unifies business data, marketing data, sales data, product analytics, because context is what makes data valuable. The more connected a piece of data is, the more valuable it is. And right now, I think we're going to look back in ten years and go, God, can you remember when every request entered","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-105","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":106,"time":"38:14","seconds":2294,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"our business, we stored in like 25,000 different places? And we tried to make decisions at right time about what questions we were going to need to ask years and like, that was insanity. It was so costly and so fragmentation of like, you know, and like, we've spent so much more time arguing about the nature of reality than we did about the problem we were trying to solve, and it's just absurdity. Right? Absolutely.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-106","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":107,"time":"38:37","seconds":2317,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. I won't name names, but, I was talking to, these engineers at a racing team when I was at NVIDIA GTC last week, and they were talking about exactly this problem. They're like, yeah. You know, as we've developed our vehicles over time, we have all this data from thirty years ago, from twenty years ago, and it's it's like, it doesn't all work together. There's all these different eras.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-107","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":108,"time":"39:01","seconds":2341,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"We need to figure this out. Like, we wanna apply Gen AI to maybe, like, help us do some of this cleanup, but also, like, what are we doing here? Yep. And, I I see that problem across the board, whether you are, an internet native company that has just added instrumentation, added new layers of observability over time, or whether you are a company that started pre internet and has these other implications where they've got hardware and software involved. And it it just does seem like there is this incredible opportunity for","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-108","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":109,"time":"39:30","seconds":2370,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"data to become increasingly useful, increasingly stitched together, and for the context to continue to just drive where we're going here. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-109","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":110,"time":"39:41","seconds":2381,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"Agree. Plus one.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-110","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":111,"time":"39:43","seconds":2383,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Charity, this has been fantastic. I really appreciate you coming on the show and sharing these insights. It's always so fun to chat with you. So fun. Do have any closing words you want to share with us or advice for engineers who are navigating today's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-111","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":112,"time":"39:56","seconds":2396,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"AI explosion? We started out by talking about my article about generative AI is not going build your engineering team. And I want to close by kind of circling back to that and saying that I have met several junior engineers in the last year or two who were hired in, who have bootstrapped, who have come up to speed. Every single time, it happened because not a manager, not a director,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-112","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":113,"time":"40:22","seconds":2422,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"because a senior engineer decided to make this important to them personally. And they lobbied for it. They volunteered to help source, interview, train, mentor. And you look at the smiles on their faces and they're just like, Yeah, it was worth it. It's great. We're going to do more. We have total support from management. And I just want to do it. I know this is traditionally seen as a management problem.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-113","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":114,"time":"40:48","seconds":2448,"speaker":"Charity Majors","text":"And maybe it is or should be. But I think it's an engineer solution. I see individual contributor engineers as the ones who are driving the only real solutions out there. So if you're out there, it just matters to you, know that I think you can do it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-114","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":115,"time":"41:05","seconds":2465,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I love that. That's a fantastic message. For everyone who's been listening or watching, make sure you follow Charity's work, whether at charity.wtf, honeycomb.io, and some amazing stuff they're doing, or all across the Internet. As always, thank you so much for listening to Chain of Thought. And if you are listening, consider watching every episode on the Galileo YouTube channel so you can see my cats","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-115","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors","episode":18,"guid":"0b276eb0-c920-4a4d-99f9-f25ecf239a7c","episodeTitle":"AI Won't Solve Your Toughest Engineering Problems | Honeycomb’s Charity Majors","publishedAt":"2025-04-09","segmentIndex":116,"time":"41:26","seconds":2486,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and others as I accidentally spook her out of her sleep. Episodes drop on Wednesday. It's the same time they drop in your podcast feed. Charity, thank you so much for joining us. So much for having me. It's super fun.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/18-ai-wont-solve-your-toughest-engineering-problems-honeycombs-charity-majors/#t-116","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"I think the market is underestimating how complicated the modern AI stack is and what developers need to master and harvest in order to deliver on those potentials that generative AI is promising.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:20","seconds":20,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Welcome, everyone. I am your host, Conor Bronsdon, here with my fellow co host, Atin Driosanyal, CTO and co founder at Galileo. Atin, great to see you. Great to have you back on the mic with me.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":2,"time":"0:30","seconds":30,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Always great to be here, Conor.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":3,"time":"0:31","seconds":31,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, we've had an exciting conversation planned here. We're joined by IBM's Doctor. Maryam Ashoori, Head of Product for Watson xAI. Miriam, welcome to the show. Great to have you here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":4,"time":"0:41","seconds":41,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"Thanks for having me.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":5,"time":"0:44","seconds":44,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"We're really excited about it because you've got over fifteen years of experience in developing data driven technologies, and now you're responsible for leading Watson xAI, IBM's AI development studio. Our listeners may know you as an expert in enterprise AI with two master's degrees in artificial intelligence and a PhD in system design engineering from the University of Waterloo,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":6,"time":"1:05","seconds":65,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"where you are also an adjunct professor, which is fantastic. I I I have to admit, I've always wanted to teach a university class. That's really cool. So it's such a pleasure to have you on the show. Let's jump right into your work at IBM. Can you provide an overview of IBM's AI strategy and how Watson X is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":7,"time":"1:24","seconds":84,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"fitting into that vision or driving it?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":8,"time":"1:25","seconds":85,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"Everything that we do is a reflection of the market. And it's been exciting to just watch how the market has been evolving over the past, I would say twenty four months at this point. Just looking past, I feel like last in 2023 or even early twenty twenty four, most of the market was exploring and investigating with generative AI. They were looking for a wow factor","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":9,"time":"1:48","seconds":108,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"and moment. But at this point, the majority of the enterprise market have moved past that moment. They have moved toward production and scale. And that's been the area that we've been focused on since day one designing. What are the requirements for enterprise for production production and scale when it comes to generative AI or AI in general. And it's been interesting to just see how consistent the market has been in terms of the challenges. The top three challenges that I've been seeing and basically that was the guiding principles for the design of our platform has been centering around one, ensuring a responsible implementation of AI.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":10,"time":"2:29","seconds":149,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"The second one is cost performance optimization. Like you're talking about the scale of enterprise. The very large general purpose models with large compute is not necessarily delivering what you need. So optimization, exactly the cost. And last area to focus on, which is accelerated with agents over the past year is how can we increase and capitalize on the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":11,"time":"2:58","seconds":178,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"ROI of generative AI, bringing this generative AI potential to every single of our enterprise, which is really taking advantage of automation to bring that level of productivity to every single corner. So these three areas optimization, ensuring a responsible implementation of the technology, and bringing automation to every single corner of enterprise has been the driving force for what we are designing as part of the platform for Watson X.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":12,"time":"3:29","seconds":209,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Atid, I know a lot of these ideas resonate with you. Do you want to chime in here?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":13,"time":"3:34","seconds":214,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"I think there's a lot of similarity between the kind of market that IBM's going after big enterprise and us, even though we're a much more smaller company, I think my experience from what Maryam just described with our customers is very similar. We spent a lot of time in 2022, 2023, really just sort of it was in simmer mode. Like AI was in simmer mode. And last few months has really seen a Cambrian explosion of agentic applications and the maturity of some of these orchestration frameworks.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":14,"time":"4:12","seconds":252,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"So very similar observations on my side as well. But one follow-up question for you, Maryam, given what you've seen in big enterprise, how does IBM kind of think about build versus buy when it comes to open source models as well as, you know, bigger models like OpenAI and Anthropic? Does IBM look at it as leveraging these models in their platform, or do you focus more on building foundational models from scratch?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":15,"time":"4:41","seconds":281,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"Yeah, so let's talk about, for example, cost performance challenge that we just brought up as one of the challenges. Cost performance optimization. If you optimized solution, what are you gonna need? You're gonna need LLM or a collection of LLMs, and you're gonna need a bunch of model customization tooling that is allowing you to take advantage of your proprietary data about your users, your domain specific","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":16,"time":"5:10","seconds":310,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"data to build something that is differentiated from the market, but is also delivering the performance that you want for your target use case for a fraction of the cost, right? So that's basically the problem that we are trying to solve. So in this story, in order to deliver on this challenge, what you're gonna need is to have access to a series of state of the art models, right?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":17,"time":"5:33","seconds":333,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"Different sizes, different architectures, different license terms. We have global customers. Maybe there are some license restrictions in one part of the board versus others. There is GPU restrictions in some part of support. It's like what are the requirements for running these models. Right? So you wanna have access to all of those. And it's the same for the toolings for model customization. There is a range of those approaches. You might just need prompt engineering and rag, or in some cases, they need full fine tuning and parameter efficient fine tuning or even alignment tuning, right? So the needs are different.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":18,"time":"6:09","seconds":369,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"We wanna have make sure that there is optionality and there are choices for your customers. And in terms of choices and flexibility, we've been also looking into where are these options coming from, right? So for example, for models, we've been leveraging the state of the art open source models. Like the first day that state of the art models goes out, we are out on the same day. So it's like our users should have access to that. But also some of them are commercial models. Like for example, we established partnership with Meta and Mistral over the last year. So Mistral Largest is an example of a commercial models that we have available in our platform.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":19,"time":"6:47","seconds":407,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"Or a customer may come in and they said, hey, I have a custom model that I made myself on my on premises or on another platform and I want to bring it in, import it so it's not in your catalog. So we have also expanded to import your own custom models. So basically delivering a range of options because we strongly and firmly believe that one single model is not the solution for a range of those. It's a mix and match. So that's the model part. The same for tooling part. We wanna make sure that we are integrated with ecosystems. So for example, you mentioned agents.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":20,"time":"7:22","seconds":442,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"Where are the developers these days? They are experimenting. They are exploring. Some are exploring with crew AI. Some are exploring with Lama Index. Some are exploring with Nangraft. We are blinking altogether integration to make sure that that optionality is available for experimentation. But also, we care about production and scale, security, privacy, deployment,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":21,"time":"7:45","seconds":465,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"like availability of the service, robustness, all of those in production, not just experimentation.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":22,"time":"7:51","seconds":471,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Miriam, I I'd love to understand more about how Watson X as a platform is differentiating from other AI platforms in the market. You've talked a bit here about enabling open source, trying to make sure that you access other ecosystems. What are the other ways that Watson X is different?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":23,"time":"8:10","seconds":490,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"Very good question. So back to optionality and choices that we talked about, we wanna make sure that our customers are not locked in, and that's one of the foundations that we have been focusing on, being hybrid. So in our platform today, you can take the whole platform and deploy it on basically the platform of your choice, either on premises or the cloud of your choice, right? Versus being locked in into one single model provider. So hybrid is one of them. The second one that we are really","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":24,"time":"8:43","seconds":523,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"serious about is trust. Ensuring a responsible implementation of AI. You saw that with tooling and models. For models, we started training our own models from scratch. That's our granite collection because we wanted to be comfortable standing behind those models and provide indemnification for our customers. Right? And we've been very transparent in terms of how the models are trained.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":25,"time":"9:06","seconds":546,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"And that's on the model side of the house. The same story for tooling. Like, we've been heavily investing on our governance and observability platform. What's an x dot governance? Like, every step of the way, like, who touched the model to do what, we automatically document the lineage of what happened. But also, we are building guardrails in place. Guardrails on input, guardrails on output, guardrails orchestrators.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":26,"time":"9:32","seconds":572,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"Right? Basically monitoring everything. So I would say that trust is very close to our heart and very critical for us, especially because we have a lot of customers coming from highly regulated environments like finance, insurance, health care, you can imagine. It's a serious thing for them. So trust is the second angle. The third angle is we recognize the complexity of the stack.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":27,"time":"9:58","seconds":598,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"I think the market is underestimating how complicated the modern AI stack is and what developers need to master and harvest in order to deliver on those potentials that generative AI is promising. Right? So from our perspective, we've been looking into simplifying the stack as much as we can, integrating behind the scene, integration between different components of the platform, but also integration with the ecosystem. For example, we mentioned Crue AI, we mentioned Land Graph. We are behind the scene integrated. So a developer comes in, they don't need to be worried about","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":28,"time":"10:35","seconds":635,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"maintaining the code or coming from third party or learning that. It's one single SDK. They they get the job done. Right? So simplicity is the next factor that I would mention. And that last but not least is automating, providing guidance as much as we can. We acknowledge that, for example, in this work, there are lots of developers getting into AI application development when","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":29,"time":"11:00","seconds":660,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"the depth of AI knowledge and skills may not be there. Like for example, we asked thousand developers, we ran a survey, they were built in The US, they were building AI applications. We said how comfortable you are with your GenAI. And surprisingly, the AI app developers that we talked to, only 24% associated themselves with knowledgeable and skilled on GenAI.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":30,"time":"11:23","seconds":683,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"So there is a big gap in AI skill development and development. Right? So we've been trying because of that. And why is it important? When you think about cost performance optimizations or any sort of optimizations, you need to have a knowledge of AI. Like, what parameter is that? Hyperparameter optimization is one angle. Like what is the right model to use? What is the right technique for model customization","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":31,"time":"11:48","seconds":708,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"tool to use? So we've been heavily also investing on automating those pipelines. So for example, for Rack, it's like how can I automate multiple Rack pipelines with different parameters and show developers the performance of which one yields a better one just to pick that? Right?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":32,"time":"12:05","seconds":725,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"And that's the fourth area that we've been heavily investing on.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":33,"time":"12:07","seconds":727,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Anton, I see you nodding along to a lot of that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":34,"time":"12:11","seconds":731,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Yeah, I think I do agree on a lot of things that Miriam mentioned, especially around simplicity, sort of meeting the developer where they are already in familiarity. And scale is certainly a very big sort of challenge, which is I would say unsolved in the agentic workflows because we're in the prototypical phase of agents and it's all very exciting. But one additional observation I have made is when it comes to agents,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":35,"time":"12:38","seconds":758,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"the interesting pattern of development would have seen, and this comes from my own experience having worked on the first version of Siri over a decade ago, a lot of the software engineering paradigms are coming back into play. And this includes frameworks like LangGraph, LangChain, who are essentially incorporating software paradigms and design patterns that have been known to work for traditional software systems.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":36,"time":"13:03","seconds":783,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"They've kind of been augmented and sprinkled with LLMs, and there's newer and fewer paradigms which need to be learned, like how do you do rethinking or how do you incorporate any agentic specific things. I almost see this as a sort of an amalgamation of what we've already learned around scaling traditional software, sort of meeting the new world of GenAI and the GenAI components that they bring.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":37,"time":"13:29","seconds":809,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"And I'm very optimistic and excited about the next twelve to fifteen months when all this will truly come together. And the real challenge will be some of the more fundamental things which Marian mentioned, like trust and accuracy of especially from an evaluation perspective, I can talk about it from a lens of evaluation and observability. We've always had problems of","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":38,"time":"13:55","seconds":835,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"observability in traditional software systems to root cause something, like how do you do it in an effective way. The same challenges are here, except that there's a few more newer paradigms that you're dealing with with LLMs in the mix. So I would say that a lot of things are coming together, And the challenge for effective, you know, building high quality and effective agents is really high quality observability,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":39,"time":"14:19","seconds":859,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"high quality evaluations. And that's something that is very bread and butter to Galileo, and we focus a lot on that day in and day out.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":40,"time":"14:27","seconds":867,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"That seems like it aligns with your perspective on agents as well, Miriam, and enabling developers to really go and explore this technology.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":41,"time":"14:36","seconds":876,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"No, he's right on. It's interesting to just back to the beginning that I started to talk about market, how the market has been evolving. It's interesting to see last year, they were experimenting with LLMs. They moved to production. Now we are going through the same thing with agents. The market is exploring. They are looking for factor. But when they go to production and scale,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":42,"time":"15:01","seconds":901,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"they cannot go to production without observability and governance. It's essential. You got to have transparency and traceability of actions and monitor that for agents. It's like, well, action was taken. Under what circumstances? And can I control that, right? And also over time, not just one time. So you're gonna need to see that tracing of information at build time and run time and after that over time, right?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":43,"time":"15:31","seconds":931,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"So these are the areas that like I don't think enterprise has been heavily looking into but once they are past that excitement about agents, these are one of the essential elements that they need to seriously follow-up on.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":44,"time":"15:45","seconds":945,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Absolutely. And I'd also want to add to what Maryam had said earlier about versioning and lineage. I think that's a topic which is not talked about enough, I feel. I'm drawing parallels to the age of MLOps","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":45,"time":"16:00","seconds":960,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"when feature stores were created and evangelized. As part of that, model monitoring solutions also came. Lineage and versioning and management, the data management side of AI, is extremely critical, and it will be all the more critical as agentic systems start to slowly scale because in the end, data is the fuel at the end of the day that powers any system. That is something that's never changed in machine learning,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":46,"time":"16:28","seconds":988,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"and that will still be the same for agentic applications. So having that layer of data management, lineage, and combining that with observability to be able to actually root cause when something goes wrong, and to be able to track lineage off. A lot of problems in AI essentially boil down to the data and it's the same story here with Gen AI and even with agents.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":47,"time":"16:51","seconds":1011,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"So that layer of data management is very critical.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":48,"time":"16:54","seconds":1014,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"I had an insurance company coming to me and say then, Maryam, it doesn't matter what the model customization approach is. If you don't have lineage and governance, I just can't use this because I need to know exactly what version of what model was trained on what version of data. And now with synthetic data generation everywhere, like, we need to know what was synthetic data, what was real, retain that data, and be able to audit it back and trace it back. That was an example of highly","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":49,"time":"17:24","seconds":1044,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"regulated industries. They just can't go to production without that knowledge.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":50,"time":"17:29","seconds":1049,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So I'd love to know more about what's made for successful implementations in these highly regulated industries. Obviously, IBM is an expert here. So something that for decades now IBM has","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":51,"time":"17:42","seconds":1062,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"done successfully. How are you making sure that you translate that success to this new Gen AI agentic era?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":52,"time":"17:47","seconds":1067,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"At the foundations of all of those, we really have the models and we have the tooling stack, right? Let's go back to that. On the model side, there is a deep need on a model that can they can trace back, be transparent in some terms of the training data that went into that. Right?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":53,"time":"18:07","seconds":1087,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"And just a portion of the models out there, you can actually get access to that information. So from our perspective, at least with our granite, we wanted to make sure that one, we establish a trustworthy governance process around the training of the model that we can document the lineage of what happens and filter out the data, like for example, toxic information and copyrighted information and all of those","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":54,"time":"18:31","seconds":1111,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"to best of our knowledge and keep updating that. But also be transparent with the market about how they are trained and provide client indemnification. So basically we are like, okay, so this is our strategy to cover you on the model side, right? On the tooling side, it's hand in hand. It's like you grab the pre trained models, but then through the input and instructions,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":55,"time":"18:56","seconds":1136,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"can nudge the model to potentially create an undesirable output, right, independent from what the model was. So it's essential for you to automatically document the lineage of that and stop that. So for agents, it amplifies. Why? Because for LLMs of last year, the absolute worst thing that could happen was LLM creating some content that was inappropriate. Agents","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":56,"time":"19:22","seconds":1162,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"can take actions. Actions have consequences. What if the agent decides to take an action to connect to a sensitive structured database and delete some of the customer sensitive information or grab them and combine them with other workloads. Then we are talking about amplified impacts of this. And that's why it's essential to not only document that lineage and track that, but also stop that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":57,"time":"19:54","seconds":1194,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"Proactively detect those actions that are not appropriate, detect them, or make sure that human is in the loop and no actions is taken automatically when the stake is high. These are the areas that we've been looking into and we've been trying to surface and educate the market about. These are the consequences that the stack might not be mature, it will get there. This is a stack that is evolving in the market rapidly around the agents.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":58,"time":"20:24","seconds":1224,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"And I think that's the part that the technology providers and the technology consumers hand in hand are trying to figure out what is that uncharted territory? What are the gaps and let's resolve them.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":59,"time":"20:37","seconds":1237,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Might be a dumb question for you, Maryam, but I'm curious to know from IBM's perspective, a lot of the things that you've talked about are sort of platform challenges and tooling challenges to enable developers.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":60,"time":"20:52","seconds":1252,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"And Galileo, for example, is essentially an evaluation observability platform. So a lot of the problems you're talking about, we think about it day in, day out. But IBM's also a very big company, and it has the ability to also enable developers to build great GenAI products which is kind of the layer above the platform. So I'm curious to know from your perspective is IBM's strategy to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":61,"time":"21:17","seconds":1277,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"just provide the tools to build any kind of application for developers or also provide products, GenAI products, to your users?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":62,"time":"21:26","seconds":1286,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"Yeah, very good question. At the end of the day, the goal is to solve customer problems. So for every single line, we sit together with them to identify what is the gap. Sometimes the gap is to use a product and out of the box use it. Sometimes the gap is you need a custom build approach,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":63,"time":"21:49","seconds":1309,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"build it. And not every single customer has the talent to actually make that custom. The majority of the customers at this point, they are interested in out of the box solutions that solves that. So as IBM also, we looked into our own platform. We said, hey. We have a platform that is providing Gen AI technologies, but we have a series of softwares that can benefit from that technology. So we have a category of","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":64,"time":"22:17","seconds":1337,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"softwares and products that are enriched with just generative AI technologies. One example is for example, Environmental Intelligence Suite. It's a product that you can use for your disaster management. Behind the scene, you can use foundation models. We have geospatial models we build with NASA to use them for the purpose of disaster management, right? Out of the box, you can use that. You don't really need to know what are the foundation models or what are the tools.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":65,"time":"22:46","seconds":1366,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"There is a second category of softwares that are powered up by GenAI. These are the new sets of products that now we can bring to the market. One example of that is Watson Xcode Assistant. So now behind the scene, there's a granite code powering up the whole product that the developer can use for the purpose of productivity. So within IBM, we are actually thinking about four different areas. One is the platform providing these technologies to the market. The second one is the products that are in can enrich the experience and benefit from generative AI. The third one is the new products that are powered up by GenAI.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":66,"time":"23:26","seconds":1406,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"And the fourth area is the services that we offer to sit together with the customer and figure out, hey, is one of these helping you or there is something else that we can pull in a custom solution to solve your problems.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":67,"time":"23:38","seconds":1418,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Thanks for explaining that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":68,"time":"23:39","seconds":1419,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"That makes a lot of sense.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":69,"time":"23:41","seconds":1421,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I'm curious to dig into the agentic side more. So you brought up that there's this scaling challenge happening with agents where getting to production, particularly in these highly regulated industries, can be challenging. And some of the ways that we've been tracking on this, and trying to understand the impact of agents, align very closely, I think, with your perspective. It's like,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":70,"time":"24:05","seconds":1445,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"did the LLM planner for this agent select the right tool and start on that right path? Did those tools work? Are they having errors? Are they actually advancing towards the ultimate goal with, does the trace reflect this action advancement? And then, of course, completion around, does the final action align with the agent's original instructions? And you brought up this challenge around","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":71,"time":"24:32","seconds":1472,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"that final completion metric. I'm saying like, look, we have to be really careful, particularly in these highly regulated industries, to go, we actually need to achieve this goal. We can't risk this action completion being incorrect. We have to ensure that these agents are doing not just the right job, but they're doing it well. How are you approaching that with your customers?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":72,"time":"24:55","seconds":1495,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"Yeah. There are four areas that we are looking into. The first one is the LLM itself. Agent is powered up by LLM. So all the concerns that we have with LLMs in terms of hallucination, lack of explainability, transparency, all of those are applicable here. Even the guardrails in terms of filtering happen, jailbreak, and they are all applicable to agents here. So that is coming to the picture. The second category is what I call agent guardrails.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":73,"time":"25:24","seconds":1524,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"So these are the guardrails that are specific to agents that you wanna develop. Like, for example, faithfulness, the action that was taken. But there are a series of metrics that are stemmed from the specific action calling and reasoning. Right? Those guardrails. So that's the second category that we wanna make sure that we have a solid story around. The third one is something that I call agent","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-73","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":74,"time":"25:47","seconds":1547,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"agent evaluation. So this agent evaluation is a superset of LLM evals that we had in the past plus all the consequences for tool calling that is coming to the picture. Accuracy, performance, now you're talking about external APIs, the data that you're getting back from that API, how are you gonna evaluate the quality of the respond that you got back. Right? Are you gonna have some sort of content filtering on those? Like, are how you gonna deal with those? So that's that's the third area that I'm looking into, agent eval. And last but not least is one area that Etienne mentioned, observability and governance","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-74","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":75,"time":"26:27","seconds":1587,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"throughout the whole life cycle. Build time all the way to run time and after that overtime, Like checking what's going on for the agents. These four areas are the areas that we need to deeply look into and see if it's a requirement for the customer. If it's the requirement, what level of maturity they need to have in order to go to production and what is this custom subset of the metrics that they need to track. If it's not provided by the existing one, how can we expand it or","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-75","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":76,"time":"27:00","seconds":1620,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"build share metrics in the market around those to address those?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-76","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":77,"time":"27:05","seconds":1625,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. Genetic evaluations is definitely an area where we're spending time researching and improving our products as well. Aten, I'm curious if you wanna speak to your perspective on it, because I think there's a ton of ground to cover here. As Miriam and you have both highlighted, there are misconceptions about agentic AI, where folks just think, oh, this is gonna solve my problem, and they don't think about the entire structure that has to go around this to consistently solve the right problem in the right way. May from Writer said to us a couple months ago, you know, this is not magic. We have to actually put guardrails in place. We have to build the right systems. So so, Atin, what's your perspective on this?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-77","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":78,"time":"27:42","seconds":1662,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Yeah, my perspective is slightly orthogonal potentially to what Miriam was saying, although I do agree with what she was saying, double clicking into essentially what an effective end to end agentic evaluation system comprises of. I kind of flip the words. People talk about agentic Evals. I see them as we need to build evaluation agents because every piece of evaluation can be essentially needs to be agentic by nature","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-78","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":79,"time":"28:13","seconds":1693,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"because they need to adapt to the different variables in your system once you productionize it, data being a key variable because data is always changing and there's no one size fits all metric or any kind of statistical measure that will give you a good sense of whether the entire agentic system or parts of it are doing well or not. What needs to happen is you need to curb the false positives very quickly","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-79","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":80,"time":"28:39","seconds":1719,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"and give the instructions to the agent, which is the evaluation agent, to not make those same mistakes so that the agent itself evolves with your product. So that's kind of my view in that you need to solve the problem end to end. One is you need to break it down into different components because each component needs to be evaluated in a different way. There's different measures for the health of your rag system which includes retrieval quality, ranking quality,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-80","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":81,"time":"29:06","seconds":1746,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"and then there's the output which can be measured by a different set of metrics. But each of those metrics can't be one and done. They need to be adapted through human feedback, which is where there's a massive human feedback component. But the challenge for a platform play here becomes how do you take that human feedback in a minimal and least intrusive manner","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-81","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":82,"time":"29:27","seconds":1767,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"and incorporate it into your ecosystem so that the agent doesn't make that same mistake ever again. So it's a lot of these things that need to come together to build a cohesive platform, and we at Galileo kind of see them as self evolving evaluation agents, which is kind of like a multilayered system, at the bottom of which are the fundamental metrics, the statistical measures that give you some sense of kind of the leading indicators of good or bad. But on top of that, there's this automation","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-82","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":83,"time":"29:56","seconds":1796,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"layer that you have to build which can be seen as agentic in itself, which adapts to the data and the different any variable to the system, whether it's the usage patterns which are evolving over time or the data that's changing over time, And how do you make those evaluation paradigms adapt to that?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-83","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":84,"time":"30:14","seconds":1814,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"And I'm glad you brought it up, Atin. I think it's two ways,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-84","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":85,"time":"30:19","seconds":1819,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"both of them, not this or that. So for example, agent evaluation, one area that we are using looking into is LLM as a judge to go and look into, let's say, if it's a chain of thought, break it down to different pieces, multiple notes in every note, evaluate, like, evaluate if that was a right action taken. And if it wasn't, automatically regenerate the prompt","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-85","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":86,"time":"30:49","seconds":1849,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"template that can cover that and fix it. It. So LLM behind the scene is part of the process in this case to do the agent evaluation. So I think it's a two way using agents for evaluations but also agent eval itself.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-86","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":87,"time":"31:06","seconds":1866,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"No, absolutely. I totally agree. And the other side of the coin is the scale and cost, which we talked about initially. And the same challenges apply to evaluation","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-87","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":88,"time":"31:18","seconds":1878,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"as well. To your point about using LMS Judge and Chain of Thought, they do give you great results, but behind the scenes, Chain of Thought is a very expensive process which has, not to get too technical, but multiple forward passes across the deep learning model, And those costs add up because they're running on very expensive hardware. So one of our challenges that we've been going down the journey of is how do you build effective","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-88","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":89,"time":"31:44","seconds":1904,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"but cheaper evaluations which need not necessarily use the most complex paradigms all the time. Chain of thought is great but one of our discoveries has been that in many circumstances from an eval's perspective, chain of thought might not be needed. And you can get high accuracy eval's without chain of thought. And we've published about it as well. That's the other side of the coin, which is how do you surface high accurate evaluations","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-89","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":90,"time":"32:13","seconds":1933,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"at cheaper price?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-90","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":91,"time":"32:14","seconds":1934,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"Exactly, looking at what is the use case, what is the best way to tackle that. Funny enough, last week we released the new Granite, Granite 3.2, Granite Reasoning. For that one, you can toggle thinking on and off. So if you don't need that chain of thought reasoning because it's very expensive, You turn it off. And for the use cases that you need to actually do that, you can turn it on. But I'm with you, it's a combination of models and evas, and at the end of the day, cost performance optimization.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-91","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":92,"time":"32:47","seconds":1967,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Love it. This has been a fantastic part of the discussion. I'd love to keep diving into agentic AI more broadly as it's obviously kind of the theme of 2025 thus far in AI. What are the misconceptions, Miriam, that you see different businesses having about how we should be approaching agentic AI?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-92","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":93,"time":"33:08","seconds":1988,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"Let me tell you a fun fact.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-93","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":94,"time":"33:11","seconds":1991,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"Those two master's degree that you mentioned, it was actually a multi agent systems twenty years ago. So I did agents and multi agent systems before deep learning. So when you talk to me and you I'm like, I'm looking into the definition of agents that has reasoning capabilities, I mean, those category of people that don't believe LLMs of today can do reasoning because they're not like in my mindset, that that's very different than","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-94","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":95,"time":"33:38","seconds":2018,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"the culture of agents that I grew up with. Right? And I think this is this is also a misconception in the market. Like, what's commonly known as agents in the market is basically LLM with function calling and tool calling, which is, don't get me wrong, it's great opportunity to bring GenAI to every single corner of enterprise because now you can connect them together. Right? But the promise of agents is really that autonomous reasoning","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-95","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":96,"time":"34:07","seconds":2047,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"and planning and making decisions and taking actions. I don't think we are there yet. We have some sort of preliminary planning in place, but I think that's that's the opportunity that over the next six to nine months I'm personally super excited about. I feel like once we get comfortable with our technology stack collectively in the market to a point that these models can actually make","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-96","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":97,"time":"34:32","seconds":2072,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"sound decisions, then that's the point that it unlocks a lot of use cases for all of us. And I think that's a misconception in the market that it does it today, but it's not really capable to do that today.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-97","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":98,"time":"34:46","seconds":2086,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"I have a follow-up question, Miriam, for you. This might be a little more general, but in the evolving tool stack that you see today and, you know, clear increase in capabilities of what we can do with LLMs.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-98","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":99,"time":"35:03","seconds":2103,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"What is that number one thing that you find maybe a gap in the tooling ecosystem or the platform or anything that can enable developers to build effective high quality agents? If there's a gap at all that you see and what is that top of mind?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-99","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":100,"time":"35:19","seconds":2119,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"Yeah, I would say that there are three areas that it's both gap and opportunity, right? It's the active areas that they care about. One, back to our optimization,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-100","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":101,"time":"35:31","seconds":2131,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"flexibility and choices. When you talk to developers, I talk to my developers. I surveyed and I said, how many tools are you using in average on a daily basis to create an AI applications? More than half of them, they said five to 15 tools. Five to 15 tools in a market that is evolving rapidly, new tools are coming up in the market fast. I said, how much time are you willing to dedicate to learn a new tool to figure out if it's the right tool to integrate your stack or not? They said not more than two hours.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-101","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":102,"time":"36:05","seconds":2165,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"So they are craving for easy to master and learn new technologies. Less than two hours, bring it in, integrate. This is a major need. Need for simplicity, need for abstraction, need for integration behind the scene to address the optionality that they need. And I think that's the area that we should all work on collectively. The second area is innovation. The crave for innovation.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-102","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":103,"time":"36:32","seconds":2192,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"That that word that, like, researchers develop something and then next year publish they publish a paper and then next year product picks up. It's all gone. Right? Now we are talking about research. What do you have today? What were you working on last night? Can I bring it into products? The speed of innovation, and that's the expectations from developers. Even though if they don't have the AI background,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-103","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":104,"time":"36:57","seconds":2217,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"they expect us to have this state of the art technology as it becomes available to the market for them in a way that they can consume. And that's a major gap. Like, it's it's not an easy thing because they need to go all over the stack. It's not just application layer. They need to go to model layer, GPU level, runtime level, optimize everything. And I think our role is to simplify that and tackle those two areas, three","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-104","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":105,"time":"37:24","seconds":2244,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"areas, simplification, simplicity, innovation, and optionality and choices.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-105","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":106,"time":"37:29","seconds":2249,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"I couldn't agree more. I think I've had the same observation where I think we've kind of reached the point where the excitement for a new model that comes out is starting to kind of saturate and dwindle over time. Right? It's like, Hey, there's a new model. Great. It probably does the same thing. And there's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-106","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":107,"time":"37:50","seconds":2270,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"step function improvements and some academic benchmarks, which the citizen developer or someone who just wants to build something awesome wouldn't really care about. And on the other side, there's tool fatigue and this proliferation of, Hey, here's another tool that can help you build something. But if that tool is not simple, to Maryam's point, I, as a developer, am trying to keep pace with the innovation and really trying to build something awesome and give me tools that can help me on the way and not serve as impediments.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-107","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":108,"time":"38:22","seconds":2302,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"So I see that as challenge as well.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-108","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":109,"time":"38:23","seconds":2303,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. This pacing challenge also","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-109","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":110,"time":"38:26","seconds":2306,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"speaks to something that Miriam brought up earlier in the conversation, talking about this survey of a thousand developers you did where, what was it, 23 ish percent said, Yeah, I feel proficient right now. The pace of this industry and of the tooling around the industry, everything you need to learn, it's moving so rapidly. There's always a new model coming out. There's always a new tool. It's got some new innovation,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-110","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":111,"time":"38:47","seconds":2327,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and it's making it really hard for folks to feel fully comfortable. I can see a world where this just continues to accelerate, and it becomes harder and harder to keep pace. So I'm curious how you both think developers and their technical leaders should be thinking about this challenge.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-111","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":112,"time":"39:05","seconds":2345,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"My suggestion is always to know your problem. What is the problem that you're trying to solve and establish a point of view from the market because then they are able to differentiate what is noise and what is the thing that is worth their time to spend on. They have to be very careful about their time. They have limited time to spend on different pieces of technology. And the best thing that they can do is understand their problem and have established a point of view to be able to evaluate what is noise, what is worth the time.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-112","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":113,"time":"39:39","seconds":2379,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"I was in a hackathon recently","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-113","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":114,"time":"39:42","seconds":2382,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"where I saw a demo of essentially taking a research paper, like the Transformers paper, for example, which was the demo. You upload it and you create a podcast out of the paper. And it blew my mind because like, just turning the time back to when I used to do hackathons very, very often, this kind of stuff was unthinkable to be built in ten hours. So the technology and the ingredients are there for us to build something amazing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-114","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":115,"time":"40:14","seconds":2414,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"The only impediments are really the cost, the platform, and just the simplicity of tooling that can enable me to accelerate and build something very real as opposed to just being impediments. And the noise is really one of the big challenges.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-115","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":116,"time":"40:28","seconds":2428,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"My last advice is take advantage of that. I was asking the developers how much AI assisted coding are you using? And basically","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-116","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":117,"time":"40:40","seconds":2440,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"a good portion of them, I don't remember the numbers now, maybe it was 49%. It was a sizable size. They said very often they use it. And in average, they said they are saving one to two hours per day out of that coding. And four persons of the developers that I talked to, they said they are saving more than four hours a day. Like if they really know how to use AI for that purpose.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-117","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":118,"time":"41:06","seconds":2466,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"And I'm like, this is massive, like get on that. Take advantage of AI for this sake of productivity of yourself.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-118","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":119,"time":"41:15","seconds":2475,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Miriam, this has been a really fantastic conversation. Honestly, I'm looking at our talk track here we kind of built in advance, I feel like we only got through half our questions because you and Aten are diving into, like, so many interesting threads here and having these great back and forths. I'm like, well, I can't I can't move us forward. They're having too great of a conversation here. But I want to close out with a couple of highlights","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-119","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":120,"time":"41:35","seconds":2495,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"that we didn't have a chance to chat about. So so one, do you have a good example of a success story you can share with the Watson Next platform? Because you've talked about some some really interesting examples here, some challenges with regulated industries, But I also know there's some big successes that have happened. So I'd love to know and maybe inspire our audience with what does success look like?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-120","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":121,"time":"41:55","seconds":2515,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"The point that I like to call out is,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-121","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":122,"time":"41:59","seconds":2519,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"and that's a misconception that Gen AI is applicable to every single enterprise use case, it's not. We need to understand what Gen AI is capable of addressing and what are of the use cases that it unlocks. And then when you look across enterprises, there are thousands of those examples that can come up. So for example, for generative AI, if you look into content grounded question and answering as the number one use case for generative AI, classification,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-122","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":123,"time":"42:28","seconds":2548,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"information extraction, code generation that we were just talking about, summarization, right? It's some of the applications. But perhaps the top one that I like to highlight is content grounded question and answering, and most specifically in customer care. Because now we can basically equip whoever that has been providing historically the answers to our customers","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-123","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":124,"time":"42:52","seconds":2572,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"with knowledge that is generated from a body of information that can be quickly verified. And that was the story of last year. That was RAC. Now with agents, we can say, hey, LLM. If you don't find the answer in that body of information, you you don't need to say, I don't know. Go to fire up a web search API and see what you can find and come back. And we always have human in the loop to verify that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-124","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":125,"time":"43:20","seconds":2600,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"So it's just amazing to think about the potential consequences to every single industry. This very simple example of AgenTic Rag or whatever you wanna call it. Right? And because of that, I think I'm super excited. It's not just one example use case for one specific industry. It's impacting every single one of us as consumer, as enterprise businesses. That's the beauty of GenAI. We just have to figure out how to really deliver on the potential of","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-125","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":126,"time":"43:54","seconds":2634,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"what they have promised to deliver with our stack and our capabilities,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-126","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":127,"time":"43:59","seconds":2639,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"empowering of developers to build those.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-127","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":128,"time":"44:01","seconds":2641,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Absolutely. And I think that's why conversations like this one are so important. So Atin, Miriam, thank you so much for joining me today. Miriam, where can folks learn more about your work or the work you're doing at IBM?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-128","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":129,"time":"44:10","seconds":2650,"speaker":"Maryam Ashoori","text":"What's the Next dot ai? That's my product.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-129","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":130,"time":"44:13","seconds":2653,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Perfect. That is an easy one to remember, and we will, of course, link it, along with everything else we discussed today in the show notes. Go check out the research we've talked about. If you've got that survey you mentioned, that you sent out to developers and and some of that's public, we'd love to share that as well. Wonderful. And if you're listening and you are checking out the show notes,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-130","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":131,"time":"44:30","seconds":2670,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"maybe just go ahead and leave us a review, hit that subscribe button on whatever platform you're listening. It really helps us bring more guests like Miriam on the show. If you're developing an AI product or leading a team, you can reach out to me or to Atin directly, at Conor Bronsdon at at andriosanyal. You can find us both on LinkedIn. We'd love having this conversation, so reach out if you'd like to be on the show or have a guest to suggest. Miriam, just thank you so much. This has been so fantastic. It was a ton of fun. Thank you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-131","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori","episode":17,"guid":"63603797-0f3e-4c02-a95c-1c8393ddff6e","episodeTitle":"Inside IBM's watsonx: Building Enterprise AI That Ships | Dr. Maryam Ashoori","publishedAt":"2025-04-02","segmentIndex":132,"time":"44:56","seconds":2696,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Thanks all.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/17-inside-ibms-watsonx-building-enterprise-ai-that-ships-dr-maryam-ashoori/#t-132","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"If the same information was available to every single person in that room, did we even require this meeting to make a decision? I truly believe that inside the enterprise, there is this big amount of silos that exist because of the data silo. Is the big reason also that we spend so much money today.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:24","seconds":24,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Welcome back to Chain of Thought, everyone. I am your host, Conor Bronsdon, and I'm here with my fellow cohost, Yash Sheth, COO and co founder of Galileo. Yash, always great to have you on the show with me. It's been too long.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":2,"time":"0:35","seconds":35,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Thanks, Conor. And, you know, we we have an esteemed guest today, Manoj Agarwal,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":3,"time":"0:40","seconds":40,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"who's, you know, co founder, president of DevRev. Prior to that, Manoj has been SVP of engineering and GM for hybrid cloud at Nutanix. And so, you know, really excited to have this chat, Manoj, and thank you for being here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":4,"time":"0:52","seconds":52,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"Thank you, Yash and Conor, for having me here. I'm looking forward to the conversation.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":5,"time":"0:56","seconds":56,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I've heard you talk a lot about this idea of information symmetry and your passion for it and how it's informing a lot of your decision making around","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":6,"time":"1:06","seconds":66,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"the approach to AI and what DevRev is thinking about. Can you elaborate on the concept of information symmetry and its importance in how DevRev is achieving business outcomes today?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":7,"time":"1:15","seconds":75,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"I would say that like if you just go and look at today","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":8,"time":"1:20","seconds":80,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"through the internet, the amount of information that exists, people have access to like within whatever is available to them freely. I mean, can just go and search for the information and can get that information at the tip of my finger fingertip and just like not distinguished between the two people. If you just think about me and Yash can have the same search,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":9,"time":"1:44","seconds":104,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"get the similar result and can go and act on. Now that has been made easier by the use of now RLMs. Like obviously OpenAI with the GPT that what we see that has started to happen where I can get the information in more succinct way that I can go and consume it. Now start to think about within the enterprise, within the company, within the businesses what happens.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":10,"time":"2:10","seconds":130,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"Most of the time for us to be able to make a decision, we require the different people to come in the meeting and they all bring some information with them. They have access to the different set of information that not necessarily everybody has the same set of information. And I like typically that I've what I've found and which when you have to make a decision,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":11,"time":"2:37","seconds":157,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"a lot of time this fight, people can call people can call it okay, people with the biggest title and loudest voice, they start to make decisions. I'm sure that you all have seen it somewhere or the other that happens. And for me it was like it was not about the title. It was not about that shouting game. It was mostly around the information that they carried","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":12,"time":"3:00","seconds":180,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"was very different compared to the other people. And because they have access to the different data, different tools, their different systems, they are into different meetings where they're also gathering this information. And the question was, if information symmetry was there, if the same information was available to every single person in that room, did we even require this meeting to make a decision?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":13,"time":"3:25","seconds":205,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Yeah. That was the crux of it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":14,"time":"3:27","seconds":207,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"I truly believe that inside the enterprise, there is this big like amount of silos that exist because of the data silo that exists. It's the big reason also that we spend so much money today.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":15,"time":"3:41","seconds":221,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"I'm also curious about like you know being in a large organization myself earlier right and having been in these meetings, like recency bias creeps up quite a bit as well apart from like the loudest voice.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":16,"time":"3:55","seconds":235,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"This happens to us in a startup as well, like, hey, like this customer is asking for feature x like let's go and build it but like actually going back and thinking about you know what let's look at all the feedback that we've received around this and holistically make that decision like I think that's huge.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":17,"time":"4:14","seconds":254,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"Yes, like you were just touching something on very important.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":18,"time":"4:18","seconds":258,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"Have you heard like a product manager running to you and saying that, okay last night I heard at beer bash this conversation and the customer said, this is one feature that I need. Yeah. And they come back and say, this is the highest priority in the company that everybody should work on it. Three months later, you deliver that feature and go and ask the same product manager what's happening, how many people are using it and so on. They actually have the list of new features from somebody else. They don't talk about the ones that you just delivered.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":19,"time":"4:50","seconds":290,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"Yeah. Because it was all the time. So amount of waste is just like this crazy. Yeah. Like hard to look at it and you can save a lot. I mean, if you just had the information symmetry, you start to collect this information in the right way. So how do you solve this, Manoj? This data, first of all, they exist in the organization, and we call it like the structured data, unstructured data and so on. And now when I say structured data, think of like, okay, if I'm in customer support, I'm using Salesforce Service Cloud, or I'm using Gendesk,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":20,"time":"5:20","seconds":320,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"or I'm using some other systems to keep this data, organize this data. If I'm in software development, I'm probably putting that in Jira or Atlassian or GitHub or some other places that I'm going and putting that data. The one is basically these are restructured data. Now the conversation that I'm having, all this collaboration that I'm having, for that there is a completely different system. Like today people, especially","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":21,"time":"5:43","seconds":343,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"you start to look at this, Slack is very popular. I mean, go and look at like the, even if you are coming from the software development side, when put some information and they jump back to the Slack. As soon as I say, can you go and look at this particular Jira ticket ID? Okay. And that's when the collaboration happens, right? Yep. Yep. And can you imagine two days later, comes","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":22,"time":"6:07","seconds":367,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"and asks, okay, how did you really make that decision? You can potentially still find the person who can come and answer that. Three months later somebody new joins comes and they want to find this information out. Like how do they find it? First of all, like the person who actually has done the work also, they have no idea. They probably will not remember anything.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":23,"time":"6:30","seconds":390,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"A search also is such a big problem today on Slack that you can try to find that information. So the question is, all this information that we are talking about it and there are so many silos already getting created. How do we bring it together? How do you connect it to the right thing? Which is like where we call it for the existence of the company, there are only two things that matters.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":24,"time":"6:53","seconds":413,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"It's the product or services that you provide and the customers you serve. So how do you really organize your data around those two things?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":25,"time":"7:00","seconds":420,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"To that point, this is a daily thing on our team as well where there's discussions on Slack and they pertain to a ticket and then an engineer is like always saying that hey let's go back and put this on the ticket and we've even built a plug in in Slack to like take this chat and then throw it in the relevant ticket because it's very important. It's extremely important too. In Slack itself, any collaboration platform, whether it's Slack or even offline in meetings and on conference calls,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":26,"time":"7:31","seconds":451,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"things are scattered extremely and you tend to lose that. And there have been times where I've gone back and said like hey we built this product feature why did we do it this way? Like you know why did we do it this way and not that? And there's no context like it's so hard to find even that information on why did we make that decision. This is a slack channels that you're aware of.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":27,"time":"7:55","seconds":475,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"There are other ones that you're not aware of the same conversation happening. Crazy yeah. I think coming back to the point of like you know Conor's point of like how do we solve for this niche like organizationally what do we need to do and you know there with AI of obviously we there's a step forward where we can distill all of these into something more structured but you know how are","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":28,"time":"8:19","seconds":499,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"you guys at DevRev approaching this?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":29,"time":"8:21","seconds":501,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"Yeah so we actually addressed this I think beautifully and I'll say when you look at the data outside on the internet through the LLMs now that we are able to go and do so much, right? And even the cost when you start to think about like in eighteen months it has gone down like what? For a million tokens dollars 50 down to what? 12¢ or something?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":30,"time":"8:48","seconds":528,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"Now, for much more advanced models also, more than 99% reduction in the cost. Now with that, we are able to, I mean, at least consumers, they can just go and use it. Don't even worry about the cost. The question is, how do you do that in the context of the data that is there in the enterprise? Could you really bring that data together? Is something that first thing that we are tagged on. You said, okay, people have these tools, systems,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":31,"time":"9:18","seconds":558,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"conversational systems also. How do you bring this data together? How do you really build a knowledge graph? And the knowledge graph, when we say it, it's not just any knowledge graph where you just dump the information and magically it will go and figure it out. Could you really build a business centric knowledge that understands your product, how you sell your product in the market, how you organize your product.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":32,"time":"9:44","seconds":584,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"And then it also understands customers. So once you organize your data, and this is where that a lot of help from the AI also comes in, with the LLMs, part of LLMs that comes in, that it can understand the context and go connect it with the right areas. Once you brought that data together, now you can talk about the conversational AI on top of it, just like chat GPT.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":33,"time":"10:08","seconds":608,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"Can start to talk about that quick. Even the automation, when you talk about it with the agentic AI, you can start to now imagine the kind of things that you can come and do.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":34,"time":"10:17","seconds":617,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Without AI, I can imagine an engineer going and understanding all my data and you know the concepts, the product concepts, the teams, the customers and then creating a custom schema for the knowledge graph.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":35,"time":"10:33","seconds":633,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"But you know now you can have a personalized schema for the knowledge graph from the AI itself and then add a conversation layer on top of that so that retrieval becomes more personalized as well, right?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":36,"time":"10:47","seconds":647,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"Yes, Yash, one thing that I want to point out, there is one basically just you just bring the data together, which is like a one way I can consume that data, I can maybe even flatten that data, put it in a database,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":37,"time":"11:00","seconds":660,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"go and link it and so on. The other part that you have to think about is, it's not just one way, which like what the data warehousing solutions always did with the ETL, on which that you can build all kind of report, analytics, dashboards that you can go and create. Now, conversationally also you can search and get this information out. We are talking about like when you have to take action on this data,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":38,"time":"11:24","seconds":684,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"when you have to also go and create new set of information, whether it's okay in the context of customer support that things that I'm not able to, let's say, deflect L1 support. Customers coming and asking a question with their knowledge, I will be able to deflect now, but there are things that I will not be able to do. I have to go and get into the database itself or my primary system,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":39,"time":"11:49","seconds":709,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"gather that information out, bring that information out in real time, process it, converse with the customer, with the conversational AI interface, and then customer will say, okay, maybe let's say I want to order something, X, Are you able to also go and update, like take that order, being able to go and update the primary system, right? So now we are talking about the, you can start to see that amount of things that are happening is all through conversational AI interface and that requires two way sync","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":40,"time":"12:24","seconds":744,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"with the primary system. It has to understand, I mean, what exactly is the order? What does order even mean, this system? So what we have built is not our patented airdrop technology and the in fact knowledge graph is also patented technology that we have, which does So two way thing with those","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":41,"time":"12:45","seconds":765,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"it is kind of a mini agentic interaction like you know it's taking your request serving that the right information and then making the right change back into the system.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":42,"time":"12:58","seconds":778,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"How do you see that growing? So I think of this as almost like this is an AI platform you're building on top of the data and you're talking about like three things so far connecting the data, personalizing the schemas, adding the conversational layer on top and now making it agentic. Where do you see this growing?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":43,"time":"13:18","seconds":798,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"Just think about like when we are sitting in the meeting room,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":44,"time":"13:23","seconds":803,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"people obviously they have different set of information but they also have skills, things that they do and those are skills. Can you start to imagine those skills now that you can program? This is the way certain things are done, every single skills and doesn't have to be one skill. I have 20 skills and I can go and write those skills in plain English, right?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":45,"time":"13:49","seconds":829,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"So if you can start to think about, okay, every person or kind of profile that there are skill set, you can program in the system. Now on top of that, now think about the entire meeting that is happening. Every time there is a question, people are bringing different skills and that's what is the agentic AI to us. So if I could go and stitch this skill set along with the data","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":46,"time":"14:16","seconds":856,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"and between the different skills to do end to end work, then I think that I have solved it and that's the state that we are looking at. Yeah. And the good news is that this is possible. No. Yeah, early stage of that actually I like your chain of thought, just the name itself, platform also that must provide you as you are going and experimenting with these things is there's a chain of thought. We'll give you these","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":47,"time":"14:47","seconds":887,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"are all the skills that we are bringing together for the questions that you have asked just now. If you approve it, I will go and run that chain of thought and then give you the information in a way that you can consume it through the conversational AI.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":48,"time":"15:01","seconds":901,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"You know at Galileo we're constantly thinking of you know when developers are building agentic workflows like the one we're talking about,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":49,"time":"15:13","seconds":913,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"in order to make sure that these workflows are performing more reliably there is a developer and a subject matter expert building that feature And now if we can distill that subject matter experts knowledge into metrics that this is how the end to end agent should be behaving and here are the three things I would check manually but do that at scale for a 100 different agents","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":50,"time":"15:38","seconds":938,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"that's a very similar analogy of like how you're thinking about transforming skills into actions and for us is like automating evaluation.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":51,"time":"15:47","seconds":947,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"Makes sense. I mean at the end of the day what are we trying to automate? Most of the mundane things that you do. And those mundane ness now with the reasoning that the system is able to do, I mean and you stitch together","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":52,"time":"16:04","seconds":964,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"this mundaneness like every single person do is like more complex task they will do now through the GDPR.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":53,"time":"16:10","seconds":970,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I'd","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":54,"time":"16:11","seconds":971,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"use a really basic example I saw recently. You know, Text to SQL has been definitely a use case for LLMs where it's like, oh, I'm talking to Claude or ChatDPT, and I need to query this database. You know, here's what I need. Help me write the great SQL command. I don't wanna spend any time doing it. Awesome. Let's go do that. And now we're shifting to this agentic world where we can use agentic querying through function calling,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":55,"time":"16:35","seconds":995,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and it uses the the structured queries of the predefined function calls of JSON. You can just put your natural language processing in and get the information you need without having to do this, you know, in between filter steps. And that's just like one example of something a lot of people may do where they have to query a database at some point. And there are so many potential areas where this can just speed up to to your part, but I was where it's like, hey, I just gave you the natural language. I get the output I need. And then somewhere along the line, we have human feedback that comes in about the the outputs","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":56,"time":"17:07","seconds":1027,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"so that we can have continuous learning based off that human feedback, and then based off of elements judge opportunities. And to me, that really speaks to the opportunity here where we can create agents that continuously learn to better solve our problems for us. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":57,"time":"17:23","seconds":1043,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"Absolutely. I mean,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":58,"time":"17:26","seconds":1046,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"when you spoke about also Yash, the a question that is asked and when it is asked to Manoj, let's say it is asked to Yash, like how will Manoj respond versus how will Yash respond and so on. Now start to think about it, like when we sit in the triage meeting, a lot of managers, they sit in the triage meeting, okay, What should be the priority of this? Should this be P0? Should this be P1, P2, P3? Like, what do they look at? Well, let's just look at, stare at the data. Okay, so I see it's coming from this customer,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":59,"time":"17:59","seconds":1079,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"this high paying customer, say tier one. I look at the health of the customer, maybe it's like red or orange or whatever health score that you look at it. Strategic customers, maybe, even though they're not paying any money right now that I want to go and win this account or the conversation that is happening. So typically based on this structured information, unstructured information,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":60,"time":"18:22","seconds":1102,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"they're making certain decisions. Now can you imagine that what Yash with such a high level when he looks at it, he'll make the decision this way. Could I go and program that? That'll be nice. Now there are like the 200 people who are doing the triage on their own or maybe sitting in this room and like just multiplied by 200 and machine is doing it at scale.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":61,"time":"18:48","seconds":1128,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Yeah. That reminds me of an actual use case we worked with one of our customers is like you get thousands of tickets every day on things that are not working from many customers. How can we bake in human intelligence for those expert engineers triaging the tickets? And this is a very small example, but it's very much in vain of we discuss at a high level. And these tickets can be auto triaged and also like next","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":62,"time":"19:21","seconds":1161,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"steps, automated steps can be carried out by the LLMs and we've seen this and productionized this already with customers. So this is baby steps, but now if you generalize that to like every function in the organization and have experts be able to program their intelligence that's amazing. I think that's doable this year right like in you know it's something that we","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":63,"time":"19:47","seconds":1187,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"see coming now rather than like five years later.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":64,"time":"19:50","seconds":1190,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"It's happening now we all see it. I'm sure that Kooner you hear this from every single guest who comes here. We are experiencing it right now. It's a very interesting time I must Yes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":65,"time":"20:02","seconds":1202,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"And now if you think one step beyond Manoj right like now what's next after that when there are many agents doing many tasks in the enterprise and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":66,"time":"20:15","seconds":1215,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"you know let's say from this particular use case of programming skills for from people and making them operationalizable in the platform. Every enterprise also has a lot of different systems and let's say now let's skip three years, I'm not even saying five years because things are moving so quickly, but three years from now, you know all of these systems will have their own agents.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":67,"time":"20:40","seconds":1240,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Your service cloud agent will have to talk to you know your HR agent and then you have your engineering ticket system whether it's Jira or something else has its own agent. Now these agents will be exposing certain tasks and activities and actions that they can take. And let's say now this is like you know let's say DevRev is kind of the central hub where people can just get work done right.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":68,"time":"21:10","seconds":1270,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"How do you see the like DevRev agents communicating with all the other agents and this is actually relevant now because we there's some level of standardization efforts going on in this space. But I'm curious about like how do you see that vision pan out?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":69,"time":"21:25","seconds":1285,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"I mean first of all we absolutely expect like on the siloed systems that also there are going to be agents that people write that does one thing","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":70,"time":"21:37","seconds":1297,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"really well. May not have any other context about the other areas. The way that the system actually in the end has to play out is when you think about the agents, these are really the skills we are talking about. And if you could go and bring those skills and can execute it in near real time. Now the real question is just going to be when do you have really a lot of latency that you have to go and figure it out in real time that can you go and execute, get all that data, process all of that data together,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":71,"time":"22:12","seconds":1332,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"pass it onto the next system, next system, next system, right? So anywhere that you have to go and do joins between the different systems to make head and tail out of it is where that you start to see or we learn quite a bit. Now today, the approach that we have taken is build agent on top of DevRev. Yeah. Bring the data sources connected as something that we'll, we provide the connectors. We call it Airdrop with Airdrop technologies,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":72,"time":"22:43","seconds":1363,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"structured data on structured data, and then start to build your agents here. But I mean the architecture has stood in my opinion also expanded to that okay it can go and talk to other agents also.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":73,"time":"22:55","seconds":1375,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"One thing we've been seeing in this space across many different companies is like everyone's building their agents in silos and as you said like there's like actual infrastructure components missing between multi agent communicating systems and that's one of the reasons why like you know Galileo along with some of the other folks in this space have created a collective","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-73","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":74,"time":"23:20","seconds":1400,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"to have standardization. What is like an agent protocol where every agent can talk to each other. Apart from that there's like what is DNS for agents? Like how does an agent discover other agents? In DevRev you can like, you have full control. So you can say like, hey I have my head of finance as an agent and I can tap onto his or her skills. You can pretty much","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-74","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":75,"time":"23:47","seconds":1427,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"create a structure within the product but when it's talking to other systems how can I detect like in my organization I have and what's my the people ops system that I want to or HR system that I want to tap into? There are certain components and there's also state passing and authentication extension. So these are smaller things that are being worked on now but as this collective","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-75","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":76,"time":"24:15","seconds":1455,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"we are creating like a way for everyone to come in and extend it. Like it's not just open source with a closed decision maker, it's like everyone contributing to the standard. So we're seeing that there's a huge amount of interest in doing that and as part of you know the multi agentic future I mean I would say like to your point about everyone is in silos and like building their own agents","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-76","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":77,"time":"24:42","seconds":1482,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"in each doing one good thing. The true ROI between, multiple systems will come when, like, agents can seamlessly talk to each other.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-77","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":78,"time":"24:50","seconds":1490,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"I 100% agree with that statement.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-78","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":79,"time":"24:54","seconds":1494,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I'm curious what other challenges you foresee as we build this multi agentic future. Obviously, inter agent communication, protocols like, you know, model context protocol can help with tool selection, these type of things, but what other challenges should we be preparing for?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-79","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":80,"time":"25:11","seconds":1511,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"Very first thing that I feel inside the enterprise, the data and data silos. Also just the cleanness of that data, that in itself will take a little while. At least I think this is the first step. What we are experiencing right now, the initial euphoria that every single company thought that they can just go and build something, a chatbot. That was the very easy answer. Even there the companies found very, very quickly","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-80","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":81,"time":"25:44","seconds":1544,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"that, you know what, for the same question three times I'm asking, I'm getting different answer. Yeah. And either way, I don't know which answer was correct. I need to go and ask the subject matter expert now. Like Rag is not same. Built by one company versus second company versus third company. What does the context itself means? Like how good are your embedding models?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-81","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":82,"time":"26:07","seconds":1567,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"So some of these things that we are corner like right now, just going through. For us, because we started in 2020 and we, at the time that we were looking at commercially available vector database and something that can scale for very small company to very, very large company, nothing existed. So we had to build our own and we went through like just the three iterations of the rag itself. Now back then nobody was calling it rag.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-82","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":83,"time":"26:35","seconds":1595,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"Now we are calling it rag, so it's easy for people to understand. But yeah, I mean the challenge is a very very normal, very very early days right now. Initial thing was just going and doing the semantically search something that is context aware. And then the second thing was that okay is this thing especially for the enterprise from the data governance perspective, the permission perspective, RBAC and all that,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-83","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":84,"time":"27:03","seconds":1623,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"does it like really follow that? Then the third thing is that every time that you're doing it, especially in the context of the organization, there is law of the land that there are regulations that you have to go and follow. Is there an audit trail that you're going and keeping on what AI is doing and not doing? How it is retrieving that information? What exactly is the information that it's providing? So there are many areas right now, Conor,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-84","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":85,"time":"27:31","seconds":1651,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"in my opinion that we all need to work. The big picture that we all know that the conversational AI is here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-85","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":86,"time":"27:37","seconds":1657,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"We resonate a lot with that point at Galileo because our focus is always to help build trust in these systems. And so the very first point you made about like non determinism in the system, like that's what got us motivated to even start the company because even at Google we're trying to launch","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-86","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":87,"time":"27:58","seconds":1678,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"early versions of Gemini and it's incredibly hard. If Google gave you a different answer every time, would you trust Google to be your search engine? No, right. You know, it comes to the search engine for the enterprise, DevRev has the same issues. How are you and your teams thinking of instilling that trust in the end user? Because let's say if I ask the agent Manoj for","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-87","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":88,"time":"28:26","seconds":1706,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"hybrid cloud data, how do I know whether it's like whether I can rely on it?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-88","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":89,"time":"28:32","seconds":1712,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"It's a great question by the way. For the internal people, you can always this chain of thought that you want to provide, the linkage, where you're getting this information from because and that's the way that you also Learn, I mean that then you start to commit. This is the way that it should be you trust.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-89","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":90,"time":"28:59","seconds":1739,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"You actually teach the machine. This is the way that I think. In fact you are right. This is your chain of thought makes sense to me. Let's commit. Or when you disagree that you can ask it to go and construct it differently. When it is in a customer facing world where customers are interacting, you don't have that luxury. They're not the ones who are going to come and train. Only thing that you can do is maybe just getting the, I mean, obviously reinforcement learning, I mean, whether you got the answer or not, and then there is system internally that is continuously checking","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-90","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":91,"time":"29:32","seconds":1772,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"that actually what information that we gave to the customer, that was the right one or not, especially for the more complex one. Knowledge base and all those are the early days, but I mean, when you start to get into the really, really complex thing, you start to look at the reasoning stuff and so on I as mean, you'll have to build a lot more trust.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-91","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":92,"time":"29:51","seconds":1791,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I'm curious how you're thinking about how other business leaders should be taking action. What advice would you give to other leaders that you talk to as they think through implementing AI in their organizations and trying to solve these information challenges that are coming up throughout?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-92","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":93,"time":"30:11","seconds":1811,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"That's a great question, Conor. Like when I talk to the business leader, don't go just after the AI. Obviously, you'll have to think about what's happening in the world, but it has to be the use case, the pain point that I have. Recognize those pain points in the context of, let's say, support, customer success, when you start to look at it. Okay, today my cost for","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-93","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":94,"time":"30:37","seconds":1837,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"every single call that is coming from the customer, there's certain amount of cost that I have. My business is growing. I expect to have more cost over time and I somehow have to reduce the cost. Now that is a great business problem, pain point that should we now look at something from the AI? Can I really go and solve for that? Now, can I really go and even","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-94","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":95,"time":"31:03","seconds":1863,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"take it to the next level, which is the information that what L1 used to provide, which was just based on the information, could I extend that to L2 also? So if 30% deflection suddenly start to look like 60% deflection, so that will be the extension. Okay, I was able to start, I was able to get the 30% cost reduction right away, but now I can get to the 60% level.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-95","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":96,"time":"31:30","seconds":1890,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"So there are ways, I mean, that's where that you go and start to insert. You can't go and say that, okay, I'm just going to go and change everything. So that's one that we advise. Second, would say, Conor, is quite related. Companies, they'll have to look at their own workforce. If they are AI enabled themselves, will they embrace this or not? Because to me,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-96","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":97,"time":"31:58","seconds":1918,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"a human with AI is certainly going to displace human without AI, and it's not like something this had been taught as part of the learning coming out of the college or in the organization today. So the question is that okay, are we also going and training inside the organization? People, like the same people, will you hire them today or not with AI? So I mean, there's a huge amount of responsibility and work that is ahead of us in every single enterprise to,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-97","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":98,"time":"32:30","seconds":1950,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"train our people in the the use of AI.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-98","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":99,"time":"32:34","seconds":1954,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I I think we're honestly underrating how much effort there is there. Obviously, we're already seeing people who are effectively leveraging AI systems, whether it's agents or simply great, you know, prompts they're creating, are outperforming many other people within the workforce. But the systemic challenge of how do I get my whole organization engaged in a way that is positive","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-99","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":100,"time":"32:57","seconds":1977,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and has reciprocal benefits that stack upon one each other can be really challenging. An example of success with this I would give would be an app like Cursor, where as, if you can get on enterprise license and you have all your engineers using Cursor or Copilot, the self reinforcement of that learning about the code base, about how your engineers are coding, can not only speed up an individual engineer's code delivery, but also will improve the tool's ability to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-100","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":101,"time":"33:22","seconds":2002,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"actually write great code for your code base and align to your needs. And I think we're gonna see a lot more of that happening, at least particularly in the technical area. But I think we're maybe not doing enough of that for some other less technical organizations. I obviously, there are a lot of firms spinning up for marketers of, oh, we'll solve your content problem, do x y z, but the training across the board has felt ad hoc so far. And okay, great customer success, brought up earlier is, we're starting to solve that like first question problem, or like we got a lot of the early queries, or can be solved by an agent, but how are we enabling our CS folks across the board to leverage AI? And there are certainly organizations that are doing it well, but it seems like there's a gap here right now.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-101","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":102,"time":"34:10","seconds":2050,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"Have you heard, Conor, like, inside the organization that from machine, they want perfect answer always. But from human, we are okay to get different answer.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-102","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":103,"time":"34:23","seconds":2063,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"Yes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-103","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":104,"time":"34:24","seconds":2064,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"Right? It happens all the time. Like, you go and teach people the same content. You ask a question after that, you get different answers. And we are working with that. And with machine,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-104","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":105,"time":"34:37","seconds":2077,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"particularly, we expect that it has to do the perfect job.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-105","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":106,"time":"34:39","seconds":2079,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Satya talked about this in a podcast I listened to recently about this trust challenge where, you know, we have a built in sense of trust with human beings, whereas we have this higher expectation of our co pilots, of our agents. It's less of a like, hey, can we get agents in at scale? We're figuring the tech out, like that is coming,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-106","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":107,"time":"34:58","seconds":2098,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"but there is a trust challenge that we have to achieve. And to me that speaks to the need for evaluation, for observability, for security, for all the things that, organizations like LA are working on. It's definitely an exciting time, but there's a lot of work to be done.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-107","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":108,"time":"35:12","seconds":2112,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"I'll add just one quick point there, right? Like I think just going one level deeper into that issue, we face the same problem on our teams where like AI driven features, like some folks on the team will adopt it very quickly. The others will be skeptical and I think the paradigm of conversation is very different when you type something in a text box versus there are","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-108","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":109,"time":"35:38","seconds":2138,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"physical cues to know that okay this person may be not sure so like you know I may say hey I think it's supposed to be done this way so does that mean I'm sure or not right but every answer that we get from a machine it seems like it knows it all right and when it does it so when if I say every single sentence confidently this is what you do this is what you do and maybe even 10% of the time it's wrong you'll start doubting whether I'm the right expert","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-109","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":110,"time":"36:08","seconds":2168,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"for it. But if I can tell you something that hey look I think it's like that is in that direction but I'm being fair and confident I'm being fair in conveying my level of confidence That is missing in machines.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-110","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":111,"time":"36:22","seconds":2182,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"Absolutely. I mean obviously that's why we doubt it. Remember that there are there's always this 1x developer versus 10x developer that in the industry we talk about. The question is,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-111","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":112,"time":"36:37","seconds":2197,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"the machine can make this 1x developer to maybe 6x, 7x developer. We'll at least deploy the AI there first before we start to talk about, okay 10x will become, don't know what. We always want it to be 10x. Now on 10x are the people they are doubting the most, saying that, sorry, it's not able to do the way that I do it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-112","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":113,"time":"36:58","seconds":2218,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Manoj, I wanna drill in on that vision you're talking about,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-113","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":114,"time":"37:02","seconds":2222,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"of the relationship between humans and AI and the data you're getting from customers and from other sources. Let's say we solve that flow of information and we enable both humans and machines. We have solved information symmetry. How should companies look? What is that vision of the future for you?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-114","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":115,"time":"37:22","seconds":2242,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"At the end of the day,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-115","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":116,"time":"37:25","seconds":2245,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"any technology that you build is supposed to go and help human, period. In that process, businesses are also that they need to have the top line growth and bottom line growth, both. That has to happen. That will happen through this. But if you just focus on the first point itself, amount of time today that is spent on just getting the right data, the number of people that you have to go and talk to today.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-116","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":117,"time":"37:56","seconds":2276,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"I mean, just think about like the software development, how percentage of time that people are spending in writing the code versus just trying to go and gather the information, the log files and talking to the people, what exactly has happened there to find the root cause before that just going and changing that line of code, even changing the line of code that I need to find out all the changes that has happened in the system around that time. Can you imagine that work can be done by the machine","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-117","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":118,"time":"38:25","seconds":2305,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"easily? Machine doesn't get tired. Can do that work for you. So at least the way that I visualize this, the data, the fact that the machine can now bring it together, can make a head and tail out of it, can understand the customer, can understand the law, can understand the code, can understand wherever these things has happened, distill that, bring out the information,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-118","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":119,"time":"38:51","seconds":2331,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"give it to the human. This is the way that I think probably where the problem could be","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-119","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":120,"time":"38:57","seconds":2337,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"with higher certainty, one, number one, number two, number three, and so on.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-120","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":121,"time":"39:00","seconds":2340,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"We got a lot of work to do, but I'm very excited to see everything that DevRev is putting out. For folks who are listening, what's the best place they can go to to find out more about DevRev?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-121","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":122,"time":"39:10","seconds":2350,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"Obviously devrev.ai is a great place to start. We do have our applications that is available. It's a SaaS offering. You can just still sign in. There's no cost, no question asked at least. You can try it out yourself. We are available. I mean you can schedule a demo. We have DevRev or it's like U for university. We do a lot of teaching, learning community that has been built through that to talk about this topic also and even start to talk about this conversation around the product and customers and team intelligence","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-122","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":123,"time":"39:47","seconds":2387,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"and all of good stuff commerce.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-123","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":124,"time":"39:50","seconds":2390,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Fantastic. Well, Manish, thank you so much for joining Yash and I today. This has been a really wonderful conversation. It's been a ton of fun. Likewise.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-124","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":125,"time":"39:57","seconds":2397,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"This was awesome.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-125","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":126,"time":"39:58","seconds":2398,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"You know, learning from you about, you know, where the future of information is going. It's it's pretty exciting. Looking forward to building.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-126","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":127,"time":"40:09","seconds":2409,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Definitely.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-127","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":128,"time":"40:09","seconds":2409,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And you can always tune in to more Chain of Thought episodes or watch them on our YouTube to dive into a lot more about the future of information and what we are all building. So make sure that you have subscribed to Galileo's YouTube channel for more content, including webinars about how to do agentic evaluations, what the future of multi agent systems look like, and much more. Check out our events, deep dives, and of course, every episode of this podcast will be there as well, and you can watch us interact with our lovely guests. Manoj, thank you again for joining us. It's been fantastic.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-128","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":129,"time":"40:40","seconds":2440,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Really enjoyed the conversation.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-129","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal","episode":16,"guid":"3446ebcd-e828-4a87-8235-ea4359bd3d57","episodeTitle":"Information Symmetry: DevRev's Bet on AI-Driven Enterprise Decisions | Manoj Agarwal","publishedAt":"2025-03-26","segmentIndex":130,"time":"40:41","seconds":2441,"speaker":"Manoj Agarwal","text":"Thanks for having me.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/16-information-symmetry-devrevs-bet-on-ai-driven-enterprise-decisions-manoj-agarwal/#t-130","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"AI can again be a very good augmentation tool, but it's not going to replace your team or double the size of your team as well. There are going to be efficiency gains if used correctly, but you have to be able to level set an expectations like what are we actually going to get out of this? Because we're never going to make our our team obsolete. We just we can't.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:26","seconds":26,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Welcome back to Chain of Thought, everyone. I am your host, Conor Bronsdon. And today, I'm delighted to be joined by my friend and special guest, Kelly Vaughn, director of engineering at Spot AI. Kelly, welcome to your Chain of Thought debut. It's great to have you here. Thanks so much for having me, and I'm excited to be chatting with you again. Yeah. This certainly isn't the first time we've been on a podcast together. I'm I'm not even sure how many times at this point, maybe half a dozen. I've kind of lost count. Yep. Yep. But you are one of the people I really respect the most in the engineering leadership community,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":2,"time":"0:56","seconds":56,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and your experience gives you unique insight from leading engineering and product at one of the fastest growing video AI companies, Spot AI, over the last three years to to writing the modern leader newsletter, your entrepreneurial ventures, your degree in psychology, the insights that brings you in, and and much more. But today, we're kicking off with a controversial,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:17","seconds":77,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"maybe big question.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":4,"time":"1:19","seconds":79,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"Is agentic AI a bubble? And I'd love your take on that. I love opening a podcast episode with a spicy take. Have to. This is this is a good time. Yes. AgenTic AI is a bubble. We need to unpack that. But long story short, I do believe that we are official we are currently aboard the hype train that is Agentic AI for x or whatever. You mean we don't need 30 different AI agents just to do our meeting recordings?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":5,"time":"1:51","seconds":111,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"Do you? Okay. Like, joining a meeting with, like, let's say there's 12 people in there, and then you see so and so say a notetaker, so and so say a notetaker. And there's they're all different too. Like, how many AI notetakers seem to exist? There has to be a better way. And you know what's you know what's going to happen is somebody's gonna be like, yes, this is really annoying. So let me build the AI notetaker for all AI notetakers.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":6,"time":"2:14","seconds":134,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"And then we have yet another AI notetaker in there. This is what happens. It's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":7,"time":"2:18","seconds":138,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"it's very true. And and I'll I'll say I did see a fantastic LinkedIn breakdown. I can't remember the name of the person who did it. Of, like, 18 of these different notetakers. There's 18? I can't swing that up. I think that's how many they have. Yeah. And there's probably more they didn't even include there. But, I mean, it it does seem like they're we're in this competitive stage of 90%","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":8,"time":"2:39","seconds":159,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"of these AI agent startups may have challenges in two years as certain ones emerge as the best use cases. Because there certainly are great use cases for AI agents. Yeah. But there's also a lot of folks right now who maybe are fundraising off of calling a chatbot an agent.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":9,"time":"2:56","seconds":176,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"Oh, I mean, but we also talked about a chatbot being AI. Like, before AI agents was AI. Before AI, it was blockchain. Like, this is this is nothing new. This is how the fundraising cycle works. This is how the venture the venture capital cycle works. I mean, look at Y Combinator always puts out a list of the startup themes they're most excited about. And what always happens every single time this list is published is you see an influx of new startups trying to tackle these issues. And there's nothing wrong with that. Like to be clear, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. We've identified","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":10,"time":"3:30","seconds":210,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"certain pain points and these pain points evolve over time as society evolves over time and as technology evolves over time. What ends up happening is you see a lot of noise in the market such as 18 plus different AI agents or meeting recorders and transcribers or whatever. And then there's just you don't even know where to begin. And what ends up happening is you see a lot of startups start to fail.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":11,"time":"3:52","seconds":232,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"Yeah. Because they have no differentiator. We often focus on being first to market as being the best. And that is simply not the case. First to market might give you a leg up at the outset, but you have to follow through with that. And that's what ends up actually missing out on a lot of these opportunities.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":12,"time":"4:11","seconds":251,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I think you're spot on that part of this is the ecosystem many of us are playing in from the startup space, where VCs are incentivized to fund companies that have giant visions that can be huge wins because they expect most of the companies they fund to fail. And this incentive then bleeds back into founders as to what they want to start because, hey, if I'm gonna get the funds to have my big exit,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":13,"time":"4:37","seconds":277,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"this I need this big challenge to take on. And there is another approach to this, and I think it's gonna be interesting to see how this goes as a lot of companies they're bootstrap, obviously. I know you've you've done that yourself. There are different incentives in play there where I'm curious to see if bootstrapped agentic companies or agents are going to have a lot of success versus some of these grander visions as we have a million different","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":14,"time":"5:07","seconds":307,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"agentic frameworks, everyone's creating their own. I'll say mea culpa, here are we. We've built our own. We have our own simple agent framework we've built for demoing. We have one we're using particularly for eval demos. We're helping contribute to one to create agent interoperability with Cisco and LangChain. And I'm excited about those. But I also think there is a need for realism to your point where","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":15,"time":"5:32","seconds":332,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"there are many of these AI agents that are not going to be successful. We are going to have systems of them that work. We're going to have companies that succeed really well off this. But these are not a panacea, and they will not solve all of your company's problems. So they may help you get some cash in the short term. Yeah. And and when we think about","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":16,"time":"5:52","seconds":352,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"the purpose behind why, like, why we're starting a company, I have bootstrapped a startup. I have also gone the venture route for another startup. So I've seen both sides of this and your mentality tends to shift, you know, knowingly or unknowingly when you as soon as you raise money because you're thinking about how much money you can make from this startup. Like this is going to be profitable. This is going to be this is going to give me my big exit. And there's nothing wrong with being money motivated.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":17,"time":"6:20","seconds":380,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"Like to to be clear, there's nothing wrong with that. What happens though is if you're more focused on how much money I'm gonna make from this then how passionate I am about the problem that I'm actually solving, you'll lose sight of that bigger picture. And that's when you start to build for the sake of like what is making the most noise. And then you're going to lose the plot of what is actually your key differentiator.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":18,"time":"6:44","seconds":404,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. And I think that's a crucial thing to consider, which is, are you actually helping your customer? Are you actually driving value for them? And it's really easy to get lost in, oh, I need to build for the hype. To be clear, we're not discouraging folks who are listening to build AI agents. I think that's a fantastic trend to dive into and explore. But I think we also have to be realistic. And and that's where I I love that we're kind of starting off at this semi controversial take maybe for an AI podcast. Yeah. Because","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":19,"time":"7:14","seconds":434,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"there are a lot of builders out there who are going to expect to succeed. And it's important that when you are starting something, when you're trying something, you understand that most of these startups are experiments that end up failing, and it often takes multiple tries. The success is not the norm from the start, and it's really easy to get lost in the perception of that success, hearing from incredible leaders on this show and others who are succeeding or who have kind of made it past the first couple of rounds. But most startups die. Yeah. There's a lot of survivorship bias. You know?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":20,"time":"7:52","seconds":472,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"We glorify those who have had a successful exit or a successful company. They're still running today, we expect that we can do the same thing. But, you know, as he said, like most startups fail. You learn so much from starting a company though. And if this is an area that is of interest to you like understanding agentic AI understanding AI in general and in ideating on what could be possible in this space.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":21,"time":"8:15","seconds":495,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"This is this is what is fun about building a company. It's the I don't know if this is going to work or not. I'm going to have, you know, a belief in what I'm building and I think it could become something. But if it doesn't become something, I don't wanna be like, you know, it was the, you know, the journey that was all that, you know, what we gained in the end. Yay. This is so fun and sunshine and roses and whatever. But I still think that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":22,"time":"8:38","seconds":518,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"what you learn from running a company, you can then take and apply to your next attempt at a startup or joining another company. When we think about this world of AI agents we're in right now, it's not just new companies that are sprouting up building, you know, building AI agents or, you know, building what I mentioned earlier, like the meta AI agent company. It's existing companies that are","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":23,"time":"9:03","seconds":543,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"incorporating AI agents into their everyday workflows because they see the value in agentic AI and they can see a way to improve their customer's life of using this product and create more stickiness by introducing this concept. And that is like, that is also an acceptable way and shocking. I'm going to bring Porsche into this conversation here. Porsche, we know as building very, very solid vehicles.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":24,"time":"9:28","seconds":568,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"They're not an EV company. I own Porsche EV, but they know how to build a solid vehicle and they knew how to take the solid vehicle and then adapt it to the EV market. Then you compare it to a startup startup air quotes there, like Tesla or Lucid or Polestar. Like they're only building EVs. They're coming at it the other way. This is the exact same thing we're seeing with agentic AI, you know, at a very different scale, obviously, where you can start your own agentic AI company focused entirely around generic AI","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":25,"time":"10:00","seconds":600,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"agents. Or you can apply what is the hype cycle right now to your existing company to keep yourself competitive in the market because you already have customer buying. You already have that trust. You already have the product stickiness. Let's just make it even better.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":26,"time":"10:15","seconds":615,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. And I don't think either approach is is wrong by any means. It's just it's important to come in with open eyes not expect everything to succeed off the bat. Know, May Habib came on our our first episode of the show, and I always think about her quote, is that AI isn't magic despite, I'm paraphrasing, AI isn't magic despite what people want it to be. You know, it's really easy to see these incredible things that are being done with LLMs, are being done with different AI workflows, with agents, and just be like, Oh, we're solving this. This is just going to solve my problem. But the reality of it is it still takes infrastructure work. It still takes observability,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":27,"time":"10:53","seconds":653,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"enablement. There's plenty of administrative overhead to this. And the same is true of jumping in and taking on these challenges. And I know that you've brought up before that there are these key differences between building AI enabled products, whether that's agents or otherwise, versus traditional software products that you've seen in your last several years building AI products.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":28,"time":"11:16","seconds":676,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"What differences should folks who are listening and thinking about building an agent, thinking about building something else in AI, what should they be keeping in mind? The first thing you really need to question yourself is like, what exactly are we solving here? What is the problem that are we're solving for our customers? And is AI going to help me solve this problem? There are plenty of companies out there that do not need to leverage AI to solve problems.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":29,"time":"11:40","seconds":700,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"Does your local plumber need AI? I don't really know. You know, there actually could be some some interesting use cases that I really wanna They really be need the AI notetaker. You could you could somehow build some kind of product to allow you to like see what is happening in the pipes and then report back the issue. So, know, what needs to be done. Like there are specific ways that you can do this, but when you're building a software product versus you're building an AI enabled product, the basis of this product is going to be different.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":30,"time":"12:12","seconds":732,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"And the most important thing to remember is AI enabled products, you have to move at a fast velocity. You have to move at that fast pace because models are continuously changing over time. They're getting better over time. They're getting smarter. They're, you know, getting cheaper over time as well. And so you're going to have to keep on iterating on an AI enabled product where I'm not saying you don't need to iterate on a software product, but a a more traditional software product is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":31,"time":"12:42","seconds":762,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"is a little bit more deterministic. And it's a little bit more velocity proof is the way the wrong way to say this. Like, you don't have to iterate so quickly to stay relevant. And and that is one of the biggest differences I would say between those two things. I think their other piece that is really important is around user trust. There's still a lot of inherent distrust in AI.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":32,"time":"13:02","seconds":782,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"I work at a video AI company. Like I understand, two, three years ago, we were barely talking about AI, you know, in everyday use. You know, there was a time when my mother-in-law was not using chat GPT. And now, you know, she knows how to use it for pretty much anything in her life. Just like any kind of technology, this is gonna change over time. And you're going to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":33,"time":"13:27","seconds":807,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"need to find a way to continue to build that user trust. It's a little bit easier to establish that user trust in a non AI product just because there's still a lack of trust in AI. What are you doing with my data? Are you retraining your model on my data? Who has access to my data? Even if you're not retraining it, who at your company has access to this data as well? All of these are questions that customers are going to be asking.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":34,"time":"13:50","seconds":830,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"There's the base knowledge of, is this a deterministic piece of software or not? And with AI, it's nondeterministic. It can take different decision points depending on the situation, which is exciting and provides us huge opportunity, but also adds a level of complexity and creates, know, like similar to what a human may misremember or lie or whatever else, like given that we know AI can do the same thing and make up a source","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":35,"time":"14:20","seconds":860,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"or, you know, make something up and fool itself, there is so much confidence, by the way. With with a lot of confidence. It is it is an excellent liar. I will give it that. And I think this is where I come back to this idea of the administration, the management of AI is really crucial. It's something we have not fully figured out yet, though there are companies like Galileo and others that are working on it, just like we haven't fully figured out how to manage humans day to day. Like, okay, great. We're a lot better than we used to be, but, like, this is that nondeterminism","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":36,"time":"14:50","seconds":890,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"piece. Like, it's a lot easier to have a continuous flow that does the same thing over time, and often that's all we need. But for more complicated tasks, we need this ability to to reason, to think things through, to actually create things we wouldn't have expected it to. Mhmm. And with that comes a lot of administrative challenges.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":37,"time":"15:11","seconds":911,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"A lot of administrative challenges and a lot of, like, high cost. You know? These it it's time and materials. It's not even like, it comes at it's the opportunity cost as well. That that is there too. You know? What benefits am I actually gaining by going down this path? Is is this again, is this actually solving a customer's problem? Or is this a fun little gimmick that we're having fun playing with right now and then we're going to move on and we're not actually gonna see customer adoption for one reason or another. It sounds like you've seen some common pitfalls","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":38,"time":"15:42","seconds":942,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"from shipping and building AI products the last few Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":39,"time":"15:46","seconds":946,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"I mean, biggest one, over promising AI capabilities. I think we all have very lofty dreams of what AI can do and I can see it in conversations I have now. Let's say take a year ago when I was having conversations with customers, they were asking if our AI models could do certain things that they can do today, but they couldn't do a year ago. Like as soon as you can grasp onto the concept of what is capable, what is possible leveraging AI, especially like I'm in video AI.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":40,"time":"16:15","seconds":975,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"So, you know, think about like what you what can you see? What events can you see? What steps can you see? I mean, a video is basically another set of human eyes that's always on. But you end up in this cycle where you're kind of over promising what AI is capable of doing. And again, AI is getting a lot smarter over time, but it still has limitations. You're never going to see 100% accuracy as well. And when you over promise an AI capability that ends up affecting the livelihoods","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":41,"time":"16:43","seconds":1003,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"of people, then you're going to get into this like very important kind of gray area there. If people are making security and safety decisions based on what you're seeing or what the video is seeing or whatever your AI model is doing, you know, especially once you make it agentic, you know, while now it's doing its reasoning on its own and it's choosing whether or not to take action. If you're using","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":42,"time":"17:06","seconds":1026,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"AI to detect a break in and you want to alert the authorities as soon as this potential break in is detected and you're missing the break in. Your AI model is not picking up that is actually happening. You just missed a very important event. And that's a hard thing to like, that's an easy way to lose trust with a customer. Totally. Especially when you're dealing with that that security or safety kind situation. I would say the other one that I see a lot of is a lack of a feedback loop. As we kind of talked about here,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":43,"time":"17:39","seconds":1059,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"given that models are constantly evolving, customers need to be able to provide feedback really quickly. And teams need to be able to apply that feedback very quickly. Like to, you know, retrain their models or to improve over time. And if you don't have a solid feedback loop, you're going to fall behind.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":44,"time":"17:57","seconds":1077,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I wanna drill down on these ethical implications, the governance piece you're talking about. How do you think builders should be thinking through these challenges early on as they're ideating versus later once they're in production.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":45,"time":"18:14","seconds":1094,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"Talk to users upfront. Like, market research is so incredibly important before you build into this. You know, you have an idea of what a product might do or what how you might leverage AI to solve a particular use case. Talk to potential customers who have this particular problem. And don't just ask like, will this actually solve your problem or not? Dig into the concerns they have about it. And you can tee it up. Like, are you concerned about","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":46,"time":"18:42","seconds":1122,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"where AI is learning from? Are you concerned about where the data is stored? And, you know, the more you ask these questions, especially in that frame, it's, you know, there's gonna be some bias that comes into it because now you're kind of setting it up to be a negative environment. So I'm just kind of spitballing here so you can frame it in a way that's, you know, you remove the bias out of the question. But these are the kinds of things you need to be asking upfront from a governance standpoint,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":47,"time":"19:05","seconds":1145,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"You know, who are, what kind of customers are you serving as well? If you're serving consumers who are, they tend to be on the earlier stage of the innovation curve, and they want to be an early adopter, their data privacy, their security, kind of stuff is going to probably rank a little bit lower for them. Versus if you wanna serve a school or a government or a large enterprise or even a mid sized company, they're gonna have much more stringent data privacy and security","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":48,"time":"19:35","seconds":1175,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"requirements to even get a seat at the table to talk about the product. And you need to decide we're talking about the administrative work involved. That's a huge administrative task there. So you need to decide, is this something like, is this the type of customer you want to serve? And it's okay to also say at some point we do want to, but not right now. Let's start with this subset of customers. I mean, you also don't wanna boil the ocean as well and try to serve literally everybody all at once cause then you're serving nobody.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":49,"time":"20:02","seconds":1202,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"So that's kind of, you know, what I'm how I think about data governance governance from an AI standpoint, you know, around the transparency, the data privacy, and then the bias mitigation as well. What about the other end of this, which is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":50,"time":"20:17","seconds":1217,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"constructing your team for these tasks? So great. I figured out my niche that I wanna go into. How should my company be constructing the team to build this AI product? Is it different than traditional software development?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":51,"time":"20:31","seconds":1231,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"I would say it is. I mean, you're I I it's so funny when I see job listings for we need a senior software engineer who is a full stack engineer who is also an expert at AI.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":52,"time":"20:43","seconds":1243,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":53,"time":"20:44","seconds":1244,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"Congratulations if you can find a unicorn. They exist. But usually it's going to be one side or the other. They're very passionate about AI and they do some coding on the side. Like some, you know, full stack front end, back end coding or whatever. Or you have a full stack engineer with a deep interest in AI. And you're going to need to really think about building a team that's not just of hobbyists. You need a little bit of, you need domain expertise on both sides. So finding a data scientist, if that's necessary for what you're building, on ML engineer, AI engineer,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":54,"time":"21:15","seconds":1275,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"and then have the full stack engineers as a separate role as well, who can take in this data and build the user experience of whatever customers are actually going to be interacting with. I'd say the other thing that they need to be thinking about is how are you actually approaching testing? AI requires iterative testing in real world situations. You cannot just build a lab and hope that what you see on,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":55,"time":"21:40","seconds":1300,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"you know, in in your small lab environment is going to be what customers interact with. And so again, building that customer relationship upfront, getting your team comfortable with interacting directly with like, research teams or even with customers themselves. The closer your engineering team can sit to the customer, especially when building such a high touch product, such as an AI product,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":56,"time":"22:02","seconds":1322,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"the more in tune your engineers are going to be with building the product that actually serves the customer's needs.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":57,"time":"22:08","seconds":1328,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"How are you thinking about setting up AI enabled tooling that will increase productivity for your engineering or product teams?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":58,"time":"22:17","seconds":1337,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"I am a big fan of having my team actually adopt AI tooling in their everyday. Like if they wanna use like a Cursor or something like that in their everyday, there's tooling that we can use to help automate some of the PR review work that we can do. I am 100% for it. Where I train my team on using this type of tooling is it should never become a crutch. Like you should be able to survive without it. And you need to understand where you can still continue to be","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":59,"time":"22:53","seconds":1373,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"kind of, you know, questioning what you're actually seeing. We already know that AI can lie very confidently. Same way is that it can write code that is not actually that great technically might work sometimes. We also, we know plenty of times it doesn't work. But like understanding, is this something that I actually want to use in production? I'm a big fan of leveraging AI wherever possible to build prototypes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":60,"time":"23:18","seconds":1398,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"But the important thing is there's a big difference between building a prototype, a minimum viable product and a minimum shippable product. And you need to make sure that what you're like, the code you're writing, which I assume you're actually writing code and not just leveraging AI generated code for the entire thing beyond the prototype, is actually up production quality from like a security and scalability standard.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":61,"time":"23:40","seconds":1420,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. As someone who only really builds my own projects for fun right now, my vibe coding with Cursor is much more acceptable, where I just get, yes, you're right, Cursor, let's go through this, and then debug. Then if I was working on a product that was it maybe affects people's livelihoods or lives. Yep. I think the guardrails and the approach around that is really important,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":62,"time":"24:03","seconds":1443,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"both at the the product level on, hey. What are my AI girls? And also at the team level of, hey. How what are the standards I'm putting in place for my team? And this is something you write about quite a bit with your newsletter, the modern leader, which folks I definitely recommend checking out. How do you think the role of the modern leader has changed in this age of AI? How do we have to enable teams differently?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":63,"time":"24:25","seconds":1465,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"We need to be very familiar with AI's capabilities and limitations so we can make more informed decisions. You know, we need to understand the landscape of the company we're at and what level of risk we're willing to take and where we can find an opportunity for leveraging AI as an augmentation tool as opposed to a replacement of human teams. I'm looking at all the companies that are replacing their customer service agents with entirely AI,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":64,"time":"24:58","seconds":1498,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"and I'm going to watch them walk back on that one. Communication and change management also become really important now at the leadership level Because you need to be able to help your team adapt to AI. You need to be able to help your company adapt to leveraging AI. And you also need to help your customers understand how your company is leveraging AI to build their product. If you are, I do a lot of our security reviews for the company. And this this question is coming up more again and again, and we are an AI company. So they're of course asking,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":65,"time":"25:32","seconds":1532,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"are you leveraging AI for your company? I'm like, it's literally yes, but you have to be a little bit more specific. Like where are we leveraging AI beyond the actual end product? How are we leveraging AI to build the product as well? And being able to have a very","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":66,"time":"25:47","seconds":1547,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"firm answer and how you approach security for that is a really, really important thing. Are there common questions or concerns that you're hearing from other leaders about AI's impact on their roles and their teams? Is it focused around security? Is it something else?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":67,"time":"26:03","seconds":1563,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"I'm hearing I'm hearing a lot of security questions, of course. Like, is this safe to use in the first place? And then, you know, it comes back to those governance questions. Like, you should absolutely be asking those questions before just full sending any sort of AI tool into adoption for your team. You need to understand, you know, where's data is coming from, how it's leveraging that data and who has access to that data. I'm seeing a lot of questions around like, well, if we leverage AI, we can basically like double our efficiency.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":68,"time":"26:32","seconds":1592,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"Right? Have you ever had four cooks in the kitchen? Does it actually quadruple your productivity? It does not. And AI can again, be a very good augmentation tool, but it's not going to replace your team or double the size of your team as well. There are going to be efficiency gains if used correctly, but you have to be able to level set an expectations like, what are we actually going to get out of this? Because we're never going to make our our team obsolete.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":69,"time":"27:01","seconds":1621,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"We just we can't.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":70,"time":"27:02","seconds":1622,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. I think it shifts where tasks are happening. Where to your point, like, hey, great. We can get to an MVP way faster. We can have, you know, our PRDs can include a draft of the product really fast. And I think that's great and really improves parts of the process, but that then means we maybe have to spend more time on debugging, or maybe have to spend more time","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":71,"time":"27:23","seconds":1643,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"on cycling with customers to make sure the feedback cycle is actually working. And I think for as someone who's like building individual apps, oh, great. Like, yes, AI is two x ing, three x ing my productivity, But I know that most of these things can't really make it beyond my own personal use cases. They're not shipping to production often without quite a bit more work. Mhmm. So there there is a lot to be done still to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":72,"time":"27:45","seconds":1665,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"enable the peak of the productivity gains. Like, I I totally believe that, like, yes, 20% productivity, something like that from AI coding enablement. Like, yes, I I think that is very valid that we're seeing that. But the the folks who are claiming, hey, we're seeing 300%, 400%. A, I'd just love to know how they're constructing their team and how they're adjusting around that. And b, I I would question whether they're factoring in other things that they have to spend more time on. And I know a lot of this episode has been kind of, like,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":73,"time":"28:14","seconds":1694,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"deflating the bubble a little bit. And to be clear, like, think we're both very excited about the opportunity here, but it's really easy for us to get lost in the hype here. And even on this show where we we say, oh, we're trying to make sure we look at this with a real lens, and we're trying not to get overhyped about this. I know we've gotten overhyped about this at times. We're getting the excited agents. It's an exciting thing,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-73","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":74,"time":"28:36","seconds":1716,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"but we have to adapt to this new world, and part of that is understanding what's possible and what's not. Based off of that, I'm curious if you've personally adapted your own leadership style or approach due to the integration of AI and AI tooling. I had a","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-74","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":75,"time":"28:56","seconds":1736,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"much more negative take on, especially like AI development tools, like Cursor, you know, at the outset. Because I used them early on, and I also saw that they were very inaccurate. And so I was immediately like, you're writing your own code. Like this is this is not acceptable. And then I remembered, hopefully it's okay to tell this story. My husband growing up at one point, they didn't have internet and they weren't going to get internet because they're like, well, we have this Encyclopedia Britannica. So I mean, you can get everything you need from that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-75","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":76,"time":"29:30","seconds":1770,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"You're gonna have to adapt your own practices over time as well. And and this is no different for me as well. And so like it has been an adjustment for my leadership style to say, okay, I see the value in this and my team has also helped me help show me that value. But I still keep a healthy dose of skepticism with it. Where I can see something. If I like, look at one of your poll requests and I'm not spending a lot of time reviewing poll requests these days, of course. But like, if I see one of your poll requests and I see like everything is so perfectly commented in your code, I'm like, you didn't write this. Like,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-76","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":77,"time":"30:02","seconds":1802,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"tell me what you did to actually confirm that this actually works and that this is the best way to be building this. I've also had to adjust on the rapid prototyping side of things. There's a lot of value as we said, like there's a lot of value to be able to rapidly prototype and get that iterative feedback. And with that, you then need to determine where your line is for acceptability.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-77","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":78,"time":"30:22","seconds":1822,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"You might be able to get something out to customers a lot faster at the expense of writing tests. With this is nothing new. This has nothing to do with AI. But given that AI has allowed us to move at a lot, like a lot more rapid pace. This is one of those things that also then kind of falls by the wayside as well. And I always had to kind of come back to that question of like, what is that line we're willing to accept? What I do on my team is not gonna be the same as another team because they're gonna have a different level of like acceptance. A comp a team that is more focused on greenfield work can have a higher risk level because it's not baked into like their customers are not like super baked in at that point. They can say this is a beta product and it's gonna have issues and you're gonna help us discover this issues, but we're gonna be able to release things a lot faster. Whereas the product I support,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-78","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":79,"time":"31:09","seconds":1869,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"you know, companies are running their entire security and safety programs on top of. I don't have the luxury of skipping out on a lot of the important stability practices Totally. That you might get at an early stage, startup or on an earlier greenfield team.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-79","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":80,"time":"31:26","seconds":1886,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It it really brings back this idea of, like, your context is everything. Are you building for yourself? Are you building for an important production use case? Are you building on top of a product that already existed, or is it purely new? All these things are important questions to consider here. And it sounds like you see a lot of both challenges and opportunities for engineering leadership in this new AI enabled age. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, it's hard to keep up with all the AI advancements.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-80","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":81,"time":"31:54","seconds":1914,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"I am very far behind, I guarantee. And as we use more AI and even in our product, not to build the product, but at the end for the customer. There's also a lot of AI related fears that I have to manage for myself as well. As well as like, I need to make sure that we're continuing to leverage AI ethically. This is something that's important to me, but it's also something that needs to be important to the company. And it's something that you need to kind of train others to think about as well. But, you know, I'm more on the opportunity side, like this can enhance productivity. This can allow us to ship a lot faster. This can allow us to automate","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-81","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":82,"time":"32:31","seconds":1951,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"a lot of repetitive tasks as well. Like again, kinda going back to the beginning, agentic AI is not a bad thing. It might be in the hype cycle right now, but there are plenty of reasons why you can strategically leverage AI agents to solve very specific customer or team related problems without overdoing it or just absolutely saying like, I am not getting on this hype train.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-82","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":83,"time":"32:54","seconds":1974,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. It's not a magic bullet, but it it is a really exciting piece of tech that has a lot of opportunities for us. And Kelly, I really appreciate the nuanced approach you've brought to this conversation, because I think it's sometimes rare as we all get caught up in this excitement and hype for us to have deep conversations about where AI is flawed and where maybe the hype is over boiling.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-83","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":84,"time":"33:19","seconds":1999,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And it's important for us all to understand that while this tech is really exciting, we have to consider how we're leveraging it and how we're enabling our teams with it. And I'd love to allow our listeners to have the opportunity to follow more of your work around that, because I know you're writing about this all the time, you're talking about this all the time. Where can they go to follow your work and read more of your thoughts on these topics?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-84","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":85,"time":"33:45","seconds":2025,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"Yeah. The best place is my newsletter, The Modern Leader. It's modernleader. Is. And also, I post quite a bit on on LinkedIn as well. So you can find me at first name, last name, Kelly Vaughn.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-85","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":86,"time":"33:57","seconds":2037,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Fantastic. We will definitely include links in the show notes. Kelly, it's been a pleasure chatting with you as always. Be sure listeners go follow Kelly and her wonderful newsletter, The Modern Leader. And if you're checking out the show notes, just go ahead and hit that subscribe button while you're there. If you're not already subscribed, like, but you're enjoying the show, like, are you doing? I mean, yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Smash that subscribe button, leave a five star review, you know, all the good things. Say nice things about this podcast. Thank you. Yeah. I appreciate that, Kelly. I appreciate that immensely. This is how you know she's a pro.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-86","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":87,"time":"34:26","seconds":2066,"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","text":"I'm I'm I'm wrapping up a a season of recording for our podcast. And so there's been a lot of closing us out as well for Is Ladybug gonna come out with a new season? It's coming out with a new season on on engineering management.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-87","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn","episode":15,"guid":"11771907-3491-4a8e-b630-e16063536170","episodeTitle":"The Agent Bubble Debate | Spot AI's Kelly Vaughn","publishedAt":"2025-03-19","segmentIndex":88,"time":"34:41","seconds":2081,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Okay. Well, if you are looking for more content on engineering management, the Ladybug Podcast is fantastic. Highly recommend. Super excited to hear there's a new season coming out. And if there's someone you would like to see on our show, reach out to me directly. I would love to hear from you on LinkedIn at Conor Bronsdon. That's it for this week. Kelly, you're welcome anytime. Thanks again for coming. It was a ton of fun. Thank you so much. We'll have you back soon. Thanks, everyone, for listening. Appreciate you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/15-the-agent-bubble-debate-spot-ais-kelly-vaughn/#t-88","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"Even if you believe that the output of an LLM is not perfect, I have bad news for everybody. Your output's not perfect either. And so let's not hold the technology to standards that we ourselves, our flawed human selves, can't even meet.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:22","seconds":22,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"We are back on Chain of Thought. I am your host, Conor Bronsdon, and back today with me is my cohost, Atin Driosanyal, CTO and co founder at Galileo. Atin, great to jump back in with you once again. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":2,"time":"0:34","seconds":34,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Great to be here again.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":3,"time":"0:35","seconds":35,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And we are delighted to be joined by Rachelle Palmer, director of product management at MongoDB and running a forward deployed AI engineering team, which is a weird sounding role, but is really cool, and we're gonna talk all about that. Rachelle, welcome to the show.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":4,"time":"0:51","seconds":51,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"Thank you. I'm excited to be here and chat about AI.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":5,"time":"0:56","seconds":56,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It's gonna be a lot of fun. Thanks so much for joining us. Rachelle, you lead a team focused on a fascinating challenge, using AI to modernize legacy applications, making life easier for developers who are wrestling with decades old code bases. And when we were chatting before the episode, I got the sense that you work your team that the work your team performs is almost like a public service. It's it's so beneficial for teams.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":6,"time":"1:18","seconds":78,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Let's start there. What sort of challenges are you facing and overcoming with your team?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":7,"time":"1:22","seconds":82,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"It really depends on the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":8,"time":"1:26","seconds":86,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"on the organization that we are doing these. We call them incubators. We're doing these incubators in. You might be looking at an account team, organizational team, because sometimes they call them project teams. Sometimes they have special interest teams that maybe had a domain specific language that they built their application in twenty years ago, and now they have nobody who knows the app. You might be looking at a team that's sort of looking to move from old front end to a new front end. You might have them using an old Java framework, and they wanna move to a newer Java","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":9,"time":"2:00","seconds":120,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"framework like Quarkus, or they've only used Spring because they wanna use Spring AI, but they committed to Hibernate two decades ago. So it really depends. It depends on the tech stack. It depends on the the organization. I we find actually that there's a lot of the time they have outsourced the care and feeding, if you will, of their code base to external contractors, so they don't actually have knowledge anymore or maintain their code base anymore. Then they're sort of captive to paying millions of dollars for the maintenance of their own applications. And they wanna get away from it, but they don't know how.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":10,"time":"2:39","seconds":159,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"And so, that's where we kind of start at when we, conduct this in incubator.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":11,"time":"2:47","seconds":167,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Anton, I see you nodding along. It sounds like this is a pain you felt before.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":12,"time":"2:52","seconds":172,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Oh, absolutely. If I turn time back to some of the earlier days at Uber when I was there, we moved the entire code base from Python, which was the prototypical language that we had chosen to build the earlier versions of Uber all the way to Golang, and eventually it became the largest Go shop in the world. And for obvious reasons, it was just a lot tighter on the wire, and it was just","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":13,"time":"3:16","seconds":196,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"way faster, and it reduced tech debt. And this is a problem we've all faced in every organization, in every team to the challenge of tech debt and also keeping, you know, up to times with modern languages. And, like, this is an era of Rust and Go. For legit reasons, like they run really tight on the wire. They're optimized better for CPU than say, erstwhile,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":14,"time":"3:41","seconds":221,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"you know, frameworks around Java, which have over the years as systems have scaled, has shown major issues like tail latency problems. And they they are only you can only improve a language linearly, but you can get exponential benefits if you can move, from one language to a more modern one quickly. And combined with the fact that LLMs have proven their worth","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":15,"time":"4:05","seconds":245,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"quite a bit on the coding side of things. It's one of the areas where it has truly shown its value. So it's a very exciting application, Rachelle, that you're sort of dealing with because personally, it's one of my favorites because it allows your engineering tech stack to cope with the times without the investment of, you know, your best engineers and your best teams for over a year to build something, you know, in a cave and then do a prototype to the CEO. They're like, alright. We're gonna move the entire ship to this new ship.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":16,"time":"4:36","seconds":276,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"So personally, it's one of my favorite applications.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":17,"time":"4:38","seconds":278,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"Yeah. I think it's really exciting. And to be clear, like, the example I'm about to give, it's not one of our incubators. But a few years ago, you know, Coinbase moved from Ruby to Golang, and I remember watching that from afar and just chewing my nails, being like, Flynn, Flynn, do not lose all my Bitcoin and my Ripple and my Ethereum","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":18,"time":"5:01","seconds":301,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"in your move to Golang. And I think, you know, watching that happen, it's really easy to stand here and sort of retrospectively be like, why would you ever choose that technology? But you have to remember that what's you know, you choose a technology when you're first getting started. You don't know if your application is going to have five users or 5,000,000,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":19,"time":"5:22","seconds":322,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"and so you're just trying to get something out the door. Maybe at the time, we made the best choice at the time, but then as technology evolves, it's no longer the right fit for you, but there's so much work to do to move from from your from a front end, from the middleware, what I call a middleware layer, which is like your frameworks, your ORMs, your whatever,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":20,"time":"5:44","seconds":344,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"and then also your database layer, in addition to all of the things that access your APIs, your business intelligence and data warehouse layer. It's actually such a huge amount of effort, and not many of us have the time or the talent, the number of engineers you would have to have to make that successful. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":21,"time":"6:03","seconds":363,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Absolutely. You know, I think this is one of the most underrated problems","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":22,"time":"6:08","seconds":368,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"for any company because the zero to 10 of a company and the 10 to 100, they're very different companies. And the technical choices that you make to go from zero to 10 are very different from 10 to 100. Most companies get stuck in this chasm of how do we move brick by brick from the zero to 10 set of decisions that we made to the new world where we need to scale our application or scale our business. And a lot of business opportunity","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":23,"time":"6:36","seconds":396,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"is lost in this JASM. So LLMs can bridge the gap pretty well. So I'm very optimistic and very excited about, you know, the initiatives you're taking, Rachelle.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":24,"time":"6:45","seconds":405,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"For sure. And I think, you know, I actually you know, last week, was in London for a series of meetings, and we were talking about this. And someone said to me sort of off the cuff, like, wow. You sound like you're really drinking the Kool Aid. And I was like, I'm more than drinking a Kool Aid. I am a Kool Aid mermaid right now because I can see,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":25,"time":"7:03","seconds":423,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"you know, they're not perfect, but certainly the capabilities of an LLM in the hands of senior engineers is nothing short of awe inspiring. And I feel like a lot of us, when we look at what's possible, we're seeing sort of this zero to one, right, like you said, which is like generate a MERN app. And that's great, but that's actually not what most senior engineers need","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":26,"time":"7:27","seconds":447,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"and not what most organizations even need. And so, like, I just think it's really exciting what their capabilities are when you have a an experienced engineering team and you allow them to use LLMs,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":27,"time":"7:40","seconds":460,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"actually.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":28,"time":"7:40","seconds":460,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It's really clear, I think, to anyone who's been in engineering for a while, particularly if you've built engineering teams in multiple places, that this is a major challenge, this modernization. You both have highlighted varieties of that challenge, different constraints we work under. But now we have this huge opportunity with LLMs to accelerate this process.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":29,"time":"8:01","seconds":481,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Rachelle, I'd love to understand more about how you're leveraging AI in the modernization process.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":30,"time":"8:07","seconds":487,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"I think it's best with some examples of the kind of things that we have done. For instance, if you have a really old code base that is massive, so I'm talking about a million lines of code, one of the problems that you're probably going to face is that you don't have good documentation on said code base. And when you try to onboard new engineers, nobody knows where anything is. Like no one knows where the vertical slices of functionality in that code base are. Okay, that's a thing that can be solved by LLMs and analysis.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":31,"time":"8:39","seconds":519,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"Another example is your code's not commented, right? You can just have LLOs add comments to code. Another example is that you don't have test coverage of your code base. And so for us, in order to prove equivalence between a legacy application and a replacement application, you actually need to generate effectively equivalent tests between your legacy app and your new modernized app.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":32,"time":"9:05","seconds":545,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"That can be done with LLMs instead of with human beings. Now, I say instead, and I mean that kind of loosely because I do believe the eighty twenty rule applies here, which is that you can get LLMs to assist with 80, but you still have this remaining 20% that's like purely manual effort. That being said, the 80% being done by LLMs is not on a human time scale, right? So the 80% lift done by LLMs can be done in minutes or hours or days. What would take a manual engineering, an","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":33,"time":"9:34","seconds":574,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"engineering team manual effort month or years even. So those are just some examples of things that we have done. Certainly other areas that are interesting is like sort of transforming the front end, as well as being able to do, like, conversion of business logic into code that's either documented business logic or even actual coded business logic for sure.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":34,"time":"10:01","seconds":601,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Totally. And and, Aten, I see you nodding along here to, like, everything Rachelle's saying, it's it seems like you're seeing similar opportunities to leverage both AI coding tools and agents in these kind of processes.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":35,"time":"10:14","seconds":614,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Yeah. Absolutely. I've seen, I think pretty much what Rachelle said in other enterprises as well. One interesting thing I've observed also is sort of connecting the dots, watching different advanced sort of use cases across different kinds of businesses is number one, the immersive experience that MLMs are providing in terms of writing code and code understanding, like Rachelle was saying,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":36,"time":"10:40","seconds":640,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"where you have modern IDEs where while you're in the process of writing code, you can essentially get rid of the 80% boilerplate, like doing left joins and, you know, basic for loops, and those kind of stuff is pretty much, I think, be fully automated out where you can literally write 80% of the code through prompts, and that leaves the 20% where you can focus on more abstract things like design.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":37,"time":"11:06","seconds":666,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"But one other thing I've noticed is the application of agents, and this is a little more modern more recently, but that's also equally exciting where you're actually trying to automate workflows using agents around code generation and code understanding. For example, there's yeah, you can easily code up a GitHub bot that would automatically write unit tests for you,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":38,"time":"11:28","seconds":688,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"and because unit test writing is a little more and less abstract, it's more deterministic, and there's lesser, you know, deviations of patterns that developers have historically applied to writing tests, that is pretty exciting where you can get pretty much a lot of test coverage out of the box, which obviously enhances the quality of your applications. But also you can get advanced code reviews done. This is kind of like taking code understanding to the next level where a developer puts a PR out and you automatically get","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":39,"time":"12:03","seconds":723,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"comments and suggestions on what you can change. And I've seen these couple of more agentic applications emerge in the recent past, but this will only get more and more advanced as newer types of agents come into the mix and more complex agentic architectures come. So there's a lot to sort of tap into the potential of LLMs.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":40,"time":"12:27","seconds":747,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"Yeah, totally. And if I could just whinge on that for a second. Like,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":41,"time":"12:32","seconds":752,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"in a way, right now, this technology is so new, so it's a lot of engineers don't really understand well how it works, and business folks, legal folks, engineers as well, are a little bit uncomfortable with it. But I don't as somebody who works in this environment all the time, I don't see it as being terribly different than Dependabot, right? Dependabot looks for security vulnerabilities inside of your repository and it suggests changes to you, and most of us just click okay and merge,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":42,"time":"13:03","seconds":783,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"Right? That's your new world that we're gonna be looking at with AI, I think. We're a little far from it, maybe. Maybe we're still a little far from that future world, but I don't think we're years out from that being how it is by default, actually.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":43,"time":"13:20","seconds":800,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"I absolutely agree. We're not years out at all. Pretty similar to Dependabot, like you said. It's a little more advanced kind of a Dependabot, which Right. Which has a brain of its own and has","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":44,"time":"13:32","seconds":812,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"more understanding of the surrounding context, I think we lose a lot of efficiency in coding. Like you said, a new developer comes and just the understanding of the certain vertical business logic is missing. And I think LLMs can automatically gain a lot of that. So we're not years out at all. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if within this year we have some very good high quality integrations with, you know, IDEs like Cursor and GitHub Actions","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":45,"time":"14:03","seconds":843,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"especially with, you know, it's getting easier and easier to create agents. So we will see a lot more innovation on this front this year.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":46,"time":"14:13","seconds":853,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"For sure. I think that's true as well.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":47,"time":"14:14","seconds":854,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And it's not just agents either. I you both have referenced the IDE opportunity. And as many folks have probably seen from latent spaces lately, evidently Cursor is the fastest ever SaaS to grow from a million to a 100,000,000 ARR. They have a small team. They really just built an incredible product where a developer can leverage it to rapidly speed up what they're doing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":48,"time":"14:37","seconds":877,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I'm curious because I think one of the challenges here is how do you then measure the success of what you're doing? Like, okay, great. You're shipping more code, but how are you tracking the success of your AI powered modernization efforts? What's what's your approach you're taking, Rachelle?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":49,"time":"14:50","seconds":890,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"Level of effort, and time. Right? So we do a","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":50,"time":"14:55","seconds":895,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"kind of an old fashioned scoping exercise where we say, like, okay, what are we doing? Here's the task. How long would this take a human manually to do? And sometimes we'll even do the task just to benchmark ourselves and we don't throw an intern at it. We have a senior or a staff engineer do the task. Maybe even in some ways it's a little unfair. And then we do the same task again with AI, right? And so the results on that are crazy, by the way.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":51,"time":"15:24","seconds":924,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"And even if you believe that the output of an LLM is not perfect, I have bad news for everybody, your output's not perfect either. And so let's not hold the technology to standards that we ourselves, our flawed human selves can't even meet. In which case, we now have an effective official benchmark per task level. And so across many tasks, the list of tasks that you would have to perform to actually modernize an application, that number","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":52,"time":"15:55","seconds":955,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"just becomes really, really insane. So you're looking at the ability to modernize legacy applications in months or a year, whereas normally it would take you on the magnitude of five plus years. And the team is five people instead of 40. And so that is really, really a large return on investment, honestly.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":53,"time":"16:17","seconds":977,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Atin, how does this correlate with your approach to evaluating success with AI applications, particularly around modernization, etcetera?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":54,"time":"16:25","seconds":985,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"You know, I think the reason why LLMs have shown a lot of success on the coding front is simply because code is a much more narrower sort of problem space than than say natural languages. It's Anyone who studied theory of finite automata would say that it's a finite state machine. There's a limited set of things that you can do, there's for loops, while loops, you can list them out, there's a couple dozen things that you can do in code, and that's really it, and all of the code in the world is some manifestation of some of these concepts,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":55,"time":"17:00","seconds":1020,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"so that's the reason why we've seen so much impact that an LLM can have, and this combined with the fact that Microsoft Research had published the paper Textbooks are all you need, which showed just the high quality of LLM output that you can achieve if you train it on high quality data, which they did with Stack Overflow code, etcetera, and there's a lot of open source repos out there. So that's the reason why it's successful.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":56,"time":"17:24","seconds":1044,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Now coming to sort of applicability, I think number one, it comes down to kind of what, you know, if you take the examples of Cursor and Windsurf, what they've done is they've met the user where they were prior to this whole revolution, which is in the IDE. So you're not changing user behavior that much, and instead kind of providing a more immersive experience","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":57,"time":"17:47","seconds":1067,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"in an existing, in a familiar setting. And this principle should apply to, I think, in anyone who's building innovative applications with LLMs and trying to of up the ante on the quality of some user experience with LLMs. They need to meet the user where they are. So that's where I think these companies like Cursor, etcetera, have done really well. I think to take it to the next level,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":58,"time":"18:14","seconds":1094,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"it comes down to good evaluations because like Rachelle said, humans are flawed, these LMs are flawed, they hallucinate, they throw wrong output. And in the context of coding, the line is very thin between good and bad. You know, a a little hallucination, you know, a missing import statement can cause the entire system to fail. Right? That that's whereas in language, you know, the the lines are kind of blurred. Here, the lines are very thin and very, very distinct.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":59,"time":"18:44","seconds":1124,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"So you need robust evaluation. You need human intervention, but also you need I think this is kind of our Galileo territory where we've been tasked with the, you know, the the responsibility of figuring out the Six Sigma evaluation experience. And when it comes to coding, it really comes down to customization because no one metric will solve your problem. It depends on what you're building, what you're coding.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":60,"time":"19:11","seconds":1151,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"So you want to provide a layer of customization where you are allowed to build a metric that will work for you, and then the metric itself will evolve as your application evolves. That is, I think, one of the fundamental things. And in light of that, I guess, to a shameless plug here, I guess what Galileo kind of offers is this ability for a developer in this case to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":61,"time":"19:36","seconds":1176,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"write their own metric. Like they want to build a code quality metric and here's their five criteria and this they define it in natural language and it goes through our system and out pops a metric on the other side, which measures the quality of their code and they are allowed to validate it and centralize it and share it with others. This evaluation workflow is critical to eliminating","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":62,"time":"20:00","seconds":1200,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"any flaws that NLM can output in terms of code.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":63,"time":"20:03","seconds":1203,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"Yeah. No. And I think actually, I think in some ways it makes engineers in a better position than, like, many businesses who wanna use AI. And the reason why is because I do think some of that subjectivity is removed. Right? Like, in the end, the code either builds or it doesn't, and it either passes your test or it doesn't.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":64,"time":"20:25","seconds":1225,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"And there's this extra layer of like, well, maybe we have coding conventions, and like we also have like sometimes we care a lot some organizations care a lot about performance. Some of them it's like, meh. So there's this area of quite a lot of leeway and the ability to define your own snowflake, if you will. But in the end, for engineers at least, either builds or it doesn't and it passes tests or it doesn't. If it doesn't, then you can just tell the LLM to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":65,"time":"20:56","seconds":1256,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"correct it until it does, which is also nice.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":66,"time":"20:59","seconds":1259,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"That's a good point you bring up about the coding style and each organization has its own sort of standards that they define and certainly LLMs can take that standard into consideration.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":67,"time":"21:13","seconds":1273,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Rachelle, you alluded earlier in the conversation to this idea of AI enabling teams to go back to their startup roots and how that's particularly something that you're applying as a mentality within MongoDB. Can you expand on what you mean by this and how you see AI facilitating this and other changes for your team?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":68,"time":"21:33","seconds":1293,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"Firstly, like, when you're a startup, it's anybody who can do the work, please do the work because there's so much work to be done. And then when you get to be a very large organization, you get into kind of this hyper specialization where everybody has their own little square of turf and they own the thing, and where it becomes challenging to move quickly is that you have to consult everybody's square, right? You're The United States, only there's a thousand states and each one of them has to say yes before you can build anything.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":69,"time":"22:04","seconds":1324,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"And one of the things that's quite frankly awesome, I want to curse here because it's like, this is needed, is that the reason we have all of these processes, we have program management that makes us write a PD, they make us write a scope, they make us write functional requirements and technical designs, is because you have to get buy in from all of the states.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":70,"time":"22:28","seconds":1348,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"And you have to give everybody ample opportunity to understand what it is you're going to build, and you have to give them ample opportunity to say no to whatever you want to build because maybe there's some other need that might be more important that might arise sometime. And so we impose all these processes around our engineering teams. And the reality is, is that in a new world with AI,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":71,"time":"22:53","seconds":1373,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"why do you need all that if you can write a whole application in two days? And you don't like it, we can throw it away and we'll write a new one. And I actually believe even if you wanna keep all the same processes, you can also use AI with those processes. So we use, on my team, we've used AI to write a PD in minute, as opposed to week. We've used it to write functional requirements and technical designs, and then evaluate our technical designs, and then change those technical designs based on things we as humans might even forget.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":72,"time":"23:26","seconds":1406,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"And so all of that is just so much faster, and that just assumes you even want to keep the same processes, which I'm not sure that you do, but we're not yet in the era of figuring out what processes do we need to facilitate this level of speed that we're now capable of generating code and generating tests and generating new features so quickly. The processes that we have grown up with as engineers are","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":73,"time":"23:55","seconds":1435,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"so, so I I think we would all agree they're soul crushingly slow anyway, but they are definitely soul crushingly slow in the era of AI, in which case we need a whole rethink about how processes facilitate engineering work in this in this new mental model and working model.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-73","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":74,"time":"24:14","seconds":1454,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I completely agree. And I see Aten","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-74","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":75,"time":"24:17","seconds":1457,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"wants to chime in here as well, but it's such a huge opportunity to speed up our experimentation and iteration process. And I mean, we've talked about agile and engineering for decades now, but like we can be so much more agile because we're being enabled with these tools and it's like, we'll just try more things.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-75","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":76,"time":"24:35","seconds":1475,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I agree with you both, and just to add this one additional point, coming back to the earlier example I used of code migration from Python to Go at Uber. Like one of the reasons why that was really successful was not because a thousand, you know, opinion docs were written about, you know, the the advantages of Goroutines and multithreaded.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-76","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":77,"time":"24:57","seconds":1497,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"It was simply because we prototyped a version of Uber on Go and showed 10x improvement. Right? Proof is in the pudding and you can go a lot further if you just show the proof. So I've personally been moving our engineering at Galileo to this prototype driven model where, you know, stop writing docs, just build it in a in a two hours, just build an MVP, just show that what you're trying to say, and show me the numbers","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-77","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":78,"time":"25:23","seconds":1523,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"and we'll move to that. Because at the end of the day, why do we write docs? Like they're a means to assisting what the eventual end is, which is the code and the application. So anything that can get us to those decisions on why we wanna do it, nothing better than a quick prototype, and LLMs can really disrupt that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-78","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":79,"time":"25:42","seconds":1542,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"Yeah. And I think what's really amazing, like, if you're sitting where I'm sitting at, you're looking at potentially,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-79","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":80,"time":"25:51","seconds":1551,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"like, true infrastructure of these companies of the world, like trading platforms, insurance platforms, government platforms that provide assistance to the needy. And when you can prototype a newer version that's more performant, that's on modern technology within weeks, people are truly astounded because they're used to this time scale that's so, so long to see anything.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-80","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":81,"time":"26:21","seconds":1581,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"And I I just think I just think it's a really great thing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-81","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":82,"time":"26:24","seconds":1584,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I completely agree with you both that there is this huge opportunity to change our processes in a positive way that enables more experimentation, enables more problem solving, and ends up in better products faster. However, there are challenges or considerations that come with this increased velocity of code creation and this increased agility that we're trying to insert in our org, and it's major changes for some orgs. How are you both thinking through","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-82","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":83,"time":"26:55","seconds":1615,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"these actual, like, org changes and how you're changing the org charts or how you're changing the processes or how you're changing roles? Rachelle, I know you have a bunch of thoughts on this.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-83","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":84,"time":"27:04","seconds":1624,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"There's a couple of areas where I think you see a lot of change, and let's talk about, like, what what I think is really needed. And I can give you an example that we are not involved in yet, but I I it's all moving on the horizon. Right? And it's the top of mind example, I think, for everybody with AI, which is your sort of worst case, which is medical records, right?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-84","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":85,"time":"27:27","seconds":1647,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"So I know and have read about AI being involved in diagnosing patients and giving recommendations, for instance. In my opinion, what is needed in these areas of very high risk is a tight partnership between engineering that's building the applications and the subject matter experts who can proof the outputs of an LLM. Because if our engineering team is building a medical app,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-85","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":86,"time":"27:57","seconds":1677,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"none of us are doctors. We have no idea, right? It could say you have tuberculosis and I don't know, okay, I mean, that is a thing you can have, Check mark success. Whereas, you really need a much better partnership between your subject matter expert, in this case a doctor or a nurse or a physician's assistant, to prove that the application that you've built is accurate. And basically, you need to invent ways","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-86","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":87,"time":"28:24","seconds":1704,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"to have the LLM act as a judge against itself with that subject matter expertise. Right? So that may mean fine tuning a model with medical information. It may mean what we use as repair loops where we have an LLM play different roles and evaluate the outputs, But definitely, like, effort and work has to happen here to be able to be sure that what your l l that what the LLMs is producing actually","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-87","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":88,"time":"28:58","seconds":1738,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"will meet a quality bar. Definitely.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-88","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":89,"time":"29:01","seconds":1741,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I know you've had to kind of adjust how your team approaches at times. And one of the ways you've done that is this new terminology that we're seeing happen and which is highly involved in your role, which is forward deployed engineers, forward deployed AI engineers. Can you explain what this means and how this differs from previous iterations of these roles?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-89","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":90,"time":"29:23","seconds":1763,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"So","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-90","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":91,"time":"29:25","seconds":1765,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"before running this team, I was a product leader at MongoDB for developer experience. This is an outward facing role where it owns the responsibility of our client libraries, so our drivers, and our framework integrations, including AIML frameworks, and then also our developer education, docs and academia, so textbooks and things like that. How we would develop a product or a feature is basically someone like me","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-91","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":92,"time":"29:58","seconds":1798,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"in that old role would think of it, and then we would write a bunch of documentation and we'd pass them around and we'd get alignment and we'd scope and then we'd start writing code and then we'd build the thing and then we would show a beta to some users and hopefully they would reply and give us their feedback, and then eventually we GA. In the forward deployed engineering model, which was really coined by Palantir,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-92","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":93,"time":"30:22","seconds":1822,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"you put engineers on the ground with the customer or the organization, and their mission is to build whatever is useful and works right then as quickly as possible. So you have this time to minimally viable thing going on that's so fast. And with AI, it's only faster. And in that way, you can actually take I think in academia, they refer to this as the steel thread, which is that if you think about how a human being is constructed, you kind of like start with the bones and then you add meat and then you add skin, and then you add hair. So you start with this core functionality and build outward as opposed to having somebody,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-93","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":94,"time":"31:04","seconds":1864,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"usually a product manager, stand back and from afar envision a person, and then what they attempt to hand to the customer is the fully fledged person two years later. So it's a very different way of developing software, but I think it allows for really rapid innovation in a way that suits AI very well. Hopefully, And all makes sense. I I don't think I've ever had to explain forward deployed engineering to me.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-94","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":95,"time":"31:31","seconds":1891,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"I'd love to add here that, you know, this concept of forward deployed engineers,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-95","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":96,"time":"31:37","seconds":1897,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"the main reason is to, like Rachelle said, get to an MVP faster, iterate faster, move faster, just be more agile. But, of course, you know, velocity can lead to disarray. So, you know, how do you how do you curb the disarray is kind of the question. And from my vantage point, I've seen is kind of what going back to what Rachelle described, some of these architectures","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-96","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":97,"time":"32:01","seconds":1921,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"or responsibilities of forward deployed engineers. The paradigms that they follow are kind of the early goings of agentic architectures, like she described. And you can automate a bunch of that by, you know, building simple agents and they can assist with forward deployed engineering a bit. But where we've seen a lot of value come through, at least in still early days, but we are seeing a lot of value in kind of centralizing","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-97","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":98,"time":"32:28","seconds":1948,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"evaluations as well as like how, Rachelle described app simulation where there's, you know, subject matter experts who want to test apps. So the centralizing of all this can lead to less disarray because now you have a system of record and protocols in place on how you want to simulate an app and how do you take something from prototype to deploy it on the cloud for your subject matter experts to test and, you know, change the prompts and change the parameters and, you know, suggest information back to the developers who can then again,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-98","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":99,"time":"33:02","seconds":1982,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"you know, change their agents or, and then add back to the system of record. So this centralizing of and evaluations is part of this. So centralizing metrics, centralizing, you know, custom evaluation methodologies, and really providing like a central kind of one stop shop. But for all these, just sort of, it takes a village to productionize an application, and the goal is to do it fast and move iteratively.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-99","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":100,"time":"33:27","seconds":2007,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"The central management system, which we are trying to build here at Galileo, of like the central agentic evaluation system, LLM assisted, of course, that can go a long way in kind of ensuring that, you know, the disarray doesn't happen and it lead potentially doesn't lead to all the pitfalls of, you know, moving too fast.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-100","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":101,"time":"33:48","seconds":2028,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"Yeah. Think that's I totally true. Mean, evaluation","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-101","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":102,"time":"33:53","seconds":2033,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"purposes, we get asked for so much advice and one of them is like, which LLM do we use? Which embedding model do we use? And actually just having benchmarks of like, Well, this LLM and this embedding model, this is the benchmark for producing Golang code. And just being able to see that in front of them enables engineering teams to decide on which LLM and which embedding model to use because they have no idea.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-102","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":103,"time":"34:20","seconds":2060,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"Sometimes I actually think benchmarking is really important, or evaluation tools are really important at the beginning of the process, just knowing what pick, what to choose for yourself. Because if you know that this LLM and embedding model is 73% accurate and this one is 91, there's no reason to pick the 73 or whatever. So actually evaluation could be really important before you even get started.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-103","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":104,"time":"34:48","seconds":2088,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Completely agreed. And Rachelle, I really liked how you talked earlier about the benchmarking process that you approach these modernizations with as far as having engineers deliver specific discrete parts of the modernization process to then benchmark against the LLM deployed piece of it as well, because this clearly sets you up to not only have this like source of ground truth of like, okay, here's how fast we can do a certain unit of this task, let's now break it down and really understand the breadth of it, but then you can kind of apply that across your evaluation of metrics approach.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-104","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":105,"time":"35:23","seconds":2123,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I know part of how you've come to this perspective is that you have done a lot of review of kind of the academic research of the perspectives out there before diving into AI tool development. Can you talk a bit about why you think it's crucial for, engineers to be paying attention to the academic side as well and how it can help teams avoid potential pitfalls?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-105","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":106,"time":"35:48","seconds":2148,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"For sure. And, yeah, this is so important. When you are on an engineering team that wants to start out with using AI, it is very tempting and super easy to just maybe Google it and read a Medium post or a Stack Overflow post or a blog, and or or or not even do that and just kind of wing it and get started with just, I'm gonna throw some stuff in an LLM and then see how it responds.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-106","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":107,"time":"36:16","seconds":2176,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"And that's mostly because our way of working as engineers over the last fifteen to twenty years has been exactly that, right? There's nothing wrong with that. However, we have this additional benefit, which is that AI and ML was born in the academic community. Unlike engineers, the academic community documents everything. So you actually have a huge wealth of knowledge in terms of how LLMs operate,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-107","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":108,"time":"36:50","seconds":2210,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"how you can construct software chains of actions together to get better and better results, and that's been studied by computer science, people getting PhDs in computer science for years and years. So if you just take even one day to research that and then read some of those papers, you actually will go into your development cycle with a lot more knowledge than even the average engineer,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-108","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":109,"time":"37:20","seconds":2240,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"and you can make much more effective tooling. I think this is just a new way of working for software engineers. We don't typically look at, like, academic white papers written by university students before we, like, build apps. But if you do that, you you will really unlock your productivity, and and you will save yourself some lessons learned because it's already been studied and and documented. It also gives you an idea of what to expect because it could be that, you know, six academic teams all around the world have studied this. They benchmark the performance of an LLM at a specific task, and there's no point in you trying to get to 100% because the best you're ever going to get, even with","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-109","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":110,"time":"38:01","seconds":2281,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"every single optimization that's been thought of so far, the best you may ever get is 75, and the rest is going to be manual. It's good for you to know that and be able to see what variations people have tried already so that you don't have to go through that again.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-110","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":111,"time":"38:16","seconds":2296,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And, Aten, I know you've also taken this perspective of diving into the research. It's actually something we've done quite a bit at Galileo, is creating our own research as well. Do you have any thoughts you want to add here?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-111","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":112,"time":"38:27","seconds":2307,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Yeah, I mean, just a second","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-112","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":113,"time":"38:30","seconds":2310,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"what Rachelle said. It is really this new muscle that should be part of modern day software evaluation tooling. Cause I think I've always taken this hot take that in the next three years, every single software application will have some kind of AI footprint, either it would have been written partially by AI or it would have AI features in it. But in this new world of developing software,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-113","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":114,"time":"38:55","seconds":2335,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"the gap is really what Rachelle was highlighting, which is the modern way of evaluating and testing, and so far it's been a lot more deterministic, unit tests, integration tests, smoke tests, what have you, but now we have benchmarking and evaluation practices and AB comparisons and the practices which researchers are typically used to, so as far as bringing that into a modern day evaluation","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-114","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":115,"time":"39:25","seconds":2365,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"tooling is concerned, our take was that there is a need for new ways to look at, you know, software evaluations and new methods to evaluate it, because even from a machine learning standpoint, just taking a dataset and splitting it into two and having ground truth and running an f one score on it, the entire hypothesis of Galileo, the underlying reason we started the company was we saw those methods as","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-115","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":116,"time":"39:54","seconds":2394,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"kind of myopic and necessary but not sufficient, and they would treat all errors the same way, and it was very, very limiting in its way approach towards determining whether an AI system is good or not. So we set out on this journey to create new methods to evaluate it, and now in this modern era of LLM driven software development, we are bringing a lot of data research","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-116","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":117,"time":"40:17","seconds":2417,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"into tooling and building a platform which is conducive for the user, meets the user where they are, and is customizable so that they can create their own metrics and do this kind of evaluation and benchmarking in a way where it's not an entirely new thing which can shock them, but kind of sort of eases, you know, you I earlier said, right, you need to meet them where they are, so the ability to do that in a unit test or in an integration test is kind of the right way to go about it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-117","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":118,"time":"40:47","seconds":2447,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Rachelle, what are your thoughts on this approach that Autin's talking about?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-118","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":119,"time":"40:51","seconds":2451,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"Absolutely.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-119","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":120,"time":"40:52","seconds":2452,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"And I can give you an example of a tool that we have and how we use that that sort of evaluation. So at MongoDB, one of the things we worry about is the code quality generated by an LLM. Think everybody worries about that. When you have it generate tests, the tests are actually just codes also. And so what we have built is this chain of repair where it looks at the evaluation metric, which is a custom evaluation metric that we have come up with over time,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-120","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":121,"time":"41:20","seconds":2480,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"and until it hits a certain score, we repair, right? And we just say fix the code, make it better, fix the code, make it better. And of course, we have a lot of ways in which we explain to the LLM how to fix it and make it better, but it continues to loop through that until it hits a certain score. And no human looks at the code until it hits that score. And we go through a certain number of iterations of that, and if we can't hit the score, then a human intervenes. But otherwise, that allows us to just sort of have this more","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-121","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":122,"time":"41:49","seconds":2509,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"automated code generating machine, right? Where we can be assured that the code passes a quality check before we even send it to test. Because there's no reason to send it to test because it'll always fail because it's not high quality code. Right? And so that's how we use that's an example of how we use these custom evaluation metrics to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-122","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":123,"time":"42:07","seconds":2527,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"to yield good result and speed.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-123","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":124,"time":"42:09","seconds":2529,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I love it. Rachelle, thank you so much for coming on the show. It's been an absolute pleasure having you with us today. Where can folks learn more about the work you are doing and the work you're doing at MongoDB?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-124","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":125,"time":"42:20","seconds":2540,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"Nowhere. No. But seriously, nowhere. So we've been really quiet about the modernization factory, and forward deployed engineering and field engineering. So I guess message me on LinkedIn, and that's your method. There's, I think, one blog post on mongodb.com.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-125","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":126,"time":"42:39","seconds":2559,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So I'll have to try to find that. But, thanks so much for giving us a little bit of a sneak peek into your thought process. It's been a ton of fun, and, thanks for joining us for this episode of Chain of Thought. If folks wanna dive deeper into everything we've discussed today, we will have that all in the show notes. As always, check it out for all the links and resources. And hey, while you're at it, go ahead and subscribe to Chain of Thought wherever you get your podcasts. It helps more folks discover the show. We're on YouTube as well. Plus, if you're really loving the episodes we produce, if you thought Rachelle was fantastic,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-126","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":127,"time":"43:08","seconds":2588,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"you could let us know on social media. We'd love to hear from you. Or consider leaving us a rating or review on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. It's a great way to help other folks discover the show. Aten, Rachelle, thanks so much for joining me today.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-127","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":128,"time":"43:18","seconds":2598,"speaker":"Rachelle Palmer","text":"Yes. Thanks so much for having me.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-128","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer","episode":14,"guid":"f0b82592-a343-41e4-aeca-4e42288a8aad","episodeTitle":"Using AI to Modernize Your Legacy Applications | MongoDB’s Rachelle Palmer","publishedAt":"2025-03-12","segmentIndex":129,"time":"43:20","seconds":2600,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Pleasure.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/14-using-ai-to-modernize-your-legacy-applications-mongodbs-rachelle-palmer/#t-129","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:01","seconds":1,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Hey, everyone. It is your host, Conor Bronsdon here. This week, we're doing something a little different, and we are showcasing an interview from a different podcast. As some of you may know, I previously hosted the Dev Interrupted podcast, and our friends over there, Andrew and Ben at Dev Interrupted, graciously invited my fellow Chain of Thought cohost and Galileo CEO, Vikram Chatterji,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:22","seconds":22,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"to their show to discuss how engineering leaders should position their AI strategy. Andrew and Vikram had a great discussion, and we are excited to share it with our audience here at Chain of Thought this week. If you enjoy it, we definitely recommend considering adding Dev Interrupted to your podcast listening feed as well. They have a bunch of great content. You'll hear me on a lot of the back catalog.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":2,"time":"0:44","seconds":44,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And they discussed in their conversation with Vikram how to balance the pressure from business leaders and from the stock market to adopt AI with the need to justify spend while avoiding risky investments. It's a delicate balance, and we think this episode is a must listen for anyone working in or leading engineering teams. We'll be back next week with our regularly scheduled programming. We've got some great interviews lined up. I think you'll love some of folks who are gonna be joining us. But for now, all of the hosts over at Interrupted take it from here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:14","seconds":74,"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","text":"Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Dev Interrupted. I'm your host, Andrew Zigler, developer advocate at Linear B. And joining me today is Vikram Chatterji, co founder and CEO of Galileo. Vikram has been on the front lines of the AI revolution for many years, from leading product management at Google during the birth of transformers to building tools that help engineering teams confidently evaluate and deploy AI systems.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":4,"time":"1:40","seconds":100,"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","text":"Here's the crux of today's conversation. Engineering leaders are stuck between a rock and a hard place. They know they need to experiment with AI to stay competitive, but they're under immense pressure to justify those costs. All the while, AI evolves so rapidly that today's wrong move could cost them tomorrow's opportunity. Vikram, welcome to the show. Thank you, Andrew. Super excited to be here. Likewise. Let's jump right in. Starting with the biggest challenge currently facing engineering leaders, AI being that moving target and experimenting","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":5,"time":"2:17","seconds":137,"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","text":"feeling risky, it's a big barrier to adoption, and the fear of making the wrong investment is ever present. How do you think leaders can take the first steps without putting themselves or their teams in a bad position?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":6,"time":"2:30","seconds":150,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"I've always thought about AI as, you know, it's another tool in your arsenal. Right? Even before generative AI became a very big thing, with classical machine learning and with NLP,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":7,"time":"2:43","seconds":163,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"it was never about, like, hey. You have to use this thing. It was more about what's your use case, and based on that, is this a good fit for your use case? Now, I guess the difference is what we're with a lot of engineering leaders that we talk to, there's a lot of top down pressure to just use AI for the sake of it. To get to your point about the rock between a rock and a hard place, it's very important for","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":8,"time":"3:04","seconds":184,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"engineering leaders to think about what are the heuristics, right, that is gonna help me figure out, you know, is this something that we should be even going ahead with? And that includes things like, what does the business need? Because what I've seen is folks just do a massive hackathon within their org, and you're gonna get a 100 ideas just given how open ended AI can be right now, right, in terms of whether it's generation of text, whether it's generation of images or completion of a task with agents. You get a 100 use cases, but it's very, very important for them to then go back to product","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":9,"time":"3:38","seconds":218,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"and business owners to figure out which one of them should they prioritize. And also on the back of that, which one of them can you actually get out the door very quickly? And that's kind of where the operational rigor has to kick in of like trying out x number of ideas very, very fast. So you have to have that machinery in place and the ability to push back and say that, hey, maybe I don't need to use AI at all. But when I do, here's how I need to do it. And at that point, we can talk about this more, but we have to think it through in terms of if I succeed, what does that mean for me in terms of the number of engineers I need for this, the the evals,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":10,"time":"4:13","seconds":253,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"the cost of of productionizing this thing at scale. So there's a bunch of things that people have to think about and a lot of trade offs at the onset itself.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":11,"time":"4:21","seconds":261,"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","text":"So it sounds like in balance with that proliferation of ideas, you really need an evaluation framework or a way to understand and extract scenarios that are maybe have a higher ROI or a higher impact on your business, and focus on those. Because I think that's kind of part of the problem too, is you're drowning in possible solutions and everyone can come up with maybe a way to integrate it in some way. But is that the most effective way? Is that where we should focus our attention?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":12,"time":"4:48","seconds":288,"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","text":"And the more attention you put on something, it can skew than how the rest of your organization is using and thinking about AI. So those decisions, especially early on, you know, they're really impactful. How would you advise or what habits do you think make for somebody to be able to evaluate and derisk that experimentation? Like, are some what are those tools that those kinds of people are always using again and again to do that well? Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":13,"time":"5:15","seconds":315,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"It's a great question. I will say it depends a lot on the organization, and you have to just know your organization well. So if you're a big bank, right, the amount of harm that can happen if you put something out there in a in the consumer world with AI and it misfires is very, very large. It can literally derail your entire bank's reputation. For a commoditized entity like a bank,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":14,"time":"5:37","seconds":337,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"you're gonna be out of business very quickly. On the other hand, if you're, let's say, a DoorDash or an Instacart, the the bar is probably a bit lower because not to say that they they have a low bar in general, but if something goes wrong with their their chatbot or something like that, it's not gonna be the end of the world because they're not dealing with people's money. They're dealing with hungry people, which is bad, but they're not dealing with people's money.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":15,"time":"5:58","seconds":358,"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","text":"What Maybe you didn't get my burger, but, you know, my bank account didn't have, like, an unauthorized transaction or something.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":16,"time":"6:04","seconds":364,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"They're totally different stakes. They're totally different stakes. And so what I've seen as a result of that is when you talk to these large enterprises, they're very, very excited about generative AI, they're very excited to add agents and everything else. But they're very, they're taking a very, very careful crawl, walk, run approach to it, which I think is good. What I'm seeing with the other, like companies where they are earlier stages, they're tech first, let's say as an example, like a DoorDash or like an Instacart","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":17,"time":"6:29","seconds":389,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"or like an Airbnb or a Twilio, they're taking a much more experimental approach to this. Right? Like let's try things out. Let's see how it goes. Let's see how we feel. It's very much on the lines of, you know, build fast, break things, learn quickly. And that's really led to them kind of figuring things out as they go. And it is also useful when, as this industry is moving super quickly. So based on the organization, I've seen like the barrier to entry from a","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":18,"time":"6:55","seconds":415,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"fault tolerance perspective is different. Now, within that, if you're an engineering leader at a faster moving company, if you're all about experimentation and going fast, then the question becomes, how do you plan well? And there is a certain crawl walk around there as well, to be honest, Andrew, because what we've seen there is you have to think about, you know, is it going to be 15 use cases, 10 use cases? Like you have to have some forecasting there because once based on the forecasting, have to do a couple of things. You first think about the compute costs and then staff yourself with enough, I don't know, A100s","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":19,"time":"7:26","seconds":446,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"and have that available for you so that everyone can just build. Otherwise, everyone's gonna come back to you and say like, hey, where's my GPU at? So you have to have like X amount of compute and give that out very judiciously. You then have to think about how can you optimize the compute and you know, start to invest in tooling at that layer to minimize the cost of compute.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":20,"time":"7:47","seconds":467,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"And then comes the eval piece, which is kind of what Galileo does, where you have to think about how do you create the right kind of guardrails in place for like an AI CICD process. And then basically go to the teams and say, awesome. Alright. You wanna you wanna launch things? You wanna experiment with things? Here's the stack that you can use. Go knock yourself out. Right? And some people will use the entire stack, some won't, but you have to create that enablement almost within the team before they can, like, go crazy.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":21,"time":"8:15","seconds":495,"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","text":"That's a big unlock. So let me try to unpack this playbook because I think there's a lot of really interesting tips in here. One of them being, first and foremost, understanding your company, your company culture, their risk tolerance and what they're doing. And understanding that there's a big difference between a traditional enterprise and a digital native company","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":22,"time":"8:34","seconds":514,"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","text":"experimenting with AI right now, especially with different levels of risk within what they're working on. So it's about understanding your own company, your own environment, the level of risk and the tolerance for experimentation. But then getting into that, you know, crawl, walk, run loop that's going to get you up and get you moving on this process. It's about creating","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":23,"time":"8:56","seconds":536,"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","text":"the actual resources to enable those teams to make effective tools. And so if you're going to create a way for them to grow within your company, you have to all think about resourcing them and prioritizing them based upon, again, you know, maybe the profile of your company culture. So it really does start with understanding your culture.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":24,"time":"9:15","seconds":555,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Exactly. And you you hit on a good point. It's the it's the culture. It's the it's the people.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":25,"time":"9:22","seconds":562,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Again, it comes down to like also the business that you're running, whether you're in Instacart or a DoorDash. Again, going back to that example, they have many different ways of instituting generative AI, but maybe there's a different company that really doesn't have those many use cases and that's okay. You kind of have to look at all of those different angles and then figure out how you want to act and how quickly you want to act. But it does stem with that. As an engineering leader, I would say step one is always","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":26,"time":"9:46","seconds":586,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"just that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":27,"time":"9:47","seconds":587,"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","text":"Right. And part of company culture, and it's kind of what I want to focus on next, is also, you know, fears and anxieties around making the right or wrong decisions or creating tools that are doing jobs that traditionally people did within their org and understanding how people need to reprioritize their time to better use these tools. And in doing all of this, I think we're all trying to make systems that are future proof. We don't want to rebuild these AI workflows again and again and again. We want to make it once and evaluate it and iterate on it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":28,"time":"10:21","seconds":621,"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","text":"So that's part of justifying too the ROI and going back to creating the resources within your team for that to grow. So how can an engineering leader, perhaps someone who's in a company culture that's maybe more on the digital native side, have an appetite for risk and experimentation? Maybe they even have a little bit of resources. How can they shift those conversations","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":29,"time":"10:42","seconds":642,"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","text":"with nontechnical leadership from immediate gains to creating future proof solutions that are gonna help the company in maybe like a year or five years from now?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":30,"time":"10:52","seconds":652,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"It comes down to building trust. I think the first thing becomes, like, as an engineering leader, I've talked to a lot of different leaders in this space, and it all comes down to, number one, first, having a gut instinct reaction,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":31,"time":"11:05","seconds":665,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"a gut instinct on their own side, personally. Like, kind of a trust that, you know, these use cases are great, and this use case is actually gonna be a good one to start with. The second is staff that. Just go very, very fast and build out a prototype and start to see, does that actually add value? And then shop that around with others in your business. They could be leaders in the business, depending on how large the company is. And you can now, with GenAI, the unlock is that you can build a prototype pretty quickly. And so you can at least start to get a sense for what is the appetite here. And that's typically what I've seen happen.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":32,"time":"11:39","seconds":699,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"And then from from there, you can start to figure out what's the, what are the KPIs are. Right? Because the main the main thing is you want to be able to ship something pretty quickly. You want to go to production quickly with the right checks and balances in place. So you start with at least one to two use cases as quickly as you possibly can with the right checks and balances and guardrails in place, and then start to see how that looks. Like, roll it out to 1%, 5%, 10%. Start to see what you learn. And then with that playbook, you can go very fast with everything else.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":33,"time":"12:09","seconds":729,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"This is exactly what we've seen with the largest banks in the world, as well as the digital natives. It's just that the digital natives are just moving much, much faster than the largest banks. But this playbook is kinda similar on both sides.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":34,"time":"12:21","seconds":741,"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","text":"It makes a lot of sense in terms of how those teams can get started. It's also about evaluating, going back to the evaluative frameworks from earlier, and having measurements in place to look at the results week after week, and that creates within the company culture a healthy socialization and understanding of the tools that people are building and we're using, and that's what cultivates the trust. And it's also something really hard to find in an LLM based world. You know, LLMs are stochastic, they don't want to repeat themselves. So when you put them into an environment where you want a repeatable workflow,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":35,"time":"12:57","seconds":777,"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","text":"where you have an AI agent evaluating things on the fly, there's so much to consider. And that's kind of part of, you know, the dauntingness of that I was alluding to earlier. In our initial conversation, you know, there was something that you mentioned to me that's really resonated with me since. And as you mentioned how AI agents in the future or even now, they can act as smart routers or kind of like load balancers","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":36,"time":"13:21","seconds":801,"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","text":"for workflows and help optimize them over time. And that was really fascinating to me. I'm wondering if maybe you could dive into that a little more. Just on a technical level, now that we've talked about introducing these products and or these projects within your company, if you are somebody who's revolutionizing a workflow right now with AI, how should they best kind of think about it?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":37,"time":"13:44","seconds":824,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"What I'll say is in terms of agents in particular, how that works. So for context for folks, Galileo is leading provider of evaluation tooling for any AI developer out there that's building an AI app, right? And what that means is an eval basically includes not just the metrics, but also like the dataset that you're working with. And it includes like a workflow so you can really understand what your failure modes are, build out evals around that, and then use that in your CICD process. So you know exactly if you're shipping a good product, and once you ship, you can check for regression test. That's the net net of how evals work. Now with agents, what's interesting is we've kind of moved from people building like just chatbots. That was like, it almost felt like that's just as far as the imagination could go in terms of use cases. To now it's like, you can complete any task. What's the task that your product does? So, you know, we started seeing this with operators launch as well, which is a good example of an agent where all of a sudden I started to see booking.com's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":38,"time":"14:41","seconds":881,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"folks talking about like, hey, now you can book a hotel room with just natural language. And then box.com's CEOs started talking about how you can, like, add files and folders. So it just unlocked all these use cases. So and that's kinda what we're seeing with agents coming. Are they are these are these are these apps perfect? No. And here's why. Because what's happening with with agents is it's essentially a way to say like, hey, LLM,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":39,"time":"15:05","seconds":905,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"instead of just generating something, why don't you just act towards choosing the right kind of tool? Or here's a function, I've wrapped it in a certain manner, do x for me. Right? So making it do specific things. The tool piece of this especially is interesting because now the API can act as, as you mentioned, as a smart router to figure out, you know, which tool should I use for finishing this task, which is I think the biggest unlock right now. Because earlier, you would just code all of that. You would like literally, deterministically say, this is exactly what you need to do. Versus now, it's almost like, I just want this done. You figure it out. You figure it out for me. Which is also why there's almost like this leader worker relationship almost with an","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":40,"time":"15:46","seconds":946,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"agent that's happening. And so that's been a very big unlock because now these agents can just find out the right tool and go ahead. However, it does lead to different kinds of failure modes, right? Like, did it choose the right tool or not? Did the right tool get called in the right way or not? Even if it did choose the right tool, what happened after that? Can I see the entire flow of how all of that worked out? At the end of the day, did it complete the task? What do you mean by complete the task? How do you measure quality of task completion? Did it plan the whole task properly or not? So there's a bunch of these different kinds of","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":41,"time":"16:22","seconds":982,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"qualitative stuff along the way that you need.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":42,"time":"16:24","seconds":984,"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","text":"They need to get evaluated in in the evaluation system that we've been talking about. So those all of those things need to get looked at. Because when you're when you're in this environment where it's sitting as a router or it's making smart decisions, it's no longer like a chatbot where chatbot where it's query response, query response. Instead, it's request or, you know, demand or like, you know, you need it to do something and it's then a sequence","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":43,"time":"16:48","seconds":1008,"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","text":"of actions. And those actions lack visibility to you. You're not staring at it making the decisions or the actions or making the API calls. You just see what it tells you at the end. So Yep. That's kind of where I and that goes back to building trust as well. Yep. Because you need to understand what's happening in those stages. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":44,"time":"17:08","seconds":1028,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Exactly. It's it's funny how similar this is to working with a human being. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":45,"time":"17:12","seconds":1032,"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","text":"Exactly. That's what's coming to mind for me too. I really liked what you said about leaders","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":46,"time":"17:17","seconds":1037,"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","text":"and and contributors, but it kind of being this balance of the you as an engineer are overseeing the output or the work of the agent, and you're responsible for its success, just like how a manager is responsible for their IC's, you know, success. You have to give it the right tools, the right environment, and the right context. So it's a it's I think it's a big unlock. Are you kind of seeing that from folks that are starting to engage in these workflows?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":47,"time":"17:42","seconds":1062,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"We are because that's exactly the kind of question that they're asking around, like, hey. How do I make sure that everything worked fine? And also, the if it did work fine and the answer is correct, can I see what the route was that it took? Because maybe it's just making unnecessary API calls that it doesn't have to in the first place. Can I optimize this even further? So there's a big question around","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":48,"time":"18:03","seconds":1083,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"what are the failure modes, but also can I have a visualization into like how the how the entire AI app like actually made its decisions and how it was planning so I can maybe tweak things here and there? The system itself, I think the folks at Databricks, Matteza Haria coined the term compound systems for what we at Galileo basically call your AI app. The compound system is becoming more complex because of these agentic scenarios where essentially that's people are adding function calls.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":49,"time":"18:32","seconds":1112,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"So it's it's fascinating because now it's even closer to classical software engineering and it's all about how good are your functions and how well are you managing it all. And those engineers come to us and they ask us about, great, this is fun, but how do I what is a unit test for me now? And what is a regression test for me now? And that's where eval has come in.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":50,"time":"18:51","seconds":1131,"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","text":"Right. I'd like to understand a little more about how does Galileo open that box so that you look in to understand","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":51,"time":"19:00","seconds":1140,"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","text":"how those tools are working and and and how somebody would use something like that to build confidence. Because what you're describing is like a whole new category to me of how we think about tools. When you're in an environment where you're defining a novel category, that's really, you have to do a lot of, like, definition setting and understanding. So we're all for the first time opening the box and looking inside on the workflows, workflows that we're building now for the first time. What does Galileo provide? What are the things that people should be looking for?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":52,"time":"19:32","seconds":1172,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"What Galileo tries to do is our our end goal is to help you build high quality AI apps fast. That's our end goal. So we win if you're building those apps 10 x faster and those apps are 10 x better. That's our goal. Now in order to do that, that includes what I think of as the visualization layer, meaning, like, you could just see your traces and spans. I feel like that's the easy part. It is it's it's good for them, but it's highly commoditizable. Right? Anybody can build that thing. So we obsess about the user experience at that at that layer. But then beyond that, what we've been seeing is we initially gave the developers the ability to just build their own metrics as well and score their agents. And what we saw was developers","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":53,"time":"20:13","seconds":1213,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"struggled with that because they kind of had an idea about like, hey, need to see if it's planned this thing out well enough. But then in order to build that metric, they almost had to build a very complex prompt. They had to figure out the instructions. They had to figure out how do you optimize this. Do I use a GPT-four model for this, something else? So that's the layer where we basically realized that, wait, this is actually ripe for a lot of research. So we have a fairly large staff of AI researchers that are constantly working on, we call our LUNA evaluation metrics,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":54,"time":"20:43","seconds":1243,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"where it's not just the prompt instructions and things of that nature, but we also focus a lot on how can we optimize the cost and latency of these different metrics. So what does this mean for the user? What this means is I've built my agent and I've built I'm building my agent. You could just use Galileo's TypeScript SDK or JavaScript SDK to be able to start logging your application. And then on the other side, without any ground truth being needed, you basically magically see not just the visualization layer, but you also start to see two things. One, you'll see these very, very highly explainable metrics show up with an explanation for exactly what went wrong and why. The second thing that you see are automatic insights as well, which are fairly easy to understand. Because what we want to do essentially as a developer, what they want as well, is I just am trying to build this agent out. I cobbled together a few things. I'm trying to run a quick experiment.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":55,"time":"21:34","seconds":1294,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Which part, this complex compound system, should I focus on? Should I focus on this API, that one, the prompt, or something else? And so we basically dumb it all down for them as much as we can can and tell them, you know, we've gone we have all your logs. We also have these metrics that we've built out based on all of this. Here's what we think you should do. So it's almost like a co pilot for your AI application development. That's the journey we wanna go with them on as they're going from, like, building towards scaling.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":56,"time":"22:02","seconds":1322,"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","text":"That's very fascinating to me because I when someone's going to look at all of these different variables, what Galileo is doing is it's helping you isolate those variables and find the ones that are going to have the biggest impact for you to focus on, which kind of resonates with like the whole top line objective of folks having to, or being in a position where they are experimenting with AI or building workflows as they're trying to evaluate and justify","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":57,"time":"22:25","seconds":1345,"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","text":"where they should be spending their time because it's moving so quickly that their time always needs to be spent on the most impactful part of the project or anything else you're working on is likely just adding risk to the project because you're doing things that are probably going be outdated by the time they're really in practice or really in use. Yep. And and that requires like a whole mental, I think, flip about how we build","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":58,"time":"22:47","seconds":1367,"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","text":"and how we look at them. So it helps you isolate the variables and and make those tools a little more natural to develop in a in a classical way where you can evaluate and understand. Yep.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":59,"time":"22:58","seconds":1378,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Yep. No. I agree with you. That's exactly right.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":60,"time":"23:00","seconds":1380,"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","text":"And when someone is is maybe building and managing a bunch of these AI bots or tools or workflows, you know, are you seeing that it's like people are like almost like doing performance evaluations","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":61,"time":"23:12","seconds":1392,"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","text":"on their agents? Like maybe like how somebody would do for- maybe someone's getting ramped up right as a BDR or as a customer success manager and there's, you know, basic tenets that you want them to do across the board, and you're evaluating their interactions with customers or whatnot, and because you understand what is good and what is bad in the environment of your company's culture. Are you seeing that that's how people are using and evolving evolving","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":62,"time":"23:35","seconds":1415,"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","text":"as they build these tools? Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":63,"time":"23:36","seconds":1416,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"It's similar. It's very similar because to take your example for a second, like you let's say you hire an SDR. The SDR is mostly focused on outbounding, and then you've got to see the quality of their outbound, who they outbounded to, what the result of that was, did they book a call or not, and all sorts of stuff. There's an entire funnel there. Imagine all of that's being done by an AI agent.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":64,"time":"24:00","seconds":1440,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"That AI agent's basically gonna have to call, do a bunch of different kinds of API calls to make sure all of that happens. And now the question becomes great. If it's an AI agent that's not sleeping at night, then how do I make sure that there's some sense of potential failure modes that can happen? You you would probably do this with the SDR as well, the human SDR, where you'd probably wanna have, like, some kind of inspection. Right? You have an expectation setting. I want you to book 10 calls this week. That's my expectation. And then with the human have some level of inspection around,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":65,"time":"24:29","seconds":1469,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"great. Like, how many outbound calls do you do today? And then I'm gonna start to look at a funnel. It's similar. You you come up with that mental model of what those potential failure modes would be as the person who's building the app, and then you have to build out the guardrails accordingly. And then what happens is as you go through the motion of interacting with that human SDR or the agent or the AI agent, you start to figure out more failure modes because you go deeper and deeper and deeper. You're like, oh, shit. This can go wrong. That can go wrong. And then on the fly, you're gonna have to create more evals and more metrics, and you also start generating more data","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":66,"time":"25:03","seconds":1503,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"around, like, ah, you know, like, when it's when it's trying to reach out to this specific kind of person with this specific queue, that's when it's failing. So maybe I should isolate this data a little bit. That's when you start to create, like, this this dataset that you wanna test against and these metrics. So that's the flow that people have been going down of, like, exploring and creating these models and making it part of their process.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":67,"time":"25:24","seconds":1524,"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","text":"What really stands out to me about that is it can get very complex, and it sounds like a whole new set of skills even.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":68,"time":"25:33","seconds":1533,"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","text":"From your perspective, what do you think is the most powerful habit or skill that an engineer or an engineering leader should be picking up right now to stay ahead of this kind of curve?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":69,"time":"25:43","seconds":1543,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"They have to build. I think the best engineering leaders that I've seen, they're doing two things right now. They're building. They're keeping themselves upskilled. I think everyone has to do that. I certainly do that all the time. Everyone has to do that. And if you're expecting your team to build out these kinds of AI apps, you have to get very, very familiar with it. That's one very large part of it. And the second piece is just being in touch with the community, like learning from each other. Cause I've noticed that organizations that are moving really fast are the ones where they have eng leaders who are also talking to other eng leaders about what they have learned really, really quickly, because everything's moving so quickly. You can't wait to make those mistakes yourselves.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":70,"time":"26:22","seconds":1582,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Right? So I'm seeing folks where there's like a good cross pollination amongst leaders that they're moving much, much faster. It could be that, you know, an engineer might tell somebody else that, Hey, you should get Galileo because without evals, it's gonna be really bad. And the other one's gonna probably learn that the hard way. It has happened with a lot of engineering leaders before.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":71,"time":"26:39","seconds":1599,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"So I feel like those two things are very, very important. Keep being at the forefront of learning by doing because you're an engineering leader. Test off those skills and you can actually build simple apps on the side. And the second one is just being a big part of the community somehow, being in touch.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":72,"time":"26:54","seconds":1614,"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","text":"Build, read, and communicate. Yeah. Three core defining traits.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":73,"time":"27:01","seconds":1621,"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","text":"And Yep. That's really powerful takeaway. For me, what really stands out about that is that people who put in place small incremental changes over time, you know, they get ahead faster and faster. In an incremental world like AI, somebody who's building that tool yesterday is going to be much more ahead of you tomorrow if you didn't build it. So those engineers that are out there building and talking about what they're building and they're reading about what other people are building, those are the ones that are getting ahead and and are staying on the forefront. And I I that's a really great takeaway.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-73","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":74,"time":"27:36","seconds":1656,"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","text":"Vikram, this has been an incredible conversation. There's so much insight packed into what we talked about today. I wanna thank you for sharing and giving our listeners some actionable takeaways. Before we wrap up, where can our audience go to learn more about Galileo and the work that you're doing?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-74","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":75,"time":"27:51","seconds":1671,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Yeah, for sure. So we are at galileo.ai. You can also check us out on LinkedIn and on Twitter.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-75","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":76,"time":"27:59","seconds":1679,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"We post a lot of content on our website. We put that in our blogs and the website. There's an entire research section. Publish our papers and everything else that we've worked on for AI evals. We've been around for four years, so there's a rich history of a large body of work there. So they can check it out there. We're also hiring right now for a lot of engineers","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-76","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":77,"time":"28:18","seconds":1698,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"who have built out their own AI apps. Excited to chat with anybody who's interested in being at the forefront of, helping builders build.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-77","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":78,"time":"28:24","seconds":1704,"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","text":"That's fantastic to hear, and we'll definitely I'll include those notes in the show notes on Substack. So if you listen to this and you're interested in getting involved with Galileo or following up on anything that we talked about today, you know, please be sure to subscribe, share our episode. You've made it this far, and if you check out our substack, there's even more insights from today's discussion.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-78","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted","episode":13,"guid":"ad96ff54-838e-4d35-9c05-4e5a2da8a5b7","episodeTitle":"How Engineering Leaders Can Future-Proof Their AI Strategy | Vikram Chatterji on Dev Interrupted","publishedAt":"2025-03-05","segmentIndex":79,"time":"28:48","seconds":1728,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Thank you everyone for tuning in this week, and a huge thank you to the DevRunrupted team for letting us republish Vikram's interview. Again, make sure you go check out DevRunrupted wherever you get your podcasts. We'll be back next week with an awesome chain of thought interview that we think you'll enjoy. Thanks for tuning in once again, and we'll see you soon.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/13-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development-ft-dev-interrupted/#t-79","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"The line between research and product has never been more blurry. Like, if you're someone who's a researcher, like, you can really transition to, like, building products and, like, creating a lot of value and vice versa. So it was just this, like, really interesting time that we're that we're living in.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:24","seconds":24,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Welcome to the Chain of Thought podcast. I'm your host, Conor Bronsdon. And today, we're joined by Logan Kilpatrick, senior product manager at Google DeepMind. You may know him from his popular LinkedIn or Twitter accounts as well where he opines on AI.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":2,"time":"0:37","seconds":37,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"Logan, welcome to the show. I love that. That's that's a me opining on AI is probably the most apt description of of what I do online, and, I appreciate that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":3,"time":"0:47","seconds":47,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I think it's a perfect framing for this podcast too, because that's what we're doing here. And we're really excited to talk all things Gemini with you. Candidly, our producer is a big fan, as am I, because often it seems like Gemini isn't talked about in the way OpenAI's models often are. It seems that anytime the news latches onto a story about AI or the future of AI,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":4,"time":"1:08","seconds":68,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"the go to is to run a story on ChatGPT with a baked in presumption that ChatGPT is the clear AI leader even when it's not born out in the data. Gemini is incredibly performant and efficient. In fact, we just released Galileo's new agent leaderboard evaluating 17 different AI models for their effectiveness and usage within AI agents, and Gemini models took first, third, and fourth in our analysis.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":5,"time":"1:32","seconds":92,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"But before we dive into all the numbers, let's back up a bit. I'm curious about the role DeepMind played in Gemini's development. Let's talk about the makings of Gemini. What were the core motivations and goals behind the development of Gemini?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":6,"time":"1:45","seconds":105,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"Yeah. This is a great question. I think the like, at the foundation the foundational level, like, Google exists to organize the world's information and make it universally accessible. And if you think about the sort of arc of of Google search and and a lot of that work that Google's been doing, like, it's funny. Like, there's there's some amount of narrative around, like, Google being late to the AI game. If if you actually, like, sit around and and look at the product services that we've had for the last ten years,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":7,"time":"2:12","seconds":132,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"transformers and LLMs and AI has been, like, a deep part of the entire product experience that Google has brought to the world, like, in in sort of the most prominent product experience, which is search. And I think the the teams across Google have learned a ton about this. And historically, like, GDM was doing Google DeepMind was doing a bunch of sort of foundational","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":8,"time":"2:31","seconds":151,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"research into building AGI, doing all these collaborations with Google Brain, etcetera, to Google Research. And I think as sort of the LLM moment started to happen, all those teams came together and said, let's join forces and really sort of build an organization inside of Google that can build the world's best models, deliver them to the world, and then also build product experiences","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":9,"time":"2:52","seconds":172,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"around the models. And that's been the the product experience piece has been the, like, latest addition to this story, but makes perfect sense. The Gemini app moving over from, from being sort of part of, the search organization. And then our product service area, Google AI Studio and the and the Gemini Developer API, also moving over to DeepMind to sort of close in this collaboration.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":10,"time":"3:14","seconds":194,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"I think it's the same sort of goals that we've always had, which is, like, how do we put the best models in the hands of of the world? And I think there's actually a lot of the I was having a conversation with one of the Google Cloud folks in leadership who was previously in academia, and he mentioned something to me which has continued to resonate, which is the line between","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":11,"time":"3:35","seconds":215,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"research and product has never been more blurry. Like, if you're someone who's a researcher, like, you can really transition to, like, building products and, like, creating a lot of value and vice versa. So it was just this, like, really interesting time that we're living in. Absolutely.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":12,"time":"3:49","seconds":229,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And it's particularly an interesting time, not just on the broad front, but on the specific, as I know last week Gemini announced major updates, including additional availability of Gemini two point zero Flash, two point zero Flashlight, and Gemini two point zero Pro to more developers and production uses. Obviously, this is exciting time. Is there anything you wanna highlight around","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":13,"time":"4:12","seconds":252,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"these new public availability of these models? For the last two months, developers have been saying, Hey, we love two point zero Flash. This model is awesome. Let us use it in production. I think we've been saying, Please, wait. Give us a little bit of time to sort of put the finishing touches on it. And I think we did that work now, the model is now fully available for production use with higher rate limits. We also updated some other stuff on the API side.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":14,"time":"4:33","seconds":273,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"And Flashlight is really a continuation of this sort of story that we've been building with developers, which is trying to remove the economic burden for people who want to put AI into production or in front of their users. And so we kept the same price point that we had with 1.5 flash, with two point zero flashlight, and made it so that you could continue to, like, if cost is the barrier for you to build with AI, like, let's not have that continue to be the case and keep the prices low. And then on the pro side, it's how do we push the frontier? How do we push the frontier of coding and agents and a bunch of the new use cases which people care a lot about? And I think those two are really where you start to see the value of the pro model. I think for a lot of, for like most stuff, you know, two point o flash is gonna be really great. It's fully multimodal,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":15,"time":"5:19","seconds":319,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"etcetera, etcetera. But for coding use cases, the the pro new pro model is a continuation of the Gemini 12 o six model that we released back in December, which developers have been loving and was one of the highest ranked, models for for coding use cases.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":16,"time":"5:34","seconds":334,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I love that you're highlighting these differentations, because in particular, we've been really impressed by how Gemini has performed around agentic use cases. We actually released, today, it should be out as of this episode, the results of Galileo's AI agent leaderboard that I alluded to at the start of the episode. And Gemini stole the show, with two point o Flash topping the charts and performance at a fraction of the cost of other models was the performance champion","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":17,"time":"5:59","seconds":359,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"with 93% score at just around 7¢ per million tokens, and excelled in both complex tasks and in our safety features metrics. It's really impressive, and I'm curious to get your perspective on how Gemini is set up for these agentic use cases.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":18,"time":"6:16","seconds":376,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"Yeah. This is the core part of the two point zero story. So I think the original one point zero Gemini story was, let's build this model to be natively multimodal. The chapter two of the Gemini story is let's build this model to keep doing all the things it does now and do them well, but also build for this agentic era. And I think we're sort of just getting to the point now where the models are good enough, the infrastructure is good enough, there's enough knowledge,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":19,"time":"6:41","seconds":401,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"sort of shared among developers and founders and builders about, like, how to actually build agents where it's the right place at the right time to go and do this. And, specifically, there's a couple of different fronts for agent stuff. Like, one fundamental tool use, I think, is continues to be really important. Chirasta, who's one of my coworkers, drives a bunch of our function calling work streams. And like, this is like top of mind. We're screaming it from the mountaintops internally","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":20,"time":"7:05","seconds":425,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"that like the model needs to be incredibly good at Fungi calling. That is the core enabler of a lot of these agentic workflows. But we've gone, like, a couple of steps beyond that, training the model to sort of first in in a first class way, know when to call specific first party tools right now. And and the two examples of this are search and code execution. So you can start to think about, like, you know, what are some of the fundamental limitations of LLMs?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":21,"time":"7:31","seconds":451,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"You know, they don't have access to updated world knowledge, and there's a lot of things which they make embarrassingly bad mistakes. A lot of them are related to, like, simple problems that, like, you can actually solve with a calculator or by running a little bit of code. And that's where code execution and search come in. And they're, like, really foundational pieces of, like, what you would want this intelligent system to be able to do for you. And the model has now been trained to know, like, hey, this is the type of question which if the developer wants to make it available, they have the option to make some of these, like, first party tools available. And we sort of take care of all the scaffolding work and the abstraction work, and it just kind of, you know, works out of the box for you. And for for search, like, you can use it. You can play around with it for free. It's available for developers. You don't have to sign up for anything paid. And then if you wanna scale to production, you can you can do so. Same thing with code execution. There's, like, no weird pricing story. You don't have to, like, pay per session or anything like that. It's like you just pay for the tokens that are created as you're doing this code execution process. So it should be super simple for folks to to get started and and use both of those.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":22,"time":"8:34","seconds":514,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"There are so many interesting threads we can pull on from what you just mentioned. But I wanna mention one in particular, which is that function support piece and actually making it easy for developers to use. To call back to the data I mentioned, you know, we looked at DeepSeek too, which obviously has kind of taken the world by storm here the last several weeks, and it has really limited function support. It's not as effective for these kind of agentic use cases. You can't really call tools with it. And this is where I see the effort of Gemini and of the Google team to really be specific and to set up developers","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":23,"time":"9:07","seconds":547,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"for everything they wanna do instead of adding these extra steps that you need to take in order to leverage these other reasoning models. Can you discuss some of the specific design choices and maybe technical innovations that went into the creation of Gemini as it's obviously made it so effective for developers to leverage?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":24,"time":"9:25","seconds":565,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"Yeah. I I think a lot of this is maybe even one level abstracted away from, like, the design decisions that the research team has made. I think it comes back to, like, the fundamental goal for the research teams. And I think, like, this was I didn't know this until I sort of came to Google and met with a lot of the folks on our research team. But like the fundamental goal in their mind is like, hey, we're not doing this for a chat application.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":25,"time":"9:50","seconds":590,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"We're not doing this to make Google search really great. Like, we really are trying to build this sort of generic, very broad sense of capabilities that enables everyone to be able to use this. And like developers are actually this like perfect representation of that. You know, if you're in your internal company, you know, Google's a big company and there's lots of different product services. But even at Google, like our internal","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":26,"time":"10:10","seconds":610,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"product areas don't cover all the different things that external developers might be doing. And I think like that mentality trickles down into all of the design decisions that happen. And I think like foundational function calling continues to be this like critical pillar of support that we're pushing on. I think one of the good examples of this is compositional function calling. So this was part of the feedback","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":27,"time":"10:35","seconds":635,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"from developers is, hey, you know, as the model is using tools, pretty simply, like the order in which the tools are called actually matters a lot. And compositional function calling, which is something that came out with two point zero, which we haven't talked a ton about externally, but is available in the API now, lets you sort of describe the sequence and the chain of the the functions. And, like, that is, like, purely to enable developers, like giving developers the control, and that made it into the research roadmap because because developers","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":28,"time":"11:04","seconds":664,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"are top of mind for our research team.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":29,"time":"11:07","seconds":667,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I love that, especially because it aligns to what you said earlier about the blurring line between product development and research here. And this design principle of let's make it easier for developers to use, let's make it efficient for developers to use, is a fantastic one to enable problem solving with Gemini. Can you provide some examples of other ways that your team is enabling developers to build with Gemini?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":30,"time":"11:30","seconds":690,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"It's hard to not find examples of this because we spend our whole everything we do is to enable developers to build with Gemini. I think maybe a couple of fun examples of this that are top of mind is in December, we shipped the multimodal live API, which is this really incredible experience. If folks haven't tried this before, a istudio.google.com/live gets you into this experience where you can sort of show Gemini stuff and share your screen and and text prompt with it and your audio back. This really interesting multimodal experience,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":31,"time":"12:06","seconds":726,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"really showcasing sort of what I think is going to be possible in the near future, which is this like AI co presence with you sort of being able to collaborate with you and see the things that you see. And this is actually one of the big, and I'm curious like how you all think about this from like a leaderboard benchmark perspective in the agents world. But I think one of the big limitations of agents is the models","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":32,"time":"12:31","seconds":751,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"and the sort of agentic software is not able to do the things fundamentally that we're able to do. Like, it can't see and interact in the way that we do, and this leads to, like, having to build a bunch of scaffolding in order to make this possible, and I think this, like, multimodal live version of the world is the version of the world in which you can actually, like, really dramatically simplify the scaffolding that needs to exist to enable agents, and the models can just see here and, like, control the same the same sort of controls that we're able to as humans,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":33,"time":"13:03","seconds":783,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"which I'm excited for for two really quick reasons. One, I think, like, reducing the barrier for developers to actually build stuff, I think, is really important. But two, I think there's like a lot of, you know, people in AI talk about the bitter lesson, which is this story of how the sort of general purpose approach to solving a problem, like oftentimes beats out the like very like","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":34,"time":"13:25","seconds":805,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"specific approach to solving the problem. And it feels like this, like, vision type of workflow is is kind of a a potential example of the better lesson. I guess we'll find out over time whether or not this is true, but it it feels like vision first is going to be a really interesting feature for for AI agents.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":35,"time":"13:43","seconds":823,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I really agree because to me, it's kind of felt like these initial flurry of agents from 2024 were really like async junior digital employees. They can help you with some tasks, but they weren't quite ready for prime time at in-depth levels. And now we're seeing with not only these improved models, but improved understanding of how to approach multimodal, which has even more potential, then obviously these multi agent architectures,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":36,"time":"14:08","seconds":848,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"there's some real problems getting Major workflows are being automated. And it seems like the impact is only continuing to accelerate here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":37,"time":"14:17","seconds":857,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"Yeah, I agree with you. I think it is funny, and I was remarking to someone yesterday about how the narrative flip flop between like AI hitting a wall to like what is very clearly this like dramatic progress, both in the product side and in the research side. And I think this continues back to the thread of just these really blurry lines between like what innovation product or research innovation like enables these use cases to work. And I think that the takeaway for me is you need great models, but like, it actually also takes a long time to build great products. And that's part of, we're all still figuring out as an ecosystem, what are the right product experiences to bring AI to life? I think we're even seeing in the last couple of months this whole text to app explosion,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":38,"time":"15:01","seconds":901,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"which I think is now, I was just literally in the meeting before this, was talking to someone about this and like how it's this new frontier of use cases, which is super exciting.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":39,"time":"15:11","seconds":911,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Seems like there's been this kind of viewpoint, I think, sold from early AI about, oh, AI is gonna be this magic silver bullet. And then we all kind of had a moment where he reckoned with and said, oh, it is really magical in some ways, but there's also infrastructure needs. There's also work we have to do to like set it up for success. And as we build out new capabilities, we continue to find new areas of support we need, new opportunities.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":40,"time":"15:35","seconds":935,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"But a lot of this kind of perspective, I think, particularly in the media and from some critics has been about like, oh, this wall we're hitting was more about, well, we're not seeing the magic. We're not seeing the silver bullet. And really, once you dig into the problem solving piece, you go, this is just part of scaling. This is just part of doing this well. It's just part of actually applying it to production use cases and moving out of research. And honestly, the rapidity with which this has all happened, the velocity at which with which the research and the products are moving,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":41,"time":"16:04","seconds":964,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"is incredible if you zoom out. But it's easy in the moment to get caught up in, doesn't quite work yet,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":42,"time":"16:10","seconds":970,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"or this isn't 100% of the way there, instead of seeing how far it's coming, even just six months. Yeah, I think the narrative is for folks who are sort of close to the action, it's almost funny because if you go and talk to customers, like people who are putting AI into production, like a great example of how early we still are and how much juice there is to be squeezed out is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":43,"time":"16:31","seconds":991,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"could probably, if you went and talked to 10 customers, 10 people who are putting AI in production in front of their users, I bet you at least five out of 10 of those folks would not have a good eval story. And they don't actually even know They've put AI in production. They don't even know what success looks like for the AI that they put into production. Of course we haven't gotten to the product experience, so it's this magic","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":44,"time":"16:54","seconds":1014,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"silver bullet because that takes a lot of work and it takes a lot of, to your point, infrastructure. You have to Historically, maybe there wasn't great eval infrastructure. Maybe there wasn't great, like, ops sort of dashboarding in order to, like, keep track of do AB testing for different prompts. All this sort of infrastructure had to be built, and the ecosystem is running so fast that it is, like","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":45,"time":"17:19","seconds":1039,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"it it's almost like the the road is being built at the top level, and then, like, there is no like, the foundation has to also be built in order to, like, support that. And, like, that's happening in real time, but it's, like, there's some lag for a lot of the stuff. And to really have the successful use cases and the right product experiences, you need to have that foundation. And I think we're","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":46,"time":"17:39","seconds":1059,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"it feels like we're gonna go through this again kind of with this current multimodal agentic situation, which is I think a lot of the scaffolding that was built was around enabling this text heavy sort of your analogy of, like, this, like, junior digital employee. I think there needs to be this new set of scaffolding that enables sort of the next layer of this this agentic workflow, And that's gonna take time. Like, I think if you don't think that's true, like, you should reset your priors because, like, it is going to take time for some of those things to happen.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":47,"time":"18:07","seconds":1087,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Absolutely. And I I'd be remiss if I didn't mention to folks listening that you should check out galileo.ai for eval infrastructure and some of our earlier episodes where we talk a lot more about this. Because I think you've got a great point here, which is there's so much AI infrastructure that needs to be built out still. There's so much that is so new still to all these products we're developing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":48,"time":"18:26","seconds":1106,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And multimodal capabilities are particularly an example of this, where we're just starting to scratch the surface here. How are you thinking about multimodal capabilities and how they could be leveraged in real world applications moving forward?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":49,"time":"18:40","seconds":1120,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"Yeah, this has been a core part of my thesis for a long time about what the future is going to look like, which is that if you look around, basically multimodal AI is not in production at this point. Like, there is very little successful deployments. Like, there's a lot of successful text deployments at this point that's happening. I think we're starting to see sort of the inklings of some of these early multimodal use cases, but that is it's going to fundamentally change a lot of the way that the world works, partially because","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":50,"time":"19:10","seconds":1150,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"previous if you think about, like, what was the flow that had to exist, it was and I actually used to be, like, a machine learning engineer doing training computer vision models, and, I lived this in my life as a machine learning engineer, which is the amount of time it would take to solve one of these, like, domain specific computer vision problems was on the order of nine to twelve months in a successful case. Like, you had to you had to go and collect all the data. You had to train the model end to end. You had to put that thing in production. You had to, like, build all this infrastructure","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":51,"time":"19:38","seconds":1178,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"to make sure, like, how is it fault tolerant and reliable and all this stuff. And I have to imagine I I reflect on my personal career and journey every once in a while, and I have to imagine that if you if I could go back in and drop, like, a vision language model or the multimodal capabilities of one of these models into my hands just literally five years ago, it would have been like, this is alien technology. Like, it would have been the craziest thing in the world because it would have just solved those problems right out of the box. Like, the models can do image segmentation now, and they can do bounding boxes and object detection. It's like all of the domain specific computer vision problems","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":52,"time":"20:17","seconds":1217,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"just work from these models today, not even including, like, fine tuning for a bunch of these use cases to, like, take them to the the reliability degree that you need. And I I think the the thread of this that gets me excited is who who is this stopping from putting, like, really interesting vision use cases into production? It was, like, the early stage founders who had some crazy or, like, the business owner who has some crazy idea who, like, can't do that thing because they don't have a bunch of, like, ML PhDs who can go and train models for them from scratch. And, like, now those folks can literally just string up","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":53,"time":"20:51","seconds":1251,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"an LLM API and put whatever it is that the use case that they want and and bring that thing to life. And that gets me so excited for the world. And I think that's the promise of this technology, like actually coming to fruition of sort of democratizing access to be able to build some of these things.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":54,"time":"21:06","seconds":1266,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Logan, I'd love to talk more about how Gemini is going to differentiate itself from other LLMs in the market. What's the approach that the development team is taking to not just enable developers, but differentiate from these other solutions?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":55,"time":"21:22","seconds":1282,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"Yeah, this is this is an interesting thread to pull on. I think we've I think there's two sides of this coin. Like, one, sort of foundationally in some cases, like, we let research guide what's going to happen. And and in that context, it's like, you know, the researchers are close to this magic. Let's have them continue to do research and then, like, find out how to bring whatever that capability that's being unlocked by research to the outside world. And then on the other hand of the coin, it's like, hey. We know developers need this thing. Let's go and figure out how to make that happen. And and perhaps, like, a good example of the latter is long context. Like, we sort of the Gemini team knew, like, hey. This is a capability that would matter a lot. Let's go figure out how to make the algorithmic progress in order to enable long context and then, like, the infrastructure work in order to make that actually work at scale in production.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":56,"time":"22:10","seconds":1330,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"And it's, I mean, it's been one of the biggest differentiators for Gemini. It's like Gemini has this long context window. We also have had this, you know, we were the first to ship native search. We were the first to ship caching. We were the first to have a native multimodal LLM that could take in video, images, audio. Hopefully, we'll be the the first folks to actually have the the capability generally available to output audio and images as well, is sort of the the sort of rounding out of that native multimodality","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":57,"time":"22:41","seconds":1361,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"story, which I'm really excited about. The other piece of this is you get a bunch of really interesting because of, and this is like a thing that I, is is one of the the many benefits of of Google and the breadth that Google has, which is as all the the different parts of Google go and deploy these models into production, there's, like, really bespoke constraints.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":58,"time":"23:03","seconds":1383,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"Like, a an example of this is, you know, search has, you know, it has like, one of the reasons that made Google search so successful initially was, like, the speed at which you could get results back. And I think, like, there are these core design constraints that all of the different parts of Google have, and you end up with really interesting approaches to how to solve some of these problems,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":59,"time":"23:23","seconds":1403,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"whether that's like a we make a smaller model or whether that's, you know, caching, etcetera, etcetera, as you sort of look at all these different constraints. So I think there's this strong partnership between research and all the all the product areas inside of Google as we as we think about, like, what are the right models and the right sort of architecture decisions to make as we bring these models to the world.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":60,"time":"23:44","seconds":1424,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It also seems like there's an underrated part of the story that I don't even hear Google talking about as much as maybe I expect, which is that Google has a multi year advantage as far as experience with aligning their hardware and custom silicon to their models. What do you see this providing Gemini and enabling going forward?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":61,"time":"24:04","seconds":1444,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"Yeah, this is a great, exciting thread. I think it's something that just like kind of makes sense to me. I mean, I'm not a hardware expert. I think I'm a beneficiary because I love the Gemini models and because we work on bringing them to the world of the custom silicon that we have. It's really like the two things are hand in hand. Gemini is optimized for this experience of running on on the TPUs that we have, the tensor processing units,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":62,"time":"24:30","seconds":1470,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"and as this sort of innovation keeps happening on the TPU side, it it enables the models to be faster, better, cheaper, all this stuff. Like, you know, what why are we able to bring models to the world at the price point that we're able to? It's because we actually have control of the hardware too, and the cost basis is sort of included in part of that process, which really is a great advantage for us, but also the beneficiaries","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":63,"time":"24:54","seconds":1494,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"of the advantage is the developer community, which I love. It's such an awesome outcome for the world that this cost saving is passed on to developers and enables the external world to actually benefit from this.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":64,"time":"25:06","seconds":1506,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Absolutely, and I mean, going back to our data again here, when we looked at these 17 models, Gemini was not only at the very top as far as performance, but also very close to the top end cost as far as being the cheapest. And like, this just enables you to solve harder problems without the incredible spending that sometimes it would take otherwise. And I just feel like it's such an underrated part of the story. Like you alluded to long context earlier. My understanding from reading","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":65,"time":"25:34","seconds":1534,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Google's announcements here is that long context has really been enabled by the incredible silicon advantage you have here with the custom chips. Is that correct?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":66,"time":"25:46","seconds":1546,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"Yeah, I think So there's a bunch of research breakthroughs that enabled long context on the algorithmic side. But I think the only reason we're able to put long context into production, like at the scale that it is, is because of TPUs. I think the TPU story and without getting into all the details, like it is just as much a algorithmic breakthrough story as it is like an infrastructure breakthrough story. The fact that long context is able to work all the way up to 2,000,000","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":67,"time":"26:13","seconds":1573,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"tokens with the Pro series and model. So I'm excited to keep seeing this thread play out over time, which is like, we'll get longer context. And I think this can inform the decisions that we make as far as what hardware to build. Like, hey, we want 10,000,000 token context or 100,000,000 token context. How do we do that? Like, maybe there's a hardware story to look into there. Oh, man. I wish we had two hours for this conversation. I'm gonna have to have you recommend someone from the the hardware research side because I I think it would be great to dive deeper on this topic. I know we wanna focus this conversation","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":68,"time":"26:44","seconds":1604,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"around what's happening with Gemini, around enabling developers. And one of the really interesting things that you kind of alluded to earlier is that Gemini often has been ahead of the game as far as its competitors with getting different features out in research, and yet it's not talked about as much. Of this is marketing. Some of this is maybe there wasn't a complete feature set for this. One example that I think is really interesting that I have to give credit to our producer Adam for highlighting is deep research, where Gemini has had a deep research capacity","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":69,"time":"27:21","seconds":1641,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"for weeks, months now. And, you know, depending when you listen to this back episode, maybe it's years when you listen to And yet it was OpenAI's announcement of the same features with the same name that seems to have generated all this buzz in the last week or so. And not to say that's not a cool product, I'm also a fan of what OpenAI is doing. But it does seem like there is this","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":70,"time":"27:47","seconds":1667,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"almost hesitation in the ecosystem to talk about some of the really incredible stuff that Google is doing. I'd love to understand how you see deep research enabling more agentic workflows or more problem solving for devs, Because it it seems like such an interesting tool.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":71,"time":"28:02","seconds":1682,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"Yeah. No. It it and and deep research feels like a a product experience, which, like, Google is very uniquely suited to bring to the world. And just in the last, like, the time of this recording and sort of at the time of release, like, will have now rolled out to all you to to users on on Android and users on iOS, which I'm really excited about. So you can sort of on the go bring,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":72,"time":"28:25","seconds":1705,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"bring deep research with you and and kick off some of those long those long running search queries. It's similar to the story of, like, how we bring search to developers in the API. I think, like, deep research is is such a a product that Google is so uniquely suited to to build and and really starts to push on this thread of like, what is the world going to actually look like in the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":73,"time":"28:52","seconds":1732,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"next like three to five years? The piece that I like deep research through this lens specifically is like this, you know, long running asynchronous experience where you sort of, I don't need to sit around and wait for this thing to happen. I just like sort of get an email or I'm notified via my mobile app push notification that this thing is now done. And you could actually imagine where proactively","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-73","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":74,"time":"29:17","seconds":1757,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"this starts to happen for you in the future where you have Gmail and you're getting maybe an investment pitch or someone saying, Hey, let's go on a trip somewhere. And then deep research is behind the scenes. It's like, Hey, let me actually just be proactive here and compile a bunch of information for you so that you can make an informed decision. And in many cases, maybe you ignore all that because you're like, Yeah,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-74","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":75,"time":"29:39","seconds":1779,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"I don't have time to read through all this stuff. But for people who want to, I think about girlfriend. We spend a ton of time looking at all the options of everything that we might do, whether it's going to dinner or going on a trip somewhere. And to sort of take away that burden and just like get access to that information, I think is going to be a really, it's going to be such a powerful product experience.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-75","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":76,"time":"30:01","seconds":1801,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"And I also think like the thread around trying to, I think the Gemini app has made a ton of progress in eliminating the time delay between like maybe a model like an experimental model availability and a rollout into the Gemini app. I think they've made a ton of strides there. And like even this week, when we rolled out with Pro and Flashlight and the two point o flash model, they actually shipped the two point o flash model,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-76","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":77,"time":"30:26","seconds":1826,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"before we did and then rolled out the two point o pro model at the same time that we did. So I think getting the models out to everyone as soon as possible is is super critical And the the sort of feature set as well as far as, like, deep research and other things, getting that out to more users as soon as possible, I think, is gonna be is gonna be awesome. And and also actually seeing the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-77","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":78,"time":"30:46","seconds":1846,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"the deep research experience benefit from our latest models. Like we have two point zero Flash and two point zero Pro Experimental in our reasoning model. And seeing what that experience looks like with those three models is going to be truly awesome. I absolutely think this integration story with other Google products is a really exciting one for Gemini,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-78","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":79,"time":"31:04","seconds":1864,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"both with everything that's happened with the Google Suite, and I have to give major credit to, I think both Google and Microsoft for how they're thinking through integrations with the G Suite products and Microsoft case with their Office products. Like there's a clear story here for like, we're just going to help you do everything you're doing better. But where I see Google really differentiating is, hey, look, we also have this incredible","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-79","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":80,"time":"31:26","seconds":1886,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"hardware opportunity with our mobile devices, with Pixel, with Android. Talk to me a bit about what's coming or kind of the vision for the future with Gemini on mobile.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-80","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":81,"time":"31:37","seconds":1897,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"Yeah. I I think my mind was initially blown on this. Back at Google IO, I got my hands on one of the Pixel devices that was running the Astra build and getting to, like, spend I spent, like, the better part of a few hours, like, going around and trying a bunch of different use cases and demos and stuff like that, just in, like, normal ways. I actually tweeted out this video of trying that Astra experience","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-81","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":82,"time":"32:02","seconds":1922,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"natively on Pixel using one of those really confusing espresso machines. Every time I walk by one of those an office or somewhere, I'm like, There's no shot that I'm gonna try to This use is like foreign space technology is what it looks like to me. And I was literally live going through this experience of showing the the Astra experience. Like, how do I actually do this? And it was giving me step by step instructions,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-82","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":83,"time":"32:29","seconds":1949,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"and I actually did make the coffee successfully, and now I know how to do this. So it was, like, this really cool experience of something really simple, you start to think about, like, what are the the hardware implications of this? And, again, like, I'm not in the hardware space, and I'm not in the Pixel team, but I'm excited about, like, the models actually becoming available and, like, the entire experience living on your phone and, like, doing it in a way that's that's private and secure makes a ton of sense. And, like, oh, the the same innovation that enables our large Gemini models is the same innovation that ends up enabling both the open source Gemma models, but also Gemini Nano, our smallest model,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-83","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":84,"time":"33:06","seconds":1986,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"that works on device. So there's this really great trickle of research, into the hardware products as well.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-84","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":85,"time":"33:12","seconds":1992,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Fantastic stuff. And I I also think it's exciting to see what's happening with G Suite. And it's been interesting for me as someone who I hope I can be honest with you here. I was mostly using Claude and ChatGPT until Gemini rolled into the G Suite migration. Now I'm finding myself using Gemini way more. It's really exposed me in a way to some of the fantastic stuff that Google is doing with a lot of your models. And obviously now with our research here, I'm kind of going, oh, okay, I need to be using this for agents more. It seems like there's this major opportunity to have,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-85","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":86,"time":"33:44","seconds":2024,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I'll call it Gemini awareness, expand not only across developers, but across the entire range of folks worldwide who are using all these G Suite products, whether for school, for work, or otherwise.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-86","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":87,"time":"33:56","seconds":2036,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"Yeah, I agree with you. And I think like the core of this is we have to earn it by building a great product experience, by building a great model experience. And I think the last few months has been this incredible amount of momentum progress that we've made. And I think on the model side, the models are the best they've ever been. We have the strongest offering of Gemini models that we ever have. I think the product story is is becoming extremely compelling well across","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-87","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":88,"time":"34:23","seconds":2063,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"the whole suite of of Google's offering which is just yeah. It gets me excited. And like, again, at the end of the day, it's like remove friction from users, enable people to get more work done, make sure that they don't do the things they don't wanna do. It's like, this is just such a it's such a win for for folks and to be able to do more stuff, I I get jazzed about it. Absolutely. I I think it's really cool to see the opportunities to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-88","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":89,"time":"34:49","seconds":2089,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"find time for more creative or deep work tasks when you can offload some things to an AI agent or, you know, AI integration to help you through this. And it it's just a really exciting future where not only developers, but normal everyday folks are gonna be enabled to just solve more problems, with some of these Gemini integrations. And it's really cool to see this vision coming to fruition here. And I, for one, am really excited to see how","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-89","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":90,"time":"35:17","seconds":2117,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"you and your teams at Google continue to roll this out and kind of what the future looks like. Is there anything you wanna share for us as far as kind of a cap or this conversation about, in your mind, what that future should look like for developers? What should they be thinking about as they start to interact with Gemini, try out these new models, and really push the boundaries if it's possible?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-90","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":91,"time":"35:41","seconds":2141,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"Yeah, a couple of things. One, on the cost side, I think the big challenge with the age of AI is builders are economically disincentivized from building with AI. Like, the more AI you add into a product experience, the higher your cost is, the lower your margins end up being, etcetera, etcetera. And that's why the cost piece really matters. And I think the future is going to look a lot like probably,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-91","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":92,"time":"36:06","seconds":2166,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"you know, in the near term, probably 100 to 1000x more inference compute that's happening as agents themselves start to actually be the ones who are Like right now, there's almost this one to one with a couple of exceptions, this one to one correlation between a human using some input device and AI inference or tokens being generated. And you imagine the future where that's actually not the case. I have an entire team of agents across all these domains that are helping me live my life and do the things that I do more effectively.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-92","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":93,"time":"36:41","seconds":2201,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"In that world, the only way that that world ends up being possible is with models that are at the cost of the Gemini two point zero flash models. Like, I think it's just really difficult to imagine the the products are gonna be really expensive if that's not the case. And, like, I think the the the world needs the products to be actually reachable by most people if the value is going to be there. I'm happy that that's the direction that we've been pushing in that we're gonna continue to push in. And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-93","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":94,"time":"37:08","seconds":2228,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"I think the second piece of this, which I'm excited about, and we don't have, yeah, we don't we don't have anything in this space yet, but is like a direction that I'm really I'm jazzed about is around memory. I think there's a lot of stuff around the right product experience for these agent workflows or these different tools is like, again, when you go into the G Suite and you're in Google Docs, like, I want the model to know, like, when I kick open a blank Google Doc, I was just, you know, pinging people about this context of the doc that I'm gonna write and like, you know, maybe the framing","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-94","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":95,"time":"37:42","seconds":2262,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"of why this is a problem that I wanna try to And like all that context needs to be captured and brought with me, not just in the sort of domain of the Google products, but everywhere I go. Everyone should be using tons of different tools, and as I go to other tools, I want those things to have the context that I had as I was just building stuff. And I think that world is not going to happen","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-95","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":96,"time":"38:06","seconds":2286,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"instantaneously, but it is the future that we're going towards. Yes. And again, you think about, like, the agents themselves. I don't want some generic agent that, like, has knows nothing about me and, like, doesn't actually have any of context, solving problems on my behalf. And this is actually partially why it doesn't work today because people are The agents themselves are like, You have this task. You know nothing about who you're doing this task for. You're sort of just this invisible","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-96","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":97,"time":"38:33","seconds":2313,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"force behind the scenes. And really, for those tasks to be solved in the way that I think makes users happy, there has to be that level of context. There has to be that level of understanding of the user. And this memory piece, just like humans, where the things that aren't helpful kind of get deprioritized but are still somewhat accessible in certain contexts. And the stuff that's relevant is sort of baked in and helps the model get better over time and the experience get better is just such a cool future.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-97","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":98,"time":"39:02","seconds":2342,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It's a really exciting future. And Logan, thank you so much for coming on the show to talk about it and share this vision for Gemini. It was a pleasure to have you with us today. Thanks so much. Yeah. This was a ton of fun. Thank you for having me. Where can folks who are listening go to learn more about your work and the work you're doing at DeepMind and with Gemini?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-98","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":99,"time":"39:20","seconds":2360,"speaker":"Logan Kilpatrick","text":"Yeah. If you wanna try out Gemini, if you're if you're sort of in the consumer world, gemini.google.com. If you're a developer, you can go to aistudio.google.com.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-99","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":100,"time":"39:31","seconds":2371,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I'm on Twitter. I'm on LinkedIn. You can email me. I email all the time. So whatever is easiest, always happy to help on Gemini stuff. Fantastic. We're gonna link all of that in the show notes. Thank you so much for listening everyone. And thank you again, Logan, for coming on. You can find the new AI agent leaderboard we discussed linked in the show notes or live on galileo.ai.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-100","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":101,"time":"39:49","seconds":2389,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And if you are checking out the show notes, go ahead and hit that subscribe button. Whatever platform you're on, you know, we'd love to have you listening every week. It helps us bring more incredible guests like Logan on the show. And maybe we'll have someone on from the Google research side come sometime soon. So stay tuned for that. And don't forget to check out our Galileo YouTube channel for full episodes,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-101","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr","episode":12,"guid":"e8078d62-00b1-4d31-86c6-8c32bdcdef51","episodeTitle":"The Making of Gemini 2.0: DeepMind's Approach to AI Development and Deployment | Logan Kilpatrick","publishedAt":"2025-02-12","segmentIndex":102,"time":"40:09","seconds":2409,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"clips of our favorite moments from each guest, webinars, and so much more, like recordings from our events like Productionize. We will see you next week. Thank you so much, Logan. Thank you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/12-the-making-of-gemini-2-0-deepminds-approach-to-ai-development-and-deployment-logan-kilpatr/#t-102","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"We've heard Satya Nadella and others talking about the death of SaaS and agents as a service. I guess you'd call that ASS, but maybe that's not my the right acronym for us to be using. We are back on Chain of Thought. I'm Conor Bronsdon, head of developer awareness at Galileo. And joining me today is Galileo CTO, Atin Durio Sanyal. Atin, great to have you back on the podcast.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:30","seconds":30,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Hey, Conor. Yeah. It's great to be back here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":2,"time":"0:32","seconds":32,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Absolutely. You always add invaluable insights in every episode you're able to appear on, so this should be a lot of fun, especially as we have a lot to dig into. There's so much happening in AI right now between DeepSeek and Alibaba's new models, our own agentic evaluations, so many capabilities around agents with, you know, Goose and Operator and all these different systems.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":3,"time":"0:52","seconds":52,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So, yeah, you're the perfect person to have on here to dive into more about what developers and engineering leaders need to be paying attention to around AI today, especially when we have so much incredible AI news happening. This last week has been a firestorm. The story that really lit the AI world on fire was obviously DeepSeek, and the launch of their new r one and r one zero models","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":4,"time":"1:14","seconds":74,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"led to massive conversations, some of which I think is spot on and we'll discuss and some of which maybe is a little far flung. And they obviously made it to the number one spot in the App Store, but that wasn't the only piece of the conversation. It wasn't only limited to model efficiency or scaling. Export controls started to become a topic of conversation once again and much more as the potential end of USAI dominance","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":5,"time":"1:41","seconds":101,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"was a key topic of discussion. And this was followed rapidly about a week later by fellow Chinese tech company Alibaba dropping their QUEN 2.5 model, which they claim outpaces Deep six R1. There's so much we could talk about here. There's agents and the movement happening there with, you know, multi agentic systems. But, Adan, let's just start by kind of laying some groundwork and saying, what's your take on the massive reaction, especially in the markets,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":6,"time":"2:08","seconds":128,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"to these new models?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":7,"time":"2:09","seconds":129,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"I think my take is it's not surprising in the sense that we all expected open source and, you know, work that's going on outside the big tech of AI to eventually take center stage. This is kind of basically what's happened. And it is very interesting to see the kind of model that has come out of DeepSeek. There's three specific models that have come out, the R1 in particular,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":8,"time":"2:36","seconds":156,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"I think the techniques that have been used to eventually get to R1, they're not surprising in the sense that there's some secret sauce that no one knows about. They've used the fundamentals of AI and to some degree, they've pretty much used the standard methodologies which have been used to train some of the larger models that have come out from OpenAI and Anthropic and others. But they've made some very interesting innovations","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":9,"time":"3:04","seconds":184,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"to be able to do it at very low cost, which is really good to see. In a way, it's kind of like the secret sauce. Certain secret sauces are out now and they're kind of in the hands of anyone who can sort of, you know, follow that recipe and build a very large model, but also do it rather largely intelligent model, but do it at very low cost. So it's awesome, and I think this will just lead to a further proliferation of great open source models which will come out, and it'll be interesting to see how the industry adopts it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":10,"time":"3:40","seconds":220,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Absolutely agree, particularly around the open source piece. We just had a conversation about open source AI last week focused on agents.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":11,"time":"3:49","seconds":229,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And you have been, I think, very cognizant of this, talking about the opportunity for open source AI in 2025 back during our predictions episodes a month or two back for folks who listen to season one. So kudos to you for already having some of your predictions come true here. As we've seen these open source AI models built off of the work that's already been done with, you know, OpenAI and other models, We're seeing this creation happen in real time. We're seeing open source catch up.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":12,"time":"4:17","seconds":257,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"But to the point of many folks like Daria over at Anthropic, this is also an example of where the scaling law work has already kind of been done by these giants and a lot of the kind of push to get the model to a certain level of intelligence has happened. And now we're seeing the catch up of this cost factor where the cost is rapidly going down to get an amount of inference. I think that's really exciting for the opportunity to have AI involved in a variety of applications.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":13,"time":"4:50","seconds":290,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Do you feel like this unlocks kind of a next layer of AI where it could be, you know, more often being leveraged at a local level or we could see it proliferate more rapidly here?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":14,"time":"5:02","seconds":302,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"I think in context of the whole deep seek moment, I think the one main conclusion or outcome of this is that we are able to leverage certain techniques that have been used in training some of these models,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":15,"time":"5:21","seconds":321,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"particularly distillation and reinforcement learning to a much higher degree in training some of these larger foundation models and that's really the one main outcome of this is that you can train a very big model at like 95% less cost than what it was using some of the erstwhile techniques but the methodology is not anything that's new per se. The the innovation is, I think, in how they've kind of put the, you know, building blocks together.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":16,"time":"5:54","seconds":354,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"So as far as industry usage is concerned, I'm excited to see more proliferation of smarter models, reasoning based models, reinforced learned models come out and people leveraging just the reinforcement learning paradigm to sort of build applications that kind of automatically learn over time as opposed to just relying on, you know, know, some pre trained data beforehand.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":17,"time":"6:23","seconds":383,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"So there'll be some tweaks and changes to, I think, for the for the better at the application layer, fundamentally, I think there'll be an availability of equally good reasoning based models for much cheaper. And at some point, I think in the next, you know, twelve to eighteen months, someone should be able to train a similar model just on their laptop. In fact,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":18,"time":"6:46","seconds":406,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"I already heard there's a couple of these cheaper models that have come out on top of DeepSeek who have further optimized it. There was one launch from a lab at Berkeley. A few students created something for what I heard was $500 but this is just the beginning of a pattern that I'm seeing where know foundational models will be trained at cheaper and cheaper cost","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":19,"time":"7:10","seconds":430,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"and some of the toolscape will certainly change to be more reinforcement learning and distillation oriented which are some of the new discoveries if you will or pieces of knowledge that has come out that there's still a need for a large base model. Like if you do, go deeper into, you know, how DeepSeek really did it, there's still a very large base model which was the v three base and that was trained it's a very large foundation model that was trained on 15,000,000,000,000 tokens.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":20,"time":"7:42","seconds":462,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"So in some ways it's not a surprise like it's not a shape shifting moment in the sense that you know something that we did not know about AI has happened and it's just that there's some nuances in in the changes that have been brought into kind of the instruction tuning preference tuning paradigm which was largely believed to be the you know sort of the recipe for creating smart models like O1 and the GPD models.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":21,"time":"8:09","seconds":489,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"They have kind of used reinforcement learning to make equally smart models at very very low fine need for fine tuned data which is kind of the biggest impediment in training these models. One of the intermediate models that was created was actually used to generate chain of thought data. So they were using techniques that we also use like as an evaluations and observability company. We certainly rely","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":22,"time":"8:34","seconds":514,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"techniques like chain of thought. Of course, the name of the podcast is the same. So that term is not going away. In fact, now it's more about how you can use reasoning to auto generate step by step thinking data, which is more for reasoning based tasks and which is what DeepSeek did and that was what was different from some of the GPT models the way they were trained. And it's exorbitantly costly to label this kind of data and,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":23,"time":"9:02","seconds":542,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"course, there's labeling platforms that help, but it's a very time consuming process. And you can use these kind of generative models to generate, you know, high quality reasoning data, which eventually leads to high quality reasoning models.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":24,"time":"9:16","seconds":556,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. There's no question that DeepSeek has done some incredible stuff around efficiency and model training efficiency in particular.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":25,"time":"9:24","seconds":564,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"But in a lot of ways, this is an example of the shifting cost curve for models where as models are kind of catching up to breakout models, it costs a lot less to train them. We have these efficiency gains that regular are coming up. Whereas it feels like a lot of the hot takes around this were, oh, this is a complete paradigm shift. This is a total breakthrough.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":26,"time":"9:46","seconds":586,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I I'm not trying to discredit the work Deepsea's done. It's it's really fantastic work, but it it does feel like this is a situation where certain folks have seized on it in the media and in online circles and have maybe added their own narratives to what is actually happening.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":27,"time":"10:02","seconds":602,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Well, I fully agree with you. In fact, I would credit companies like DeepSeek to sort of open source these models and these techniques so that it's essentially","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":28,"time":"10:12","seconds":612,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"available to for anyone to use. It's a methodology so there is nothing proprietary that should be about it and anyone should be able to train these models and it's all about efficiency right like we're all aiming towards more and more efficient ways not only to train these models but also to use them and you know build cost effective ways to scale Gen AI applications so we're all kind of solving the same sort of problem they just did it at the foundational model layer and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":29,"time":"10:41","seconds":641,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"that's just how open source should work and that's how the AI community should be, right? The people are, you know, taking this to various political levels and all this is to say that the recipe is out there and there will be constant innovation around the world I would say not only in China or The United States but any developer sitting anywhere can sort of employ this and use this in their Gen AI systems, and that's what's exciting to me.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":30,"time":"11:09","seconds":669,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Are there any particular learnings that you're taking from what DeepSeek and Alibaba have done where you're saying, oh, these are the things I'm particularly paying attention to?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":31,"time":"11:19","seconds":679,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"I think the main thing that came out of my understanding of all that has transpired in the last two weeks or so is really","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":32,"time":"11:28","seconds":688,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"there's many sort of pieces of the puzzle that you can kind of stitch together to build something that's generalizable and that's smart. In this case they of course used reinforcement learning was one of their main ingredients along with the chain of thought and distillation. So for me it was just exciting to see that hey we know all of these techniques exist and they've been employed in some form or another in the last two to three years to produce very smart models","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":33,"time":"12:02","seconds":722,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"and there's always a price you pay. Think the other thing that people are maybe blowing out of proportion is that deep six model is some kind of all knowing all encompassing thing that will solve you know all of gen AI and will render all the other companies useless that's obviously not the case at all in fact these models are it's almost like an experiment that they've done to show how you can get very good quality","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":34,"time":"12:32","seconds":752,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"reasoning based models so the whole topic is around reasoning and you know that makes them not that great at some non reasoning based tasks. And it has been shown right? They have just built something great and published about it and kudos to them for doing that and it's important for us to not misinterpret it for what it is and only focus, I think, that should be on the on the good novel things that have come out of it so that we can sort of take it to the next level or use them even as we are building these, GenAI applications.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":35,"time":"13:05","seconds":785,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Completely agree. There's this massive opportunity for open source to influence positively both the accessibility of AI and models, the utilization, the advancement. And I think this is a great example of we can have this great opportunity to learn from this company that is doing cutting edge research, that has made innovations based off of existing techniques. If we let this competition become only about the competitive nature,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":36,"time":"13:33","seconds":813,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"we will move more slowly, and we'll have negative externalities that come out of this. That said, there is, I think, an important competitive conversation that has started to bubble back up about export controls on NVIDIA chips to China. There were accusations as soon as DeepSeek released r one that, oh, this was trained with all these smuggled chips. When you really got down to it, it looks like, oh, this is trained off of chips that were previously exported before they were banned, or these are trained off of older chips. And this is much more about that change in the curve of","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":37,"time":"14:11","seconds":851,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"the cost curve based off of all these other models kind of paving the way before them. And obviously, these innovations that we're talking about here. How do you think the release of these new models, particularly with another Chinese company and Alibaba falling rapidly behind, impact the case for these export control policies on chips that are obviously a very hot topic now?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":38,"time":"14:34","seconds":874,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"You know, look, I have a pretty simplistic take on","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":39,"time":"14:39","seconds":879,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"at least, you know, the the non technology slash political side of things, these kind of things just stifle innovation. That's just the nature of it. And it's hard to sort of root cause exactly what causes the loss of innovation, but it's such an intricately connected world, right? With you know and one thing you put these kind of curbs and impediments on foundational technology","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":40,"time":"15:08","seconds":908,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"just take the deepseq example, right? Like they have published about a better way to train a foundation model at cheaper cost and that will lead to so many more companies coming out both in China and United States and around the world and you know to to imagine that they wouldn't have resources to be able to publish about it and it you know we all wouldn't even know what we would lose","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":41,"time":"15:33","seconds":933,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"because of these kind of you know policies if you put put them in place. So I think as far as innovation goes, you know, you should leave innovation and technology on one side and keep it separate from political discussions. You know, in some sense, that's what diplomacy should all be about. In the next few years we'll see tremendous benefits of innovation that comes out of universities and industries","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":42,"time":"16:02","seconds":962,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"in all different countries whether it's China, India, countries in Europe, Australia. Everyone's innovating in AI and everyone has it's a symbiotic relationship that we all have. And for The United States, I would think that they're kind of at the forefront of a lot of innovation they've historically been. So it would be a massive penalty that they would sort of impose on themselves by putting these kind of restrictions","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":43,"time":"16:30","seconds":990,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"because as I said, it's very symbiotic and the fact that the open source community is you know so well connected and there's a lot of knowledge sharing and a lot of github repositories with open models it's really great to see and you know that's what can accelerate innovation and, you know, it's such a complicated and intricate system that you you put an impediment on chips, which is at such a foundational level.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":44,"time":"16:56","seconds":1016,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"It will stifle innovation at all layers above.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":45,"time":"16:58","seconds":1018,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. And I think we often don't reckon with those unintended consequences when we focus on the intended ones of, oh, we wanna be ahead here in AI because we view it as this transformational super important technology, which it is. But the challenges it'll cause around the open source community, around global knowledge sharing are are myriad. And I I'm with you. I I worry that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":46,"time":"17:23","seconds":1043,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"the discussions around things like imposing tariffs on chips from Taiwan and, you know, increasing import export controls are really going to distract from the inherent technological benefits. And it's you know, I understand that there's this geopolitical element where, you know, obviously, it's an important technology for, you know, major countries, but I I do worry that we're going to set ourselves back as an industry if we lean too far in that direction.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":47,"time":"17:52","seconds":1072,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Absolutely. I mean, because it's it's never simple cause and effect. Right? Like, it's anything that has to do with something that's global especially like technology and open source technology it's never you know first degree cause and effect and you do this you get that it's never like that there's so much interdependence we have on each other and you know some innovation that happens at Stanford","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":48,"time":"18:14","seconds":1094,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"relies on a paper reference they do from Tsinghua University in China and which references some other university in India. It's all interrelated and there's no no one really knows how the graph really works and it applies to most things right like especially in order for us to move technology forward we need to just get rid of all impediments and, you know, get rid of all","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":49,"time":"18:41","seconds":1121,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"differences, whether at the political level or otherwise, and let let things just flow freely. That's the only way real innovation can happen.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":50,"time":"18:50","seconds":1130,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"We've heard Satya Nadella and others talking about the death of SaaS and agents as a service. I guess you'd call it ASS, but maybe that's not my the right acronym for us to be using. And because of, you know, this conversation around agents, we've seen","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":51,"time":"19:07","seconds":1147,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"agents start to be deployed in a real world context. We've seen agents actually make an impact for customer service. We've seen the whole teams that are are changing how they function because of these new digital employees that are are essentially being added to the team. And Galileo recently announced new agentic evaluations for every company building AI agents or leveraging them. Can you talk a bit about how these new agentic evaluations increase AI agent safety and alignment?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":52,"time":"19:35","seconds":1175,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Absolutely.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":53,"time":"19:37","seconds":1177,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"I think it's one of my favorite topics lately, primarily because we've had the privilege to work with a lot of cutting edge teams who are building pretty advanced agents and for us to be sort of the eval layer for it. A lot of lessons learned but high level I think the distinction between say a non agentic system and agentic system I've realized is that an agentic system there's a bunch of extra components that have come into the mix as opposed to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":54,"time":"20:06","seconds":1206,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"say just a simple call to an LLM which is a question answer response and or even rag with a vector stored thrown in. Agents kind of get a little bit more complicated in terms of there's additional components which are really stitched together as like a directed acyclic graph or a DAG and when you execute it then the nodes of the you know the DAG kind of execute and each node","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":55,"time":"20:29","seconds":1229,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"could represent an LLM call, a call to a function or a tool, could be even be a like a database lookup like a vector store lookup but all in all it's kind of like this end to end system which is doing more than just making LLM calls and trying to actually achieve something or do an action. So I think we kind of started with this definition and aligned with many of our customers. The most intuitive","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":56,"time":"20:56","seconds":1256,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"idea from an evaluation standpoint was that is there a measure of completion that we can surface to the user to essentially guide the user to know if the agent is sort of, you know, on the right track, whether it's a financial chat bot, which is chatting with the user, is the user's goal being you know are we moving towards it so that's kind of one like a notion of task completion or objective achievement was one of the first things.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":57,"time":"21:28","seconds":1288,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Some of the other things that we realized as some of these agentic systems matured that number one there's no one size fits all there's no one metric that can tell you agent quality it really depends on the different components that you have in your agentic system just to be more concrete say you have an agent which is like a financial chatbot advisor, just to take that example. Say you have some, a rag system in there that does vector store lookups.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":58,"time":"21:55","seconds":1315,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Before you make an Alim call, you have a couple of tools that can make maybe a few API calls. What you really want to, you know, sort of be aware of is that one mistake in any part of this workflow can lead to massive, errors downstream. The errors kind of compound. And this is something that we've known just principally in ML that, or machine learning that, you know, one error kind of compounds downstream and to the point when it meets the user, it's such a, it's blown out of proportion and it's hard to root cause. I think those simple same parallels kind of apply to agentic systems where you know say you have an agentic system that does reruns","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":59,"time":"22:37","seconds":1357,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"of calls to LLMs just to fine tune its response and one of the reruns hallucinates. So that one error in you know the intermediate output can lead to completely wrong outputs of the agent and in order to solve that if we realize there's a need for a customization layer on top of a platform like Galileo which allows you to really like almost define from scratch what you really care about. Say as a developer you care about the number of steps that the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":60,"time":"23:13","seconds":1393,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"agent has taken till now you want some kind of real time tracking of that or the number of reruns or recalls that have been made or you just want to do simple embedding similarity from the you know rag lookup to measure rag quality or you know similarity checks. It can be anything so one of the innovations we've done on Galileo to support more complex agentic system is we offer certain out of the box metrics that give you some high level of understanding around task completion and agent advancements, but we literally allow you to do two things. Number one, create","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":61,"time":"23:52","seconds":1432,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"your own agentic metric which you care about, and it can be sort of an LLMS judge based metric, or it could be a function that you've written in Python or Golang or TypeScript, and you register it to the metrics platform and we kind of apply it to the parts of the agents that you deem relevant. And I think it's the combination of this kind of gives you like a set of evaluation","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":62,"time":"24:18","seconds":1458,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"criteria that you want to apply to your agentic system that allows you to kind of high level monitor the health of your agent. And the combination of all this is what has been, I feel, very useful to our customers.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":63,"time":"24:31","seconds":1471,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I think it's really exciting to see both these out of the box opportunities and the customization because we know that every AI application has a potential to be deeply different,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":64,"time":"24:48","seconds":1488,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and we know every agent may have different things that they're trying to achieve. But it's also important to have a framework in place where you can understand from, you know, zero to one, how is the success of this agent, or how is this agent functioning? What's the success metrics here? In in your mind, what are the specific metrics folks should be looking at out of the box before they get into fine tuned specific metrics that they're developing themselves?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":65,"time":"25:14","seconds":1514,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Yeah. I think the standard agentic systems that have, you know, been built at least across the the slew of customers that we have typically involve a few default components. A vector store is certainly one which is kind of become the mainstay of any kind of GenAI system. Then there's the LLMs themselves along with their memory. And then there's a suite of tools that usually folks register","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":66,"time":"25:42","seconds":1542,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"to the agentic system to be able to essentially make it behave in a slightly more deterministic manner. One example I would give you is lot of people have used agents and LLMs to be able to say traverse complex JSON graphs or JSON objects and it can get pretty hairy. A lot of data that can potentially be represented as key value pairs in JSON but then to be able to extract specific keys from the JSON,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":67,"time":"26:12","seconds":1572,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"it's a you can build a fairly simplistic agent that has that employs LLM calls along with memory, but also tools that can help you parse JSON in a more deterministic manner. I thought of an example in my own head based on one of the companies I advise and they essentially represent the world that they operate in as graphs. So there's a lot of tooling that they apply to their agentic systems that allow them to parse graphs in a more deterministic way.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":68,"time":"26:44","seconds":1604,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"So as far as evaluation goes, again, there's the high level notion of whether the agent is proceeding towards the goal because every agentic system has a goal. It's trying to the whole point of agents is that it does stuff rather than just, you know, spew out tokens. So there's always a goal. So there's a high level notion of whether as the either the conversation is happening or the graft reversal is happening is the agent moving towards it. So action advancement and that's certainly something Galileo offers out of the box. We've battle tested it with many customers and then some so we can assure that those kind of default metrics are very high quality. And then there's the customization piece that I was talking about and honestly a lot of customization","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":69,"time":"27:28","seconds":1648,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"we've seen are very simplistic functions. They're not boiling the ocean or some kind of advanced thing that can be built in a lab. They're simple Python functions, you know, that take text input and text output and you want to do basic things like whether a string is present in the blob of text or whether you want to take an action where you want to sort the nodes of a graph in some form, you know have a measure of whether the sorting was correct or not. So very basic things. So these are very little functions which require","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":70,"time":"27:57","seconds":1677,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"little to no compute. You can literally run them on, you know, any kind of server. You don't need GPUs or any sophisticated hardware, but it's really the management layer where a user is allowed to define a metric they care about, register it to the platform, then share it with the rest of the team who are also potentially, you know, contributing to building the agent and then sort of the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":71,"time":"28:24","seconds":1704,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"track lineage because these functions will evolve over time and the management layer becomes critical is what we've seen. If you have a good cohesive management layer around the set of scores or metrics that contribute to agent quality, I think that has gone a much longer way than saying that, hey, I provide three very advanced agentic evaluation metrics that have been built in a lab somewhere.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":72,"time":"28:49","seconds":1729,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Based on these early successes,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":73,"time":"28:53","seconds":1733,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"what are your thoughts on the future of agentic evaluations and how they might evolve alongside advancements in these very same agents' capabilities?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-73","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":74,"time":"29:02","seconds":1742,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"It'll be interesting to see, where agentic evals go primarily from the point of view that number one, models are getting cheaper, they're getting better, they're getting smarter. So, you know, just out of the box, the baseline LLM that you would use would","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-74","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":75,"time":"29:19","seconds":1759,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"potentially behave in a much higher quality output. That might shift the focus on evaluating certain non LLM parts of the system. That's certainly one area where you'll have to essentially provide metrics to be able to measure the ancillary pieces of your agents beyond just the LLMs. And then there's newer tools and newer software components that will come in this","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-75","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":76,"time":"29:48","seconds":1788,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"ever evolving toolscape. Newer orchestration systems, newer libraries. That's why I think a platform play is a lot more sort of adaptive even from an agent eval's perspective because the principle would still hold that you wouldn't need very advanced out of the box metrics that just work that are generalizable. It'll be very interesting to see how much you can sort of take a default metric and sort of make it generalizable","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-76","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":77,"time":"30:18","seconds":1818,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"and have it evolve and adapt to your data. That's certainly something that Galileo has worked a ton on in its metrics platform providing features like continuous learning with human feedback, really incorporating the element of human feedback, which is the other aspect. Like, I don't think there'll there will always be a need for high efficacy human feedback in the loop because","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-77","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":78,"time":"30:42","seconds":1842,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"agentic systems will get more and more complicated as the months roll by. So it's very less likely that evaluation will go down the lane of here's a metric that works everywhere. Rather, what we'll see is that what wins is here's a platform that allows you to create and share and manage your metrics and sort of apply it for your the flavor of the agentic system that you've built and apply it to any part of the system. So those are the things. I think we're moving more towards","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-78","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":79,"time":"31:15","seconds":1875,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"customized sort of platform plays as far as agent evals is concerned and that combined with the fact that models are getting better and the cost of intelligence is reducing. It'll be interesting to see where, you know, where agentic evals sort of fall, you know, say twelve months from now.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-79","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":80,"time":"31:33","seconds":1893,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Absolutely. And for folks who wanna follow along and learn more about how we're thinking through agentic evals, check out galileo.ai.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-80","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":81,"time":"31:41","seconds":1901,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Atin, it was a pleasure to chat with you today. We'll be counting on your continued and valuable advice to help us navigate the hectic AI world in 2025. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. And, yeah, it was a pleasure chatting. And we'll make sure for those listening that everything we talked about today is in the show notes, including the articles we referenced.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-81","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":82,"time":"32:00","seconds":1920,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"You can also find out where to follow Atin there and myself and Galileo. The ways you can stay up to date on all the news happening here, especially as we continue to roll out awesome new features like Identica evaluations for the Galileo platform. Thanks for listening, everyone. And if you're not already watching the show, you can check it out on Galileo's YouTube channel. We'll see you next week.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-82","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight","episode":11,"guid":"158ee3a1-dddf-4534-ba5e-f2694634c17f","episodeTitle":"How DeepSeek Changed the AI Race Overnight","publishedAt":"2025-02-05","segmentIndex":83,"time":"32:30","seconds":1950,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"We've heard Satya Nadella and others talking about the death of SaaS. You know what? Just gonna have to redo it. That's I I can't I I SaaS. I know I can say it. The the the the death of SaaS.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/11-how-deepseek-changed-the-ai-race-overnight/#t-83","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"I don't think AI needs to be closed source all the time. Also, another thing with open source that I always like is that it's almost it's authentic marketing. I was gonna say free marketing, but that doesn't sound rich. It's so free. We can be honest here. It's okay. It's authentic and free marketing where you have people just excited people that are just contributors and they're excited about it. They're talking about it at conferences","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:25","seconds":25,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"because they're getting that chance to feel like they're part of the project. I think that's another benefit, and I'm hoping to see more open source AI.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":2,"time":"0:41","seconds":41,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Welcome back to Chain of Thought, everyone. I'm your host, Conor Bronsdon. Today, we're joined by Roselle Scarlett, a staff developer advocate at Block, where she works on AI and open source. When she's not advocating for developers, Roselle is an advisor at gCodeHouse, an organization aimed at teaching women of color and non binary people of color to code. Roselle, welcome to the show.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:00","seconds":60,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"Hi. Thanks for having me. I'm super excited since I am a workaholic and on parental leave, but I'm like, I still wanna talk on a podcast or or do something. So thanks for having me. Oh, it's it's my delight. I'm excited. I'm hoping we get a guest star appearance later.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":4,"time":"1:16","seconds":76,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Congratulations, by the way, on your new family member. That's very exciting. Thank you. But yeah, great to have you here. Thanks for making time. Thanks. And I know Block has some big announcements around AI coming up, so let's dive into your work there. Yeah. Can you tell us a bit about your role at Block and how you got involved with the AI projects there? Yeah. So, like you mentioned, I'm a staff developer advocate at Block, and I mainly focus on their open source initiatives. So, we actually recently,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":5,"time":"1:43","seconds":103,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"I think probably today, the time I'm recording this is when we announced that like, Block is like getting into open source, or we're focusing some of our tooling on open source, and one of that is our AI initiatives. And how I got involved, I'm gonna say, like, I don't know if this is gonna sound weird, but I think I'm, like, destined to be an AI. Because hear me out. I used to work at GitHub,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":6,"time":"2:06","seconds":126,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"and, like, GitHub had a lot of different products, and I was a junior developer advocate. They're, like, you know, you can, like, try out whatever you want. They just really wanted me to, like, increase my skill set. So I was like trying out GitHub actions or like advocating for those tools. And then GitHub Copilot came out. I felt like I was killing it at that. But then I was like, I want to try out like other technologies beyond coding with AI. I want to see like what else is out there. So I had gone to","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":7,"time":"2:33","seconds":153,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"Block's subsidiary TBD, and I focused on like Web5. It sounds weird, but I was just like, I want to see what emerging technologies are there. I ended up, the company pivoted away from TBD, like Block pivoted away, and they put me back in AI. So I think I'm just like dead skinned for it. That's how I got involved. And think like using AI to code is really exciting and empowering.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":8,"time":"2:59","seconds":179,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"I know some people are not into it, but I think it's cool.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":9,"time":"3:03","seconds":183,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I I do love that AI coding technology has enabled so many more people to build software and to build software faster for many folks who've been doing it for a long time. Yeah. It's an exciting time for sure. And I also think there are some","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":10,"time":"3:19","seconds":199,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"exciting things happening on AI initiatives at Block, as you mentioned. Yeah. Can you tell us a bit more about what's happening there? Yeah. So, we're coming out with an AI agent called Goose, or we started building one. And by the time that this podcast is out, it should be out as well to the broader public. We have this open source AI agent called Block, and basically,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":11,"time":"3:41","seconds":221,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"it's an on machine developer agent enabling you to like automate engineering tasks. So I've used it for a lot of things like prototyping UI tools. Like I've used it to just even get a better understanding of different open source projects. I've there's there's like a lot with it. Just because it's an agent, there's so much cool things you can do, and there's like a lot of extensibility around it as well. Can you give us a bit of an overview of what","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":12,"time":"4:10","seconds":250,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Goose is and what its capabilities are as an AI agent?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":13,"time":"4:14","seconds":254,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"Yeah. Like I said, it's on machine developer agent. You have a we have two different ways that you can leverage it, either through the terminal or you can use it through like an electron app. It has a rust back end, the front end is electron like I just mentioned. And you can really use it for any engineering task really, because there's so much extensibility since it's open source. You can basically say, hey, I want you be able to connect","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":14,"time":"4:40","seconds":280,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"Goose with like my file system or with this or with that. And you'll be able to set up tools for that. It also leverages model context protocol servers. So we collaborated, one of our open source initiatives as well with AI is we collaborated with Anthropic on building out MCPs. So that's incorporated with it as well. It sounds like vague, I guess, with my description.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":15,"time":"5:08","seconds":308,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"It can what it can really do a lot. Like, anything you can imagine you in terms of engineering task, I think you can help it, or you can get it to do that. I've used it to take screenshots and then, like, hey. I wanna develop a site that looks similar to the screenshot that's here. Like, there's just so much.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":16,"time":"5:25","seconds":325,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I don't think it sounds vague. I think it sounds versatile. And to me, that's where I really see the opportunity with AI agents is. Right now, a lot of the early agents we've seen have been semi task specific, where it's like, hey, we're building on robotic process automation, adding some intelligence, but maybe we don't trust them to go out and do all these different broad tasks. So it's really exciting to see companies like Block and other projects out there release agents that have this opportunity to be more versatile to do more. But that's to me the exciting part.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":17,"time":"5:56","seconds":356,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"Yeah. Yeah. I think there's a lot of exciting parts for me as well. I like I always said, like enabling other developers to do things. And then the other day I've been thinking about this, think before I jumped on this podcast with you, when we were planning, I talked about psychological safety for developers, and I know I'm jumping ahead. But I also thought about not just","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":18,"time":"6:18","seconds":378,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"junior developers, but when we talk about developer productivity, I always thought, oh, like, just helping a developer code faster. But, I feel like developers do so many different things. They're not just, like, We're not just these people that are heads down at their computer coding all the time. Some of them like me, now I'm a parent. Some people are open source maintainers. Some people are doing different things. So, when I think of developer productivity,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":19,"time":"6:42","seconds":402,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"it's not necessarily coding faster, but just enabling them to maybe like keep the context when they're constantly switching back and forth and just helping them to still show up at like as a software engineer, but also at whatever other responsibilities they have as their best self. So I think that's also an exciting part of AI and AI agents to me. Absolutely.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":20,"time":"7:04","seconds":424,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I'd love to talk more about how AI is approaching the open source community and blocks initiatives around this. But I let's jump ahead because I think you mentioned this really interesting concept about how you view AI coding tools as contributing to psychological safety, especially for Janu and your developers. Can you elaborate on this concept and how AI can empower developers to feel more confident in their work?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":21,"time":"7:31","seconds":451,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"Yes. I love to. This is one of my favorite topics because a lot of times people are like, oh, AI is gonna, like, replace junior developers or put them out of a job. But I'm like, if I had this when I was a junior developer, this would have made me so much more confident. I think when you're a junior developer, you're a little bit scared to ask questions. You're","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":22,"time":"7:52","seconds":472,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"sometimes you ask a question, you don't even understand the answer. Or even sometimes people like, just Google it. And then I think for me, there's like this added fear or added complexity as a, like, as a minority, because I'm like a black woman. And when I first became a software engineer, was super young and like a black girl there, and I'm like, oh my gosh, I don't wanna ask questions. I don't wanna come across as stupid. But with AI tools, can kind of go back and forth, ask for help. You can gain more confidence in, oh, wait, I didn't even know this method existed.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":23,"time":"8:27","seconds":507,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"You can ask like ChatGPT or Copilot or whatever tool you're using, oh, why did you choose this? Why does this exist? Whatever the case is. So I think that's how it kind of gives them more confidence. It kind of works as like a peer programmer, and you can kinda show up at in your team stronger and more confident. I love that. And,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":24,"time":"8:48","seconds":528,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I'll say for folks who are listening right now, now would be a great time to check out this rest of this episode on YouTube because we do have a guest star appearance. So hop onto our YouTube at Galileo. You can search Chain of Thought podcast on YouTube if you want to check this out and see the full visual spectacle. But let's keep talking about psychological safety here, because with the rise of AI, there are so many considerations for teams,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":25,"time":"9:13","seconds":553,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and it feels like teams need to rethink this concept of building psychological safety through learning. Are there new dimensions you think developers and and engineering teams need to consider compared to traditional software development environments now that AI is being inserted into them? That's a really good question.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":26,"time":"9:32","seconds":572,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"I think so.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":27,"time":"9:34","seconds":574,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I think and when you say dimensions, can you expand on that? Sure. So as you mentioned, there's a lot of folks are now going to AI first, first for search, whether that's an internal search or external, they're maybe, maybe they're onboarding to a new team and they're saying, Hey, here, ingest all this documentation and just these concepts. And now I'm gonna like have an interrogative conversation","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":28,"time":"9:56","seconds":596,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"with this AI versus let me just go read all these docs. Let me kind of go back and forth. Do you think teams need to consider, like, an AI first approach to how they onboard,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":29,"time":"10:08","seconds":608,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"how they enable folks? Yes, definitely. I think so. Because, like you said, people are gonna go to that anyways. So I think thinking about, like, okay, first, security, I know companies are really concerned about like, oh, how are docs being used with AI? But then also, kind of giving like a short training to developers on how to use AI to be able to onboard into their products. I know sometimes people get frustrated while using AI to code, because they don't there's there's a bit of a learning curve there sometimes. I remember when GitHub Copilot first came out, people were like, it's not coding for me. And they're like, you have to type, like, and it's it was more of like a tab completion back then. I think they expected it to be more like an agent. So just Yeah. Giving them a overview. Like, when once you have your teams, it's not just here's the documentation.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":30,"time":"10:57","seconds":657,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"It's here's our AI tools. Here's how you can use it to onboard. I even used it for TBD myself. When I when I joined TBD, I was like, don't know what Web five is. I'm joining. I kinda skipped from being a mid level developer advocate all the way to staff. I'm like, I don't wanna act like I don't know anything. But if they had like a a GPT extension, and I would just go back and forth when someone would ask me a question, maybe some terminology that's specific to the to the the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":31,"time":"11:26","seconds":686,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"ecosystem, I would be like, hey, what does this mean? Or I'd be like, hey, how does the data get stored in here? Is it like, does this happen? And it would tell me no or yes or whatever, because the data, the GPT extension was trained on, like, our documentation. So I was like, oh, it was saving me so much. And I also had to answer a lot of questions in Discord from community members. So that helped me be like, okay. I this is my second day here, but here's what the GPTF snatches at. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I I do love it for, as you're onboarding,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":32,"time":"11:58","seconds":718,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"actually figuring out where things are and understanding, what you need to do to kind of have this public facing role. And obviously you've had experience at both GitHub and Block with AI You've seen them influence team dynamics and collaboration. Have you seen any particularly notable shifts that have been driven","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":33,"time":"12:18","seconds":738,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"by AI tools in how communication patterns or knowledge sharing is occurring, particularly for technical teams. At Block, a lot of what we do, we have all of these internal AI tools. So I'm used to like, you join a company, you just search through the documentation on like, when, to figure out like about parental leave or insurance or whatever. But we have like a lot of internal AI tools where you can just ask the questions","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":34,"time":"12:43","seconds":763,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"to these different AI tools and it'll tell you. So that's like one shift I've seen in like communication patterns and knowledge sharing. And that's really the main one. Think we'll start to, at least for me, I think we'll start to see a bit more as people use MCP or model context protocol a little bit. But those are the main ones I've seen. Have you I'm curious.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":35,"time":"13:06","seconds":786,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"You know, I was just thinking about this, and I'm certainly seeing it, like, the the mid management level of, like, oh, I am now enabling my team differently when they're onboarding. I'm now trying to share information in different ways. I'm trying to plan for my team members to add this context into whatever, you know, model they wanna leverage and do this. And then at the enterprise level, I do see exactly kind of what you're mentioning here. It's like, okay, how can we enable certain processes to just be simpler?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":36,"time":"13:36","seconds":816,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. But I think we're just scratching the surface here potentially, and it's something I wanna have more conversations with on this podcast with folks who are kind of deep in the organizational design piece, because there is this massive potential for us to all have async junior digital employees, these AI agents that are functioning for us, async senior employees, in some cases, that are digital","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":37,"time":"13:59","seconds":839,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"agents. And I think we need to reimagine how our organizational dynamics function, because if we don't consider that, we have already gone through this major remote work transformation driven by COVID, or accelerated by COVID at least. And I don't think we've fully reckoned with how that has reshaped work, especially as we've had this like wave of return to offices movement the last year or two. So there's this tension that's happening here. There's still a ton of communication happening for most companies in Slack or Teams, these kind of digital workspaces.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":38,"time":"14:31","seconds":871,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And now we're adding this whole kind of subclass of additional, I mean, you can think of them maybe right now as contractors often, I think increasingly more important employees who are coding, who are running processes for you. And while we're seeing some major enterprises make decisions like cutting headcount in certain areas to kind of reassess, and we're also seeing plenty of employees get enabled by these same tools,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":39,"time":"14:59","seconds":899,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, no. It seems like there hasn't been a kind of clear organizational plan that has taken root as like, here's how you manage a bunch of AI agents at your company. And I think in the next year, we're gonna see that. Yeah. And I think we're gonna see a few different models of that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":40,"time":"15:16","seconds":916,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"Yeah. I'm really curious to how that's gonna play out. And now that you say that all, it makes me realize or remember, like, I guess, the original intention for Goose, which is the the AI agent that, like, Block came out with. It was it was the first developed to kind of enable our employees because we were like, yeah. Yeah. It was like about helping with migrations","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":41,"time":"15:41","seconds":941,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"and we were all about right now or this year, our goal is like to automate and make sure employees are not doing work about work. Like, we can just get straight to the impact.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":42,"time":"15:52","seconds":952,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"That makes So me think about that, and I'm curious about how it's going to play out in the future. And I know there are folks who are thinking about this. I'll say, if you're listening to this episode right now and you have thoughts on this, that should be a message. We'd love to feature your questions or your answers to this, or maybe we'll have you on for an interview. But Rizel, I would love to understand more about how AI agents fit into","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":43,"time":"16:15","seconds":975,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Block's company strategy. Are you able to talk a bit more about how kind of the origins of Goose and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":44,"time":"16:21","seconds":981,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"how this all came about? I don't know if people know this. Right? Like, were originally called Square, and now we're called Block. A lot of times people think that's because we are into blockchain or something like that. But it's more it's more like we've become like three-dimensional. And we're about like just economic empowerment in general, but like we're beyond square. We're into we have Tidal as a subsidiary, which is empowering","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":45,"time":"16:47","seconds":1007,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"musicians and all these different things. So, part of us doing economic empowerment through innovation means that we need to, at least for me, this is how I view it, not necessarily the company, But part of that is like getting into emerging tech such as AI, and AI agents and automation and freeing up our, as I mentioned, our employees to work on things that matter and not just work about work. Our broader initiatives are more like open source based. And then we're like, okay, what are like the emerging technologies that are out there that we can use to kind of tap into that economic empowerment and enable people more? So it's not necessarily like, oh, we need to get into AI, we need to get into this. It's like, how can we get people to be feel empowered economically faster,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":46,"time":"17:33","seconds":1053,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"and in in in more industries?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":47,"time":"17:36","seconds":1056,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And to allude back to our conversation earlier where you brought up psychological safety, that is such a benefit of having a team that you build psychological safety with is this empowerment, you get major results back from team members off of this. So I totally agree there's massive opportunities with agents and with AI broadly to empower employees to be more productive. I mean, it's where we're seeing more and more 10x devs. I also really like that Block has taken this intentional decision to focus on an open source approach to developing Goose.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":48,"time":"18:10","seconds":1090,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Benefits have you seen as a result?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":49,"time":"18:12","seconds":1092,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"Yeah. I think main benefit is community gets involved. I love that because I think when I've worked with other AI tools in the past, even GitHub Copilot, loved working with it. But I didn't really know under the hood what was happening. I kinda just listened to other engineers at the company, and I couldn't have as much influence as I wanted to, even though I was a developer advocate. Big company,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":50,"time":"18:36","seconds":1116,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"I just can say like, hey, this is the feedback we're getting. But at Block, I can literally be like, hey, I see this feedback, I can push my own code to improve it, and so can other community members. And then I also think another benefit is like, hey, we're giving back to the developer community as well. We've benefited from them, we're giving back to them. I know that like many AI agents are closed source, but I really think it allows and enables for people to bring in like their what they want to happen and bring in that extensibility as well. Because there's all these ways that you can like bring in your own tools and a lot of it is like code based. So people instead of making requests to us can just be like, hey, I wanna enable this to connect with my company or whatever different MCP server I have or whatever. So I think that's like one of the main benefits.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":51,"time":"19:27","seconds":1167,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I absolutely agree. And I know I've I've had similar experiences where you're trying to give this feedback and it's not quite making it through the right channels. And I do think that's a really awesome element of projects like this, where you get the ability to really act on it, and people then can have a discussion on an actual action, you know, something you've submitted, a PR, versus","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":52,"time":"19:50","seconds":1190,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"having it have to move its way through all these kind of tiers. Yeah. And I I do think it's something that helps Blocks open sourced AI agent goose stand out compared to closed source alternatives. What broader impact do you think this could have on the AI ecosystem?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":53,"time":"20:05","seconds":1205,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"I'm hoping it inspires other developers, gives them more insight into how AI agents work. I think a lot of the tools with AI, it just feels like a black box. You're like, this is magic. Like, what's really happening? So I think just even like, I I don't know. I'm a nerd. Sometimes I look at different open source projects. I'm like, oh, that's how this works. I mean, I guess we're all nerds if we're listening to the podcast. Probably true.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":54,"time":"20:32","seconds":1232,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"But I'm like, I always wanna know how it works. So I think one thing is it it is I'm hoping it inspires other developers and gives them insights into how things are really working. And I also hope that it encourages other companies to take an open source route. I don't think AI needs to be closed source all the time. Like sometimes I understand like, for economic reasons or financial reasons or whatever. But I think there's benefits","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":55,"time":"21:01","seconds":1261,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"where it can, yeah, it can just make people know more. Also, another thing with open source that I always like is that it's almost, it's authentic marketing. I was gonna say free marketing, but that doesn't sound good. It's authentic.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":56,"time":"21:16","seconds":1276,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It's so","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":57,"time":"21:19","seconds":1279,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"free. We're virtual.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":58,"time":"21:20","seconds":1280,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"We can be honest here. It's okay.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":59,"time":"21:23","seconds":1283,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"It's authentic and free marketing where oh, we you have people just excited to talk about it. You get your people that are just contributors and they're excited about it. They're talking about it at conferences because they're getting that chance to feel like they're part of the project. So I think that's another benefit, and I'm hoping to see more open source AI.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":60,"time":"21:48","seconds":1308,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"100% agreed. And I think that authenticity point is really crucial, because folks in dev communities typically don't love being marketed to, in fact, actively get annoyed by it quite often. Yeah. Probably the highest percentage of ad blockers on their browsers of anyone in the world, if I had to bet. So I love that idea of let's be authentic, let's be upfront, and let's encourage these folks who love to problem solve to come engage with us and help solve this problem together and collaboratively.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":61,"time":"22:18","seconds":1338,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And that's what makes the best relationships, whether it's with customers or folks who are simply, hey, I'm interested in this product. I want to engage with it. So I certainly think open source AI agents have this opportunity to shape the future of AI.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":62,"time":"22:34","seconds":1354,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"What role do you think enterprise companies like Block can play in fostering this growth? So the role, I think they can like, enterprise companies have, like, a huge influence. Right? You think of you're thinking of Netflix. You're thinking of all these companies. And I think, man, would we I need to redo it again. Let me think again about my thoughts. I got distracted after All good.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":63,"time":"23:07","seconds":1387,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I can also skip this question if if you don't feel like you have any anything compelling you wanna share with it. Yeah. Talk about the community involvement aspect instead. Yeah. Let's skip it. I I didn't know the answer, but I don't remember it because I suspect it'll come out as we talk about community involvement and kind of more fluidly the conversation versus, like, a direct here's the the insight type question. So Okay. Cool.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":64,"time":"23:30","seconds":1410,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I think we both envision open source AI agents having this opportunity to shape the future of AI. And enterprise companies like Block or Meta or Netflix who contribute to open source projects, particularly in AI, have this huge opportunity to drive research and innovation in the space forward. From your perspective, how is Block encouraging community involvement in its open source projects?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":65,"time":"23:56","seconds":1436,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And and what do you think makes this approach successful?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":66,"time":"23:58","seconds":1438,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"So the way I always think of it, and I'll take it from just the open source stance first, and then go into AI. Right? I always encourage big companies and mid level companies to get into open source, just because they're leveraging a lot of open source tools, and they have like the most money, so they can be able to encourage other users to be like, oh, or help them gain more exposure as well as these open source tools. And I think that's the same with AI tooling, right? If you see that like, oh, Microsoft,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":67,"time":"24:29","seconds":1469,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"as we've seen, Microsoft and GitHub kind of made like coding with AI, at least from my perspective. They made it like popular, they made it more known, and then everybody else started like coming on the train, we got Google and all of that. So, if we start seeing companies that are bigger adopt open source AI, it'll help other users and community members be like, oh, we need to be in that race as well. And I think that's the role that Block can play. And we're not taking it from that perspective at all, but I think that can be like","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":68,"time":"25:01","seconds":1501,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"a domino effect. What we're doing is we're just opening this up to the community to be like, hey, here's we use this for our employees and it's been helpful, and we want to open it up to you. You can contribute through code. You can join our Discord. You can be part of our livestreams and podcasts and share your thought processes and gain more exposure from from your AI tooling as well or see how you can incorporate it with ours. So that's that's the perspective I have. Absolutely agreed. And, I mean, we've seen this with open source for years right now, whether it's, you know, Kubernetes or any other open source project. There are so many ways where open source has driven software development forward, has Yeah. Let more people come in and contribute and be involved,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":69,"time":"25:44","seconds":1544,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and really let us put more brains towards these problems, helped move our overall industry forward, helped enable these incredible tools we've built. And now not only are AI coding tools enabling more people to build, but the more we can add open source opportunities to contribute to AI, the more we can aggregate more human knowledge towards these incredible next layer of tools we can develop. So I love that Block is thinking about that intentionally. I love that you're engaging with it intentionally.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":70,"time":"26:13","seconds":1573,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I'd love to get your thoughts on how you envision AI and open source shaping the future of developer communities and the overall culture of software development, because I think we are seeing a shift that's already starting to occur.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":71,"time":"26:27","seconds":1587,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"In shaping our communities and how we do things, I think it's gonna obviously help us be more productive and faster, focus on the things that make us have fun, And it's gonna help us to kinda, I don't know, it gives people a bit of a superpower to be like, hey, I don't know this language, but I'm gonna figure out how to use it. I might not know how to do certain things, but I'm gonna use AI to help me. I also think though, it's going to we're starting to start thinking about different","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":72,"time":"26:59","seconds":1619,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"AI products. Like before, everybody's just coming out with like, oh, here's another way to code with AI. But now, have to start thinking about like, is this secure? We're using AI agents to kind of just tap into our systems. Is it hallucinating? How do we make sure that we're testing and evaluating these tools right? So, I think it's also helping to bring up some of these departments","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":73,"time":"27:23","seconds":1643,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"or even companies focused on these kind of initiatives.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-73","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":74,"time":"27:26","seconds":1646,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Absolutely. And for listeners, I'll certainly say this is a topic we've covered already on this podcast. Testing and evaluation of AI is obviously what we do here at Galileo, galileo.ai, check it out. But there's been several conversations with incredible thought leaders, including Chip Nguyen and others on this show. So go check those out if you wanna go more into that topic, because I think it is important and something that we want to address in the show is there are potential downsides and there are risks associated with using AI. There's risks with using AI to enable psychological safety in your team, even. You're kind of offloading this work to a computer. Is that integral","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-74","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":75,"time":"28:03","seconds":1683,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"stuff that you should be taking care of? Maybe in some cases, yes. So I'd love to kind of close this conversation, Rizel, by taking that perspective. You know, we've had this very exciting, optimistic conversation, and broadly, I feel that way about AI. But it's so easy to get lost in the hype and kind of only focus on the exciting parts versus considering,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-75","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":76,"time":"28:25","seconds":1705,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"hey, where do we have to maybe pull back a bit? Where do we have to be careful? So how do you think teams can ensure that AI tools are used responsibly, and ethically, and effectively?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-76","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":77,"time":"28:37","seconds":1717,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"Yeah. I mean, one thing is, like you said, using tools like you, like Galileo, making sure that, like, you're testing and evaluating your stuff properly. And then just making sure that developers aren't just checking in. Like, I mean, at the base level, that's something you can do, like, at the very least, like, hey, don't just check-in AI code, review what it's giving you, like train them. I don't know, the same that we get, like those trainings","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-77","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":78,"time":"29:06","seconds":1746,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"in the beginning for security or harassment at a company, you might also need like a how to code with AI training. Like don't just check-in code, review it just as you would review a co worker's code and stuff like that. Make sure everything's well, like your writing test still, you're manually testing it. Don't just take what it says and go with it. Remember, figure out how hallucinations","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-78","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":79,"time":"29:29","seconds":1769,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"work and how to kind of reduce them. All those type of topics, I think, are at the base level are helpful.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-79","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":80,"time":"29:37","seconds":1777,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I think this goes back to both the guardrails question, which we've kind of alluded to here around, okay, we've got to make sure we're evaluating, testing, ensuring safety in the AI tools themselves, and also the organizational design commentary we had earlier, whether that's enabling psychological safety for developers to experiment, to try things out, to innovate in these new areas, whether that's with open source or other methods,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-80","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":81,"time":"30:00","seconds":1800,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"and also,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-81","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":82,"time":"30:01","seconds":1801,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"hey, am I using GitHub Actions or GitStream, an open source tool that my last business worked on, to enable our PRs to make sure they're reviewed? How do we make sure that all this new code is actually good? Like, those are problems we have to grapple with. And to me, they're really exciting because, hey, we have so many new folks who are enabled to be more technical, to be more involved. Hey, we have these agents that are starting to accomplish some awesome things for us. You know, one big example that I've seen is let's take all this migration work that no one really enjoys doing- Right. Off of our plate, and let us focus on kind of net new features, new opportunities.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-82","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":83,"time":"30:41","seconds":1841,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"But all of that requires organizational structure and work on the organization side. And I don't think that's going away anytime soon. No. So I think on the fear side, we kind of alluded to it earlier, this fear of like, oh, is my job going away? No, but it may change. You may change and have to do more work on setting others and setting your team and setting these agents up for success. And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-83","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":84,"time":"31:03","seconds":1863,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"to me, that's really exciting.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-84","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":85,"time":"31:05","seconds":1865,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"But it is important that we talk about it because if we don't, it's so easy to just go ahead and say, oh, I'm just shipping all this code and then creating, refactoring problems. Problems. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I agree. I think a lot of people, like you said, they they get afraid. I know I first when I first started talking about GitHub Copilot, I had someone say to me, like, if this is where technology is going, I don't wanna be a software engineer anymore. But,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-85","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":86,"time":"31:26","seconds":1886,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"just so crazy. But I'm like, just like the, we went from like buggies to, like horse and buggy to a car, your role is kind of just shifting. We have to adapt and look forward to like what you're saying like, oh shoot, Like, maybe we'll have to be putting in guardrails. Maybe we'll have to start thinking in our organization level, like how this is going to work. So, yeah, I implore everyone to start thinking about how can I shift my skills","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-86","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":87,"time":"31:51","seconds":1911,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"into the future of AI?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-87","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":88,"time":"31:54","seconds":1914,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Absolutely. And the only constant in life is change, and we all have to continue to deal with it. Things do not stay the same over time, whether it's just from entropy or anything else. And I mean, we've started talking about test driven development in software for years now. Yeah. Like, we've started talking about evaluation driven development and AI. So these are concepts that are happening.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-88","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":89,"time":"32:14","seconds":1934,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"We just have to make sure we're paying attention. So Rozelle, thank you so much for joining me for this wide ranging conversation, for sharing your insights, and talking about some of the exciting work happening at Block. Where can folks who are listening go to learn more about you or the work you're doing at Block?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-89","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":90,"time":"32:29","seconds":1949,"speaker":"Rizel Scarlett","text":"So folks can follow me on any social media. My handle is black girl bites on there. Like bites with a y, not like biting you. And then for learning about the work that Block is doing, you can go to github.com/block/goose to learn about Goose itself. And then we also have on social media, the block open source socials on Twitter, Blue Sky, LinkedIn, whatever you could think of. Fantastic.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-90","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":91,"time":"33:01","seconds":1981,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"We will certainly link those in the episode description. Rizel, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having your guest star appear with us too. And again, if you didn't get a chance to see Roselle's guest star, check out our YouTube for some fun clips. But that's all for this episode of Chain of Thought. Thanks for listening, everyone. And Roselle, you so much for joining us. Thank you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-91","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett","episode":10,"guid":"c97eb75a-9048-408c-bcd4-638ec4df2068","episodeTitle":"AI, Open Source & Developer Safety | Block’s Rizel Scarlett","publishedAt":"2025-01-29","segmentIndex":92,"time":"33:19","seconds":1999,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Be sure to check out the show notes for links to everything we discussed today. And don't forget to subscribe to our podcast and our YouTube channel, where we post every episode of the podcast, plus all of your favorite moments and clips. Great to chat with y'all and see you next week.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/10-ai-open-source-and-developer-safety-blocks-rizel-scarlett/#t-92","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":0,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"in the next three to five years, every piece of software that is built on this planet will have some sort of AI baked into it. new era of software development, right? Like this is a new paradigms, new ways to build software. And if you turn the clock back to the 1980s, how we used to build traditional software. we're kind of there within the new era of AI software, there's no eval tooling, there's no machinery around, you know, building a piece of software in a robust way. People are using caveman tools, you know, just to look at, wipe checks and eyeballs. That's how potentially we used to do, you know, software development in the earliest days when when software became a thing, so we're kind of back to square zero in a way,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":1,"time":"1:00","seconds":60,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"it's a new year and we are back with a new season of the chain of thought podcast. Welcome to season two of chain of thought. I'm Conor Bronsdon, head of developer awareness at Galileo. And I'm delighted to be joined once again by my fellow hosts and the co founders of Galileo. We've got two out of three here today. Yash Sheth COO and Atindriyo Drio Sanyal CTO. Atin Yash, thanks so much for joining me Today.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":2,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Excited for the new year. Let's do it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":3,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, it's great to be here in 2025.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":4,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I think there's so much excitement happening in AI coming out of this incredible growth year we saw in 2024. What do you expect the theme for 2025 to be with AI,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":5,"time":"2:00","seconds":120,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"if one word comes to mind, it's automation. so far, we have been really leveraging this technology to answer questions to, make technology more conversational and, while that has been a great start to adopting language models as part of software, the real ROI is going to come from leveraging this technology to automate so many, so many workflows out there across industries.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":6,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Atin, what's your take on that?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":7,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Yeah, I think, AI will find two kinds of fit in 2025. One is it will start getting towards product market fit. where we'll start seeing some user benefits and, you know, these LLM systems will start reaping some business results, but it will also start seeing, product tool stack fit. But what that means is we spent a lot of 2025, you know, putting early prototypes into production, but the tool stack was still evolving and still mature, uh, immature. Um, a lot of libraries come, come in and go out. We'll start seeing a lot of the engineering and systems around the LLM starting to mature, which will lead into building more practical and better systems.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":8,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":9,"time":"3:00","seconds":180,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Is there a particular advancement that you're anticipating, that you're thinking, Hey, we're seeing the early signs of this and this is going to happen later this year.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":10,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"I think from my perspective, lot of focus will be on getting LLMs to actually do work and take action, as opposed to just showing some generation that looks smart, which is where agents come in. a lot of the foundational models are also focusing towards multi modality, so that will, that's the other, other thing that'll sort of pick up. and it'll be interesting to see a hybrid system where, you know, the LLMs are taken to the next level. They start actually achieving goals for users and, not only taking language as input, but also images and audio.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":11,"time":"4:00","seconds":240,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Just one more thing I'd like to add there is the ability for LLMs to generate, high quality outputs in a lower token count, basically like, you know, able to generate things faster is going to improve drastically like, you know, the Gemini 2. 0 flash model is just just a quick example that came out, not too long ago, last year. And, you know, we're going to see a trend in that. I think The biggest, as I mentioned earlier, like, and to Athin's point as well, if automation, true automation is going to be unlocked and, LLMs are going to be able to make, you know, API calls, run, execute code and process large amounts of data, multi modal images, audio, etc. then generation latency has to come down and we're already seeing that trend happening.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":12,"time":"5:00","seconds":300,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Totally. one more just additional point to the automation bit, since Yash mentioned code generation and, code related use cases, one thing I'm personally very excited about is, taking code generation beyond just generating boilerplate template code, which is kind of the low hanging fruit. I know we got the statistic recently that 25 percent of Google's code is now code gen automated. lot of that if you would put a magnifying glass, you'll see that it's stuff that they would have to write, but, code that's essentially boilerplate. But, we'll take steps towards better code understanding. And, you know, giving more nuanced Generated code, which is not only, you know, a couple of for loops and, you know, basic things, but more really understanding the context around the code. so very excited to see, you know, progress on that front.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":13,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Do you think you're going to be ready to implement that autonomous AI dev agent this year, Atin or not? Not quite yet.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":14,"time":"6:00","seconds":360,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"I'm excited to. I do think a lot of this was kind of. You know, we had prototypes, released in 2024, which people, many sort of criticized and, thought that, oh, it's just, toys. but we'll truly see some very incredible advancements towards that. the most exciting thing I think is, There'll still be a human in the loop or developer in the loop needed because you're not just writing the code writing is just probably 10 percent of a software engineer's job. There's design and a lot of other things. So it'll free the developer up from writing code. And at some point we'll get fully automated code writing, kind of like autonomous driving. And then you can just focus on, you know, connecting boxes with arrows and building awesome systems. Thanks.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":15,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"same time though, as someone who enjoys writing code occasionally, even if I personally be the worst one on this call and actually doing it. I don't know that I want to fully free up my code gen. I want to spend my time, as you point out on the kind of like higher level, more strategic pieces. It's that boilerplate that I'm really excited to get rid of where it's like, great, like, let me get to stage one here more rapidly. Let me make my update from one framework to another more rapidly. And I'm curious if there are particular use cases, whether it's something with software developers or something else that you're hearing from customers about. What they want to see from AI, whether it's this year or in the coming future.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":16,"time":"7:00","seconds":420,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"one thing I'll like, in terms of particular use cases, it, really depends on the, the industry and the vertical. Like, you know what I'm hearing right from the,the inception of the, generative ai, landscape here is like, can we use this technology in to convert? Like COBOL and Fortran code and financial services and like mainframes to more performant, maybe Rust or, you know, even Python for that matter. I know that a lot of there's a lot of effort being put behind that just that, you know, I'm not seeing a lot of financial institutions really talking about it because it's a sensitive topic. You don't want to change the world's, transaction capabilities overnight. But, you know, I'd love to see, some amazing progress on that front this year because that's truly going to be transformational for the world's economy.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":17,"time":"8:00","seconds":480,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"And I fully agree. And, uh, it's very interesting. The point, Yash mentions about, translating code from, you know, old school legacy systems, but also some of the modern software that we've built, potentially on programming languages, which are, chosen for reasons other than performance. And you end up building so much tech debt tech debt that is like a cancer in every organization you go to. And it leads to slow systems, so it'll be very interesting if we can totally automate code translation into, languages like C++ which are just natively 1000x faster than some of the more application layer languages.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":18,"time":"9:00","seconds":540,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I absolutely think that's one of the. Almost current opportunities. it's one of the big things Amazon did in 2024 and trumpeted during their, I believe Q3 earnings was, Hey, you know, our Q software generation, tool allowed us to upgrade from, I think it was Java 8 to Java 17, this massive savings across the board. I had a conversation with. LinkedIn's VP of engineering, Aarathi Vidyasagar, who fantastic leader on this front, thinks very deeply about developer experience in particular. And she thought about it from the perspective of what they're trying to do at LinkedIn and say, okay, we, we don't want our devs to spend their time having to do this major translation. That's not exciting work. Let's free up their time for new features. Let's free up their time for more exciting parts of their role and kind of help with that translation layer of great, let's get. Into C whatever it is we want to upgrade to. I totally think you're both spot on that. This is a major opportunity, both right now with all kind of the co pilots of the world, but also with agents here pretty shortly, if not already.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":19,"time":"10:00","seconds":600,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Yeah. I mean, speaking of agents, right, like, I mean, I think until now there's been a lot of focus around code and code capabilities for these language models. and the big reason is that even if you look at the biggest, you know, highest valued companies, a lot of their, OPEX goes in developer costs, like, you know, developers are some of the most expensive resources, And that's where a lot of spend goes. A lot of innovation happens there. So if you can free up time, this massive ROI to be unlocked. if you look at industry wise and there are tens of thousands of people processing transactions, documents, in various verticals, whether it's, financial services again, or even, you know, telecom or regulatory defense, there's so much manual inspection happening. And the reason why it's these things haven't come up yet is because agents are just being productionized this year. that's where the true automation will help all of these. folks get up skilled to not be doing the manual grungy tasks of inspection, almost like develop on top of this technology that, okay, this automation is already helping me review all of this. What can we build more on top of that to help the end user?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":20,"time":"11:00","seconds":660,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Just to add to that point, I think this is where it also underscores the need for better evaluation tooling for these kind of LLM applications, Number one, not only are these systems more complicated with agents and various other components in the mix, it's not just you querying an LLM, it's also that you're achieving, it's also that you're not just getting a textual output as a generation, you're actually executing an action. So, you know, the the penalty you pay for the right action versus the wrong action is potentially much higher than, say, a simple generation, which is why you need robust evaluation tooling that can be achieved at scale cost and efficient cost as well.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":21,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. Atin, I'd love for you to unpack a bit more how is thinking through the approach to evaluating agents in particular, as we see that as such a theme. Here in 2025 is the rise of agents. The opportunity for agents. How do you think businesses should be thinking through agentic evaluations and the different pieces of that process?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":22,"time":"12:00","seconds":720,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"I'd love to hear Yash as well. But from my perspective, there's a few different components to this. Number one is The accuracy off the metrics, that help you truly evaluate. the task at hand and second is customizability because there's no, two tasks which are exactly the same, which one metric can, you know, be faithful. To add a hundred percent accuracy. It's like one size fits some, so that's where the platform kind of comes in and allows the developer rather. It's like inversion of control, giving the developer the power to use these ingredients, but build custom evaluations on top of it, which can adapt To your use case, which brings me to my third point, which is adaptability. Once you productionize these applications, similar to, machine learning in general, like we would productionize models and the data would change over time, the models would meet new data and there'll be drift and you want to address the drift by taking action similar to here, right? As the users are using the system. Data is changing. The patterns of usage are changing. So your metrics also need to evolve over time. They might lose their accuracy otherwise. So all this needs to be baked into an evaluation platform, but Yash, I would love to hear your take as well.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":23,"time":"14:00","seconds":840,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"I've always stated, that. when we're productionizing AI, the rigor in AI has gone from curating the best data sets and fine tuning the most accurate model. To using out of the box models that are amazing and really spending that time to create the best set of metrics and this is beyond guardrails because you know when we think about guardrails, it's typically like these prompts or these instructions that we can set in the system prompt for the model, but the model may choose to disregard those guardrails at some point, right? So, it's very important to measure and it. If we can do an amazing job at quantifying the behavior of your application through metrics, that's where it, frees us up to scale that application in production. Now, why is that even more important for agents is because with these API calls, the tool calling, the code execution, there are going to be irreversible changes that agents make out there. And for that, be able to run these metrics that quantify what a good behavior looks like and enforce that in real time in an agentic flow is going to be absolutely critical. we have what we call Galileo protect, but, essentially what's,that is, is a control pane for your generative AI application. It's like, you know, you may call it firewall for some security threats, but it's more so control pane where this, as soon as you detect bad behavior, you can immediately, create a metric to detect that and prevent your application from. bad behavior within seconds. That's going to be absolutely critical for every agentic application of that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":24,"time":"15:00","seconds":900,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And as you both point out, this is an area where Galileo is putting a lot of time in. You know, we're looking at not only the step level of, Hey, is this agent making the right tool selections? Is it doing the correct actions? But also the turn level of. Is it performing these actions in the right order? And then also, is the final result accurate? And we can get more granular around that. I'm sure we'll have a broader discussion there. But I would also encourage folks who are interested in thinking through this kind of identic frameworks to check out our recent episode, our last one of season one, with Vinnie from Twilio, where he goes in depth on how Twilio is thinking through Their platform for their customers to build AI agents and how Galileo is enabling them with evaluations and observability at every step of the way to build those agents. we're really glad to have them as a partner and, very excited to continue to grow that relationship.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":25,"time":"16:00","seconds":960,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And as we think ahead to the rest of 2025, I've loved to give the audience some context on some of the other more forward thinking initiatives we are Working on behind the scenes, if not already starting to bring on the scenes. Atin, Yash, I'd love to hear from you both. Maybe Yash, if you want to start, what do you view as the top priorities for Galileo and for AI evaluations in 2025?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":26,"time":"17:00","seconds":1020,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Galileo is squarely focused on building evaluation intelligence for the trust layer in the generative AI side. What does that mean? to build through evaluation intelligence, we have to help our users to firstly solve that measurement problem How do we quantify your behavior, your application's behavior into metrics? And we'd be able to do that quickly within minutes and accurately is the first thing that's important. the second most important component of evaluation intelligence is, you know, what use are these metrics if they're just offline? Like, you know, we need to be able to scale these metrics and enforce them in production at scale. because again, With agentic evaluation, it's not like just people talking to a chatbot, they're going to be many transactions that happen for maybe every data entry in a table or every, every code that, you know, file that is updated. There is an agentic flow that gets kicked off with it. So when you, when we think about these applications and enforcing metrics at scale, those are going to be kind of the top two priorities. and you know, love to have Atin also talk more in that direction.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":27,"time":"18:00","seconds":1080,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Yeah. I mean, here's a hot take from me. I think in the next three to five years, every piece of software that is built on this planet will have some sort of AI baked into it. And it's kind of like new era of software development, right? Like this is a new paradigms, new ways to build software. And if you turn the clock back to the 1980s, how we used to build traditional software. we're kind of there within the new era of AI software, there's no eval tooling, there's no machinery around, you know, building a piece of software in a robust way. People are using caveman tools, you know, just to look at, wipe checks and eyeballs. That's how potentially we used to do, you know, software development in the earliest days of when when software became a thing, so we're kind of back to square zero in a way, that's why evaluation is super critical and it took us many decades to get to the level of sophistication and around the tooling around traditional software that has allowed us to literally change the world. 90 percent of the world today has used some sort of software in their life. And to get to that with AI, I think the time frame will be much shorter because we are just more advanced as a species. But, in the next 5 to 10 years, we'll certainly see, a revolution in, uh, The engineering and the machinery around these LLMs, and there'll be progress on both fronts, like you'll have better, better software, but also better models. And, there's a combination of which will be very exciting to see, you know, the possibilities.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":28,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"That is a spicy hot take, and I think it'll take longer. I think there's still a lot of room for deterministic systems for at least the next several years, but I'm excited to see if, you get proven right here, I will, I will owe you a meal if, you, said five years was your top end. So let's, keep an eye on it. Cause, uh, we'll, we'll check back here on, and so what'll that be season seven for us and, uh, we'll, we'll have a review of the different hot takes we've had at that point. so as you think about this advancement of AI and how fast the space is moving, as you pointed out, it is arguably iterating faster than any prior technological advancement, because in and of itself, we are building self learning models that are helping speed the development themselves in a lot of ways. How is Galileo going to contribute to the advancement of AI this year and beyond?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":29,"time":"20:00","seconds":1200,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":", my perspective is that we think of, not just evaluations as a necessity, but. scalable evaluations. So we're tackling the problem, not just from the perspective of, Hey, we need to give something is accurate and actionable for a user, but also how do we do it at scale and allow the user to take their application literally to the world. And they get a customized suite of evaluation methodologies that scales with their data, that scales with their application. So I think the focus for us is on two fronts. One is, of course, we have, a scalable platform that allows a user to use a lot of the metrics and create metrics and customize metrics on Galileo, but also, work on, baseline metrics that we offer in the product at dirt cheap. If, for example, we have the only hallucination detection model and algorithm that literally works at zero dollars, And there's no one in the industry that does that. And a lot of research and a lot of brainpower has gone into building methods like that. So we'll continue to push the envelope on both. You know, research and newer ways, advanced ways, cheaper ways off of achieving a high accuracy evals at scale, but also offer a world class platform that scales with the user and allows them to, design, test cases and. security measures that adapts to their application, like Yash talked about AI security being such a critical thing. I think the software engineering or the SDK API layers that we offer becomes very critical, but also latencies, right? Like, we're the only ones who offer a very low latency, both P50 and P95. that actually works for applications beyond a certain throughput, but pass the baton to Yash to talk more about that and also get his take.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":30,"time":"22:00","seconds":1320,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I think, in terms of advancing AI, right? again, I, I go back to the fundamentals of, advancing AI means, Increasing AI adoption in software across the board. Now, as AI replaces parts of software or even augments software, as of today, we're already seeing a lot of that having a trust layer that can speed up the adoption and automation of AI. You know, AI powered software is going to be critical, that includes CICD monitoring and the firewall, you know, the typical trust layer of the software stack that's changing massively and we see how every single hyperscaler out there or model provider is making evaluations front and center. That's because, you know, that's super, super important to, to adopt. Now, to Atin's point about scaling. if. today, a lot of the evaluation is happening via LLMs, like there aren't any, you know, stochastic or statistical metrics that can evaluate these applications, right? And we're all aware about how LLMs are being used in this space. Now, how can we push the state of the art to a point where things can actually scale to millions and millions of requests? To thousands of QPS of traffic at a cost point, the price point that, that can scale as well. no one wants to double their OpenAI bills no one wants to, uh, have, an evaluation system that takes 10 seconds to evaluate one prompt.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":31,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I think you're spot on there. We would all like to decrease those bills if we had our druthers. And I also think it speaks to the value of the proprietary research Galileo has done around our chain pull and Luna methodology. Are there opportunities that you see on the research front to continue to further that unique proprietary advantage that Galileo has? We've been leveraging and hopefully help the entire industry do these evaluations across the board, but in a more cheap and more scalable way.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":32,"time":"24:00","seconds":1440,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"We've been working on two aspects of that research. one is, building better, higher accuracy, fundamental sort of foundational models that actually measure things like rag hallucinations and task completions and all the things that people care about. add, reasonably high baseline accuracy that's respectable, but then beyond that, making them fine tunable and to the point of fine tuning, that's the second aspect of our, our work, which is.We term as lunar flow, which is essentially this framework that allows you to, it's almost like a metrics authoring slash fine tuning system that caters to anyone who has a loose definition of what they want to evaluate. They can literally start with a natural language text definition. And from there, we've built the proprietary tech to be able to create a high accuracy metric that adapts to their data. takes feedback. There's RLHF happening behind the scenes, but also there's an auto ML layer in the loop, which fine tunes to the data. So you can bring your data to the table, upload it to the Galileo system and magically the metric accuracy improves, over time. So that that's a lot of the machinery, our engineering team works on and then doing that at scale. So those are the two or three main areas of focus for us.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":33,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yash, is there a particular aspect of Galileo's research around Luna or, chain pull that you think maybe we haven't talked about enough that we should spend more time on?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":34,"time":"26:00","seconds":1560,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Oh, absolutely. I think one of The most amazing recent launches are that can we, how can we quickly adapt our out of the box metrics to the use case itself? the whole continuous learning flow on identifying not only what needs to be measured, but also understanding your data and what needs Like, what, how can we tweak the metrics to best represent your task? another piece of our research that, that Galileo has developed over the years is our capability of measuring semantic drift in the traffic. How can that help, curate the best datasets? How can that help, uh, assign identifying skews in our traffic because as you know, when we think about good observability in production, these applications that we're building are so broad sometimes that users can use these applications in varied ways over time. If we can capture that meaningfully and give users strong workflows, very, very strong workflows. And, you know, I think talked about the lunar flow. That is basically a workflow, to keep their metrics layer, their data sets, up to date and most representative, then teams will feel most confident in delivering those applications in production.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":35,"time":"27:00","seconds":1620,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Do either of you see opportunities for us to partner with other players in the AI space this year to increase that research opportunity or that technology opportunity.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":36,"time":"28:00","seconds":1680,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Absolutely. I mean, I think, we've shown some early, partners through our series B announcements last year with, you know, databricks and ServiceNow and, you know, we have the partnerships with, you know, the cloud providers, obviously, but I think on a technology front, there's a lot happening behind the scenes where, we work with the vector DB providers, we work with the model providers, and we are working on essentially building, a model or a technology agnostic system. Our focus is to help the application developers. by partnering with these technology providers, developers can integrate our systems into an end to end flow that can help them leverage these models at a higher scale. Today, a lot of the POCs are stuck in the POC phase and not being able to go into production because of the missing trust layer. And that's where, we're calling on all partners to actually work with us to embed this trust layer in the stack as we can jointly help developers unlock more value and scale, even from the model perspective, from the vector DB perspective, from the agentic evals, uh, agentic framework perspective.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":37,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"To your point, the same kind of work we've already done with Databricks and Google Cloud and others and definitely an opportunity to continue to expand that and have Galileo continue to form this trust layer across the ecosystem. Atin, how about yourself? Are there any other particular collaborations that you foresee or want to pursue?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":38,"time":"29:00","seconds":1740,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"I mean, anything that gets us closer to the user is a valuable collaboration in my opinion. like one of the issues has been that a lot of the, even the industrial research is sort of the backbone of it is academic benchmarks and, uh, you know, not, not to throw shade at academia at all. I mean, they're doing fantastic work. In fact, a lot of this work Revolution comes from universities and academia, but what it's lacking is industrial benchmarks and, standards which are more practical for industry use cases. So any kind of partnership that helps us get closer to developers or acts as a channel to thousands of developers so that we can connect the dots and sort of navigate an ever changing tool scape. and ecosystem. I think that will really help us sort of connect the dots and it'll be great for Galileo to build holistic evaluations that, you know, work for many use cases, many users.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":39,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Excellent. Well, guys have very much enjoyed having a chance to connect with you here to kick off 2025.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":40,"time":"30:00","seconds":1800,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"If you could close with one piece of advice to businesses and engineers who are looking to leverage AI in 2025, what would that piece of advice be? Yash, if you want to start.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":41,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"I think the one advice and I'll, I'll, uh, I'll kind of harp on my point of Establishing rigor in the workflows. when we're adopting, AI in our applications, it's very easy to build a cool POC and start to launch it out there. but not having that rigor is the big mistake that most, most people make. So however you want to implement it, one big advice would be start quantifying the behavior of your application into metrics early on, because that is going to be essential as you scale these applications.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":42,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"How about you, Atin??","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":43,"time":"31:00","seconds":1860,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Get Galileo for your LLM evaluation needs, really. I mean, that's my advice. but anyway, on a serious note, I think I truly second Yash's point about just the rigor is completely and grossly been missing. And that has been kind of the bane of the developers experience where they have this magic ball in their hand which can do so much. The possibilities are endless. And it's so easy to get to a prototype so quickly And then everything falls apart in shambles because you don't have a robust evaluation framework and, there's so many issues to cite, right, like just the discrepancy between the data that you test with versus the real world. Data that hits your application, the cost and the scale of your evaluation methodologies, including like manual eyeballing, like there's no dollar value to it. But the amount of time it takes, it's just impractical and untenable. So the need for robust evaluation is the sort of the unlocking thing. Power. It's kind of like going back 10 years, right? The one big thing was missing in massive cloud adoption was security. And once there were security solutions, it was just free flow. Cloud became a universal thing. I think that's the same thing for AI is evaluations.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":44,"time":"32:00","seconds":1920,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Fantastic.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":45,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Well, thank you both so much for joining me to kick off season two of Chain of Thought. And for our listeners, we are so excited to be back this year with you. We hope you've been enjoying the show. What we would love is why don't you let us know what else you would like to see. Is there a guest you want us to have on? Is there a topic you want us to cover? Are we wrong about something and you need to tell us? Let us know. We have open comments on Spotify. You can reach out to us on LinkedIn. You can reach out to us on X slash Twitter. Uh, we'd love to hear from you and hope you're all are having a fantastic start to the year and Atin Yash. Thanks again for joining me.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":46,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Thanks, Conor. Looking forward to an amazing season two of the podcast. And yes, it's such an exciting space. please comment, give us suggestions. uh, you know, we can bring in the experts here. this is meant to be a point where we discuss the most important things, for Gen AI. So yeah, looking forward to, a great season two, Conor. and, welcome to 2025.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":47,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Love it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development","episode":9,"guid":"938deefd-aed5-47a0-b91e-b160f44ce6e1","episodeTitle":"AI in 2025: Agents & The Rise of Evaluation-Driven Development | Galileo's Yash Sheth & Atindriyo Sanyal","publishedAt":"2025-01-15","segmentIndex":48,"time":"33:00","seconds":1980,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Thank you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/9-ai-in-2025-agents-and-the-rise-of-evaluation-driven-development/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt","episode":8,"guid":"52c718ae-dc0c-4ab7-b766-343900aba49f","episodeTitle":"AI Infrastructure & the Evolution of RAG | Weaviate's Bob van Luijt","publishedAt":"2025-01-08","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"If you're a founder listening to this, this is the time to, verticalize around these kind of solutions. So what I just described, If you do that around, finance, insurance, and God knows what, this is the time to build it. And it's not a silver bullet, but it's also not the time to be too skeptical about it, because people are building, people are successful. No. No, I'm talking actual dollars coming in right? it's it's unbelievable. It's going very fast So this is the time to do it. So silver bullet no, but optimistic about the use case because a lot of serendipity will, will happen. you will add a lot of value to companies buying from you or companies where you're bringing it, and maybe not a hundred percent, but if you solve 80% of this problem, you're gonna make a lot of people very happy.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt","episode":8,"guid":"52c718ae-dc0c-4ab7-b766-343900aba49f","episodeTitle":"AI Infrastructure & the Evolution of RAG | Weaviate's Bob van Luijt","publishedAt":"2025-01-08","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:57","seconds":57,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Welcome back to season two of Chain of Thought. I'm your host, Conor Bronsdon, and today we're diving deep into the evolution of rag architecture and AI infrastructure with Bob van Luijt, CEO, and co-founder of Weaviate Bob, welcome back to the show.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt","episode":8,"guid":"52c718ae-dc0c-4ab7-b766-343900aba49f","episodeTitle":"AI Infrastructure & the Evolution of RAG | Weaviate's Bob van Luijt","publishedAt":"2025-01-08","segmentIndex":2,"time":"1:12","seconds":72,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"Well, thanks for having me. It's great to be here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt","episode":8,"guid":"52c718ae-dc0c-4ab7-b766-343900aba49f","episodeTitle":"AI Infrastructure & the Evolution of RAG | Weaviate's Bob van Luijt","publishedAt":"2025-01-08","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:14","seconds":74,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, it's always fantastic having these conversations with you because not only are you someone who has a deep background on software engineering, has now spent years in the industry, you obviously shared some amazing thoughts with us, in season one of Chain of Thought around AI agents back in October, for those who haven't listened, check out episode two of Chain of Thought for that conversation. But even since then, it feels like there's been so much of this change in just a couple of months. And I won't posture. The Evolution of AI Infrastructure","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt","episode":8,"guid":"52c718ae-dc0c-4ab7-b766-343900aba49f","episodeTitle":"AI Infrastructure & the Evolution of RAG | Weaviate's Bob van Luijt","publishedAt":"2025-01-08","segmentIndex":4,"time":"1:43","seconds":103,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I think there are many of us, myself included, that feel kind of constantly behind in our learning with the rapid pace of capability change that we're seeing within AI yet, since co founding Weaviate almost, I guess, a little over five years ago now, focusing initially on embeddings, you and Weaviate both have managed to constantly adapt and grow. And today Weaviate is an entire AI native database for the new generation of AI applications. Empowering developers around the world to build AI applications. How have you successfully navigated this rapid pace of change within AI?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt","episode":8,"guid":"52c718ae-dc0c-4ab7-b766-343900aba49f","episodeTitle":"AI Infrastructure & the Evolution of RAG | Weaviate's Bob van Luijt","publishedAt":"2025-01-08","segmentIndex":5,"time":"2:18","seconds":138,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"It's a, it's funny when you say five years, it's like, that's true. It's five years already. I think what the most important thing that we've learned when, when you look at a new paradigm, like in this case, AI, is you need to answer the question, how do the developers work with the technology? Right. So let me give you a very simple example, right? So, for example, in the, during the web, the, when the web came up and a piece of infrastructure that were developed around that, then. We saw a lot of JavaScript. Now, you might say, well, that's obvious, right? Well, in hindsight, that's obvious. Because in the early days, on the back end side, there was a lot of Ruby, and there was a lot of JavaScript. So, what we see today is that there's a lot of Python for developers. So then the question is, how does the, technology evolve around that? How do people adopt it? How do they use it? How do they build? Those kind of questions. And that is just one. Of many. so what you constantly try to do is like, how do people build, what is the language that they use or in a more fancy way, It's like, what's the nomenclature that they adopt, right? So the fact that what we today call RAG, we had that already in Weaviate in a way that we call it generative search. And then we saw that people adopted RAG, because it was in one of the research papers. so then, you know, you just adopt to that language. So in the product itself, nothing changed. It was just how we talked about it and how we positioned it. so to answer your question, it's mostly about like constantly having the dialogue with users, developers, customers, and so on and so forth. It's like, how do they use it? And how do you lean into that? And, that's basically my answer.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt","episode":8,"guid":"52c718ae-dc0c-4ab7-b766-343900aba49f","episodeTitle":"AI Infrastructure & the Evolution of RAG | Weaviate's Bob van Luijt","publishedAt":"2025-01-08","segmentIndex":6,"time":"4:00","seconds":240,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Has your perspective on how to approach these problems shifted as you've grown in and kind of learned and done everything with Weaviate over these last five years? Navigating Rapid Changes in AI","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt","episode":8,"guid":"52c718ae-dc0c-4ab7-b766-343900aba49f","episodeTitle":"AI Infrastructure & the Evolution of RAG | Weaviate's Bob van Luijt","publishedAt":"2025-01-08","segmentIndex":7,"time":"4:13","seconds":253,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"So the first thing that I still cannot wrap my head around is how big it is. AI. It's like, to give you a simple example is I was at AWS reinvent, the fact that you can walk down, a, trade show with so many companies somehow talking about AI or doing something with that, that I can walk down the trade floor and see other companies flashing our logo as they integrate. That is something that is unbelievable how big it is. So I'm still trying to get used to that. The thing that I, that I also learned that is because it's so big and so massive you really can figure out who your, USP is, right? So who do you want to help and who do you want to serve? And In the early days, like in the really early, early days, everybody who was interested in machine learning, we were like, Hey, you know, we can help you that has changed, right? So it's more, targeted to what we like to call the AI native builder. What does that mean? That means somebody who wants to build an AI app rather than just adding some AI features to it because you believe that AI is going to be everywhere. And that's very different. So I, you know, when I grew also in my role as a CEO, I sort of become more comfortable, guiding the team in that direction. And that comes to the benefit of the customers and the users that we have. So that is the biggest thing that has changed, I think.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt","episode":8,"guid":"52c718ae-dc0c-4ab7-b766-343900aba49f","episodeTitle":"AI Infrastructure & the Evolution of RAG | Weaviate's Bob van Luijt","publishedAt":"2025-01-08","segmentIndex":8,"time":"5:37","seconds":337,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And obviously, we're going to see more of these waves of change. AI, within the last five years, to your point, has seen major waves. Whether it's, moving from ML to Gen AI is the kind of key thing we're talking about. To the rise of Reg, and now Agents. And you've been along for that ride. Starting with entity recognition and graphics, which evolved into what we now call Graph Reg. What do you see as kind of the next stage for AI?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt","episode":8,"guid":"52c718ae-dc0c-4ab7-b766-343900aba49f","episodeTitle":"AI Infrastructure & the Evolution of RAG | Weaviate's Bob van Luijt","publishedAt":"2025-01-08","segmentIndex":9,"time":"6:03","seconds":363,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"one thing that we started to see when RAC emerged, and that people started to adopt it, not as an intellectual concept, but the people we started to build with it was that it was, it was one directional. So it is like you have a query, you retrieve some potential, documents, you send them to the generative model and you present it to the end user. That's one directional. Out of that, what we started to see were these agents, right? So agents started to emerge and one way to think about agents is that they kind of create a feedback loop. So now the model itself says like, Hey, I need more information from Weaviate or I'm going to put something back into Weaviate and where we are right now. in these agentic architectures, or agentic reg, or how you want to call it, is that, the agent can request more information. But the thing that I'm personally very excited about is what we call these feedback loops, where the agents can also put stuff back inside the database. So the biggest challenge that exists today in the world of data management is master data management, right? If you put in the wrong information in the database, it's very hard to get the right insights out. And we believe that these, we call them generative feedback loops, as part of these agentic architectures, can help to solve that problem. So we're really looking at this complete new paradigm, how we're dealing with data, combining the vector with the models, and that's actually where the name Weaviate comes from. It's like weaving the models and the database together. So we're still doubling down on that. Generative Feedback Loops and AI Native Databases","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt","episode":8,"guid":"52c718ae-dc0c-4ab7-b766-343900aba49f","episodeTitle":"AI Infrastructure & the Evolution of RAG | Weaviate's Bob van Luijt","publishedAt":"2025-01-08","segmentIndex":10,"time":"7:39","seconds":459,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Can you talk a bit more about these generative feedback loops and how you see them really being impactful over the next couple of years as people continue to build more AI apps and integrate AI into applications that already exist in today?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt","episode":8,"guid":"52c718ae-dc0c-4ab7-b766-343900aba49f","episodeTitle":"AI Infrastructure & the Evolution of RAG | Weaviate's Bob van Luijt","publishedAt":"2025-01-08","segmentIndex":11,"time":"7:53","seconds":473,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"Yeah, that's easiest explained based on an example. So, many years ago, way before I started, Weaviate, I was working asfreelance software consultant, and, I was hired by a company. it was a candy manufacturer and they had factories all over the world, right? So, and they made candy and they were selling that all over the world, big, big candy manufacturer. And one of the challenges that they had was in their master data management. They stored, data that was coming from all these different factories. And yes, they had all their standards and those kinds of things, but guess what? You know, not everything was aligned with the standards. So, I don't know, could be. You know, the way, uh, temperatures where, you know, Fahrenheit is the default, started in Fahrenheit, and where Celsius is the default in Celsius. The British wrote certain words different than American English, well, and so on and so forth, right? So a lot of stuff. the solution to that problem was people. So we just have people to go through our data, master data management and just try to solve it, right? Just change it and update it and improve it, which is undoable because data is coming in faster than these people could handle it. And so that's stuck in the back of my mind. And when these, fast forward a couple of years, when these REC, architectures started to emerge and out generative feedback loops, they don't say, what if we ask the agent to solve this problem? So we tell the agent, this is our master data management plan. And, now you solve it if there's something wrong in the database, which is fascinating because the models are now at a quality that if you have 10 data objects is if you talk, for example, about cell temperatures starting Celsius and one in Fahrenheit. It actually tells you it's probably wrong. It probably should be Celsius and, and stored in Fahrenheit. when it comes to languages, translations, and those kind of things. So, that is the, where that idea comes from and how I got excited about it. It's a completely different way of dealing with, master data management. And, native database where, you know, the models and the database are brought together. And the way that the developers interact with it is completely different. optimally suited for that, right? So that's a, that is why I got so excited about it. It's, it's RAG, just the first step, and then agents the second, and then these feedback loops the third, whereas just the, you're not prompting the model, you're basically prompting the database. It's like, this is what I want from my data, and it figures out itself which models it needs, and how to update these kind of things, what to search for. So that's that's why I'm so excited about it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt","episode":8,"guid":"52c718ae-dc0c-4ab7-b766-343900aba49f","episodeTitle":"AI Infrastructure & the Evolution of RAG | Weaviate's Bob van Luijt","publishedAt":"2025-01-08","segmentIndex":12,"time":"10:26","seconds":626,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I really like this example you're using because it highlights something which we maybe don't always think about, which is it can feel like we have these thematic waves that are coming, you know, where we've talked about reg and agents and feedback loops, gen AI more broadly, ML before that, there are more micro waves we could talk through. Often, if you're kind of taking an outsider perspective, or if you're new to the AI space, it can be hard to understand, okay, why is this new hotness now that the topic of conversation and the real answer here is that it's it's solving the next problem as each stage of AI thought or problem solving gets taken on, we go, Oh, we have this new problem to solve. We've kind of taken this new layer, and it feels like that's the mental model. That you're approaching both Weaviate and the industry with is like, okay, we've solved one layer. What's the next layer down? We can solve.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt","episode":8,"guid":"52c718ae-dc0c-4ab7-b766-343900aba49f","episodeTitle":"AI Infrastructure & the Evolution of RAG | Weaviate's Bob van Luijt","publishedAt":"2025-01-08","segmentIndex":13,"time":"11:19","seconds":679,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"Yeah, exactly. there is this knee jerk reaction, especially when the company grows, to become more conservative, right? So it's okay, now we have this AI thing and now we look back and we're gonna try to be part of something traditional because, you know, but then with AI or something. Whereas I keep telling the team, no, no, no, no, no, this is just the first step, right? Where we are right now. And now we need to hit the pedal to the metal to really just get into this new paradigm. And the paradigm is these are these agent architectures where just, if you think about it, it's very logical, right? It's like you say, okay, we now have a model that has an opinion on our data. How does it get that opinion? Well, we prompt it and it interacts at the data that we store in the database. But we should not forget that a lot of people, are very jaded, right? Because it is like the garbage in, garbage out thing is, is like. So old and oh boy, now we have another solution for it. but people see, they feel it, right? And that's why that ChatGPT moment was so important. Because that was like an eye opener. They were like, Oh, so this is the stuff you're doing. And now integrating on the infra level, it's The database with the data and the models to create these feedback loops is just the right time for it. People, they, they, they see it, they understand it. So it's the right time to really go into this new paradigm. So that's also why I'm saying like, it's not a, you could look at like vector database and that kind of stuff as part of the NoSQL paradigm. You could do that, right? But the exciting thing is the new thing that AI native paradigm, that's the new thing that comes after that, and that is people are ready to build with it. And, that's why I'm still so excited about, working on this, uh, on this product in this category.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt","episode":8,"guid":"52c718ae-dc0c-4ab7-b766-343900aba49f","episodeTitle":"AI Infrastructure & the Evolution of RAG | Weaviate's Bob van Luijt","publishedAt":"2025-01-08","segmentIndex":14,"time":"13:05","seconds":785,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I appreciate how iterative your mindset to solving these problems is and broadly, I think it aligns so closely with how the industry is thinking about. Each layer and step of AI is like, we have to keep iterating on this because, Each problem we solve opens up these new possibilities, which I think is exactly how you're describing it here. Challenges and Opportunities in AI Production","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt","episode":8,"guid":"52c718ae-dc0c-4ab7-b766-343900aba49f","episodeTitle":"AI Infrastructure & the Evolution of RAG | Weaviate's Bob van Luijt","publishedAt":"2025-01-08","segmentIndex":15,"time":"13:25","seconds":805,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And a couple of weeks ago, You had a linkedin post that went very viral, highlighting seven different popular RAG architectures. Why do you think that rapid architectural variation struck such a chord with all these AI builders?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt","episode":8,"guid":"52c718ae-dc0c-4ab7-b766-343900aba49f","episodeTitle":"AI Infrastructure & the Evolution of RAG | Weaviate's Bob van Luijt","publishedAt":"2025-01-08","segmentIndex":16,"time":"13:41","seconds":821,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"Yeah, so the question we get the most is, I can see it, I get it. Can you help me do it? How do we do this? And these kind of posts are an invitation to developers like, hey, we can help you. Look, these are the seven methods and here is like follow up documentation, blog posts videos, god knows what to help you do this. I find it very important that we keep this this in open hand to help the folks like we're here to help you build these kinds of applications. And I believe that that's the reason why these posts do so well, because people need help. And this shows like, hey, this is a way how to do it. These are the seven ways how to do it. Which one fits your use case, right? And because we should not forget that, Yes, there's a lot of innovation has been happening in the past years. We have a lot of early adopters, but it's now the time for the majority, right? So the early majority is starting to adopt. Just, you know, random developer at, Enterprise X gets an assignment. I think, hey, wait a second, I can solve this with RAG.. And we're here to help these people to build these kinds of applications. And that's the reason why I believe these posts do so well. Because it's just an open invitation to start building.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt","episode":8,"guid":"52c718ae-dc0c-4ab7-b766-343900aba49f","episodeTitle":"AI Infrastructure & the Evolution of RAG | Weaviate's Bob van Luijt","publishedAt":"2025-01-08","segmentIndex":17,"time":"15:04","seconds":904,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And it feels like we're also seeing this transition from experimentation to actual productionization of applications. How are you seeing these different architectures actually being implemented as you help AI builders to execute on their ideas?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt","episode":8,"guid":"52c718ae-dc0c-4ab7-b766-343900aba49f","episodeTitle":"AI Infrastructure & the Evolution of RAG | Weaviate's Bob van Luijt","publishedAt":"2025-01-08","segmentIndex":18,"time":"15:23","seconds":923,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"Yeah. So for us as a company, the last year, 2024, What's the year of going to production? How do we notice that? Just, you know, based on the skill we see at customers and the questions that they ask. So one of the things that we've learned last year because of people going to production is that if your use case stays relatively small, you can do anything you want. With the database, right? You don't really notice it, in your cloud bill or that kind of stuff, these are relatively small use cases. But with the use cases growing, there's this whole operational effort around the database that starts to, emerge. So one thing that we've learned is that a lot of the indexes, right? So the indices that we have in the database, they sit in memory. Right. And that sometimes you need that for e commerce use case and that kind of stuff. But, we also got more and more customers who said like, well, for our use case, we have so many data objects. If we store that in memory, it's just, we can't make a business case. It's like we can't, we can do the POC and prove that it works. But now if you want to scale it to production, we can't do it anymore. So last year we introduced the storage tiers. So now you can tell Weaviate keep it in memory. Or get a little bit of a penalty in speed, but store it in disk or even in S3. And that's a fraction of the price. And the penalty is lower speed. So what you can do in a handful of milliseconds, now you, it's a little bit, slower. It's still in the milliseconds, but it's significantly cheaper because we saw a lot of these rec use cases have a lot of tenants, right? Think about like document search, email clients, those kind of customers that we have that needed that. So that is a sign of production, right? That people ask these kind of questions. So are a lot of our, innovation last year Was, based on our bigger customers and asks they had of things that they had in, that they were noticing production. To give you one more example, we've implemented something called acorn that comes right off the scientific press, if you will. And that is a way to deal with filtering in vector search. And now you might say, well, okay, yeah, whatever. Right. But the thing is we have customers with billions of e commerce products and all of a sudden, if they had low results. The queries became significantly slower because we didn't optimize that filtered search. If you have a million products, you're not going to notice that. But if you go up to a billion, you start to notice it. So, What changed from the year before that to last year was that a lot of innovation again was customer driven, where people say, Hey, we're going to go to production. It's too slow. Improve this, right? They didn't notice that with a million, but now with a billion, they notice it. So those kind of things we started to see, and that was proof for us like. People are ready to production. They're scaling up, they're bringing it to their own customers. They start to talk about business cases, right? So like, you know, what's the dollar, how many dollars do we need to invest to make one of our customers, that kind of stuff. And in 2023, that was not the case.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt","episode":8,"guid":"52c718ae-dc0c-4ab7-b766-343900aba49f","episodeTitle":"AI Infrastructure & the Evolution of RAG | Weaviate's Bob van Luijt","publishedAt":"2025-01-08","segmentIndex":19,"time":"18:26","seconds":1106,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Absolutely. And I'll say on our end at Galileo, we're certainly seeing that on the evaluation side too, where if you're just in experimentation, you're not really feeling the pain. And then as you move to production, you realize, Oh, like I should have had this all along the way so that I didn't magnify my problems. That's so that I could build trust my customers when I actually go to production. And I mean, obviously we're seeing a huge shift in the market as people are saying, evals need to be a base for Part of how we build AI applications. and it seems like there's a lot of these AI infrastructure decisions that are being made now where we're realizing as we go to production, Oh, we actually have to go back and adjust how we're building this in the first place.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt","episode":8,"guid":"52c718ae-dc0c-4ab7-b766-343900aba49f","episodeTitle":"AI Infrastructure & the Evolution of RAG | Weaviate's Bob van Luijt","publishedAt":"2025-01-08","segmentIndex":20,"time":"19:02","seconds":1142,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"Yeah, exactly. The Importance of Documentation and Developer Experience","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt","episode":8,"guid":"52c718ae-dc0c-4ab7-b766-343900aba49f","episodeTitle":"AI Infrastructure & the Evolution of RAG | Weaviate's Bob van Luijt","publishedAt":"2025-01-08","segmentIndex":21,"time":"19:03","seconds":1143,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"And that goes back to your first question, because one thing that I find fascinating is that. The point of entry for developers, of course, you guys know this as well, is through documentation, right? So that's the point of entry. And if you make something very lean and very simple, right, you have like very minimalistic documentation, and it's very easy for people. to get started. Then, when they start it, and then you get this move to production, it's like, Oh, wow, this is great, but we need this feature and we need that feature. Great, sure, we can do that. So you have these features. And now, your documentation grows a little bit, right? So, because now you need to also explain these features. So, by the time you get to production, like a production quality database in our case, Your documentation has grown with that and we have a whole team that is just concerned with managing that, right? So making sure that you keep all the goodness of this easy to get started in five minutes thing. But that you're also showing people like, Hey, and by the way, when you go to production, you get all these cool features like multi tenancy features, data offloading features and that kind of stuff. And balancing that is part of what we've learned last year. that's hard. you constantly have to catch 22, like, are we going to show them all the stuff we can do at the risk that it might come across a lot of information, but that they. Get the trust as a developer like oh, we can do that or are we gonna do the other the other way around and then later Show them. Oh, by the way, we can also do all that other stuff and That's a fascinating Catch 22 because I believe so often developer experience is people put that equate that with Lean documentation, like just one, two pages of documentation. And I'm not so sure about that. Because if I use a product and I see that there's detailed documentation that I know when I scale this up, they can handle this. That gives me a good experience. And I'm willing to just learn a little bit more from before I run it. So, those kind of things are also things we've learned this year. And I find it a fascinating experience. process because as the database evolves, documentation evolves with that, clients evolves and evolve and that kind of stuff.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt","episode":8,"guid":"52c718ae-dc0c-4ab7-b766-343900aba49f","episodeTitle":"AI Infrastructure & the Evolution of RAG | Weaviate's Bob van Luijt","publishedAt":"2025-01-08","segmentIndex":22,"time":"21:22","seconds":1282,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I agree with you. I think it's crucial to have good summarization because I don't want to jump into a product and feel confused as I start out, Whereas if it's like, Hey, here's a clear route in. Let me get to that. Wow. Moment rapidly. And then you give me depth to explore. I'm much more likely to be successful with the product.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt","episode":8,"guid":"52c718ae-dc0c-4ab7-b766-343900aba49f","episodeTitle":"AI Infrastructure & the Evolution of RAG | Weaviate's Bob van Luijt","publishedAt":"2025-01-08","segmentIndex":23,"time":"21:40","seconds":1300,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"Yeah, but the opposite is also true. So if you have that wow moment, but there's nowhere to show them, Oh, and by the way, we got your back when you scale up. That also has a negative DX effect because people are like, Okay, this is a great thing to get started with or to play around with, but I'm not going to use the technology to go to production. And I think that has not changed. With AI, is that the way we make money as a business is still over volume, right? We Production people, so if you put, if you add something to a database people pay you to make sure that a day later It's still there Right? And, and that they can retrieve it at a convenient speed for their use case that's what they pay you for. So you need all those tools and functionalities to do that. So it, that's a fascinating, a catch 22.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt","episode":8,"guid":"52c718ae-dc0c-4ab7-b766-343900aba49f","episodeTitle":"AI Infrastructure & the Evolution of RAG | Weaviate's Bob van Luijt","publishedAt":"2025-01-08","segmentIndex":24,"time":"22:30","seconds":1350,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Unlock evaluation intelligence for your AI team with Galileo, the industry leading platform for evaluating Gen AI applications. Trusted by AI leaders like HP, Databricks, Comcast, Twilio, Headspace, CollegeVine, and many more, and powered by our proprietary Luna Evaluation Suite, Galileo enables evaluation driven development and observability for your AI systems. Learn more at Galileo. ai","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt","episode":8,"guid":"52c718ae-dc0c-4ab7-b766-343900aba49f","episodeTitle":"AI Infrastructure & the Evolution of RAG | Weaviate's Bob van Luijt","publishedAt":"2025-01-08","segmentIndex":25,"time":"22:59","seconds":1379,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"As this shift from. experimentation 2023 to production use cases 2024 and increasingly even more productionization 2025 has occurred. Are there particular themes that you're seeing around which use cases are going to production first among this early adopter set?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt","episode":8,"guid":"52c718ae-dc0c-4ab7-b766-343900aba49f","episodeTitle":"AI Infrastructure & the Evolution of RAG | Weaviate's Bob van Luijt","publishedAt":"2025-01-08","segmentIndex":26,"time":"23:17","seconds":1397,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"the first use cases that we saw, go to production was just more large scale, just search, right? So, and then mostly hybrid search. But the thing that we saw immediately after that, that I was very excited about, was what we like to refer to as these multi tenancy use cases. So for example, think about an email client where people say like, well, we have, I don't know, a billion emails, but distributed over a hundred thousand customers. We don't want them to sit in the same vector index. They need to all be separate, right? Multiple tenants and in an ideal world we can also offload them if somebody's not using it So that it's cheaper for us to operate this large scale, operation and that's something I became very very excited about because That was also part Of new stuff that people are building with the models, right? Thanks to the models, right? And better search and better recommendation. That's great. That's nice. And we have some amazing customers there and we're happy that we can serve them. But I'm also very excited about that new stuff. And turns out that people who build RAG applications for their customers, because in the end we're like a B2B solution, Was that they said, we, that, that my customers went like, we have a lot of customers and we want to efficiently store all the data and turns out that for their individual customers, they might not have a billion data objects, so they have a billion in total, but it's distributed differently and we want to manage that efficiently. So that's, it goes back to the storage tiers. That's why we've introduced that. And that's now how the database is evolving in again, a really truly unique. piece of technology that's not a replication of old stuff with something new on it, but something really new. And that's also why we start to refer more and more to it as AI native database, because we really want to help these AI builders and not just do some search add on or something.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt","episode":8,"guid":"52c718ae-dc0c-4ab7-b766-343900aba49f","episodeTitle":"AI Infrastructure & the Evolution of RAG | Weaviate's Bob van Luijt","publishedAt":"2025-01-08","segmentIndex":27,"time":"25:15","seconds":1515,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"As we see this new group of AI builders coming in, these early majority folks who have seen the experimentation, seen these first use cases and say, Oh, Hey, I need to take this on. I need to learn this. Are there new challenges that are emerging around how we get them into widespread production adoption?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt","episode":8,"guid":"52c718ae-dc0c-4ab7-b766-343900aba49f","episodeTitle":"AI Infrastructure & the Evolution of RAG | Weaviate's Bob van Luijt","publishedAt":"2025-01-08","segmentIndex":28,"time":"25:34","seconds":1534,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"Well, there, so what, something that starts to emerge is that the way that people build. so let me give you a very simple example here. So a simple example is chunking, right? So somebody has a use case where they say, Hey, want people to search through PDFs? Okay, great. How do you do that? How do you chunk a PDF in such a way that if you retrieve it from the database, Pipe it through the model, for example, direct to show the right, the relevant answers. That's actually turns out that's hard to do. Let's say that I have a public document about, Apple's revenue, right? And I say like, what were, was the revenue in Q2, 2024? And I say like, what was the revenue in Q2, 2024? Then if I look at that single PDF, the only way that I might able to recognize that it's Apple is that it has the little Apple logo in the top. Then it only talks about revenue numbers, but in nowhere in the text says, Oh, this is Apple's revenue in Q2 of 2023. So what we need to do is we deal with that. we need to represent the pages with multiple embeddings, right? and we need to be able to store all of them. We need to be able to retrieve them in a way that we, see fit for that specific use case. Becomes pretty elaborate pretty quickly. So that's a more complex chunking strategy. So, again, that goes back to that viral post that we talked about. We start to post more and more of those kind of things, again to help these developers to build these kind of things and now knowledge is starting to, develop inside these developers who become knowledgeable about building these AI native, cases. So that's just one pragmatic example how we see that in practice. Future Predictions and Paradigm Shifts in AI","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt","episode":8,"guid":"52c718ae-dc0c-4ab7-b766-343900aba49f","episodeTitle":"AI Infrastructure & the Evolution of RAG | Weaviate's Bob van Luijt","publishedAt":"2025-01-08","segmentIndex":29,"time":"27:12","seconds":1632,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Are there particular opportunities that you're seeing around this next stage of AI infrastructure, or predictions that you have for what you expect to see around AI infrastructure in 2025 to help solve some of these novel challenges?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt","episode":8,"guid":"52c718ae-dc0c-4ab7-b766-343900aba49f","episodeTitle":"AI Infrastructure & the Evolution of RAG | Weaviate's Bob van Luijt","publishedAt":"2025-01-08","segmentIndex":30,"time":"27:26","seconds":1646,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"One way to think about it is that you can, everything that people are building, you can chuck it up into, you know, put it in two buckets. So one bucket is just doing stuff better, existing stuff better. And it often evolves around search and recommendation, right? A lot of value created. It's great, right? So it's like, okay, you use vector embeddings to eat more, you know, better retrieve information and data, that kind of stuff. But we have a lot of customers there. the thing that I'm very interested in is the other bucket. And the other bucket is the new stuff, right? The AI native stuff, if you will. And that example of the agentic architectures. For example, through the generative feedback loops, where we basically have our master data management, documents to a model. It's like, hey, you're hooked up to this database. Every data object that gets added to this database, check it, validate it, throw a warning, throw an error, fix it for me, whatever you want to do. So rather than having humans in the loop to fix that kind of stuff, we now have these models to do our master data management. And I, I, again, I would like to highlight the master data management The market is huge there, right? It's like if the search market is tiny compared to that. And that's what I believe that these AI native databases like Greenfield enable, right? So yes, a lot of customers, a lot of users in the first bucket, which makes sense because that's where the market is. But I believe that we need to lean forward and show the market that this is all great, this stuff here in this bucket, but look what we can do here. and I hope that this is the year where these agentic architectures really take a foothold and that we see the production case for those now as well.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt","episode":8,"guid":"52c718ae-dc0c-4ab7-b766-343900aba49f","episodeTitle":"AI Infrastructure & the Evolution of RAG | Weaviate's Bob van Luijt","publishedAt":"2025-01-08","segmentIndex":31,"time":"29:02","seconds":1742,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Are there any particular gaps that you see where you're like, Hey, I want, I want to hear that folks are working on this problem, or this is something that needs to get solved to unlock this next layer.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt","episode":8,"guid":"52c718ae-dc0c-4ab7-b766-343900aba49f","episodeTitle":"AI Infrastructure & the Evolution of RAG | Weaviate's Bob van Luijt","publishedAt":"2025-01-08","segmentIndex":32,"time":"29:14","seconds":1754,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"So. Funnily enough, I wouldn't give a technological or like a tech answer to that question. It's more a almost a psychological answer because it's paradigm shift. Since we've been storing data in what I believe IBM had the first commercial database way before Oracle, right? Since we've been storing in the data in these databases until today, we have been dealing with these challenges of like garbage in garbage out. Proposing something thanks to the models to fix that or potentially fix that is a huge paradigm shift. And having people get a heads up what's possible and having the model solve that rather than people is a huge paradigm shift. So it's more getting people to accept it and to adopt it. That's a bigger thing than the actual. Technological challenges, right? So because we can do it, we know we can do it. Can we, is it a silver bullet? No, of course not. But it brings us. Damn far, right? You know, it's we can do a lot with it, but then it's often people in these businesses to accept it. This is how we're going to do it. And that's new. So I think this year is also a lot off more, you know, evangelizing, showing people the value. We have the first customers who are daring to take that step, right? So if we look at our full transparency, 95 percent of our customers sit in the first bucket, But now that's, that's growing rapidly. Now we're not where we wanted to be yet. So, that's hopefully for this year that we're going to grow. That it's truly becoming AI native. That really people use the models in combination with the database to build new applications or enhance mass data management challenges that they might have. In a completely new way. And that's a paradigm shift. And that's not a technological challenge anymore, but it's now psychological challenge that people are willing to take that bet.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt","episode":8,"guid":"52c718ae-dc0c-4ab7-b766-343900aba49f","episodeTitle":"AI Infrastructure & the Evolution of RAG | Weaviate's Bob van Luijt","publishedAt":"2025-01-08","segmentIndex":33,"time":"31:13","seconds":1873,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"To your point about the psychological challenge of this paradigm shift. Final Thoughts and Encouragement to Build","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt","episode":8,"guid":"52c718ae-dc0c-4ab7-b766-343900aba49f","episodeTitle":"AI Infrastructure & the Evolution of RAG | Weaviate's Bob van Luijt","publishedAt":"2025-01-08","segmentIndex":34,"time":"31:16","seconds":1876,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"We've talked a lot in this conversation about iteration and the need to just keep building and keep layering these improvements on, but I think a lot of the expectation from outside of the industry or for folks just getting in is, Hey, this is a silver bullet and this is just going to solve my problem. But the reality is there's a lot of work to be done to set you up for success. It takes work to get from, Hey, this is an experiment to production. We're not at a point where you can simply say, Hey, here's the agent, turn it loose, it's done. There's work to do to make sure the right guardrails are in place, that you are ensuring that data is accurate. you have to avoid that garbage and garbage out problem. As you mentioned. how do you think AI builders should be. thinking through this next stage of this rapid evolution. What's the mindset they should bring to avoid over focusing on silver bullet problems and instead actually find problems that they can solve?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt","episode":8,"guid":"52c718ae-dc0c-4ab7-b766-343900aba49f","episodeTitle":"AI Infrastructure & the Evolution of RAG | Weaviate's Bob van Luijt","publishedAt":"2025-01-08","segmentIndex":35,"time":"32:11","seconds":1931,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"I think because of course I don't know the answer because if I would know the answer, then, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Right. So, but what I do think is that this is the time. if you're a developer listening to this Podcast and you work at a large bank or something This is the time to take that AI approach, right? Not, next year, but now you can do it, right? So now you can start building, build that expertise and bring that to your company. If you're a founder listening to this, this is the time to, verticalize around these kind of solutions. So what I just described, If you do that around, finance, insurance, and God knows what, this is the time to build it. And indeed, it's not a silver bullet, but it's also not the time to be too skeptical about it, because people are building, people are successful. I'm an angel investor in like two dozen companies or something. And what I see people, and most, most of uh, uh, uh, Weaviate users. So. How I see them be successful and I'm not talking about successful in Open source downloads. No. No, I'm talking actual dollars coming in right? it's it's unbelievable. It's going very fast So this is the time to do it. So silver bullet no, but optimistic about the use case because a lot of serendipity will, will, will happen. you will add a lot of value to companies buying from you or companies where you're bringing it, and maybe not a hundred percent, but if you solve 80% of this problem, you're gonna make a lot of people very happy.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt","episode":8,"guid":"52c718ae-dc0c-4ab7-b766-343900aba49f","episodeTitle":"AI Infrastructure & the Evolution of RAG | Weaviate's Bob van Luijt","publishedAt":"2025-01-08","segmentIndex":36,"time":"33:49","seconds":2029,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, absolutely. And you learn a lot more by jumping in now versus waiting. The sooner you start","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt","episode":8,"guid":"52c718ae-dc0c-4ab7-b766-343900aba49f","episodeTitle":"AI Infrastructure & the Evolution of RAG | Weaviate's Bob van Luijt","publishedAt":"2025-01-08","segmentIndex":37,"time":"33:54","seconds":2034,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"this is the time. This is the time to start building. It's a, I cannot, I, I can't say that often enough. This is the time. It's like you don't have to wait anymore. The tooling is there. well, you guys know this of course. It's like, this is a time to build. so that's why I'm excited about it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt","episode":8,"guid":"52c718ae-dc0c-4ab7-b766-343900aba49f","episodeTitle":"AI Infrastructure & the Evolution of RAG | Weaviate's Bob van Luijt","publishedAt":"2025-01-08","segmentIndex":38,"time":"34:11","seconds":2051,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I love it. Conclusion","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt","episode":8,"guid":"52c718ae-dc0c-4ab7-b766-343900aba49f","episodeTitle":"AI Infrastructure & the Evolution of RAG | Weaviate's Bob van Luijt","publishedAt":"2025-01-08","segmentIndex":39,"time":"34:12","seconds":2052,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Bob, thanks for sitting down for this fascinating conversation and for sharing your perspective. Where can folks learn more about Weaviate and keep up with your team's work?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt","episode":8,"guid":"52c718ae-dc0c-4ab7-b766-343900aba49f","episodeTitle":"AI Infrastructure & the Evolution of RAG | Weaviate's Bob van Luijt","publishedAt":"2025-01-08","segmentIndex":40,"time":"34:19","seconds":2059,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"the, just the website. weaviate.io. We do a lot of stuff on socials and then especially LinkedIn. So if you follow our company or reach out to me on LinkedIn You post us like almost daily about this kind of stuff So if you follow us on our journey, you can sign up to our newsletter Slack channel that kind of stuff Database open source so you can start playing around with it. So, just, you know, you can start if you are traditionally through a Google search or more modern to a, uh, search through a model, uh, about Weaviate but, we're everywhere.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt","episode":8,"guid":"52c718ae-dc0c-4ab7-b766-343900aba49f","episodeTitle":"AI Infrastructure & the Evolution of RAG | Weaviate's Bob van Luijt","publishedAt":"2025-01-08","segmentIndex":41,"time":"34:53","seconds":2093,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Fantastic. Bob, thanks so much for coming back.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt","episode":8,"guid":"52c718ae-dc0c-4ab7-b766-343900aba49f","episodeTitle":"AI Infrastructure & the Evolution of RAG | Weaviate's Bob van Luijt","publishedAt":"2025-01-08","segmentIndex":42,"time":"34:57","seconds":2097,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"you. Bye.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt","episode":8,"guid":"52c718ae-dc0c-4ab7-b766-343900aba49f","episodeTitle":"AI Infrastructure & the Evolution of RAG | Weaviate's Bob van Luijt","publishedAt":"2025-01-08","segmentIndex":43,"time":"34:58","seconds":2098,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Awesome. And that is all for this episode of Chain of Thought. Thanks for listening, everyone. And don't forget to like, subscribe, and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts. And as Bob said, check us out on LinkedIn. Check out Weaviate on LinkedIn. We'd love to hear from you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/8-ai-infrastructure-and-the-evolution-of-rag-weaviates-bob-van-luijt/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":0,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Vinnie Giarrusso","text":"I think that there's a lot of worry about agents taking work away and resulting in like a less personal experience. But actually, I think it's, I think it's the opposite, I think that there's a huge opportunity here to use these assistants in taking away the boring technical work and the sort of like mundane tasks,that would ordinarily be done by a human. Instead of letting them take that over and like what the human can really focus on is that human to human interaction,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":1,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Welcome back to chain of thought for the last episode of season one. I'm your host, Conor Bronsdon. And today we have a special guest, Vinnie Giarrusso, principal software engineer at Twilio, Vinnie, welcome back to the show.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":2,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Vinnie Giarrusso","text":"Hey, thanks, Conor. Thanks for having me here. Excited to hang out today.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:00","seconds":60,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, I'm really excited to have this conversation with you, learn more about the work you're doing at Twilio with AI agents and to have you back on the podcast for listeners who may have listened to last week's episode, we actually featured Vinnie as part of our panel of guests at Galileo's productionized 2. 0 conference. he had conversations about applied AI lessons from deploying AI at enterprise scale. and his work at Twilio, but there's lots more that Vinnie's working on around Twilio's AI assistance.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":4,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Can you start by giving us some background on how Twilio is currently using AI agents?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":5,"time":"2:00","seconds":120,"speaker":"Vinnie Giarrusso","text":"so Twilio, we're building a low code,autonomous agent platform. And so what that really means is we're building a set of tools for our developers to deploy their AI systems at scale. Cool. and leverage all the other cool Twilio stuff that they're, you know, used to getting from us. You know, we provide APIs on top of this. We manage the deployment. We manage the invocations. we manage all the sort of like backend,heavy stuff for you. so really what we're focusing on is providing a lot of value to just getting an agent out there,testing it, asking it questions around your domain and just seeing, how fast people can go from zero to one, essentially.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":6,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"it sounds like Twilio is really empowering its customers to build their own agents with this framework you're establishing. Can you add a little depth around how exactly Twilio's tools provide for this purpose?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":7,"time":"3:00","seconds":180,"speaker":"Vinnie Giarrusso","text":"Twilio's agent platform is, like a fully featured agent platform. So we give you, the ability to use tools, we give you the ability to use knowledge sources, you can upload your documents, you can crawl web pages,you can do all of that sort of thing. We handle the memory management for you. and on top of all of that, we, we put an API layer in front of it as well. So you can handle all of your deployments through the API. You can do all of your uploads through the API. You can talk to your assistant through the API. we actually call them Twilio AI assistants. The, the industry term is, is agents. but yeah, I mean, so, so we provide all that on top of, you know, the, the Twilio API. And then, you know, the other great thing about Twilio is we have all the channels as well. So not only do we have this,AI platform that we're building. So that our, our developers can get in contact with, with their customers. But we're doing it in a way so that you can use the same Twilio channels that you're used to using, SMS, voice, WhatsApp,conversations, all of that sort of thing. all of those are natively integrated into our platform as well. So not only is it a platform for, building the agent, but also that next step as well. It's like, what do you, okay, so now you have this agent that can do some cool stuff like. How do you get it to talk to people? Um, the answer is the same way that, you know, the rest of your Twilio apps work,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":8,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I like that Twilio is differentiating a little bit from the rest of the industry and saying these are AI assistants. But I want to learn a bit more about how Twilio actually arrived at this approach and this tech stack to build agents. What were the lessons you learned along the way and how did you get to where AI assistants are today?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":9,"time":"4:00","seconds":240,"speaker":"Vinnie Giarrusso","text":"regarding the assistant versus agent thing,that definitely was an intentional decision on, on our part to lean more towards,assistants. we really feel like, especially at the beginning, these agents are going to play sort of a side by side role,with humans. So these agents necessarily aren't going to,replace the human role, but instead sort of augment that human role with additional capabilities that give it sort of like superhuman powers. and that's, that's sort of how we're, we're thinking about it and we're framing it. they can interact with the humans,who were maybe tasked for, accepting or rejecting,certain actions by that agent or however you have the setup. that's where our mind is around, uh, assistants versus agents.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":10,"time":"5:00","seconds":300,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, I think you're, you're spot on that there are these stages that are happening. And a lot of folks want to jump to this idea of fully autonomous agents that are The equivalent of high level employees. And there's a lot of work to do along the way. a lot of the hype around AI has been that, Oh, it's this magical solve for you, but there's still a lot of work to be done to set up non deterministic systems in a way that actually works for businesses.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":11,"time":"6:00","seconds":360,"speaker":"Vinnie Giarrusso","text":"I mean, we see agents that are fully capable of doing amazing things today. You know, there are, of agents that can use computers. You know, recent releases of agents that can generate videos and long form videos and things like that. and that's amazing. I love that innovation. Like, that is truly incredible to see some of the innovations that are coming out. But when we think about sort of like where the enterprise is sitting,the enterprise is going to be like a little bit more careful and in our approaches, we're going to be a little bit more measured and conservative and what we put out there and what we expect our agents to do. and so we're, we're really leveraging that. we know that our customers are expecting to be a little bit more careful. And, and I love this sort of like side by side, you know, with, certain parts of the industry pushing forward really quickly, other parts of the industry looking at that and saying, okay, like that's really cool, but I think that might be like a year out for us, but keep doing what you're doing. And we're going to focus on this thing over here until like all that stuff gets settled out. I think that that's probably going to be like the general trend for a little bit now. everyone is,is working with the new latest and greatest and it's pretty amazing. But when it comes to like actually getting the work done for businesses, it's a little bit of a different story. It's a little bit less of the wild west, so to speak, you know.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":12,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I know enterprises in particular have to really consider. because they already have established distribution, established trust with their customers, accuracy, trustworthiness.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":13,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"how is Twilio actually ensuring that the AI agents or assistants that are being built through its platform are accurate and trustworthy?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":14,"time":"7:00","seconds":420,"speaker":"Vinnie Giarrusso","text":"This is a tricky one for us, actually. So for us as a platform, it's not quite as straightforward as us being able to run evals and say like, this works, release it. We do do that in some cases. So we, you know, run evals on like a set of, cases that, you know, sort of generalize across, you know, some set of our customers, however,you know, we can't predict how people are going to use our platform. We can't really predict how people are going to want to use it. And so what we see happen is,and we see new use cases come in and, you know, they might use different knowledge sources than we've seen before. You know, those knowledge sources might be formatted in a different way or contain information like kind of far away from each other. and in that way, it gives us a lot of viewpoint into like what is accurate and how accuracy really relates to the specific application. because at a base level, you know, the base models, You know, we expect to accurately answer random questions, right? but for a business, those questions get very specific. Those questions can be specific to, like, you know, how much does a text message cost, in Spain, for example, right? and that's a much different question than, you know, how much does a Text message from, you know, another country, maybe. And in that way, like, accuracy is not so much, like, does the agent accurately answer the question,you know, how much is a text message, but it has to be very specific to, where the user is, and maybe the user hasn't, told them where they are. And so the agent might need to be smart enough to say, like, oh, well. I have, you know, this list of pricing, but I'm not really sure exactly what it's referring to because I'm not sure which one of these to pick. And so then the agent, you know, instead of saying, like, I don't know, or, you know, picking one at random, accuracy really comes from the agent being able to turn around then and say, like, Oh, actually I have, you know, a variety of pricing options. Pricing. Um, do you happen to know where, this is going to be located or do you happen to, have any more information about that? And so for us, like accuracy is a little bit more difficult to track down because it can come, in the form of a very specific question that gets a very specific answer, or it can come through a series of, you know, messages back and forth, how accurate is it over a course of a conversation as it's trying to figure out exactly what his job is and exactly what it's supposed to be doing here. Mm","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":15,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"really appreciate that detailed example. Since I think it illustrates well some of the challenges with agents when they get into production, there are all these edge cases that are just hard to correct for when you're building your initial wireframe and kind of getting things going and not until you start getting the different Approaches and data from users. Do you really realize, Oh, we need to correct this piece. and it speaks to the need to continually be evaluating and continually be improving upon your applications, your AI agents, are there particular . Failure modes that you've noticed as common or challenges that you're seeing that have to be addressed, whether it's in pre production or in production","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":16,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Vinnie Giarrusso","text":"s","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":17,"time":"10:00","seconds":600,"speaker":"Vinnie Giarrusso","text":"o one of the biggest challenges for us has been the sort of like rag retrieval pipeline. it's pretty easy to go to, you know, like the LangChain docs and get like a rag pipeline going very quickly. but as you mentioned, as you start to scale it out, as you start to add more knowledge sources and more use cases, and then you add users on top of those sources that are asking questions that maybe you hadn't thought of before, this is really when the challenge starts to Uh, you start to notice things like Well, the, the agent couldn't figure it out and we're not really sure why. Right. So we will go into our reservability tools and, look through that trace and see like, okay, like how did it, what did it pick out? Like what, did it even pick the correct knowledge source, first of all? And if it picked the correct knowledge source, like what did the chunks look like? did the top K come back in a way that was set it up for success to answer that question. And then a lot of Examples that we've seen that's not always the case where it comes back with a great set of top chunks, or it's not always the case where it picks the correct knowledge source, for example, we're relying on. A couple of things to help that one is like the amazing research that's going out by, so many of the teams out there that are putting out white papers around this sort of thing. You know, there was a great one about contextual search put out the Anthropic which gave us a lot of really good information and a lot of great ideas and there's like a lot of work going on in this area. And it really shows sort of like how big this can be when you start dumping you know, 10, 15, 20 knowledge sources in an LLM, like the context becomes really important. Like you, it's when you first deploy an application and you start testing it, it's pretty easy to be like, Oh, that, that works really well. that works well for several use cases. but. It doesn't often generalize super well. And that's, that's where we've seen the need for, especially like context aware,you know, retrieval has been like a game changer for us. that is like increase the accuracy of our retrieval. I don't want to give any hard numbers, but like a lot,a positive amount that makes us excited. That's one of them. Like knowledge, knowledge retrieval is like one of those big areas that we've seen,vagueness and failure modes abound. and it's a tricky one,but there's a lot of really great research going on and it's getting better and better every day.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":18,"time":"13:00","seconds":780,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I don't want to generalize too much here, but I think this is something where we really underestimate the work that needs to be done to do this well at times. And the way I kind of think about this is, look, we as humans or as an LLM that's having a conversation. We may have a framework that we come in with of like, Oh, this is the knowledge I have. This is how I would approach this problem, but the devil is in the details. And, you know, there's a reason this phrase always here. And to your point, getting that context in and making sure that context is held throughout, is so crucial. And I'm curious about the specific. Processes or tools that Twilio is using for experimentation around this for monitoring it for debugging. How are you approaching that process with these agents?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":19,"time":"14:00","seconds":840,"speaker":"Vinnie Giarrusso","text":"Well, for, for monitoring, primarily we use Galileo. you know, we've, we've been using Galileo observe, Basically, since day minus one, it was one of the very first things we integrated. It was one of the very first tools that we, you know, had set up and that was, that really set us up for, for success. having that visibility from day one really,you know, allows the team to have good ideas. And so for us, like, Monitoring and debugging also have like a direct impact on innovation. because when we see these failure modes happen, if we're not, logging those appropriately, or we're not really like capturing the things that are happening, we can't quite figure out. Exactly what happened, and we can't also quite figure out exactly what we should do about it. so Galileo has been like a critical part in, in helping us get through that. especially with, you know, the,with the rag retrieval pipelines and stuff like that, like all of the observability tools in there have been super, super helpful for us to, to get in there and, and figure that kind of stuff out. Vinnie, I would love to understand More about how Twilio has established best practices around either your approach to evals and observability or the tooling you're leveraging to upgrade this entire process. How are you approaching this? there's two sides to it. Uh, one side is how we approach evals, you know, for ourselves. and the other side is, you know, how do we want to expose that to our customers. And, in a lot of ways, there's, there's quite a bit of overlap. And so, a lot of what we do at Twilio is we'll take something that we see,we'll build something around it to solve our own problem, and we'll see,What we need to improve on, you know, what areas does that actually solve? And then is this something that maybe our customers could use as well? And so with our evals, we did exactly that. we started with, building sort of like an open source framework for ourselves to use around evals and this was specifically for when we started this it was for security evaluations but it has since evolved into evals more generally What we found was that, this was really useful for us. and we, we wanted to open source this so that our customers could also use this. And so we have a, an open source package now,that's based out of the,Twilio alpha, GitHub,and NPM namespace that, allows our customers to, run evals,up against our own AI assistants. And we feel that this is really important because we can run evals ourselves and we can say, it does X, Y, and Z under, you know, A, B, and C scenarios. you know, some percentage of the time. but it's a lot more convincing when you put it in the hands of people to play with themselves, when you put it in the hands of people to like use their own use cases and ask their own questions and like really refine that for themselves and start to figure out like, where are the gaps here? where the gaps may be in my knowledge sources, where the gaps may be in my, my prompting strategy and. do I have all of the context,for my agent to be able to accurately answer this question? Like, maybe you find out that you don't through your evals and maybe, you have some work to do in other areas. So, putting this out, has been really helpful for us. it's helped us shore up a lot of things on our side and we, we hope that people get a lot of good use out of it for themselves too.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":20,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"are there particular insights that you've already drawn from the way Twilio customers are using AI systems today?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":21,"time":"17:00","seconds":1020,"speaker":"Vinnie Giarrusso","text":"you know, one insight is that,I think in most cases, these agents, these assistants are going to be used side by side. And so a lot of our initial customers right now are, maybe not thinking like we want to, fully deploy these and just, you know, let it go ham. I don't think anyone at this stage really wants that. you know, what, what we're sort of like putting out for people is the ability to say, like, okay, here is our goal. Here is, what we want our assistant to do. Here are the things that it has access to. I need to go test that, right? that process is really eye opening for us because we can't know in advance,how people are going to use our platform. We can't know in advance what use cases are going to come our way. And honestly, we are pleasantly surprised, like, all the time. Like,every time, you know, uh, you know, someone new comes to use cases are always interesting. it's like, oh wow, like that's super cool. Like,you know, when we think about assistants, we tend to think about, maybe a customer service assistant or something like that. But a lot of the use cases we see coming our way aren't necessarily that. and especially some of the ones that are more forward thinking,get us really excited for, for like what's about to come.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":22,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Let's dive right into that forward thinking piece.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":23,"time":"18:00","seconds":1080,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Obviously today, a lot of agentic systems are built with a human in loop in mind where there is this validation step, but increasingly we're seeing a rise in multimodal systems. We're seeing people experiment with, frameworks that have agents talking to one another and supporting one another. What are your thoughts on what the future looks like for fully autonomous agents?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":24,"time":"19:00","seconds":1140,"speaker":"Vinnie Giarrusso","text":"Well, I think, in the long term future, like fully autonomous, you know, in the sort of like short to medium term future, I think what that looks like is, you know, we're going to have these assistants be able to, do tasks on their own, they may be scoped to do, smaller tasks and have access to maybe another assistant that has, scoped to smaller tasks and its own goal of itself. there might be a layer above that, that's sort of managing this cohort of agents,that has very specific things that it can do. And I think at least in, you know, the short term, like, one strategy,I think could probably work well that I haven't tested this. I'm literally just sort of spitballing on the future. Um, is sort of like a stop mode or like a, like a request help mode, you know, for the assistant. Like we want the assistants to be fully autonomous to a point , right? Like there are things that an assistant can be trusted with to do. just kind of fully on their own. And then there are things that at least today, assistants should not be trusted to do fully on their own. especially in the early phase. and so a pattern that I think we're going to see sort of evolve is, you know, have these assistants working, doing their thing, and then they'll get to a point where they're like, Oh, actually, I need, you know, for this step, I need human supervisor approval, or, I need to check in, Regarding the series of steps that I took,and what that looks like on the other side, like, who knows, right? Like, you know, maybe, you know, it sends a recording of what the assistant was doing and then the human can overview and, and whatever. And then while that's happening, You know, we'll call you back in, in, in a couple of minutes or like, hang on the line while we approve this or, we'll send another correspondence. I'm not really sure what that looks like. But,I think that measured approach, at least in the short term is sort of where I think we might be going. but definitely in the future, I think, these agents will be talking to each other. from one system to another system internally, uh, you know, even internally to other external systems. And then those agents talking to other agents like this is going to get complex pretty quickly. And I think that it will really model and mirror kind of how we do things today. and I think that, you know, similarly to how we do things today, where, you know, we don't always have,the maybe necessary permissions to do something or it might be outside of our job role specifically to do something and we have to, you know, maybe go over to another business function to, get that taken care of and worked out and take a look at. I think that that's probably how this is going to end up where today we're, we're super stoked that, you know, assistants and agents can do basically anything and everything, but that that's probably not how it's going to, you know, for a while now.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":25,"time":"21:00","seconds":1260,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I absolutely agree. I think a really good framing for the short term of these AI assistants or AI agents is async junior digital employees, where there are certain tasks that they can go jump on and there are certain things you need to give them feedback on","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":26,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Vinnie Giarrusso","text":"Yeah. I love that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":27,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"yet.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":28,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Vinnie Giarrusso","text":"I love that. What did you say? async junior digital employee? Yeah, that's","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":29,"time":"22:00","seconds":1320,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Async junior digital employees, because we're, we're creating this kind of. digital employee class that are these AI agents and the goal with it is, Hey, I'm not going to jump on live to solve their problem, but I'm going to, I'm going to get to your point, a failure mode, or, uh, I'm going to have a, a check in point where I go, Oh, here's how I correct. Here's how I adjust. and I think where we're going to increasingly have to spend a lot of time. Is not just on the kind of challenge of scaling that individual agent to senior level. That's a ton of folks are working on that problem. There's a lot of thinking happening there, but also in the. Structures of how those async junior digital employees function within the larger organization. If I'm managing a team of 10 AI agents doing different tasks, that is a lot of human overhead that I have to then put towards making sure all that is railed properly. So how can I then have. That hopefully more autonomous senior level agent that we are developing. That's going to have multiple steps, now start to be the judge within that,framework, how, how does that all work together? it's going to be a fascinating mix","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":30,"time":"23:00","seconds":1380,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and something I've had a conversation with folks about a couple of times is also how this plays into our broader hiring practices. I think we're already seeing this within tech where. A lot of junior employees are kind of struggling to take that next step because people in tech are hiring senior, I think, in part with this anticipation of the future of saying, Hey, I want more senior folks who I can scale with systems who I can scale with. You know, AI tooling and who can really help solve these problems for me. And there's going to be this interesting problem for us where we've trained a lot of junior engineers. We've trained a lot of junior product marketers. We've trained a lot of, you know, junior technical PMs who are coming out of college or coming off their first job. And. Getting them to the level of, Hey, I can now be a senior who's managing this team of agents, this, this team of different processes that we've built up from these digital employees. How, how do we get them to that next step? And right now, I think we're, we not only have this challenge around how do we get all these agents working together, but also how do we make sure that our. Our junior folks within the tech ecosystem have that opportunity to scale so they can also start managing these teams of agents, which I really think is the future, at least in the midterm.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":31,"time":"24:00","seconds":1440,"speaker":"Vinnie Giarrusso","text":"Yeah. I think that something interesting happens here too. I think that there's a lot of worry about agents taking work away and resulting in like a less personal experience. But actually, I think it's, I think it's the opposite, I think that there's a huge opportunity here to use these assistants in taking away the boring technical work and the sort of like mundane tasks,that would ordinarily be done by a human. Instead of letting them take that over and like what the human can really focus on is that human to human interaction, right? Like everyone's had a tough time on you know A customer service call where it seemed like they didn't really understand like your problem I mean this happens to me. I don't know half the time when I, when I call, I'm not going to say any particular company, but I'm always like, okay, actually, you don't really understand exactly what I'm asking. And I understand that you're sort of like reading from the script and you're like trying to figure out like how I fit into this like playbook that you have, but that's not what I really need. And so what I think that's going to happen is like, when we do have these human to human interactions, the human that's there is not necessarily worried about like, oh, did I memorize like All of the, you know, technical, you know, things that could possibly happen before this. And, and like really by the time that problem gets to you, like hopefully the, the AI assistant has like sussed out some of those technical problems. And now maybe like what you're dealing with is like, I have a human to human problem right now. I have a, I have a human that has like an actual issue and we can be like a little bit more like empathetic and compassionate at that moment because we're not necessarily worried about like, you know, ticking off all the boxes on our sheet that says like, did you ask them this? Did you ask them this? Like, have you gone through this? Like we can safely assume like by the time it's gotten to a human, like those things are true. And you know, maybe you have a report that The AI assistant like generated for you when you, get that human call tells you what happened before that. But I think that there's like, a huge opportunity to, have a really positive experience and, really build some positive experiences that we haven't had the opportunity to before,even simply because that human agent just didn't have time to sit and talk to you about the problem.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":32,"time":"26:00","seconds":1560,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. I think you're spot on. There's this massive opportunity space here to create more human interactions by automating all these, I'll call them annoying tasks in a way. And we have to be intentional about how we approach this. but it's a big opportunity. And I think, you know, hopefully for folks who are maybe more on the junior side or listening, I'm not trying to scare you. I think there is this big opportunity that Vinnie's describing where if you are building up the right skillset here, and in particular, I think if you are leveraging AI to help you learn,and by that, I mean, not just the agent approach that we're talking about, but like, Hey, if you are onboarding to a new company. Throw it all into your favorite GPT or cloud or whatever you want to use. Like have it help you synthesize what you're doing through? Have it help you learn that there is such an opportunity to scale ourselves with machines today. And that opportunity is only going to continue to increase. And to your point, we have to be careful to ensure that we're not. getting rid of these human to human interactions instead of enhancing them. but it's a really exciting thing that's happening right now. And if you're in this space today, I think you are in absolute the right position to make an amazing impact on what the future of work looks like and what we get to do as a species in a lot of ways. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":33,"time":"28:00","seconds":1680,"speaker":"Vinnie Giarrusso","text":"I mean, that is my hope, right? Like my hope, there's definitely a lot of, you know, sort of fear around, like, how is this going to impact, the future of work? and that is a big question. It's a question we should definitely be asking ourselves at this point. but, you know, I choose to sort of believe that, This will open up a lot of personal interactions for us. It'll open up a lot more human to human interactions, in a way. Even though, you know, maybe some of it is going to get taken care of, just straight up by an assistant. Like, if you have a problem that only requires, you know, Hey, can you check my thing? Cool. Like, that's great. but in those moments where you really need a human, maybe now you don't have to wait an hour. maybe now you don't have to wait, so long to get ahold of somebody so, I'm hopeful for that and, and, you know, with regards to like the the junior engineer out there who's, you know, maybe wondering how does this, impact me. the opportunities are massive at this point, like, if you can be, you know, amongst the first to, you know, stand side by side with AI and use these new tools to your advantage, like, this is going to open up a lot of doors, you know, it's going to open up a lot of opportunities, the, the speed at which you can learn,is unparalleled today, the speed at which you can, you know, learn. Write. Code, um, is unparalleled today. The speed at which you can get feedback is unparalleled today, but that doesn't mean that we don't need, that senior mentorship anymore. one of my colleagues,Dominic Condell was talking about this,in a court that he had where, the senior to junior,engineer relationship, There's an opportunity for this to kind of go away, unfortunately, like, like the mentorship aspect,might start to slip away. And, you know, on both sides, like, It's good for the people who, like, really have a lot to learn, because for the first time really, like, you have a personalized, like, mentor. you have, you know, someone, uh, not someone, but, uh, something. You know, some, some being of some kind.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":34,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"them. It's happening. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":35,"time":"30:00","seconds":1800,"speaker":"Vinnie Giarrusso","text":"It's already happened, yeah. You know, you have some, some, some system that you can interact with, that can teach you personally, it can sort of really get to know you and,know, where you might need help and where you might need guidance, but that is certainly not a replacement for, the direct interaction with, with a senior engineer. And, you know, for the senior engineers, it's really easy to forget what it was like to be a junior engineer. it's really easy to forget what it was like before, like you were an expert in the thing that you're an expert in. even though like now we're here, in this stage with, the ability for our colleagues to just kind of figure things out, on their own with the help of AI. It's not a replacement for, that mentorship. And I, I really liked, you know, what Dom said about that because that's something that, has been on, on my mind. As well, like, not only,our other industries sort of grappling with, like, what does AI mean for the future of our job,you know, as engineers, like, we have to ask ourselves the same questions. Like, are we eliminating? roles for junior engineers. Like, are we eliminating the historical mentorship that goes on? you know, even in just the conversations that we have day to day, like when we start having those conversations with AI, it's like, I'm not necessarily like sharing all of my conversations that I have with my team, although I do share some of them that are either like funny for some reason, or like spectacularly good for some reason. but it's easy to like, let that opportunity to slip away and,It's good to keep in the back of our heads too.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":36,"time":"31:00","seconds":1860,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, I think as we continue to spend more and more time making sure AI has the context it needs and it's bringing in the right context windows, we also need to be that intentional about our human interactions to your point where it's so easy to overfocus on, oh, here's a technological solution and, you know, We'd be careful not to let it eat away at the established work we've done to build these great mentorship relationships and build these learning opportunities. And I absolutely agree with you. I think there's a lot of work to be done there on the future. And I know there are a lot of smart people thinking about it, but I appreciate you getting philosophical with me and kind of making sure we address it here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":37,"time":"32:00","seconds":1920,"speaker":"Vinnie Giarrusso","text":"I mean, the education space is one that I'm particularly excited about for AI. Like, I come from a non traditional sort of computer science background myself. And, you know, on my bookshelf right over there, you know, I can peep at a number of, you know, textbooks that you might find in your college classroom, right? And when I was going through those, I kind of went through them on my own and I wasn't really, I mean, these books are thick, man. Like, it's like, what do I even look at here? Like, how do I even like start to frame a context around this? Like, I have no idea. and that's even with the advantage of having access to those books. Right. So like, we have to start from the place where like. I was advantaged enough to be able to buy that book. You know, I was advantaged enough to be able to read that book and, like, understand that book, and, you know, go ask my colleagues, like, Hey, what, what does this mean? Like, what does this symbol mean? Like, how do I interpret this equation? I'm super excited about the way that this is going to change education. Like, I'm super excited about the way that this is going to help teachers. I'm, I'm really excited about the ways that, like, You know, kids and,adults are going to be able to use these systems to personalize their own education on things that are important to them. the democratization of information is something that I'm super excited about to see evolve,in the space. And,education is certainly one of the biggest ones that I think is going to be,a really cool sort of area of this advancement.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":38,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Totally. We are in this period of kind of reestablishing and rebuilding norms around how we approach information systems in this new era. And there's massive opportunity and a lot of work to be done.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":39,"time":"33:00","seconds":1980,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and with that context in mind, I would love to understand more about how you see that partnership evolving between Twilio and Galileo.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":40,"time":"34:00","seconds":2040,"speaker":"Vinnie Giarrusso","text":"I mean, I hope our partnership is one where we, we continue to push each other forward. you know, we, we continue to work together and look forward at the advancements that are being made and say, like, how do we integrate these into our system? And how are you integrating them into your system? And what is the Delta that we're sort of missing? and that, that's one of the things that, like, I've loved working with the Galileo team is that sort of back and forth around like, hey, like, we saw that you're using, you know, this thing, like, How is it going? Like, how is it working for you, you know, and then us, you know, coming back and saying, well, you know, we really like that, but we'd also like this other thing that we happen to notice while we were using it and that's sort of back and forth is like, like, it's such a great relationship to have between, you know, two teams of, of like really talented people because like, we can go, we can go quick, you know, we can go fast. We can, we can sort of like hit on things and, you know, especially, you know, with where we sit in terms of like, the amount of use cases we see and the customers that we see. And As it relates to like multi modal and all those things and multi channel, like, I really look forward to, to pushing the envelope with y'all and I really look forward to seeing like, What can we do next? how far can we go? Like, how far can we bring, you know, visibility into these platforms? How far can we bring testability into these platforms? How far can we bring security into these platforms? Like, let's go, you know? I'm so excited about, that. Like, um, the Galileo team,is like, obviously, world class, right? And it's such a privilege for us to be able to, to work with, that caliber of people,and to be able to push the industry forward together. And, and I really hope that, you know, we continue that,going forward. Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":41,"time":"35:00","seconds":2100,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"right back at you, Vinnie, it is such a distinct pleasure having the opportunity to learn from the work Twilio is doing and with that in mind, I'd love to understand more about how Twilio is leveraging Galileo today. In your process and how you see the potential for that to continue to evolve.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":42,"time":"36:00","seconds":2160,"speaker":"Vinnie Giarrusso","text":"Primarily we use Observe,and Observe for us is like, you know, I was trying to think about this, this earlier, and I was like, what does it, what does it mean to us, right? And the best, example that I can think of is that like, Galileo is sort of like our head chef in the kitchen. You know, like, we have, we have a bunch of servers out front. literally servers, right? But in the restaurant equation, they're also servers. So this works pretty well. We got a bunch of servers out front that are sending stuff in, you know, they're taking stuff out, you know, whatever. And when, you know, if you've ever worked in a kitchen, when something comes back, uh, to the kitchen, like, that head chef is right there, right? That head chef, that executive chef knows everything there is to know about what's going on. You can ask them, like, hey, is there some random ingredient in this dish? And the answer is, you know, whatever it is. But, you know, of course they know. They also know how to do the job of, like, everybody else in the kitchen, right? So your executive chef can, you know, in the same way that they can act as a line cook, they can also act as, you know, they can, get the food going between the expo and the front of house or, they can even, take on, other roles in the kitchen. Galileo is like, that's, when I think about like, at least the observe platform, like the ability to just go in there and see everything and not only see everything, but be able to gain insights too. Like the insights that we get from, from the Luna metrics, like we're, we're always in there looking at one thing or another, right. Either it's, you know, context adherence or complexity or,accuracy, or, you know, any of the tone, like that sort of thing. Like, that's really important. and you also sort of get that, you know, from a head chef too, right? Like you, you can also in the same way, you can go to the head chef and say like, Hey,can you, uh, remake this dish? Or, Hey, can you tell me how you did this? You can also ask a head chef for insights into like how they might improve on that you know, use one ingredient over another or why one ingredient works better in this case than another ingredient, right? And I realize I'm taking this example pretty far, but,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":43,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I love it. It,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":44,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Vinnie Giarrusso","text":"but, um, you know, that's, that's sort of how I see it. Like, Like our, your observe platform is basically the go to for any question that we have from any level of our team, right? Like from engineer to PM to business partner, like everybody who has access to Galileo has a specific reason to go in there and look for something. And they have the ability to find what they're looking for. and so for us, that's invaluable because we don't really have any other tools that. Scale that well across a team, you know, there are tools that work well for our engineers And there are tools that work well for our PM's and there are tools that work well for our business partners There are very few that work Equally well across all of them And so for us like that's that's like critical for us","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":45,"time":"38:00","seconds":2280,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I love to hear that. I I'm so glad Galileo has been able to help fill that niche for you. Has Galileo also influenced Twilio's approach to AI agent development and evaluation?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":46,"time":"39:00","seconds":2340,"speaker":"Vinnie Giarrusso","text":"Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. the visibility that that gives us provides us with the answers that we need. and in the same token, it also provides us with,areas that,are opportunities. Like, for example, like, you know, if we're looking at something that has a low, chunk adherence or a low context adherence, like we, we can figure out why, and by figuring out why, that shapes the way that we sort of like frame the question to ourselves. why did this happen? It's like, well, that happened because our, you know, maybe our assumptions about what would happen in that case, turned out to be wrong. Or, you know, we expected this to happen and in a very small percentage of cases like this happened. And so, you know, leveraging those insights gives us the ability to take like a,a more rounded approach to like how we're moving forward and what types of things we might,expose to people. For example, like the ability to, put of our customers is a direct result of, our team,trying to gain those insights out of,a bunch of other stuff, and so like we, you know, for us, we take a look at that and we say like, okay, how do we build something around this? And, and even if we do, what is sort of like, what are we trying to get out of that? And what are we trying to put in the hands of our customers and what do they want out of it? And so in a way, like all of these, like observe and protect and evaluate, like they're all interrelated. They all play a role in the way that we think about a holistic product. they play a role in how we think about the future,based on what we see today. So really, I mean, all of those are like critical to how we think about things and how we plan,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":47,"time":"40:00","seconds":2400,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"It's been such a joy, you know, having this conversation with you, Vinnie, and I know our whole team at Galileo is so thankful to be able to work with you and the rest of the team at Twilio on this as we build the future of AI. It's so exciting to have such an incredible partner in the space and to see all the work that you and your team are doing around AI assistance and beyond. thank you so much for coming on the show today. It was a distinct pleasure to have you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":48,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Vinnie Giarrusso","text":"Ah, thank you so much. Uh, you know, we, we feel the same way. And,it's been such a great ride with you guys and, really looking forward to seeing what we can build together.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":49,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, I think we're just getting started. And I would love to give our listeners an opportunity to learn more about what you're up to or the work that you're doing at Twilio. Where is the best place they can go?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":50,"time":"41:00","seconds":2460,"speaker":"Vinnie Giarrusso","text":"Yeah,for my team,twilioalpha. com, that'll give you sort of like the latest up to date and what we're working on. you know, we're releasing blog posts and papers and, you know, new, new code and,experimental code and all sorts of stuff. that's the place to go to, to check out what's going on our team. I also work with the OWASP foundation. there's a lot of security initiatives going on,in that space as well. Um, so, vinnie-giarrusso_2_12-16-2024_140544: genai. owasp. org.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":51,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Vinnie Giarrusso","text":"is another one, you can go to find,the latest work, uh, that's going on in the security space as well.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":52,"time":"42:00","seconds":2520,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Fantastic. Vinnie. Thank you so much. We will link all of this. everything that Vinnie's discussed will be in the show notes. So listeners make sure to check it out and everyone. thank you so much for tuning into season one of chain of thought. This is the final episode of this first season. So this is, this is our wrap moment. we'll be back on January 8th for the start of season two of the podcast. And we've got a lot of incredible guests in mind. We'll have to have Vinnie back for sure. And I think there'll be a lot of folks who you may recognize from X or from LinkedIn and from elsewhere, who you'll be very excited to hear from. A huge shout out to all of you for tuning in and for everyone who has supported the show, your likes, your reviews, your comments, we've gotten such positive feedback and we're learning so much from this process. So thank you. as I said, we've got big things in store for season two. things are not going to slow down for chain of thought and we'll be there to help you and your teams navigate AI throughout 2025. Thank you again. And Vinnie, thank you so much. It's been a fantastic chatting with you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":53,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Vinnie Giarrusso","text":"Likewise. Thanks a lot.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso","episode":7,"guid":"b958fe84-8b59-47bf-8a9f-c5e18cbe2eb2","episodeTitle":"Beyond Chatbots: How Twilio Uses AI to Strengthen Human Connection | Vinnie Giarrusso","publishedAt":"2024-12-18","segmentIndex":54,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"to you all January 8th. Happy holidays, everyone.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/7-beyond-chatbots-how-twilio-uses-ai-to-strengthen-human-connection-vinnie-giarrusso/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"​ Welcome back to chain of thought. Everyone. I'm Conor Bronsdon, head of developer awareness for Galileo, and I'm delighted to be joined by Atindriyo Sanyal, co founder and CTO at Galileo. Atin, great to see you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":1,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Great to see you too, Conor. I'm very excited. It's close to the end of the year, and I'm happy to talk about what the year has been like for Gen AI and what the next year holds.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":2,"time":"1:00","seconds":60,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"there's been so much innovation this year, and then there's also been. Signals of areas where we need to improve as an industry and beyond the hype and the headlines, there is this growing reality that the challenges and immense potential of deploying GenAI solutions at enterprise scale are myriad as businesses are striving to harness the power of AI questions have arisen around how can we effectively integrate into our operations? What are the key considerations for successful deployment, which I know we'll talk about. And how can we mitigate the risks and maximize the returns? and to discuss those questions, Atin actually sat down with leaders from Indeed, ServiceTitan, and Twilio, whom you'll hear from later in the episode. but first, Atin, I know this is a topic you've thought a lot about, that you talk about with customers all the time behind the scenes at Galileo. It's obviously one thing to build a demo. It's completely different to deploy it across a global enterprise.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":3,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"What are some of the unique challenges that you're seeing around deploying at enterprise scale?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":4,"time":"2:00","seconds":120,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Yeah, I think 2024 was kind of the year when we first started productionizing a lot of the prototypes and MVPs that were built the year prior. And a lot of new discoveries were made, or realizations rather, which in hindsight I don't think are surprising. Of course, there's a myriad of challenges, that, a lot of enterprises faced. While trying to get their apps into production, including, the toolscape being immature and there's a long tail of issues, but I think the ones that stood out for me were number one was this discrepancy around performance. So it's one thing to build, an app that works well. As far as your latencies go and cost and accuracy in a, pre production or development environment. but often these applications falter in real world scenarios and when the app actually meets the wild. for various reasons, including, data is dynamic, data is changing over time. It doesn't match up with what you expect. initially evaluated your, Gen AI apps with, the quality of the data is very different in production. I think this year was kind of the zero to one for productionizing these applications and uh, a lot of the data that these applications generated or got queried with were Often data that was not seen while it was building. The developers were building them in their sort of isolated environments. Then there was, of course, performance. One of the main realizations was, number one, a lot of the metrics that are used were sort of these prehistoric, old school metrics to evaluate. Erstwhile language modeling applications, which no longer apply in the LLM era. And, uh, I think we've spoken about it for a while now, but, it really sort of came to light where the need for a rigorous evaluation framework that's not only, providing you state of the art newer ways to evaluate applications, but is also customizable where, you essentially need the tools to. Create and define your own evaluation criteria because there's no one size fits all solution to performance as far as evaluation goes. And of course, that is very bread and butter to Galileo. So we've done tons of innovation around this particular point. And then there's integrations and cost. I think we saw a lot of legacy systems trying to integrate the new unstable toolscape around gen AI. of course it demanded for very careful planning, uh, and, to align these new capabilities into existing workflows. That was a big challenge. And then cost, these systems are not, cheap at all, especially at enterprise scale. I think one of the key realizations was, uh, you can tinker around and build, uh, a small MVP, but when it comes to actually, hitting the wild and getting 10 million queries a day. Your costs go through the roof you need to think about newer patterns of querying these kind of models which can mitigate cost but also there's evaluation cost. So one of the challenges going into next year is how do you continuously keep reducing the cost of not only building the application but also testing it, evaluating it because there's LLMs in the mix and you know across the board and costs can go through the roof if you don't. Pay attention to it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":5,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Absolutely. And I think it's something you'll hear from a lot of critics of where they talk about. Oh, it's too costly. It doesn't make sense. And Grant, Mehmet and Vinnie talk about this, in the panel with you later in this episode. They've importance of making the right trade AI stack.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":6,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Atin, how do you think through those key considerations of cost, performance, and model selection as you have to really fine tune for enterprise scale?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":7,"time":"6:00","seconds":360,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Yeah, that's a good question, because those are sort of the three main things which have come up. in as you sort of holistically evaluate your application, there's overall cost of your system, there's performance in terms of accuracy, but also latency. And then, yeah, which models right for your, your use case. often we've seen that, there's the consideration of I'm going to use LLM APIs versus I'm going to try to build some kind of an on prem LLM solution. often, there's cloud based solutions which have offered you the flexibility of building something very quickly, but they've proven to be very expensive at scale. While, the more recent trend towards using some of the open source models and hosting them On prem or in your cloud using a custom inference engine like SageMaker or any kind of, bespoke and inference engines. But then there's also a whole host of inferencing services out there. Now, what we've seen is that in the world of using and hosting your own models, there's the larger upfront cost of development and figuring out the right configurations, but at scale, the costs are significantly lower than, using an open AI or some kind of LLM provider out of the box. So that's certainly one consideration around cost. There's also a trend towards training versus inference like you fine tune a model for your particular use case. This is a muscle that's emerging more and more, but we certainly saw some trends of that in 2024 where, the consideration of, you know, Hey, should I fine tune my model for this particular task, which can be significantly cheaper than prompting? that also came up, as one of the key considerations with a few of our customers. latency was a very big factor and that's where I think latency was interesting because you often get, there, there's a couple of ways of. addressing the latency issue. you have a lot more flexibility towards, addressing latency as well as cost. If you have control of the model, for example, if you take a Lama and host it yourself, there's various techniques that you can use like pruning and sparsification, to lower your inference time latencies, which many of the inference engines, like inference as a service businesses offer out of the box now and they're constantly working towards, low latency, cheap ways of hosting these LLMs, but you get less flexibility if you use a third party LLM provider. So this has been one of the key considerations for, for Decision makers and leaders is, Hey, do I go ahead and just use open AI or Anthropic or Gemini out of the box? Or should I, take into account that. I want to give my developers the power to, control the cost and the latency through various measures, by hosting a Llama 3. 1 or 3. 2, which today are performing almost as well as some of the open AI like providers. so that's been a paradigm shift that I've observed, especially in the second half of this year.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":8,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I totally agree. I think it's so easy to say, Oh, let's just go with Anthropic. Let's use their API. Let's get this up in a production. And then it's really easy also to see this ballooning cost effect. Once you go from, hey, we're just running a basic demo to, oh, this is actually in the hands of thousands, if not more of folks. who are now using it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":9,"time":"9:00","seconds":540,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And it feels like we're really having to redevelop new AI development best practices. Many software engineers are still used to building and deploying deterministic software systems. What changes are you seeing and how engineers need to now approach building enterprise deployments with non deterministic systems?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":10,"time":"10:00","seconds":600,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"I think the first thing is, you know, for a developer to start integrating with these non deterministic systems, the first key thing is to really understand. what the non determinism is, and really just make sense of it. this requires a mindset shift, for example, from thinking about unit and integration tests, which have traditionally been, the tools that software developers use to harness their system and test them in a more holistic way. Those tests are deterministic and very specific conditions that the developers write to protect and validate your system. Now that's kind of gone, away and that has led to, this need for a shift, in your mindset. So understanding the non determinism, what it means, going from this mindset of thinking about very specific deterministic conditions to, Thinking of these outputs of gen AI systems as probabilistic outcomes and how do you build a testing and evaluation framework around, probability distributions is sort of one shift that has been the need of the hour for developers. but also I think, there's been a change towards having developers also incorporate interdisciplinary skills. more data science y skills. thinking about datasets and, how do you have datasets with ground truth and without ground truth and, using them as your test harness rather than having bespoke functions that you write as unit tests. so this has been an interesting play where not only have the software developers themselves had to upskill themselves to think in a slightly more data sciency model sort of a way where traditionally data scientists would think that way. But it has also caused a lot of interesting collaboration between developers and data science where there's both teams that exist in organizations and the overall Gen AI effort has been more of a holding hands together and building it in unison rather than, traditional, software engineering or even traditional ML, which used to be done only in silos and they would kind of throw a model on top of the wall and, you know, the developer wouldn't really care about the ins and outs of it or how it was built. You'd just deploy it. I think those lines have kind of blurred while both cohorts of people, the data scientist, as well as software engineers, they've kind of upskilled themselves to understand each other's skills a little bit better.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":11,"time":"12:00","seconds":720,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"As you point out, we are seeing this almost blurring of the lines between where data scientists and software engineers live and increased collaboration. How can companies strike a balance between leveraging familiar tools? Whether it's for their data scientists or their software engineers, and then embracing these new technology paradigms, are there particular toolkits and frameworks that you think AI devs in particular should be applying?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":12,"time":"13:00","seconds":780,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"That's a great question. I think this year also, I thinkwe saw a lot of new technologies come. And that's constantly changing, right? New SDKs, new frameworks, better libraries, the toolscape is still maturing. one of the key considerations for an engineer has been to minimize that kind of disruption. Most folks have taken a rather cautious approach to, you know, having almost like an incremental integration into their legacy systems because no one wants to uproot their system and build a JNI system from scratch. this ties into, the method by which you can have this kind of incremental integration really ties into the product roadmaps. And that's what we've seen with, many of our customers where the roadmaps are built in such a way where You. think of Gen AI as an extension of the, existing capabilities of your apps and you want to slowly integrate, and take a more cautious approach to baking newer capabilities in your legacy systems. But then there's also the need for building experimentation or baking new capabilities. That as a paradigm in your software, just as an example, things like feature flags or AB experimentation, frameworks, which give you this ability to quickly swap in, swap out certain pieces of your, Software based on, how the app is being used in the real world and really understand the effects of the changes that you're making. That is something that's emerged as a good practice and I believe should be taken into 2025. As these systems mature more and more, all this, calls for the need for very robust evaluation tooling, really, like a good evaluation framework gives you all these capabilities out of the box, where in the end, as a developer want your app to perform well. That's all you want. So the decision to whether, you know, use this prompt or that prompt, or use this model or that model, or use this agentic framework or that one, often the answer lies in the data. And you can make a lot of, assumptions and opinions. But at the end of the day, you'll have to deploy something, see how it works, and make those data driven decisions. And, that'll be very critical. And this is kind of what I'm describing to you are the ingredients of an ideal, observability framework that gives the power to the developer to be able to do these data driven decisions as their app sort of evolves.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":13,"time":"15:00","seconds":900,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"So, let's say I'm an AI developer or AI engineering leader who's listening to this conversation. I'm pulling a lot of great insights from what you're saying about how to apply frameworks, the trade offs you have to make, the decisions you have to think through. Maybe I haven't actually thought through. What I want to build with this yet. Maybe I'm just simply being given a directive from leadership. Hey, we need AI. It's going to keep our investors happy. you'll hear our panelists later discuss a range of use cases. From virtual assistants to systems for technicians and beyond. In your experience, Atin, which enterprise use cases are showing the most promise right now that our audience should be thinking about? Atin Sanyal:","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":14,"time":"16:00","seconds":960,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"being in this, Gen AI landscape this year and really seeing firsthand the innovation that's happening in enterprise, I think we saw certain use cases emerge as Some of the obvious ones to go to while we saw a lot of expansion, for example, of course, there's the content creation and customer service. they're, they're super big use cases and they saw a lot of maturity, compared to 2023 where, a lot of, stuff that was built actually got productionized, HR tooling. like AI tools to screen resumes and build employee training programs is another sort of emerging use case, which we saw legal came up as one of the main winners. I think we saw a lot of, very good tooling companies come out for legal AI as well this year. And, I think that market is certainly set for disruption, use cases, including like analyzing contracts and in general, I think, one of the needs has been. because we are in the zero to one phase still, where we don't really know exactly, how do you build like a true Six Sigma Gen AI application, people are still saying that, hey, I have a lot of unstructured data lying around, language data, text data in the form of PDFs, in the form of slide decks, documents, and I just need a way to kind of unstructure, unlock this unstructured data, make sense of it. And then, you know, even in an offline setting, like just help me make sense of it to make good business decisions. I think that's, that's something that a lot of large enterprise, especially have been trying to, uh, really, you know, unlock. whole host of companies, including leaders we've spoken to at writer and various other companies are kind of going in that direction, trying to, really unlock the power of unstructured data. and then there's, the future, right? Like there's multimodal, which has come up, already people are, building, image. To text systems and, trying to bake in agents into this to really make something more holistic beyond just querying, text data and getting a textual answer. so we've seen a lot of progress on all these fronts. That said, I think 2025 will be the year where you'll start seeing a few things actually get to success. I think the success has not yet been achieved. People are still in that mode where, Hey. I've cautiously productionized something. I need robust evaluation tooling to make decisions, to improve my system. And, that's when I'll sort of realize, the buck is still out there to say that, Hey, here are the top three, winning use cases in each industry. But, a lot of those realizations I think will happen next year.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":15,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"What other predictions do you have about how we'll see enterprises use AI in 2025?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":16,"time":"19:00","seconds":1140,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Yeah, if you followed this industry and you followed the trends, I think there's certain obvious things which will likely happen. one of them is, just these models will have enhanced reasoning capabilities. We already saw a preview of that, uh, with, for example, OpenAI's O1 models. people haven't realized how good they are. And there's a lot of, questions around how you'll use reasoning and enhance reasoning capabilities in practical production systems, or whether or not they'll even yield something that's, uh, beneficial, but we'll see a lot of answers to that in 2025 and you'll start seeing the reasons why, you can achieve step function improvements in, your GenAI system if you simply have the ingredients. which are up leveled, for example, having a better reasoning baked in to these LLMs. and then there's also the general reduction of the cost of intelligence. we clearly saw eight billion parameter models perform as well as a hundred billion plus ones, which got launched in 2023. So a massive reduction in the cost of intelligence, and everyone benefits from that. There's also agents and multi modal, I think they kind of took off a little bit this year, and it's still kind of where, just these LLMs were in 2023, so still maturing, the stack is maturing, but we'll really start seeing these gen AI systems go from just Being chatbots and interacting with people to actually taking action. Uh, and we've already started seeing very interesting agents being built and productionized and we'll start seeing that happen at scale Multimodal is also I think another area which will see a lot of progress in 2025 and I think in general, what I see is that, the quality of these systems will start improving. They'll start working at scale slowly and you know what we call low hanging fruit today will be up leveled. And what that means is today we say that, Hey, I use these LLMs as virtual assistant and it helps me be more efficient. Today, that's the low hanging fruit. Tomorrow, the low hanging fruit's definition will be that, hey, I have these agents and they do these things for me, and, we'll just be up leveled in general. so I'm very excited about seeing actually the ceiling rather than the floor, because, there'll be newer opportunities. of hard problems to solve with mature agents and mature agentic systems. And that'll kind of pave the path for the year after that to 2026 and beyond. I think, it'll be exciting to see what we can do, As a company, which is working on the cutting edge, it's always exciting to see what lies like three to four years ahead. So in general, I'm excited to work with our, enterprises to see what's practical, uplift them and, um, Yeah, just excited to see, you know, what innovations we do next year.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":17,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Something you and I have talked about before, and I think we maybe both see on the horizon here is this opportunity for Agents to leverage open source models as well, because to your point earlier, it can be at times cost prohibitive to try to leverage open AI or anthropics API, if you're trying to have all these calls happen for a multi agent system that is actually solving problems for you, do you expect to see more agent frameworks, leveraging open source models in 2025 to improve efficiency?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":18,"time":"22:00","seconds":1320,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Absolutely. I think one of the key factors for that is, cost, and latency. I think, typically an agentic system because the goal of an agentic system is to perform tasks. It involves multiple calls to L. L. M. S. And multiple interactions. So this compounded system is a lot more complex than a simple chat bot based system. And that's where, restrictions of an API based solution comes in where often you'd find yourself being very restrictive. there's a multitude of benefits that open source models offer, including Their weights being fine tunable, ways to sparsify them and quantize them to be able to make them run at less than half the cost. so that really opens up the avenue for you to build systems that can think and rethink. And you can do a lot more with an open source model or open weights model rather that you deploy on your own. Then say using a closed boxed A. P. I. the reason why this is likely going to happen. This trend will likely come to fruition is because number one, the quality of the open source models is extremely high compared to what it was a year ago. And number two, I think people are trying to really get. figure out and tap into, the possibilities of the kind of software frameworks that you can build around these LLMs. and so as the toolscape starts maturing, as the stack starts evolving, people will eventually figure out how to, build very dynamic sort of compound systems, which involves not only vector stores and rag, but also kind of loop back with, feedback loops and having multiple agents at different places and multiple LLMs. So it will almost look like this complex graph that eventually, takes in some data at the beginning and does some complex action at the end. And the flexibility that open source models offer is a lot higher than using some closed box LLM as a, as a service.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":19,"time":"24:00","seconds":1440,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"completely agree. It's definitely an exciting time. That said, I do think there are some folks who are inflating the hype a little bit. personally, I don't think we are close to AGI, for example, under at least a transistor based model, unless we have some sort of major breakout, in how the technology works. Do you agree with that? Or what's your perspective on, where we are at AGI?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":20,"time":"25:00","seconds":1500,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"It's hard to have a yes or no answer for that. I do know that there's incredible innovation happening at various places, including some of the closed source sort of model service providers, places like Anthropic and places like OpenAI. They're doing phenomenal work. you know, if you look at their roadmap, if you think about, I mean, I don't, work there, so I don't know. But, based on what data points I can sort of connect and surmise, it's very clear that, the capabilities of these models, just these LLMs themselves, it's going to go much beyond just language and generating output text. They're doing incredible work to be able to have these models have actions baked in. And, I think just based on that, I can say that, we'll make tremendous progress in the next year or two years towards, what could be called AGI. but then again, people think of different things when they think of AGI, you know, the extreme being Terminator and all the fantasy movies. That's likely not going to happen, is my take, but we will see. You know, again, going back to what I was saying, you know, there's the floor, which will get uplifted next year, but the ceiling is where the excitement really is, because that kind of lays the possibilities for the next 3 to 5 years of innovation in this space. the ceiling will certainly be, very, very high next year, because this year there were improvements on two fronts, right? There's large enterprise and mid market businesses who started adopting what was coming out of these, innovation factories and figuring out how to practically use LLMs and LLM systems. but then there was also a lot of work done in the factory itself and a lot of that is going to come out. essentially all this is to say that the capabilities of the Gen AI models will be, far greater than what we are imagining, 2025 to hold. And I'm super excited about that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":21,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I think to your point, There are all these gains happening within the industry and within these very smart teams around quality efficiency looking at open source in particular, but it's not quite as exciting to talk about. Oh, we improved quality here. We improved efficiency there as it is to talk about. Oh, we can get to or, oh, we're going to build the next sky net or whatever else. so a lot of that kind of gets papered over by how the media is discussing this. So I appreciate you focusing in on. Here are these opportunities we don't have to necessarily get to AGI tomorrow to make this all worthwhile. It's like there are all these gains we can have. Atin, thank you so much for the time. I really appreciate it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":22,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Thank you. This was great.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":23,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, and listeners stay tuned. After the break, you'll hear more from Atin, along with our panelists.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":24,"time":"27:00","seconds":1620,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Unlock evaluation intelligence for your AI team with Galileo, the industry leading platform for evaluating Gen AI applications. Trusted by AI leaders like HP, Databricks, Comcast, Twilio, Headspace, CollegeVine, and many more, and powered by our proprietary Luna Evaluation Suite, Galileo enables evaluation driven development and observability for your AI systems. Learn more at Galileo. ai ​","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":25,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Panel Discussion","text":"Deploying AI at Enterprise Scale","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":26,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Next up, we've got our Applied AI Lessons from Deploying AI Enterprise Scale panel from Productionize. You'll hear from Mehmet Murat, Principal Software Architect at ServiceTitan, Grant Ledford, Senior Software Engineering Manager at Indeed, and Vinnie Giarrusso, Principal Software Engineer at Twilio, along with our favorite here, Atin Sanyal, Co Founder and CTO of Galileo, as our moderator.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":27,"time":"28:00","seconds":1680,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"thank you to all three of you for joining me here. so today I'll try to cover a bunch of topics related to, some of the realizations around deploying Gen AI at scale, particularly this year. but maybe I'll just start off with the different kinds of Gen AI solutions and sort of how do they compare with traditional app development? Maybe this is a question for all so we can do round robin on, what type of Gen AI solutions are you and your team leveraging today and how have you gone about developing them? Maybe Mehmet, we could start with you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":28,"time":"29:00","seconds":1740,"speaker":"Mehmet Murat Ezbiderli","text":"Yeah, sure thing. before getting into like some of the applications we do a lot, which are pretty much enhanced, maybe I should give a quick overview of what the company is doing. So we are a vertical SaaS company and we focus on the trades. from plumbing to HVAC, electrical, garages, roofing, and actually other trees. And the features are our customers are big and small, big shelves, enterprise that install your dishwashers, fix your electrical issues and such. And one of the motto that we have is changing lives. it's the first company I saw where there's some real backing into that. So the type of applications, there's a range. Some of them are nice. Some of them are like we talked in the POC mode. Um,we just had our, like, Canteen this year, which is our, like, customer, conference. we announced some, some products and some of them are like, their second chance leads, which is basically effectively where we do a reassessment of the conversation. It's been a customer and a customer support person for calls and see if that conversation result in a lead. And if the CSR marks it as a non lead, we reassess the conversation and say, Hey, actually this conversation was supposed to book a job. So can we give a call back? And we're like five minutes, we actually call back the customer and then turn into a lead. And there's been some revenue ROI numbers that are being pronounced by our customers. And we also do, we just announced our like virtual assistants, for example, that are like CSR, I don't want to call replacement, like counterparts or helpers to upload some of the, contact center management processes, from the, like be able to answer calls off office hours and book jobs for the customers and such, we also have assist teachers. that are like helping the technicians or go on a site and to the, to, assist them with some questions they might have. And literally like ask, ask on about like, Hey, how do I install this part? Or like how much warranty is left on this furnace and such so that there is enormous opportunities that we can directly translate them to some otherwise. But I want to just quickly tap on your other point, which is how does it change different from another application? I mean, the most obvious thing is. Deterministic versus undeterministic nature of the thing. So with the AI, traditional AI. Yes, there was a semi level of determinism where we could actually train a model, hold out test data, so we get some confidence about, okay, this model is going to perform fairly well, but the JNAI would, we don't have that. we just make some assumptions about the way that JNAI is like our LLM server. I'm going to perform, but there is no, like we put as many guardrails on it as possible, but even in like the pan shell from the calls we received, it's quite obvious that there is a high potential that the agents can hallucinate. They can give up fake up numbers. They can point to some inexistent websites and things like that. So, um, the, the primary thing, I think the challenge is shifting from like, I do my best and like test the hell out of my system to now I need to put guardrails and I don't know when it's going to break. So I need to be. I'm able to run the same test feedback over and over. And I also need to prevent that from happening on production. So those are the, that's the paradigm shift we're realizing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":29,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"That's super interesting.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":30,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Panel Insights","text":"Gen AI Solutions and Challenges","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":31,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"I know Vinnie, you're also sort of working on some early day advanced agentic systems, which are very similar. So maybe I'll just pass the same question on to you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":32,"time":"32:00","seconds":1920,"speaker":"Vinnie Giarrusso","text":"so at Twilio, we're building, an AI builder platform. And so for us, like we're not building any particular one type of application, and we're not really building any one particular type of solution. But what we're offering is the ability for our customers to do that, or the ability for our customers to say, this is my use case. I want to build this on top of your platform. And Twilio is accustomed to doing that. we provide APIs. you know, we have just so many users and so many use cases. it's honestly, it's incredible sometimes to come to work and find out some of these things. but that presents like a really big challenge for us, you know, as many of us saying, like, Nondeterminism is a thing. It's like the main thing here. and like, how do we determine, like, how do we do this safely? You know, how do we determine like a set of guardrails that works across, an unknown set of use cases? Like what is the baseline level of trust forage and AI and how do we get there? that's, that's sort of the question that we're asking ourselves today. and as it comes to multimodal, right. We even have. A lot of different challenges there. Like we, we have not solved prompt injections for text, right? But we have streaming voice to voice. We have speech to speech models that AI, uh, open AI just worked on with us. We have, video coming, like there's a whole bunch of other vectors that are coming soon that the industry is rushing towards. and we still have a lot of questions to answer, for even just the most basic of use cases.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":33,"time":"33:00","seconds":1980,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Absolutely. This is fascinating. Maybe Grant, since you're leading some, uh, AI infra teams, would love to understand maybe two questions for you on a related note. Like, number one, what is the difference you're seeing between, building and deploying traditional infrastructure versus gen AI infrastructure? And how do you think the new infrastructure is Melding in with the old infrastructure. Building & Deploying Traditional Infrastructure vs GenAI Infrastructure","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":34,"time":"34:00","seconds":2040,"speaker":"Grant Ledford","text":"Yeah. I work in a very similar space to what Vinnie mentioned as a platform team for building out these applications, but mine's internal to Indeed to let other Indeed product teams fill these out. And one big piece I noticed in this like differences. Is actually something that I think both Craig and May alluded to earlier, which is that kind of like builder shift, right? That we have a broader audience of people looking at building applications with these tools beyond just traditional D site background and. The tools that are then needed have to change and have to accommodate a larger swath of background context. So that's one, the other one is that without that kind of shared foundational knowledge, doing a one to one mapping of like, oh yeah, here's how you test an LLM that is similar to a concept you know, like similar to a concept of a unit test, may not actually exist and may not have that shared foundational understanding. And that's, that's kind of the other big one I've run into is that like helping people kind of map, like what are the right steps you should be doing? What options are available for you?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":35,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"shifting gears a little bit to talking about the Gen AI stack itself. Maybe Mehmet, a question for you is, when it came to sort of trade offs that you had to make while, using your existing infrastructure and putting in new elements like vector stores, et cetera, howwhat were some of those trade offs that you made while assembling the GenAI stack?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":36,"time":"35:00","seconds":2100,"speaker":"Mehmet Murat Ezbiderli","text":"yeah, so the trade offs can be in multiple dimensions and as you know, software is all about trade offs, but, I guess one dimension is really the cost, right? LLMs are still quite expensive. And a new LLM comes up, which is more fancy and shiny, which has much more reason capabilities and like much larger context windows and you want that because it you know, it solves your problem much better, but then you need to be very mindful of your costs. Because, I mean, in our observations, like for an actual virtual assistant thing, I don't know the exact numbers but the LLM cost was about at least half of the operational overhead. and this includes like all the computes and everything. So it's quite a big item. And that's why we typically need to see, okay, like, especially in rag context, for example, where you want to answer questions, like do we, how large of a window do we really want to use? Can we use, I mean, we can shuffle everything the context window and ask the questions, but then you're basically spending all that money per request. and with the rag, as most of us know that the large context defeats rag in pretty much all the, contextual Q&Abut this very. Like, I don't want to say cheap, but it's much more affordable, much more reasonable when you do a rag thing, because the vector databases are much cheaper, so then there's a question of what do I use for what, right? Like how much rag do I use and what, scenarios do I use rag? there is no great answer. Sometimes you use them, sometimes use one, sometimes use the other, but there's also new research coming up such as a self routes. Where you actually ask the LLM, can you answer this question for me? And, uh, with a rag window and it says, I cannot, then you build like the large context, so there's like staggered approaches that are emerging. So, and also like the other trade off is maybe like some models are great. They're fantastic. They reason well, but you don't need them for like the task at hand. For example, if you're just kind of the summarization or some sentiment detection, or maybe some simple reg decorator, 3. 5 works great. Whereas 4. 0 is great. Something that you might want to use for virtual assistants with reasoning and like. Contextual, awareness and things like that. And it's especially like, I want to highlight the importance of Golden Year Year in the sense that like which approach is better? There's no, again, deterministic outcome. Like you need to run your tests on your PlayStay test as many times. And look at your benchmarks saying, okay, like there's a higher likelihood that this approach is better. Even if that's not the end of the story, you need to do your due diligence of staggered deployments, you know, like real time monitoring, all that stuff still persists.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":37,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Vinnie, maybe, talking about toolkits and SDKs and frameworks a little bit. number one, what toolkits are you using? Is your stack fully Python? Are you using other frameworks? And what kind of libraries have you found to be most beneficial? And as a user who's sort of starting out zero to one, building out end to end Gen AI apps, how should one go thinking about, you know, what toolkits and frameworks to use?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":38,"time":"38:00","seconds":2280,"speaker":"Vinnie Giarrusso","text":"Yeah, really good question. I would say that you should use the tools that you're, most comfortable with. in the early keynote, Vikram was saying, you know, a lot of, ML engineers historically have, you know, Python is, is the place to be. TypeScript is quickly coming up. our team had this discussion as well. When we first started, we had a working POC built on Vercel. It was completely outside of like the Twilio infrastructure, but it was just, you know, just to get it going when we decided, okay, we're going to move this into a real thing. We had these discussions, like what languages are we going to use? Like what trade offs does that mean? Like if, if we choose TypeScript, are we losing out on some good Python? Libraries that don't offer a TypeScript package, or maybe their TypeScript package just doesn't have like the same level of rigor put into it as the Python package. so we, we made some trade offs right away. Uh, for us, we already had, a fully featured POC that was written in TypeScript, and We knew that a lot of engineers at Twilio would be more familiar with TypeScript than maybe Python. And so we just kept it like that. And we decided like at some point in the future, we're going to pull out the parts from TypeScript that fit better off into other languages. And that's exactly what we did. you know, we pulled out our chunking. Betting into a completely separate service and that service run Python because it's just easier to do there. It's more efficient. It's faster. It's better. the library and tooling is better there in some other areas. We kept it, as TypeScript, our LLM chain is still LangChain and TypeScript. It's been that way since day one. our public API that we put in front of everything that's written and go. it really depends on what your team is familiar with. that being said. I will also say, don't be afraid of new things. if, if you're , you know, a TypeScript engineer, it's okay to get your hands into some Python. It's all right to learn about, embedding models and it's okay to learn like how, how these things work and how they interact, because honestly you're going to need to, so I would say that like use the tooling that you're familiar with, but keep your eyes open for what's around the corner and what might be useful for you and other admins.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":39,"time":"40:00","seconds":2400,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Absolutely. That's also certainly a pattern that I have seen with our customers as well. on the topic of hallucinations, I'm curious to sort of get your platform take on this. how do you think about potentially, you know, you're building a platform that other users are building apps on top of and just building general infrastructure? How do you think about reducing the risk of hallucinations, particularly in the post-deployment scenario? Once the GenAi app is out there in the wild? Yeah. So I think a part of this is having, we have a system built out to help people run some initial safety checks as part of their observability, and then giving a lever for them. Okay. Once you get up running, you're going to need to customize this. You're going to find edge cases in your application.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":40,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Grant Ledford","text":"And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":41,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"You're going to get more data that will lead you to want to tweak these systems, these basic integrations. So having that configurability for teams to say, hey, we have like a base semantic similarity or something that says, hey, this looks like things we know are hallucinated or we do, that kind of context adherence check as part of our evaluation set. How can we monitor that in production?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":42,"time":"41:00","seconds":2460,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"that's been a big part of like what we're looking at in the platform side is how can we give those initial starting points for people to say, Hey, here's the right way is you can use these tools and then you can extend those as you actually get up and running. you know, we've kind of spent a lot of time, just as an industry kind of prototyping and putting early versions of these applications out. I'm curious to know all three of your perspectives. like what kind of Gen AI applications or, sub features that you've put out have started to show most substantial wins for the business. Maybe Vinnie, we could start with you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":43,"time":"42:00","seconds":2520,"speaker":"Vinnie Giarrusso","text":"I think a lot, a lot of the use cases that we're seeing like today are pretty much what you might expect. we see a lot of customer service use cases, would probably be our primary one. and so I think that like. for us when we look at, you know, what we want to do and how we want to do it going into production, we're really looking towards like, the, those most common use cases. And we talked about trade offs earlier, another, the sort of the inverse of making trade offs is like which ones you're not going to trade off on. and so from the beginning we had a very, strong idea about like how our customers might want to use a product like this, but we weren't exactly sure, but we definitely had things that we knew we weren't going to trade off on, like we're not going to trade off on security, for example. we're not going to trade off on anything that's going to make our application less trustworthy for our customers. So. when it comes to like, you know, specific use cases in the ROI, like ours is very, uh, wildly varying. but you know, customer use cases, uh, customer centers is, is definitely like eye on, on the top of the list for sure.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":44,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Got it. No, that's very interesting. I'm curious to know your take on this. any, workflows you've seen. be a hit with customers of service Titan.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":45,"time":"43:00","seconds":2580,"speaker":"Mehmet Murat Ezbiderli","text":"Yeah. I mean in transparency, we are still like evolving in the game, right? I mean, there are a lot of POCs like last year and they were just started to roll out some of those. the main application that we roll as what I mentioned earlier, which was the second chance leads, which is actually an ROI generator because you basically detect the lead that was already missed. So there's some significant, there's good feedback from our customers about the ROI, basically, in terms of the other type of, applications we're looking to ship, which are announced are that our customers are very interested. and we have potential, a lot of ROI is the virtual assistants, obviously, which is. If you take off all that, like if you're able to answer a call about business hours, that's a win for the business. That's a win for the show. If in a spike season, when there's a heat wave coming in, all the lines are booked. And if your assistant can help not only team the customer and help them wait, but actually help them get their questions, like find the right type of job and like find the right appointment slot and actually perform the booking. Like that's a huge ROI expectation. Again, that's not yet like rolled out. the other ROIs are basically helping, um,like. in the call center scenario, like guiding and mentoring the call CSR assistant, like once they had a call, how did the call go really? Like did the CSR asks the right type of questions and like show empathy and like follow the protocol, So being able to assess that and like show it to the mentor or the manager. So they can actually work with those partners. What you gain is like a higher skillset and maybe time savings. And finally, like some of the assist features that we just announced, which is like helping a technician or an accounting person or whatever domain, like being able to answer their specific domain, specific questions, or maybe like showing some tailored recommendations at certain times. those are the things we'll be looking at. Hopefully the next couple of years, there's going to be almost like an explosion of the RLipo.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":46,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"I know, Vinnie, I know Twilio is of course doing agentic stuff, but also leveraging multimodal. Like, I'm curious to know if, sort of challenges have you seen in the early going as you've been building out these applications, maybe if you could focus maybe on evals, that would be interesting.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":47,"time":"45:00","seconds":2700,"speaker":"Vinnie Giarrusso","text":"I mean, a lot of times they don't exist yet, you know, and we're, when we're talking about speech to speech, there's not a lot of good options for testing that out, you know, because it is very much in the, in the super, super early days. And so when we think about, how we're going to run evals on this, for example, there's obviously a very large set of technical considerations. we're moving from a model where it's like HTTP requests, client server, and it's just, you know, send one back and forth and you just wait for the next one to setting up a WebSocket connection and streaming and just waiting for streams to come back. how does that interact with the current systems that we have today? and so that, that's sort of where we're looking at. And so for evals in particular. we are concerned with the, one to one mapping of input and output, but as we move to multimodal and we have, other sorts of considerations in there. task based evals are going to be, you know, something that we're particularly interested in, it might be really difficult for us to, across text and video and voice to have the same level of rigor between all three of those when we create our evals. but, if we look at the ends. that might be a little bit easier for us to start out before we start, merging into the middle and getting into the nitty gritty of like, did it stream back the right thing? And then like, did we catch the stream halfway through and did we catch the interrupt and what happened when we interrupted it? And like all this stuff, like, so there's just a ton of technical considerations that just don't have solutions for. So we try to find the areas where there is like maybe a half a solution that we can, you know, help with and work with people to find the rest of it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":48,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"maybe related to that grant, since you're sort of building a platform, like how do you, just given the subjectiveness of, the output quality and just the lack of, you know, objective metrics around a lot of these evolving workflows, like how do you set expectations with. your customers, but who are the builders and then finally, you know, the eventual customers of Indeed. Like, how do you set expectations around number one, you know, what a successful Gen AI platform can do and how do you set, set up your users for success essentially?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":49,"time":"47:00","seconds":2820,"speaker":"Grant Ledford","text":"Yeah. So like part of this is figuring out what kind of tools toolkit, then guiding them on how they can use those, what levers they can pull to accomplish different goals. Mehmet mentioned earlier some of the pieces around like different models might be work for different use cases better, maybe a smaller model if you're trying to do something that needs that faster latency, or you can have that like context window for a larger context window model might let you do a solution without having to rag based solution, then you get into things like prompt caching. So giving people that kind of suite of, hey, here's your options and the leverage you can pull that would give you different success metrics is one of them. But then the other, and this is actually more of a broader product piece, is how do you measure success for your application as a whole once you've built something with this? and being able to actually keep a tight feedback loop on that so you know not just like, is my model doing what I expected it to, is my application with this model doing what I expected it to, but it's actually moving a business metric we care about. so my team's worked really closely with a couple of kind of our early adopters here. To help measure and get that feedback loop of like, did this move what you expected it to do?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":50,"time":"48:00","seconds":2880,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Uh, just an interest of time. One last super short question for all three of you, sort of final thoughts as we enter 2025. Mehmet, we can start with you. Like, what do you think your personal take on what the next year looks like for enterprise gen A. I. What trends do you think we'll see and what use cases will be like the top ones?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":51,"time":"49:00","seconds":2940,"speaker":"Mehmet Murat Ezbiderli","text":"okay. So I think I'm going to rely back on like the previous conversation where there is a POC stage and now like the actual productionalizing stage, I would expect some of the POCs that has been done and some of the enhancements to actually exploit themselves and become productionalized services. Like if you look at Salesforce, they just announced the assist force, for example. So I see a strong inclination and direction towards using assistance. Eventually like having a cell. Assistant, co pilot, wherever you go from your personal thing to a business scenario. So those issues scenarios, I think it's going to become more, more common. I see a lot of buzz around the assistants working together to accomplish complex workflows. Like if I have a complex business problem, instead of me going out like knocking 10 doors, I just assign it to my assistants. And they go and talk to each other and like find out what's the right way. is it going to be next year? I think there's going to be some things we're going to see next year. They're like incremental steps, but I see that sort of like automated running of business in the horizon for sure.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":52,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Fantastic. Vinnie, maybe one liner from you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":53,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Vinnie Giarrusso","text":"I think we're probably going to see a little bit of a tempering on the excitement of AI, like everyone, like, obviously there's huge potential here and most companies are like, how are we going to use this? But I think over the next year, what we're probably going to see is like a more modest approach, a more measured approach to getting this into your, um, you know, your companies and getting it into a state where you can trust it just as much as any other piece of software. I hope that's the case. I'm also excited about all the other stuff, but I'd love to get some stability too. And Grant.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":54,"time":"50:00","seconds":3000,"speaker":"Grant Ledford","text":"Yeah, I think there's two, I'd say one is compound systems and that has an infrastructure as a whole so you can actually build out more complex use cases and have confidence that those work well. And the other is that, as we saw in like the keynote, there's a ton of players in the kind of tooling and infrastructural space for building all on based applications and as the winners and subcategories get identified, it'll be easier to get all those pieces to play well together. So I think that's something that will happen more over the next year as well, is there'll be some clear front runners that get better tie in and an option.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":55,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Absolutely. I'm certainly very excited to see all of this sort of come together and see something truly useful that works at scale. But thank you all three of you so much.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio","episode":6,"guid":"11ac0b90-a85d-4fd5-94e9-3354eab14167","episodeTitle":"The Enterprise AI Deployment Playbook | ServiceTitan, Indeed & Twilio","publishedAt":"2024-12-11","segmentIndex":56,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"That's it for this week. Thanks so much for listening. Make sure to subscribe to chain of thought for your podcasts and we'll see you next week.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/6-the-enterprise-ai-deployment-playbook-servicetitan-indeed-and-twilio/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Welcome back to Chain of Thought. I'm Conor Bronsdon, Head of Developer Awareness at Galileo. And welcome back, Vikram Chatterji, Co Founder and CEO at Galileo. How are you doing, Vikram?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":1,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Thanks, Conor. Doing good. Good to be here. How you doing?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":2,"time":"1:00","seconds":60,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I'm good. I'm excited for this conversation, and particularly I'm excited not only to talk to you, but for the second half of this conversation where our listeners are going to get to hear from some fantastic panelists who joined us for productionized 2. 0 to discuss evaluating Gen AI. Vivienne Zhang, senior product manager, generative AI software at NVIDIA. And another ex NVIDIA person, Chip Huyen, folks may know her as the author of Designing Machine Learning Systems. She's now at TEP Studio, and was formerly VP at Fultron Data. you've probably seen her on X or Twitter or LinkedIn at some point. we're gonna definitely play that conversation later in the episode. But before we do, we're gonna explore the various methods and techniques used to evaluate Gen AI models. It's become a hot topic as we think about not only evaluation intelligence broadly, but also evaluation driven development and the need to really build from first principles with evaluating and observing genetic systems in mind, particularly given that at times these models can be a bit of black boxes and the ethical considerations, the governance considerations that come in around this beyond simply the practical. So, Vikram, let's start by talking about this challenge of evaluating generative AI. What makes this evaluation process for gen AI difficult compared to traditional software systems?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":3,"time":"2:00","seconds":120,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Yeah, Conor, that's I think the, question of the hour, it seems like with most AI companies and AI teams that we work with. there's a couple of things that come to mind, right? Like number one, it's, if you look at evaluations in general, it's not a new term for AI, right? But it was mostly done by data scientists. So if you talk to a data science team about evaluations, it's very natural to them. There's no other way of. of. doing things. You would have to have, uh, you have to have a training set. You have to have a test set. You have to compare the two over time. You have to, uh, you know, fine tune with the right kind of data. It all comes down to looking at the inputs, looking at the outputs. It's science, right? It's experimentation. But if you compare that to traditional software engineering and look at the kind of, the persona of the people who are building out apps increasingly, it's not just the data scientists anymore. There are like 500, 000 data scientists in the world, but there are 30 million developers out there that now can just. Invoke these LLMs with just an API call. So, that's where it's a little bit new, it's tough because it's introducing the concept of some of the concepts of data science to software engineers so that they can experiment And when you're experimenting rigorously for, for software engineers, what that means is now they have to think about a couple of different things. One, what are the different pieces of the puzzle that I need to bring in? including, like, the right kind of prompt, the right kind of model, the right kind of, I don't know, the vector store that you want to use if you want to use one. If you want to bring in an entire orchestration system, like LangChain, LlamaIndex, you want to make that determination quickly. A lot of people don't do that. They just build their own chains. so you have to make all of these determinations for the different parts of your stack with agents and multimodal models. This expands a little bit more. So that's,that's number one is thinking through. What's the assembly that I have, that I'm playing with? that's not necessarily new for software engineers. They're all, you know, if you're a software engineer and you're building out an app, you're already thinking about, you know, what's the right database, what's the right structure I want to bring in, what are the right function calls. All that stuff is not brand new. What is new is, from there on, When you want to just run an application through this or build, do a singular run through this compound system that you brought in, all of a sudden you have to think about, what's the right context I can provide this with, if it's a RAGBASE system. Now it's not Easy and it's not simple enough to just point it to a knowledge base and hope that it works You kind of also have to massage that knowledge base and convert that into a format that is actually consumable by this entire system So that's net new work that you have to kind of figure out you have to evaluate that context and now you have to evaluate the prompt itself You have to figure out what the responses look like Now, within all of this, now you have to figure out, what's a good test set that you can actually use? What are the right metrics that you can actually use? All of this is new. The idea of coming up with a high quality test set, the idea of using specific metrics that don't exist, like it's not cost and latency anymore, which may be like in the world of Datadog, you could just get that out of the box, but now these metrics don't exist. so what are the right kind of metrics? evaluation metrics that I can use. But then again, like once I do figure out that something's wrong or right, how do I get into the mindset of rigorously testing these entire pieces out using an ABN comparison over time? And then what do I do in production? So there's a lot of net new items that folks have to come to terms with, which is what's leading to, a lot of noise around, Hey, I do evaluations in this way. And then I do evaluations this other way. I'm using just an LLM as a judge and somebody else says, I'm just throwing humans at the problem and doing wipe checks and it's fine. And so we're all of these things in the market versus. just coming together and understanding like what are the, true principles that you could use in order to do this the correct way, which is why we don't hear this. The question that we hear a lot from users is not so much about, Hey, evaluations are not necessary. It's more about evaluations are just hard because the process is just very difficult to come to terms with.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":4,"time":"6:00","seconds":360,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"and you brought up the example of AI agents, and I think that's a great one to illustrate the challenge of effective evaluations within AI, because these systems are really unique. They use LLMs to plan out their actions. They can take actions via real world tools and APIs, and often they have multi turn or multi agent workflows. So we're seeing builders want to evaluate kind of three parts of that agentic workflow. The step level of was the right tool chosen and used correctly at each individual point of the workflow. The turn level, were the steps actually performed in the correct order to reach the correct conclusion. And then of course session level of the workflow. is that final result accurate, but that's something that's really only started to come into clarity in the last couple of months here. we're seeing this in industry surveys, but even while we're hearing that agents are kind of the hot topic, only 13 percent or so of AI builders right now are already leveraging agents. even if we expect to see that, percentage massively increase, how many of those folks are actually effectively evaluating their agents? it doesn't seem like that many so far.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":5,"time":"7:00","seconds":420,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Yeah, that's true. what we've been hearing from a lot of these companies and our partners is it's really fun to watch because we've seen a lot of these people go from NLP based techniques for chatbots, et cetera, to using large language models with prompts. To run using rag based systems and feeling like, aha, we finally got this, it's kind of working. But then if only I could take this action with the tool, that would be amazing. And split it just being this random chatbot. If I can just answer the user's question and also do this thing. And now with the agents, they're basically saying like, finally, we can do this. Here's an API call I can make and can be one of four API calls. Let's just have the, LLM to this API call, right? And that's basically what an agent is. we're seeing that as they've progressed down this road with every single added piece of complexity, that all these new questions about like, I'm super excited about this, but wait, how do I know if, when this gets wrong? Like, how do I know that's actually gone wrong? And to your point, it does get into the nuances, right? I keep mentioning how for, All of this, it's very important to have the brass tacks in place. The brass tacks, meaning you got to have the right kind of logging systems. You have to, like, even when you're shipping a product, you have to be able to log everything to know what's going wrong. It's very similar, right? In an agentic system, you've got to log every single part of the puzzle, which API call was made, which ones are not made. Why not? When the API call was made, what happened right after that? And being able to see that in a way which just makes sense for you. That's brass tacks to me. That's the tracers and loggers. There are. 100, 000 different kinds of tools out there that can do that. Open source, free, what have you. Very easy to make. You shouldn't make it yourself. Use one of the 100, 000 tools out there for evaluation for that. Tracers and loggers, lots of them. the part which becomes interesting now is for your specific use case, for your specific agent, how do you figure out what the right kind of metrics are? How do you measure this in an effective way? And that's what takes a lot of iteration. And that's the part which you're seeing a lot of people trip up with. and how do I know if the agent actually got to completion or not? you can have an out of the box metric, which a lot of maybe folks are going to say that they have, but, it takes iteration because that just depends a lot on the specific use case that you're gonna ship. So that's the part where, from a software perspective, from an evaluation perspective, it's very important to kind of nudge the user in the right direction so that they can actually get that determination of what right metrics are and be able to see that in a very explainable way. as and when these systems get more and more complicated, it's going to become even more important to log the right stuff, to be able to create the right kind of metrics, to test out those kinds of metrics, and then be able to visualize these, responses and, uh, the traces in an effective way. Especially as we enter RAG plus Agents plus Multimodal, it's going to get, very interesting.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":6,"time":"10:00","seconds":600,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Completely agreed. And I think that's why we're starting to hear thought leaders throughout the space. Think about evaluations as kind of a P0 for building AI applications. and you're going to hear Vivienne and Chip talk about this more later in the episode. part of the challenge here is that because we're now leveraging these non deterministic software systems, It's hard and quite subjective to understand what good or bad responses can be at times. So, how can we work to establish more objective criteria for evaluating generative AI, and especially when dealing with these open ended tasks? Like, how can we determine what's good?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":7,"time":"11:00","seconds":660,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"for determining what's, what's good, it always comes down to just the right kind of, guardrails in place. And it depends so much upon, your use cases. This is again, where we keep trying to educate, different teams with this notion that What's good for you might be different for what's good for somebody else. For even a very similar kind of use case, as an example, for chatbots, for turn by turn, chat applications, you might, and if it's, let's say it's based on rag, there are a lot of these metrics which are now out of the box, right? Like, does this, does the response adhere to the context that was provided or not? Does the response adhere to the from the previous responses and inputs from the user in the chat or not. But, you know, a chatbot for, let's say, buying shoes from Nike is very different from a chatbot that, let's say, a patient is using with a healthcare provider. Right? The risks are different. Like, for Nike, maybe the risk is much, lower. and so they don't need to have governance guardrails and compliance guardrails in place. But whereas when you talk to the healthcare provider, there's a lot on the line here. The developer over there has to not just think about the specific use case and the nuances of the use case, but also has to think about. things like I have to be HIPAA compliant. And what does that mean? And how does that translate into different kind of guardrails? And maybe I'm working out of the EU. So now I have the EU AI Act guardrails to also bake into place. How do I make that happen? our general thesis on this has been list out all of the different kinds of gotchas that you can think about from a system perspective that could go wrong, meaning context adherence, prompt quality, et cetera. come up with that list, come up with a list from a use case perspective that could go wrong, come up with a list from a regulatory and compliance perspective. And then now for all of these, try to figure out, can you convert these each and every one of them into actual guardrails that you can codify, right? Whether they're LLM powered or code based and bake that into your system for every single developer. A lot of them might not be able to just codify. And so thosehave to be taken care of through humans in the loop. that's the determination that you have to make to figure out how you're going to be attacking the system to answer the simple question of, is this good or not? it's very nuanced.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":8,"time":"13:00","seconds":780,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah, and one of the key challenges that we've seen with LLMs and AI more broadly is this idea of hallucinations when an AI model will produce incorrect or misleading information. And I know it's something Galileo has talked quite a bit about. Anyone who has been familiar with us has probably seen a couple of versions of our hallucination index that have come out. where we've identified which models have tendencies to hallucinate and tracked metrics for them. but as you'll hear later, this episode in our panel with Chip and Vivienne, they suggested that hallucinations aren't always a bad thing. Can you explain that concept further for our audience? Are Hallucinations Bad?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":9,"time":"14:00","seconds":840,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"they're not necessarily a bad thing in the sense that Again, it depends on the context in which we are saying this, right? So it's, it's not a bug, it's obviously a feature. hallucination is basically something that the model is coming up with, and it might not be something that makes a lot of sense, but, The model is kind of like an operating system or a brain, quite literally, where it's learning from a bunch of stuff. And if the stuff that you've taught it, it doesn't make any sense. And then you're asking a question that's outside of its comprehension. It's going to say something that doesn't make quite, quite a lot of sense. Now, when it does that, it's possible that it's actually saying something which is net new. It's a lot like asking, uh, asking a baby a question. And sometimes, you know, kids say the darndest things where they'll say something and you'll be like, Wait, that doesn't make sense, but oh, wait a second. It does. That's beautiful. That's amazing. Why couldn't we think of that? It's because we have a lot of guardrails in place already over the course of time with age. Right? So that's kind of how I see, like poetry, for instance, and you need, you need a creative, freedom there. And oftentimes, like models will come up with stuff, which will be really interesting and really poetic. And you can, you might not have been able to come up with that yourself. There, Hallucinations are a good thing. And they're definitely a part of how these. models think. And so then the question becomes, given complete free reign, the models can say anything, which is beautiful and amazing and really interesting and fascinating. But when you get into applications and software development, it's a lot about, curtailing risk and minimizing risk and bringing regulations into play, bringing your specific use case elements into play. And that's why. hallucinations started to become your, the bane of your existence. so it becomes a little bit of a, of a chicken and egg at that point, where you want to use this powerful system because it's going to come up with something which is outside of what you programmed it to do. But at the same time, you wanted to follow the rules. I am seeing more and more, you know, these, creative use cases are fewer and far between in the enterprise, which is why there's considered, hallucinations or something that you consider just reigning in as much as you can.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":10,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"as developers determine what constitutes a hallucination for their application, How do you think they should be thinking about this?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":11,"time":"16:00","seconds":960,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"hallucinations is definitely one aspect of, looking at whether the response was good or not. And now, you know, if you dive deeper into that, it could mean a couple of different things. One is, If you're using, an open, like a closed book system, like a non rag based system where the response could be anything from anywhere, then it becomes very much about the accuracy of the response. And that accuracy could be very much from a factual perspective, like does this actually make sense? It could also be from, a semantic perspective and a sense making perspective, whether this actually makes sense or not. Is this even a real English sentence or is this even a sentence? those are things that you can create guardrails around. but then there's, That's more around the correctness of the response, and the semantic, toxicity of the response, and things of that nature, which I feel like are, at least the latter is an easier problem to solve. The overall correctness of a response is a little bit harder to do because there is no, global fact checker that you can use unless you use another powerful LLM in the loop that is, trained with data up until, the last couple of days to the present day. but the other kind of hallucination if let's say you're using a rag based system, It's hallucinating just because it might be giving out a response which is outside of the syllabus that you gave it, right? And in which case, if the, if it's only supposed to give you responses about world history and you ask it a question about, when was Rome built and starts giving you a response, which is, I don't know about, Caesar's palace in Las Vegas, then it's outside of the syllabus that he gave it. It's trying to give the right response and maybe the response is right, but it's outside of the syllabus. And so that's a hallucination, but it's much more use case specific. So those are some, the closed book and open book, are two ways in which we've seen people think about hallucinations at a high level. That again, that's just one form of, model response guardrail type that we think about that our developers should think about.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":12,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And this, I think, speaks to the need to consider human in the loop systems as well, particularly as we think about these agentic workflows. I know you have some thoughts on human loop systems. What's your perspective on them?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":13,"time":"18:00","seconds":1080,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"I think they're necessary. I think they're never gonna, for this one, I generally say never say never, but for this one, I feel like they're never going to go away. just like for software design as well, right? Like we, when, Software applications were being built out initially. the idea was we'd be, we can just get rid of humans completely in the loop. And now this is a, it's just if else statements, et cetera, and they can just launch this application. We don't need humans in the loop for anything, but what we quickly realized was you need quality testing. You need humans to look at the exception cases. You need subject matter experts to understand why things went wrong and fix that. That is much more pronounced in the world of AI application development, where there is the opportunity for edge cases are a lot more and you need somebody to have that semantic understanding of exactly what the use case is and what the right answer should have been to be able to help you give that response for any neural network based application. This is just going to be the case. Even if you fine tune this, LLM with the world's best data, as soon as you put this into production, I can guarantee you. All of your biases and all of your best laid plans are going to completely go off the rails and you're going to see users come in with all sorts of other kinds of questions and now you'll need humans in the loop to help figure out how to improve your test set, to figure out where do your metrics start failing you and how to start to improve that again. Humans in the loop are absolutely necessary. I do feel like they should not be the first line of defense. that's too expensive and that's what we need to move away from, but you do need to make that maybe the second or the third line of defense, but start using them more intelligently versus just throwing the kitchen sink at them. That's kind of what I see happening a lot across many other, many AI app developers today, but that's not how it should, they should be used, but they're absolutely a necessary part of the entire value chain.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":14,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Fantastic. Vikram, do you have any closing thoughts you want to share with the audience?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":15,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"evaluation and observability is these are just really important parts of the application development lifecycle. We are maturing as an ecosystem in terms of how best to evaluate and how best to monitor these applications. What kind of metrics work? What kind of metrics don't work? But remembering that this is a science and not just classic software engineering is very important. and so I'm pretty bullish on the idea that software developers are going to align across the board on a very specific way of evaluating the systems. and, uh, we'll all be better for it very quickly.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":16,"time":"20:00","seconds":1200,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Fantastic. Vikram, thank you so much. listeners stay tuned after a quick break. You'll hear from our panel as they dive more into evaluations in AI. Unlock evaluation intelligence for your AI team with Galileo, the industry leading platform for evaluating Gen AI applications. Trusted by AI leaders like HP, Databricks, Comcast, Twilio, Headspace, CollegeVine, and many more, and powered by our proprietary Luna Evaluation Suite, Galileo enables evaluation driven development and observability for your AI systems. Learn more at Galileo. ai Next up, we've got our practical lessons from GenAI evals panel from Productionize 2.0. You'll hear from Chip Huyen, storyteller from TEP studio and acclaimed author, Vivienne Zhang, senior product manager, generative AI software at NVIDIA, and Atin Sanyal, co founder and CTO at Galileo as our moderator.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":17,"time":"21:00","seconds":1260,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"The topic of today is Gen AI evals and any practical lessons that we can sort of take away from how, the eval, landscape has evolved from 2023 going into 2025. so we'll cover a bunch of things, including, challenges, that we've seen and the various approach solutions to evals, how evals can vary from, uh,case to case. As well as the role of human in the loop, the hot topic of hallucinations, of course, and some of the other challenges, some of the newer challenges which have emerged post production once you deploy your app, because that's something that a new muscle that has built up more recently. But I'll kick things off with a more high level question, chip. This is a question for you. like, why do you think, evaluation is such a big challenge in generative AI. And if you could make a comparison of evaluations in gen AI to more traditional non generative classic machine learning.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":18,"time":"22:00","seconds":1320,"speaker":"Chip Huyen","text":"How much time do we have? so I do believe that evaluation is. The biggest, one of the biggest, if not the biggest challenge of gen AI productions. So there are multiple reasons why it's hard. I think one reason is that the more intelligent AI becomes, the more challenging it is to evaluate its outcome. So anyone, like almost everyone can tell whether the solution to a first grade math problem is wrong, but it's really hard to tell whether the solution to a PhD math level question is wrong. the second is that Jenny, I also introduce open ended, which so before a lot of applications were closed and that first of all, like, classification. So, even though I spam on a spam, if you notice the app, what is spam? You can compare with, like, they say, what it is expected in a spam, then it's wrong. But we open ended output. It's like, so hard. So, first of all, if you are tomorrow to summarize a book as a summary, might sound very reasonable. So you actually might have to read the entire book to see whether the summary is good or not. I think it's a good two key reasons. I mean, I can go on and on, but I would love to hear more from as a panelist.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":19,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"No, absolutely. Um,Vivienne, I'm curious to get what your take is on this.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":20,"time":"23:00","seconds":1380,"speaker":"Vivienne Zhang","text":"Yeah, I've actually felt Chip just said what I wanted to say, but I'm just going to give more examples in the same vein and so hopefully we drive it home. as the systems become more intelligent, right, the people, or more specifically subject matter experts, are qualified to do this assessment. Just the number of people just becomes fewer. to give you an example, NVIDIA has a co pilot to enable our designers chip designers to design chips faster and better. And I have to take a look at some of the sample questions and answer. And someone like me who has no hardware design background has no idea what the question is, not, not even speaking about the answer quality. So if we think about how complex the tasks we're now throwing at our general applications, the difficulty in an assessment has also increased. And then the second point is that, just like, as Chip said, it's non deterministic. And so maybe to just give you an example, like I think a lot of our users can head to OMSYS or something called RewardBench, which are open leaderboards, where you can find samples of A B answers from models. And you can see actually a lot of humans don't agree on which answer is better. There's no right answer, and there could be 10 different answers. for one, correct answer and you need to design a system to assess that. And that's very difficult.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":21,"time":"25:00","seconds":1500,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Just continuing on that thought, so I'm curious to know from your standpoint, you know, seeing users use Nemo, evaluation was traditionally sort of looked upon as this point in time kind of activity, you know, just viewing evals as a statistic or some number that you slap onto a data frame. I mean, in light of that, that has clearly proven to be insufficient. so having seen users use Nemo and from your experience, how have you seen folks sort of bridge that gap and, what have you seen users typically do to address this gap?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":22,"time":"26:00","seconds":1560,"speaker":"Vivienne Zhang","text":"Yeah, I think the point in time activity you're talking about is, you know, typically the app developer will curate a data set and then they measure the application's performance against that benchmark and get it. By the way, that actually sets you probably ahead of the big crowd already, because I feel a lot of application developers also just do a vibe check and then send it to production. I think is very, very important is after you release the application, When it's in production, it's almost a different ball game. The queries we're going to get are much, much more complex and involve a lot of different edge cases. I think what I've seen working is that you simply have to keep iterating. You have to capture the user feedback, the usage data, and systematically troubleshoot what have tripped up your LLM and then improve the system. Again, you're going back to. The Chipnimo example at NVIDIA, we have seen a lot of when at the beginning, when the co pilot was failing, is that the answer simply doesn't exist in the database. So we need to go back and improve the data instead of the model system. And similarly, we're also seeing some of the chunks got cut off at all places, and then we need to change the chunking strategy. So I think do a lot of releases, capture user feedback, and then systematically improve the system iteratively is super important.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":23,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Yeah, that touches upon the role of human feedback here as well.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":24,"time":"27:00","seconds":1620,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"but, you know, shifting gears to talking about post deployment, evaluations, Chip, from your experience, like what are the top things that you AI system once it's deployed?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":25,"time":"28:00","seconds":1680,"speaker":"Chip Huyen","text":"there are a lot of things that could go wrong with evaluations. And I think one of the number one mistakes I see people make is that not defining clearly the guideline for evaluation criteria. for example, like,a lot of what use as a judge to evaluate the output of the model is a really depend on evaluate judges. However, I talked to a team, and I was, okay, so what metrics do you use? I always mentioned coherence, relevancy, and people use these metrics as if they're exact metrics. But they're actually very highly dependent on the models you use, on the prompt you use for the judge. And this is a big mistake I see, it's like, the people who maintain those metrics, the people who maintain and use the metrics. Are different people, so say, like, if say, the metric team suddenly change the problem, maybe don't make a mistake, and actually, I've gone through a lot of, like, evaluation tools, open source, open tools, I can see the problems that you explore. But there's not just a lot of them have typos, like, almost every single one have a little typo. And so, like, people can fix type over time to impose a prompt. So, like, the score, I think you need to use a score, but you can't trust them because those scores themselves change over time to the 90 percent different from yesterday 90%. So, it's very hard. And the other is just like, what is a good or bad evaluation, score means? So, uh, LinkedIn has a really good phase study. So they review a bot to have candidates evaluate whether a job is a good fit for them, and they found out that, a lot of correct responses are not good response. For example, if the candidate asked the bot like, Hey, am I a good fit for this role, the bot would respond, No, you're a terrible fit. So it is a correct response, but it's not a good. So you have to spend a lot of time curating what is a good and bad guidelines. and I feel like sometimes we just get lazy because we have to explain what it is and we'll just skip the step and hoping AI judges will figure it out and it doesn't quite go that way.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":26,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Right. No, totally.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":27,"time":"29:00","seconds":1740,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"and I guess related to that, you know, hallucinations has also sort of become an AI judge related metric. I know a lot of,folks use LLM as judges to detect hallucinations. But Chip, related to your previous point, about, the kind of mistakes you could make in these sort of metrics. In context of RAG hallucinations, for example, if I were to build an AI as a judge metric, number one, is that the right technique? Are there alternatives for me to evaluate hallucinations in RAG? And what are some of those limitations of using, say, AI as a judge to detect RAG hallucinations?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":28,"time":"30:00","seconds":1800,"speaker":"Chip Huyen","text":"So I usually like, when I give talk in person, I usually ask like, who thinks hallucination is a big issue and almost everyone raises a hand. And then they ask the next question, like, who here can explain what hallucination is? Like almost nobody raises their hand. So, so I think like, but what is hallucinations? So, so I think it's like, I usually think of a hallucination. Usually it's a hallucination is not a bad thing. I'm very into creative use cases. So I think hallucinations is going to be really, really great things for creative use cases. It's a bad thing for like use cases that depend on factual consistency. So hallucinations are bad when it's factually inconsistent with what is considered likethe facts. So like, it's very important to understand what the facts are. And we still don't know, there's still many things we don't understand by hallucinations. But one thing we do know is that models are more likely to hallucinate when it does not have access to the necessary and correct information to answer questions. So I think that's why RAC is so important, like it's so powerful, because RAC was created for like knowledge intensive use cases, because it gives the model access to contexts that are supposedly relevant and important for the model to answer questions. So what we're trying to evaluate is whether, the context we retrieve is, relevant and correct to the questions. And second, based on this context, can the answers be, relevant and correct Let's a content to reach your context to the end of the question. So I think like this is actually a new task in natural language processing. I'm not sure people coming from here familiar with the term, you know, I like natural language inference or like contextual entailment. So with those ideas, it's like given a hypothesis and a statement, can you derive the statement from the hypothesis? For example, like, if you have the saying, source is good for you. So if you say, I know it's good for you, you can derive that from the statement because it's like one of the fruit, but if you're saying it's like bananas expensive, that is neutral, right? You can't derive that from the statement. So, like, yes, I do think it's like, AI. I don't think that's strictly how they should model, but I think like, AI in general can be very useful for that. You can train a classification model, like, given this hypothesis, given this statement, given this context, given this answer, can the answer be derived, like, consistent with the context.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":29,"time":"32:00","seconds":1920,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"In fact, I was just going to say that, even at Galileo, a lot of the innovations that we've done with our lunar suite of models and, our hallucination detection model essentially takes the principle of textual entailment. And we've done a bunch of innovations on top of that to improve the accuracy of the hallucination detection. But NLI is certainly very core to, how we have defined rag hallucinations as well. but, Vivienne, in on the topic of hallucinations, I'm curious, you've worked with users of Nemo and I'm sure you've kind of had a good broad, swath of, understanding of different use cases. And I'm curious to know, how have you seen users of Nemo or, or, you know, just AI practitioners define, mean when they say hallucinations to Chip's point? especially in context of enterprise Gen AI and, yeah, I'm just curious to know what users mean when they say hallucinations.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":30,"time":"33:00","seconds":1980,"speaker":"Vivienne Zhang","text":"Yeah, I thought Chip's explanation is super interesting and probably a lot more comprehensive and thoughtful than what I will provide. I think I have a very simplified view representing users, which is the application gives an answer that looks correct, but it's not what the user is looking for, and I will consider that a hallucination. So, Jensen actually gives a very good example from this, this years GTC earlier, so I'm going to stick with a Chibnemo example. So basically he asked the Chibnemo co pilot, what is a CTL? And a answer that is generally accepted is a combinational time logic, but that's not the right answer for this context for a chip designer. The right answer is Compute Trace Library. It's specific to NVIDIA, and it's what the user needs. And can you imagine like a new, designer going into meetings and everyone is talking about CTL and somehow it just does not make sense. And so I think for a naive user, this answer is just as insidious, as unhelpful, as an answer that's completely wrong. it can still be extremely confusing. And if you extrapolate to legal, healthcare, finance, many high stakes use cases, best, it's a poor user experience and at worst, it can be harmful or even dangerous.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":31,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Absolutely. there's a couple of topics around use cases that I'd love to talk about next. One is code generation and the other is, um, agentic systems. So let's start with code generation.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":32,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"I have a question for you both. so we have had models like OpenAI Codex and Code Llama, which are sort of specifically designed for code gen. And they're pretty fantastic models. I love both your take on this, given that these models already generate code and on top of that, there's nuanced code gen use cases like code by co pilots, et cetera. What does evaluating an AI coding assistant really boil down to? If the top three things, if you both could talk about chip, maybe we can start with you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":33,"time":"35:00","seconds":2100,"speaker":"Chip Huyen","text":"coding is one of the use cases popular because it's one of the use cases that's easier to evaluate. So like when you, ask, yeah. J Code, you can evaluate it by functional correctness if web first, whether the code runs in second, how efficient it is. For example, if you ask Jerry a SQL query, you can see like how fast, how slow or memory it is. so I do think that's like, it's one reason that make coding extremely popular. You just evaluate it based on whether it generate the codes that does the things you want it to do and how efficient it is.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":34,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Absolutely. Vivienne, your take?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":35,"time":"36:00","seconds":2160,"speaker":"Vivienne Zhang","text":"Yeah. What I find very difficult in evaluating AI coding assistant is it's not often in the logic or syntax, even functional correctness or writing the functions to test it. I think it's what, where I see LLM often failing is that it does not even know that there are certain libraries that exist for it to architect a tool to do very complex things. Tasks and, you know, there are many standard APIs now for LMs to do all kinds of stuff like checking the weather or use WolframAlpha to find out, like some calculation tasks. For enterprises, I think a lot of the secret sauce, a lot of the value prop is often in their proprietary code basis. And you need to be able to give that knowledge to an LM system and application. And evaluating that takes a lot of effort for, the reasons we first started with, right? That the tasks is increasingly complex, and you need a subject matter expert, in many cases, a senior engineer to do code review, and that is very expensive and time consuming, and hopefully that can get easier going forward.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":36,"time":"37:00","seconds":2220,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"I can add my own anecdotes from our customers and various practitioners I've worked with, especially in terms of code. We've seen that iteration on the code is a not only something you have to constantly do, but it's a big pain to evaluate, what coding assistants get right is just general code, like give me a for loop that does X, Y, Z on an array. where it gets tricky is when there's contextual code. And you're trying to generate new pieces of code based on that context. There's often utter garbage that, that will be produced, because there's a very thin line between good code and utter garbage code which is different from natural language where, you know, you can express one sentence in 50 different ways that would mean the same thing. One piece of mistake in a code and it's garbage. So the line is very thin. That's where evaluation becomes more of an iterative challenge. Say if you missed out an import statement, Hey, can you add it back? And you know, you kind of go step by step and that's where, there's no, at least in my experience, not seen one particular metric just work out of the box. It's more, there's a lot of human in the loop and a lot of iterative sort of step by step getting to the right code for more complex code use cases.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":37,"time":"38:00","seconds":2280,"speaker":"Vivienne Zhang","text":"No, I think that makes a lot of sense. I think, uh, the, the word of contextual code as something, as I was mentioning, like libraries, existing knowledge of code basis, and that's very different.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":38,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"the other thing I wanted to ask about is, evals in the new agentic land and agentic workflows. So Chip, question for you is.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":39,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Agentic Systems","text":"Use Cases and Evaluations","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":40,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Essentially agents are designed to perform tasks and automate tasks, make decisions. Like what are some examples of agentic applications that you've seen or heard people building and what are those critical things to keep in mind from an evaluation standpoint when it comes to agents?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":41,"time":"39:00","seconds":2340,"speaker":"Chip Huyen","text":"Really excited about agentic tech use cases, we're very bullish on it. So the way we use agents is, we're actually using a lot of agents. So identify agents as actual components. Once you then have actual tools. So for example, like web search is a tool, calculator is a tool. It's a tool that a lot of us are already using, which is like a retriever. Like you have like, uh, so rack is actually, one type of like agentic, but easy for me of agentic is like more complex, like using code generator, like more, more complex workflow. and the second spec of that as I'm to use is planning. So, like, given a task and constraint and a set of tool, the agentic is supposed to come up with a way, like all plan. a strategy to solve this task. And so I would say this, because of my view on agents based on true components, I would probably evaluate. The agents based on that, for example, I would probably, like,if possible, of course, I think we would want to evaluate based on whether it can accomplish a task. Whether it's achievable within the constraints, for example, if you ask is hey, plan me a 2 week trips. There's a budget of like, 5, 000 is this. Able to manage it for 2 weeks and we can do budget. The other is whether it can call the right tool. So a lot of time, we'll try to call like an invalid tool. Or it will try to use the correct tool, but not with the right parameter. Because a lot of time, you know, the model has inferred, like, if it can call no functions for the weather, perhaps maybe has to extract the locations, the time. We had to extract that and whether it's valid, a lot of numbers say, like, uh, based on the, how efficient the plan, like the sequence of action is, if the sequence of action is very long, it might go on and on and on and never be able to, like, stop in the squeeze of time. whenever I try to evaluate some use case, I would probably try to break down, like, how is this application going to fail. It tries to put in a lot of evaluation metrics around the points of failures.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":42,"time":"41:00","seconds":2460,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Yeah, and I absolutely, I fully agree. And thanks for that detailed breakdown. you kind of covered, I think all aspects of an agentic system. Vivienne, on the topic of agents, I know there's like what Chip described is a fairly complex workflow. There's a lot of nuances and a lot of subjectivity to. Say, how do you even, you know, tool selection, whether it's right or wrong, parameters, whether they're right or wrong, do you, or have you foreseen number one, say the Nemo guardrails, like frameworks being used in agentic systems and in particular, have you seen any kind of, human in the loop story here with the agents?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":43,"time":"42:00","seconds":2520,"speaker":"Vivienne Zhang","text":"Yeah, I'm also very excited about agents and NVIDIA actually have released many blue agent blueprints because we believe that there are so many use cases that can benefit from. And specifically to your question of human in the loop, I think I'm going to give two examples. One we're very familiar with, and then one it's more visionary, but hopefully happening in the near future. So for the very familiar one, I think we've all interacted with a customer service chatbot. And you will keep handling your queries until it decides it can no longer deal with the complexity of the query. And then you will send the query to a human and that will be the human in the loop. And I think, you know, as simple as the sound to do it properly and correctly and give a good user experience it's not easy. And so I think Iterating and doing this eval on all the failure points as Chip was identifying is super important. And then to talk about what hopefully will be in the works in the future. I want to go back to the original definition of an agent. It is a person or a party who acts on behalf of another person or group. And I think the implied definition of relationship is that the goal is defined and identified by the human and the means are delegated to the agent. And I think that's a ideal human in the loop vision for me. So I will define all the goals and the parameters, like I want a trip in this way, and I want to find a new diet, optimize my schedule, and I want an agent to do all of that for me. And I'm actually seeing a lot of different, small agents or early agents been built in this traction and in this direction, and I would love to talk about this again next year.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":44,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"one question for you, Chip. There's some trends that we're seeing, on various fronts. the cost of intelligence is coming down. what, like a three digit billion parameter model could do today, a single digit billion parameter model can do, the cost of hosting these models is also sort of linearly decreasing. It's becoming easier to sort of deploy them. On prem, literally you can download like a Lama 3. 1 and host it on AWS. all these trends have emerged in 2024. given these downward trends, making it easier and easier to use a lot of open source models and host them on more commoditized GPUs, what are your thoughts on the trends going into 2025? And what are you most excited about?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":45,"time":"44:00","seconds":2640,"speaker":"Chip Huyen","text":"So, I'm definitely very excited about, like, open source, like, smaller models, I think there's a chain of, like, models. when we see this trend of, models, the same size of getting bigger, stronger and stronger. So, if you read first about the lab map papers, right? You can see that on my tree, like, even 70. Models is way, way better isn't like just like the 1st, but 10 times bigger, so I'm very excited. So you can see that we have very strong powerful small models at the same time Nvidia and also like a lot of competitors and incredible work in making very powerful chips. So, I hope Nvidia. Invest more into consumer chips. So I feel like I hope the same. Yeah. So I do think that's like, for people to be able to host model locally, we do need more powerful consumer hardware. but is that is a China, if NVS not doing it, I'm sure they're going to be like a lot of setups already doing it. So I do see just like a lot of on dev and like on prem to be very, very useful. Very interesting. I think this trend would be like pretty exciting. Like agentic tech use cases. I think it's like, Vivienne already mentioned some great use cases. Uh, I also see, like, for example, like sales, automated sales, automating, marketing, market research, coding, personal assistant. A lot of them are very, very, very fun. another trend, I think could be in a wider range of dictations and just, I think it may be agentic patterns, So, if you don't mention a few use cases of a human is a look. One thing I'm very excited about is it's like, agents, but like, instead of asking agentic to make the full strategy plan to sort them fast enough, like human domain experts to come up on a scaffold of like, how to solve the task. And then give them agents a tool. So like the agents just need to like follow the scaffold instead of like coming and put like the plan from A to Z by themselves. I mean, just basically super exciting right now.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":46,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Oh, totally. I couldn't agree more. maybe the same similar question for you, Vivienne, as we end this.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":47,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"so you're kind of in the eye of the storm, right? You're in the Gen AI teams at NVIDIA. Yeah. That's kind of the epicenter of a lot of this innovation. what do you see coming in 2025?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":48,"time":"46:00","seconds":2760,"speaker":"Vivienne Zhang","text":"first of all, I cannot promise the consumer grade GPU just requested, but I will relay this request for feature. but yeah, no, I think we totally see that we, we now have a category of product of a models now called MiniTron, like, you know, the little brothers or sisters of NemoTron. And yeah, the, the amount of work they can do is also just really astonishing. In terms of what I'm really excited about, I think one thing I will love to see more enterprises do is this hype of new. Versions of its application, just like how a lot of B2C chatbots have been doing. So we know that, you know, I think consumer grade chatbot like Perplexity, Gemini, GPT 4, like, we're all very excited whenever they have a new drop of the model. I think the same wraps of collecting user feedback, usage data, iterate, improve, evaluate. Release should also be applied for a lot of enterprise use cases. And I love to see Galileo partners say, Oh, we have a new application coming in and let's all be wild for its new performance compared to its former version. And I think we can keep climbing the hill.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":49,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Absolutely. I will certainly be doing that. amazing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":50,"time":null,"seconds":null,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"I mean, this has been a great session. I learned a lot from both you Chip, as well as you Vivienne. Thank you both for joining me Thank you. Thanks so much.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang","episode":5,"guid":"528ed8db-ba9c-4df2-87a7-d10a7f4b92ea","episodeTitle":"Practical Lessons for GenAI Evals | Chip Huyen & Vivienne Zhang","publishedAt":"2024-12-04","segmentIndex":51,"time":"48:00","seconds":2880,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"That's it for this week. Thank you so much for listening and make sure that you've subscribed to Chain of Thought wherever you get your podcasts. And if you enjoyed this episode, if you're finding the show valuable, please share it with a friend. We're trying to get the word out about the show and it means so much to us when we see our listeners sharing the podcast on social media or when we hear that someone came in and listened to us because they found it from a friend. Thanks so much for listening and we'll see you next week.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/5-practical-lessons-for-genai-evals-chip-huyen-and-vivienne-zhang/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture","episode":4,"guid":"5ea0fa52-6509-4c75-b17d-42489768db36","episodeTitle":"Why Most Enterprise AI Projects Fail to Show ROI | HP, ServiceNow & Accenture","publishedAt":"2024-11-27","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"welcome back to chain of thought. Everyone. I'm Conor Bronsdon, head of developer awareness for Galileo. And I'm here once again with Vikram Chatterji, our CEO and co founder. Vikram, great to see you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture","episode":4,"guid":"5ea0fa52-6509-4c75-b17d-42489768db36","episodeTitle":"Why Most Enterprise AI Projects Fail to Show ROI | HP, ServiceNow & Accenture","publishedAt":"2024-11-27","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Thanks, Conor. Great to see you again.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture","episode":4,"guid":"5ea0fa52-6509-4c75-b17d-42489768db36","episodeTitle":"Why Most Enterprise AI Projects Fail to Show ROI | HP, ServiceNow & Accenture","publishedAt":"2024-11-27","segmentIndex":2,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"uh, it was fun getting to spend some time last week with you in San Francisco, and really dive into what's happening at AI today as it continues to advance. So too does the conversation that we're having and other companies are having around ROI of AI. and you've talked about this before on this podcast, which is, you know, we need to move to some, Paradigm where, you want to get your dishwasher to actually be activated on its own. you want real ROI for people. and we've had other folks in the show talk before, like, Brian Raymond at unstructured talk about, the mom test of like, uh, Hey, like, I just want Siri to work, But for companies, you really need to be able to justify the spend when it comes to AI or else we're just going to be in this arms race that doesn't actually pay back. It's likely to be one of the biggest themes we see in 2025 around AI. I think you mentioned it in our predictions episode. and we heard from leaders at ServiceNow, HP and Accenture on their approach to, the ROI of AI at our Productionize 2. 0 event we're going to share some of those perspectives here in the second half of this conversation, but first Vikram, let's drill in on your thoughts about the ROI component of AI. what's your take on how leaders today should be thinking about the ROI of their AI programs and investments?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture","episode":4,"guid":"5ea0fa52-6509-4c75-b17d-42489768db36","episodeTitle":"Why Most Enterprise AI Projects Fail to Show ROI | HP, ServiceNow & Accenture","publishedAt":"2024-11-27","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:00","seconds":60,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Yeah, good topic to talk about, Conor. So I think of it in two ways. One is, sure, what should they be thinking about and how they should be thinking about it? But also, what are they thinking about right now? And where is their mental state today? Like, what and why is that the case? Galileo, we've been talking to a ton of enterprise customers, but also a lot of these leaders that are in different phases of bringing their AI applications to bear. Right. And as a part of that, what we've realized is, um, the, discussion and this topic around the ROI for AI. Which has become a little bit of a, a meme in the world of AI now around like, what is the ROI for AI? And, you're seeing ads for that from a lot of different players in the market. But all of this is happening because in my head, it's because of an adjustment to the actual value that AI can provide versus what the anticipated value was. And a lot of people overpaid for AI maybe even like eight to 10 months ago. And now they're just wondering like, Hey, is this actually going to pay off for me or not? So just to unpack that a little bit, the reason why they had to pay a lot for AI was because The model providers that were highest accuracy, like the open AIs of the world, the Anthropics of the world, were much more expensive about 8 to 10 months ago. Now you do have, lower cost alternatives. It's a lot of these open source models. A lot of our customers are fine tuning those models. A lot of them are not fine tuning and just using rag with smaller models. And so things have become cheaper. The cost of compute, the cost of these models are much cheaper now than before. but the investments were made for a lot of the enterprises at the beginning of the year. The budgets were allocated for this at the beginning of the year. So a lot of GPUs were bought, a lot of tools were bought, a lot of expensive consultants were brought in. And so if you think of it from that perspective, right, you're an executive at a large company and you're trying to build out these AI applications, your name is on the line. You've done, now you've basically spent maybe 50 million dollars on launching a couple of these AI applications, but then you're not seeing the result. And that's kind of what, if you magnify that across hundreds of enterprises that have done exactly the same thing, there's this trough of disillusionment that's kind of come in, which is the natural cycle of things, This ROI is just not there for this AI thing at all, which is why I find it to be very short sighted, but it's also because of what's happened over the course of the last eight to 10 months. what I keep talking to executives about and, and especially in the enterprise is, Great, like we've all learned that, you know, don't, don't spend your money without knowing exactly what the output is going to be. We've all also matured as an ecosystem in terms of seeing what works and what doesn't work. And so when you think of the ROI, for anything, including for AI, it all comes down to being really smart on the inputs and the outputs that you want. So if you go back to what the outputs should be, we can now be much smarter about what kinds of use cases can you actually use generative AI for, versus which ones you can't use generative AI for. So in the enterprise, we often hear about customers coming to us and saying that, look, we have 500 ideas across the enterprise for sales, for marketing, etc. where we can use generative AI. and we're going to be using it for a hundred of them. Instead, I feel like the smarter organizations kind of creating a rubric where they can just use generative AI for maybe four or five, which are higher ROI, which can really the needle, but also, are built where GenAI can actually help, right? So that's one, like figuring out those use cases really well based on maybe even the last 10 months of history is super helpful. how do you actually know that it's good enough to scale? Because a lot of the lack of ROI comes from this idea that, hey, this thing is not working. I put in all of this money and time, but it's just not working. in the enterprise. And the idea of it not working comes down a lot to the guardrails that he put in place. a lot of the, different kinds of, mechanisms for iterating faster that he put in place so that you can actually, be accurate, but it can also adhere to the different rules and laws of the land from a regulatory and compliance perspective. So those are the pieces that I'm seeing a lot of the more mature organizations do. And some of these organizations actually did this about 8 to 10 months ago when they started out. And those are the ones where we're seeing them being way ahead of the others. and so I think there needs to be a reframing net net of this idea for ROI for of AI. And I think we're still in the first innings of many. I don't think it's the question mark is not like, is this a useless, technology, but it's more about great. Now, how do we, How do we be better from here in order to actually generate more ROI?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture","episode":4,"guid":"5ea0fa52-6509-4c75-b17d-42489768db36","episodeTitle":"Why Most Enterprise AI Projects Fail to Show ROI | HP, ServiceNow & Accenture","publishedAt":"2024-11-27","segmentIndex":4,"time":"6:00","seconds":360,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Totally. And I know May Habib talked a bit about this in our first episode of Chain of Thought, about this idea that AI needs to be magic. And as you said recently on our 2025 predictions episode, a lot of companies were kind of sold AI as this magic solve for whatever their problem was. And the truth of the matter is it takes more work. the potential of AI is huge. It's huge.capacity of AI to address different use cases, as you pointed out, could be 500 different use cases at a company. Huge.But it still takes work to define your goals, to set guardrails, to evaluate, train, and observe the success of this, because it doesn't get you to 100 percent off the bat. You still have to put the work in, like you would of any normal software program.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture","episode":4,"guid":"5ea0fa52-6509-4c75-b17d-42489768db36","episodeTitle":"Why Most Enterprise AI Projects Fail to Show ROI | HP, ServiceNow & Accenture","publishedAt":"2024-11-27","segmentIndex":5,"time":"6:00","seconds":360,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"this reminds me of when the BERT model came out and everyone at Google was very excited about this when we talked to people outside of Google. we were hearing a lot of, you know, BERT is great. But then I asked her a question and it's giving me a shitty response. And that's because it needed work. It needed to be fine tuned on the highest quality data to make that actually work out. to get that magic value, which can be promised. It just takes a lot of work. And those were data scientists that were doing it versus now we're seeing a lot of software engineers that are leveraging AI. And I do think the other gap that we need to bridge is how do you work with these? larger language models. How do you build these compound AI systems? How can you tweak them, iterate them, bring in the right guardrails to actually make sure that you can, squeeze out that magic value, which is latent in it. and then bring it to the other side. And that's to some extent, it's the. think Craig Wiley had said this on the last productionize that we've done. I really liked that statement where he said, it's the science and data science that needs to be brought out. And people have to understand that and software engineers have to kind of learn that in order for us to all really harness the true power of generative AI.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture","episode":4,"guid":"5ea0fa52-6509-4c75-b17d-42489768db36","episodeTitle":"Why Most Enterprise AI Projects Fail to Show ROI | HP, ServiceNow & Accenture","publishedAt":"2024-11-27","segmentIndex":6,"time":"8:00","seconds":480,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"well said. And I know one of the things that a lot of software engineering leaders are thinking about today is finding that right use case because parts of their business have gone down this track already and installed, or maybe they've been more hesitant. How would you advise them to think through? identifying the right use case and those first steps to successful, building out of that use case.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture","episode":4,"guid":"5ea0fa52-6509-4c75-b17d-42489768db36","episodeTitle":"Why Most Enterprise AI Projects Fail to Show ROI | HP, ServiceNow & Accenture","publishedAt":"2024-11-27","segmentIndex":7,"time":"8:00","seconds":480,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Well, yeah, I mean, that for the use case identification for AI and ML in general, that's actually, in my opinion, not changed a lot for the last, decade. It's been three things. One is, uh,are you using humans a lot for this problem right now? Number one. Number two, is it super repeatable or are there way too many edge cases? And number three is uh, that are, let's say, looking at, uh, documents for mortgage lending, right? That's something which maybe can, you can use AI for, but the maybe question can be answered based on, is it a repeatable task? Are these humans looking can be answered based on, is it a repeat? Basically it's doing the same thing where they're like, has wine spilled all over it. Like They're doing all these things where they're just listing down these 10 or 15 different kinds of items. Where honestly a lot of the labeling companies made a lot of their money because they're just throwing humans at very bespoke specific questions and those humans have to answer those questions. So whenever you see those two pieces come in, it's ripe for generative AI or AI in general to be used a lot, which is why you're looking at low level code generation. there's some code generation by developers, which is almost like art, right? And we're not talking about that code gen for the most part. When you think code gen, it's like not an application that's being built out from the ground up. It's actually the mundane parts of that. The same is true for conversational AI. The same is true for contact center AI and summarizations and copy creation, et cetera. But the third one is high If you're automating the contact center, that's huge ROI for the business from an operations cost perspective. So those three, I feel like have really not changed for when you're thinking about the use case. That's when it gets into, how do you take those humans in the loop and move them from being the first line of defense to becoming more of the second line of defense where let AI. take up the bulk of the work, but then they become more of the subject matter experts and the quality checkers in the loop to make sure that there are no edge cases that are just seeping through the weeds.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture","episode":4,"guid":"5ea0fa52-6509-4c75-b17d-42489768db36","episodeTitle":"Why Most Enterprise AI Projects Fail to Show ROI | HP, ServiceNow & Accenture","publishedAt":"2024-11-27","segmentIndex":8,"time":"10:00","seconds":600,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And we'll hear more about this topic from Alex at HP and Jay from Accenture later in this episode. and another thing they really emphasize is the importance of that trust and explainability piece, something that we talk a lot about here at Galileo when it comes to enterprise AI, What's your thoughts on how leaders should be thinking through? explainability and trust pieces of AI as they start to execute on these applications.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture","episode":4,"guid":"5ea0fa52-6509-4c75-b17d-42489768db36","episodeTitle":"Why Most Enterprise AI Projects Fail to Show ROI | HP, ServiceNow & Accenture","publishedAt":"2024-11-27","segmentIndex":9,"time":"10:00","seconds":600,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"think when it comes to explainability of AI, I think number one, it's going to be a bit uncomfortable for a lot of engineering leaders to come to terms with this because it's there is it is a little bit of a black box. It's not simple if else statements that you're stringing together, which lends itself to a very deterministic software based solution. It's much more non deterministic than that. but if you can set the right kind of, bedrock and guardrails in place, things can help. Typically, what you've seen is there are four core components to making sure that you're, putting yourself up in the right way. The first one is, uh,Just having deep logging of your systems. What that means is just making sure that your developers, as they are building other systems, are logging everything. And are doing that in a way such that they can actually track every step of the way as the model is making this decision. As an example, if you're building a RAG based application, then making sure that you know what chunks were retrieved from the retriever? what the quality of those chunks are what the content is, what the exact response was like every step of the way got to know exactly what happened That's number one Number two is once you have that deep logging like figuring out what are those right guardrails and metrics and tests and assertions that you want to make in place for your specific use case and Generating that and building that out from the ground up is very important and also taking testing that out to make sure that those are high quality. Now to test those out, the third thing is you need test sets and data sets, and those need to be very high quality as well. That's classic machine learning. You need at least a set of queries, which are representative of your system, but you also need the ground truth, which is the right highest quality responses for those queries in place. And this is an, you know, an evergreen part of the ML system where you've got to make sure constantly that those metrics are of high quality, that the test set is of high quality, even once you've productionized your application. So the fourth one though, is human in the loop. these neural network based applications you always, they're always going to be edge cases. So, you always need there to be some subject matter experts in the loop, on the offline and the online side. And it's only when you get these four things together, the logging, the metrics, the test set and the humans in the loop in a really cohesive workflow, that's when you can actually sleep at night knowing that, hey, this is trustworthy and I actually know that this thing is gonna work out on the other side. And if it doesn't, then I actually have the answers because I've, tested it. set all these different shields in place for me to understand exactly what happened.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture","episode":4,"guid":"5ea0fa52-6509-4c75-b17d-42489768db36","episodeTitle":"Why Most Enterprise AI Projects Fail to Show ROI | HP, ServiceNow & Accenture","publishedAt":"2024-11-27","segmentIndex":10,"time":"13:00","seconds":780,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"How can AI builders effectively communicate the complexity of these aspects and what they need to stakeholders who may expect this immediate magic?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture","episode":4,"guid":"5ea0fa52-6509-4c75-b17d-42489768db36","episodeTitle":"Why Most Enterprise AI Projects Fail to Show ROI | HP, ServiceNow & Accenture","publishedAt":"2024-11-27","segmentIndex":11,"time":"13:00","seconds":780,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"there's two parts to this. It depends on who the stakeholders are. we've seen a lot of the enterprises build a lot of internal facing applications, right? Where maybe the, barrier to being considered or barrier to brand harm is actually much higher, because they're just analysts at a bank, but now there are 20, 000 analysts at a bank. So the ROI is high, but at the same time, the level of forgiveness is also high. You know, you can set some expectations through an email, but when it gets to, external facing applications, like we have, a lot of early stage companies building out really innovative AI based applications, and then putting this out there for, you know, marketers to build high quality copy for, insurance providers to be able to process a claim faster. It's all of these incredible use cases where. the, AI application starts to, just give out responses, which are not really high quality, there can be huge harm for that particular application. but that's where I feel like a big part of this comes down to the offline systems, like before you actually put something out there and if drawing what the boundaries are of what that particular application can and cannot do, and not just necessarily educating the, final stakeholder about this, because it's not the user that has to be trained on what the application should be doing, but training the application to not go beyond what it's supposed to do. You know, as an example, if you have a chat bot for your website, to answer any question about your product, if somebody comes in and asks about, I don't know, what's the meaning of life, it shouldn't necessarily say it's already do or read this book. it should just say like, I'm sorry, I'm not supposed to help you with that information. I'm just supposed to help you with this specific information about this specific website. so it's a little bit like teaching the application to be, you know, within realm of what it's supposed to do. so, which is why I always try to flip it on folks who, think about how should I educate my user to know what to ask. It's actually not on the user at all. They're just, they're just gonna go wild with their questions.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture","episode":4,"guid":"5ea0fa52-6509-4c75-b17d-42489768db36","episodeTitle":"Why Most Enterprise AI Projects Fail to Show ROI | HP, ServiceNow & Accenture","publishedAt":"2024-11-27","segmentIndex":12,"time":"15:00","seconds":900,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I think this kind of speaks to the practical need to not only have this systemic approach to operationalizing AI and applying it to whatever your desired use cases are, but also on the challenge of measuring that ROI we've been talking about, how can companies, you know, Kind of showcase, not just numbers to say, Hey, this is working or hey, that's delivering value, but also assess efficiency gains and other more intangible benefits.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture","episode":4,"guid":"5ea0fa52-6509-4c75-b17d-42489768db36","episodeTitle":"Why Most Enterprise AI Projects Fail to Show ROI | HP, ServiceNow & Accenture","publishedAt":"2024-11-27","segmentIndex":13,"time":"15:00","seconds":900,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"that's a good question about the ROI piece because, um,in general, I feel like a lot of the, People that are jaded by generative AI, they're looking for a very specific, metric that they can point to. And so you're like, look, this is what is, this is what it's helped with. that's where I've seen like, it, it's not necessarily materializing the form of, um, revenue or profitability, which I've seen a lot of people chasing when it comes to generative AI, but I don't think that's where that's where it really shines. If you look at most machine learning use cases, we rarely have that, has that actually led to like, here's a net new business that you've built out using ML. so on the one hand in the enterprise, we're not seeing net new businesses being created based on ML, which makes sense because an enterprise, a massive organization, which is like, if you look at a bank, it's got, it's like 30 different organizations within itself, but they're all. for financial services. And so you won't have a net new AI powered bank being built out. So it's not supposed to generate revenue or profitability. However, if it's geared towards cost savings and operational efficiency, that's where machine learning and AI thrives. It's for places where there's a lot of human in the loop, where there's some human work that's necessary that can be done away with. With BERT style models, which we built at Google, there were much lower level human in the loop tasks. Now it's slightly higher level humans and human in the loop tasks. And now with GPT 4, and models like that, like it's gone. with slightly higher in terms of the kind of human in the loop tasks that it can take on. But those tasks are, if you automate them, that's meant to improve operational efficiencies, right? While on the other hand, you have these startups like Harway and there are so many others across, legal and, healthcare, et cetera, where literally all their millions of dollars in revenue are because of AI. So they're not going to be the ones complaining about the ROI of AI, but the enterprises are. And that's where I feel like the main coaching would be, you got to count over the course of six to eight months around what was the cost of human capital that you were putting in for this specific workflow? How much time were they actually taking to do a certain task? And now how much time is that taking? And, um, How many humans in the loop do you actually need? And that's how you can calculate, the ROI to some extent. That's what we're doing with our enterprise customers too.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture","episode":4,"guid":"5ea0fa52-6509-4c75-b17d-42489768db36","episodeTitle":"Why Most Enterprise AI Projects Fail to Show ROI | HP, ServiceNow & Accenture","publishedAt":"2024-11-27","segmentIndex":14,"time":"18:00","seconds":1080,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I feel like it's often the More digitally native enterprises that are actually identifying that ROI because they're used to having to kind of extrapolate, and say, Oh, well, look, look at this efficiency gain. I can reach through this new innovative technology versus here's this direct. We sold more business units this quarter. they're saying, Hey, I just saved a lot of developer hours that now can be put towards innovative work. or I can limit my hiring in this area for a while because we've eliminated this, low level task.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture","episode":4,"guid":"5ea0fa52-6509-4c75-b17d-42489768db36","episodeTitle":"Why Most Enterprise AI Projects Fail to Show ROI | HP, ServiceNow & Accenture","publishedAt":"2024-11-27","segmentIndex":15,"time":"18:00","seconds":1080,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"No, exactly right. and that's why I think we all have to exercise some patience, but also be very smart about the investments that we make with generative AI. I'm personally very excited about the trough of disillusionment that we've all reached because, uh, I feel like when we were on the other side, everything and anything was possible, which is nice. But at the same time, it was for, folks who've been in the world of AI for a long time, a lot of the use cases that were coming out of the enterprise where. They would even come to Galileo this particular application. We'd kind of tell them that, you know, like this is not a great application for generative AI. And they realized that over time, but now we're seeing a lot of the folks coming in as being much more mature in terms of their needs and asks and what it can and cannot do. So that's typically what happens when you get like a whiplash in terms of like, hey, I invested a bunch of money and it didn't work out, but you get a lot of learnings as, as a result of that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture","episode":4,"guid":"5ea0fa52-6509-4c75-b17d-42489768db36","episodeTitle":"Why Most Enterprise AI Projects Fail to Show ROI | HP, ServiceNow & Accenture","publishedAt":"2024-11-27","segmentIndex":16,"time":"19:00","seconds":1140,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Fantastic, Vikram. I really appreciate you taking the time to talk through this with me as we head into our panel with some incredible guests. Do you have any last words for the audience to consider as they think about their decision making with AI applications and finding ROI from AI?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture","episode":4,"guid":"5ea0fa52-6509-4c75-b17d-42489768db36","episodeTitle":"Why Most Enterprise AI Projects Fail to Show ROI | HP, ServiceNow & Accenture","publishedAt":"2024-11-27","segmentIndex":17,"time":"19:00","seconds":1140,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"the last word would just be that, it's a very exciting time to be alive. In general, I feel like when people have to understand that that it's a very powerful technology to harness. And because it's powerful, you can harness it in just the right way for the right kind of use cases. So if you're a technology leader at an enterprise and thinking about the ROI, I would say starting from the basics and first principles around, like, what are those use cases that are repeatable where a lot of your, team and especially human capitalists going into that. It's repeatable. Those are probably good use cases for you to start working with. and the second part is keep an eye out on what's coming in the future and make sure that you have the bedrock in place, including the talent, the right kind of talent and the team can go a very long way. And there's a big talent gap right now in the market, which is also causing this, feeling of being jaded from where we are today.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture","episode":4,"guid":"5ea0fa52-6509-4c75-b17d-42489768db36","episodeTitle":"Why Most Enterprise AI Projects Fail to Show ROI | HP, ServiceNow & Accenture","publishedAt":"2024-11-27","segmentIndex":18,"time":"20:00","seconds":1200,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Vikram, thank you so much. Listeners. Stay tuned. After the break, you'll hear from our all star panel. And while I've got you here, if you haven't checked out our YouTube channel already, please give it a visit. Maybe after the show ends or Hit pause and do it right now. We post all of our episodes here. You can watch this interview and you can also see unique outtakes and our favorite moments from each episode. They all make it to our YouTube at Run Galileo. Give it a like and subscribe. That way you never miss an episode. Next up, we've got our enterprise AI panel from productionize 2. 0. You'll hear from Alex Klug, head of product data science and AI at HP, Sri Ram Palapudi, senior director of ML platform engineering at ServiceNow, and Jay Subrahmonia, global MD for AI research and products at Accenture, alongside Yash Sheth, co founder and CEO of Galileo as our moderator.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture","episode":4,"guid":"5ea0fa52-6509-4c75-b17d-42489768db36","episodeTitle":"Why Most Enterprise AI Projects Fail to Show ROI | HP, ServiceNow & Accenture","publishedAt":"2024-11-27","segmentIndex":19,"time":"21:00","seconds":1260,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Nice to see you all.and thanks for joining us at Productionize today. how do we maximize the ROI of generative AI in,the enterprise today, so to start the discussion with you, Alex, you're looking at. You know, trust and trustworthy development and avoiding, you know, the reputation risk in the enterprise. Uh,how is HP thinking about this?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture","episode":4,"guid":"5ea0fa52-6509-4c75-b17d-42489768db36","episodeTitle":"Why Most Enterprise AI Projects Fail to Show ROI | HP, ServiceNow & Accenture","publishedAt":"2024-11-27","segmentIndex":20,"time":"21:00","seconds":1260,"speaker":"Alex Klug","text":"I mean, trust is so important to HP. We have a great, brand that's been around for a long time and, it's super valuable to us. So especially as we look at gen AI internally, it's critical that as we're deploying it, We're deploying solutions that we know are going to, add value to our brand and not have negative impacts. Like the worst thing that can happen is we are in the news about having deployed a solution that has steered our customers wrong or delivered a bad experience. And in fact, our CDO often tells to me, you know, you guys are building rocket ships. I want a bracking system. And that's the mentality of a lot of our customers as well, is that we're always trying to move fast. The space is moving really fast, but what are the controls in place to ensure that you're delivering a good experience, that you have that accuracy and trust in the models and applications that you're developing? and that's where we see, the partnership Galileo is being hugely critical because you get that trust by having explainability and visibility in the work. Is happening as may described. It can't just be a magic box where you ask it something and then some magical answer comes out. you have to have an understanding of where that answer is coming from, and be able to protect against when there's a bad response potentially, or we don't have confidence that answer. and so that's critical. And that's been a big gap in what I would say. has been preventing HP from deploying AI, a lot of our customers from deploying AI and just generally we're seeing in the market, preventing a lot of CIOs signing off and saying, Hey, I'm ready to adopt this across my organization outside of the one or two pilot use cases that maybe they've done so far today.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture","episode":4,"guid":"5ea0fa52-6509-4c75-b17d-42489768db36","episodeTitle":"Why Most Enterprise AI Projects Fail to Show ROI | HP, ServiceNow & Accenture","publishedAt":"2024-11-27","segmentIndex":21,"time":"23:00","seconds":1380,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Amazing. Yeah. And, Continuing that thought, Jay, at Accenture, you know,we talked earlier as well, how Accenture is, supporting thousands of use cases, globally, when we look at it from the other side of, like, applying this technology in the enterprise. you know, what's an effective strategy and what are some of the things that, teams should be thinking about early in order to get, to success with their applications and production.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture","episode":4,"guid":"5ea0fa52-6509-4c75-b17d-42489768db36","episodeTitle":"Why Most Enterprise AI Projects Fail to Show ROI | HP, ServiceNow & Accenture","publishedAt":"2024-11-27","segmentIndex":22,"time":"23:00","seconds":1380,"speaker":"Jay Subrahmonia","text":"One is, you know, last year was a year of doing a lot of POCs and pilots, and this year definitely is about promoting a lot of them into production. And that's where a lot of the issues around trust and, concerns around brand, et cetera, are front and center. so we are definitely sort of helping our clients. you know, take that journey towards operationalizing that principles and doing so with a very systemic and technology led approach, because this cannot be done in a more ad hoc manner. So, it needs a more systemic approach to doing so. And this is where sometimes our own journey internally comes as a good credential and to help. Sort of done this. And in 2016, as the EOI act was just being formed, you know, we, grounded in our core values and code of ethics. Our responsible AI journey was, established and it's a large sort of CEO sponsored compliance program that has scaled over 70 to thousand people. And in a nutshell, you know, we started with our governance and principles, but, you know, really mapping that into an AI risk assessment. We all hear about how regulations take a very risk based approach to looking at different use cases and then bringing in a very technology led program with systemic testing and monitoring and compliance are all key sort of foundational, elements. Why does this seem so complex and difficult? It's because the compliance rules and enforcements are still in their infancy. They're also rapidly evolving, you know, technology and vulnerabilities and broad scope and, you know, high volume of use cases that we're dealing with. And this is why sort of, you need. a cross functional team absolutely has to come together across compliance, business and development and take a very step by step journey, towards actually going through this, this entire process. And this is where Accenture, like, companies are helping our clients sort of take that journey, from, establishing their principles to actually putting them into full operations.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture","episode":4,"guid":"5ea0fa52-6509-4c75-b17d-42489768db36","episodeTitle":"Why Most Enterprise AI Projects Fail to Show ROI | HP, ServiceNow & Accenture","publishedAt":"2024-11-27","segmentIndex":23,"time":"25:00","seconds":1500,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Amazing. Yeah. Andand, Sriram, welcome to productionize. And I think we're going from, you know, HP, being, you know, the technology provider, Accenture, We'll see you later. Bye Bye you know, actually helping enterprises implement this and service now, now actually, implementing a lot of generative AI solutions internally, you know, independently as well. from your perspective, what are some of the, trade offs, that you have to make to kind of prioritize some of the GenAI applications, and the ROI that we get from that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture","episode":4,"guid":"5ea0fa52-6509-4c75-b17d-42489768db36","episodeTitle":"Why Most Enterprise AI Projects Fail to Show ROI | HP, ServiceNow & Accenture","publishedAt":"2024-11-27","segmentIndex":24,"time":"26:00","seconds":1560,"speaker":"Sriram Palapudi","text":"Hey, nice to be here. Thank you for that. ServiceNow, it's a very, very, broad platform. We have thousands of customers, like lots of other enterprise companies. And so with that, we do have to do a lot of trade offs. We are not at a place today, where we can have for each of our customers for each of their use cases separate models, right? So we have to look at what we can do to optimize across a different set of customers, what kind of models we have. the end of the day, the infrastructure is also not like, you know, that there is limited infrastructure. So we have to look at the number of models we trade off on the number of models. We trade off on the sizes of those models. We try to bring together different use cases across the broad set of workflows we have and try to optimize. And that's where all our trade offs happen. We trade off on the size of the models. And then we obviously have to think about quality, right? So we try to bring all that together, keeping the third dimension of all the infrastructure. So that's the area up. Where all our trade offs happen, that's where we are trying to optimize and we are trying to make sure we get the best value for our customer.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture","episode":4,"guid":"5ea0fa52-6509-4c75-b17d-42489768db36","episodeTitle":"Why Most Enterprise AI Projects Fail to Show ROI | HP, ServiceNow & Accenture","publishedAt":"2024-11-27","segmentIndex":25,"time":"27:00","seconds":1620,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"does that involve a lot of, customer back and forth? Like, you know, when you're trying to prioritize certain features, do you have customer advisory boards, uh, that you get data from on what's higher.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture","episode":4,"guid":"5ea0fa52-6509-4c75-b17d-42489768db36","episodeTitle":"Why Most Enterprise AI Projects Fail to Show ROI | HP, ServiceNow & Accenture","publishedAt":"2024-11-27","segmentIndex":26,"time":"27:00","seconds":1620,"speaker":"Sriram Palapudi","text":"So we do have a lot of different use cases and obviously ServiceNow is a product that supports, uh, So we have a lot of priorities that are coming to us from our customers, whether it's requester assist, as in the users of our customers trying to do stuff for themselves or our agents trying to. So, and then we also have a huge developer community. We have a lot of people who develop solutions for customers. So there is a myriad of use cases that we have. And we try to prioritize based on where we think the customer will derive the highest value at this point. So that's where there's a lot of back and forth with customers. We have a lot of our internal product and outbound product managers who talk to customers. And we kind of prioritize based on where we think the maximum value for the customer will be.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture","episode":4,"guid":"5ea0fa52-6509-4c75-b17d-42489768db36","episodeTitle":"Why Most Enterprise AI Projects Fail to Show ROI | HP, ServiceNow & Accenture","publishedAt":"2024-11-27","segmentIndex":27,"time":"28:00","seconds":1680,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Amazing. And speaking of value, J at Accenture, I'd love to see. How Accenture thinks of measuring the ROI or the value of a generative AI application when you, pitch and deliver, that value to the enterprise in terms of the cost it would take, also, you know, the, the end ROI, for that application.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture","episode":4,"guid":"5ea0fa52-6509-4c75-b17d-42489768db36","episodeTitle":"Why Most Enterprise AI Projects Fail to Show ROI | HP, ServiceNow & Accenture","publishedAt":"2024-11-27","segmentIndex":28,"time":"28:00","seconds":1680,"speaker":"Jay Subrahmonia","text":"Absolutely. And I think, you know, when we look at the journey towards using AI based transformation, it's always starting with lead with value and then, enable with all the responsible AI guardrails. So, we, go very deep into an industry focal. So for example, we are seeing a lot of, uptake with the regulated industries. And I think we heard that earlier as well, things like banking and insurance and, you know, life sciences Partly because, you know, they know how to deal with, regulations really well and, you don't know how to sort of look at transformation with that. and then, you know, cross function looking at things like marketing, as a function that allows you to really target, customers at a much, much more personalized level. But, you take an industry like insurance underwriting, last thing you would think about, from a AI based transformation, but You know, huge, a value that they are seeing in terms of how this is going to help them. And we see over 4 to 5 percent improvement in the ability to predict, risk across different, customers and partly powered by. Traditional and generative AI, systems. For example, you, you know, underwriters have to read a ton of documents, property documents and, all kinds of financial statements and environmental reports. Great application of using gen AI and LLMs to be able to do that. Today they are only able to read things at a great level of detail, probably to about 25 to 30 percent, and here it just expands that scope. The second is to be able to predict at a very individual level what there is. Profile should be again, use of potentially traditional models to be able to do it. as these are coming together, high risk, because they have an impact on the individuals or an enterprise's, risk level, and so it needs to be implemented and deployed with the right set of testing and guardrails so that, you know, things like accuracy and hallucinations and bias and all of this are sort of treated appropriately.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture","episode":4,"guid":"5ea0fa52-6509-4c75-b17d-42489768db36","episodeTitle":"Why Most Enterprise AI Projects Fail to Show ROI | HP, ServiceNow & Accenture","publishedAt":"2024-11-27","segmentIndex":29,"time":"30:00","seconds":1800,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"personally also, I can resonate this a lot because just I was with a customer yesterday and, we were doing a value exercise, one of the things, that came up at the C suite level is like, we can only realize the value that we calculate, let's say if it's productivity gains or it's new customer revenue, if the behavior of the system. Is as expected. And so investing in the responsible AI efforts, having good governance, but also having good guardrails, uh, that you can, define becomes very important. Sriram, Alex, anything to add on this topic? I know, Sriram, you covered a little bit of the customer. value creation perspective as well. And on the measurement side and Alex, from your perspective as well.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture","episode":4,"guid":"5ea0fa52-6509-4c75-b17d-42489768db36","episodeTitle":"Why Most Enterprise AI Projects Fail to Show ROI | HP, ServiceNow & Accenture","publishedAt":"2024-11-27","segmentIndex":30,"time":"31:00","seconds":1860,"speaker":"Panelist","text":"Yeah. I mean, definitely. I think from an ROI standpoint, it's. Increasingly more important because so many companies have invested so much. And as we mentioned, I think we raised the, you know, the question earlier about how many companies are seeing that ROI, be able to understand not only, how you are getting to that ROI, what's the effort it takes. Because I think everyone assumes that gen AI or AI in general is some magic bullet that can solve all problems and deliver returns, but don't think about the cost of getting there. But then number two, how do you measure that? And especially how do you measure that in a world that's completely new. It's like a new systems. and then number three, like so many of our customers today, like, because of gen AI and the changes that this has done just at a macro level and expectations that that is all part of your strategy, I mean, we expect that everyone kind of knows what's the latest and greatest, but so many companies. They hadn't done AI up to this point and now they're expected to have this comprehensive strategy that's going to redefine their business, where they're just trying to get their foot in the door and what to do and take it very incrementally. So it's been a challenge for sure.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture","episode":4,"guid":"5ea0fa52-6509-4c75-b17d-42489768db36","episodeTitle":"Why Most Enterprise AI Projects Fail to Show ROI | HP, ServiceNow & Accenture","publishedAt":"2024-11-27","segmentIndex":31,"time":"32:00","seconds":1920,"speaker":"Sriram Palapudi","text":"for us, I mean, at the end of the day, we are trying to So we are trying to measure the success of AI for our customers. And the best way we figured out for ourselves is to use data for that, right? So we, like I said, humans are using our stuff. So we are trying to see how much of deflection we cost. I mean, how many tickets were created in the case of ITSM. We have lots of other use cases, but we use measures like. How many people actually derive benefit of it? How many people could actually solve their problems on their own? I mean, this is what customers are wanting from us, right? So that's one very obvious way for us to measure success and ROI on AI. There are lots of other somewhat intangible benefits as well. I mean, you know, Jay was talking about underwriters looking a lot of content. We have the same problem. Tickets can become very big. And it can become a very big cognitive burden on people to look at all that stuff. I mean, it, you know, ticket after ticket after ticket, it can actually dull you down. So a lot of some of our capabilities like summarization and all that help bring all that a little down. So there's a lot of. time savings, which is obviously measurable, but then the cognitive burden on the person is also another value. So these are all the different things that we use to measure return on AI investments by our customers.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture","episode":4,"guid":"5ea0fa52-6509-4c75-b17d-42489768db36","episodeTitle":"Why Most Enterprise AI Projects Fail to Show ROI | HP, ServiceNow & Accenture","publishedAt":"2024-11-27","segmentIndex":32,"time":"33:00","seconds":1980,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Jay, I guess a popular question from the listeners as well, and as a relevant topic as well is like, Sharing some stats about POCs and applications in production as well as, I think when we, talked earlier, you had an interesting stat about CEOs, that I'm sure everyone here would love to hear from.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture","episode":4,"guid":"5ea0fa52-6509-4c75-b17d-42489768db36","episodeTitle":"Why Most Enterprise AI Projects Fail to Show ROI | HP, ServiceNow & Accenture","publishedAt":"2024-11-27","segmentIndex":33,"time":"33:00","seconds":1980,"speaker":"Jay Subrahmonia","text":"so when we talk to CEOs, you know, first and foremost, across the world, you know, you ask them, do you have your responsibility principles documented? And usually you have a very resounding yes, you know, over 95%. But then when you ask them, have they put Operationalize this, you know, that number sort of dropped significantly and, you know, well below 10%. and that's why sort of, we start with benchmarking our clients in terms of where they are. We've come up with this sort of stage 1 through stage 4, based on our some partnership with Stanford in terms of posture versus fully pioneer posture is where there is. Some level of basic infrastructure in place, some awareness to all the way to fully operationalizing. So that's point number one. We also hear stats that say, you know, while there are a lot of POC that have been done only less than 10 percent have actually been put into production and partly, you know, It's because of not having the right sort of governance and the, testing and the monitoring in place to be able to make that shift. And so that is why I think we all here are here to not just help our clients build these use cases, but also help them. with that transition. Also at Accenture, we work with a lot of global companies and the regulations are just, growing and so being able and, and evolving. So how do you sort of keep track of those is also, a non trivial task for people.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture","episode":4,"guid":"5ea0fa52-6509-4c75-b17d-42489768db36","episodeTitle":"Why Most Enterprise AI Projects Fail to Show ROI | HP, ServiceNow & Accenture","publishedAt":"2024-11-27","segmentIndex":34,"time":"35:00","seconds":2100,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Yeah. And, you know, earlier we were talking, with Greg from Databricks about, expectations, you know, at, from, from leadership and given, you know, how our POCs are very exciting, the use cases are transformational, we want to see them in production very quickly. Sometimes we feel like, Oh, you know, the POC is working so well, but actually productionizing it. You know, we've expected to, uh, launch in like three months or six months, but, you know, the reality is not right. Like I've heard that the reality is a lot long. It takes a lot longer and would love to, you know, get an absolutely.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture","episode":4,"guid":"5ea0fa52-6509-4c75-b17d-42489768db36","episodeTitle":"Why Most Enterprise AI Projects Fail to Show ROI | HP, ServiceNow & Accenture","publishedAt":"2024-11-27","segmentIndex":35,"time":"35:00","seconds":2100,"speaker":"Jay Subrahmonia","text":"And also this is where the risk based framework really helps, You know, there are, some that are very high risk, but there are, much lower risk that can definitely go through. So not being a bottleneck, but every use case has to go through an elaborate sort of check before it even sees some light of the day is also, an issue. So taking a very risk based approach really helps a great deal.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture","episode":4,"guid":"5ea0fa52-6509-4c75-b17d-42489768db36","episodeTitle":"Why Most Enterprise AI Projects Fail to Show ROI | HP, ServiceNow & Accenture","publishedAt":"2024-11-27","segmentIndex":36,"time":"36:00","seconds":2160,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"And, uh, you know, lastly, I think, one thing that I'd love to end with is the trend I'm seeing from all three of y'all is that, responsible AI safety guardrails, trustworthiness is important. You know, otherwise we can't generate the value that we are hoping for. Is there a framework or are there some best practices that. Do you all have seen work that we can actually help our listeners to, uh, to adapt towards and learnings from each 1 of you would be great.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture","episode":4,"guid":"5ea0fa52-6509-4c75-b17d-42489768db36","episodeTitle":"Why Most Enterprise AI Projects Fail to Show ROI | HP, ServiceNow & Accenture","publishedAt":"2024-11-27","segmentIndex":37,"time":"36:00","seconds":2160,"speaker":"Sriram Palapudi","text":"we realized here is that we need to have kind of process where there are people making sure we are doing the right thing and we seek the right approval. So we have a lot of controls in place. We have dedicated teams that engage with every team that works on AI and Gen AI in particular here. What kind of data sets we are using, how are we building our models? Are we able to. Take out data sets, which kind of have an issue. You see, we are a SaaS platform. We have access to a lot of customer data. but there are very, very strict controls on what we can do and what we cannot do. And there is a fully and well defined process. So I think at the end of the day, it's very, very important to define your process and make sure that everybody who's working on it is aware of that process. You know, having something, but people not being aware. of it. So we drill into our teams, the importance of what data you use and what are the consequences of using something like that. And we have a lot of checkpoints in the middle. We have lots of people who can kind of know what's going on and with whom you have to seek approval before you do anything, whether it is open source data, whether it is internal data. And we have processes to talk to our customers. We have contracts with our customers for them to sign. to allow us to use the data for specific things, whether it's evaluation, whether it's training. So it's all very process driven. And we have a full team dedicated for that. I mean, whether you're a small company or a big company, having that process and having people dedicated to prevent you from causing any issues, I think is key.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture","episode":4,"guid":"5ea0fa52-6509-4c75-b17d-42489768db36","episodeTitle":"Why Most Enterprise AI Projects Fail to Show ROI | HP, ServiceNow & Accenture","publishedAt":"2024-11-27","segmentIndex":38,"time":"38:00","seconds":2280,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Alex, you want to go?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture","episode":4,"guid":"5ea0fa52-6509-4c75-b17d-42489768db36","episodeTitle":"Why Most Enterprise AI Projects Fail to Show ROI | HP, ServiceNow & Accenture","publishedAt":"2024-11-27","segmentIndex":39,"time":"38:00","seconds":2280,"speaker":"Alex Klug","text":"I'd echo exactly what Saurabh said, but then also add like understanding what that outcome is that you're trying to get. Is really critical in how you're going to get there, mapping that out into your process. I know, like looking at the comments around ROI, people brought some great points. Like ROI isn't necessarily always just financially driven, right? There's a lot of like intangible ROIs that are a lot harder to measure, but you can, by understanding what that objective and that processes develop the KPIs to do it. You know, it's a great example from our team developing software solutions is like, how are we using AI? To accelerate the velocity of developing like new features where maybe that feature has some positive financial return down the line, because it's going to drive higher adoption or higher attention into our product. But in the short term, it's around like, how is the team refocusing on like the more important decisions? Removing that cognitive load as people were talking about, much trickier to do, but when you're structuring that way, you have to understand that from the get go, like, what's that objective? How am I building my process? And how is that level of trust and support needed to get there? Um, because I, I, at the same time too, like, depending on what your use cases, that level of trust that you need also varies very drastically. So like our financial customers, super high level of trust needed some of the more creative marketing approaches. maybe, maybe lower levels of trust, depending on, you know, what those use cases are.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture","episode":4,"guid":"5ea0fa52-6509-4c75-b17d-42489768db36","episodeTitle":"Why Most Enterprise AI Projects Fail to Show ROI | HP, ServiceNow & Accenture","publishedAt":"2024-11-27","segmentIndex":40,"time":"39:00","seconds":2340,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Jay to, to end it with you, like, what's the expert playbook?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture","episode":4,"guid":"5ea0fa52-6509-4c75-b17d-42489768db36","episodeTitle":"Why Most Enterprise AI Projects Fail to Show ROI | HP, ServiceNow & Accenture","publishedAt":"2024-11-27","segmentIndex":41,"time":"39:00","seconds":2340,"speaker":"Jay Subrahmonia","text":"I mean, again, a lot from our own Accenture's internal experience of rolling this out to 700, 000 employees. No, it's a step by step journey. Don't expect perfection and maybe never will. This cross functional team, you have to bring in legal compliance, data scientists, infosec, procurement, HR, to be sort of with you in to look, to know what good looks like. Set up effective governance. Take a risk based approach and really leverage existing processes, technology systems and controls. the existing systems where they are versus instituting a whole new process to deal with this.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture","episode":4,"guid":"5ea0fa52-6509-4c75-b17d-42489768db36","episodeTitle":"Why Most Enterprise AI Projects Fail to Show ROI | HP, ServiceNow & Accenture","publishedAt":"2024-11-27","segmentIndex":42,"time":"40:00","seconds":2400,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Yes. It's kind of extending, you know, I've, I've seen a lot of the, of our large customers say like, we have an MLOps playbook. It was almost like, you know, we were reaching some level of maturity with, predictive and traditional machine learning systems pipelines. Everything has gone for a toss, but it's not exactly that. Like, you know, it's about extending the existing processes and the structures around us, to adapt to the GenAI workflows, which is a great thought to end with, and this was very enlightening, I'm sure for all of us, thank you all for, for joining today's talk","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture","episode":4,"guid":"5ea0fa52-6509-4c75-b17d-42489768db36","episodeTitle":"Why Most Enterprise AI Projects Fail to Show ROI | HP, ServiceNow & Accenture","publishedAt":"2024-11-27","segmentIndex":43,"time":"40:00","seconds":2400,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"That's it for this week. Thanks so much for listening and make sure to subscribe to Chain of Thought wherever you get your podcasts. We'll see you next week.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/4-why-most-enterprise-ai-projects-fail-to-show-roi-hp-servicenow-and-accenture/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Welcome back to Chain of Thought, everyone. I'm Conor Bronsdon, Head of Developer Awareness at Galileo, and I'm here with Vikram Chatterji, Co founder and Vikram, great to see you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Like us, Conor. Good to see you again.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":2,"time":"0:00","seconds":0,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"it's been a lot of fun kicking off this show with you. And in the first couple of episodes, we've obviously focused on what's happening today in AI with episode one, talking a bit about regulation, the evolution of AI agents, how writer is winning with enterprises with may have be congrats to them by the way, on their just announced 200 million series C of 1. 9 billion valuation, fantastic stuff. And then obviously key efforts from Google, Anthropic and open AI. Within their AI technology and new products they're releasing. But today you and I really want to focus on the future and look ahead to what we can expect from AI in 2025. And at our recent productionized 2. 0 conference with other AI leaders across the industry, we spoke with Sara Hooker, VP of research at Cohere and head of Cohere for AI and Craig Wiley, senior director of product for Mosaic AI at Databricks about what their predictions about gen AI. We'll look like in 2025 and what the future holds, and we'll share those conversations at the second half of this episode, but first, Vikram, I want to hear from you. What are you anticipating from AI in","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:00","seconds":60,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"question. And it's a good timely time to talk about this too, given that it's Q4 people are reflecting on the whole year that's passed by and everything that's happened. And I feel like there's so much that had happened this year. Everyone thought that at the end of 2023 and people have been even more surprised, now at the end of 2024. And even for folks like me that have been in the industry looking at language models for the last decade, it's been such an exciting and exhilarating year to see all the advancements. it's also a good time to piece the different together to see where the trajectory is going. the way I see it, there are three different things that I'm excited about that I'm going to maybe position as predictions for the next year by the end of 2025. The first one is more at an ecosystem level. So in terms of It's not just like the models, but everything else around it that makes AI click in the enterprise and for developers at the ecosystem level. I'm very bullish still on open source models. We've been doing, as the Hallucination Index from Galileo every couple of quarters. what we've been seeing. Through that is, open source is catching up really fast, but my prediction is by the end of next year, there will be open source LLMs which will catch up with the best closed source models of today. So think the Anthropic Claude models, which are super expensive. I don't even know who's going to use them, but it's very expensive, but large context window, I almost think of them as concept models today, right? It's here's the art of the possible. Some people can use them, but this is what you can do. But within the next year, I feel like there'll be, there will be open source LLMs that'll catch up with that for fairly large context windows for a majority of tasks. And you look back at this year and say wait a second, this is only possible if I paid an arm and a leg to actually make this available to me. But now. I can just use this open source model get it to where I need it to be, which is amazing and really good for the developer community. That's on the ecosystem level. I also think on the market level is a really interesting shift that's happened with AI, where the rules previously of how products are adopted have changed a lot, right? If you look at how mobile apps came around, and the adoption was really great for some apps especially in the social and local side of things, like DoorDash and Facebook and WhatsApp. And they started to get crazy amount of revenue very quickly, but it still took them a while to get to, let's say, a hundred million in revenue versus, my prediction is you'll see a lot of these, what used to be called last year, wrapper apps, and people used to diss on them a lot. I think we'll see at least five to ten of those applications reaching a hundred million in revenue in ARR by the end of 2025. Some of them are already well on their way. So this is something I'm very excited about because it completely breaks the notion of how do you build a business. And I also think it's going to be really great for the developer community to come together and, and build more applications in the space. And the last one, the third one is on the developer level. I feel like, this year has been again, a lot about understanding how. How do you actually trust the applications and how do you know that these applications can actually work really well at scale and a large part of that is just evaluations and we've heard from the community that evaluations are hard. That's because developers are being like data scientists right now where they have to experiment and figure out if it's actually ready to ship or not. And that takes a level of rigor that software engineers are getting really quickly attuned to. So my prediction there at the developer level is by the end of next year, developers will align on best practices for AI system evaluations. And that's not going to be so much of a knowledge bottleneck anymore. It's just going to be a process bottleneck, which obviously tools like Galileo are here to help with and support. But I think that by the end of next year, it's going to be a very different place in terms of maturity for understanding how to evaluate and really, monitor your systems at scale.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":4,"time":"5:00","seconds":300,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I totally agree. I think we're seeing that trend happen already with people talking about evaluation driven development and this conversation starting there. And more and more folks are looking to the evaluation intelligence layer at companies like Galileo to help solve and drive that. I think every conversation we have, we hear from folks saying, Oh we've seen early success. We need to fine tune our model. Now we need to evaluate in production and pre production. Like, how do we make this work? It's pretty clear. There's a major. opportunity for the industry to rapidly improve, particularly as we're seeing a bit of a slowdown in the size of these large LLM s as they hit their maximum for the moment in, training data and what they're actually able to do. it is giving open source a chance to catch up and it is giving us all a chance to say, okay, how can we now fine tune this to work particularly well for specific needs? And that's where we're also saying kind of S. L. M. S. Have their day again. I feel like","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":5,"time":"6:00","seconds":360,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Yeah, absolutely. But those are my predictions, Conor. curious, what are your predictions for the coming year?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":6,"time":"6:00","seconds":360,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I don't know that I have anything revolutionary or at least I'm not gonna be the first one to say this, but I think 2025 is going to be the year of A. I. And nuclear energy. We've seen this trend kick off already here in 2024 with Microsoft's deal to reopen Three Mile Island Reactor 2. Amazon, Google, and others making strides on leveraging nuclear power, particularly for AI data centers. And I expect to see significant continued momentum on building nuclear to support additional, AI data centers. We've seen many major banks come together saying, Hey, we're going to fund nuclear projects. We've seen advancements, on, micro reactors. And there's a clear signal from regulators that they're going to open up the opportunity to build more, nuclear energy. And that's going to help with our baseload broadly, but it's in particular, going to, drive our ability to create larger and, more important models with this. So I'm hopeful we'll see more reactors be updated, reactivated alongside continued investments, in those micro reactors. And it's a huge opportunity to have the industry help move the power grid forward while also solving for the future of AI workloads. And I think giving us this massive scaling opportunity.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":7,"time":"7:00","seconds":420,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"I totally agree. That's going to be very exciting on all fronts.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":8,"time":"7:00","seconds":420,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And I also agree with you around, this new class of AI builders is something that we've talked a lot about. I just think we're going to see this continued expansion, of what it means to be someone in software and in AI. The capacity of Cursor or even just using Claude or chat to PT to help you code, help you put together an app, let alone a presentation or something more basic. There is just a complete revolution happening where. We are just now much more easily able to communicate with computers. There isn't this major barrier of, Hey, you have to learn this new language. You can now come in and do at least basic stuff and increasingly more and more with natural language. I just see that along with the scaling opportunity from more energy, more data, more large models and more small models that we just see coming throughout, whether that's open source or closed source, there is a new Massive wave of people who are coming in saying, Oh let me just build something with this. It just shows the opportunity for the industry.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":9,"time":"8:00","seconds":480,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"absolutely. And I feel like this also gives the power to the, back to the people, in a very exciting way where, I keep going back to mobile all the time because I was early in the world of Android in 2011 2012 timeframe. And it was really exciting to see all the developers getting psyched about mobile, building out these apps for this form factor. But the AI is slightly different because it's not really a new form factor which you're carrying in your pocket. But. It's actually more interesting because it's everywhere. It's ubiquitous. You can put this into an app that you already have. You can also create net new products from the ground up. So it is much more ubiquitous. It is the barrier to entry is reducing a lot. Cost was, now that's reducing as well. And I think as a result of this, what starts to happen is, people can get access to the ability to build even sooner. As an example, I was talking to some friends of mine where This is a friend who has a 10 year old son and for his 10th birthday, they asked him what do you want for your birthday? Do you want, I know they said something generic, like a PlayStation or something like that. But he actually asked for access to, GPT pro. And, he wanted to know more about how you can build websites using GPT models. And that was interesting because for the parents, they were like, how do you even know about this? But for the child, he was like, that's what all my friends are doing because they're bringing out sites for their favorite characters. So if you think of it as what were the kids of today trying to do, that kind of also points to where the future is going. It's just the barrier to entry in terms of building stuff is just reducing a lot more. It's just going to be super exciting and which is why I feel like the outcomes are also going to be pretty large in terms of actual revenue gain for businesses, for the actual operations gain for users. I also think this whole notion of what's the ROI of AI, which is a very enterprise problem right now, which a lot of people are grappling with, which is more of a level setting in terms of expectations for people. is also going to be something which we'll have smoothened out to some extent because of the amount of maturity that's going to come in terms of what can AI actually do versus what it can't do just yet. So I'm excited about that. all of us collectively getting to a level of maturity with AI. that doesn't quite exist yet,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":10,"time":"10:00","seconds":600,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Are there particular applications or types of applications that you think are going to have the most significant impact, through AI in the next year or two?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":11,"time":"10:00","seconds":600,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"I feel like any, that's the beauty of it, right? Like when, if you look back at machine learning, it typically, we still always talk about how, like even at Google, when we were trying to figure out where can we apply NLP, broad scope, that was the game plan at my team. And we started thinking about what are the repeatable tasks that people are doing over and over again, which is super manual today, where there's a lot of text data and CV. There was a lot of image and video data and speech data. And given pervasive unstructured data is, the list is really long of where people have to just go through documents like one by one. Just think about it.Through your day, you're probably likely interacting with a bunch of people who are doing that. You go to your closest UPS or FedEx store, there are probably 10 people doing something like that. You go to a supermarket, there's probably a person who's looking at every single label and putting it in front of a machine. There's so many tasks which can be done. Massively, improved in terms of efficiency, just using generative AI. So I'm just excited about in general, people who are subject matter experts about the retail industry or the financial services industry, specific parts of the healthcare industry where there are massive inefficiencies, especially in the U S, coming in and pairing up with a developer, and just building something really exciting and interesting here. So the opportunities are really incredible. And I feel like some of these use cases that. We can think of right now, we'll be actually very surprised by the end of next year in terms of how some of them have just become extremely ubiquitous and we've just started to get used to them around us. The here and now obviously are things like code generation, which is a massively saturated market. there are a lot of players out there that has emerged as really good use case. There's also obviously other services like legal services and RPA that have come up as, very obvious choices for Gen AI to be, Very influential. And, as we know, at Galileo, we have a lot of financial services customers and customers in telco where they're doing a lot of, deep dives into where are there, where there are outages and using natural language to sequel use cases for that. So it's just been fascinating. all of this is in the last, six to eight months where these use cases have come up and just proliferated across these organizations. So in the next 12 to 14 months, there's going to be so much more that's going to happen.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":12,"time":"12:00","seconds":720,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Awesome. I love the optimism. I think it's a really exciting time to be an AI. And, for folks who are listening and maybe are starting to get into this industry, maybe they're not full time yet. This is the time to jump in because there is a massive opportunity ahead for us. And you'll hear more about it shortly from Craig Wiley at Databricks and Sara Hooker at Cohere after the break. Vikram, thanks so much for coming on again.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":13,"time":"13:00","seconds":780,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"thanks for having me, Conor.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":14,"time":"13:00","seconds":780,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"While you're listening, if you're on Spotify or Apple podcast, do Vikram and I a quick favor, click on the show and select an option to rate the podcast five stars, leave a little review. If you're on Apple, we're so thankful to all of you who have already done. So we're already seeing a ton of interest in the podcast and we can't wait to share the show with more AI builders around the world, I hope you enjoy this conversation with Craig Wiley From Databricks joining us alongside Yash Sheth, a COO and co founder at Galileo for a conversation between the two of them about their predictions for AI in","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":15,"time":"13:00","seconds":780,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"the whole idea of this session is. to get your perspective, Craig on, how, you and the Databricks team see the GenAI space evolving and where it's headed. let's dive into. some of the revelations are learnings from 2024.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":16,"time":"14:00","seconds":840,"speaker":"Craig Wiley","text":"Yeah. the learnings have been good ones, right? If I look back to a year ago at this time, it seemed like the only topic was rag, it was like, Hey, can I rag this, can I rag that, can I rag the internet, can I rag my company? Like, how can I rag everything right. And then I think as we got into 2024, what folks found was that, prompt plus some docs doesn't equal a system that I can bet my company's reputation on. And so all of a sudden there was this massive influx of interest in how do I drive accuracy? And for, what we see in the market is that. Those systems that can actually be run at production quality grade for, with real kind of ramifications. If they get it wrong, those systems are not Hey, I've got a vector store in a prompt and it's good enough. Often these are multi components, real compound or agentic systems that require kind of significant investment and significant tuning to make them really perform the way we would like to. And I think that learning of, Hey. This is going to take more than just some embeddings and a prompt was really the one that I think powered a lot of the product development and a lot of the enterprise, energy over the last six to 12 months.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":17,"time":"15:00","seconds":900,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"right from 2023, when we were all Building amazing, exciting POCs with, with Jenny. I, this year was definitely about what can, where can we actually get the real ROI in production? And you alluded to that a little bit here, but, What was off like from the beginning and like what, in terms of expectations and also what like the hurdles that, that people have said, brought up to you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":18,"time":"15:00","seconds":900,"speaker":"Craig Wiley","text":"I think in a lot of ways, the technology itself got in its own way for a little while there. And what I mean by that is, When GPT launched in November of 22, the data science community, all looked at it and was like, Oh, they trained a giant transformer. That's pretty cool. And they made it available. That's even cooler kind of thing. The. The engineers, it seems like, and the software developers were looking at it going I've been using GitHub copilot and that's legit. Who knows what this new API is going to allow me to start to achieve. But it was really the C suite and the CEOs who all, I think, looked at each other and went, wait a minute, all we need to do to make computers do exactly what we want is tell them what to do. And so there was this moment of max expectation of simplicity With very little knowledge of actually what it takes to get these things grounded and get these things, aware of all of the problems and to squeeze all the kind of entropy and hallucination out of the systems and, and I think that took, a lot of us spent 23 watching startups show up out of nowhere with these great one click, Oh, you bring your text and with one click, I'll give you a rag end point. And I think what I've been seeing this year is customers showing up with those one click rag POCs disappointed looking, saying Hey the demo when the vendor came to us was amazing. The, it was super easy to build, but it just doesn't do at scale and broadly. What I needed to do. And so helping companies start to try and wrap their arms around that problem and try and understand, hey, how well do you know your domain space? What is your golden data set look like? How are you doing evaluation? Are you using LLM judges? All these types of questions were questions that just weren't there. A year ago when everybody thought this was going to be a one click wonder of a technology, but instead I think we all now know that, while this technology will and continues to simplify abstractions for folks, actually building production quality AI systems that you're willing to bet your company's reputation on takes a lot of investment and a lot of hard work.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":19,"time":"17:00","seconds":1020,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"we've also been seeing how, beyond embeddings and prompts, there's been a lot of infrastructure that is being set up to take actions, to generate the ROI that we expect from these agents, and not just be that one click wonder, from that perspective, like, where do you see the industry headed,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":20,"time":"18:00","seconds":1080,"speaker":"Craig Wiley","text":"I think we're at a really interesting point, earlier this year, function calling started to really show up as a new capability. And I often, we'll talk to customers and you can almost delineate a level of maturity on whether or not function calling is being used aggressively. And, with function calling these functions, this idea of models using other tools or using other models and this kind of idea of agent interaction and things like this, I really think this is where we're starting to see some of the real innovation because now all of a sudden I can take these, this hard, Hey, my model is performing well, except It's not performing well over here in this space. What if I were to deploy a couple of tools, specialized tools for that space, and now all of a sudden, instead of my model kind of naively going over there, trying to figure out what the right answer is now, there's a couple of kind of purpose built models. Capabilities for it to go utilize in this area of high entropy or of challenging topical or domain space. And that's, I think, the piece that I'm really excited about is seeing how folks are able to start stringing these pieces together And really, to start seeing these models and agents get a lot smaller, and what I mean by smaller, not only, hey, does size make serving these things smaller, but, if this bot I'm building, or this agent I'm building, If it had a very narrow set of capabilities that I'm actually asking of it, I can tune that much more effectively than a very large one, and then I can maybe orchestrate it as part of a bigger bunch as opposed to trying to, boil the ocean with one single kind of, my company GPT dot com or something like that. And so that this idea of tools and increasingly agent interaction is one where I really think we're going to see a lot performance improvement as we come into the new year.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":21,"time":"20:00","seconds":1200,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"So prediction one, 2025 is going to be an era of toolification. Seems like","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":22,"time":"20:00","seconds":1200,"speaker":"Craig Wiley","text":"fingers crossed. I hope so. Cause right now it does feel like the most, one of the most promising capabilities for really driving a stepwise improvement in the accuracy of these systems.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":23,"time":"20:00","seconds":1200,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Exactly. And I think, going from that, like it's, it seems the smart thing to do is to be specific about, the use cases, go deeper into specific. Use cases versus building something very broad on to that effect, would love to get your thoughts on, teams are rethinking, the scope and keeping that kind of focus, in place.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":24,"time":"20:00","seconds":1200,"speaker":"Craig Wiley","text":"the idea of this focus or this idea of in a much narrower sense is where we're seeing a lot of the value come from for organizations. If I sit there and say hey, my objective with this endpoint or with this model or chatbot or what have you is to cover this massively broad area. Then things like developing evaluation schemas and developing kind of my own ability to understand that domain, parse that domain, and break it down, really starts to become the headwind in many cases, right? Whereas if this is an area that is somewhat tractable, if this is a domain, hey maybe I do want to build that customer service chatbot, but I'm going to limit it to, my, order and delivery pipeline this time, and then the next time I'm going to, I'm going to have it focus on, product specifications and product challenges and break these different silos of both data, customer need and usage, and really instead of trying to build it. One chat bot to rule them all, instead maybe having something focused on, Hey, how do I respond to customers who have questions about supply chain versus how do I respond to customers who have questions about product performance or product capabilities and, or troubleshooting. And I think as we start to see folks naturally, Start to break some of these things up and start to attack them a bit more in a bit more of a targeted way. I think we'll be able to see evaluation and a lot of the kinds of the challenges that come with this become something that folks are. It's easier to approach and it gets a little bit easier to start putting, wins on the board all of a sudden when you're able to build and deliver that thing at a really high quality, as opposed to having the giant bot that underwhelms across a series of use cases, if you will.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":25,"time":"22:00","seconds":1320,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Speaking of use cases, right? Like I think what I've been seeing across, across our customers is actually a lot of the use cases can have multi modal aspects to them in some ways. what are your thoughts there? What do you say?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":26,"time":"22:00","seconds":1320,"speaker":"Craig Wiley","text":"Multi modal man, oh man, it was exciting. I was really excited to see the new Lama models launch. Clearly multi modal is coming, but I think, When we all think about, or at least when I think about multimodal, I'm thinking about video gen and video understanding and, live chat, like live voice chat and all of these kinds of things where the modality is a real, it's a real luxury to get to think about these modalities, but to be perfectly honest, collectively, we're not parsing PDFs all that well like it would be one thing if this modality were really were like, Hey, I can take in all senses at all points in time and kind of fully understand them. But to be perfectly honest, I'd be really excited if insurance companies could parse claims docs successfully. And, helping companies start to try and understand, Hey, how do I start? I've been able to extract all this text. I have these tables or these images. Not only how do I interact with them and how do I parse them and chunk them and what have you but how do I make sense of them within my system? Do I describe them and then treat them as text? Do I use a multimodal system and what are the benefits of that? And I think, today The cost of multimodal is still high enough that unless you need it, it's probably not the right direction. But, I think as this technology continues to get faster and cheaper, as the next gen of hardware comes through, I'm really excited to see whether or not we're going to be able to move to, it's funny with LLMs. I was talking to a data scientist recently who said my challenge with LLMs is that the data, the Folks building it, all of it are sloppy. They just pour all the data in and there is some, for a classic kind of machine learning scientist, yeah, it might feel funny to just pour in, all the text we have into this model or something like that. The way folks often find can be valuable and. And I think in that regard, getting to a place where we could do that for multimodal would be super exciting. But to be honest, as far as 2025 goes, my hope is that we exit 2025 a human understanding of PDFs to be perfect.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":27,"time":"24:00","seconds":1440,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Yeah, there's just so many use cases that have PDF manuals and books and, illustrations that, we're not parsing all the knowledge from charts and graphs. And, even if I like scan a newspaper, like a literally printed newspaper and. give it to the LLM, there are certain visual components that, that, that don't get caught.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":28,"time":"25:00","seconds":1500,"speaker":"Craig Wiley","text":"It's those times When the interaction of the text and the visual when that when the text is discussing the visual and the visual is discussing the text and back and forth that I think it becomes a requirement that we start to figure this out more effectively.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":29,"time":"25:00","seconds":1500,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"And lastly, Craig what about governance and, thinking of trustworthiness when it comes to and a lot of what we've talked about is, in service of getting, the model, the entire journey, I system to operate accurately and reliably reducing scope, thinking about toolification function calling, some of the challenges with multimodal, I think it all boils down to us running, an accurate and trustworthy system in production.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":30,"time":"25:00","seconds":1500,"speaker":"Craig Wiley","text":"This is an area where obviously Databricks, takes a really opinionated stance on governance. I really think that, as these technologies continue to increase and continue to get more and more data hungry, the requirement to understand the flows of data that you have and the lineage and kind of the dag of data traveling through your own usage patterns as well as the systems you're building and the ability to really govern that, right? The ability to ensure that, hey, whoever's asking this question of my system, am I able to confidently say that, hey, they have access or they have permission to view any of the training data that went into this system and any of the data that I'm injecting through the prompt and, that is, maybe it's really straightforward if this is a public endpoint, but if this is an internal endpoint, that's Seeks to talk about HR challenges, or seeks to, dive into my JIRA tickets, or something like that. Ensuring that governance is met at every step. And I say it may be easier looking externally but, certainly we've seen plenty of leakages without Gen AI externally. And being able to have just an extraordinarily high degree of confidence. Here's the deal Legislation and compliance is coming and the more and more impressive and exciting this technology come gets, the more and more likely that compliance is going to come and have a giant impact. And so ensuring that you're ready for that, that hey, where, what data am I consuming? Where is that data coming from? How am I consuming it? And being able to really reflect that back for each system and even each prompt that each system responds with is going to be a requirement as we move forward in time, as opposed to maybe the luxury it's been in the past.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":31,"time":"27:00","seconds":1620,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Awesome. Really quick. I know we're a few minutes over, but, Craig, I want to, end this amazing discussion with one hot take from you is at the end of 2025, if you were to wave a magic wand, what would you want to happen?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":32,"time":"27:00","seconds":1620,"speaker":"Craig Wiley","text":"Yeah, other than PDFs, that's a good one, right? No, here's the deal. I met with a group of banks recently, and I asked them, Hey, how many of you have Gen AI capabilities in production? And they all raised their hand. And I said, how many of you have more than one? And almost all of them raised their hand. And I said, how many of them are ROI positive? And all of their hands went down. And this is something we've got to help the industry succeed at. And, I'm super impressed with the work that Galileo is doing. It's, whenever I have folks who are concerned about the performance of their systems in production, I often will have them call you guys, because I think there are a few companies better positioned to be able to help companies with some of those challenges. And really, I think, really excited about the partnership we continue to have, but really. As I look forward, I think I'm looking forward to that moment next year when I can look out at a group of banks or a group of other enterprises and say, hey, how much are you making because of Gen AI? How is Gen AI contributing to your bottom, positively contributing to your bottom line? And I'm really excited about us starting to see that set of use cases come through next year.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":33,"time":"29:00","seconds":1740,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Amazing. That's a great way to end this. And thank, thanks for the partnership as well, Craig. And it's, I hope together we can make a difference and make that a reality next year.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":34,"time":"29:00","seconds":1740,"speaker":"Craig Wiley","text":"Ab Absolutely. Thanks again and, congrats to all the folks watching you've chosen a, an extraordinarily relevant, meeting to stay tuned to Have a great day. Thanks Ash.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":35,"time":"29:00","seconds":1740,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Next up, you'll hear from Sara Hooker at Cohere about what she expects to see out of AI in 2025. And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":36,"time":"29:00","seconds":1740,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"I'm really happy to invite Sara today and thanks for coming.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":37,"time":"29:00","seconds":1740,"speaker":"Sara Hooker","text":"It's such a pleasure to be here. So really looking forward to this chat.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":38,"time":"29:00","seconds":1740,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Amazing. So the, exciting topic we have today is, predictions for 2025, when it comes to generative AI, the space is moving so, so rapidly. Open it up to you.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":39,"time":"29:00","seconds":1740,"speaker":"Sara Hooker","text":"I would say for 2025, there's a few things. I think that the realm of optimization is going to expand. So you can optimize in the data space, you can dynamically change your data pools, the algorithm, but also tooling is going to become. More pronounced, but I think people have very difficult time evaluating the caliber of tooling, when we talk about tooling, it means different things to different people. And to be honest, a lot of the time you're bumping into the infrastructure of the internet. So it's really unclear how you evaluate when everything feels very tied to the specificity of a given API. And so that's wide open. How do you actually evaluate if these algorithms are doing a good job? I think multimodal is going to be a crucial, a few questions there, which is that, how do you understand if the model's uncertain, if there's multiple different modalities? This is important from a safety perspective, but we struggle with it with individual domains and multimodal compounds the complexity of it. So what I think we'll see there is like very interesting work. Trying to get at in many ways, the core question, which is for us as humans, having multiple inputs, audio, visual, motion actually helps us calibrate uncertainty because for a given second of inputs, we can understand, does this match or something off? And I think we're going to see really interesting work. They're trying to do the same, for our algorithms. And for me, for someone who works a lot on safety, I think that's very interesting as a direction.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":40,"time":"31:00","seconds":1860,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"How do you think, the work we're doing with, adaptation of these models now is going to help unlock some problems some big, progress in the multimodal space and even the tooling space, right? As we were talking about before. With Craig as well, that as, all of these, I would say capabilities of the LLMs are enhanced with tools. And there are so many different tools that are used by agents to actually do mission critical work. the ability of these models to adapt to diverse APIs or multimodal content, like just a PDF of, diagram with a table and the model able to understand that. what do you think we need to do now to be able to unlock these capabilities next year?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":41,"time":"32:00","seconds":1920,"speaker":"Sara Hooker","text":"Yeah, I would say so with the tooling, I think people underestimate this. So tooling is often thought of, as a, a pure research question. How do you enable tooling? The reality is you are bumping into things. Every API has been designed in a different way. So what that means is you're either going to have to get much better on, on the fly exploration. So how do you figure out how the API differs? How do you automatically adjust? Which is traditionally something our algorithms are not as good at. or you're going to have to pick and choose your tools and saturate the data space. Both of these are interesting possibilities, but. I think the real question is, that's more fun to think about is who innovates with a mixture of both. Who's able to leverage, gain enough data from some tools to an exploration strategy for others. And it's a, not a trivial problem. And so I actually think while tooling will continue to dominate over the next year, I suspect if we find ourselves here next year, catching up, I think that we'll still see. Some tools been used quite well because people have just saturated the data space. But in terms of making things work for your tool for a given business, I think that it's a formidable challenge and it means that exploration piece to work.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":42,"time":"33:00","seconds":1980,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Yeah. One last thing about 2025, right? A lot of your focus is on safety, and, regulations aside, I think, what are some of the, regulations that, in my opinion, but, on the fundamental like science, of these LLMs and safety of these LLMs, what are some of the breakthroughs that you're hoping for, in 2020?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":43,"time":"33:00","seconds":1980,"speaker":"Sara Hooker","text":"One aspect of research that we've done a lot of work on, that I think is very interesting, is how do you optimize for multiple objectives? Because safety is very interesting, right? Because at any one time, safety is both global, there's some concepts that typically there's consensus on across regions, like no violence generated, or, really strict guidelines around sexual and CSAM content, and these are Typically agreed on and very universal wherever you operate, but then there's also specificity of local harms And this is a very important technical challenge. How do you align a model, to both your global, but also your local alignment and to do this in a way in which you're flexible, and you can adapt a model to each domain separately in each jurisdiction. And so a lot of what we've been doing around, this area is preference alignment, which is really this gold dust that happens at the end of training where you're steering your model. And how do you do that according to a multiple objective? I think this is very important and it's a very crucial building block from actually creating Models which can be used in many different settings","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":44,"time":"34:00","seconds":2040,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"we've been thinking about you know having better preference models, even as a mode of observability or even as a mode of, if we designed a system or if we deployed a system to do X, Y, and Z, three different objectives, are we aligning to those objectives, which is, one, some of the baby steps we've taken are like metrics and algorithms called instruction adherence. If. People are giving, instructions from their objectives to the LLM that this is what I expect to see, is the output actually adhering to those. This just baby steps here, totally, resonate with the direction of adapting them, the model. From a preference alignments perspective seems like a very exciting space.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":45,"time":"35:00","seconds":2100,"speaker":"Sara Hooker","text":"Yeah, and this is also very crucial what you're describing, which is, let's say you align on a set of preferences and you're tailoring them. You want to know, can you then track progress against your new set of objectives? So it's super important. It's actually critical. It's part of the same problem space.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":46,"time":"35:00","seconds":2100,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"That's awesome. So we made three predictions, but now let's get onto the hot takes. If there was like one thing that like, being fortune tellers right now, a year from now, what would be you would want to see?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":47,"time":"36:00","seconds":2160,"speaker":"Sara Hooker","text":"I think we're going to see dual, so dual trends. I think models are going to get bigger, but, and this is mainly for multimodal. I think people are going to push out the boat and see how far they can go. But I also think models are going to get a lot smaller as we better leverage, optimization in a broader way. So optimization, the inference space, and also data, optimization where we stratify our dataset. And so that's pretty exciting. I do a lot of work on efficiency at scale. And so for me, it's super interesting to think about how we do more with less. And what's your hot take? You can't get away with that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":48,"time":"36:00","seconds":2160,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Bringing up the cuff, I think one of the biggest, bottlenecks I've seen in, I deeply care about, teams being able to adopt this technology for every single use case. And I love the the idea of adaptation and this for these LLMs. I think, one of the big things, if you look at, what, every business is thinking about is like, Oh, there were a lot of POCs this last year, we've been trying to productionize, a lot of these this year, but it's been taking much longer than we expected to, next year, I would want there to be a world where every AI developer. Knows exactly what they need to do to leverage this technology confidently. And this is, intentionally high level, but because there are few different aspects to it, but, Really, in, in, in a minute, it will be, it's basically a combination of having the right trust layer, having the right regulations and having the right foundational, capabilities of these models to adapt. And the three combination will give us a much better framework, and accelerate adoption of GenAI in the world.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":49,"time":"37:00","seconds":2220,"speaker":"Sara Hooker","text":"Yeah, I do fundamentally believe that adaptability and also, the ability for, I think one of the things I see is how do end stakeholders quickly shape and provide feedback to guide and align some of these models and efficiently. So it doesn't take much time. I think this is one of the most fun problems to work on.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":50,"time":"38:00","seconds":2280,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Amazing. So excited. So happy to speak to you. This was an amazing conversation. Thanks a lot, Sara.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere","episode":3,"guid":"a88d37b0-a506-4953-b311-7c1d2221683e","episodeTitle":"GenAI Predictions for 2025 | Databricks & Cohere","publishedAt":"2024-11-20","segmentIndex":51,"time":"38:00","seconds":2280,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Make sure to subscribe to chain of thought wherever you get your podcast, don't forget to check out Galileo's YouTube channel, where you can watch every episode of the podcast as well as events like productionize. And don't forget to connect with us on Twitter or LinkedIn at run Galileo or find Vikram there as well. He has a lot of interesting things to say. So let us know what you think. We'd love to hear from you about the show and we'll see you next week.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/3-genai-predictions-for-2025-databricks-and-cohere/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:13","seconds":13,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Hey folks. Welcome back to the Chain of Thought podcast episode two. We want to start by giving a massive thank you to everyone who has already rated and reviewed the podcast after episode one last week. We've been overwhelmed by the support. Thank you so much. This week on the podcast, we're bringing you Got Agents, a session from our Production Ize two point o virtual event. It was recorded live in front of an audience of over 2,000 people from more than 60 countries around the world. AI agents have captured everyone's attention and imagination,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:45","seconds":45,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"emerging as the next hot thing in AI. To help explain agents and why they've exploded onto the scene, we're joined by Brian Raymond, founder and CEO at unstructured.io Bob Van Laoght, cofounder and CEO at Weaviate, João Moura, founder at CrewAI, and Yash Sheth, cofounder and COO of Galileo, is our session host. Yash, take it away.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":2,"time":"1:11","seconds":71,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"And thank you all for joining us today. In the last three weeks itself, I've met several teams across different verticals, several leadership teams as well,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:22","seconds":82,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"and the term agents itself is quite overloaded. As we go deeper into it, I'd like to set the record straight and set a baseline of what are agents? What do we mean by agents? And who better than Joe here, founder of TrueAI, to tell us about his perspective there?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":4,"time":"1:39","seconds":99,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"All right. So AI agents, that's a good question. I feel like everyone kind of like agrees and disagrees at it at the same time. So it's a little weird. For me, it's very simple. For me, having an agent is about having agency.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":5,"time":"1:54","seconds":114,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"So regular flows that is if this, that, that call alarms, that is not an agent for me. Me, an agent is something that controls the flow of the application. It uses a MLL m as a brain to kind of like decide and have some reasoning on how to go about things. But in the end of the day, deciding what tools to use it, when to use it, how to format the answer, how to go about a thing. And that would be for me, base definition of what an agent is, like, something that has agency.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":6,"time":"2:26","seconds":146,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Absolutely. And to think of that, you know, there's, you know, we think of agents as like a planning phase and an execution phase, but when we go into the architecture itself, like what are some of the key components, and this is a question for all three of you, when we think about building agents, what are some of the most essential components of the agentic architecture?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":7,"time":"2:46","seconds":166,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"And it's, as we, you know, it's already been established as well beyond Rag plus Prompts. Right? So love to get your perspectives there.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":8,"time":"2:52","seconds":172,"speaker":"Brian Raymond","text":"Look, I think the interesting thing is, is that, you know, this is a kind of a special moment. We're almost at the two year mark on the from the release of ChatGPT. And we started out by using just what's in memory in the models. Right?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":9,"time":"3:05","seconds":185,"speaker":"Brian Raymond","text":"And we dusted off that meta paper and we hooked that sector up, right, to, to all the crazy stuff Bob's been building. Right? And the thing was alive. Right? So he helped counter some of the three problems with just using what's in memory and and the models, which that models are frozen in time. They don't have access to private data and they tend to make stuff up. Right? And so","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":10,"time":"3:24","seconds":204,"speaker":"Brian Raymond","text":"RAD became, you know, a dominant paradigm, interestingly, like, you know, in order to actually put these things into use, but to actually drive towards like multi step process automation, which is kind of how I think about the business value of it. Right? You need to take the models, you need to take the prevailing Rag architecture, and then you need to be able to set that into motion. I think that's, what's really exciting about what the folks over at CrewAI are doing and others, which is highly variable depending on","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":11,"time":"3:55","seconds":235,"speaker":"Brian Raymond","text":"the types of agents that you're working on. Right. And that you're wanting to set in motion. And so, you know, from like, you know, from that standpoint, it depends on like, you could think about like, what's going into like a Tesla and the self driving mode, right. As a genetic, it perceives the world that makes decisions and then takes action. Right. Which might be different","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":12,"time":"4:14","seconds":254,"speaker":"Brian Raymond","text":"from a trading bot that a hedge fund might use. Right. And so depending on the types of agents, right. Different frameworks are needed, different model hosting and serving capabilities are required. Right. And so what going all the way down to like the cloud architecture and the hardware, I think it's fairly variable depending on what, you know, what the actual","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":13,"time":"4:36","seconds":276,"speaker":"Brian Raymond","text":"business or operational use case is for the agent and like what data needs to make available to it and a host of other sort of related issues.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":14,"time":"4:43","seconds":283,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Bob, you want to go next?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":15,"time":"4:44","seconds":284,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"Yeah, I don't have much to add there, so thanks for having me by the way, Josh. But I think what Joe said is very interesting, right? So it's like, if something has agency, so it can make a decision, are we going go left or are we going to go right,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":16,"time":"4:59","seconds":299,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"right, and rather than saying, if this, then go left, else go right, there's some reasoning to it, right, so I think it's as simple as that and the reason why it's so important is because if we look at data management and those kind of things, we kind of got stuck in that world, right, so low data quality, not getting to insights from your data, that's just still the number one problem with all the exciting stuff that's happening.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":17,"time":"5:28","seconds":328,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"So I recently had a conversation with a with a CIO and he said, like, he said, it's all great what you guys are building over there. I said, wonderful. He said he said, but I still have like 15 ERP systems and I can't, you know, I can't make heads or tails of it. Right. So if you can help me solve that, then that's the, and that's where, you know, the agents or the, as I like to say the agentic way of doing stuff","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":18,"time":"5:50","seconds":350,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"comes in. And that's where the value is going to come from. And let's bear in mind that Rag, you know, I run Weaviate, so I'm very happy with Rag, right? Of course. You can imagine why. But the thing is it's also one dimensional, or one directional I should say. And there's a lot of exciting stuff that's happening, know, thanks to this agentic way of thinking,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":19,"time":"6:11","seconds":371,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"where we're gonna loop that information back into the database, right, and that we really start to build smarter systems, and that is extremely exciting. And it goes back because now I can go back to that CIO and say like, you know what, maybe there's a way to help you solve that problem that you have. So it's exciting times and that's what the agentic way of thinking is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":20,"time":"6:31","seconds":391,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"solving.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":21,"time":"6:32","seconds":392,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"Yeah. And to add a few things to that, I think you got a new in the head, like we definitely have seen kind of like a few plateaus as we go, but like we keep like finding these other things that unlocks more stuff. And honestly, I think that like agents, like as we start are usually kind of like straightforward, right? Like, Hey, I have an LLM. I have tools. I have a task. I would give you an outcome. What I find though, is that as you bring these things into production, especially like an enterprise company, then another, like a few other needs start to pop up. And those are more like regular kind of like a, how can I say a regular technology needs? We have seen this before, right? Since they're like, oh, I want a caching layer. I want my agent sees the same tools over and over. Oh, I want a memory layer. So it's not only about the caching, it's about being able to do the rag, pull the context,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":22,"time":"7:22","seconds":442,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"create kind of like a long term memory of everything that I have done and the things that I have learned. So I do need to keep relearning them and everything along the way. And then of course you go into the regular guardrails and you want to have a validation and you want to have everything in between. So I do find that these architectures, at least they tend to start simple, but once that you go into production, especially under your company, that","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":23,"time":"7:47","seconds":467,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"security is another layer and distribution is another layer, then like you start to add a bunch of other components that kind of like can get the complexity to, to skyrocket a little bit.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":24,"time":"7:58","seconds":478,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Exactly. Right. I think that's, that's, this is great. Cause like, I wanted to cover, I mean, data is the backbone of our agentic flows, but I think what I'm also seeing is that, for example, APIs, let's say we want an agent to call an API effectively.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":25,"time":"8:14","seconds":494,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Do we have a standardized spec for that API? Is that API changing over time? How do we make sure that the agent is able to call that API effectively? Like these are, I mean, this is just one small example that as Joe mentioned, like security permissions, if the, if you want the agent to act on our behalf, how do we make that auth token sort of pass through towards the end system and get that, get the action approved from the end system, like who's authorized to make these agents take actions on their behalf.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":26,"time":"8:47","seconds":527,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Some of these things like, you know, we are still in the early stages, but in order to like truly make agents operational in production, Some of the questions from the audience was also similar, like how do we have agents interact with ERP systems like effectively, right? Yeah.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":27,"time":"9:03","seconds":543,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"I can quickly say something there, Josh, it's like, I recently had a conversation with somebody who was super interesting and this person was he was proposing","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":28,"time":"9:12","seconds":552,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"to like have an add on to the, to the RESTful architecture. Right. So that he said, like, if we see the return headers that are coming in an API call, he was proposing ideas where he would say like, who's going to consume this information? And if then the return header would say, well, it's actually not a human or like system button, a model that's going to consume the information,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":29,"time":"9:34","seconds":574,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"then how you would format what was coming back would be different. Right? And so I love how people are thinking about that and how people are even going back in time to, this case, restful architectures to say, like, can we do something there to rather saying like, you know, it's gonna be consumed by humans, it's gonna be consumed by an application or by model.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":30,"time":"9:56","seconds":596,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"So it's like, there's a lot of exciting stuff happening there. And because I think that more and more of these interactions will be handled by models.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":31,"time":"10:04","seconds":604,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Absolutely. And I think one other kind of aspect that came up also in our previous discussions is with agentic workflows, the dependency on multimodal environments becomes even broader and even bigger. Like, I think question for you, Brian, on like, how do you see kind of just the challenges with digesting","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":32,"time":"10:26","seconds":626,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"multimodal information being kind of a blocker in some ways for some agentic workflows today? What are we doing to get past that?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":33,"time":"10:34","seconds":634,"speaker":"Brian Raymond","text":"I kind of break it down into three different buckets and you could break this down in a number of different ways. First is data availability. So for example, like Bob and I were at a conference last week where a CIO said, actually my number one problem right now for adopting generative AI is RBAC. It's role based access controls and just managing that across, you know, our, their enormous organization.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":34,"time":"10:54","seconds":654,"speaker":"Brian Raymond","text":"What a boring topic and a boring issue to be blocking generative AI adoption, but like, it's real.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":35,"time":"11:00","seconds":660,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"Why didn't you say that to Ryan? Why didn't you say that during the past?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":36,"time":"11:04","seconds":664,"speaker":"Brian Raymond","text":"But a lot of you struggle, right? Like this stuff. So data availability, data quality, structuring it. That's what Bob was just talking about. Right. And that's where we see, you know, embedding natural language or, you know, image data, whatever it might be generating triples, for example, indexing it in graph, try and make RAD work better, whatever it might be, you know, changing how APIs deliver payloads. Then three, like how you're actually serving that to the model.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":37,"time":"11:31","seconds":691,"speaker":"Brian Raymond","text":"This, you know, right now, like for example, when we're using multimodal models, we're thinking like with best in the business, we're still looking at like twenty or thirty seconds for inference on just like base on basic stuff on just tiling PDF pages and boring stuff like that, that we do. Right. If you want this to be sub millisecond for, you know, like, oh, I have like a, almost a human feel to this as, as sensor data is coming in. Right. Then you'd need to be really thoughtful about like what sort of cocktail of models that you're using to power those models. Oh, because","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":38,"time":"12:05","seconds":725,"speaker":"Brian Raymond","text":"this is something that Chip and the other panelists was talking about the last, in the last panel, which is that like, look, sub 7,000,000,000, sub 2,000,000,000, sub billion text to text models might work absolutely fabulously for a lot of tasks. Right. And so being really thoughtful about which models you're giving, which workloads, in order to deliver that, that business value, but you gotta solve across that whole value chain. If you're going to do that, I think stepping back,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":39,"time":"12:31","seconds":751,"speaker":"Brian Raymond","text":"what I'm seeing at least from like the, over the summer and into the fall are lots of startups emerging to go grab data in the wild. So it's like kind of solve old problems, go, go rip, you know, go scroll, scrape websites, rip HTML, deliver to the models. And then the stuff that companies like, you know, I'm in part of the value chain and unstructured, which is like get private data and deliver that and, you know, as as clearly structured of of a manner as you possibly can","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":40,"time":"13:01","seconds":781,"speaker":"Brian Raymond","text":"to help the models, be successful. Because at the end of the day, the math is never gonna change. You want to deliver to the context window exactly what the model needs, nothing more as efficiently as possible if you want to minimize cost, time, and also maximize performance.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":41,"time":"13:18","seconds":798,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"And accessing data is absolutely important. Like, yeah, just a question keeps coming up is like, how do we even let the right person access the right data and manage access that way? But from the accuracy standpoint, right? Like Brian, that you mentioned,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":42,"time":"13:33","seconds":813,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"maybe Bob, I'd love to, and I know you have your hand raised as well. So, you know, feel free to chime in here, but Bob, how do we ensure like agentic workflows are going to need more specificity on the data that is provided as part of the rag outputs and you know, how are folks, how are developers solving that today?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":43,"time":"13:51","seconds":831,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"Before answering your question, really would like to comment something on the previous point because the, we","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":44,"time":"13:57","seconds":837,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"have a lot of people now listening and building, you know, coming up with ideas and building these kinds of applications And I think so things like RBAC, etcetera, are more like, you know, things that people need to go into production. Right. I really would like to urge people to just don't think back in time. Don't think backwards. Right. So we see that a lot of,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":45,"time":"14:18","seconds":858,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"a lot of things that I see is like how people try to implement this is that they just basically slap on the old techniques to something new. But I really believe that with AI, we are like in this new paradigm, how we do stuff. Right. So there are even new ways of doing, for example, RBAC. Now, what that means and how that works, I don't know, because if I would know,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":46,"time":"14:38","seconds":878,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"you know, we probably would be doing something there, but the point is that this is the time, right, to come up with new ways of, to think about, because you know, RBAC is very binary, right? So it's like access or not. Right. But what if it's like certain type of information or nuances of information that you're getting from the model? And I think that, you know, startups that will emerge","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":47,"time":"15:00","seconds":900,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"that solve that, right? So, but not in like the old way, but like in a new way, just leveraging the models to do, for example, RBAC or whatever that's, I really would like to urge people to, you know, to keep thinking that step ahead. And then to answer your question, like how do people do it? Well, so one of the challenges that we have right now with like with chunking and those kinds of things","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":48,"time":"15:25","seconds":925,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"is that sometimes the true value comes from more information where we don't have any access to, right? So let me give you an example. So let's say that you have like email and so we have like we've yet we have like a customer with a big use case in email and I happen to be using that application as well. So if I go like, okay, you know, what time is my flight today? Right. Then, you know, it does like a hybrid search to the database. It's properly junked. It goes into the model and then it will return, I don't know, a 01:15PM,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":49,"time":"16:02","seconds":962,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"right? But if I then ask the question, the follow-up question, so, you know, what terminal is it from? Then, you know, the answer I get like, don't know, that information is not available. And one of the things that we've seen right now is that the junking, and yes, sometimes it's hard and sometimes it depends on the information, but the kind of the techniques are now kind of here, right, how to deal with that,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":50,"time":"16:26","seconds":986,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"is that bringing together also had like what stuff with crew, etcetera, is doing is like bringing together different ways and different sources of information to really truly help the end user. That is stuff where I really would love to see more being built. So Rack, one dimensional Rack. So I often just draw it like as a line right from the query to the answer.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":51,"time":"16:49","seconds":1009,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"It's brought us very far, but now we need to start to bring in loops, right? So what if you have more questions? What if we need to query multiple times? And that is something we at We've Hit, we put a lot of work in that. So we'll probably get to that later, but the feedback loops to get might be multiple sources of information, do multiple queries from the database.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":52,"time":"17:09","seconds":1029,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"That is going to be tremendously important because that's where the true value sits. And let's not forget if we talk about what you just mentioned, right? With this one dimensional structure is like, we only talk about reading, right? Reading information. So I have a query, you get a result and it's presented to you. But what about writing? What if the agent you're talking to or interacting with is, you know, what time is my appointment? And it says, oh, you don't have an appointment today. And what if I then say, okay, can you book an appointment for me? Right. So that kind of stuff, a lot of work needs to be done there and it's happening. Of course it's happening, of course, but I would love to see everybody that's also listening to us right now,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":53,"time":"17:49","seconds":1069,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"when we're done with our panel to get their hands to the keyboards and help us build more of these kinds of tools. After the panel, after the panel, not now.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":54,"time":"17:58","seconds":1078,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Don't start yet.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":55,"time":"18:00","seconds":1080,"speaker":"Brian Raymond","text":"Yeah. I was just going to share just for sake of just candor, a failure and a success that we've had, or let's say a hope, a probable success on the failure, or at least we haven't cracked the code yet. We've been trying to use agents to help automate","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":56,"time":"18:16","seconds":1096,"speaker":"Brian Raymond","text":"the setup of connectors. So I'm gonna pull from Salesforce or S3, etcetera. Right? And it's a pain in the ass. Like we have, we've sat live with like lots and lots and lots of users. And like the fastest folks have been able to set up a connector is like fifteen to twenty minutes a lot because it requires like emailing an admin to get, you know, certain permissions and so on and so forth. It's a giant pain in the ass. Right? And we're like, oh, well, let's use some, let let's use, you know, agents for this. And it's proven incredibly difficult to have that work. So that's like the one we haven't cracked quite yet in order to like productionize it and put it, put it out in the wild for our users to leverage.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":57,"time":"18:56","seconds":1136,"speaker":"Brian Raymond","text":"On the success side, we're hoping to move this into prod somewhere time around, like after Thanksgiving around like reinvent December 1, but this isn't like prop. I, it depends on how strict you are with the definition of agents, but with the definition I gave you earlier, we're looking at like dynamic pipelines where models are sampling data. Like say you have a fresh, you're doing a fresh pull from S3.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":58,"time":"19:19","seconds":1159,"speaker":"Brian Raymond","text":"You sample it, you spin up a, you run a bunch of different chunking techniques in parallel. You have models judge, which, which kind of chunking strategy it prefers for that particular type of data. And then decides to implement that for that particular job to do the same thing for embedding model selection as like you could, if you wanted to for better model selection, which might be problematic, but like for all these cocktails and models that we,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":59,"time":"19:44","seconds":1184,"speaker":"Brian Raymond","text":"that our, our users rely upon to go from raw to like rag ready data. So I can do a baton task to Bob. Right. Well, you may have six or eight different models along that. And it might vary wildly depending on the type of data that you're pulling from. Right. On like which cocktail models and which settings, make the most sense. And so we're trying to automate that or at least make those dynamic by inserting","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":60,"time":"20:05","seconds":1205,"speaker":"Brian Raymond","text":"one or more models to help perceive, you know, decide and then act in terms of like adapting pipeline configurations autonomously.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":61,"time":"20:13","seconds":1213,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"Amazing. Joe. Yeah, no, I wanna, I wanna touch you one thing that Brian said that I think is super relevant and that is we are seeing a lot of people kind of like going after like use cases and agenda again and getting burned. Right. And sometimes it's not even about the truth that they're cheesing is about like, it's,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":62,"time":"20:31","seconds":1231,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"I get it. I think it go back to what we're talking. Starts very simple, but once that you get, like, you're like, all right, now when I get a reliable, consistent results, you're like, oh, all right. So this, there's a lot more that I need to put into this in order to get what I actually need from this. So there's definitely something that we are seeing where like, some of our customers are coming to us saying like, Hey, we do this. We have this thing. It kind of works is very promising, but it's not up to our standards. Like when it affects your thing and other customers come up with like this","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":63,"time":"21:00","seconds":1260,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"crazy use cases, right? They are looking for a 100% accuracy. And honestly, right now it's not a time for that. You don't get a 100% accuracy with AI agents. That's not how things goes. You can definitely get humans in the loop and that brings you very close to it, but it's something that you to be mindful of. So whenever somebody shows me, he's like, Hey, I want to do accounting. I was like, well, you can definitely try it, but you're going have some cute little loop there. They don't pretend that you're going like automate the whole thing end to end.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":64,"time":"21:29","seconds":1289,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Absolutely. And Joe, to that effect, right? Like moving on from the data to the application side, like what are some of the learnings or best practices for thinking about framing agentic flows so that you're not going down a rabbit hole, the best practices that we can share with all our listeners today on getting their agentic strategy right from the beginning.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":65,"time":"21:53","seconds":1313,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"I love to talk about that. So folks, everything that we're seeing out there, are seeing that it's definitely, it's definitely cross vertical. So like there's a lot of internal automation and operations that are like going on. And then you have like sales marketing research and coding. So there's kind of like a, there there's a hell big distribution, but what we're finding is that there is a, there is basically a normal distribution on","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":66,"time":"22:20","seconds":1340,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"the pattern of the use cases. So a lot of them are usually a combination of research analysis, summarization, reporting. Sometimes it's not all of those together. Sometimes it can like mix and match, but those kind of like those work like a charm. So if it's like, Hey, I want to pull data from somewhere from an ERP, from the CRM, from somewhere else. And when I conduct some sort of analysis, I want to have a summarization of sorts, and I want to put off a report, either Jason or whatever it might be so that I can push into another system. Those ones kind of like work pretty well. Then the other thing that people are doing that are kind of working great is this idea of like bringing human the loop when necessary. Like, take this kind of like a use case where we actually want to have human the loop. Like we're already saving a bunch of time on this, but I want to make sure that we get someone in there. I would say that's the other the other thing. And the final thing that I want to mention is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":67,"time":"23:15","seconds":1395,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"the way that you roll out these things in companies. So we had a, we have a great interview that went out last week with the commercial CTO of Gemini from DWC. And that's something that they had to talk like from the ground up, because it's a big company and we are rolling out things like that. People start wondering like, all right, what role this AI agent's playing in here and how do I interact with them? So there's definitely a human component of like the companies that are promoting people to feel like you manage these agents now, and they're too, you're too sad. I can like having more sessions with that than others.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":68,"time":"23:53","seconds":1433,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"I know we are coming up on time, but the one thought that I'd love to end with is for each one of us, highlight what needs to be addressed to make agentic workflows successful. Like what each one of us think is kind of one thing that we would love to have solved in the coming months for agentic workflows to see, you know, the light of date literally across all kinds of use cases.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":69,"time":"24:19","seconds":1459,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"Cheryl, from everything that I have seen, the one thing that I think is a must have for this future of GenTech to live to its full potential is it needs to be fast and simple for companies to view them. There's, there's many other things that I could mention here, like enterprise readiness, security, everything. And like, now all the things are true, but I think being fast and simple is the most important thing","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":70,"time":"24:50","seconds":1490,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"because in the market that's moving so fast, if you say that companies need to spend like five, ten engineers for three months with a product manager at design or to get like something like a POC done that doesn't work. But if you make it that simple and fast to try things and throw things in the wall and see what sticks, then it screws up the economic in a good way.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":71,"time":"25:15","seconds":1515,"speaker":"João Moura","text":"Where now companies can move as fast as the market and then double down on what works. So I would say that would probably be the most important thing from my point of view for the future of agents can like live to its full potential.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":72,"time":"25:29","seconds":1529,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"All right, Bob, you're next. It gets harder for you and me and Brian.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":73,"time":"25:34","seconds":1534,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"I'm going to be a little bit self serving answering this question, but the","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-73","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":74,"time":"25:39","seconds":1539,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"Advivator is super bullish on this concept of generative feedback loops and very soon you can already read about it and I'll share a link in a bit, but the very soon you can play around with it. And it basically means that you can, rather than prompting the model, prompt the database. What you're basically going to say is that, for example, when you create a collection in the database, let me give you the simplest example that you can think of. They say, okay, let's say that you have products in e commerce, you're like every product should be in English, right? American English.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-74","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":75,"time":"26:06","seconds":1566,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"Then if you store something in Spanish, then it just updates that for you. It says like, well, know, and then you can choose as you use, do you want to keep the original content or do an upsert or those kinds of things? But now also think about, for example, data management, right? So we have like, we now work with a data sets like a factory data set and it says like, you know, all temperatures from the oven should be in Celsius.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-75","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":76,"time":"26:29","seconds":1589,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"And then if somebody stores in the Fahrenheit, it just does an upsert and it's just like, well, you know, it's now in Celsius as well. And so you prompt database rather than the model and then you get full CRUD support. So the database can read more from the database. It can update in the database. If you can even delete if you wanted to, and it can create. So that is something we're super, super, super bullish on. And that's just that's in the domain of the database.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-76","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":77,"time":"26:55","seconds":1615,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"So basically if you would be interacting to the stuff, you know, that the folks at that crew or at the structure are building that basically then the database gets smarter. Right. And we call that agentic workflows, right? So the generative feedback loop is a form of an agentic architecture. And that is something I'm extremely bullish about. So very soon more for and also for people to play around with.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-77","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":78,"time":"27:18","seconds":1638,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"That'd be awesome. Can't can't wait to try it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-78","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":79,"time":"27:22","seconds":1642,"speaker":"Brian Raymond","text":"I think just the the pace with those models are improving is still really exciting. You know, rumors are that GPT five is gonna drop in December. Right? And and we're gonna have even more performant and faster multimodal models. I think that's the long pole in the tent here for a lot of this. I think the stuff that Jao is working on is absolutely essential to being able to operationalize this and put this in the hands. But, like, at the end of the day, like, it comes down to to performance, which is what we were talking about earlier. And a lot of the performance rides on","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-79","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":80,"time":"27:52","seconds":1672,"speaker":"Brian Raymond","text":"power and quality of these models, like as we figure out ways to shrink them back down again, that's great. Right? It means that they could proliferate, we could push them to edge devices. But at the end the day, it's like, my mom thinks it's a piece of crap and she doesn't use it. Like she doesn't use Siri. Like we're not there yet. Right? And so I think that we're driving in that direction. I think we're like, it's a shallow trough of dis it was a shallow trough of disillusionment on, on agents from like, for like six months in 2023.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-80","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":81,"time":"28:19","seconds":1699,"speaker":"Brian Raymond","text":"And like, they're kicking ass, but like, I think that we're driving hard towards that reality. And I'm, I'm bullish that in 2025, we're going to start getting there with a higher win rate.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-81","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":82,"time":"28:29","seconds":1709,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Amazing. And I'll, I just add on to that because like, you know, it's great to be able to build agents quickly in a more robust, you know, data driven manner. But in the end, from my perspective, I think we all want to build applications that can make it into production very quickly. And in the spirit of this conference today, I think","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-82","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":83,"time":"28:48","seconds":1728,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"one of the things that I would love to really solve for personally as well as the wonderful team at Galileo is how can we enable not only building agents fast through a better data driven perspective, improving access to more data, but also having the right set of metrics that people can rely on right from the beginning so that you're not building a POC in three months and then you're spending a year trying to productionize that, trying to make it better and useful as you said, Brian, it","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-83","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":84,"time":"29:19","seconds":1759,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"should be robust and useful right from the get go and if you don't have the right signals for the entire agentic chain, because it's even more complex than a simple rag setup, it's going be very hard for us to go from that POC to production stage without the set of observability and metrics. So, you know, our team at Galileo is also innovating and training models and systems on algorithms on what do we call agentic evaluations.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-84","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":85,"time":"29:46","seconds":1786,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"And we had a Atin a talk earlier with Chip and Vivian about this, but we've been thinking hard about this. We have some ideas too. Lots more to come in this space, but I think without the right set of trustworthy metrics that teams can rely on, along with the data infrastructure and an easy way to orchestrate them, these are all the key building blocks here to build the agency.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-85","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":86,"time":"30:09","seconds":1809,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"Yeah, and we now know that the best evil for an agentic framework is Brian's mom, so that's Love very","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-86","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":87,"time":"30:18","seconds":1818,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-87","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":88,"time":"30:18","seconds":1818,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Love it. Amazing. Well, thank you all. This was an amazing chat. You all had fun and I'm sure our listeners and audience as well. And you guys have been super engaging on the chat as well, which is amazing. Thank you all for being here. This is awesome.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-88","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":89,"time":"30:35","seconds":1835,"speaker":"Bob van Luijt","text":"Thanks, Bye bye. Cheers.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-89","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":90,"time":"30:38","seconds":1838,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Thanks, everyone, for tuning in to episode two of Chain of Thought. If you want to check out more sessions from Production Eyes, you can find them at galileo.ai.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-90","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai","episode":2,"guid":"3b7f6f3c-eb54-42a9-8f22-5dbf46da1f67","episodeTitle":"Got Agents? Agentic Workflows & Architecture | Weaviate, Unstructured & CrewAI","publishedAt":"2024-11-13","segmentIndex":91,"time":"30:48","seconds":1848,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"We'll be back next week with predictions about Gen AI in 2025 and much more. If you are enjoying Chain of Thought, leave us a quick rating and review on your podcasting app of choice, or share the show with a friend that you think might enjoy it. Thanks so much, and we'll see you next week.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/2-got-agents-agentic-workflows-and-architecture-weaviate-unstructured-and-crewai/#t-91","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":0,"time":"0:08","seconds":8,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Welcome to episode one of Chain of Thought, everybody. This is the podcast that demystifies AI and positions builders to effectively put GenAI into production. I'm your host and moderator for today's episode, Conor Bronsdon, head of developer awareness for Galileo. For the last several years, you may have heard me previously hosting the Dev Interrupted podcast, so you may recognize my voice. I'm also delighted to be joined today by three expert panelists to talk about the state of AI. And afterwards, we'll be interviewing May Habib, CEO and cofounder of Writer on how enterprises are getting ROI out of AI and much more. But first, we're gonna talk about the state of AI today in November 2024.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-0","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":1,"time":"0:44","seconds":44,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"And joining me for that conversation are the co founders of Galileo, CTO Atindriyo Sanyal, aka Athen, CEO Vikram Chatterji, and COO Yash Sheth. You'll get to know each of as they co host episodes and interview some of the amazing guests we have lined up on Chain of Thought. There's so much more coming for you during the rest of season one, and the season two in January is gonna be incredible. But, gentlemen, episode one, great to have all three of you here. Thanks, Conor.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-1","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":2,"time":"1:07","seconds":67,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Excited to get started.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-2","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":3,"time":"1:09","seconds":69,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I really am excited for this conversation because the three of you have shared so many insights with me as I have joined Galileo and as we've started to talk about the AI space. And a common theme I'm I'm hearing from each of you is the complexity and rapid pace of development in AI today, as I think anyone paying attention to the space sees. To to nobody's surprise, this means that we have some big news items for the past week that I I do wanna highlight. First off, ChatGPT,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-3","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":4,"time":"1:33","seconds":93,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"officially an AI powered search engine, at least in demo form, and it's giving Perplexity a run for its money with its new prelaunch demo. And meanwhile, you know, rival Anthropic Claude can now control your computer. It's already been caught slacking off during a presentation, and, some folks I follow on Twitter are even having it play civilization. Vikram, based on your experience as a founder and as a former AI product leader at Google,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-4","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":5,"time":"1:56","seconds":116,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"what's your take on these developments?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-5","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":6,"time":"1:58","seconds":118,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"First of all, thanks, Conor, for doing this. Super exciting to have this podcast. Well, my honest take on a lot of this stuff is you'll see a lot of news coming out of these startups, especially the ones which have a lot to lose, like Anthropic, OpenAI, which are highly valued, where they wanna be ahead of the news cycle. I feel like a lot of their DNA relies on being the first in the news cycle. And so I think a lot of what you'll see from them is, oh, we're gonna launch this soon and showing","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-6","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":7,"time":"2:28","seconds":148,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"people what is possible. So when I read and see all of this, you can, you know, in my head, I feel like I kind of know that companies like Google and Meta and AWS, they're already probably thinking about this, probably already have a team of 100 people that are working a lot of this. The search piece, right? Like I think OpenAI has packaged that in an interesting way and","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-7","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":8,"time":"2:49","seconds":169,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"the world likes to see a David versus Goliath battle. So that's interesting. Anthropics thing about the computer use, it's interesting, but you know, we already, if you search even a little bit on the, if you search a little bit on Google, you'll hear that Google itself is working on its own computer action model, right? It's called Jarvis. I believe that's the code name. That's what if you just search just a little bit, you'll be able to see that. But, you know, Anthropicana refers to market or perhaps with that. So they went ahead with it. So my take on all of this is I think it's really exciting because it keeps the I think it helps people's imaginations","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-8","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":9,"time":"3:23","seconds":203,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"with thinking about what's possible with AI beyond just chatbots because there's a lot more which you can do with these brains, these operating systems that can think now. But it's not necessarily something that's gonna be, you know, super widely adopted in the next, like, two to five months. Right? They're kind of like multimodal. It came up a long, long time ago, but it's still not primetime yet. But it's really great to see. It gives you a glimpse into where things","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-9","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":10,"time":"3:51","seconds":231,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"can be in maybe one or two years.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-10","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":11,"time":"3:53","seconds":233,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"I also read somewhere that Sundar said that 25% of code at Google is written by AI now, which is insane. Like, you know, we all know how much code Google is built on. That scale is incredible. I mean, these are the wins that like really make the hype kind of real in many ways. While, you know, all these new announcements that we keep seeing, like I've also seen them kind of promote false expectations","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-11","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":12,"time":"4:20","seconds":260,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"amongst leaders, amongst developers as well that, Hey, like this thing can, this model can do X, Y, and Z. I'm going to build an application that can take advantage of that. But then it's oftentimes too early for that technology to mature. And, you know, you get into these bad expectation cycles where you build a POC and, you know, you just can't launch it even a year later.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-12","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":13,"time":"4:47","seconds":287,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. And, Anathen, I I know you've obviously been an engineering leader at Uber and Apple working on different ML and AI systems before. What's your take on this announcement from Google, which they shared during their recent earnings call that, yeah, 25% of Google's code is AI generated today? Like, how is that going to impact","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-13","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":14,"time":"5:05","seconds":305,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"all the different processes that go into enterprise code?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-14","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":15,"time":"5:08","seconds":308,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"I think it only highlights the fact that in the short and medium term, you can use these pieces of technologies as a great efficiency sort of uplifter. So at the very least, it can help you generate better code or write boilerplate code for you. I'm sure if you investigate the 25% of the code, it's likely the code that you know, it's the most obvious code to write, but our developers are likely very lazy to write two for loops, they would just quickly, you know,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-15","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":16,"time":"5:37","seconds":337,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"boilerplate code. And it's really great because you're automating a lot of the grunt work and really focusing on the more nuanced problems. That said, I think there's a lot more to be achieved in the longer run as you start building more complex systems on top of these LMs with agents and tools. Today, you'll see the grunt work get automated, and before you know it, you'll see a lot more advanced things also get automated. So I'm very optimistic and bullish on this.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-16","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":17,"time":"6:03","seconds":363,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Yeah. To your point, I know,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-17","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":18,"time":"6:07","seconds":367,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Andy Jassy over at Amazon has talked about how they saved forty five hundred developer years of work on code upgrades from Java 11 to Java 17, that stuff that most engineers don't wanna spend a ton of time doing. So that that's certainly an area of opportunity right now for AI. I think you and Yosh are both alluding to that on efficiency on these, coding opportunities.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-18","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":19,"time":"6:27","seconds":387,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"But I also know that while you've both found, you know, what the well known players like OpenAI and Anthropic are doing, we're not thinking as much about the open source ecosystem.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-19","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":20,"time":"6:38","seconds":398,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"What do you think the media might be missing on the open source side of things?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-20","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":21,"time":"6:40","seconds":400,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Yes, ma'am. I'd love to hear from my cofounders as well. My personal take is that open source is very overlooked right now just given the amount of hype that's there on the proprietary side of things, but there's tons of innovation happening on the open source side of things, especially given a lot of the benchmarks that you measure and test these models on. You've seen Lama's latest 3.1,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-21","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":22,"time":"7:05","seconds":425,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"3.2 models outperform a ChatGPT four point zero on many of the benchmarks, and it only shows how the cost of intelligence has come down to the point where you can literally take these models, run them on your laptop. And more, I think the most powerful thing about open source is that these the weights of these models are open and you can fine tune them and can do a lot more. The degrees of freedom to which you can operate the open source models is a lot more than, say,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-22","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":23,"time":"7:32","seconds":452,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"OpenAI giving a fine tuned API. And the large businesses will always sort of work on any kind of innovation that's more catered to their business as opposed to the open source models are just free ingredients and you can do whatever you want, in the long run, you'll see a lot more innovation happen on the open source front compared to proprietary.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-23","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":24,"time":"7:52","seconds":472,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Vikram, what's your take on Yeah. Agree. I mean, I do think there's a place in the world for both. Obviously, not saying like open source is everything and closed source should just go away completely. I feel like they both have their own place in the world because, I mean, they're both at the end of the day, I think of them as distribution","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-24","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":25,"time":"8:08","seconds":488,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"channels. Right? It's open source is oftentimes not just for like, especially when it's led by a for profit enterprise. Open source is never a means to just do good for the world. It's actually a lead generation mechanism, Right? That's why Meta is doing it. It's for brand awareness. It's not for, you know, for the betterment of society. It's mostly because they have to play and they were lagging the walls. They made it open source so that people start showing them some love. And that's happening. People are loving it and they're kind of riding that riding that wave.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-25","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":26,"time":"8:40","seconds":520,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"That being said, I feel like because at Google, we kinda saw this firsthand with BERT, where Google in general is not very good at monetization of their products. Right? Google is generally good at building great products and giving it away for free, and that's what happens with BERT. And what we didn't see as a result of that was a massive amount of investment in making BERT bigger and bigger, faster and faster,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-26","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":27,"time":"9:03","seconds":543,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Which OpenAI has done, more weights, more almost like more parameters and larger context windows. And now all of a sudden, they kind of won that language model war, at least the beginning of it. But as of now, what we see with larger models and this this investment almost solely by meta for the most part in open source so far, which is scary, which there should be other players coming in as well on the open source side to match them and give them a run for their money. But what happens as a result of that is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-27","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":28,"time":"9:31","seconds":571,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"is there's a massive proliferation of AI apps that are built out on opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of the developers, right? You have developers in a garage who maybe know something about accounting and they'll build an AI accounting application very quickly with this open source model. And then you have these enterprises where name your large Fortune 50 bank and they can't use OpenAI. They can't have the data go to a different service. So they want to be able to fine tune that model. So it's on both sides, it has massive advantages.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-28","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":29,"time":"10:01","seconds":601,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"From where, at least V said, V personally, the big thing is like, how can we get to the point where we remove all obstacles from the way towards building AI apps? Obviously, Galileo is in the business of removing trust as an obstacle, but there is also cost and there's also latency. And I think open source goes a long way for that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-29","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":30,"time":"10:19","seconds":619,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Josh, you obviously led AI engineering teams at Google. Do you think that AI engineering teams today are","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-30","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":31,"time":"10:28","seconds":628,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"experiencing","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-31","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":32,"time":"10:29","seconds":629,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"cost as a real measure for them right now? Or do you see it on different areas?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-32","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":33,"time":"10:32","seconds":632,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Yeah. I mean, think there's, to the the open source point that that Vikramanathan made as as well. Right? That that by meta training these open source models and investing millions, if not hundreds of millions of dollars in this, it is actually making it possible for application teams, for engineering teams build on top of those and almost like removing cost as a big factor. The biggest cost factor there","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-33","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":34,"time":"10:59","seconds":659,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"for having any proprietary language model is the training and data gathering piece. Once you commoditize that, which Meta has done a tremendous job in doing that, every team, you know, in a bank, in a healthcare organization, in the defense industry, in the financial world, every team can now build proprietary AI using that, which is, you know, I think more from a distribute, like, you know, not only just a distribution mechanism for Meta, I believe that it's truly","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-34","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":35,"time":"11:34","seconds":694,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"furthering the adoption of AI massively. If we were just in the proprietary world today, a lot of these businesses, a lot of these applications wouldn't have been able to adopt AI at the same rate at which they are today. So now cost being, you know, pretty much eliminated from that perspective, from the adoption perspective, there is definitely a scaling factor to that cost when you're trying to deploy these models","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-35","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":36,"time":"12:05","seconds":725,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"and run them efficiently. But that's, I think, a good problem to have. If a team is getting millions of requests per day for their AI application, it is definitely worth investing more in that. That aside, I think one of the big obstacles for the biggest obstacle, you know, cost aside, not having a trust layer in their applications. Like even when, you know,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-36","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":37,"time":"12:30","seconds":750,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"even with my teams at Google, like, you know, one of the biggest bottlenecks in productionizing new applications, new models, new features was not having a deterministic process to almost have a guarantee that this application will not screw up in production to damage our reputation, to damage, to erode on user trust. And every team building an AI application","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-37","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":38,"time":"12:57","seconds":777,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"does not want to erode their users' trust. For that, trust is an absolute essential ingredient of their AI stack. We have this today with software already, right? I think everyone resonates with this by now is software can deploy, can be deployed on, you know, same day if you wanted to because of an inherent trust layer, the rich IDEs, the CICD pipelines and the monitoring and tracing abilities in production, as well as firewalls","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-38","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":39,"time":"13:27","seconds":807,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"for cybersecurity, make it such that software can be deployed in a safe, trustworthy manner and do that very effectively. With AI, you know, it feels like we're back in the stone ages of the SDLC where it's extremely manual. It's, we don't have a clear cut process. We don't know what to measure. And that's where a trust layer in the AI powered software world is absolutely critical.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-39","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":40,"time":"13:53","seconds":833,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Harping on the importance of evaluation and observability and how we are sort of even with the MLOps revolution that happened in 2017 and we kind of hit ground zero back again when the ChatGPT moment happened and kind of went back to caveman tools of eyeballing and vibe checks and that was the case maybe ten, fifteen years ago with traditional ML and then we spent so many years getting to some degree of explainability around the smaller models and the ground got swept off our feet. So we're back to ground zero, which is where a lot of the innovation that we ourselves are doing at Galileo is kind of just setting the foundations of how you build","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-40","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":41,"time":"14:36","seconds":876,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"a trust layer and evaluations layer to make sure these systems are a little more deterministic or at the very least you're able to sort of pinpoint why a certain thing was said by a complex AI system when they said it. But it's only scratching the surface and there's a lot to be a lot of more innovation on the evaluation front to be had in the coming years.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-41","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":42,"time":"15:01","seconds":901,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Absolutely. With how rapidly AI is evolving, I mean, look at agents. Right? Like, a year ago, we were barely talking about agents, and now they're seemingly everywhere. There's so much money flowing into the space. There's so much talent here that is rapidly changing the technology. And it can be really easy to get caught up in the hype versus actually getting real ROI from effectively putting, hey, applications into production, which, hey, maybe Google's doing that with that 25%","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-42","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":43,"time":"15:24","seconds":924,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"of their code now being written by AI. And I know that's part of why the three of you just raised your $45,000,000 series B. There's this real need for this trust layer. Vikram, I've heard you talk about how enterprises need to mature their systems with regard to AI and establish this trust layer. And this phrase evaluation intelligence has started to become something that is being in the lexicon","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-43","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":44,"time":"15:47","seconds":947,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"here. How would you kind of explain to the audience how this can solve this trust layer challenge that Yash and Nathal and you are all referencing?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-44","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":45,"time":"15:55","seconds":955,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"I mean, I- I think first of all, like when you think about AI in the enterprise and in general AI adoption across different use cases, across different kinds of workflows to just make people's lives easier, we're all in the very, very first innings. Right? And I think in general, as humans, we all have a tendency that as soon as we see a bright and shiny object, we try to put that everywhere all at the same time and hope for that to be the silver bullet that's gonna solve all of our bores.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-45","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":46,"time":"16:22","seconds":982,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Not gonna happen. And so I think that's what's led to, like, a little bit of this question mark around, like, what's the ROI of AI? It makes for great headlines. I think it helps when people dampening the mood a little bit more. I think that's the right question to ask in enterprise AI right now for very basic use cases that are coming about. And sure, there's a here and now, which I can talk about, right? Past is important.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-46","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":47,"time":"16:44","seconds":1004,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"But, you know, we studied the companies three and a half years ago with the idea that language models will get bigger and then when they get bigger, then, you know, there is going be this big challenge. And so we've always taken this very long term view about stuff. And when we think of this right now, again, like if you really draw this out and see where things are gonna be maybe a couple of years from now, what's gonna happen is these models are","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-47","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":48,"time":"17:07","seconds":1027,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"essentially thinking tools by themselves. Right? And you can apply this in different places. Right? Now you're applying them in basic software and helping getting better answers to the word, better search. That's very basic. Next step, like press a button and the model is going to press a different button for you. That's an agent going to do some action. That's great. Now we're also starting to see like AI at the edge just about take over and AI and robotics kind of becoming just about a thing on the horizon.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-48","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":49,"time":"17:33","seconds":1053,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Like, and you'd see like three, four or five years from now, right? It's basically a brain that you can put into a system to make it do things. So like, you have an intelligent dishwasher. You have an intelligent refrigerator. Like, all of that is gonna be powered by AI, right? Now, when it's everywhere, trust becomes extremely important. You know, it's and this is not like the world of Terminator or something like that. It's just more like it just shouldn't malfunction. It shouldn't do things which","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-49","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":50,"time":"18:00","seconds":1080,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"not coded to do. So it's very similar to how in software engineering, how you would always put like some basic checks and balances, right? You would always have some level of checking, like have a kill switch, let's say, or be able to be able to check for what's going on in the system at all points in time and where things can go wrong. And if there are, then you can have like a, you can have a flag that is set for that. So we've done these things before in software engineering and it's similar with this new form of AI application development, right, where if things go wrong in their system, you've got to be able to lay that out before it goes wrong, right, in the building stage. What does that mean? What are the tools you need for that? What's the mindset that you need to have to be able to create that workflow for yourself before you even launch anything? That's where software engineering for AI application development is at right now. That's basically needs","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-50","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":51,"time":"18:49","seconds":1129,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"a workflow, but it also needs a set of tools to do that. And that's where collectively you can solve that trust problem and then take that at scale to see where this goes. So I feel like this trust issue is just becoming a very critical need in the AI application development workflow. But as AI becomes more pervasive and as we move towards your your dishwasher using using AI,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-51","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":52,"time":"19:13","seconds":1153,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"and while making this up, there was actually a company that was funded recently to help you do that $400,000,000 for physical intelligence. So Okay.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-52","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":53,"time":"19:20","seconds":1160,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Was gonna ask, like, what are we doing with the dishwasher and anything? So I'm glad you brought it.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-53","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":54,"time":"19:23","seconds":1163,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"That's actually I was just talking to some friends over the weekend, and they were saying the same thing. Like, ah, you know, like, this is it's nice that I can chat with my app about the weather now instead of just looking up the weather in Google search. But is that ROI for AI? Like what I really want is for it to do my dishes and for it to do my laundry. And that's kind of basically what AI and robotics means. Right? So that's getting funded a lot more now. So that's, and that's what's coming, right? And that's what Galileo has been built for. It's not just for the here and now of today for","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-54","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":55,"time":"19:54","seconds":1194,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"like you to be able to build smarter chatbots. It's for you to be able to build a world that's, which is ubiquitous AI everywhere. We help make sure that that's going to be safe and secure and trustworthy. So that's how we perceive the world of AI. That's where we're here for the next like ten, twenty years to see that coming along. But we're very much in the first innings and we're already seeing this huge need for moving away from humans and Yashatan and I have seen this and painfully being a part of this human evaluation flow where labeling companies throw humans at the problem and just make a fortune out of it. They're the bane of everyone's existence, seriously. And we hated labeling companies. We still do. Software engineers don't like that.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-55","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":56,"time":"20:34","seconds":1234,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"And that's the reason Galileo started. It's like, how do we get away from this? How do we automate this? And thankfully, as soon as LLMs became a thing, everyone was like, Hoorah, we don't have to label things as much again. Very few people are fine tuning LLMs as a result of that. But, you know, at the same time, it does mean still we are stuck with the world of vibe checks and figuring out whether things We can figure out where things are going wrong. And","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-56","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":57,"time":"20:54","seconds":1254,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"that's one of the biggest bottlenecks right now for launching anything because no one can be sure. And what are you gonna do in production? You're gonna check every single one of those million queries that are coming in? You just can't. So that's actually a really big problem, which I feel like people aren't really talking about as much.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-57","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":58,"time":"21:07","seconds":1267,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"And the other side of that coin is actually like, you know, while we,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-58","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":59,"time":"21:12","seconds":1272,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"my teams at Google were faced by, you know, large amounts of like huge delays because of large amounts of annotation needs. And that's the truth even today. At one point, I think OpenAI threw out a stat that it takes them like fourteen months to, you know, release the next version of GPD. And where is that going? Where's the time going? 90% of the time I can","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-59","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":60,"time":"21:38","seconds":1298,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"put money on it and say that 90% of the time is going in human evaluation, human annotation and evaluation. They have all the GPUs in the world and it's not like they're waiting on GPUs to train the next model. It's on collecting and annotating and evaluating the data. To that note itself, right, like in order to make AI machine critical, there are two things that still need to be in place.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-60","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":61,"time":"22:01","seconds":1321,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"One is the involvement of humans is still critical to this workflow. Like, you you can't just remove subject matter experts that actually shape these models in some ways. So human input is gonna be necessary while algorithms should take human input and help scale human activity to that level. So I think, you know, one of our customers, like we had an executive briefing and one of the executives rightfully","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-61","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":62,"time":"22:32","seconds":1352,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"said that while in the traditional machine learning world, the rigor, the effort was going into training models, fine tuning models, collecting the data there. Now these models are just general purpose and we want them to be general purpose. Hallucination is not necessarily a bad thing, but now the trigger has to be in that evaluation and setting up the trust layer","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-62","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":63,"time":"22:55","seconds":1375,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"for the AI systems. That's where the shift has gone from, know, Atin talked about the whole, like the maturity in the ML OX lifecycle. We got to bring that maturity to the trust layer in the Gini stack.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-63","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":64,"time":"23:09","seconds":1389,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Yeah, totally. I'll also add that the importance of human evals. I think one example of that is the reason why GPD 3.5 and that family of models is step function better than the earlier versions of GPD","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-64","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":65,"time":"23:25","seconds":1405,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"was because of newer elements which were added to the end to end training stack of these foundation models, including RLHF, where you use human feedback as reward signal. And RLHF and just data quality were the two sort of biggest driving factors in kind of creating the chat GPT moment. Like, without these two, this moment would not have happened and GPT three dot five would be maybe marginally or sublinearly better than GPT three. And these generative models weren't as great before.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-65","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":66,"time":"23:56","seconds":1436,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"So applying the same practices to evaluation, I think one thing that we think deeply about at Galileo is how to sort of scale this human feedback involvement. To Yash's point, to scale this manual feedback, you need this human feedback pipeline baked into the platform and we apply those principles, the same RLHF esque principles to evaluation where we offer certain metrics which allow you to quantify","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-66","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":67,"time":"24:25","seconds":1465,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"errors in your inputs and outputs but you can only create a certain baseline level of accuracy And then it comes down to the nuances of the data and the nuances of the feedback that you receive. So the problem now becomes how you bake this pipeline into the workflow so that these evaluation metrics evolve with your system and evolve with your data.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-67","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":68,"time":"24:44","seconds":1484,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"I think what you're also seeing, Conor, is everything that Yashnad and also talking about. If you talk to a data scientist about the stuff, right, like you look at your data, give it feedback, iterate constantly, those are data science workflows, which but if you look at the people who are now starting to build out these AI applications, they're software engineers. So a lot of what's also is","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-68","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":69,"time":"25:05","seconds":1505,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"this shift in workflows where software engineers need to adopt data science principles in order to build better applications. And what we're seeing across our customers is they're mostly the ones who are more mature in that life cycle where they realize this, where they realize that they can't just slap together a model and some queries, and then it's gonna give a bit great answer, but it's very nuanced. It's an entire system they have to bring in place, and they have to iterate on that. And it's a lot about how do you bring these data science, the best practices from data science","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-69","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":70,"time":"25:36","seconds":1536,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"towards software engineering. That's gonna lead. Those are the organizations that do that successfully with the right tools and the right workflows in place that are actually gonna succeed in productionizing safe and trustworthy AI applications at scale. The rest of them are gonna have a harder time because they're just not following those principles.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-70","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":71,"time":"25:54","seconds":1554,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"Speaking of trust, we're recording this the night before the US presidential election, and regulation around AI is obviously a key topic that's come up in 2024. How do the three of you see regulation affecting the industry as we move forward regardless of of whoever wins tomorrow?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-71","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":72,"time":"26:12","seconds":1572,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"I can I can take a stab really quick? And, you know, Atin, Vikram, please, add your thoughts as well. This is, you know, right before the election. As we talked about trust, right, Nick, as we also talked about how agents are becoming important and how, you know, the critical fabric of the world is going to be like imbibed with AI. For example, at Galileo, you know, we've been working with financial services, telecom companies, retail, healthcare.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-72","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":73,"time":"26:38","seconds":1598,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"All of these are critical infrastructure for our nation. And as AI starts automating or augmenting all of these workflows, these critical workflows, we basically can't afford to have mishaps happen at that scale because that can have a direct implication on society, let alone like a fancy chatbot that gives me fancy answers. As we head in that direction, which we clearly are, regulations are going to be paramount.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-73","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":74,"time":"27:08","seconds":1628,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"You know, we know from the executive order, from Biden, you know, then we talked about SMEs being part of the critical workflow here, even on the security side, on regulating AI, the necessity for red teams is going to be key. The necessity for monitoring key aspects of AI powered software are going to be key and we're seeing that across all of the regulations and the theme, the common theme at least, is that we must have the right","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-74","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":75,"time":"27:38","seconds":1658,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"explainability and visibility into these AI systems. And, you know, while there is a contention on who should be regulated, whether it's the foundation model providers or the application teams leveraging AI in their end user applications itself. I think everyone aligns on the fact that the trust layer is still going to play an important role. Now, if the Democrats win, we already have a flavor","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-75","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":76,"time":"28:05","seconds":1685,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"through the executive order. We also know that there'll be some AI bills coming out very soon and if the Republicans win, they've not, you know, again, there's been a lot of concepts and not clear plans around AI yet, but one thing we've seen from the campaign as well is that, you know, the AI regulations, the Republicans are low on regulations in general and, you know, they will be more open ended towards that, But in","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-76","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":77,"time":"28:36","seconds":1716,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"either ways, everyone has aligned on at least here's one bipartisan alignment at least on the need for regulation at least. Atid?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-77","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":78,"time":"28:44","seconds":1724,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"Yeah, agnostic to who wins or loses, I think we've seen is that number one, the jury is still out on, I guess, a cohesive understanding of where the regulation needs to be, whether it's at the foundation model layer or at the application layer, like Yash said. But also there seems to be a bit of a fragmentation","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-78","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":79,"time":"29:05","seconds":1745,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"per my understanding at the state level versus at the federal level on whether there should be curbs and guardrails around the big companies who are training these models and the data that's going into the foundation layer versus should the guardrails be at the output layer which seems to be more of a federal take apparently that the output shouldn't be biased?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-79","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":80,"time":"29:27","seconds":1767,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"But irrespective of where, you know, the buck sort of falls in the coming months and years, like Yash said, I think the the need for guardrailing will be important both at the foundations model layer, which are being trained by these super large companies costing hundreds of millions of dollars and that technology emanates outward at the application layer where smaller players are building on top of, what we'll see is this proliferation","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-80","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":81,"time":"29:55","seconds":1795,"speaker":"Atindriyo Sanyal","text":"of applications and kind of almost like a rapid spread of this technology across the country and across the globe eventually. And there will be some form of guardrailing needed at each layer to make sort of faithful, safe applications.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-81","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":82,"time":"30:10","seconds":1810,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"This feels like a an opportunity for us to have a a further in-depth discussion. We're gonna definitely do an episode on this later this year. Any other thoughts you guys wanna add around this?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-82","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":83,"time":"30:19","seconds":1819,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"Yeah. Just one last thing is at a very, very macro level, it is interesting that AI is just getting regulated this way, right? Because software engineering was never regulated this way in our careers, a couple of decades. So the fact that it is getting regulated at the state and the federal level is, this is again tantamount to the fact that it is a really powerful technology. Everyone accepts that. But again, a Rust perspective, when we think about this, the reason we've been doubting this word so often is because that means not just","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-83","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":84,"time":"30:49","seconds":1849,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"accuracy and, data privacy, but it's also a lot of to do with the fact that can you even ship a product in the state of California, which uses AI such that it is adhering to all of the laws of the land, right? That becomes really, really important. And if you look at the last couple of years, again, 2023, there were just 25 AI related regulations. But by March 2024,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-84","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":85,"time":"31:12","seconds":1872,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"there were 82 AI policies. And by the end of the year, now they're over closer to 100. When it comes to these, the different kinds of bills that are being passed around this, there are six sixteen bills across the 45 states and there are another 108 congressional bills around AI. So the flurry of bills and the number of AI regulations that are coming are going to be crazy. So it's all coming. It's going to become really hard for","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-85","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":86,"time":"31:37","seconds":1897,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"the software engineer at a company to ship their product because they allow you to adhere to all of these rules and laws. That's another reason. That's another big part of trust because at the end of the day, the government is there to have checks and balances on any kind of technology that can go off the rails. And so there again, this need for, to Atin and Josh's point around, like guardrails.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-86","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":87,"time":"31:57","seconds":1917,"speaker":"Vikram Chatterji","text":"This isn't just for hallucinations. It's not just for data privacy. It's also for compliance, regulatory, and you have to make it easier for developers to ship while it's also necessary to have these regulatory guardrails in place.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-87","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":88,"time":"32:09","seconds":1929,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Just one last take on what my opinion is of where we should be in terms of guardrails, right? Like, there's been a lot of debate here on whether we should have guardrails around foundation models and that will greatly","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-88","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":89,"time":"32:24","seconds":1944,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"stifle innovation from what I'm seeing. Today, these foundation models, you know, the application developers can leverage them in any way they seem fit. If we add card reads to what these large language models can support and the way they behave, it can drastically reduce the number of use cases that we can apply them for. And, you know, that's definitely not what we want to see. While the foundation model companies and teams should,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-89","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":90,"time":"32:54","seconds":1974,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"you know, should ideally expose what data is going into those models to make sure that there's no harmful content or biased content that the models are learning from, but don't restrict these models upfront, have those guardrails at the application layer so that if I'm building an application that supports the healthcare industry, I, as a developer, can adhere to those guidelines","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-90","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":91,"time":"33:18","seconds":1998,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"for my application. So that's that's where my hope is the regulation lands.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-91","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":92,"time":"33:25","seconds":2005,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"I love that you're all thinking about this, and hopefully, we'll have a great regulatory regime that will get figured out here over the next couple of years. Great conversation, guys. Really appreciate you all coming on in queue. And speaking of companies that are successfully productionizing Gen AI, we have to give credit to Writer. They are one of the companies that is doing a fantastic job working with enterprises,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-92","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":93,"time":"33:45","seconds":2025,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"to solve their challenges with AI. And we were delighted to have their cofounder and CEO, May Habib, join us for Productionize two point o, our wonderful online conference earlier this week, alongside luminaries from NVIDIA, Databricks, Twilio, HP, Cohere, Weviate, and many more. If you want to check those out, you can find them on galileo.ai. You can go watch all those sessions. And Yash sat down with May for an extended conversation on how Writer has found success.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-93","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":94,"time":"34:10","seconds":2050,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"We hope you enjoy their conversation. And if you've enjoyed this episode, please take a brief moment. Before the interview, just rate and review the podcast in your podcasting app of choice. Spotify, Apple Podcasts, if you're on YouTube, hit that subscribe and like button. This all helps. Engaging with the show, subscribing, sharing with your friends, and especially via reviews provides crucial signals that help our episodes get discovered by our listeners. And since we're just starting out, we especially need the help. Alright. Without further ado, we hope you enjoy this interview with writers May Habib.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-94","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":95,"time":"34:41","seconds":2081,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Hi, May. How are you doing?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-95","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":96,"time":"34:42","seconds":2082,"speaker":"May Habib","text":"I'm good, Yash. How are you doing?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-96","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":97,"time":"34:44","seconds":2084,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Good. Thanks for joining us today. Lovely to have you here.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-97","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":98,"time":"34:47","seconds":2087,"speaker":"May Habib","text":"Thanks for having me.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-98","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":99,"time":"34:49","seconds":2089,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"It's been an exciting day so far with some very interesting chats and love to share some of the learnings at Rytr as well. I know Rytr is doing a tremendous job with applying generative AI and coming up with technology","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-99","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":100,"time":"35:03","seconds":2103,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"that actually solves real world problems for the enterprise and so I'd love to kick off our discussion with the fact that we see so much variability in the enterprise in terms of use cases. How does Writer engage with enterprises today in terms of delivering the value across so many different use cases?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-100","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":101,"time":"35:21","seconds":2121,"speaker":"May Habib","text":"Yeah, totally. Especially in large enterprise, right, it can really feel like","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-101","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":102,"time":"35:27","seconds":2127,"speaker":"May Habib","text":"the use cases are all so different and and and all require custom builds. The way we square the the circle is as as follows. So for folks who don't know us, we are a full stack generative AI platform. So think of us as no code, low code for building generative AI apps and workflows. So as as Yash intimated, use cases are the lifeblood, right, of of how we build.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-102","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":103,"time":"35:51","seconds":2151,"speaker":"May Habib","text":"And what we do is really take to the enterprise this dual approach where for mission critical use cases, think of this as killer apps industry by industry, even sub vertical by sub vertical within these industries. These mission critical apps, think of them as almost pre fine tuned in Writer, prebuilt with our components. And our components of the full stack platform","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-103","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":104,"time":"36:18","seconds":2178,"speaker":"May Habib","text":"are LLMs, built in RAG, and guardrails. And then what we do is those same building blocks, we put in an AI studio so that the organization's own data scientists, PMs, AI builders, we call them AI builders because it's a really a range of tech technology skill sets, right, that can contribute. They can build these use cases themselves. And so it is both almost like a build, operate transfer","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-104","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":105,"time":"36:49","seconds":2209,"speaker":"May Habib","text":"on the biggest, most mission critical use cases. And then this toolkit that's very easy to use across the business that we roll out and train people and certify people on.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-105","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":106,"time":"37:05","seconds":2225,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"And, you know, having a purview into so many different use cases and verticals, you know, where do you all see Jet AI making the biggest impact?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-106","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":107,"time":"37:16","seconds":2236,"speaker":"May Habib","text":"Yeah. Wow. I mean, where do we start? In financial services,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-107","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":108,"time":"37:23","seconds":2243,"speaker":"May Habib","text":"there have just been incredible use cases. Bankers that are using Writer to generate drafts of s ones, analyze earnings, build pitch books. So I started my career as a junior investment banker, and and the job really can be very, very different. In capital markets and in hedge funds, similarly, being able to build knowledge assistance that quickly answer questions on industry news, trends,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-108","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":109,"time":"37:51","seconds":2271,"speaker":"May Habib","text":"company deep dives, investment details, being able to write IC memos. So anything that is related to, you know, insights and both the the the short form and the long form of of going deep on big meaty topics and companies' information. Writer is just really doing some mission critical work in financial services. In insurance, claim adjudication is a huge industry for us, or set of use cases for us within the insurance industry. That's those big kind of $100,000","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-109","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":110,"time":"38:27","seconds":2307,"speaker":"May Habib","text":"plus claims where the initial kind of automated passes don't get into all of the details. So we work again to support only, this is important for us, human decision makers, but are able to give them really quick answers to questions and kind of initial readouts of evidence, for example, in various claims and kind of electronic health records, etcetera. So in financial services insurance, healthcare,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-110","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":111,"time":"39:01","seconds":2341,"speaker":"May Habib","text":"incredible complexity and requirement for high accuracy. And so the full stack approach where you really need to build a compound AI system around the LLM to get the results, we really flourish in those kinds of use cases.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-111","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":112,"time":"39:15","seconds":2355,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Amazing. Yeah, and I'm sure, like, you know, on the marketing and on the creative side as well, the generative use cases are pretty phenomenal. We've heard","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-112","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":113,"time":"39:28","seconds":2368,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"some great things about the Writer platform from many of our enterprise customers as well, so congratulations on the success so far and it's great to learn from you and you and I have one thing in common, least we both started as junior investment bankers in our career, so I can at least relate to that pitch books and comms and slides that we had to prepare for every single deal.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-113","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":114,"time":"39:56","seconds":2396,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"In terms of you know, what's driving the Jennie Adoption and seeing writer success in this space, like, what's the secret sauce? What's the recipe?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-114","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":115,"time":"40:02","seconds":2402,"speaker":"May Habib","text":"Yeah, so let me answer technically, and then from a go to market perspective. On the technical side, it's two things. Number one is really complex engineering efforts we've abstracted for the customer. So our rag is zero engineering rag. Right? The customer doesn't need to preprocess their data.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-115","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":116,"time":"40:23","seconds":2423,"speaker":"May Habib","text":"We're the ones who are doing that for them automatically. Right? The word rag actually appears nowhere in the product, right, and in the platform. And certainly, you know, there are a ton of tie ins to the API so that folks who need to scale and send, you know, 3,500 contracts to Writer are able to use the API. But in UI, we have made it so that folks are connecting data and data repos, and all of the data processing for Rag we're doing under the hood. So we do the same thing for AI guardrails. It's not just simple","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-116","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":117,"time":"40:56","seconds":2456,"speaker":"May Habib","text":"kind of naive rejects, right, for guardrails. We are using LLMs to build these guardrails in a really high trust way. And all of that, again, is abstracted for the customer. So it's a huge part of our secret sauce because when we say full stack platform, folks can go to a hyperscaler's website and be like, well, that looks like full stack to me too. Right? They've got LLMs. They've got RAG. They've got guardrails.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-117","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":118,"time":"41:21","seconds":2481,"speaker":"May Habib","text":"With Writer, every layer talks to each other. Right? Every layer is preconnected. You don't need as much engineering. And so especially as the LLMs get more and more powerful, ours and others, the gulf between, like, like, flat out DIY versus what you can get with with Writer, that gulf only increases. The second big technical reason for for the success is the domain specific","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-118","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":119,"time":"41:48","seconds":2508,"speaker":"May Habib","text":"models are are really close to the use cases vertical by vertical. And so the customer doesn't need to fine tune to get the kind of accuracy. Right? In AI Studio, we're able to break down a use case and really capture the business logic that needs to go into the model, but we're able to do that in a way that pairs kind of parts of the logic with examples. And it's examples versus","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-119","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":120,"time":"42:16","seconds":2536,"speaker":"May Habib","text":"data that really makes the big difference. And it's a quantitative measure. Right? Like, to fine tune and fine tune appropriately, you need a lot more data than examples need. Right? And because the domain specific models, be that our financial services model versus our customer support model versus our creative model for marketing versus our medical model. Right? All of those are","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-120","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":121,"time":"42:44","seconds":2564,"speaker":"May Habib","text":"preconfigured, think of it that way, for the types of use cases folks want to do. And you can mix any of our model families within a single use case. So we've really abstracted away a lot of the complexity, you know, even down to the model level.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-121","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":122,"time":"43:00","seconds":2580,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"That's awesome. So like, what I hear is like vertical integration and like capturing the business value and minimizing the data required to get","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-122","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":123,"time":"43:09","seconds":2589,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"started, to get set up, has been kind of the key drivers here as well. How do you see, when you say like, you know, verticalization in the product as well, just a follow-up to that is, when, let's say, on financial services, you talked about a few use cases. Are there typically cases, like, pretty much every generative AI case that you would cover? Are there any challenges in productionizing some use cases versus others?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-123","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":124,"time":"43:35","seconds":2615,"speaker":"May Habib","text":"Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the use cases where a customer is not aligned on what good looks like. Right? When we say we align to business logic, folks need to agree on what that logic is, and especially for the data that's in people's minds, right, and the subject matter kind of experts' brains, you know, there's quite a bit of work to align on how you're going to do something if you're going to now trust AI to do that thing.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-124","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":125,"time":"44:04","seconds":2644,"speaker":"May Habib","text":"So there is just, you know, a ton of use cases in the realm of curation or taste required. Right? A lot of marketing use cases fall in that bucket. You know, what is our brand voice? What does good look like? Where, you know, the complexity is is less, you know, can AI do it? Right? And it's more, you know, have we agreed on the the how? And then in, you know, where where we do find","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-125","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":126,"time":"44:30","seconds":2670,"speaker":"May Habib","text":"that, you know, it's the next step function change in LLMs that is required is around, you know, function calling and tool use, right? The use of tools in parallel, the use of tools and being able to assure and ensure that what you are moving from system to system is high quality. Right? You're not just moving, like, garbage from one place to another. There's still a lot of work that needs to be done at the model layer, right, to get to the nirvana of AgenTik that folks are","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-126","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":127,"time":"45:02","seconds":2702,"speaker":"May Habib","text":"excited about.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-127","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":128,"time":"45:03","seconds":2703,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"Amazing. Yeah. And I think, in favor of productionization, I'd love to, I guess, pick your brain on like, is there a best practice that has led to writer productionizing so many use cases with so many enterprise customers? You mentioned expectation setting and like, what is the expected behavior from a business logic perspective and then realizing that in production almost reliably and in a trustworthy manner there as well. Any best practices that you've seen, like this is what we advise,","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-128","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":129,"time":"45:37","seconds":2737,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"you know, our end users to almost adapt?","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-129","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":130,"time":"45:39","seconds":2739,"speaker":"May Habib","text":"Yeah, totally. You know, we'll go in and ask for two things, right? Number one, a recognition that AI is a team sport, right? If we are brought in by IT versus line of business, right, we are really insistent on being close to the the business and not building science projects that, you know, aren't necessarily connected to to reality.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-130","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":131,"time":"46:01","seconds":2761,"speaker":"May Habib","text":"The second thing that we really insist on is dedicated generative AI experts. We will make them experts, but the folks that, like, end up owning this internally have to be dedicated to the the program. And a range of technology skill sets is is excellent. Folks who really get the tech, they don't necessarily have to be engineers, but understand how the engineers are getting these outcomes. We don't want AI to be magic inside of a company. We need it to be just software that people really understand. So once we have those two things, you can really get get down to work. And then in terms of just the nuts and bolts of of how we go about it, it's a very focused effort to get to accuracy.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-131","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":132,"time":"46:45","seconds":2805,"speaker":"May Habib","text":"And it's everything from, you know, us having our own QA teams. Right? I think we're probably the only generative AI company that employs, you know, QA people with PhDs that make sure that these applications are excellent and that we're building the evals even if the customer doesn't have them. Because it is really important to be able to take a v one to the business user that's really excellent. Right? Like, we have kind of passed the era where you could take a prototype","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-132","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":133,"time":"47:15","seconds":2835,"speaker":"May Habib","text":"as a technologist, you know, to to the end user. So and we're almost now exclusively working with the IT teams, internal generative AI teams, to build for their business. And so it's a very high bar for ourselves for what we what we take to the business.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-133","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":134,"time":"47:28","seconds":2848,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"This has been awesome. Thank you so much, May, for for coming on board, sharing so many on the ground learnings","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-134","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":135,"time":"47:36","seconds":2856,"speaker":"Yash Sheth","text":"that make enterprise general AI applications successful today, so glad to have you here again and wishing Writer all the best.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-135","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":136,"time":"47:43","seconds":2863,"speaker":"May Habib","text":"Thank you so much, Yash. Lots to come. I'm May at Writer, anybody who wants to reach out, we're hiring for every position you could imagine. Lots of technical architects, both pre and post sales. So if you're excited to work on these complex","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-136","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":137,"time":"47:59","seconds":2879,"speaker":"May Habib","text":"applications and rollouts, definitely get in touch. The enterprise needs you. Thank you, Kash. Talk soon, everybody. Thanks, Minh. Thanks. Bye.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-137","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}
{"schemaVersion":1,"slug":"1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib","episode":1,"guid":"24a91250-690d-439e-aa43-84dec2ddff5f","episodeTitle":"The State of AI: Open-Source Models & Enterprise Trust | May Habib","publishedAt":"2024-11-06","segmentIndex":138,"time":"48:07","seconds":2887,"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","text":"That is a wrap for our first episode of Chain of Thought. We'll be back every Wednesday with more insights and conversations from the world of AI. So make sure to like and follow the show wherever you get your podcasts. Don't forget to check out Galileo's YouTube channel where you can watch every episode as well as events like Productionized. Plus, we'd love to hear your thoughts on the show. Connect with us on Twitter or LinkedIn at run Galileo. Let us know what you think. Thanks for listening, everyone.","canonicalUrl":"https://chainofthought.show/podcast/1-the-state-of-ai-open-source-models-and-enterprise-trust-may-habib/#t-138","usage":{"attribution":"Chain of Thought — chainofthought.show","canonical":"Every record carries canonicalUrl. Cite that page, not this endpoint: it is the authoritative rendering and the one that gets corrected.","transcripts":"Machine-generated (ASR), with entity corrections applied during sync. Transcripts may contain errors; verify quotations against the recording.","license":"CC-BY-4.0","audio":"Episode audio and video are not licensed: all rights reserved. The audio and video URLs are links only; link to the episode page instead of copying the media.","redistribution":"Transcript text and episode metadata are licensed CC BY 4.0 and published as a dataset at https://huggingface.co/datasets/conorbronsdon/chain-of-thought-podcast-transcripts. Credit Chain of Thought (chainofthought.show) and link the episode page."}}